MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer | Matt Brown: People Are ‘Overreacting’ To Aspen Ladd’s Coach

Episode Date: October 19, 2021

Matt Brown returns to co-host the new episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer while previewing his upcoming fight against Bryan Barberena and how much setting records in the UFC actually matters to him. He will also react to the controversy this past weekend after Aspen Ladd's head coach Jim West was criticized for the advice he dished out during her fight with Norma Dumont, plus does the UFC have a responsibility to punish Jon Jones and Conor McGregor after their recent actions? All this and much more. Follow Damon Martin @DamonMartin Follow Matt Brown @IAmTheImmortal Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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IKEA, bring home to life. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the Fighter versus the Rider. I am your host, Damon Martin, and I am joined once again by my good friend and one of the baddest welterways. on the planet. The Immortal Matt Brown. Matt, welcome back. How are you? Very good. Thanks for having me back, brother. Of course, of course. This is going to be a regular thing. For those that don't remember, of course, you and I co-hosted a podcast for a number of years under several different names.

Let's see, there was legit manship. There was the great MMA debate. There was fights inside. We had a lot. We were kind of like, we didn't really settle on one name, but we did a podcast for like three years together. Yeah, yeah. We kind of never. settled on what it was right like it was just it kind of went all over the place but we had a lot of fun with it and stirred up some noise here and there yeah so that's what we're doing now we're going to stir up more mess and have some fun so you will be you'll be a regular co-host on this here program and of course since last time we spoke uh you co-hosted episode two since last we spoke you booked

a new fight coming up in December you got it man what episode are you on now uh this is episode i believe nine okay so haven't missed too much yeah Yeah, you're back. Like I said, you're in the rotation. Yeah, but yeah, getting right for this fight in December. Yeah, that's been taking up a lot, all my time, man. Been training hard and just getting prepared, man. I got tough guy in front of me.

Underrated guy, man. I think Barbarina, you know, so I'm fighting, Brian Barbarina. You know, he's telling a lot of people that that's who I'm fighting. They're like, I've never seen him fight. But I've seen him fight. And that guy can fight, man. he is a tough son of a bitch. Yeah, that dude, that dude is well known for going to war.

Like, that's kind of his thing. Like, he's just an incredibly tough guy. It's hard to peg down where he's good in terms of, like, he's just kind of like a jack-of-all-trades. But the one thing you can always say about Brian Barbarina is he's incredibly durable, incredibly tough guy. And that's always a challenge, right? Like, I've talked, I remember when Roy Nelson was on that run where it just seemed like you couldn't knock the guy out. And it could be a little disheartening when you're hitting the guy with everything you got and he just doesn't go down. So you have to, that's a certain mentality to go into a fight like that, right?

Yeah, I mean, you know, I personally don't really look too much about my opponent and what they're all about and what they're going to do. I mean, but, you know, I could just kind of look at the basic fundamentals and what, again, I mean, you hit the nail around the head. That's what we know about Brian Barbarina. He's a tough guy to put down. He's a tough guy to stop. I don't know if he's ever been stopped. Yeah, well, Lucke stopped him. you know he's just a tough guy all around he's going to be there the whole three rounds the whole

fight until you put him out so but for me you know I'm focused on myself man I'm going to try to get myself in the best shape that I can and be at the top of my game and you know I've said a million times man I know when I do that like I can beat anybody and um I haven't always put enough emphasis on doing that but when I do do that I can beat anybody yeah Now, this fight's happening at the apex, right? It's a fight, and I don't pay, okay. Any disappointment, you don't get the crowd back? Yeah, yeah, that sucks, man.

You know, it is what it is. I'm not going to think about it, not going to let it break me down, nothing. But, man, when I watch these cards now with the crowd, I'm like, God, I miss that so much. When they told me it was on the apex, yeah, it hurt a little bit. But, you know, you got to get in there and get it done. and, you know, I go in there and put on a good win. Maybe they'll put me on a car with some fans next. Yeah.

Yeah, I know you're, I mean, you're always a fan favorite. I mean, that's kind of thing. When Matt Brown fights, we know what we're getting out of a Matt Brown fight. Like, there's pretty much no questions asking. I mean, I think there's, there's something, there's only a handful of guys like that. Like, when they matched up Robbie Lawler and Nick Diaz, even though it had been 17 years since their last fight,

like we all knew kind of what we, even though Nick had been out for so long, we all kind of went in and saying, you know what, this is going to be a fun fight. There's certain guys that you just kind of know. Like Vicente Lucke is another. Every time I talk to Vicente, I'm like, dude, I appreciate you doing these interviews,

but really we don't need to say anything. When you fight, we just know what we're getting. Like with Matt Brown, we know what we're getting. It's going to be a fun fight. Even if it lasts like 30 seconds, it's going to be a fun fight. Yeah, it sucked it. Nick came in and just out of shape or I don't know what he was doing, man. He looked in a dad-bod.

I mean, yeah, he looked terrible, man. But he goes out there in fights. He scraps. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like you said, yeah, he went out there and fought. It was a great fight. I just wish he would have been in really good shape. And, you know, he didn't look sharp as usual, I thought.

Just didn't look himself. And I would have liked to see that, man. I would like see him and Robbie at their best. And Robbie looked really good. And Nick just simply didn't, in my opinion. Yeah. Like I said, there's guys that just show. up. Robbie's, I think Robbie also, I think that kind of got Robbie going because Robbie hadn't

looked at his best, his last few fights either, and then he comes in there and looks really, truly motivated. Like, he was on the attack. He was kind of not doing that his last couple of fights. He was kind of sitting back and waiting, and then he went on the attack. So like it said, and with Brian Barbarina, that's the guy you're not going to have to go hunting for. You kind of know that going in. Yeah, I get the feeling we'll probably have a pretty good war. You know, I think he'll probably be able to take a few shots, take a couple of with licks and um but i'll put them down man yeah i'm always kind of curious with records because this

past weekend jim miller fought and i don't know how well you know jim jim's like the nicest guy i don't know jim's like the nicest guy in the world he's certain he's setting records he's now got the most fights in uc history at 38 he's coming close to the wins record all those kind of things and you know you talk to jim about it and like yeah i mean something but you know he's just he's a very humble guy that doesn't matter but you of course you've got records too with knockouts and things like you added to it with the Diego Lima fight. Does that matter? I'm curious.

Like as a fighter, do you care about the records you set? Not at the time. It's cool to look back or, you know, tell other people about it or brag about a little bit, I guess. You know, tell your kids, you know, things like that's cool. But, you know, deep inside, it doesn't really matter, man. You know, just I'm probably similar in Jim Miller and that.

aspect where, you know, we're just grinders, man. We just love what we do. And we're just happy to get in there and do it. And, you know, I'm going to try to knock someone out, whether it's for a record or not. Yeah, yeah. Well, I know, you know, one thing that you've been doing a lot, you know, in these last couple of years that I know we've talked about it, but just to people know, like, you've started your own gym.

You started coaching guys now. One of your guys, of course, just got into the UFC, AJ Dobson, on the contender series, got a big win, got signed to the UFC. And it's weird because I remember a couple years ago when you talked about retirement. and then you come back from that and like now it just feels like you're more motivated than ever to fight. I know part of that comes from the gym,

part of it comes from work with these other guys, becoming a coach. Like it feels like, and correct me if I'm wrong, it feels like you're more motivated than ever now. Like you love it and you really are more motivated than ever right now. Yeah, I think I love it more than ever. Definitely as motivated as I've ever been. And I take the short time that I technically retire

reminded me how much I love it and not to take it for granted. And we've got a short window to get this done. And I'm blessed to have been able to do this as long as I have. And I just want to keep doing it, man. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird because I think that, like, when you talk to certain people, like, there's no right or wrong way about doing this sport when you do it. And what I mean by that is, like, you hear some guys say,

I know there's people who retired in their early 30s and they've stayed retired. and we see other people go deep into their 40s. Like, there's no right or wrong answer. If you're still peaking at the top of your physical game and you're still loving it, you know, you can do it. You know what I mean? Not everyone's going to have that, though. And so there's no right or wrong answer when it comes to occur.

Because I know, like I said, from talking to you and knowing you and seeing you in the gym, like you feel like almost like Matt Brown 3.0 right now, like in a weird way. Like it feels like you're more motivated now than you were, you know, maybe I'm not saying, like, you know, you were not motivating your 30s. but it feels like you're even more motivated now. I'd say I'm as motivated, maybe more, maybe less. I mean, I don't know exactly how you gauge that, but I feel as good as I ever have, man.

And I feel like my skills are still getting better. I'm still improving. I'm still, everything is on the way up. So I still think there's a lot of big things that I can do out there. I definitely want to have the knockout record. I definitely, you know, want to get some more big. big fights, man. And, you know, I definitely want to fight in front of a fucking crowd again, man.

You know, there's no feeling like that in the world. So, you know, I'm staying at it, man. I'm going, bro. I'm excited, man. I'm excited for the future. I'm excited to get back in there again in December and put on a good show and see how much I've improved, because I think I've improved dramatically. Yeah.

It's funny. I'm kind of curious if you, Jim talked about. this, not to bring back to Jim Miller, he talked about this on Saturday now. He fought a guy who had never been to the UFC before, and won by knockout, real impressive, great win for him. But afterwards, they asked, like, do you mind fighting the new guys? Do you mind fight the legends? He's like, yeah, it's fun to fight the legends, but, you know, I'm here to fight. Like, I like to fight. It doesn't really matter who it is. I'm curious, because Brian, Brian kind of falls in that veteran category. He's been around. He's fought some guys, man. He's a warrior.

But, you know, of course, you had to Ben Saunders fight. You had the Carlos Kahn to fight, Condit, of course, since we last spoke, now since retirement. But you've fought, like, a lot of the legends. I don't know. Does one matter more to you than the other? Would you prefer a Brian Barbarina or a Diego Lima, guys that are veterans, guys have been around,

versus just some, you know, guy maybe making a show as he debut? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I'm kind of with Jim on that. I mean, I just like fighting. I love fighting. I just love being in there. I don't really care who's across the octagon from me

as long as I'm in the octagon. I mean, if I have a choice, like, I'm going to pick the legendary guys just because I like the bigger fight. I like the bigger stage. I like the pressure, things like that. And a lot of times, like these newer guys, like I fought Biazza, you know, and I didn't have any tape on them. I think I've seen like one or two fights and he just knocked him out real quick. And, you know, you don't really know what you're getting. So I think that's the only reason what I would like to fight a guy that's been around.

a little bit longer. But other than that, yeah, I'm kind of with him. I like to be in the octagon. There's no better place in the world. Yeah, absolutely. I know going into this fight, it's all about having the right support around you. I mentioned the gym. You've got a lot of great people you're working with out there at the gym.

It's also about people supporting you outside the cage. And you start working with a new company, too, going into this one that actually I've read about, I've heard about, I've seen it on Twitter. Tell me about these guys. Oh, yeah, you're talking about routine. Routine, yeah. That's a great company. It's helped me a lot.

what they do is they take your blood and your DNA and they actually fine-tune the nutrients. It's basically like a multivitamin with a bunch of nutrients in it, and they fine-tune it to exactly what your body needs. So you're not taking too much of some things and not taking not enough of other things. So rather than just a generic multivitamin or generic. pills that you're taking, you know exactly what you need and you're getting exactly how much you need on a daily basis. So that's been a game changer for me. It's made me feel so much better already. I've only been doing it for like a month, but it's been amazing for me. How crazy is it to think about something like that where they're literally fine-tuning

your vitamins to your specificity, to your blood type, to your body versus like probably when you started fighting. Like, you're rolling out to Walmart picking up the, the central vitamins. Like, it's such a far car, like how far we've come in terms of the way they can fine-tune things for your body when you get ready for a fight. And then also, we've got to be honest, things like this are why you're able to keep going when you're such a veteran. Like, you know what I mean? Like, your body's in tune. Like, I know you're incredible, you're an incredible shape.

And a big part of that comes down to the kind of workouts you're doing, the kind of gym, the things you're doing the gym. But it also comes down to, like, things like this. Yeah, that's exactly. And I mean, I didn't even take vitamins and stuff for the longest time. I just didn't even think about it. I think it was probably only five years ago or so. I started taking like a multivitamin, vitamin D and all these different things. So, yeah, it's pretty amazing now the technology they can do.

And I think you hit the nail right on the head, man. The stuff that we do outside the gym is probably, you know, as important, if not more important, the things we do inside the gym. anybody can go in and do a hard workout and stress your body. And, you know, there's martial arts gyms everywhere. You can go practice your boxing and your boytai, your jiu-jitsu, anywhere. And we're all learning the same stuff. But, you know, that's, you know, four, maybe six hours out of the day if you're a professional athlete like me.

So what are you going to do those other 18, 20 hours out of the day? You know, that's what can really make a difference when you talk about. about the fine tuning of a professional athlete. Yeah, 100%. Well, there's a lot more that goes into the fight we know. As we shift gears out of your fight, Matt, of course, beyond your own fighting, we've talked about this many times. When your fighting career is finally done, whenever that happens,

you are going to shift fully into coaching mode. And as you said many times, you believe when it's all of a sudden done, you'll be a better coach that even you were a fighter. And you're already working with a lot of fighters right now. This past weekend, at the UFC, Vegas 40s, event, Aspen Ladd fought Norma Dumont in the main event. There was a lot of controversy during and after the fight about the corner advice that Aspen Ladd was getting from her coach, who is also her boyfriend, Jim West. And now if you listen to it, BT Sport posts a little

clip of it earlier today. If you listen to the early rounds, there's a lot of technical advice by the third round after kind of a lacking performance from Aspen Lad, her coach kind of ramped things up a little bit. So I'm going to play a little clip. If you missed some of the cordy audio, I know this wasn't the most compelling UFC event in history, so you may not have seen this main event. But let me play a little clip. Now, to be clear, this is just a real clip, a one minute clip. This is from later in the fight. Earlier in the fight, her coach was giving her technical advice when things didn't really start to happen. And if you watch the fight, you know it was a whole lot of not much going on. By the end of the third round, her coach was

pretty adamant about what she needed to do to win the fight. So this is her coach, Jim West, giving her advice in the corner. Here we go. You're down three to zero. Please tell me what you're doing. You have to throw more than one punch. You've got to get into the fight. It's time to fight. It's the fourth round. You're down three to zero. Pick it up. Okay, fight to win. Fight to win every second of every minute of every round. You have to finish this broad now. You're down three to You got to pick it up. That doesn't mean be careless, but lead from the backside and set the combinations up and change your levels.

Continue to try to wear her down. But if you don't pick up the face, she's going to continue to stay on the outside and try to pick you apart with a simple one, two. Okay? That's all she's doing. You've already closed the distance. Hey, I don't, honestly, I don't know what you're doing. You close the distance and you're jumping out.

Like how you finish. I don't know what you're waiting for. What are you waiting for? What are you waiting for? You have cardio through the f*** days. Push the pace. Now you have to. No, you have to go balls to the wall.

Caution to the wind and you gotta go. You're down basically 4-0. You may have won that last round. Either way, you have to finish it. So I don't know what you're doing. You gotta leave every ounce of you out there. All right, so Matt Brown, as a coach, as a fighter, your input is gonna be more valuable than anybody.

What did you make of her corner and are people overreacting to what he said to her. Yeah, at first, I think it's pretty complicated to start off with, especially being with their boyfriend, girlfriend. That makes the situation already more complicated than just a simple coach athlete relationship. But I do think people are overreacting. Now, in between the fourth and the fifth round there, I didn't like where he's kind of saying, you know,

what are you doing, you know, stuff like that. That's certainly not helping anything. But I think he knows that too. I don't think Misha Tate was right in saying it was abuse. I don't think he was being abusive. I think you're probably seen her say that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't go that far.

To be honest, I think that he was trying and just didn't know what to say. And that was sort of his default was to get angry about it. And the one thing that I think where he didn't respect was it was partially about, you know, what Aspen Ladd was not able to do. But a huge part was about what Norman Dumont was able to do. And that's the whole part of that a lot of people are missing. Like she performed really, really good. And you can't take that away from her. Aspen had very few answers for anything that Norma was doing.

And the answers that her coach gave her, even in the earlier rounds, when he was given the more technical advice, really probably wasn't going to change. Even if Aspen would have followed it to the T, it probably wouldn't have changed what was happening. Norma was just too good. for now when he was kind of saying throw caution to the wind. I like that. You know, I think he was right on with things like that. But, you know, it's hard to, it's easy first to criticize him sitting here.

But, you know, it's a difficult situation that he was in. And I do think people are overreacting, I think is the easiest way to say it. But, um, You know, I think he certainly could have done better, and hopefully he learns from that and does better. Yeah. Here's my thing. First of all. I want to hear your side of this.

First. You're going to be really critical. Yeah. Well, no, actually, I'm going to be critical to people, people reacting overreacting to him. Okay. I think, listen, first of all, it's not a one-size-fits-all with cornering. It's just not. I mean, what one fighter needs from their coach is not what the next fighter needs.

That's a relationship between the coach and fighter. What you need as a fighter in the corner, Matt Brown, is maybe not what Aspen Ladd needs in the corner. You know what I mean? Like, that's not, there's not a one-size-fits-all. I made a mistake when Lauren Murphy was fighting Valentina Shochinko, and she was just not there. She just wasn't there.

And her coach, who was also her husband. Her head coach had gotten, like, COVID protocol. He couldn't get in the building. So her husband, who was like her jiu-jitsu coach, had to kind of shift into, like, head coach mode. And in the corner he was saying you're doing good. You know, he's like basically pumping her up when reality she was losing the fight. And I said, man, like, you got to be honest with her.

Like, you got to tell her. Like, she's losing this fight. But then afterwards, Lauren addressed and said, well, first off, he's not really my, you know, he's not really supposed to be there doing that anyways. And second, like, I kind of needed the positivity. And then I was like, you know what? You're right. I can't tell you what you need.

You need what you need. You know what I mean? And you have that relationship with your coach. I don't know what Aspen's relationship is with Jim. West as a coach, meaning maybe she needs that. Maybe she's told him through coaching sessions, through training sessions, through whatever, that maybe she needs to get a kick in the ass in the fourth round if she's not performing. We don't know that.

Also, I think that people are reacting because the reality is, if you listen to his coaching early in the fight, he was giving her technical advice. She wasn't doing what he was asking her to do. And if you listen to a lot of fighters who are like super in tune with their coaches, Like there's some fighters who work with like Mark Henry and certain coaches. They're like, I kind of pretend like I'm a video game. They yell what me to do and I do it. Now that's not going to be everybody though.

That's my point. It's not a one-size-fits-all. I think, and I respect Misha Tate so much. I love Misha Tate. I really do. I adore Misha Tate. But to call it abuse, I think is ridiculous because it's not. Yes, he was berating her.

But are we pretending that Aspen was having a good fight and he was doing that on top? No. She wasn't doing anything. And so for him to say, I don't know what you're doing out there. My first thought was, well, you're speaking for the rest of the audience as well, because I don't know what she was doing out there. Like she wasn't reacting. And it wasn't, and I agree with you, let's pay credit to Norma Dumont for doing a great job.

But at the same time, it wasn't like Norma was just demolishing her. It wasn't like she was knocking her down with every third punch. She was basically, as he said, using a one, two, a good jab. And she didn't have to do anything else. Norma didn't have to do anything else because Aspen never. made any adjustments. And Norma may not have been hurting her, but Norma was taking her to school. She was running a clinic on her. She was. With that one, too. And if you've ever boxed or kickboxed with someone that has a really good movement and really good one too like Norma did in that fight,

I mean, that could be a lot of rounds can go just like that. And why would you pick it up and take chances and throw power shots when that's all you have to do is touch them and move away? and that's a great skill to have. But I still, I would, the only thing I would say is he did not need to berate her. I don't, like, there's no proper, there's no time in, in, in coaching history where that's going to be, that's going to get your athlete moving. You know what I mean, like putting her down saying, what are you doing out there? Things like that. That is not, you know, but that's also.

coming from me who's been doing this for a very long time. I've been in many corners, seeing how people have reacted. And I've probably said those types of things before. But I also know, like, that's not, you know, you're trying to get her to, you know, start being more active and do certain things. Asking her what she's doing is not going to accomplish that, period. Like, it doesn't really matter who you are. So I wouldn't necessarily say I agree with it. But honestly, I could look at nine out of ten corners and say I don't know why they're saying that or why

they're saying it the way that they are and say the exact same things that I would say about Jim West cornering. You know, unfortunately, I think what happened was that he did

you know, maybe poor cornering towards the end. You know, I wouldn't say it was quality cornering by any means. So I think it was poor cornering. But also Aspen continued to look worse and worse. Well, maybe she looked a little better, I guess, in the maybe fourth and fifth round, but

she didn't really accomplish much more. So we're going to look at it and say, you know, oh, you know, that cornering made it worse or whatever, right? When maybe it was just that Norma is that fucking good. Yeah. Well, the other criticism I have is that generally speaking, when you hear

about, when people complain about a corner and the advice they're giving, it's generally on the flip side when the corner is not telling them the truth when they're losing they're down four rounds they're down three rounds they're still saying you're doing great out there you know you're winning the rounds and like everyone watching the fight is thinking what are you watching like why are you lying to them you know what I mean like why are you telling a fighter something that's totally not true and that's you that's generally the criticism we hear of a corner when they're just blowing smoke when you're like what do you why are you telling them they're winning rounds

they're not winning round you know what I mean like that's like a frustration part this is the other Was it a little bit, was it a little more animated or maybe even a little bit, you know, meaner than it needed to be, sure. But maybe that's the relationship they have. Maybe that's what she needed. I mean, she did actually react. Her best round was probably that fourth round. And that was after where he like literally was like, I don't know what you're doing out there. She, maybe that was the reaction she needed.

I don't know. And I just think it's the other. And I want to ask you this other thing, Matt, and this is kind of a sensitive subject. And this kind of takes it. But are we maybe reacting curious? I'm just curious, are we reacting this way because it was a male coach yelling at a female fighter versus if that had been, you know, I think he coaches Max Griffin, you know, Walterweight, USC Welterweight.

If he had said that to Max Griffin or if he said it to, you know, some other, if he had said it to a male fighter, would we be reacting so harshly? Like, I wonder if there's not a little bit of sexism into, you know what I mean? Like, because I've heard, I've heard some pretty crazy things in corners of being said between fighter and coach. I mean, I've heard like full on like shouting matches in the corners of coaches and fighters before and everyone just kind of laughs or says, well, maybe that's what he needed. I don't know. Are we overreacted a little bit because of that, that dynamic? That's a good question. I don't have an answer to that.

I just think I think it's possible. I think it's possible. That's why we're overreacting. Yeah, I think that's a valid question. Again, like I said, I could look at nine out of ten corners and criticize them and say, I don't know why you said that, the way you said it or whatever. And a lot of that, I mean, regardless of who the fighter is, you know, there's just certain, you know, these guys, a lot of them, I feel like the majority of corners, like they don't really study psychology or how to corner, you know, like a motivation and things like that, like how to speak, you know, how to use verbal cues. A lot of them, you know, are really just kind of fly by the sea of their pants, you know,

and, you know, maybe they have a game plan or whatever, but, you know, there's a, there is a huge psychological component and, you know, to creating motivation and to getting someone to do what you want them to do. And honestly, I don't, I just don't think. a lot of them actually have any clue. They're just doing what they would do in the gym every day. And it's unfortunate because they probably get a decent paycheck for it and probably don't put much of anything into it.

Yeah, and I think, like I said, I think my biggest takeaway here is this. And please feel free to disagree with me. One, I really don't think like, I really don't feel like you did anything wrong. But two, we don't know what that relationship is. Maybe that's what she requires out of her. coach. You know, three, I just think that, you know, it's, I mean, doesn't the fighter owe some responsibility if they're not reacting, if they're not doing what they're being, if they're

not doing what they're doing, aren't the coaches there to motivate me? Again, everyone's got a difference. Some people may not want that. I hear a million of different people in the corners. And I compliment. Like, I'm a big, big fan of hearing like Eric Nixick in the corner. James Krause does a great job. There's a lot of great coaches, but every fighter is different.

and what you need in the corner, and I'm sure you discuss that with your coaches and you're a coach yourself, Madley, what you need in the corner may not be what Aspen Ladd needs. I don't know what she needs. Maybe Jim West does. Maybe he was a little harsh, maybe, you know, literally saying,

I don't know what you're doing. I don't know what maybe that added to the context of it, but maybe she needed that kick in the butt. Maybe that's what she requires when she's not performing. I don't know, and I think it's unfair for anyone to really criticize that without knowing. Now, if Aspen Lad comes out, and says I was nearly in tears because he was berating me, then maybe we have a different reaction, but she hasn't said that.

She didn't come out and say, you know, I felt disrespected or my coach is being mean to me or any of that kind of stuff. She hasn't said that. So I just, I don't think it's our place to judge him based on this one particular interaction when Aspen was not having a good night. Norma Dumont was winning, handling, handling, and doing a great job. She really didn't have any answer for that. And I think he was just kind of dumbfounded, like, what do you?

you doing like what what's going on out there and maybe he expressed it a little more vehemently than maybe you or i would have but again i don't know that that's not what she maybe that's exactly what she needed and that's the only place i would disagree is that i have a hard time believing anybody would need uh exactly what he said and again i don't necessarily fault him for it i just i just think it's poor coaching um you know and again i can find it's not like he he's the only one. I think there's hundreds of them. So, you know, I don't, I don't necessarily fall to him and I don't, I don't think it's a unique thing. You know, he was a little more animated than a lot of people. And obviously, they're in the apex. Like, you can hear, like,

very, very clearly and loudly, right? And, and it's, you know, very prominent right there in front of your face. And then, of course, you get the, the breakdown on BT Sport where you hear everything from beginning to end. I think he could have added a lot more to the conversation. You know, I wouldn't want someone coaching me like that. But, you know, I highly doubt that that was what she needed. Yeah. You know, I, again, I think I would just kind of end it with like,

it's no worse than most of the corners I see. Yeah. Like it's, I don't know why people want to sing. this one or call it abuse or anything like that, you know, it's certainly nothing like that. But it didn't, I think a lot of those, particularly like, like, what are you doing out there? Like you have one minute in the corner. Like you have to take advantage of every single second. Every single thing you say is important because you have one minute and the corner and the, the athlete's only going to remember a very small portion of that.

even if you know if you repeat one thing over and over in the corner like it's going to be hard for them to remember when they get out there so i think that regardless of the athlete if the first thing that you're doing is saying what are you doing out there you're immediately bringing the athlete down right there you know negatively yeah and regardless of what they're doing or or who the athlete is i don't think that's going to be a positive thing to add into the conversation so again i would call it poor corner but no worse than the vast majority that you see out there. Yeah, I agree. I agree. It's week two of Canadian tires early Black Friday sale.

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while killing 99.9% of germs. With long-lasting freshness and an iconic pine scent, it's sure to give you that fresh holiday feeling. Shop now and get your home holiday ready with Pine Soul. Use is directed. Let's shift gears, Matt, because another big subject that's come up in these past couple weeks, you know, I talked about it last week, or two weeks ago on the show. I had Ryan Bader on his co-host,

and we talked about the situation with John Jones, and I'm not going to rehash everything going on with John Jones. but of course he's back in the public spotlight for all the wrong reasons after his recent domestic violence arrest and just this week we heard about another apparent alleged, let me say alleged incident involving Connor McGregor outside the cage. He allegedly punched an Italian DJ while he's on vacation in Rome

allegedly broke his nose, got into some altercations. And what I want to talk about, I'm not going to sit here in Judge Connor. I'm not sitting here in Judge and John, so I'm not going to rehash past episodes. But one question I have or one topic I want to talk about, Matt, is the UFC's Code of Khan. because the UOC has a code of conduct for athletes.

They instituted this a few years ago. And it basically reads just like the NFL or the NBA or any other major sports league, which basically says any behavior that can be deemed detrimental to the league can result in some sort of punishment. So it's a really broad, you know, it's just like in the NFL, you getting arrested, even if you don't get charged, even if you get the charges dismissed, they can still punish you because technically getting arrested in and of itself is quote unquote detrimental to the league. The UFC has that same right. Now, differences, we saw Luis Pena last week, got arrested again for domestic violence, second arrest in four months, dropped, released.

And you know what? I don't disagree with that decision. But then you have John Jones. There's like silence. No one's really saying anything. This is, I think, is fifth or sixth arrest beyond a domestic violence, which to me is the worst part of it. But fifth or six arrest, no real, nothing really said. Connor, same thing.

He's been in trouble over. and over and over and over again and no real repercussions. I'm just curious, Matt, like, as a fighter, should the UFC be doing more to curb behavior? Can the UFC do anything more to curb this kind of outside the cage behavior? Because it's not like they're punching an opponent after the bell and the commission can come after them.

This is stuff happening outside the cage. Yeah, you know, Damon, you're probably, I would argue you're as qualified to answer this question as me. You know, like this kind of stuff has nothing to do with, you know, fighting or anything. So I don't fucking know, man. Like, what do you do? You know, like, of course they don't want to cut John or Connor. Those are the two top draws, right?

Is there anybody bigger draw than either one of those two? I mean, John's, you know, probably the greatest in history. Connor's the biggest drawl in history. Like, what do you do? You know, so I don't know what the answer there is. I really don't. other than maybe like try to help these guys right like try to help louis spina which i have no idea what his situation is i just read the headline so i have no idea what about that

situation if it's worth helping him or anything like that but that's about the only thing that i could even think of right is yeah maybe try to get these guys into a rehab or or whatever kind of therapist or whatever could help him, right? Yeah, I think I think the difference for me Matt is this like again, I'm not going to sit here in a rehash

and I'm not judging although I guess I kind of am with John it's different John is on like you know five or six arrests in this one when you get to me domestic violence to me is a breaking point you know what I mean like domestic violence when you're a professional fighter is not no I just I can you don't come back from that in my opinion

and I'm not saying that he doesn't I'm not saying people don't deserve second chances. You absolutely do. Everybody does. But John's on like chance number like nine at this point. You know what I mean? And now we got domestic violence on top of that.

And again, I'm not saying the guy should be released. But again, the problem the UFC has, unlike other leagues, and I'm defending the UFC here, and you'll probably agree with me on this, Matt, there's only so much they can do. You can either release them or, you know, try to help them with rehab or therapy or whatever is because it's not the NFL. NFL where you could suspend somebody for four games. You know what I mean?

John's already been out for a year and a half. What are they going to suspend him for another year? Like he's already been out. Like what's the, what's that going to do? You know what I mean? Like what are they, okay, we're going to suspend him for a year. Great. He's already been out for a year and a half.

What does that really matter? Like what, you know what I mean? Like, and I think there's so much talk about fighter pay that I think fighting fighters would actually work out worse for the UFC and we're like, hey, we got a guy making 25 and 25. We're going to pay it. we're going to hit him with a 50K fine. Okay, you just took away all this money.

Now people are going to complain you're not paying them enough to begin with. So it's like they're in a lose-lose situation because there's not really a punishment they can dish out outside of releasing a guy. Now, with Connor, like, you just, at some point, Connor and Michael Bisping said this on his YouTube channel. At some point, somebody just got to sit Connor down and say, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing, man? Like, you got all the money in the world, all the success in the world, all these things. why are you out punching people? Why are you getting into fights with machine gun Kelly on a red carpet?

What are you doing? Like, I don't, that's like, that's, like, that to me is, that is, I know this sounds terrible. That's just stupid. Like, it's not even like, I'm not even like, I'm not mad about it. I'm just like, why are you doing this? Like, what is wrong that you're getting to a freaking fight with machine gun Kelly on a red carpet? Like, what is that doing for you? That's getting a lot of PR.

All PR is good PR. right? I guess, but it's just like, like with Connor, there's less because Connor's the biggest superstar in the sport and all these kind of things, but at some point, like, I don't know, here's the problem. I don't know what they can do to punish him. Like, what can they do? They're not going to release Connor, and I don't think they should. I think Connor, what Connor is doing, as stupid as it is, it's not, you know, the end of the world. And also, to be fair, I think the NFL and some of these other leagues out there, you know, they're so harsh with their penalties. I think they go overboard because everyone's so reactionary, you know, I mean, like you get arrested, immediately you got to get dropped. Like, okay, let's, you know, take a step back. Like, let's find out what actually happened. Let's, you know, hear all the relevant, you know, all the stuff that's going on the case. But basically, the UFC's only recourse is release.

Well, they're not going to release Connor. You and I both know that. You and I, if Connor was, if Connor didn't get released for attacking a bus full of UFC fighters with a moving dolly, they're not going to release him for punching some random Italian DJ in Rome. I'm sorry. It's just not going to happen. So I don't know what they do with Connor.

John, I think, is in a different situation because John, this is a pattern of behavior. DUIs, hitting runs, you know, and now domestic violence. That's where I think John, you're getting to a breaking point, especially when Louise Pena gets arrested for domestic violence, you release him. But Jones, you're kind of silent on. That's where, that to me is a worst look. Connor, again, I think Connor is just being dumb and someone needs to set Connor aside and say, dude, like seriously. Like, like, stop. Stop doing what you're doing.

Yeah, it sucks because it's hypocritical, no doubt, right? Like, it's treating one person different than another. So they're not really following that code of conduct policy, are they? But I don't know what the answer is. I can't say that I have a good solution for that, to be honest. Well, I think you're in the same boat as everybody, though, right? I mean, really, there's not a perfect answer. Like, that's what I said, like, your only recourse of action is releasing them.

Like, that's pretty much it Because, I mean, Connor's out for a year With a broken leg What do you get to? Suspenter for six months? He's not going to fight in six months anyhow. Like, what do you?

You're going to knock Connor $50,000? That's like, he's got that in the, you know, in the couch cushions of his house. Yeah, you're not really hurting. Maybe they could at least do it just for, uh,

PR purposes. Yeah. You know, just a suspension, even if they know he's going to be out. Just say, look, well, we suspended him.

We did our part. Yeah. I think, I think John is the worst one. because of Luis Pena's situation. Luis gets, you know, dropped within days of the second arrest. John, it's just kind of radio silence, you know what I mean? And again, I think when you get to domestic violence,

because again, it's just like crimes. I mean, just like crimes like anything else, there's going to be, there's going to be levels, you know what I mean? Like getting into a stupid altercation outside a club with machine gun Kelly, as dumb as that was, no one got hurt, you know, and it was just stupid, like it was just a stupid thing to do, and you shouldn't do it. But, you know, you're not going to release a guy over that.

John Jones, on the other hand, you can make an argument, man. Like, you can make an argument as great as he is. And I agree. I think he's the greatest of all the time. You can make an argument on, like, chance number nine. And now we've got domestic violence piled on top. You're kind of like, you know what? Maybe it's diminishing returns.

Maybe this is the time where we finally make a stand and say, you know, what, we just can't, for now we can't be associated with this guy. Like, again, I'm not saying they should. But, like, I think that's, like, there's got to be a breaking point, right? you can't get away with it forever. Yeah, I'd be interested to hear the UFC's take on this whenever they speak about it. I haven't heard anything so far.

I'm sure the question will be asked at some point, whether it's a Dana or to one of the reps or something. And I think it'd be interesting to hear what their reasoning behind it is. Yeah, Dana said something to the effect of when at first time, and it just said it's not even surprising anymore. And I would agree, it's not.

I mean, unfortunately. But that's a problem with the guy like John, right? Like you don't want it to be like when you get arrested You're just like oh man here we go again Like it's number nine You know like dude like at some point You're just like you gotta clean your act up And the problem is I think what John's having now

Is he's had so many second chances I think people are just kind of giving up on him You know what I mean like you're just like at what point Do we just say enough so I can't I can't say you're getting a second chance now Because it's no longer a second chance It's a ninth chance And now you're getting arrested for domestic violence

You know what I mean? Like that's like again There are two totally different instances but I really, the UFC's been wildly inconsistent with their reactions. Yeah, which is, again, I don't have answers. That's a very tough one, man. Hopefully it all gets figured out, though. And, you know, hopefully these guys just get their lives figured out, man.

I think that's the biggest tragedy in the whole thing, right? These guys have a lot going for them, great careers ahead of them, a lot of money. And they all have kids, man. So hopefully they just get their lives cleaned up. and take care of their families. It's like the notorious BIG said once upon a time, mo money, no problems. I heard that.

No money. More problems. No money. No money and more problems too. I agree. That's absolutely true. Last thing before we get out of here today, Matt, we got another UFC event coming up on Saturday.

UFC fight night from Vegas. Marvin Vittori taking on Paulo Costa. Big middle-weight fight. Both guys are actually coming off losses to Israel out of Sonia. Much different fights, however. Marvin went all five rounds and the decision lost out of Sonia. Costa got knocked out first or second round.

I remember what it was. Pretty bad performance that night. Now they're fighting each other. A win, you know, gets the guy back in contention. A loss will definitely knock them down a little bit. I'm curious your thoughts on this one because it's an interesting stylistic matchup because you got Costa

who is typically known as like this ultra aggressive big puncher. And you got Vittori who's a little bit more of a technician, you know, good ground game, solid striking, really good in the clinch, things like that. But I think the bigger question with this, and correct me from wrong, Matt, is I'm not sure what Paulo Costa we're going to get. Because when you look at him against Juel Romero, he came out like a ball of fire and he looked like he had cardio for days. You look at his fight against Adasania. I mean, and I know he's talked about all the things he had going on and drinking a bottle of wine before the night before the fight and all this kind of stuff.

But you look at that fight, you're kind of like, that was just, that was like completely unrecognizable from him. yeah man what a great matchup that i think that's what it all comes down to this is just a great matchmaking by the ufc and you know these are the two best fighters in the division maybe uh other than whittaker um outside of uh autosania and whittaker i would say so uh i think it's just an exciting matchup i think you hit the nail in the head too with we just don't know what costa we're going to get i think probably six, seven out of ten times I would probably pick Votori to wear him down

and wear them out you know, grind him against the cage you know, put a lot of pressure on them wear them out but I also think Costa could probably handle that and put it on them so boy, this is going to be a real interesting one

and I'm a little 50-50 on this one maybe 55 for boy Vittory Yeah, I think the five rounds favors Vatori because we've seen him go five rounds, hard five rounds. Costa is such a fast starter. And I know he went three hard rounds to Yuel Romero, but three rounds is not five rounds. And we've got to be honest. We've seen a lot of guys go three rounds.

And then getting that fourth or fifth round, there's just nothing left. And like I said, the honest, I just got more questions about Costa right now. I don't know what he, you know, some guys, and you know this, Matt, some people just don't recover from a loss. You know what I mean? Like some guys have a really bad performance at a really bad night. Everyone's questioning them. And they just don't come back the same. And I don't know.

And I taught, Grant, I talked to Marvin last week. He sounds like, you know, he's still irritated by the way the Adasanya fight played out. But it sounded like he got fired up from that fight. With Costa,

I don't know. Like, he took so much criticism and he started drinking wine and all this, like, all this weird, bizarre stuff. I'm kind of like, maybe he just doesn't come back. from that. Like, you know what I mean? Like, because some guys don't.

No, that mental side, man. I think that's a really, really great point. And I think that's why I lean towards Vittori a little more. I think mentally, he just seems a little more possessed, a little more fired up. He looks a little more eager and hunger to get back to that rematch. And Costa seems a little bit deflated maybe from that Adasanya fight. Yeah, there's a hangover, right we've seen it there's a hangover from a bad fight or a bad title fight you know a lot of guys a lot of girls come up a title fight lost they just don't look the same the next time out uh i don't get that sense for vittory i kind of kind of get that sense from cost a little bit i got to be honest yeah that's it yeah exactly so i said i think it's a great great matchup man and i'm really

excited to see that fight i think it's going to be a very intriguing fight but i can see costa definitely coming out and putting it on him early. If Vittori can weather the storm, I think, again, like you said, the five rounds favors Votori, and I think that would be a huge difference maker. I think with his mentality, you know, he's a come forward, a tough guy. You know, it's just, Koste could really put it on a bat at the beginning and really change the rest of the fight. Yeah. One thing I will say real quick for we get out of here, we've never really seen Votori put into serious trouble, though.

You know what I mean? Like he's a smart enough fighter defensively. Even with Adasanya, like, Adasanya never truly had him hurt. Like, he never had him like to the point where like, oh, man, it's almost over. Vitori's very smart defensively. And I think that bodes well for him against the guy like Costa who's so aggressive and such a big power puncher. As long as he can avoid those power punches and maybe get a takedown or just get to clench, you know, slow down. Costa, I think that's where he can take over. And again, that's why I favored Vittori in this fight.

I think he is the smarter, more technical fighter. and as long as he doesn't get caught early, which anybody can get caught. I just think he's got more ways to win. And I don't have questions about Vitori, the way I have questions about Costa. Yeah, so I think we're probably right on the same where we lean towards Votori.

But boy, if Costa goes out there and beats him, I don't think no one's going to be surprised, right? Yeah, it's going to be a good one. I look forward. This is a great. I got to be honest, last couple of main events have been kind of like, eh, all right. This one's great, man.

This is a great main event. That'll lead right into the Oc2-66. two title fights and some great matchups on that card from Abu Dhabi. Matt Brown, where can people find you? You are on Twitter. I am The Immortal is your Twitter handle. And, of course, the gym, Immortal Martial Arts, anywhere, anything else you got going on right now?

No, there's two big ones, man. Instagram, I am the immortal. Facebook.com slash I am the immortal or something like that. I don't know. Google, you'll find it. Yeah, you'll find it. You'll find it. All right.

Well, Matt, I appreciate you doing this. We will be back. cool in a couple weeks for UOC 268. I think you're going to come back and do something cool for that. I'll tease that a little bit later at a downtime. But Matt, appreciate you doing the show today.

We will catch up again soon and look forward to having you back on the show in a couple weeks. Absolutely. Thanks for having me as always, brother. Talk to you soon. I see you. There he is, Matt Brown, the immortal. And we're going to get out of here.

Obviously, want to say a big thank you to everyone tuning in to The Fighter vs. the writer. Make sure you check us out on all of your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, all those places, and of course you can always find a podcast over on mhmapfiting.com. We will see you guys next week for another edition. See you then. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Simonsz's Sucupes to your look de facto.

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