MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Not Sold on Francis Ngannou’s Star Status, Artur Beterbiev vs. Dmitry Bivol and UFC 310 Fight Announcements

Episode Date: October 15, 2024

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin debate the scorecards in the boxing match between Artur Beterbiev vs. Dmitry Bivol, Belal Muhammad’s chances to hand Shavkat Rakhmonov his first and Francis Ngannou finally making his PFL debut but can he sell pay-per-views? All this and more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, we are back in a... We are back for the first time in a while, at least MMA while, in a Francis and Gunnew fight week. Oh, yeah, that's been a long while, that hasn't it? For MMA, anyway, it's not boxing, but MMA has been like three years, almost three years. It's been a while.

Yeah, you took me off guard on that. I did. I've been gone for a couple weeks. And we were going with that, but no, the Francis Ingano coming back to MMA, which is not always has been a while, but it's been, is very unexpected, right? Both of us had talked about this before. We did not expect this to be happening. Yeah, we're going to get into that a little bit later, obviously with the PFL pay-per-view

this weekend and some big fight announcements that were made over the weekend with Bilal Muhammad's first title of defense coming up at UFC 310. But I want to kick things off, Matt, because, you know, over the weekend. There was a UFC fight. Brandon Roy Vaugh got a win over Tussu O'Iridae ended up being a pretty good fight. The BKFC event was crazy. Main event, Connor McGregor doubled their pay, which I thought was cool. I thought that's a cool gesture. The fight was incredible. It was a freaking battle. And he's just like, we're doubling your pay. I was like, all right, that's pretty cool, Connor. But I think the one that kind of,

obviously the fight that I think everyone was watching if you are a combat sportsman was the boxing match between Dimitri Bivel and Arter Bettev, which we've talked on this show many times. about Archer. That's one of your guys. You actually turned me on to him because like I've said many times, I'm not a massive boxing guy. You are. So let me just ask you, Matt. A, what did you think of the fight? And B, how did you score it?

Both really good questions. So first off, what I think of the fight? It was an absolute master class by both guys. It was just an amazing, highly skilled fight. You know, not necessarily the most exciting fight. If you didn't know the stakes that were on the line, you know, you wouldn't, if it's like

an undercard or something, you know, you wouldn't be excited to be watching that fight, but knowing how highly skilled they are, knowing the stakes, particularly Archer's knockout power, you know, knowing those stakes. That kept it interesting, right? And how closely contested every second of that fight was kept it pretty interesting. But there wasn't a whole lot of like exciting action, right? Like there wasn't a whole lot of big exchanges, big punches and things like that. I scored the fight pretty heavily for Bevo. You know, I didn't even feel like it was that close when I'm watching the fight. I thought Bevaux had this clearly in the bag. I thought he more or less, I wouldn't go as far as saying he outclass better B.

But he put it on a clinic. Like he really showed he was just simply the better boxer. With that said, though, scoring it for a better BF, I also don't hate that. Even the 116, 112, which I know is very controversial. Everybody said, oh, it was way closer. Even that score card, I don't necessarily hate it, though. because all that tells me is what they scored,

what their scoring criteria was, was just different. Like I scored it for the guy who hit and didn't get hit. They scored it more, I'm guessing, at least, on aggression, pressure, ring control, and maybe volume of strikes thrown. Because it better be able to throw more strikes. And he did control the octagon,

not the octagon, right? The ring. he controlled the ring very he pushed bevo back most of the fight and landed some heavy shots i just don't think he landed very many clean shots and i think a lot of them i have a lot of questions as i usually do about the compu box stats about how clean those shots actually were that were counted you know because i know his percentage was a lot lower but i think it was probably even lower than what they counted i don't think he landed them that clean And we can talk more about the fight too, though.

Got more thoughts about it. But let's go with you on how you felt about those same two questions. So I actually thought it was an incredible fight. I thought skill-wise, it was a, as you said, a master class. It was really, I thought it was a really good fight? Was it, you know, was it ultra exciting? Was it one of those fights where it was like three knockdowns and, you know, crazy comeback or anything like that? No.

but I don't necessarily expect that in every single boxing match, but I thought it was incredibly good. I scored her for Bivel as well. I actually had a little closer than most people did. I had it within a round or two. I think I had them up two rounds. I didn't keep numbers because I was actually writing about the fight, but I think I had him up two rounds at the end.

So I think that 114, 114 scorecard was closer to where I would have been. Like I would have been like one, I'm just minusing the numbers here. I would have been maybe like 115, 113 or whatever, like within two rounds. But kind of like you, I didn't really think it was, I didn't really think it was a robbery. Like, people are freaking out and saying this is a complete robbery. Again, I think it just depends on what you're watching. And even if you just take away the aggression, because Artur-Betterb was walking him down the entire time. That's his style.

But as you said, like the bigger punches were being thrown and connected by Betterbib. But where he was connecting them is the problem. He was connecting a lot of them on the gloves, on the arms. But that impact still matters. You see a guy take a step back. You see a guy kind of react to it. And I think that's my opinion. I think that's what they're judging on.

Now, I've said this for many, many years for MMA, and I think I stand by for boxing as well. I think judging should be done backstage with TVs and no noise. Because when you're ringside or cage side, I've been for a million U.O.C. It is hard sometimes to tell what lands and what doesn't land when you got a bad angle. There's been many a fight where a guy's coming towards me and I see swing and I'm like, oh my God, he's got him.

You watch the replay. He didn't land a single shot, but because he's coming towards me and I see the guy swinging, the guy backing up, it looks like he's hitting him. I know that sounds weird, but like those are the things I think about when I see kind of weird scorecards like that. So I don't think it was a robbery. I think better we have had his moments in there. He did.

I think he was throwing the heavier shots. Did he land the heavier shots? As you said, I don't know. I think a lot of those were off the arms, you know, blocked. But again, because Bivel's reacting, they're like, oh, he got hit, even though he really didn't get damaged. So, yeah, I'm kind of with you. I thought Bivel won, but again, I don't think it was necessarily a robbery. I just wish that was the case with the judging.

I wish the judges were able to just watch this from a TV angle, and I think you'd be able to better tell where the punches were landing or not landing. and I'm not excusing them. I'm just saying, like, I understand sometimes it's tough when you're their ring side to see exactly what's actually connecting or not. So, yeah, I mean, I hope they run it back. I know they already talked about it. That was pretty much the conversation right after.

And so I do hope they run it back. I guess that's the point of having three judges, right? So you have one from each different angle. I think that's at least one of the concepts of it because they should be sitting at different angles, right? They're not all just sitting in one. spot, right? Yeah, exactly, exactly.

And I also know, like, and I do know, like, I've seen judges at least in and you have C-vites. I've seen them look up at the screen before. Like, there are screens all over the place. You know what I mean, now I don't know what the setup was in Saudi Arabia. I don't know how, like, accessible that was where they were sitting. But, again, I don't think it was a robbery. I think people, a lot of people were saying this is a robbery.

I don't think it was a robbery. I think it was close. And I think there's a couple of rounds where it's like, what are you scoring? Are you scoring better be able to, walking forward? throwing a bunch of punches landing a couple? Are you judging it on better footwork and movement from Bivel and actually landing the cleaner shots, even though he wasn't technically doing a lot of damage?

He was kind of picking and pointing and jabbing. I don't know. Like I said, that's the weird thing about, you know, it's kind of subjective a little bit in boxing. So, yeah, again, I scored it for Bivel, but I don't think it was a robbery. I didn't freak out. I'd be like, oh, my God, this is the most egregious scoring ever.

Yeah, yeah. And here's my question for you and for anyone, you know, who does say it was really close, right? So if you were to score it on aggression, right, then you would probably say, okay, that's a robbery or the right person won, and he probably should have won bigger, like the 160 and 112. If you score it more on the boxing skill and the movement and the ability to hit and not get hit, you know, as a boxer, then you would call it a robbery, you know, from Bevold.

but the only thing I've really heard is just that some people saying it was really close or there was a robbery for Brevol. If you're going to score it on aggression, then it wasn't really close, right? Better B.F. was the aggressor. Yeah. Like Bevold had a lot of moments. I think he had the bigger moments. I think he probably hurt Better B.F more than Better B.F hurt him, actually,

which was very surprising. Better Biaf just doesn't show it as much. I think Bevaux showed it when he got hit. Even, you know, blocking and, you know, while his glove getting hit, I think he showed it bigger than Better Biaf did when he got hit square on the jaw. 100%.

There were a couple of times where he got clocked and I'm just like, what kind of chin does this guy have? Like he would just like, it would barely flinch and he'd move forward. And I was like, Jesus Christ. And then Better Biav hits like a freaking truck. So like I said, even if you hit him, even if you hit on the gloves, you're going to, like, fall back of step just because he hit so hard. So I think that's part of it.

Like I said, I didn't really think it was as bad as everyone made it out to me. It was a close fight. It was a good fight. You know, I was super impressed by Bevall's ability to – what's that? That's sort of my question. If you're going to say it wasn't that bad, I'm not criticized or hating on it here. But if you're going to say it wasn't that bad, then, you know, there's two ways to score it, right? either for Better Beavs aggression or for Bevvvvv's skill and movement, right?

It's kind of a simple way to say what I've just been saying. If you score it for Bevold, then it was that bad, and it was a robbery, which is what a lot of people are saying. If you're scoring it for the aggression, then it really shouldn't even have been as close as it was because Better Beav was clearly the aggressor, you know, for a 116, 112, at least. Yeah, I mean, I get what you're saying. I just, I think my scoring, I think the way the fight played out was much closer to the

draw, which I know that's not the result anyone wanted to end in a draw. But I think if I was going to say one score card, I agree with more, it would be the draw. Like, I didn't score it 116, 112. I definitely didn't score in four rounds ahead. I definitely didn't do that. I was like a round or two ahead for Bival is how I scored it. So again, I don't know what the numbers are, but like two rounds difference. But a couple of those rounds were close.

There were a couple of rounds where Bivol would start strong and then Berv would come back late and then the flip-flop would happen where a better Biav would be control, control, control, and then the last minute Bivol kind of took over. It's just, it's one of those things where it was just, it was a back and forth close fight. And in all honesty, like I'm not trying to hedge my bets here, but I think I think out of those three scorecards that were given, I would be happier with the draw than I would be with the 1-16-1-12 because it was a close fight. there were a couple of close rounds. So, yeah, it's, it's, again, it's the thing that sucks about it. And I know this is like, probably doesn't even matter to them that much. But like, one of these guys now doesn't have an undefeated record because of what could be questionable scoring. And, you know, they'll run it back and hopefully they'll run it back.

And, you know, we'll see it again. Maybe we'll get a more definitive answer this time. I mean, that's the first time better be ever been to a decision, which was wild. He's, you know, 20 wins, 20 knockouts, which is a wild. wild stat. So hopefully they'll run it back. It, you know, it does suck for Beval, like his undefeated record's gone. And now he's got to depend on, you know, Turkey Al-Shake coming through with another,

you know, $100 million or whatever to put it back together again. But, yeah, again, I know there's a good fight, though. Yeah, I mean, they definitely got to do a rematch on this. I mean, I think it was a pretty big fight. A lot of people, at least that I know have been talking about it, even though the people that I know are always talking about fights. So pretty standard. but it definitely needs to be run back.

And the interesting thing is if they run this fight back, which I think they will, I'm going to favor a better be of. You know, I think he kind of figured Bevolo out throughout that fight. And, you know, Bevold's a very difficult guy to figure out. And it felt to me like he kind of figured out his rhythm there towards the end. I didn't feel like it was Bevold gassing or cruising. I felt like Better Beavis, which was the most of, which was the most of, surprising thing about the whole fight was that

Bevol, I think, landed the bigger punches, probably hurt Better B.F more than Better B.V. Hurt Bv and Better B.V. Bvok's with Bvv better than I thought Better B'Veev could box with Bavol. Yeah. Yeah, it was, like I said, I thought it was

a really good fight. I didn't think it was, you know, I thought it was really, really good boxing all the way around. And actually, you know, kind of to your point, like we, and I know that's different, different guys, different styles. Of course but the thing with Deonté Wilder was forever like he had to land the knockout blow he would lose nine rounds and come out and knock you out in the tent that was just how he did it better

beev knocks out everybody and the fact that he actually went out there and boxed with demetri biville and won a lot of those exchanges won a lot of those rounds that was shocking because they kept saying on the broadcast like he's got he wants the knockout he's got the knockout I was like dude he doesn't he's doing pretty good without getting the knockout I was like really impressed by that now I know again different style how many you know how many times did you ever watch you know, Deonté Wilder went a fight when he didn't knock a guy out. Like, that was pretty much what he had to have.

I was super impressed. The better be up, didn't get it, and still found a way. Well, that's why I think I would probably favor him in the rematch because it didn't look to me like he was throwing. I mean, he's just as sledgehammers for fists anyway. So, you know, he doesn't always look like he's throwing that hard and still, you know, knocks people's brains loose. But it didn't look to me.

It looked to me like he was boxing with him. looking to land those good shots. And again, he started finding success there towards the end. Yeah. Yeah, like I said. And I hope they're running back, as you said. I mean, you know deeper in these divisions. Is there anyone else that would even be in line to fight either one of them at this point?

Or is a rematch pretty much a foregone conclusion? I mean, they'll be, if they don't do a rematch, they'll have a mandatory challenger. So nobody that's like, nobody of like any big name value or anything. No one that comes up. top of my head. You know, the thing is that those aren't deep divisions, the 175, like it's not commonly known as one of the deeper divisions, right?

You know, once you get above like the 168, that's kind of, you know, boxing, it's at mid-range is what it gets all the love, right? Anywhere from about 140 to about 168, 142 to 168. That's where all the love is. All the little guys, you know, we have anyway right now, it's the only guy we even know of, right? even heard of the multiple champions that he's knocked out, right? You never even heard these guys' names, Stephen Fulton. Like, no one heard his name until he fought in a way.

You know, and then you got like the cruiser weights, which, you know, who even knows who those guys are, you know, but then, of course, when you get up to heavyweight, that's where the biggest names are. Yeah, well, that's coming in December, and I'm looking forward to Usik Fury, too. That's a good one. You know, I'm an Ussick guy.

I like Alexander. I like Alexander Eustick a lot, and I was happy to see him get his win, and I think this fight's going to be even more a lot of side in the rematch. I don't think it's going to be that close personally. I think he knows what he has to deal with with Fury now, and I just, I think this is like the end of Fury's run. Like I think this is going to be it, but I look forward to that. That's December.

And like I said, man, I know people out, a lot of people, I'm not even getting into the politics side of them. I'm not getting anything else, and I understand at one point or another, people, everyone's going to say the bubble's going to burst on the money. but for now, man, Turkey Alshake, keep putting on the fights we want to see. That's all I could say. Yeah, just keep putting them on and we don't care if you lose money. Dude, I mean, listen, let's be honest.

You said, like, these are not deep divisions, but without this, without that guy getting involved, would we have ever seen Bivel versus the better be ever? There's probably a good shot we wouldn't have. So I'm glad we're getting the fights. Yeah, absolutely. And there's a lot big fights to make out there. There's a lot of great fights. So hopefully they keep his Riaz's.

season going and you know whatever that even means but yeah let's go the odd season and I'm like what is that and then I even Googled it and I was like I still don't know what it is yeah I think it's like I think it's like a yearly celebration is all I've ever got out of it it's a yearly celebration and they turned it into like a sports and entertainment festival now and so I think I don't know I'm not you know I'm not well versed and I just know that Turkey Al-Shakes got to bottomless pockets, and he's spending a whole lot of money to make the fights we want to see. So I'll take it. Yeah, well, I'm ready to see it, bro.

There's so many good fights out there, especially at the lower divisions. Yeah, we'll see. It's going to be interesting next year or so, but I know you're excited for Usik Fury, too. We talked about that one a lot. That's coming up in December. I'm super excited about that one, so. I'm just glad we're talking about boxing, and not just M.A. I know.

I know the fight you're most looking forward to is Jake Paul Mike Tyson, though. be honest. I know that's the one you're really excited about. Of course, but maybe next we'll end up talking about Moytai some, too. You never know. You never know what's going to happen. Speaking of MMA, of course, before we get to PFL, a couple big fights announced over the weekend. UFC 310, Bilal Muhammad, officially backed defending his title against Shavkat, Rehmanov, and Kai Asakura, rising guy, making his debut against Alessandre Pantosia in a title fight. Very rare. Do you see a guy make his debut in a title fight?

I know a lot of people The first time that This is the third time that this has happened But the first two times Were when they bought Strike Force Right, it's Gilbert Melendez And I think Daniel Corman Or no, Ronda Rousie

Oh yeah, Ronda Rousie came in Yeah, Ronor Rousie came in That's right, that's right, yeah Look at you pulling the stats on there It's rare, doesn't happen very often And this is, as you said, this is even more rare me pulling the stats or the or the or the championship thing

um interesting though i i'm not i'm not against it i mean to be honest pantosia doesn't really have an opponent right now like no one really standing out brandon royval went over the weekend he already beat brander royval pretty handily it wasn't like a super close fight you got emir albazi fighting brandon marino in november but you know how long are you going to make pantosia just sit and wait oscar is an interesting name he's dangerous, so why not? Like, why not throw it in there? The only other option out there

that I could think of was Carre France. And, you know, he's coming off one win, two losses before that. So it's like, that's a, you know, so he needs to fight Royval, right? Like, that's the fight to make. And then the winner, you know, maybe Royval gets a rematch or Kai Karah

moves up. Yeah, and if Amir al-Bazi wins, then I think he's the guy, but he's been out for every year with injury and things like that. You can't put him. I understand not putting him right into a title fight so yeah I mean this is fine I mean and I don't know how much you've seen Osloor a fight I've seen him fight a few times I'm not

gonna sit here and say I've studied the guy's entire career but I watched him fight nasty power good striker so could be interesting yeah you know I've seen the highlight of him what knocking out I believe it's a body shot to Juan Archiletta was it a body shot it was a yeah I think it was

a knee and a body shot I think is what he got him with yeah yeah I seen the highlight that was I never even heard his name until that yeah and archela is good. I mean, and that's a bigger weight class, too. That's going up in Bantaway. That's not even flyweight.

So, yeah, he beat, he beat Horaguchi as a winner of Horaguchi as a winner of Manel cop. So he's got some wins. I mean, he's a good fighter. It's just so rare we see a guy come in on day one and get a title fight. But good for him. Like I said, it's an interesting matchup. And, you know, I mean, you can't put Pantoja on the sideline forever, just waiting

for somebody to come out. Yeah. And it's going to be interesting because, I think if you ask you just about anything, fighter like when you come to the UFC like it's just a different experience different world different the media obligations are different the attention that you're getting is different and you know to come in and do that uh into a championship bout day one you know like i i don't know if i ask cares five five rounds before so you know this is this could be a completely different experience and fighting a guy like pantosia that's a lot that's a big ask i think yeah are they i this is

This is terrible that I don't know this because I watch Risen fights. They still do. I think they still do like the 10 minute round thing in Risen, don't they? Kind of like the old pride rules where they do like one, five minute and two, 10 minute rounds or something weird. Like I think you're right about that. Like they don't do like five, five minute rounds. So yeah, that's another

thing because he was a champion over there, but they have different round systems over there. So it's not just like a 25 minute fight. So that's a good point as well. Something different. And you said like 17 Mobile Arena, day one, different crowd. You know what the crowds of Japan are like. That's way different than a crowd America. So yeah, it's interesting. So, but I'm for it. Like I said, I'm for it.

Is it not just the crowd like why you're fighting, but the crowd before you're fighting when you're walking in there. And, you know, if a bunch of Brazilians show up, you know, he's probably not experienced the resentment that he's going to get from them. I mean, it's just, I just feel like he's going to be a much different experience than anything he's ever had before. And he's got to fight Pantosia, who's been on a pretty good tear lately, you know, looking great as a champion. So it's a pretty big ask if you ask me. It is. And I'm not going to lie to you.

I'm favoring Pantosia. I think he's on a run right now. And I don't know that I'd pick anyone to beat him right now outside of like just someone pulling off a complete upset. But, you know, it's fun. It's something different. Like I said, at least get a different guy in there and try to, you know, who knows? Maybe Ossacor pulls off a huge knockout and gets the win.

You never know. The other one, Below and Shavkat, I think we all kind of saw this. coming. I think we all knew it wasn't going to be Usman. Usman's had a couple losses in a row. He's been out for a while. Shabkat's undefeated, 100% finishing rate. I think the only thing that bothers me is like everyone is just anointing Shavkat already, like saying, oh, here's the champ. He's the new champ. And I'm like, he's good. He is very, very good. But I just, the disrespectful out, man, it drives me wild. Like this guy has on like a 10-fight unbeaten streak, taken out way more top five contenders than Shafcat has. Shepkat has. Shepkat doesn't even

have a winner of our top five opponents. Now, I'm not saying he's not good. I think he's very good. Can he win this fight? Absolutely can win this fight. But I just, the disrespect to Bilau, man, it drives me wild. Like, that guy didn't get here by accident. No, that's a great point.

But like, Bilal is definitely the most underrated guy champion that I think we've ever seen. I don't know. Maybe there's a, maybe Matt Sarah will be, I don't know. But, you know, it's a while since we've had a guy this underrated. and, you know, to be fair, you know, I like Belaw as a person and as a fighter, but, you know, look, you know, he doesn't have finishes, right? Like, he wins by decision. He doesn't win in a spectacular fashion. He grinds out slow, more or less boring victories.

And when they're putting Shavka in there, you know, that's, it seems from the outside looking in, like, that's going to be one. one of the tougher ways to beat Shavcott, right? That's just not the kind of, I don't know, the type of matchup that you look for to beat Shavkat, right? I mean, I think he's beatable just like anybody, but, you know, slow grinding victory on Shavkat. It's a tough one. I think it's interesting because I actually weirdly have more questions about Shavkat

than I do about Balau in this fight. Because Shabkat, the 100% finishing rate, super impressive. Never, you know, gone to, that's all impressive. Never had a five-round fight. Never even, only seen the third round twice in his entire career. Now, could he be the greatest five-round fighter of all time and already had the conditioning and willpower to go five rounds? Maybe.

But we don't know. And Bilal Muhammad is the Energizer Bunny. That guy does not run out of, you know, condition. If he can survive those first couple rounds, does it turn into like we saw with Hamzot? Where Hamzot was like a huge starter, he starts to peter out a little bit in that third round. and what's it going to look like in the fourth and fifth? So I think these are all, like, I actually have more questions about, like, even though I think Shabkat is as good as advertised, I still have more questions about him than I do about

Bilau. Because I know what Bilau is. And as you said, I don't care, exciting, y'all, whatever. I know what to expect out of Balow Muhammad. I can't say 100% for sure what I expect out of Shabkat in a five-round title fight. Personally, I wanted to see him get one more, like, good win and like a main event just to see, like, does he go to a third round? because that fight with Jeff Neal was pretty wild getting in that third round when he finally got that submission.

He got hit some time. He got hit a bunch. And I don't know. Like I said, I think Shafat's great. I'm just saying that, like, I don't think we can just hand him the title already and say, here you go, man, reign this champion. I don't think he's just going to, I don't think anyone's just going to roll through Bilal Muhammad at this point. Well, when was the last time Belaw Muhammad was a favorite in a fight anyway, right?

Yeah, I think it's pretty standard. almost every fight he gets into, like he's probably going to be the underdog, right? We always think he's going to lose because he doesn't do anything spectacular. He doesn't have the Wonderboy Flash or the, you know, Usband wrestling or the, you know, you know, what all, like most guys when they get to that championship level,

they got something where you're like, you know, dude, he's got that thing that you just can't stop. And we just haven't really seen that with Ball, except maybe his gas tank. but most guys, you know, at that level, can also deal with that gas tank. So, excuse me. So, yeah, I think this is going to be an Uber interesting fight if you ask me. No, I like it.

I like the matchup. And also credit to Blau, man, fought in July, fighting in December, didn't shy away from the tough fight, didn't start calling out Colby or Connor trying to get some other fight to get a money fight. Listen, say what you will. I'm not dogging the guy, but say what you will. like, you know, this has happened plenty of times where guys went a belt, and then suddenly they're like, give me, I know people are going to get mad. I say this.

Give me Cheeto Vera. I understand Sean O'Malley had a loss to Cheeto Vera, but come on now. Cheeto is not up to the next weight class. Yeah, all these other, yeah. Credit to Bilal, man. He's taking on the number one guy, the toughest guy, the guy that everyone's already saying going to be a champion, the guy he's going to be a massive favorite, Chapcat, meaning he's going to be a big favorite.

He's walking right in the fireman, credit to him. Like he's not sitting there saying he never. He never wants to give me Colby, give me this, give me that. I want that. No, he's like, I'll take Shafkat, sure. So credit to Bilau, man. He's doing what we all kind of wish more guys would do. And they're like, just give me the next guy.

And then, well, you know, when you get three or four title defenses, then you start calling for more weight classes and superfights and stuff like that. You know, I think it kind of sucks, too, is it, Bala goes out. Blah, just, I don't know, he's got the weirdest kind of run. And you have, like, he's always the under a doctor. He goes out there and beats Shavcott. You know what everybody's going to be saying on Monday. Oh, Shopkat wasn't ready yet.

Like, Belaw just has the hardest time getting credit. And me and you've talked about it before, we're like, bro, give the motherfucker credit. Like, he's earned it. I mean, he's won some big fights. What did you say, 10-fight win streak? I mean, come on. Give the guy credit.

But that's going to be what we hear if he goes out and beats Shafka. Like I said, I think Shavka would be the favorite. Yeah, he is the favorite. The odds already came out. He's like a two to one, two to three to one favorite. He's a pretty heavy favorite. Yeah, but you're right. If Shabkat loses, he loses a 49-46 decision,

Ballow, grinds him into the mat and tires him out, and he just can't get to finish. Monday morning, the narrative was going to be Shabat was overrated. He was never as good as we thought he was. He never went five. It's going to totally shift. He just wasn't ready. He should have got a top five-round fight first, right?

He just wasn't ready. Yeah, it drives me nuts too Because that's the nature of this beast And I get it I understand it I just hate it Because it's like dude What does he have to do

Like everyone He was not a lot of people Picked him to beat Leon There were not a lot of people picking him to beat Leon I did I thought he was going to be Leon But he goes out there Dominates you know

Four out of five rounds Wins the title And then people are like Oh well Leon Didn't look great Leon wasn't that I'm like come on Give the guys do man

Come on like And he keeps getting better too If you look at the difference It's like I didn't pick him against Leon based off of the first Leon fight, whereas I got poked and it got cut short. He didn't show me anything and that fight to show that he had a chance. Second of Leon fight, he said, fuck all that. I'm not doing what I did the first fight.

Changed his whole game up. Got far better than he did in the first fight. Like you can see the improvements. And good for him, you know, so I don't know what the limit is. I don't know what the ceiling is for below. Yeah. He might be higher than anybody who's giving credit for. Yeah, I mean, listen, and to his credit, if he beats Shavkat,

if he does go out in December beat Shafkat, he may have just beaten the toughest guy to fight him in the division. I don't want to discount Jack Delamadalina. I don't want to discount Kamar Usman getting back in there. I don't want to discount Ian Gary or any of those guys. But you could argue that he's facing his toughest potential competition on day one as a champion. Because after that, like you could look at the, I think Ian Gary is a very good fighter. But I think there is a path to be Ian Gary.

I think we've seen that. He is a very dynamic striker. What does he do when he's on his back for 10 minutes against Bilal Muhammad, the pace, things like that. Jack Del and Madalena, he was losing to Gilbert Burns for two-thirds of that fight. He caught him in the third round, credit for him getting to finish. But I think there's a path to victory there. Shavkat is the boogeyman.

That's the guy that no one supposedly wants to fight. If he gets through Shafkat, I'm not saying that Bilal's going to go on like this nine-fight, undefed his streak as champion. But I think Shavkat could legitimately be his. as tough as challenge because after Shafkat, if he gets through Shafkat, I don't know that there's going to be another guy that he could, that I wouldn't look at, say, that's definitely a fight Balau wins. This is one where I'm like, I don't know because Shavkat is that good.

But put him against any of those other guys I just mentioned. And I'd say, yeah, I think Below's got a pretty damn good chance of holding on to that title. The X dark horse in my opinion is going to be Sean Brady. And that's, I just seen he's booked a fight Ian Gary coming up. He's not, that's, that's fake news. That's fake news. Just to shut that out. Not happening, not happening.

Not real. That's fake. Yeah, that's fake. What the hell am I seeing? Yeah, no, you're not the only one. Trust me. I had a ton of people ask me today. And I was like, huh?

And I looked at it. No, it's not, it's not true. I mean, it could happen. Not saying it won't happen. I'm just saying it's not that right now. Like, it hasn't been that right now. So I do think if Sean Brady's able to get up to the title, I think that's probably one of the worst matchups for,

for Blahma. I mean, remember, Belal knocked him out, though. Belal knocked him out two years ago. So remember that one in Abu Dhabi. So, you know, I mean, it's just, I'm not saying he can't do it. I'm just saying like he's done it before. So he can't do it again. Yeah, yeah.

You know, but again, just matchup-wise, you know, you know, Sean's getting better too. You know, and I think he's learning more about himself as a fighter. I think he's growing as a fighter. So I just think matchup-wise, that's always going to be a tough matchup for him. He did it once. Does it mean he'll do it again? Yeah, we'll see.

But again, but I think because Sean, John got knocked out by Bilal. He's probably got to work a little harder to get to that rematch. You know what I mean? Like, I think he's, I think he's, I think, unfortunately, for Sean, because the way the first fight ended, he's probably going to have to win a couple more. You know, he's going to have to beat Neen Gary. He's going to have to beat Colby Covington.

Like, he's going to have to do probably a little bit more than, like, Shavkat did. Like, Shabkat didn't really have to go through, like, a laundry list of top guys. He just was a big finisher, and he beat Wonderboy. You know, good wins, but no one on that list really like, oh, man, he beat Usman. he beat the top three guy. He didn't do that yet. So, you know, Sean Brady might have to beat Ian Gary and he might have to beat Leon Edwards to get there. You know what I mean?

Like he's not going to have a little tougher path because he did have that fight with Balau and Balau. That's, you talk about Belowl's finishes. That's the one finish he had in the last couple years. He knocked out of Sean Brady. Yeah, I completely forgot all about that one. Yeah, but still, Sean Brady, it just stylistically, I think I picked Sean to win the first time, too. And I just think matchup-wise, I mean, that's just the type of guy. that is going to get Bilal problems in the future.

Stop picking against Bilau, man. Come on now. Just pick the guy. There's certain guys in the sport I do that too, where I'm like, I keep picking against him. They keep proving me wrong. I'm like, damn it. I'm like, keep picking against this guy.

I can't get it right. Yeah, well, you know what? I'm like 50-50 with him in Shavka right now because for that exact reason. You know, we know, like you said, there's a lot of unanswered questions about Shavka. We know who Bilal is. And we know, like, you're not going to be all easy.

Like, it's just not going to happen. Like, I don't care, you know, how good shop cut is. Like, you know, it's just not going to be an easy fight. Yeah, that's going to be interesting. Yeah, yeah, I look forward to it. Absolutely. So I mentioned the top of the show, of course, this weekend is finally the return of, is the return of Francis and Ghana.

Of course, there is a UFC card this weekend as well. No offense, not the biggest card in the world. I mean, the main event's pretty solid, Fluffy Hernandez against Michelle Paheda. It's a pretty fun fight, just not like a super high-ranked fight, but it's a fun fight. But, of course, I think all eyes are going to be on Saturday in Saudi Arabia when Francis deGano makes his a return. We had this question internally for an article that's going on on an MMA fighting. I want to kind of pose it to you as well, Matt, because Francis is the biggest free agent signing that PFL has ever had by a wide margin. He was UFC heavyweight champion when he left.

Of course, he did do the two boxing matches, had a real close fight with Tyson Fury, got absolutely demolished by Anthony Johnson. He's 38, and he's coming back to him and May for the first time since 2021, I believe. So it's been, or 22. So it's been about three years, two or three years. It's been a while. And that was January, like 2022. So it's been almost three years. How big is this moment for Francis and how big is this moment for the PFL?

Because you and I both know one thing that the UFC has never, and again, the UFC is a different animal. But the UFC never puts all their eggs in one basket. Connor, you'd think, is the one basket. But even that, they've moved on. Conor Ronda Rousey, same kind of thing. Like Rondo is the star. They found ways to move on from them. When you put that kind of investment into one athlete,

and I'm not saying they're wrong for it, by the way. Signing Francis was a good move. I agree with the move. But it's been that long. You've had him under contract for a year and a half, and he's just now fighting for you. How big is this moment for PFL and Francis in Gano? Because if he goes out there and loses,

and I'm not putting bad juju on the guy. I'm just saying, you go out there and lose to Hena Ferreira, that's definitely. There's no other way around that. Yeah, man, it's a, I'm surprised that we talked about it before. I'm surprised he came back to M.MA, period. And Hennon-Ferrera, it's not like, I mean, it's still a high-risk fight. Like, he's a gigantic son of a bitch.

Yeah. Like, he's a, how tall is he? I think six, six, six, six eight, I think six eight is how tall he is? Yeah, I mean, he's a gigantic guy. you don't have to hit that hard when you're 6 foot 8 and you know 260 pounds or whatever right it's still a risky fight for francis and gano he's coming off a knockout with from anthony joshua sometimes that changes a fighter you know and he's coming back to m m.a and that's just talking about you know you know the the prospects of fighting everything but when you're talking about

the actual PFL and having Francis. I think it's a tough one, man, because how many people actually care? I mean, we all watch Francis fight Tyson Fury. A lot of us watch them fight Anthony Joshua. How many people are realistically going to buy a pay-per-view to watch them fight Henan Ferreira? I mean, that to me, and I know this is going to get pushback from PFL, because I like PFL, but the problem they have is they have no one. I know.

They're going to say, oh, Henan-Ferera's number or whatever. he's not. Heine Ferre is a good prospect. Yeah. But it's not Cyril Gahn. It's not John Jones. It's not Tom Aspinall. It's not Alexander Volkov.

It's not Curtis Blades. It's not established guys that have a name and you know how good they are. Is Hain and Frere good? Yes. Is he a legitimate prospect? Absolutely. Is he a top five guy in the world? No, he's not.

And I don't care how he's trying to sell it to me. He's not. Francis is in careful. can crushing vote at this point. And that's what he needs to do. Like, he's getting paid a whole lot of money to go out there and knock the absolute piss out of every guy the PFL throws at him. And let's be honest, that list is not deep. It is not, I was looking at the heavyweight roster yesterday. I was like, like, man, if he knocks Ah, he knows how he knocks out of Hainan? Who the hell is he fight now? Are they going to throw him in there with Bader? You know, whatever. I like, I like, I like, Ryan Bader, but, like,

is that really going to be a compelling fight? People are going to want to pay work? Because I know, I don't know how much they're paying Francis and Gano, but they're paying Francis and Gano a whole lot of money. You got to get a return on that investment. And the way you get a return on investment is get people to buy the fights. Are people going to pay to fight, as you said, are people going to pay to watch him fight Dennis Goldsoff? Do you even know who Dennis Goldsoff is, I'm assuming probably not. Do you, like Oleg Popoff is the other guy fighting in the PFL finals this year? Do you know who Oleg Popoff is?

Because I guarantee him most people don't. Like, so, yeah, like, even now you're not wrong. Like, who's going to, who's, like, who's clamoring to put down $50 to watch Francis, right? Like, I think there's a curiosity factor there because it's Francis. But the fact is, like, we love Francis. Like I said, we all watch them fight Tyson Fury, a lot, watched him fight Anthony Joshua. He's not that big of a star. Right?

We watched him fight Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury because of him fighting those guys, right? he's not a Connor McGregor where we're just going to watch it no matter who he fights. And even, I don't know, even if Connor fought, you know, some lower level guy, like there would be a drop-off in paper views, right? I mean, he's got to have a B-side also that's a B-side. Francis is fighting a D-side here. It's not a B-side, right? It's a D-side.

And Francis just isn't big enough of an A-side to draw. you know, again, we don't know how much he's getting paid, but, you know, it fits the amounts that we would guess. It's, you know, it's not going to cover his expense, I don't think. I don't think it's come close to that. I think this is, there's no way. If he's getting paid, I mean, he guaranteed his opponent getting paid $2 million. If he's the opponent's getting $2 million, you know he's getting $8,000, probably $8 million.

I mean, that's a lot of pay-per-views you got to sell to cover $10 million just for those two guys. Like, that's just for the main event. You're not talking about the rest of the card. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think he's covering that. I could go to my gym this week or, you know, you walk into a gym. You know, I think we're going to go up to a strong style this week. Ask everybody in there who's ordering the Francis Ngano pay-per-view.

Who's having the party where we're all going to go watch the fight with Francis and Gato? You're not going to get anybody, you're not going to get a lot of people getting excited about that, dropping their 50 bucks and buying pizza and shit. Yeah. I mean, you're absolutely, no, you're absolutely right because when Francis was in the UFC,

like his biggest pay-per-view, I think, was the Steepay rematch. And I think, I don't know the exact numbers, but I heard it was around 300,000 buys. Now, that's not terrible, but that's not, that's not Connor. That's not Rhonda. That's not, you know, Adasanya. That's not one of those guys.

if Francis fought John Jones, that's a massive fight, but that's also because it's John Jones. You know what I mean? Like you said, like Anthony Joshua is a massive star in boxing. Why do you think there was like General Weeping in England when he got knocked out by Dubois? Because Anthony Joshua is a star. That's tough when you lose a star. Tyson Fury is a star in his own right. And there was a curiosity factor of, you know, the cross.

and all that. That, that played a part in that. But I mean, yeah, I mean, Francis and Ghanu against Jarsina Rosenstrike, wouldn't that happen? Was anyone like, man, I want to pay my pay-per-view money to watch that fight. It lasted 12 seconds or whatever. But, like, it, Francis is not, Francis is not Connor. Francis is not Adisania. He doesn't have that about him. And also, maybe I'm wrong about this, Matt. Maybe I'm thinking, maybe I'm thinking too much about this, but when you plunk down $50 or $60 or whatever for a pay-per-view, I assume you want to get like a wholly entertaining show. And there are some really good fights in the undercard.

AJ McKeepal-Hugh is a good fight. We're going to talk in a second about Chris Seiborg. Some other good fights in this card, Johnny Ebelin and Fabian Edwards, whatever. But the main event is always what sells, right? Like, that's what you're really buying it for. And Francis's fights have generally gone one or two ways. Either he nukes the guy early or ends up being kind of a weird five-round fight like he had against Cyril Ghan like he had against

Derek Lewis. So I mean, I'm just saying like are you going to plunk down your money thinking I want to watch Francis Newk Heenan Frere, some guy I've never heard of at 18 seconds? Is that worth my $50 or do I want to just wait for it to pop up on Twitter 20 minutes later and watch it there?

Yeah, I think that a lot of these promoters, they need to understand that because there's like we're all deeply entrenched in the world of M.A. So they're big stars to us right? Particularly because we have like massive respect for them. Like we have massive respect for Francis Ingano,

what he's done and who he is. But if you're a promoter selling a paper view, I think you have to step back and look at the reality of what the mainstream, like mainstream view on a guy is, right? Like Connor crossed the bridge. He hit the mainstream. Ronda crossed the bridge.

Randy Couture even crossed the bridge somewhat. Chuck Liddell somewhat. I love Francis and Gano. I'll do respect. He ain't crossed the bridge. I can't go down to the bar right now and talk to someone about Francis and Gano and they know who he is.

Just the regular, you know, whatever fucking Irish pub down the street or whatever, right? Some drunk dudes sitting on the bar store. Hey, bro, you're getting, what do you think about Francis this weekend? You're like, who? What? You know, but I could go say, you know, Connor, right?

I could just say the name. Hey, what do you think about? Connor as a fighter and they'd be like I wish I'm if I would have started back in that day I would have fought you know one of those that's just the reality of the situation yeah I mean you're absolutely right I mean and and like I said this isn't a this is a knock on Francis it's just like and also I know PFL's like PFL doesn't have the promotional machine to put behind him the way the UFC does like the UFC would have been promoting Francis this entire time they would have been putting him on 307 in Utah.

They would have been putting him on Doche UFC. Francis is back. He's fighting. Blah, blah, blah. They would have been building it up already. You don't have that promotional machine. You just don't. And I know people like to argue.

UFC is bigger. Yeah, UFC is bigger. It is. It's just bigger. And they can make you a bigger star than what you might think you are. I just, like I said, I'm not shitting on it, by the way. I hope Francis has all the success in the world. I root for him to make $100 million for his next 10 fights.

but the reality is he's not been a really big start at this point he's fighting a guy that no one knows like it or not sorry people don't know hana ferrera and there's a world where he gets nuked in this fight i mean you mentioned the anthony joshua he didn't get knocked down and got a 10 count he got absolutely demolished

by anthony he got knocked down the first time then he got absolutely waylaid the second time like one of those scary knockouts we were like, is he going to get up? Like, oh, shit. Like, you know what I'm talking about. And some guys, and he's 38, some guys never come back from that the same. We've seen it.

I talk about all the time. Remember, Roy Nelson for years had the greatest chin ever. He got cracked by Mark Hunt that first time, and he never had the same chin again. Because it just takes that one. Yeah, and on top of that, you're fighting a 6-8 fucking gigantic guy, you know, the dude doesn't have to hit you that hard. Like even if Francis isn't already Cheney.

Yeah. Like you're fighting a fucking giant. Yeah, I don't even know Hennon's record. Like, I've never even seen the guy fight. I just know who he is. So I don't even know if he's a knockout guy or a jit-to guy or what even is.

But that's a lot of power. It's heavyweight. So it doesn't matter, right? It's a big-ass heavyweight. Yeah, I mean, look, we saw, we saw Junior DeSantis and Kane Velasquez fight three times. And two out of the three times,

Kane Velasquez absolutely mauled him, beating him from one side of the cage to the other. There were uncomfortable moments where we were like, please stop this. But that first fight, Junior clipped him a minute in and knocked out Kane Velasquez. That's the nature of that division. So is Hanna-Ferreira the most skilled heavyweight in the world?

Is he one of the top five guys in the world? No. But he's six foot eight, two hundred and sixty-five pounds, probably like 280 by the time the fight starts. He just needs to throw one and accidentally clip him. You know, like, When you watch his fight with Ryan Bader, I know Ryan Bader is not the biggest guy in the world, but he didn't like blast Ryan Bader.

He kind of clipped him and Bader just dropped because that's what heavyweights do. So there's a real world where Francis comes in thinking, I'm just going to torch this guy and he gets caught with one punch and he goes face first down on the canvas because that's heavyweight. That's the risk of this division. Like I said, I'm not, I certainly am not wishing any of that on Francis. I'm just saying like there's a reality where that could happen. Yeah, I'm the same as you.

I hope Francis wins. And I would personally, I'd like to see him get back to boxing and, you know, fight a, you know, fighting an up-and-comer or, I don't know, what do you call a journeyman, you know, fight someone that you should beat. You know, like he fought two guys that he absolutely shouldn't have a chance against. Yeah. And he had a close fight with Tyson, right? Like a lot of people think that he maybe even won that fight. okay like now you need to do what boxers do

like you're 0 and 2 now go fight a journeyman and you know build your way back up and let's let's see like how good of a fucking boxer you are you know yeah absolutely no what was coming back to him and may

I don't get the point of it you know I don't know if you know something contractual with PFL or you know if he's just trying to get a payday you know I don't I just don't really get what the point of it is yeah I mean it's got to be that because it can be about the competition right now

because there's just not competition. Like there's just not. I mean, and heavyweight has been a thin division. I mean, heavyweight's not deep in the UFC. Like, they're not,

it's not like, it's not like 20 deep in heavy weight. There's like, there's like seven or eight really good heavy weights to the UFC, and then it's a big drop-off between like eight and 12 or eight and 15 or whatever. So it's not like this division is like lightweight where you can just throw a stone and hit a good lightweight. That's not the case in heavyweight.

You're talking about seven, seven or eight really good heavyweight. across the entire sport and then maybe eight or nine like you know middle of the range guys and those seven or eight guys are all in the ufc minus francis and gano francis gano is one of those guys he absolutely is one of those guys but the other seven or whatever in the ufc so who are you going to fight like who are you going to fight yeah at least proven right the guys that are proven are in the ufc you never know who that one guy you know coming up out of nowhere might be too right, the next John Jones or the next Francis Ingano.

Yeah. And the only thing, the only thing PFL could have for in that case is they find some nasty, great prospect who's undefeated and he's the guy who beats Francis. And you can crown him the next big thing because, I mean, until you fight in the UFC and get it done in the UFC, like you're never the number one guy. Well, I mean, I've said this and I know that people don't like to hear this, but it's a reality. Like when I talked to Kayla Harrison when she came to the UFC,

and she didn't say a bad word about PFL, but she's like, it's just different. Like, it's just so different of how the attention and the recognition. And Michael Chandler said the same thing. When you go to the UFC, it is just a different animal. You have so much more exposure. So many people know you. Some people who see you. Perception is reality, Matt, and UFC is the biggest show in town.

I don't care. We, insiders, we could say this guy's great, that guy's great, but the attention from the general audiences on the UFC. So, yeah, it's a tough spot to be in. If you're a NFL, it's a tough spot to be in for Francis. Because, again, Francis wasn't Connor. Francis wasn't Ron. He wasn't the guy who was this massive star and they let him go.

I think maybe I'm wrong and people are going to get pissed that I say this. I think that's probably part of the reason UFC didn't like freak out that he left. They're like, all right, see you. You know, we got John Jones coming. coming back. We got Tom Aspinall where a year to two years ago, everyone's like John Jones, Francis, that's the only fight we need. Now the only fight anyone cares about John Jones and Tom Aspinall. People are even mentioning Francis anymore. Well, we kind of like, maybe Alex and John Jones now, right? Yeah, but you know what I'm saying? But that's what I'm saying.

Like, that's no one's even, no one's even mentioning Francis. They're like, Tom Aspinall's the guy. Tom Aspinall is the best everyone in the sport. And you may be right. But that's what, that's how quickly we forgot about Francis and God, yeah. It's just like, Yeah, I kind of think of it like, okay, if you got a guy, okay, every gym has these guys that can murder everybody, right? And then they get into a jiu-jitsu match or what type, whatever sport that is, MMA, and they get under the lights, they freeze, right? I think there's a decent amount of those that happen even in MMA,

where they do amazing outside the UFC. But then they get into the UFC, like Kayla was saying, like I've said, it's different. Like, can you perform under these lights, under the biggest stage with the most pressure, with the most people watching, with the most media? Can you do it now?

This is when it fucking counts. All that other shit is like a warm-up. That's like to get you ready for this big stage. The UFC is, when it comes to MMA, it's unfortunate in some respects, because I wish that there was more than just the UFC. but there is just the UFC.

Everything else is AAA, double A, right? There's the MLB and then there's AAA. And that's what the UFC is. It's the fucking big dog. An article is going to come out on. So our podcast drops on Tuesday. An article's going to come out on Monday.

So I'm talking about this. Technically, we're recording Sunday night. Do you know who, do you know who Reiner, Reneer, Derritter is, the one champion, the grappler, he was a two-division champion. You know what I'm talking about? He was a two-division champion in one champion, the middleweight and light heavyweight champion, really good fighter.

I like Ryan and Rainer a lot. He's a really good fighter. He told me, he's like, the attention I got signing with the UFC, signing, not fighting, not his first fight announced, signing. He's like, I got so much more attention than winning two titles in one championship. He's like, I was blown away. He's like, people cared. Like, oh, cool, great, great achievement.

you signed the UFC like holy shit you sign with the UFC oh my god he's like I was he's like I was shocked at how much like people thought it was cool that I was the two division champion people lost their shit that I signed with the UFC I'm paraphrasing here but that's like the reaction is different man he said that got way more attention than winning two belts in one championship that's reality you don't have to like it that's just the reality yeah and some guys handle that the right way right they keep their head on straight and they're able to deal with all that pressure and everything and then some people i think they let it get to their head and make them feel like they're bigger better than they are yeah um real quick before you get out here i do want to mention the other

massive fight on this car which is chris cyborg making her return against larissa pacheca who's been on an incredible run larissa's looked awesome chris now is 38 or 39 she hasn't fought in in about a year and a half. Her last fight was Katzangano, I think, maybe it was about a year ago in Bellator. Here's the question real quick, just before we get out of here, Matt. Is there a world where this is Chris Seibor's final fight, do we think? Because I think there's a real world where Larissa Pacheco wins this fight. Yeah, yeah.

I thought it was Chris Seibor's last fight, her last two or three fights, you know. You know, what a legend in terms of women's MMA. So when she decides to hang him up, you know, I think we're all. going to respect that decision and congratulate her for a great career because, you know, she's definitely been the Mike Tyson of women's fighting, you know, like she was the feared one in women's fighting for a long time. She lost some fights, right? You know, the men of Nunes is the one I remember the most, you know?

But, yeah, I didn't even know she took this fight. But, you know, yeah, I could see me her last fight. I thought it'd already been her last fight. So, yeah. I think, and I think the reality is, like, for people, like, Chris Seyborg is as good as she is as good as advertised. She just unfortunately fought the weight class that doesn't exist. Featherweight isn't really a weight class for women.

It's just not. And there just aren't enough women there to really challenge her. But she did have some of the biggest wins. I mean, beating Gina Carano back in the day was a huge, huge thing for her. That was, like, the biggest women's fight ever at that point, like, in 2009. And when you talk about Amanda Nunes, and like all the things Amanda did to become the goat, I think Amanda's biggest win wasn't Rhonda,

it wasn't Holly, it wasn't any of those. It was beating Chris Cyborg and knocking her out in a minute flat or whatever. That to me is the fight that was like, holy shit. Amanda Nunes is the goat. So, yeah, like, you know,

Cyborg. That was certainly, at least in my mind, the one where when she won, I was like, oh, she's the fucking real. Yeah. Who knew she was before, but would she beat Cyborg, especially the way?

ACB Cyborg. Oh, okay. Like, this is the, this is for you. Yeah. And then the only, like I said,

the only knock on Cyborg is just her weight class. Because when you look at skill, like she's a fucking savage. Like, she was one of the best, you could put, you know,

whatever you want to say. Like if Amanda Nunes is number one, because I think she is. You know, I'm doing all-time women. I mean, obviously you got to put, you know,

people like, you know, Rose Nambi Unis is on that list. Carlos is on the list. Like, you know, all-time Valentin, Shepenka is obviously on that list. Chris Seidberg is on that list. Her biggest detriment is she just didn't fight in a weight class where it was ever up really deep.

Like she was fighting a lot of girls who were bloated 135ers who probably shouldn't have been in there with her, but can't fault them for skills. We've seen a lot of fighters go up and wait and find success. I mean, they have. So that's the only knock on Chris is she just didn't have a lot of competition. Yeah. But I said there is an argument of her being one of the top two or three best of all time. I don't think there's an argument as to whether she is.

is the most feared woman of all time in MMA history so far. Like, I think dudes were scared of her, you know, when she was at her prime. We were like, dude, like, Cyborg will fuck you up. I think there's, and I know this is a controversial take, I think there's a reason why we never saw Rhonda Rousey and Chris Cyborg. And I don't think it's because Chris didn't want that fight. I'm just saying, I think there's a reason. I can hear, like, I hear them all the, you know, steroids and this and that.

Okay. still didn't see it and I don't think it's because Chris Seibor didn't want it. So I'm saying. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think you're spot on right there, bro. I'm just saying. In language, but yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah, so good fights this weekend. Yeah, as I mentioned, UFC card. Again, not the deepest card in the world, but, but, you know, still a pretty fun fight. And then right after that, man, we get into UFC 308. Oh, God, I cannot wait. I'll wait. I'll wait. I'll wait.

I'm sorry. Max Holloway. That might be my most anticipated fight for the rest this year. I am so excited for that one. That is going to be a goddamn barn burner, bloodbath. No way it's not. Yeah, why you feel about that fight right now?

That's just going to jump on it real quick. Yeah, we'll talk more about. Yeah, we'll break it down during fight week. But, man, I think I'll think Ilya is as good as advertising that dude's a monster, but man, I never bet against Max. I never, just Max Holloway is my dude. I'd never bet against that guy.

I just, I've stopped doubting. I picked against him in the Justin Gachie fight because I thought the last time we saw him a lightweight, Dustin kind of looked like bigger, stronger. And I was like, man, Gachie's a monster coming off that winner with Dustin. I was like, Gachie's on a run right now. I regret it because Max went out there and dealt it and ended up with one of the craziest moments of the history of sports. So am I wrong, maybe? But I just, I love Maxman.

I can't pick against him. Yeah, this is one of the things that I kind of dislike about doing the MMA podcast is sometimes I have to pick against the guys that I really, really like. And, you know, maybe I'll see them one day. Like, I've hung out with Max a few times and then, you know, maybe I'll see him again and he'll know that I picked against them or whatever. But I got to pick against him here, man. Ilya is on a fucking tear.

And I think he's, you know, just, I think he's in his prime, man. And I think he's too fast, too sharp. stylistically, just the perfect matchup to beat Max. And I never would pick against Max either. Not just because I like him and hung out with him and stuff, but also just because you don't pick against Max. Like, he could beat Francis Engano in particular. But so I would just get that out of the way right now,

and then we'll break it down more. I know this is cheesy. I'm going to be cheesy for a second, Matt. You know who wins that fight? us because we get to watch it. We're the winners because that's a fucking fight. Like, I think I'llie's got a great chance to win. I think Max got a great chance to win.

Let's just, I'm just, dude, I'm so excited. Like I said, honestly, I'm obviously happy to see John Beck and John Steepa. That's going to be a lot of fun. I think Olivera Chandler running back is going to be a lot of fun. I like Bilal Shavkat a lot. There's a lot of good fights still to come. I'm looking forward to Whitaker and Hansat on this card. That's a really interesting fight.

I think Ilya Max might be my most excited fight for the rest of these years. that is such a fucking fight man how is how is that not going to be entertaining like how is that going there's no way even if it lasts two rounds it's going to be an entertaining two rounds yeah the tailor made and that's why they made the fight right i think partially i mean the tailor made for each other stylistically is a perfect matchup um but i've studied a little bit of tape on both of them and i see where ilia is going to beat him i think and we'll break that down more next week absolutely Absolutely. So yeah, so make sure to check out the fights this week. And, of course, we'll kind of react to everything next week with Francis and everything goes down with that fight.

And, of course, we'll start getting into UFC 308, Max Holloway, Alia Tepori, Hamzott and Whitaker, what a great fight that is. Cyril Ghan and Volkov, they're fighting. So here's the question. We're going to react to Francis and Gondon fight next weekend. Are you buying the pay-per-view? I mean, I am, but that's because I'm working it. So there's a difference. like I'm working the event.

So that's kind of a, like, I try to watch everything, but what I, basically what you're asking is, would I put my money down if I didn't have to? That's what you're trying to get me to say, like would I do that? Of course I am, Matt. Of course I'm going to buy that pay-per-view. I support MMA, Matt. Of course I would do that.

Of course. But I'll be working the card on Saturday. It's your 50 bucks. Do what you want with it. Exactly. Exactly. All right, folks. Matt, where can people check you out?

They want to throw some support your way with everything you got going on. Obviously, the gym's doing well, and I know you're killing it, doing seminars, doing all kinds of traveling and stuff right now. So where can people throw you some support? I'm the immortal on Instagram and Twitter, the immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. And I always forget to plug it, you know, but I do my newsletter usually once a week, and sometimes every two weeks on Twitter and Facebook. Hopefully you be reading that day, Damon, and getting some. do.

Fucking writings and shit. That's why I kind of write my self-help. A lot of my journal stuff that I'll be writing, put that into that newsletter. So if anybody wants to subscribe to that, you can go on my Twitter or Facebook and kind of catch up on the, I don't know, always post a link in the comments, I guess, or whatever.

But it's on Substact, the weekly newsletter. So I always encourage everybody, check that out. And of course, my sponsor, at try underscore create, the best creating dummies around and I need to I'm a I need to upgrade my sauna soon because I want a big sauna but redwood outdoors at redwood outdoors CO hooked me up with a sick sauna an ice lunge a cold plunge whatever you call it so follow them give and use my code in mortal 250 to save

yeah your uh your newsletters are great actually I always see I was excited I get excited when I see and pop up on my Facebook page. Like, I always read them. I'm always like, this is, that, not that you need me to, like, tell you on this, Matt, but I always tell people, like, Matt doesn't get enough credit for how fucking smart he is with some of the shit he breaks down.

And that's, like, outside the fight stuff, like, mental stuff and, like, you know, that kind of thing. So that, that newsletter is actually really fascinating. And, no, I'm serious. Like, I always enjoy reading that. So, yeah, you should definitely check out the newsletter stuff. It's, like, again, like, this is, I know, we're a fight show, so we have to kind of talk to fights.

I get it. Like, that's kind of the point of our show. And during the off weeks, when we don't have a big fight coming up, we get to dig into other things like financials. And I enjoy those episodes. But seriously, go check out the, go check out the newsletter because it's really informative and makes you think and kind of proves what a fucking smart motherfucker Matt Brown is. Well, I greatly appreciate it.

It's a lot easier, you know, to write things down when you get to like formulate thoughts versus when you're a podcast is a lot more authentic straight up and you just got to say it, know, as it comes along. So if you ever want to dig into my deeper thoughts that are actually formulated thoughts, that's what the newsletter is for. I love it. Well, check that out. And obviously, we always appreciate everyone checking out to podcast.

Make sure you check us on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify. Of course, I've run the best website in the world, mMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin. We will be back next week with another edition of the Fighter versus the Writer. Thanks for doing in. We'll see you then. Thank you.