MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Offers Poirier Advice For Islam, Tells Crazy Story Of Almost Being Shanked in Jail

Episode Date: May 14, 2024

The Fighter vs. The Writer returns as UFC legend Matt Brown and MMA Fighting senior reporter Damon Martin discuss the latest in combat sports. With Dustin Poirier getting his third shot at becoming undisputed champion against Islam Makhachev at UFC 301 on June 1, is this opportunity do or die for him ever winning the title? Listen as Brown and Martin explain why no matter how many times Poirier fights for the belt, he’s probably never completely out of contention. Plus Brown offers Poirier advice on how he should approach the fight with Makhachev and the best possible game plan to beat the seemingly unbeatable Russian. Brown also tells a story he first teased on Twitter about nearly being shanked during a time he spent a few months behind bars when he was only 20 or 21 years old. Brown recounts the situation that led to the near disastrous end to his jail stay and he also reveals another brief stay in jail while he was in the middle of his UFC career. All this and more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two. Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudulian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible original Blockbuster. The Downloaded, it's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking,

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It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded two, ghosts in the machine. Available now, only from

Audible. Welcome back to the fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. Not only is he a UFC legend Matt Brown. He is UFC playing tribute videos to the retired Matt Brown while he's out on dates and shit.

So welcome back, Matt. It could have been better timing, right? Like, I'm sitting there on a date with this girl. You know, a beautiful woman, awesome girl. You know, everything was already going smooth. But, you know, we didn't really even talk about UFC because she didn't know, like, anything about UFC. And, you know, I don't like go around and be like,

like, who am a UFC fighter? She knew what it was, you know, but we're sitting at this restaurant. We didn't even know that they were playing the UFC at this restaurant. I didn't know this restaurant would have TVs. You know, it was like a pretty nice restaurant. And so I was like, oh, okay, well, that's cool. And we were coincidentally got seated where we could see the TV perfectly, you know,

where she could actually see it a little bit better than me, right? It's like I have to turn my head slightly. She just, you know, basically looks ahead. And it wasn't even like five minutes in and bam, they're showing this montage of me. And she's like, hey, is that you on the screen there? I'm like, yeah. And, you know, at the first, I mean, it was a little bit, it was almost a negative thing at first because it was kind of taking me away from her.

You know, I was like, I'm like, about to fucking ball up and shit. You know what I mean? Like, this is a big emotional moment for me. I'm like, you know, kind of fuck you for a minute. I need to be with myself for a minute. Wait a minute. What am I doing? This is the ultimate date night flex.

Yeah, seriously. Like, is that you want to? Is that you on TV right now? Like, yes, it is, as a matter of fact. Yeah, is that you on TV getting a tribute from the most epic fight promotion in history? All my knockouts and stuff. And, you know, I didn't really have to say much after that. I was like, I was like, I think this date night is pretty well sealed.

Yeah. My mouth shut and I fuck it up from here. Yeah, you're like, you didn't have to go, you didn't have to go the Flexron go. You know, did you want to make it to the gun show, me, ladies? I didn't have to brag about being a UFC fighter or like, yeah, I got the most knockouts and, you know, and she'd probably roll her eyes. Like, yeah, I bet you do, you fucking dork. I've heard that one before. Dude, that is that you could not have tied.

You couldn't have planned that. Like, you could not, like, obviously. So just to be clear, you didn't even know they were doing that. Like, they didn't call you ahead of time to say, hey, we're going to play this tribute video to you during the broadcast. Exactly. I had no clue that it was happening. you know we picked the restaurant mutually so it wasn't like she knew like I didn't pick this restaurant specifically you know to surprise her or something flex on her so you know it fucking

it made for a good night I'll tell you that much she's like she's like why are we why do we have to be seated exactly 9-10 and right in front of a TV you'll find out no reason no particular reason no no right right there's none that's what was like it was really amazing because It was none of that. It was just the biggest coincidence. But like I said, at first it was, it almost turned negative because I just wouldn't be by myself for a minute. I was like, I just got to watch this. Like, I don't care about you right now.

And then I was like, do you only live once? Come on. You got to eat this shit up. I could watch the montage on Instagram later, Twitter or something. It was, it was cool, though, because like I said, I was, I was doing, writing a recap. I can't remember what after what fight to happen. But I have the TV to the side and have my computer right. front of me. And I always glance over to see

if like fighter walkouts or happen to whatever because I kind of turn the volume down. And I just see the little bar on the bottom of the screen say something about you. Matt Brown announced his retirement. I was like, oh shit. So I turned the volume back up. There's Laura Sanko and Michael Bisping and Brandon Fitzgerald all talking about you. And then they played the video and they had that big thank you screen with thank you

Matt Brown. I was like damn, that's awesome. Like that was really cool because you know, we talked about this like last week we talked about the decision to retire. Like it kind of even like kind of caught me up. I was like you've been around since 2006 fighting in the UFC. 8.

Like 2008 since fighting the UFC. I'm like, that's wild. Like, that's a long time. That's really cool. They did that. Like, you know, they don't have to do that. They get to just been like, oh, yeah, he retired. Fuck off like this.

They didn't have to do anything, but they did a cool video and a little tribute on the broadcast. I was like, damn right. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, the thing, too, is, I don't know, kind of the one of my first. I was like, like, I don't remember seeing these for other fighters. I'm sure they've done it for others, but certainly not on a regular basis. No.

It's off guard, you know? I don't, I'm trying to remember, I mean, I can't really remember a time when they've, I mean, I'm sure they've done some version of that, but like, I don't remember when, at least not, you know, outside of, like, even, even when guys like George St. Pierre retired, like, I don't really remember them doing that. I know when they do, like, the Hall of Fame announcement, they've done little montages like that but I can't remember them at least not from my memory of just being like yeah he retired because you know there's definitely been those moments where guys are retired and they know about it I've seen

them mention stuff on the air before but I can't remember them really doing a little montage video like that that was cool I was like damn that's awesome like kind of you know kind of shows you they appreciate you like they appreciate your work and and all the work you put in over the years yeah you know I mean it's too bad it wasn't on you know a UFC pay-per-view or something you know here I am complaining right um yeah so that felt extra special man so you know i thank the UFC for that i'm grateful that they acknowledge that for me um yeah so you know it's just another tear jerking fucking moment in this week you know and i'm not even like really thinking about it that much you know what i mean like i'm i'm i'm out grinding man like i'm you know i'm you know

training in other guys, training with the guys, and, you know, flipping houses and, you know, building my gym. And, you know, I got all this other shit going on. I'm not even thinking about it. So, you know, I'm trying not to let my eyes get watered up this week. Are you, uh,

I know this from going back years and a big part of us doing our podcast originally when, you know, was you, me and, Mark Coleman, our buddy Jeremy Loper, those are just fun doing podcasts kind of getting to, but I know from knowing you so long, Like you were never a big interview guy.

Like you never like, you're like, oh yeah, man, I love doing interviews. I love talking about myself. Are you sick of talking about yourself over the last week? And I'm sure you got bombarding with a request. People wanted to talk to you about your retirement. I know you did a couple interviews, but I'm sure you're probably like, yeah, I'm done talking about this. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's easy to feel that way for sure. Because, you know, any self-respect, any respectable person like doesn't just want to talk about themselves all week.

I'm also used to it too. Like when you go fight, you know, you do a media week and, yeah, you're talking about yourself all the time, same questions over and over. And it kind of feels like that again is really what it feels like, you know. And I guess, you know, the bigger part, the bigger difference this week is, you know, I'm not repeating these same answers over and over again, you know, to simply like pump myself up for my fight. in the weekend, right? Instead, I'm repeating these same answers to the same questions that I really didn't want to talk about the start. Yeah. Because you want to talk about the fight, right? Like, you know, I mean, you're so centered around it and

and so focused on it. Any times anybody asked you about it, like, it's already on your mind anyway. You're like, yeah, let's go. But this retirement, you know, again, doing probably, you know, definitely an equal, if not more, amount of interview. use, but I'm talking about something that's really, I don't know if I say depressing, but it's a little, you know, a little bit of a bummer, you know? I mean, you've done it when there's something you've done this long and you're walking away from it and also remember that typically people retire, and I know, you know, that's, that really that's not the word you like to use because you're not really retired, you're just not fighting,

but typically speaking, you're not retired until you're, you know, until you're, you know, until you're old you know you're older you're in your 60 70s and you know you're walking away from your career and you're kind of the twilight of your life athletes have to retire at 30 40 20 sometimes depending you know what I mean that's a different thing you still got a lot of years ahead of you it's not you're retiring and you're going to be gone in 10 years or nine years or something like that you've got plenty of life left to live in front of you so it's I'm sure it's kind of weird to be like yeah I'm walking away from the thing I'm most known for and have done most of my life but yet I know I'm not really done

because I have a million or everything's going on and I got a lot of life left to live. So I'm sure it is weird because it's just a different grade. Again, it's something that you can only relate to with other fighters and other athletes because guys like me, we can look up to you, we can hold your in reverence, we can do all those kind of things, but I'm not a fighter.

I can say I know fighters, I know fighting, but I'm not a fighter. So I don't know what that feels like. But I would imagine it's weird, right? Like you just, you just close the, close the book on a big part of what has been your life for the last 20 some odd years. And, uh, and you're, it's not like you're done with life or it's not like you're going to go, you know, move to Florida and hang out in the fucking beach now. Like, you're still working and grinding. You're just not fighting right now. Well, you know, that's actually a great point because that was actually, I didn't even really mention that.

But, uh, and I may not even realize it until just now. But that's a little bit of motivation for retiring was that, you know, I'm ready to. Again, that is a little bit of my motivation to stop fighting, right? Because I want to start working towards retiring. And continuing fighting is not working towards retired. Really what, you know, at the level that I'm fighting, I'm not, you know, continuing for a title. I'm not in the top 10.

I'm not making a title run. I don't have that in me. Really what I'm doing is fighting for another paycheck, you know, maybe building my brand more, things like that. But it's not actually working towards true retirement. You know, like I made, you know, around 300K in my last fight. And like, you can't retire off 300K. You know, I still got 40, 50 years left in my life.

Like that math does not work out very well, you know. So, you know, so there was a little bit of, I don't know, I wouldn't call it urgency, but there was a little something like, okay, you need to start working towards what's going to be. sustainable over long term so you don't have to keep doing this. And that's a great point that you brought up. And well, I guess I brought it up, but you kind of put it in my head because I hadn't really thought of it that way. But there is, that's probably a larger piece that I haven't even mentioned that I hadn't

really thought about. Yeah. That's a gigantic piece of it right there. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely it is. And like I said, it's, it's, you bring those things out of a guy, right? You know, hey, you know, I do my best. I'm asking about this here versus, you know, people at the press conference last night asking for Dana White to brand them, which was interesting.

Did you hear about this? Somebody. You asking Cowboy to brand them? Yeah, I'm like, I was like, what, how does this relate to UFC and where in the world? Huh? Like, it was so utterly confusing. I put it out last night and said, this is the worst post-fired press conference in the history. One guy was trying to sell ice cream.

Like, everybody that came up to like, do. did you try this ice cream? And then like the one person was asking the brander. And then the other dude, oh my God, the one that got me was the guy who caught Derek Lewis's cup. And he threw the cup down towards Media Row. The Meteorow person caught it. Now, he asked Dana White to autograph, but that's bad enough because professionally, being professional as a journalist, you're not supposed to do that.

You're not supposed to walk up and ask for autographs from people you're interviewing. That's just not professional. But he's, oh, my God, it was so bad. He goes, he actually is Derek Lewis. stuff there. He said, yeah, it doesn't smell bad. He sniffed it. He sniffed the cup, Matt. I was like yeah, it doesn't have to smell bad to make

you want to vomit there. But the fact that he said, no, the fact that he said it didn't smell bad means he had to smell it. And I'm like, like, you got that clipped in your face, that's enough to make you want to vomit. Yeah, like, in what world does that a good idea to like, for one, if Derek

Lewis direct me at me, I'm moving out of way and I'm not touching it. That's part one. I don't care what kind of collector's item it is. And two, I'm certainly not picking it up and then sniffing it. I was like, oh, my God. Like when I read that, when I heard that in the press conference last night, I was like, oh, I'm going to go vomit now because that's that's a bridge too far right there, man. I got no desire to catch a cup, much less sniff it and then tell the fighter, oh, it doesn't smell bad. I don't even know. Just say it about that. Like, what's wrong with these people, man? Like that's like a you know one of those

I don't know 15 year old fans that's what you would think someone would do that right like some fat 15 year old sitting in his basement like hey I got the cup man I sniffed it you know post on Reddit or something it's a not some professional MMA journalist yeah listen I get it I you know everyone's that was and that was the worst thing about the about the one who is asking asking Dana or Calwood a brand or whatever and they're like and Dana literally is like why

Why? And she's like for clout. And I'm like, all right. Like, let's just close the door right. You're just saying you're doing this for attention. Like, clout is another word for attention. You're not doing this because you have some deep, meaningful belief in getting a brand. You're doing it because you want people to follow you on Instagram or Twitter or whatever the fuck. And I'm like, this is, this is remarkably dumb.

Like, I. I didn't like ask her to leave right then. Just you should not be in this room right now. You're wanting to get branded. like let's just end this now let's get the fuck out of here I think he was like I think he was legitimately like I think in the back of Dana's mind he was just saying they're like what the fuck like the fuck like she just asked me to like

it's it kind of catch you off guard right and be like I mean as a fighter I'm sure at some point or someone eventually walked up and said hey can you punch me or can you kick me that's not that unusual someone's like I want to see what it's like take a punch for a fighter we've seen people take kicks from fighters I see that I understand that but like branding you that's a new one i gotta say that's a new one yeah that's permanent right there and that's a lot of pains like yeah i would just walked out if i was dana like i'm not shit

like you know i mean was there any real questions asked at all i mean who are a couple there were a couple i the one of the oscar from de mac life was there he asked legitimate questions at the start of it and actually got out the news that uh conner connor connor return a UFC 303 in about a month's time, a little over a month's time, is going to be the first ever $20 million gate for the UFC, which is a big deal. Connor has the record already with the first two, which is over $17 million for his father of Eddie Alvarez at the Kibib fight, but he's going to break $20 million, first time ever in UFC history.

So big deal. Yeah, that's pretty cool, man. That's going to be a badass show at the Spear. That's pretty cool, man. UFC's, they're doing good, man. They're just trying to, you know, they're constantly. coming up with new ways, new things to do. Like this sphere thing, that's going to be so badass, dude.

I really hope I'm able to go to that. I haven't seen the sphere yet. Have you seen this fear? No, just on, I mean, well, I was in Vegas and I could see it from the outside, but I haven't been inside. Yeah, I haven't, I haven't been there either. I haven't been to Vegas a little while. I haven't been out there in a little while, so I feel like I need to get out there

and see it. I've seen the photos and the videos there. It looks pretty awesome. And Dana, Dana's building this thing up. Like, it's going to be the greatest show that's ever been seen. And I'm just like, I mean, I, listen, I, I, listen. I don't doubt that it's going to be awesome. I'm just curious, like, what in the hell it's going to look like?

I've seen the videos of people watching YouTube and concerts and videos and stuff in the sphere, so I kind of know what it looks like. But I'm fascinated at what Dana has planned to really pull off this spectacular, never-foreseen kind of project to do this show in September. So, and, you know, and listen, they've already said it's one and done. Like, they said, we're only going to do one because it's so fucking expensive. There's no way we can do another one. So enjoy this one while at last because it's the only one.

one you're getting. Right, right. So, yeah, that's September, but Connor comes back in June. That's going to be a massive card coming up. And, of course, in just a couple weeks, we got UFC 301 with Dustiporay fight and Islam O'Cachev and Paulo Costa and Sean Strickland. So still got a couple more big fights to get before we get to the sphere in September. Yeah, that's pretty exciting, man. I think that's going to be a badass card, dude. I think those fights could turn out to be better than people think, man. Well, I don't think anybody's thinking they're not going to be. But I think that some bar and burner fights right there.

You know, I think Porriere, that that was what I think I was alluding to there. I think Poriier might do a lot better than people think. Him winning against Islam, you know, we know, and we all know he's got an uphill battle. And, you know, it's a bad matchup for him, you know, that's, we've already seen this. But, man, Fourier, we all know he's a guy who is going to surprise people. he knows what he's getting into this time it's probably his last title shot you know might be his last fight i think if he loses i mean you know who really knows i mean you know he might have a few more left in him or whatever but you know i wouldn't be surprised if it was his last

fight if he lost i don't think you would either right no not at all not at all and i i talked to mike brown his coach about this and he said you know he said something he's like you know listen, you know, like he was basically saying, like, I understand why they gave it to him. Dustin's earned this based on merit, you know, maybe he didn't go on like a nine-fight win streak or something crazy like that, but I don't think anyone's really complaining about him getting the title shot. And he did say he's like, you know, got nothing to lose because he's not really supposed to be here. I mean, no one was really thinking that Dustin was going to get a title shot this quickly after losing to Justin Gachie and then just beating Benoit. And then everyone's like, okay, well, you know, we're going to move on to the winner of Charles and Armin or Gachie if he beats Holloway.

things played out perfectly. Dustin gets a title shot. No one's complaining. I've not really heard anyone saying, oh, man, this is crap. Like, why didn't he get it? Hey, Armand turned it down. I get why Armand turned it down.

He wasn't 100%. He wouldn't have been ready for June 1st. Okay. I mean, I know some people have said, like, dude, you got to take that. Like, you got to take that fight. But I'm not going to fault him. If he really felt like he wasn't healthy

and just felt like he wouldn't be ready in six weeks, okay. And, you know, and Gachie lost. Like, Holloway beat him. Like, the only guy that I would say you could put it in front of Dustin right now, and I wouldn't complain really. As if Holloway is like, give me the title shot.

I'm like, all right, give him the title shot. But other than that, I don't really see a problem with this. But I agree with you. But in both parts, Matt, I think Dustin's going to do better than people expect him to do. But I think Dustin's got to know. And I know nothing's ever finite in this sport, Matt. You know that because after Dustin got knocked out by Justin Gachie, you probably would have said you're not getting a title shot, you know, anytime soon

because you got knocked out by Justin Gachie. Less than a year later, he's getting a title shot. he's going to turn 36 next year you know he's at the tail in his career he knows that you know like I think he's got to know like this might be the last one like there's it's going to be hard for him to get their title shot off this again nothing's impossible but that would be his third time fighting for the undisputed title

if he loses it again I think he's got to know there's probably not going to be a fourth if there is it's not going to be anytime soon and you know but it's also at the same time he is that kind of guy where he would be the type to get another one too, right? Yeah, that's true. You know, and that's one of the fun things about watching and following a career of a guy like Dustin Poirier. I mean, he just continually perseveres and works.

Like watching that tribute with me the other day and then pumping me up to be all these things. And like we could attribute all those exact same qualities to Dustin Poirier, probably to a higher level than you would me. So, you know, he's been at a higher level. live me for a while now so you know i mean i wouldn't count that guy out of nothing you know so if he decides if he ends up losing to his mom and i think part of it would probably depend on like how he loses to him too like if his arm goes in dominates him and he might be like like you know this

probably isn't going to be for me but if he has like a close fight i could see i could totally see him to look i'm going to work my way back like even if he lost quickly he might feel the same way but certainly like if it ended up being a close fight and maybe losing a close decision or something like how could he not be like dude I still fucking got it like I can beat a bunch of these guys get back to a title shot you know give me one more fucking chance

and he's the type of guy we give him the chance and we're seeing it right now right like he he's always that guy you know a fight away from a title shot it's weird because in a lot of ways Dustin feels like he's playing with house money right now right like he really shouldn't be here by all metrics of like what happened with Gagee and then beating Binwa-Saint-Din-Ni, which is a great win.

But Ben-Wa-Saint-Deney was like number 12 or 13 in the division. By all normal metrics, Dustin shouldn't be here right now. Like we all agree that this really, you know, on paper shouldn't happen. But again, no one's complaining because the way the cards fell, it worked out perfectly. So in a way, he's playing with house money because he really shouldn't be here. On the flip side, though, I do believe this is kind of like do or die depending on how the fight goes. And I know that sounds really weird. If he goes out there and has a great battle with Islam and ends up losing in the fifth round

or lose a 48, 47 decision, and it's a fucking battle, kind of like what Volcanowski did with Islam the first time, I'm like, dude, Dustin could really easily work his way back to another title shot, and he's probably not more than a winner two away from him because it's Dustin Poirier. But if he goes out there and gets taken down and choked out in the first round or just gets dominated by Islam and put away in the second round and it just does not go his way and he's not really in the fight, let's be honest Matt like Islam can do that to you Islam could do that to anybody he did it to Charles Oliver Charles Oliver looked unbeatable and then Islam went out there just absolutely ragdolled him and it looked like what like what happened to Charles oliverr Islam just steamrolled him so that could happen I think that's where the reverse happens where like you talk about like there's a potential this could be his last fight like if he goes out there gets absolutely manhandled by islam Ocacchav and finish inside two rounds and he's never really in the fight which again could happen to anybody islam Ocacchav fights

I think there is a world where Dustin's like, you know what, I think I'm done. Like, you know, he's probably got plenty of money in the bank. He's got businesses. He's got families, got things going on. And at that point, like, would he really get back to another title shot anytime soon? Probably not. I mean, maybe he wants to stick around and get a trilogy with Gates or maybe he wants stick around to get their paycheck from Connor.

But realistically, I think there is a world where if Dustin Poree loses badly, he just says, you know what, I'm good, man. I'm done. You know, I'm just going to walk away. And I took my shot, didn't get it. and we'll walk away. But on the flip side, like I said, even if he loses and it's a good fight,

I think he keeps going, he can get right back. It's a weird one. It's a really weird one, I think. Well, you have a great point. You know, no one complained that Dustin Poir got this title shot. If anyone else,

maybe barring like Armand or Charles Oliveira or somebody, if anybody else, though, for the most part, was beat Benoit, St. Denise. Yeah. Like, it would be mad. I would like, dude, that wasn't.

But that speaks to who Dustin Porrier is. When Dustin Poirier wins a fight, we're like, yes, let's get him a title shot. You know what I mean? Like, you know, he's coming off a knockout and then beating Benoit. And like, like you said, nobody's mad about it. Like that tells you all you need to know about Dustin Poirier right there. And again, it's, it is hard to see him necessarily retiring, you know, really no matter how. he loses but you know it's a great point like if he gets dominated i mean you just got to wonder

i mean he he certainly has one of the strongest minds in the sport but you got to wonder where his mindset's going to be with uh you know i think you said it'd be his third uh title chance you know that's a that's a lot to deal with yeah and i'm sure i think i i feel like dustin's the kind of guy he doesn't want you know i know we use this phrase a lot you know he he wants to retire from the sport. He doesn't want the sport to retire him. I don't see Dustin being the guy to stick around to start losing to Binwasse, Deneen, losing to the number nine guy, losing to the number eight guy. You know, I don't see him being the guy that becomes the feeder for like the next prospect. And I don't feel, I don't feel like he's ever

wanting to be that dude. So, yeah, I don't know. It's a weird one because, but again, on the flip side, I honestly think, like, he's not really supposed to be here. So if he loses, is it really that detrimental to him? Like, no one really thought he was going to get a title I anyhow and so okay he loses guess what no one predict him to be here anyway so like how much did he really lose it's a weird thing it's a really odd thing with this one yeah was I just hope it it turns out to be a great fight man I'm always cheering for Dustin I think we all somewhere inside of us you know even if you're an Islam fan like you're not going to be rooting against us and you're just rooting for Islam like I don't know how anybody can ever root against Dustin like what a great

motherfucker dude he is and getting leading into it man we get Strickland and Costa like that if I could get so many different ways like that that's just an awesome awesome matchup I think

you're just on paper that you know Strickland has a way of making fights boring too though so you know he could end up just going jab in and talking shit to Costa the whole time and you know not really looking for a finish

just talking fucking shit and throwing his jab out there. But, yeah, you know, Costa is so tough, man. It hits so hard. Like, you know, I think that's, it's going to be hard to see that when not being a bar and burner at some point. Yeah. Now, when I talk to Mike Brown about this, because Mike Brown is his coach, of course,

I'm not going to ask Mike Brown strategic questions. Like, that's stupid. Like, oh, yeah, what's your strategy to meet Isl-Macacha? I'm not going to do that. But, Matt, you're a coach. You know the sport. I love when we get to talk X's and O's with the sport. If you're Dustin Porre, and I think stylistically you fought more like Dustin Porre during your career,

you're a striker, tremendous knockout artists, Muay background, things like that. And again, I want to give Dustin credit. He's got good wrestling. He's got great submissions. I don't want to make him seem like he's just a boxer or just a striker because he's not. He loves the guillotine. We all know that. If you were giving advice or you were kind of looking at this, because I agree, I think it's actually a much better fight that people give it credit for.

Because Islam likes to stand a little bit. takes a few more chances than Khabib used to, and I think that can be a dangerous game to play with the guy like with Dustin. I mean, I thought maybe it be a dangerous game to play with Charles Oliva. I certainly didn't work out that way. But if you're, if you're a Dustin's coach, if you're working with Dustin, if you're looking at Dustin, what does Dustin need to do to beat Islam McAcha? And beyond just, like, outstrike him because obviously he could do that,

but we've seen Islam shows some pretty damn good striking lately. Yeah, which is kind of one of the unpredictable factors in his fight as like Islam has been standing with people more, it seems, you know, as his careers progress, like he's gotten more confident in his stand-up. And he's certainly going to be more confident now than ever before. So, you know, that's definitely Dustin's best chance. But look, if you're Dustin, you got to keep the middle. You got to keep the center of the octagon.

You know that's where Islam's going to try to put you up against the cage. You've got to keep the pressure on Islam. And look, you know he's going to shoot at some point. you know, 99% chance. Like, let's try to make him shoot versus allowing him to decide when he wants to shoot, right? We don't want to, you know, sit back and pepper and wait for him to shoot, right? Like, we kind of see the old, you know, stick and move thing, you know, where you're kind of waiting on that guy to shoot and hopefully you're able to sprawl away from.

it or stop it against the cage or whatever. You know, if I'm Dustin, if I'm Dustin's team, I'm saying you push Islam back and make him shoot on him. He's going to shoot one way or another. Let's make him do it. Let's force him into that situation because what Islam wants is to set it up. He doesn't want to do a, you know, he wants a clean shot. He wants to get in a little bit of striking and make you think he's going to strike and then,

and then, you know, threaten you with. the striking a little bit and then go underneath for a shot and push you against the cage that that's his game plan so if i'm dust and especially being you know with dustin's style you pressure islam until he's forced to do it uncomfortably so it's not a clean shot it's like a reactionary shot like you hit him and you're forcing him to go for a takedown which is not the way wrestlers want to go for takedowns you're reacting it's like when a guy gets dropped and he's grabbing onto a leg because he has to survive. That's not the way

Islam Akacha wants to get a takedown. He wants to control the pace. He wants to control the center of the octagon. He wants to control where Dusty Poirier is moving and going. And when you take that away from him, it's a different kind of shot. It's a different kind of wrestling. Yep, because he's going to shoot one way or another. Right?

So let's make this as poor of a shot as possible, as forced of a shot as possible, versus allowing him to set it up. Let me ask you this, Matt, because I think we saw this in the first fight with Volcanovsky with Islam, not in the second of course, because that did not work out very well for Volcanovsky whatsoever. But in the first fight, what I saw for Volcanovsky was he didn't show fear of those exchanges where

he knew that Islam could take him down because when Islam did get him down, he got back up. And then Islam actually ended up hurting Volk on the feet, which I think surprised a lot of people. And then Volk did better on the ground. A lot of people saw him do it. But I think that attitude of like, I'm not going to alter who I am just because you're an incredible wrestler and grappler and you're bigger than me. I'm not going to just change who I am. And I think that helped Volcanozky in the first fight.

I thought he definitely looked better because he didn't show that tendency. It's like, you know, I know Vulcan obviously a much different fighter than Edson Barbosa, but like if you take away Edson's kicks and he can't kick you because he's afraid of the takedown, you just alter 50% of Edson Barboza's game because Edson is such a tremendous kicker.

I think Vulc went in there and just like, I'm going to fight you how I would fight anybody and you're going to adapt to my game now again to credit islam did adapt and still won the fight is there any element of that you think dustin should employ where he can't go in there just like respecting islam we've seen this a million times guys go in there not saying they're beating beforehand but like they've already got in their head i got to stop this guy's takedowns and and they fight differently a hundred percent and i'm saying that from experience and by the number one time that i felt that exact same way was i fought damien my eye like

on the feet, I didn't fight like myself because I was trying to move my feet and stay away from where he could do the takedowns. And, you know, there's, you know, a lot more to it than that, too. But particularly on the feet. And then when I, at the one time that I did come forward and landed a big shot and I dropped Damien, I've seen his eyes roll back in the back of his head. I hadn't trained to be offensive. So my mind wasn't, I had a split second where I had. I had to decide what to do right then. But my mind over in the six, eight, ten weeks, I don't remember how long in camp was of training camp.

You know, my brain wasn't programmed to do that. So I stayed, you know, so I took my time and hesitated a little bit. And that, you know, so I'm saying Dustin's strategy that I'm imploring for him is based off of my own experience. where he needs to do exactly what you're saying. You do you and do it so good that he has to react to you. I can't repeat it enough times. Islam is going to shoot on Dustin.

That is his game plan, right? Like the chances that Islam's strategy is to stand with Dustin and test his stand-up skills is slim to none. So we already know, you know, you know, if you're in Dustin's camp, you already know what the guy's gameplan is. So are you going to allow him to do that the way that he wants to do it? Or are you going to force him to do it the way that you want, you know, so it turns out to be a not a clean shot or not, you know,

in the rhythm that Islam wants or the flow that he wants. That's where you make him make a mistake. And I think like we saw it, and I know it's, you know, I know they're different fighters, but I think we saw that when Jelton Almeida was taking Curtis blades down and he couldn't hold him. Like, Curtis would not go down. Like he was able to get him like down to the cage and a little bit down to the maybe. He could never control Curtis. He could never get a hold of him.

And then the second round, he just shot a naked shot and Curtis knocked him out with elbows because he just didn't know, he didn't know how to react when he couldn't just get a guy down and control him on the ground. That was the first guy that didn't just go down. And Curtis didn't go down. And we've seen this a thousand times. When you make a wrestler or any grappler, shoot a bad shot when they don't want to shoot a shot, like what you're talking about, you got a knee up to the middle.

You got elbows. You got uppercuts. You got a million different weapons. You got a guillotine. We know Dustin loves a guillotine. Well, I mean, you just got a better sprawl chance, too. I mean, you know, a guy sets it up and, you know, has a clean shot.

He's going to get all the way, you know, someone like Islam. He's going to get all the way to your hips. And again, he's going to chain wrestle. from there. But now if he's extending himself a little bit and isn't in the standard position that he's used to getting into in a wrestling

position, you know, now it could turn into a scramble. You know, Volcanovsky did this, right? They turn into scramble sometimes and, you know, it gives you at least a chance. And a lot of this goes back to the training where, like, if you think about it, like, what Islam,

you know, with all of his training partners, they know what he's doing. Right? So they're going to strategize on it. And again, it depends on how good the coaches are, how well, you know, they're teaching his sparring partners, his drilling partners to work with them because, you know, they might be saying, you know, this is what we expect Dustin to do.

So do this. But if they're just strategizing to win, most likely in the gym, they're going to be moving their feet, trying to pack and move away, right? They're not looking for a finish. They're not coming forward trying to pressure Islam. And the same for Dustin, right? you know, he, because he's got to be training to go for the kill. If he's able to pressure forward and able to land that shot,

he's got to go for the kill right away, which Dustin is already very good at. But if he's not training that way, then it's going to be a problem in the fight. So he can't be doing that with all of his sparring partners, right? Because he's just going to be knocking everybody out and not going to have any sparring partners, right? And again, with Islam, you know, how he trains is going to be, okay, you got, you know, everybody knows that you're going to come in and try to take us down.

So, you know, are they going to be pressuring Islam? You know, again, I don't know if Dustin will follow my game plan. You know, maybe you can call Mike Brown and say, hey, we got a, we got your cousin, Matt Brown is over here. So, you know, it depends a lot on, you know, and that's why it's so hard to bet on these fights. You know, you don't know who these guys are trained with. You don't know how their strategy. You don't know if they're training properly or not. And, you know, and all that comes and shows through in the fight for the most part.

You know, there's also times like, hey, Dustin might train perfect, you know, might implement my game plan, you know, my scheme plan. You know, my skin plan might be the perfect game plan. And then the guy is just better than you, you know? Yeah. Like you do everything exactly the way you're supposed to. And the guy's fucking better. Yeah. You know, and that's one of the toughest parts about this sport, man.

It's like, like, we do all of this hard work and, and, you know, we're grinding, you know, we're sacrificing, you know, time with the family. We're sore, we're tired, we're beat up or we're injured. And you don't even know if it's going to fucking play out for it. Yeah. You know, like you're sacrificing. It's the same like building a business. Like I'm, I've been kind of dealing with that, you know, running a gym for a long time. It's like, it's like at some, at some point, you're just, you know, you're just like, you're just like, you're just like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's some point.

I think that's why a lot of businesses fail and certainly why a lot of fighters fail because it's such hard work and there's so much stress and risk to it and injury and mental stress and all these things and you have no fucking clue if it's going to work.

That's why people go to college because they're like if I, even if they have to suffer through college and it sucks for them and they're not good at it and they have to stay up late and work for exams. They're like, the chances of getting a job, job after this are very fucking high. So I have a high probability this is going to work out.

And that's why starting a business or being a fighter and things like that are difficult because you don't know if it's going to work out. Hit pause on whatever you're listening to and hit play on your next adventure. This fall get double points on every qualified stay. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. Yeah, I will, I'll say this, and because I know we've talked about this on the show before, and I'm not, this is not certainly not me trying to take a knock on the guy. But we always talked about one of our, maybe one of our slightest,

one of our concerns about Connor McGregor is who is he surrounding himself with to get better? You know, we've talked about that a lot. And I think John Kavanaugh is an incredible coach, but you can have the best coach in the world, do you have people around you that are making you get better? Do you have people that are pushing you and, you know, that are better strikers than you, better wrestlers than you, better jit-sou guys to you, that you can learn from and grow from and get better. And we've talked about the show many times. Like, we feel like we both kind of agreed like Connor would probably do better if we had those people, are, you know, are you surrounding

yourself with those people who are going to push you to be a better fighter and make you a better fighter? And we had that legitimate concern because you don't really hear that. Like, who's Connor working with? Is he working with a plus level guys or is he working with a lot of C-plus level guys who are just like, yes, Connor, I'll do this, Connor. Like, you know, so, but the one thing we can't say about this fight, there's not going to be anyone under trained for this one, because Islam O'Cachib's got an incredible team around him at AKA Javier Mendez, Kabib, all those guys, Daniel Cormey, all those guys, and of course down to American top team, there is no shortage of great people.

Steve Mocko is an incredible wrestling coach. Mike Brown is one of the best coaches in the sport. We know they got a freaking laundry list of top guys to work with. So the one thing you can't say about this fight, and you could say it about Conner and Chandler, like, who is Connor working with? You know who Chandler's working with, Henry Hooson, incredible coach. Robbie Lawler's one of his main coaches for this fight. I don't know if you heard that or not.

Robbie Lawler's going to be one of Michael Chandler's big coaches for this fight. And obviously, working down to Kilcliffe, he's got no shortage of good guys to work with. We can say there is some concern about Connor. We don't know who he's working with beyond training with John Cavana. Now, maybe it doesn't matter, but we can ask that question. No questions about Islam and Dustin. They're going to be well trained. They're going to be well prepared.

They're going to be well coached. And then it's going to be what happens to the occasion. And as you said, man, this sport is so. unpredictable let me tell you funny we do a little fight pick crew like we have a little fight picking team in our in our little mma fighting group where we all picked the cards and you know kind of like bragging rights and who picks the cards you don't see 301 in brazil 12 fights i went 11 and 1 missed one missed now the one i missed is probably the one everyone's like how did you miss that i big jonathan martine has to be josealdo got that one wrong picked every other fight right

last night's card the card that just happened a couple of whatever was the one from st louis I went like five for 12 I just I bombed it That the sport's so unpredictable man One week I'm going 11 to 1 The next week I'm going 5 and 7 Like it was awful And I'll add to what you were saying there

About like Connor Just because he's a good example Where we question who he's around And when we talk about that I think there's something to be said For both ends of that argument too or not argument, but both ends of that types of training, where, for example, if you think of the old school boxing style,

like if you came in and you beat up the guy getting ready for a fight, they kick you out of camp, right? We all heard these. And why do they do that? Because of the confidence, right? They want the guy to speak confident. So, you know, I don't know, because I've never trained at T, T or AKA, I don't know the training system that they have.

are they pushing the guys, you know, to the point that they're hurting their confidence, too? I'm guessing they're not. I mean, they both have very high success. But when you're talking about being surrounded by all these great guys all the time, you know, that can be a detriment too because, you know, the, the egos involved, you know, fighters aren't always, you know, they're always friendly people, but in the room, they're not always friendly people, you know. and when you start sparring or training with guys, you know, they're not always friendly, right?

There's a lot of times, again, egos and, and arrogance and, you know, a lot of different things, pride. So what I'm getting out here is, you know, there is a balance there, and each of them need to match that balance. Now, so getting back to Connor is like that may, you know, he's never had a problem with confidence, right? Like he's been insanely confident every time. And that may play a role in that.

But his confidence has also been a huge, I would argue, has been a huge key to his success. But, you know, which made him almost invincible for a while. And it's like, okay, well,

now that's taken away. Like people aren't necessarily worried about your confidence. We've seen that confidence. that confidence and we've seen it get get wrecked when you have a confidence so you know i think there's a lot of pieces to this puzzle here and you know the last thing i'll say about is look that you know that confidence something i realized over my time of fighting is confidence isn't just built in the gym as a matter of fact i think actually less confidence is built in the gym around all your guys that are pumping you up all your guys that love you and you know are saying

motivational quotes with you and hanging out with David Goggins and things like that. Providence is built a lot more when you're alone. What the fuck are you doing then? Right. Are you building the evidence in the back of your mind that you're going to be a champion when you're sitting by yourself? You know, when there's no one else around? Like, is that positive self-talk still there?

Right. Like we see kind of doing it for the camera. Is he doing that still to this day? after all that he's been through and know, you know, all the distractions for his mind and everything, is he still doing that today when he's sitting in his living room alone, if he's even ever alone? And correct me if I'm wrong, please. If I'm wrong, tell me this, Matt. But am I wrong in thinking the flip side, the downside of that is if you keep that confidence and you're like, I'm fine, I'm good, I'm good to go.

Like, I've surrounded myself with these people my entire career. I know how to win. Yet we've seen the results in his last five fights. one in four or two and four, whatever his record is over the last few years, that that can come back to bite you. Am I right and thinking that can absolutely come back to it? If you never change that mentality, he's always just confident. Like, I know what I'm doing.

I'm good. I got the right people around me. They got me here. I'll be fine. That could backfire as well, right? Like, I'm right and thinking that. Yeah, I think you're 100% right because, look, like, everybody talks a lot of different things about confidence and how you build confidence.

And I'm a strong believer that the only way you build confidence is through evidence, right? Your subconscious is going to see through you talking mantras in the mirror and, you know, you visualizing the secret manifestation bullshit and, you know, and doing cold plunges at six in the morning. Like, you know, your subconscious sees right through all that bullshit. What it doesn't see through is when you say you're going to do something and you go do it. That's when you have convinced your subconscious. just this is a fact, right? And that's why, you know, you'll even see it with some people, like say, for instance, like losing weight. Like, you know, some people might lose, you know,

like making weight for a fight. Like, like some people, they could be like way overweight and then they got a fight in like eight weeks. Then they're like, dude, I'm going to make it. Like, no problem. Because they've done it before. Right. They have that evidence in their mind. So they already have that confidence built in whereas someone else might say oh yeah i'm going to make it i'll be fine but their subconscious knows that that's a fucking lie yeah i mean it's like you know i say it all time is you know integrity is is one of the most important things in the sport and what integrity is is what you do what you say you're going to do and when you build that up and then you have integrity in the subconscious when you're walking out in that octagon,

you're telling yourself, I'm good, I'm going to win, I'm going to do this. If you've been lying to your subconscious the whole time, like, okay, I'm going to go, I'm going to go run for 60 minutes on the treadmill, seven miles an hour. And then you stop at 55.

Your subconscious remembers that lie. You said you're going to do this and you didn't. So now you're walking in the cage and you're saying, I know I'm going to do good and I'm going to win. And subconsciously, that lizard brain inside is like, bro, look, you don't do what the fuck you say you're going to do.

You know, like that's kind of some deep shit, but I think that's the root of confidence right there. It's just piles of evidence that you do what you say you're going to do. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. It's good points all the way around and like I said, I will be interesting. I don't know how we end up on Connor there. I know how we ended up on Connor.

It was not on purpose, though. People always say, you always talk shit about Connor. I think I'm dude, I'm excited for Connor to come back and hope it looks incredible. I like Chandler as well. I have no horse in this race, to be honest with you, because I like both guys. But we've had that question. I think it's legitimate. I mean, I think you can't not ask that question about Connor.

What Connor is going to come back. I mean, he's been away for three years, broken leg, all these kind of things. We've got a million questions asked between now and UFC 303. But I like that about the confidence. It's interesting. It's very interesting points and getting more into mindset. That's where when I look at Chandler, I don't know him personally. I know him a little bit.

But when I look at him, like, you see a lot of confidence. coming out of him. But it seems to me like his confidence is a real confidence where it's like, it's like that motherfucker gets it done. Like he put him to extra work. Connor's confidence again, for the longest time

seemed very real because he said he was going to do it and he went and he fucking did it. Right? So then it just boosted it even more and more until it went too far. And now I get the feeling that there's probably no way that

somewhere deep in that brain of his, there's a worm of doubt digging holes through his mind. Yeah. Yeah, that would be interesting. There's a lot of, I mean, we'll find out more and more as we'll lead into the fight. And again, there's, you know, we'll only find out so much because I've talked to a million fighters who tell me before the fight,

oh, yeah, my weight's great. I'm doing fine. Camp is awesome. And then, you know, afterwards, like, yeah, it was the shittiest weight cut of my life. My camp was terrible. I was going to this, going to that. So, yeah, the outward facing confidence is different than,

reality. So yeah, maybe we'll find out in the fight itself. Does just Connor look like Connor or does Chandler go out there and start him and you say, well, maybe Connor didn't have that. So we'll see. I guess we'll find out a little closer to that fight. We were on the Porreye Islam fight and

we're talking about, you know, them having you know, these hard training partners and you know, the point is that may or may not be as big of a factor, I think as people may have been. Like, they come from great camps. the point is how they train within those great camps

is going to make all the difference. The fact is we've seen Islam and Dustin can come in at top shape with full confidence feeling great. The big question that I have is, you know, how is Dustin's confidence going to be, being that he's already fought Islam and got submitted pretty badly.

Yeah, yeah, it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out. I'm fascinated by that match. So we've only got to wait a couple more weeks to get here and we'll find out how it's all going to play out. Now, Matt, before we get out of here, I got like two things real quick. I want to touch on before we get out here. And I hope I'm not putting you on the spot here

because I've known you for a lot of years. I want to go to a big preamble about our history together. But, like, every time we're like just hanging out or talking and it's not about M.MA, I find out something new about you. And it's always fascinating. I remember years ago when you told me the story, this goes back a long, long ways, when you told me the story about you being there,

the concert at the night when Dyebegg Darrell from Paril Pan Pantera got shot and killed at Al Rosa Vila here in Columbus, Ohio. We've known each other for a long point going into that. And you told me that story. I was like, holy shit, you were there? I had tickets to that show. We've had this conversation before. But I got tagged on Twitter because we always do our little ask the immortal segment every now and again on the show.

And I got tagged on Twitter. And somebody's like, Damon, you've got to ask him about this. And I didn't see the thread. Somebody tagged me now. You may be saving this for your own podcast, but I'm putting you on the spot because I got to know this story. Somebody tagged me and said, please God ask him about this. And somebody asked you when you were talking about it. a time early in your life, and you've been very open about your early life, the trouble you

get into, two things you got into, and somebody asks you, you ever get into any prison squabbles while you're in there? And you said, it was jail, not prison. I never got into any fights, but I teetered on the edge of getting murdered by a prison queen. I'll have to tell that story sometime. Now, if you want to save it for, like, the debut Immortal podcast, I'll understand, but somebody tagged me like, please, Damon, ask him about this. That's how I found out about it. I missed the tweet originally. Somebody's like, please ask him about this. So are you willing to share the story about the time you almost got shanked in jail? Yeah, absolutely.

So I got sentenced to six months in the Green County jails, and it was a brand new jail. I've never been in a jail like this before. There's 60 prisoners or whatever you want to call them to a pod, right? So 60, there's a lot of motherfuckers in a single pod. But within, because I got sentenced to six months, it was the first like two or three days i got on the kitchen squad um i don't even know why i can't remember what you call it the now the um kp like they have a certain term for you know when you're

when you're in jail and you get to um you know you work in the kitchen right but one of the things i was wanted to do was kind of prove to the the whole jail like let everybody know straight away you know, they're not going to be fucking with me, right? I want to, like, you know, prove myself right away. So I'm handing out trays one day, and I picked this one guy who was, you know, look like kind of a mean dude and everything. And, you know, and he was a little bit bigger than most of the guy. So I was like, all right, I'm going to let him know, like, he ain't getting food today, right?

So he walks, he comes up and I said, I was like, go on. You ain't getting no, no tray, right? and he just looked at me. He's like, okay. And I was like, oh shit. Like, well, that didn't work. You know, I kind of wanted to like get into it with him a little bit, right? Well, later on that day, I got moved pods and I was in the pod with him, like literally

the same day. They moved me over to his pod. Well, I'm sitting there and, you know, he's not even looking at me or anything, you know, but I thought like, you know, we're going to end up fucking getting into it at some point, I mean, he was a big dude, you know, so I was like, I was like, you know, kind of preparing myself. So I'm kind of watching him, but he's not even paying attention to me. And finally, this guy come up and he's like, he's like, bro, you fucked with the wrong dude. And I was like, what do you mean?

He's like, so that guy is a prison queen. Now, most people probably don't know what prison queen means. What that means is he's married to men in prison and he does not want to leave prison. like his entire life is in prison like all of his husbands or whatever right and he's like he's like bro like he's absolutely going to stab you in your sleep because he does not care one bit about being in prison like he's lived his whole life in prison it was like do not sleep tonight so that's the main part of story like i just ended up he never did stab me obviously but I stayed up for about three or four days and finally I ended up getting

moved pods again because I was just freaking out the whole time. And I didn't sleep for, like I said, at least three or four days. And I just finally requested, I was like, dude, can I just get to a different pod? Because they didn't work. And they will let me do it because I was, you know, behaving and everything. Did you ever, did you ever talk to the guy again? Like, did you ever like? Okay.

So I never, I didn't talk to him again ever. And, you know, he never did anything. you know, maybe it's a close call, maybe not, maybe they exaggerated. But funny enough, his cousin or his brother, I forget now, this is a long time ago, but a family member of his was also a prison queen. He was like the most popular tattoo artist in town. And I ended up going with a friend of mine while this guy, he was released for about a month or so. So basically like when he was released, like everybody would go get tattoos from him.

you know, the dude was absolutely amazing. And he would only use prison guns. You know, he wouldn't use like professional equipment. And he did ridiculously good tattoos. So I was sitting there just talking to him, you know, while he was tattooing a friend of mine. And I didn't know. We just, we were talking about jail and stuff. And he ended up telling me, yeah, my, I forget brother or cousin, whatever is a prison queen.

And I was like, is his name, you know, whatever the guy's name was? he's like yeah that's my like brother or cousin I was like oh shit we started talking about and I was like would he have killed me he was like he's killed more than one man before yeah

I was like oh shit yeah and yeah that's about it man so you tried to you tried to play you tried to do the old like go to prison you got to show him who's boss and it almost backfired

almost backfired very badly yeah How old were you at that point when you were when you were there? 20, 21. So they're pretty young. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I've always had the mentality. Like when I come into a new room, like I got to let people know.

Especially when I was young. Like I'm a little bit more mature about it now, right? But when I was young, you know, if I went to a party and, you know, like a big party, like I would usually try to fuck with the biggest dude there, you know, like, like, just a, you know, the culture that I grew up in, which is different, you know, like, that's what we did was fight. There was, you know, my population of 200 in my town. The big town, to me was the big city.

It had a population of like, I think, 15,000 or something, you know, very, very small cities. And that's just the way we lived, you know, like, like, I was trying to explain this to a friend of mine the other day when I was talking to it was like, the way that I grew up, because my kids have never even seen a fight in their school. They're in seventh grade and they've never even seen a fight and this blew me away and I was and uh this friend that I know who's is much younger trains in my gym and he was and he was surprised that I was surprised and I was like I was like dude there was literally a fight every week at our school like we met we had a specific meeting spot right like that's what you did I mean there was a in school there was fights and

After school, there was fights. It was like everybody, like they talked about, or they talk about bullies all the time. I was like, when we grew up, like, everybody bullied. Like, I got bullied. And then when I got bigger, I bullied others. Like, that was the hierarchy. That was the game. Like, if you're bigger and stronger, you bully.

Like, you know what I mean? You push around the smaller kids. I got pushed around, you know, and I fought back. You know, I pushed around. They fought back. You know, that was just the way that it was. I never thought anything of it. But anyway, my point is, you know, so when I was younger, I would go into a room and that's just what you did, right?

You got to, I just thought that's the way my mind operated was, you know, we test each other. Like, let's find out who's the baddest dude. I got to let everybody know I'm not going to be the bitch here. I did the same thing when I went to the ultimate fighter house. That was actually a lot of people don't know that when I, when me and Jeremy May got into it, this kind of infamous scene with him putting the lime juice in my dip and everything. Like, that was actually. actually very early on.

That was like the first week that we were in the house. And I didn't actually care that he did it. Like it was kind of actually kind of a funny joke, you know. But it was a fact that like I was like, I'm not going to be a sheep in this room house full of lions. I got to let these motherfuckers know. You ain't touching none of my shit. You know what I mean?

I think I made the point pretty clear. But you did. You did. You did. Yeah, that's funny. No, you're right. I grew up in the same thing. Like in my school,

if we went a week without a fight, it was weird. Like, you know, like at least one. And I'll be honest, like I had very similar. My graduating class was 95. There were always like eight or nine guys always fighting in some mix of them. Like it wasn't like the entire class fighting, but there was always like eight or nine guys that were like some mixture of them were always fighting.

But there was at least one fight a week. I remember one time there was a fight. We had a basketball court and then we had the balcony that like kind of like hung over top of it, you know, and we were, I care what was going on. like it was like a pepper rally or something was going on. So we had like a stage, the basketball court, and then seats down to bottom. And then we had like an actual balcony. And everyone always rushed to go up in the balcony because you could fuck around up there because no one would, like they wouldn't say anything because you couldn't hear it down on the stage.

So like everyone rushed to go to the balcony because we could fuck around and talk and do whatever we wanted during this pep rally or meeting, whatever it was. And these two guys got into a fight. And these guys fought all the time. I think during high school they had to fight at least eight times during like four years of high school. and they started fighting one of them was about ready to go over the fucking balcony and we're like that's when like everyone stepped in like pulled them apart because like one of the dudes was literally going to chuck the other guy over the balcony and we're like all right we're not going to let you kill each other

so we pulled them apart and then they stopped fighting and and everything was good everyone got pulled apart and then they agreed to meet later that day in the little secret spot you're talking about they fought again that was just normal like you would not go a week without like there be a hallway fight or a classroom fight or a gym fight Like it was just very normal. Yeah, it was a, like I said, that we had a, I still remember in high school, it was a church parking lot that everybody would meet at after school.

And we were either smoking weed, drinking beer, smoking cigarettes, or fighting, or a mixture, you know, some sort of mixture of all of them. And I'd say a lot of times I was one of the guys in those fights, you know. And I would argue that maybe there was a little piece of that that prepared me for fighting in front of others later. Like it didn't bother me quite as much

because, you know, when you start talking about it, by, you know, by lunchtime, you know, it gets around the whole school, right? Like, we're meeting after, you know, the whole school, of course, everybody wants to fucking show up. You get the whole school there and you're like, you're basically doing a UFC fight

and, you know, in front of the school. Yeah, well, I'm very happy you didn't get shanked in prison. That probably would have set your life in a totally different trajectory. ended up because I mean that's that's I I my brother I my brother was a was a was a pretty high ranking prison guard and like I heard stories all the time of like the badass guy that would show up in in the you know it's it's the it's the TV thing like oh yeah you got to show up there and you got to you got to stay in your ground or become someone's bitch like that was like the joke and so

he's like yeah guys would come in and do that and then they would stop doing that real fucking quick because like you you're you should you can be the toughest man in the world you're not tougher than eight guys with shanks. Like you're not tougher than six guys with with pillowcases filled with stuff that they're going to beat you to death with. Like you can be as tough as you want to be, but you're still outnumbered by like 10 to 1 in a gang or whatever.

So yeah, it's like everyone has... Be fair, on that point, you're talking about prison. Jail. Yeah, yeah. Realistically, like, you know, I did about three and a half months and I didn't do my whole six, but after I don't know, it was only a few weeks. You kind of realized.

like no one in here is dangerous like this is jail this isn't prison everybody wants to get the fuck out of here now there were some guys like him for instance where this was an intermediary where they were on there you know maybe for on trial about probably about to go to prison or whatever and those were occasionally dangerous but again 9.9 out of 10 of the people you know it's a fucking DV charge or you know driving or you know these motherfuckers just want to get out, right? They're not trying to stay in any longer than they have to. Jail's fucking miserable. You know, they're just trying to get the fuck out of it. Even the guys going to prison. They want to get the fuck out of jail and go to the prison. It's just a terrible fucking ordeal. They just

want to get the fuck out of there. So, you know, I kind of realize that later. And I was like, you know, I mean, you know, there's still a little bit of hierarchical, hierarchical battle. You know, there's a battle for hierarchy still to some extent. You know, guys are going to test you and push you. That's just the nature of having that many males in a room, you know, especially, you know, 24 hours a day, right? It's just the nature. But it's very rare. Like, most of them are just fucking losers that want to get out.

Yeah, it's funny. I followed this dude on TikTok and I actually interviewed him. He was in prison for 19 years. And while he was there, he became a jiu-jitsu enthusiast. He, like, basically self-taught himself. like it was a great way for an outlet and like they started training and it was just a great like way to learn it became a martial arts fan because they could watch UFC they had TVs they were able to watch UFC he got out now he trains jiu jitza like he actually does we were talking about

that for the story but i followed him on tic-tok and he just told prison stories all the time like how they eat and all the different things they do but the one thing he got across is he's like yeah what you see on tv isn't real is like most guys in prison they're not there to fuck with you they're not there to be fucked with like they just want to be left alone you know he's like the biggest beefs that broke out in prison were guys who had like gambling debts like they would lose money and then not pay it or they'd borrow money for drugs and not pay it and that would get them in trouble you get the beat up or stabbed or whatever but he's like generally speaking there's not like five guys walking around like trapping you in a cell and doing horrible things to you or turning you

into their bitch or whatever like all the tv stuff he's like that just he's like it just it's not that way dude everyone's there to do their time and he's like yes there are people there who are there for life sentences and they're not getting out but that doesn't really mean they want to be in solitary. That doesn't mean they want to be locked down. Like, they still want to have like as normal of a life as they could have in prisons. They're not looking to start trouble so they can get sent to like a max secure or whatever. You know, like they're just there to live their lives. Like they're not there to, you know, he's like, what you see on TV is not real. Yeah, a lot of it also depends on like which prison you're at too.

You know, there's, sure. Yeah, there's like minimum, maximum and medium or whatever security. And there's, you know, I don't know how other states work, but here we have the one that it's, like 23 hour lockdown called Orient you know there's so many a lot of different types of prisons you know the ones that we see on TV are usually like the ones

with the gangs you know it's usually maximum security you know these guys are completely fucked and their brains already so fucked that they they don't care of it like they've already done so much solitary they don't even give a fuck about solitary anymore like I had I don't remember why but I had to do like

a week of solitary confinement when I was in jail. And like you do, you get kind of used to it. I mean, it drives you fucking nuts, but you get kind of used to it. And,

you know, I think it'll make you more violent, right? Because like, the old saying is like, no hope equals no fear. And you're just like, like,

dude, like my life is nothing now. Like I will fucking kill somebody right now for no reason. Like it doesn't get any worse. So, you know, again, I think it depends on the,

the type of prison. You know, and like most of the, the from what I understand to get out of the prison but like most of the raping goes on with you know the child predators and you know the guys that you know rape and kill her wives and shit and you know and it's just some dude that you know he's just some gay dude that he's like all right well you're some fresh meat you know like you deserve it anyway motherfucker hell yeah I get to have some fun yeah it's uh it's yeah it's uh it's dark it can be dark but

I'm glad you didn't get shank, Matt. I'm glad you didn't get shanked in prison. I saw that, I saw that story. I had to ask him about that story. Someone tagged me, like, please ask him about this story. And I was like, I'm going to ask him. I was like, because I want to know too. I was legitimately curious.

Like, I had no idea you almost got murdered in prison. That's interesting. Yeah, well, I said, a lot of times the shorter version makes it sound better than it actually is. I mean, that's still terrifying, no, because you know, like, when you hit the guy in the train, he's like, okay. You're like, oh, shit. Like, this is, this isn't the reaction. I thought I was going to get.

No, I knew something was up right there. I knew that was really easy and this dude's a complete bit or I'm probably getting murdered. I at least something told you so you slept with one eye over the next few nights and got the hell out of there. I slept with both eyes open. I remember, actually, I still remember like going on kitchen duty and and sleeping like in the bathroom.

because I'm you know if I could catch you sleep it obviously you're not going to be on kitchen do it anymore so I would just go into the restroom and sit down toilet and close my eyes for like 20 minutes at a time dude that's terrifying I mean that's what I said that's like terrifying stuff I was like yeah that dude that dude doesn't care if he gets a murder charge like he ain't worried about getting rid of your dumb ass like he's just going to like all right that's just Tuesday for him that's like all right it's Tuesday I'm gonna shake this dude and be done with it because he didn't give me my dinner exactly exactly So, you know, I always wondered, it'd be cool, like, if I could ever meet him and ask him, like, like, you know, what were you doing at nighttime?

Like, did you know that I was awake? Because, like, you know, I didn't see him, like, moving around or anything, you know, but it's like, you know, he wanted to do something. You know what I mean? I was, what was, what were you planning, bro? How close did I actually come to dying that day? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it would be a cool little interview, right? Boarding for flight 246 to Toronto is delayed 50 minutes. Ugh, what?

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Yeah, that's wild, though. Like, like I said, that's the scary thing. Like, in that moment, you know, when you say that dude's there and he's locked down, that's his life, he didn't want to go anywhere, then, yeah, he didn't give a shit. Like, you didn't care if he's got to stab you. Like, that's just his business. And, yeah, that's terrifying. I can only imagine, like, all right, let's go.

And he's just like, okay, walks away. You're like, oh, shit. This isn't going to end well. Yeah, but it ended well. Yeah, so there you go. There you go. Well, and three and a half months later you got out. And was that your last, was that the last time you were I went to jail?

No. Okay, but here's the funny story about how I actually got out in three and a half months. So I'm just sitting there one day and they literally just call my name. And they're like, Matt Brown, pack your stuff. And I was like, what? So anyway, you know, I packed my stuff. And I have nowhere to go, right? So I just, I get out and I walked.

I think it must have been a good, you know, two hours of walking to get to my friend's house, like, you know, five, ten miles away or something. I'll finally get there. And then anyway, the next morning, I called my probation officer. And I was like, because what I was in jail for was a probation violation, right? So I called my probation officer. And I was like, am I still on probation? Because I didn't serve all my time.

And she looked up on the computer and she was like, according to our system, you're still in jail right now. Oh, no. Like, you need to go see the judge, like, immediately. So I went and seen the judge, and, and again, I was in a brand-new jail. So I'd go see the judge, and she explained, she said, well, apparently there was a system mess-up somewhere, and you were let out on accident. But since you came to me, and we didn't have to, like, track you down or anything, then we'll let you go. That way we don't have to re-book you. Like, you already got out.

You did fine when you're in there, everything. So I just got out, missed two and a half months of my jail time on accident. Hey, there you go. Worked out. And you didn't get killed. So it worked out. I guess while I'm going to go ahead and tell the story of the last time I was in jail. Please do.

Please do. I want to hear this one. I didn't go to jail for about 10, yeah, about 10 years. That was the last time I was in jail. and then, you know, I finally got 10 years where I wasn't going to jail. And I'd done straight down my life and I fixed everything up. And so I'm on my way to Vermont from Ohio to get married, right? We got married on the top of a ski resort in Vermont.

It was actually like one of the most badass weddings ever and one of the stupidest days in my life on retrospect. It was a badass wedding. But halfway there, you know, I got my two kids in the back there about two years. years old time two boys twins about halfway there i said okay we're going to stop halfway okay halfway was Niagara falls we never seen Niagara Falls let's check it out so put in the GPS the GPS takes us to Canada well uh it's on the peace bridge and once you get on the peace bridge which you know accidentally I didn't realize I'm just following GPS and then I'm like wait a minute we're on our way to

Canada like we're not going to Canada then you can't turn around so you have to go all the way to the border and go turn around. Well, I had some guns in the car. Oh, no. We get to the border and they ask if I have any guns in the car. I'm like, no, I'm just turning around, right? And they're like, okay, you can turn around, but we have to search your car first. So I pull up and I throw the guns in between diapers and the diaper bag real quick. And they search the car and everything's actually going good. Like I seen them look at the diaper bag. They didn't see the guns. But then they get to the glove compartment. I left one bullet in there somehow. So the guy, he goes, hey, what's this? And I was like, I don't know, you know, like, I guess some leftover, whatever. So he calls out like 10 other people.

He's like, we've got to strip your whole car down, bro. And I was like, I'll just tell you. Look, there's guns in there. Like, so I get arrested there in Canada. They put me in fucking me and my kids all in this fucking cell right there at the border. My kids is a funny thing because I'm in one cell. Mom and the kids are in this other cell. And they're two years old. They keep pulling the fire extinguisher

or fire alarm button. And like every two minutes of fucking fire alarms going off. But we're sitting there for like two hours. Finally, you know, they let them go. And I end up going to jail in Canada for seven days. Oh, my gosh. get charged with international smuggling of firearms, which is a mandatory seven-year sentence, like mandatory.

And come to find out while I'm in there, too. A bunch of people have done this exact same thing. There's a bunch of truckers in there from America. On the news, there was someone that had done it, like some college kid, like literally on the news while I'm sitting in there. There's like four or five other people in there for the same thing. But they've been in there for six months now. waiting for trial because they don't have the fucking bail money.

My bail money is like $20,000. So I have to call my uncle. And, you know, he come, rescued me, you know, bail me out. Anyway, I'm in there for seven days. Well, fortunately, you know, our wedding was 10 days out. So I get out of jail. And I walk straight. The day that I get to Vermont,

I walked straight to the fucking wedding. Didn't have to set a damn thing up. It actually worked out. Didn't have to say anything up, talk to nobody. I just got dressed and walked to the fucking aisle. But anyway, over, you know, $30,000 of lawyers and the UFC was working with me. They were actually very beneficial helping me out and everything. And everything got completely dismissed.

I go to Canada fine now, no problem. It's completely off my record and everything. But so it actually, in some respects, other than the financial part, it worked out because I didn't have to hang out with her family for a week or, you know, set up for a wedding. I just slept in a jail. So I actually made some friends in there. And I still, I actually still talk to one guy still today. I got to go straight there, get married, party, come back home.

Boy, that's, that makes me a little bit more scared of what happened to me because I crossed the border into Canada one time. And I was coming as a week after I had gone to a friend's wedding. I was a groomsman in a wedding. You know, when you're, when you get married, the, the, the, uh, the groom. gives all the groomsmen like presents. The groom was a redneck. And so he gave all the groomsmen buck knives,

like the flip-up buck knives as presence. And I had stuck it in the side pocket of my little carry-on duffel bag. And so like the next weekend we were going to Canada to go gambling and have fun during college. Completely forgot I had the knife in there. We were driving up and I'm like, look at it through the bag. I'm like, oh, shit, I forgot to get this knife out. They didn't think anything of it. My idiot friend pulls into the can pass lane.

where you have like the license where you can travel things you travel back and forth constantly. We obviously don't have that pass. So we pull in that lane. They're like, yeah, you can't go in this lane. Like this is the campus. You have to pull over here. And so are they, all right. And so they're like, we're going to have to search your vehicle.

And so I'm like, oh shit. And he's like, do you guys have any weapons or anything? And like, I'm just like, I just come clean. I'm like, yeah, I was like, I went to a wedding. My friend got me a buck knife. It's over there. It's in the bag. And so they take us inside and sit us down.

They search the car. They find a knife. They come in. sit there for about four hours. And I'm like, I'm getting arrested. Like, I brought a knife into Canada and I'm getting arrested. Ends up, they give me a ticket. I had to pay a $250 fine

right then and there, and they had to chuck the knife away. They wouldn't give me the knife back. And they threw the knife way and I paid a $250 fine. But for like the next like two or three years every time I went into Canada, they see my license and I got flagged and they had to pull me over and search me every single time. But I got scared straight in that moment because

they're like, you know, I'm like, we're saying they're talking to people. They're like, yeah, you can get arrested for that up here. like, oh shit. Like, it was, I mean, it was completely accidental. I didn't mean to do it. And I even told the guy. But, yeah, I did a $250 fine and a ticket. And I had my license flag for, I don't know, five years after.

Every time I went to Canada, I had to get pulled over and searched. But, yeah, it was scary, though. Glad to know it didn't go worse for me. So you were almost an international smuggler of weapons. I was. I was totally by accident, too. It was just so bizarre. But, yeah, like, I was like, I completely forgot.

I had this buck knife in my carry on him, a little thing. I was like, oh yeah, I forgot to take that out. And then my idiot friend pulled in the wrong lane. Otherwise, we would have gone through without a problem, and never one would ever know. But he pulls in the wrong lane like a dumb ass. And they're like, yeah, you got to pull over and get searched now. And we're like, oh, geez. And I was at that, I was cutting knives through him during that entire thing.

I was like, dude, you pulled in the wrong lane. I'm going to fucking kill you. You pulled in the wrong lane. Yeah, it cost you $250. $250. I lost the knife. And that little engraving got our names on and everything. I was like, yeah, you had to chuck in the trash.

and they actually made me do it. They're like made me throw it in the trash. I don't know why, but... Canada's some fucking dicks with that shit, man. Like, I was just turning around. I said, why don't you just fucking let me turn around? I'm not coming into Canada, motherfuckers. Again, I'm in jail talking to a lot of people.

And even the officers themselves, they told me they're like, bro, we catch people with this shit all the time. Like, it's... They didn't straight come out and say it, but they're like, it's basically a scheme. They're like they love that because no one thinks they're going to get searched because they're just trying to turn around. Yeah. Now was Canadian jail better than American jail?

It's exactly the same. Like the only thing that sucked was so I don't remember exactly why this happened, but they moved me from the first night. I kept getting moved from jail to jail. And I kept getting to the next one right after breakfast, then right after lunch. And last one, I got there right after dinner. And so finally, I just asked the deputy, you know, the one I was staying the night at, so I was like, can I just have some food? Like, I haven't ate all day.

You know, I'm sleeping on a, like, because I'm not there permanently or for a long time, they don't give you, you know, a decent cot or, you know, I got like, you know, one of those blankets with fucking holes in it and shit, you know. So I'm like, freezing cold. I'm starving. And she's like, yeah, you know, I'll bring some food. She said, as a matter of fact, I'm ordering some. Dunkin' Donuts.

She's like, you know, I kind of feel bad for you. I'll bring you a sandwich. Well, I could see her in a mirror. And about 10 minutes later, I could smell the Dunkin' Donuts and I could see her in the mirror. And I said, Deputy, Deputy. And she never fucking replies. I'm like, Deputy, he doesn't even look at me. I'm just like, I'm smelling it.

And she's basically just saying big fuck you to me. But okay, so then the exact same thing happens on court day. When I'm getting a rain, again, I miss breakfast. They take me. And then I end up sitting somewhere. I don't know. I ended up being like 2 o'clock before, you know, I'm sitting there in the court. And I'm just like, I'm like, hey, like, is there any way I could get like any kind of fucking sandwich or something?

Like, I haven't ate anything all day. I'm like, yeah, we'll bring you a cheese sandwich. And they brought me a fucking cheese sandwich with fake cheese. I don't know that. I still remember that. I got fucking baked cheese fucking sandwich. I'm like, it might have been better

if you just brought me nothing just told me to fuck off, you know? Does it set you off every time you smell Dunkin' Donuts? Not like, man, I can't believe

that she didn't give me a sandwich. I fucking hate Dunkin' Donuts anyway. Well, you know what? I bet you that was the last lesson you need to say, I don't want to go back to jail again. Yeah, yeah. I think the first one was probably enough, but that definitely

I mean compared to you know not getting the Dunkin' Donuts sandwich versus almost getting shanked in prison not quite the same they're both pretty miserable to be honest yeah yeah I mean Canada jail honestly like it was identical

like you wouldn't even know the difference man but the we all know Canadians are polite so even in jail all the prisoners were polite as fuck and they all recognized me actually like it was you know i was in the ufc by that point obviously so everybody in there like they fucking loved it bro they're all just asking me questions

all day and you know asking me more stories and shit and like hey can you show me this move and maybe the one actually we were just talking about earlier like the one guy was like dude can you leg kick me man i just want to see it feels like so totally different from the guy who's like yeah you better not sleep tonight like you're gonna get fucking murdered in there you better not sleep tonight yeah then you go to can I'm like, hey, bro, can you leg kick me? I'm polite, bro. I'm polite.

You got to give it to them. I love it. I love it. Well, that was tales from prison with, tales from jail with Matt Brown. Oh, man, good stuff, good stuff. Yeah, someone tagged you on that Twitter. It's like, I got, when you say you almost got to shake by prison queen, I got to know this story. I got to hear this story.

So thank you for sharing. I'm sure I want to love this. As always, this is actually an MMA show, but we had to talk about, we had to have a jail today. It was very worthwhile because the stories I don't. never heard either so I want to hear these stories too. I want to say thank you. Everyone that tunes in each every week to the show. Maybe we'll hear more tales of Matt's past on the show going for. You never know.

There's always new things, new layers to peel back. Like I said, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I didn't know he was at Dimebag Daryl's concert. So you never know what you're going to learn on this show. Matt, what do you got going on? Where can people show support for you? At I'm Immortal Instagram and Twitter, the Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. Check out the Immortal Coffee. at The Immortal Coffee.

Check out at Try underscore Create, the best creating gummies in the world at Redwood Outdoor CEO, the best sonnas in the motherfucking world. And I got to get back in that sauna tomorrow. I've been sick as hell for like three and a half weeks now. And I ain't even sonned in like almost a month now because I've been so damn sick.

So I'm ready to get the fuck back in there this week. Love it. Full circle real quick before we go. I got to ask, when you were at that dinner on your date and your highlight reel came up on the TV. Did anyone else in the restaurant come over and be like, hey, it's Matt Brown?

My body, bro. Not a single one, yeah. I wonder. I've been to dinner when I've gone to events and, like, been out with celebrities and I'm always, like, quietly like, look who's over there. But I never go talk. Never want to bother him.

So, like, I wonder if they're just like, yeah, let's not. He looks like he's on a date right now. Let's not go over and talk to him right now. Yeah, I might have been quite as recognizable either. Like, he was a busy restaurant. And I was, uh, I'm obviously, like, dressed a little differently. you know on a date and shit so yeah yeah they're like this doesn't look like matt brown the savage got to impress her a little bit yeah this isn't the guy dropping elbows on eric silver's head

in that highly video i always say bro people don't know i'm a romantic motherfucker bro i guess all kinds of fucking romance in there bro i love it yeah many layers the many layers of matt brown uh as always everyone we appreciate tuning in to the fighter versus the writer uh make sure check us on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and of course over on the best website in the world, MMAFighting.com. We'll be back next week with another addition to the fighter versus the writer. Thanks so much for tuning in.

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