MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Praises Ilia Topuria, Argues for Arman Tsarukyan To Get the Next Title Shot Over Paddy Pimblett

Episode Date: July 1, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin discuss Ilia Topuria’s incredible knockout win at UFC 317, where this victory puts him in the pound-for-pound rankings, and his potential matchups against Arman Tsarukyan and Paddy Pimblett plus much more Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Back to the Fighter versus the writer. I'm Damon Martin. He is UFC legend and half sick right now. Matt Brown. Matt, trucking through to make it to the podcast. That's true dedication right there when you're feeling under the weather. So I know I appreciate it.

I know our audience appreciates it. Yeah, there's no worries, man. You got to do what you got to do. I enjoy doing the show. So I'm not going to let everybody down that wants to talk shit about me on social media for my random takes, I guess, for my edited takes. Well, you had good takes last week because obviously you predicted Iliate Teporia's win pretty clearly there. I mean, obviously you gave Charles a chance.

I think we all gave Charles a chance. But, boy, I tell you what, man, Ilya Teporia, if there was doubters out there, I think he silenced a whole lot of people this last weekend. I would say so, you know. Yeah, it's not too often that we hit one or that I hit one. I nailed that good on that. head, you know, and I said it exactly, almost exactly like, you know, I thought Charles would potentially last longer, but like, you know, I said he's hit a bull and, you know, I said he's hit a

him, you know, and it didn't work out so well for Charles. And, you know, he's taking a lot of shots from some hard hitting guys, but, man, Ilya was different, man, that precision is, is a different world. Yeah, it's crazy. And I mentioned this on Saturday night. I said, you know, it's been six years since Oliver got knocked out. And that's been. It's been six years since Oliver got knocked out. was Paul Felder when he got elbowed on the ground. And I was like, since then he fought Gaychi, he fought Porre. He fought Chandler twice, and he fought Benile Derrush. All those guys have one punch knockout power, every single one of them.

And he didn't get knocked out by any of them. I mean, it's ridiculous. And I know, you know, you're right. Like, he's taking a lot of damage. It does mount up. He's an older guy now. And, you know, when you get hit like that, I mean, I'm sure if Porier hit him as clean as Toporia hit him, he probably would have gone down too.

But neither here nor there. I mean, Tepore putting him down like that was so damn impressive. And all the, you know, can he handle lightweight? Can he be an elite lightweight? I mean, Charles Olavera, listen, I'm not going to deny and say that. Armand Syracian probably was the number one contender. He probably should have got it. But unfortunately, because of what happened in January,

the UFC just wasn't going to give it to him. Charles was the next best option. And so you can't say it's not a legitimate win. It's a very good. And let's not forget, Charles did go to a split decision with Armand like a year ago. So it's not like Charles sucks or something. Like, he had a split decision to Armand at UFC 300. So, I mean, this is a legitimate as a win you can get,

especially, you know, coming up from featherway. I think, I mean, there's always going to be questions. You could say there's questions to be answered about Islam Mikachev, and he's the number one pound for pound fighting in the sport. But I think Ilya answered a lot of questions on Saturday. For sure. Yeah. And I mean, like you said, there's always going to be questions.

I mean, you could go through any resume and pick apart nuances and shit on different things. but come on, man. He moved up and fought that, you know, whether it's the number one contender or whether it's, you know, it's Charles Oliver, bro. You know, like, we know what this guy's about, man, whether he's a number one contender or not.

And he starts him in a couple minutes. Yeah. I didn't say this on Saturday, but I was thinking about it and I wanted to say it for the podcast. Listen, we, I know everyone likes talking about, star power and who's the superstar and the sport, things like that. I think Ilya was already there after beating Volcanovsky and Holloway.

Those are two massive wins knocking out a pair of legends who had never, especially Holloway, never been knocked out before. And, you know, when he went home to Spain, you know, they got him at the football stadiums, people are losing their minds. He was already a bit of a star there. But I said, my thought, my first thought press, Washington knockout Charles Loevere on Saturday was like, he is everything that we wanted Connor to be.

I mean, he's not, he doesn't have the personality yet. He does trash talk pretty good. He is good on the mic, but he's not Connor. No one's Connor. We're not going to make that comparison. But he's everything we wanted Connor to be. He's got that charisma, that swagger, and he's just, I mean, he just fucks people up. And you could argue, I mean, you know, give Connor credit for knocking out Jose Aldo and knocking out Eddie Alvarez.

But I think, you know, knocking out Volcanovsky Holloway and now Charles Oliver, like, you could argue, I'll even already done more than Connor in terms of like higher-level competition. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I agree. Now, what's the next for Armin? That's my question. Because we don't, like, yeah, you go ahead. They haven't said, but I mean, we were going to get into us. Let's just get into it. Like, after the fight, he calls, he actually mentions, you know, he says the guy who injured his back, so he kind of mentioned Armin, but then he called the blonde bitch, and we knew it was Patty. And Patty comes in, I know Dana said he hates it. And generally speaking, I hate that. I hate that. when they do that shit too.

Because it's like, give the guy 10 minutes to celebrate. Like, he just got a huge win. He's a two-division champion. Like, give him a minute to celebrate. But Armin, or excuse me, Ilya is the one who called him in. It wasn't like they ambushed Ilya and said, hey, man, you know, put your wife and kid to decide, we've got to have you do this face off with somebody. Ilya's like, come on in here.

So that's on Ilya. He faces off with Patty Pimble. They're jaunded each other. He shoves him. That's the fight. And now Armin and Justin Gates are both like, well, fuck. Because I think those two are going to fight. To answer your question, I think it's got to.

to be Armin and Justin Gachie, and it's going to be Patty and Ilya. Yeah, which, okay, so that's what I was kind of getting at when I asked. I guess I kind of knew that that would probably be the response. It's probably going to be Patty, but it should goddamn well be Armin. Then we know that, right? And that's my only, of all the amazing things that Ilya has done so far, the fact that he called up Patty, like, I'm not going to say he was duck and Armin, but like, I don't know if, you know, like, he wanted that fight to be next.

And what I want to see, just personally, you know, I'm not saying, you know, this should be the, whatever, I should feel, whatever, but, like, I want to see him fight Armin. Like, that's just the, I think that, like, if he goes out and beats Armin, especially in a good fashion, but just beats him, period, like, that, to me is bigger than beating Charles personally. Oh, I agree. I agree. It's funny. I had kind of similar vibes. I know we talked about this on the show going back away. I had similar vibes to when O'Malley was calling out Cheeto Vera after he won.

You know what I mean? Like, you know, Marab should have been the guy, but, you know, he had the history of Cheeto. And yes, I know technically Cheeto had a win over it when he got injured. But I'm like, dude, you're just, you're wanting the personal fight. They went in there and just beat the brakes off Cheeto. And it was a good win. I mean, Cheetos is a tough fighter. I'm not going to discount Cheeto.

I think the difference is that Patty is a much bigger star. Like, he is astronomical. Like, he's probably one of the, I don't know, five or six biggest stars in the UFC right now. And I think what he's shown in his last couple of fights with Bobby Green and with Michael Chandler is he's legit. Now, I'm not saying he's the number one contender. Armand's the number one contender.

But he's legit. I think he proved a lot of people wrong with the way his last couple of fights have gone. So I got a little of the Cheeto Vera vibes there where I'm like he's going. But at the same time, the UFC's a business. They got a new TV contract coming up. and they need big fights. And we know Connor's gone. John Jones is now gone.

I mean, you know, the biggest fight that could have promoted this year was Tom Aspinall John Jones. That's no longer happening. I mean, Aspinol, Cyril gone. If that happens, come on. Now, let's be honest. Like, how's that's going to sell?

Islam and Jack Del and Madeline, I think we'll do well because Islam's a pretty big star in his own right. But, I mean, come on, let's be honest. Of all the fights you can promote right now, guys who are actually in the UFC in fighting, so Connor doesn't qualify. I mean, I think Dustin Max,

a solid fight but i mean i think iliot patty's probably the biggest fight they could do yeah i mean i guess when you look at it that way in terms of the biggest fights but but damn like patty has not earned that you know like he just does not deserve be there there there's even other guys other than gaigi and armen that deserve to be there and it's like it was just uh that's an odd way of skipping the line you know like not not even i don't even know it's not even an odd way but come on man like ilia has to to me is on the verge of like

you know how far is he way from you know we start comparing him to like a john jones you know and to me like if he goes out and beats like an armin or you know maybe islam moves back down or or moves up and fights Islam if he wins or medella madalina

like we're starting to talk about like john jones level greatness you know like start making comparisons but with he goes out and beats a patty it's like you know he'll go back and fight you know some of the tougher guys after that um not that patty's not tough because i shouldn't say that but you know we know he'll fight some of those tougher matchups after that uh at some point but it's like i just want to see it now like like like the guys like right on the verge of like i mean is this that i was i looked through

some of jones's uh resume and you know it was like comparing some of some of the um of the the three-fight runs that he went on, which, I mean, he ran on undefeated run, but I'm not sure like that you compare them to this with Ilya. Like they're really not, maybe, you know, maybe hindsight is 20-20, but I don't know if they're as good as this run the Ilya is on right now. He had a three-fight run that I think is comparable. And I said, I actually wrote about this. I said, he beat Shogun, he beat Rampage, and he beat Leota Machita in a row.

and he finished all of them. And those are three former champions, too. And, you know, that's same name with Holloway. And by the way, I'm not saying that's better. I'm saying, like, that's the only thing that's, like, comparable. Like, I don't. So that was the same one I was saying about, but, like, the difference is, like, Ilya knocked these guys out.

Well, and John, John's knocked out Shogun, submitted, Rampage, submitted Machita. And the Machita one, especially was nasty with the standing guillotine. That being said, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not shading John here. I think as good as Shogun, gun was, I think that was still a different Shogun than was in pride. I think Rampage at that point was a different rampage than was in pride. Volcanovsky was, you know, yes, I know he was coming up to

the loss to Islam going up in a weight class, but he was undefeated at Fed the weight. And then you look at Max Holloway, who had never been finished, never been finished by strikes, ever. And he knocked him out inside three rounds. Like, what John did is incredible. And I think that's the only one you can compare it to. But I think Ilya even caps, when you look at where those guys were at in their careers. I'm not, those showguns a legend,

Rampage is a legend, Leota's a legend. But at that point in their careers, I think you're talking about Volcanowski's top five pound for pound, Max Holloway's top five pound for pound. Charles, probably a little lower. You know, I think that's probably like,

as I know that I'm saying this, that's the worst of the three wins and that's not a terrible way, but I'm saying like, that's the worst of the three wins. Yeah, and that's the thing is it's a, you could totally, the whole point of it is you can get into all the, detail and nuance arguing this three-fight run back and forth as the who's was better right like there's

it's at least debatable um and and that's you know i want to see the run keep going because that's my biggest criticism of of john jones was you know he did eventually you know kind of taper off in terms of level of competition i want to see i'll go fight the baddest dudes and let's just see if he's all that. And if he can be Armand next, I mean, that's a, that's a pretty strong seal right there, you know, like, especially, I mean, I guess he probably won't get the Islam fight, you know, depending on what happens with him and Delamadena. But, you know, outside of moving up to 170, you know, Armand is the one that makes the most sense in terms of Ilya's greatness. And, but on, on Ilius side, I could totally get where he's coming from, too. He's like,

Yeah, Armands might be the greatest, toughest challenge. But is they going to sell the most pay-per-views? Who's going to give, like, Armine's not a big name, right? Like, he's just simply not a big name. And that's just all there is, too. Patty's a gigantic name. So, you know, Gagey is kind of the third one there, right? Where, you know, that's a great fight.

But, you know, the argument there is going to be Gagy's on his way out. Yeah. And I think, and I think, and this is not a knock on Armand. I think Gajie's a bigger star than Armid is in terms of just star power. Oh, for sure. Yeah. So, yeah. And that's the problem Armis dealing with here.

And I, listen, we all know, we hate it in a way. When you say, man, that's, you know, it should matter who is number one ranked to it. I get it. I'm not disagreeing. In a perfect world, would I rather see Armand Sarukin and Dillian to Port 100%. But the UFC, they just see dollar signs. I mean, when you have that moment in the cage and he shoves them now, you, I mean, I mean, come on like they and i and i say this and i say this as the guy and i'm telling you right now mad

i'm saying it should be ilia and arman it should be 100% but the ufc would be insane not to cash in right now and do ilia and patty because we've seen it in boxing a million times when they fuck around you know what i mean they did it with dionte wilder and nancy joshua they've done it a million times they're like oh let's just one more fight and then something gets fucked up they just did it with devon haynie and ryan garrsia they didn't run that back in that fucked up. And that was actually like a really, that was potentially going to be a really, really big rematch. Don't

fuck around. Don't give it a chance. Because if Armin goes out, because I think Armin can absolutely be illy. I think Armin's going to win that fight. Or if Patty goes out and fights Gagey and gets leg kicked to hell or something, don't blow it. You got it. It's set up now. You had the Indy Cage moment. They hate each

other legitimately. The buildup is going to be fire. You got a new TV deal coming. I mean, come on. Save this fight for like January. You got the new TV deal kick it off with Patty and Ilya? Yeah, yeah. Come on. I mean, it's just, it's set up.

It's too perfect. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like it's probably going to be set with that, and that's going to be a gigantic fight. You know, I'm going to argue to the end, it should be Armin, and, you know, I want to see that fight, and I think if, if Ilya goes out and beats Armin, you know, it certainly adds to the argument that he is the greatest ever. I know this is a

kind of a pointless debate but it's a debate everyone loves to have so I'm going to bring it up Matt you know Dana said it forever John Jones number one pound for pound John Jones number one pound and everyone argued no it's Islam like right now

not all time all time great was John Jones number one was Islam and I think Islam is still the number one right now but I think there's a real compelling argument that Iliate Topori is the number one pound because when you look at and I'm not this is not a knock on Islam Islam's incredible

when you look at who Ilya has run through and the way he's done it. I don't discredit Islam's wins over Volcanowski. I know that's one of the reasons he didn't want to fight I'llies. Like if I beat him, I'm just going to get, everyone's going to say I beat up a featherweight. And he's not wrong. I agreed with him.

But now Ilya did beat two all-time great featherweights and now he just beat an all-time great lightweight future Hall of Famer and Charles Olivera. And he's in the defeat. 17-0-0-60, whatever the number is. And it's like almost 100% finishing rate in the UFC. He's had two decisions. in your opinion Matt

I mean I have a hard time not putting in that I love Islam and if Islam goes out and beats Jack Delah Madelana he can leapfrog him again because that's a huge win in another cell but for right now and on this date in June 2025 I think Ilya is the number one pound for pound guy right now she kind of took the words at my mouth there I was going to say

it kind of depends on what happens with Islam and Jack you know and Islam has a big challenge there right because he's the one moving up now. And, you know, I think Jack might be an underrated champion, too. You know, like I think he's, you know, his grappling and particularly being a larger guy and his grappling and might be underrated. It might be harder for Islam to take him down and control him than it seems, right?

And of course, Islam is kind of in a situation where that's probably his really, maybe his only chance to victory, right? Maybe his stand-up has gotten good enough, but I highly doubt it, right? You know, just on paper, he's got to take him down. Jack might be harder to take down than we think. Islam might be harder to beat on the feet than we think.

I don't know. But that's where I'm at on that, like June, whatever it is, 2025, I'm with you on that, man. It is hard to say it's not illegal to pour him. It is hard. It is hard to not say that Iliot-Supori is not the best fighter on this planet, pound for pound right now. I mean,

and I think you've got to look at the entire picture, too. I mean, he's undefeated, never had a blemish on his record, and he's been absolutely dominant. I mean, dominant, yeah. The only thing we could bring up him going to Lightway was that Jai Herbert fight, where he did get knocked a little bit, and then, you know, he still ethered him in the fight.

In the fight, he knocked out J. Herbert cold, but he did have a couple of close dicey moments in that fight. But outside of that, like, you know, he had the five-round fight, with Josh Emmett where he probably took years off of Josh Schmidt's life that he survived all five rounds. I mean, you know, doing what he did to Bryce Mitchell when Bryce was kind of riding a hype train at that point. Doing what he did to Volcanovsky, doing what he did to Max. I mean, no one has, I mean, look at the guys Max Holloway has fought and never been knocked out ever.

Sure. And he did it and whatever was inside three rounds. And he just did it. And Charles hadn't been knocked out since 2017. And that was against Paul Felder. Paul Felder knocked him out on the ground with strikes, with elbows. I don't think he knocked him out clean. and he beat him, but I don't remember him going on clean.

He was out, like out, out. He was done. I mean, I think Islam's incredible, but when you look at, when you encapsulate everything, like, and then now you're talking about going up a weight class and doing it in three minutes, under three minutes against one of the best lightweights of all time.

I mean, like I said, Islam could absolutely retake him if he goes out there and beats Jack Della and Adelaide. That's right, Matt, yeah. But right now, that fights to not happen. It's probably not going to happen until October and November. So as of right now today, I think Ilya's number one.

Yeah, I mean, as of right now, I think you could make an argument for either one, right? I mean, that's, but the problem is that, or I don't know if you say problem, but there's not really a third place there, right? It's one of them two. And I think that's the situation we're in. We know that it is Islam and Ilya are the two. I guess, okay, when I was thinking in my head problem, what I come up with, as a problem is Islam just moved up. I wanted to see them fight.

Like, Ilya going out and beating Charles was set up such a massive fight with Islam right now, and it's unfortunate that Islam is moving up to fight Jack. Like, he should be staying at 55 and fighting Ilya. Like, that makes an absolute massive fight. I think it's a bigger than the paddy fight or whatever, right? I mean, that is the biggest fight the UFC can make right now, probably across the entire UFC

I don't know maybe Alex Pereira might have something you know like I think he's the only other maybe if he came back and fought Dracus or something maybe I don't know but that's the fight right there but it's unfortunate that that's not going to happen right away

and it's probably going to be Patty which is cool you know but Patty's not you know not as proof right yeah it's funny he's proven us wrong every time right like we got to give him credit like he's proven so many people wrong and he's doing the right things rubbing people the right you know the wrong way in the right way you know he's getting his name out there it goes in the octagon

he's not as proven and that that's all there is to it it's funny you say that like i believe in my heart of hearts a ilia is and patti is the biggest fight they can put on that's because it's realistic. The biggest fight is Ilya and Islam. That is an astronomical fight on another level. And I wonder because I know, like, I don't I mean, how often, real quick, not to interrupt but how often in any combat

sports do you see the pound for pound top two compete against each other? I mean, you know, it's got to be someone that's, I think boxing maybe like Pacquiao Mayweather. It happened with Islam and Alice. I think they were won two at the time when they fought

like back in February like 20, 22, Islam and Alex Wokanowski. I think they were number one. I think they were number one and two at the time. And that was a great fight. Their first one was a great fight. It was a battle. And I love Volk.

I think Volk's awesome. But I don't think Volk was as big of a star as Ilya. And so I think that brings it down a little bit. Like you look at like, you know, like you got to look at all the factors. That's why I said like why Ilya is like a less problematic Connor. Like he's he's a star. He's knocking. He's knocking people out, and he's got all the charisma and swagger in the world.

He just doesn't go out and go and cook. And also not to take anything away from Volk. Like, at the time he was pound for pound. You know, I may have my history wrong a little bit. But I think it wasn't like he was a consensus pound for me. Like obviously John Jones was up there, but it was like, you know, there was debates and arguments to be made a little different way. Again, I don't really think there's any debating right now. Like, it's Illia and Islam.

Like they're very, very clear. And if one of them lost, like they would probably still be one and two. Yeah. Oh, I agree. I agree. And here's the thing. I don't fault Islam for going up and chasing his dream because. Yeah.

And I truly believe if Bilal Muhammad would have won, if he would have beaten Jack Del and Madalane, I think we would be seeing Islam in Ili or we would have just seen Islam and Ilya fight this last weekend. But Bilau did lose. Jack got the belt. And that was the perfect opening that Islam needed to go up to 170. So I'm not faulting him. But as a fan, I can sit here and say, man, that's the fight I'd rather see. Because I'm not going to say Islam made a mistake.

Islam is doing what he wants to do no different than what Ili is doing. I mean, I could say, if I'm a fed away, I could say, man, you need to fight Mosar before you go up. Like, Mosa is legit. He's undefeated. He's a wrestler. You need to fight Mosaar. But I don't think he was really complained about that. So I'm not saying Islam shouldn't chase his dreams.

And the opening was there, right? Like, it was perfectly set up for him to go fight Jackson. after he beat Bilal. It was perfect. I'm not faulting him. I'm just saying selfishly, I think Islam and Ili is the fight I'd rather see right now. It's just, unfortunately, I don't think we're going to see it.

I think Islam's going to fight Jack. That's fine. I'm cool with it. That's why I didn't even put it as like a hypothetical, because I know it's not going to happen. I know Islam's not going to be like, you know what? Fuck this Ilya guy. I'm coming back down.

No, he doesn't care. He's like, I'm going to 170. I'm fighting Jack, and he can keep doing what he's doing at 155. So it's I mean, I think that's going to be the fight. Well, it certainly creates a great future Because I cannot I never met really in person But I could not see him making it as a 170 year

Like he looks way too small for that Islam looks like he would Fit into 170 pretty easily right So watching the two of these Compete for their runs You know assuming that they stay in these weight classes Islam at 170 Ili at 155

Watching the two of them compete and how long they can dominate divisions and go back and forth before potentially they fight, maybe it becomes a catchweight or maybe Ilya moves up or Islam moves down, whatever happens. I think that's a...

We could potentially be set up for an amazing time in this sport right now where these guys are competing in the most badass way, right? With Islam out submitting everyone and Ilya out knocking everybody out And it's like this argument might go on for years, this same argument that we're having,

a debate that we're having right now. Can I ask, like, we talk about Patty. Like, he's not proven in terms of like the word deserved, which I feel about the word deserves in this sport. Do you get Patty, like just known what we know so far, do you give Patty a great chance to beat Ilya? Do you give him any chance to beat Ilya? Besides the, besides that it's fighting,

we know anything can happen. I understand that. But in terms of like breaking down the fight, do you give Patty? a realistic chance of beating ilia well you know one of the great things about ilia that i've liked so far is you know he seems to be really good at that taking out that factor of its fighting right because that's like there's always factor that we have we you know these guys uh in m m mary particularly like they're throwing so wild all the time and you know different things and you complete you know odd

styles you know styles make like ilia has such a fundamentally good style that like it minimizes that well it's fighting types of you know what i mean um there is i hypothetically see things i i should say i i see things hypothetically in ilia some weaknesses that could be exposed i thought charles started off for example a great job um attacking the calf kick and then he kind of decided to trade hands with them you know maybe got a little confident or something but um like ilia again i see some exposures there. You know, that doesn't really mean anything either

until someone actually exposes it, right? Patty, I mean, you see weakness in a lot of areas, right? His grappling is obviously second to none. Not second to none. He is great grappling, right? He'll be careful how you, you know, these Instagram people quote the fuck out of you on this shit. You got to be careful exactly what you say, right?

His grapple is great. we don't know if his grappling is you know, Damien Maya level. We don't know if his grappling is, you know, Islam level. Maybe it is, maybe not. His striking, we haven't seen anything that that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, um,

that makes us believe that he's top 10 on the feet at all, where he has any chance in the top 10 on the feet. Yeah, I think for Patty to beat Ilya, he's got to do what he did to Chandler, take him down and just malle him on the ground. And that was impressive because Chiller is a good wrestler, you know what I mean? But like, on the feet, it's a mismatch. It's a mismatch.

I mean, the only thing working for Patty is he's going to be bigger, he's going to be taller. He's going to have size. So he's going to have to, like, obviously, Ilya's got to work his way. So I mean, I didn't know he acknowledged that on Saturday night. So I didn't even if you did. And he's like, I have to work inside on everybody. I'm short of pretty much everybody. And guess what?

He finds a way to do it. He did to Max Holloway, who's tall. He did it to Charles Oliver who's tall. And we tend to, I'm guessing you'd be the same. we tend to favor the grappler over the striker when it's a great grappler versus a great striker, right? It's like a statistically, it's, I never looked at stats,

but statistically it's got to be in the grappler's favor there. But I think it changes a little bit when a guy has to get to grappling, right? When he doesn't have a choice, where he just has to initiate grappling, and has to find a way in, or he's going to get lit up. and that's, I think, a situation that we're looking at here.

Yeah, I agree. And, I mean, listen, it's a big fight, and you never count anybody out. But I love what you said. When I kind of negates the whole, well, it's fighting thing. Because, like, when you watch his boxing, it's so smooth. It's so crisp. Like, the way he threw that jab out there and set up the hooks. Like, he was going down the middle, down the middle, down the middle.

As soon as Charles brought his hands there, he's like, boom, hook. And just absolutely demolished him. he's so clean and so precise with what he does. And also, I'm about I'm going to, he actually does have a good ground game. Like he's submitted Bryce Mitchell. Like he's got a good ground game.

He just doesn't use it as much as his boxing. But I think that's the big difference between him and like a guy. Like I know I'm bringing up Connor again, like a guy who had just true nasty one-punch knockout power. But Connor's weakness was always the grappling. We saw it happen against Khabib. We saw it happen against Dave Diaz. That was always his weak point.

I don't know that you can look at Illy. and say grappling is just his weak point. Like, could you say that Patty or... Yeah, like, I think Armand is probably a better wrestler than Ilya. I don't think anyone probably should dispute that. Even I probably wouldn't dispute that. But when you look at the other parts of his grappling game, like, I think he's good enough to hang.

You know what I mean? Like, he's not like... When Khabib took Connor down, we're like, oh, well, he's fucked. It's over. Or Kib took Dustin Porier down. So I think he's like, oh, well, he's fucked. Like, you just don't want to get underneath. Khabi Narragamatov.

Ilya's got a good enough ground game. Like, we saw it with Charles. Like, Charles dropped down. Charles went for the hill. He kept getting out. He slipped free and got out. And Charles is, I mean, the most submissions of UFC history. So I'm just saying, like, I think Paddy's got a shot.

But realistically, this should be a showcase really at Tepori. This should be, this should be his Sean O'Malley Cheeto Vera. This is the one where he's like, I'm a star. I'm going to go to the next fucking stratosphere with this fight. Yeah, fair. And again, I think I'm going to kind of repeat it a little bit. Like, I think Ilya has such good hands and such good power that, like, you have to grapple him. Right.

And Armin, you know, from everything I've seen, like it looks like he's probably good enough to grapple him and make it a grappling match. And whether he can dominate in the grappling and win there is yet to be seen. Same with Patty. But I just think it's a little different when you're like, you're, you're, forced to grapple and like ilia is that good on the feet where like like your your time is just limited on the feet the amount of time that you can stand with him on the feet before your lights are going out and that's very very bad news you know we see a lot of like um grapplers that end up being decent and striking or even good as striking and then you know they're able to hang on the feet long

enough to get to the ground things like that but like with ilia like again you're forced to a grapple. Like you're going to get knocked out if you don't. And that's a bad situation to be in. It's like you'd better be a hell of a wrestler because you know he's got some wrestling and obviously he's got some grappling too. So but look

when you're forced to be on the feet and it's not a place you want to be and you're risk and getting knocked out at any second, that is a terrible, terrible situation to be in. 100%. Real quick before you get out of here, I want to bring this up because you're talking about Armin and I agree. Like on paper Armand should get the title shot. But after he

dropped out of the fight in January with the injury and Dane is like you got to win one more and I get it he had an opportunity whatever happened you know I predicted it right then I was like there's no way they're going to give him the next title shot he's going to have to go out and fight again to kind of prove himself to the UFC after kind of ruining their plans

I think Armand made a massive error in signing up to be the backup for this fight I think Armand should have been fighting because if Armin goes out there and lays ways to Justin Gachie on the same card or he goes out there last week and lays ways to Justin Gage he you on the same card or whoever, Dan Hooker, name the guy, name the top five, six

lightweight in the world, goes out and does that, then he has a better argument. But we're still in the same situation we were in January. He's still like kind of on the UFC shit list a little bit. Like even on Saturday night they brought up to Dana and Dana's going like, oh, yeah, he made way, but he fucked up in January. They're still holding that against him. He shouldn't have been the backup. I think he fucked himself by that.

He should have gone out and fought sometime between January and now to solidify his Because if he goes out and beats Gaichi, one of those other guys, then you can say, well, hold on. Yes, January was a fuck-up, but I came back and I beat another guy. I'm clearly ahead of Patty. Now you still got that you fucked up in January. You didn't fight. And Patty's the bigger fight. You know what I'm saying?

I think Armand messed up. Armand should not have taken that backer, bro. I think I hurt him more than it helped him. Yeah, it puts him in a tough situation. Right. Now the nice thing is, you know, he did get through a camp and made way. So, you know, I'm sure he trained hard for it and is ready. So hopefully he can get something quickly.

I mean, I'm ready to see him. I think a gauging fight is the perfect fight there. I'm ready to see that fight. And let's see what happens there. I mean, something needs to happen right away. He needs to keep his name out there. You can't be sitting on the sidelines. People will forget about you.

The sport moves too quick. You got to go. And what happened on Saturday night was just the worst thing possible for Armand. When he's because when, when Ily is kind of mentioning you, but then he specifically calls Patty and Patty's like right there. Like Armine should have been in the front like coming up to the camera like call me out bitch, call me

that's just not who Armine is and I'm not saying he should be a fake guy to try to sell himself but like Paddy's immediately like I'll come in the cage and he's like bring that blonde bitch up here and he, Armand I'm sorry buddy you got to play the game a little bit you don't have to be Connor, you don't have to be Bisp me with Trashdog but you got to get yourself out there and I think being the backup for one didn't help him

because he's just, he's just, the, the, the, the backup guy. And, and Ilya kept throwing that back in his face the entire week, like, here's the backup bitch. Like, you know, so like, uh, that was a mistake. And then on Saturday night, because he said the guy who had the back injury or the blonde bitch, Armond should have been like, get the camera on me, double middle of something. Yeah, yeah. Well, unfortunately, he's in, he's, he's in, uh, cesspool of stars right there, right? And I think that's why you're saying that, like, you got to do something to stick out a little bit,

you know because he's in a pool of stars there you got you know between gaugie and patty and you know i mean you know all the top five lightweight guys i mean it's just a group of stars and arman you know it's unfortunate you know because of how skilled he is but his name is not usually the first one that pops up into your mind when you're thinking of this group of guys and you like listen we all understand rankings matter all this kind of things but this is still an entertainment sport like it or not it is and star power matters and like you said the hierarchy of lightweight right now on who's available it goes patty is the biggest just just in gage he's probably number two and i'm not putting porre in there because he's already fighting pori and holloway are probably right there as far as

big stars but in terms of recognition arman's pretty far down like arm and skill wise number one contender recognition wise probably like number six or seven like people just don't know him and that hurts you I don't care how you do it. It hurts you. It does. It hurts you and it's hurting Armin right now. This is the situation. Because we've seen bigger stars than him pull out of fight, you know, the larger stars

pull out of fights in the same type of situation he had in January and doesn't really make a huge difference in their life, right? Yeah. And unfortunately he's... Yeah. He's not a big enough star where they're like, hey, we're okay, we're going to figure this out for you, buddy. It's like, this is a situation that you're in and that's unfortunate a part.

of a big in entertainment sport. But look, hopefully Armin gets a fight quickly, and that's the best thing he can do. Go get a fight as quick as you can. Get the highest rank guy you can get, win the fight, and winning will solve everything for you. And I remember we were talking earlier this year about the new TV deal, and we said,

like everyone was speculating, that's why Connor hadn't fought. They're like, they're going to hold them out because they want to do the new TV deal. I don't think they care about Connor at this point, but that's why I think I think Ilya Patty is all the fight right now, because... Makes sense, yeah.

Imagine that being the first fight on Netflix. I mean, just it's going to, I mean, that's going to get, you know, that's going to, that's going to potentially beat Tyson Paul. Like, that's how big that fight could be. Like on Netflix, just being available to everybody, like without having to pay extra, dude. Well, like you said, that is probably the biggest fight in the UFC right now. So, yeah, save it for Netflix. That is a good point. I don't think it's Tyson Paul level, but.

Well, I'm saying, yeah, you're right, you're right. You're a little bit much. But I'm saying in terms of like MMA, it's the biggest thing they could do right now. Aspinall Jones is gone. Connor's gone. They'd be nuts not to do it. And they can they can also get a lot of hype behind it too. Very easy to hype up.

Armand's not going to be an easy fight to hype up. You know, they're going to show a countdown show or whatever of him, you know, in his training camp, grinding, wrestling and stuff. You know, and everybody was back, okay, the Russian guy or what is he, Georgia in a Russian? whatever. Yeah, Georgia, I think. Yeah, okay, that's real cool. We're a Patty, I mean, it's, he's going to make it interesting. I mean, Ilya, Ilya, Ilya, Alia, Ilya, Star Power alone will sell, but Ilya Armin is like December Team Mobile. It's a big fight. It's a big, you know, cool fight. Ilya Patty is Netflix. It's MSG. It's, you know, Staples Center. It's like, you know, they're selling out. Like,

it's just a, because it's one, because Ilya's a star, Armin's not. Ilya's a star, Patty's a star. That's just a collision course of just like, there's just too much there. The question is, okay, after all the hype and all the talk and Patty talking and Patty talking all this shit and pumping it up, how convinced we're going to be that Patty has a beat? I don't think me and you will be, but the general crowd, I bet the line on that fight is

not as big as we expect it to be. there were people picking Connor McGregor to beat Floyd Mayweather Matt right and to beat to be you can talk you can talk yourself into anything

okay you can this is my point and by the way Patty is not that kind of underdog I'm not I'm not comparing it to like that I'm just saying like you want to talk about hypothetical people talk themselves into people talk themselves into

Connor beating Floyd Mayweather in a professional boxing match in a 12 round professional box if you can talk yourself into that You can talk yourself into anything. Do you remember what the line was for that? I mean, I think it was like minus $750 or something. Like he was like a seven, seven or eight to one favorite.

Probably should have been like 30 to one or 40 to one. Yeah, I was going to say that's actually like better odds. I would have ever expected. Well, I think I think it started. I want to say it started like a thousand to one. I think it got bet down to like. That's how much people were betting down on it. That's wild.

And do you remember the aftermath of that was like, Connor hit him. Like, yeah, I think he hit him once with an upper cut because Floyd was like goofing off or something. And they're like, that was like the biggest, the biggest dialogue after the fight was, dude, Connor fucking hit him, bro. Like, it's pretty fucking good boxer, right?

Connor had a better chance against Kabebeeb than he did against Floyd. And he didn't have much of a chance against Kibb either. That's the debatable too, but yeah. But yeah. But if you can talk yourself into that, you can talk yourself into anything. So, yeah, I mean, like I said, be clear, I don't think Patty's that much of an underdog by any stretching imagination. I'm just saying, like, that's the wildest, wildest bet you can put on saying. I think Conner's got a legit chance of meeting Floyd Mayweather in a boxing match.

Well, and, you know, the funny part is going to be, you know, Patty's going to convince a lot of people. And even us, we're going to watch it. We're going to see the propaganda. We're going to be like, oh, man. He said some good shit there You know what I mean Like Patty's a great talker man I think it's going to be

That's going to be a great buildup I cannot wait to see the buildup for this And especially if they do put it on Netflix Because we'll get to watch the buildup You know probably on YouTube And for free on Netflix And you know Who knows what kind of behind the scenes they'll do

And That's what they need You're right That's what they need To start Netflix off Makes perfect sense All the start are lying for it.

Sucks for Armin, though. Just sucks for Armin, man. That's the downside of this whole thing. I agree. I agree. I agree. But like I said, Patty, and you can't discount the emotional factor.

We see, we saw what it did to Aldo. Man, Aldo came in their ready to take off Connor's head, and Connor took his head. He never knows. He pisses off Elya bad enough. Maybe Ilya fights outside of himself. Maybe he makes a mistake. And Patty, that's a real thing.

So the buildup's going to be fun. I'll be fun. I'll be fun. I do. I feel bad for Armin, but, you know, like I said, I think being the backup was the worst thing for me. He should have been fighting. He should have been like, give me a guy on this car. Let me fight on the undercard is.

You know, give me, give me somebody on this same card. Then he has an argument. Hey, I went out and I beat Gachy. I beat whoever. Right now he's just like, oh, yeah, I waited in his backup, but you're still pissed at me for not fighting in January. So it's so much. Yeah, I feel that. I feel that.

I think you're right on that. And, man, I've, I've had that argument for a long time. Like, just keep fighting, man. You know, especially if you're that good and you believe you're that good, like keep fighting. Like, don't wait for shit, man. You can't. The sport moves too quick. It does, 100%.

We're going to get out of here, Matt. Obviously, hopefully you feel better. We really do appreciate you doing the show. I know you're under the weather. We got July 4th on Friday. Do you do anything, July 4th of the kids or anything with the holiday this week? Well, we'll see how I feel. You know, but, you know, I'm not a big party guy or whatever.

So, you know, and I've seen enough. fireworks for my lifetime. So if the kids want to do something, we'll do something with them, which we can see them from our backyard. So we don't need to do a ton. I just got to watch my dogs because they freak out with the fireworks. Oh, yeah. I was like,

yeah, like I'm all 4 July 4th, and patriotism, all that kind of good stuff, but the fireworks fucked fireworks. I don't need the fireworks. I don't need any of that. I went to red, we have a thing here in Columbus called Red, Red, White, and Boom. I went to it one time. I was like, yeah, I never need to go again. That's like the one time I need to go to that. Especially how crowded it is.

Yeah, I went once. This was years ago. I went one time. I was like, yeah, this was, I got some, I got some, like, food there, and I sat down on the lawn and watched fireworks for, like, 45 minutes. I'm like, wow, this was all the parking. This is not worth it. This is totally not worth it. This is absolutely not worth it for the $9 hot dog I just bought or whatever it was.

I do have a friend who has a downtown office where they have a party in the office, and you can see it. It's like the, you know, 50th floor or whatever it is, and you can see it from there. and that's pretty cool, actually. You know, everybody's, you get to sit inside and in the air conditioning and, you know, you got catered food and drinks and everybody's relaxing on the couch and looking out the window. That's about 100 times better if you ask me. I got spoiled because I went to a couple of UFC events and they had a couple of events at like baseball stadiums or like basketball stadiums and they had us up in a suite.

So I got to go to like a Chicago Bulls game and I'm in the suite. And I went to a Milwaukee Brewers game and I'm in the suite. And I'm just like, how can I go back to being like a regular fan now? Like I'm in the suite. They got like catered food and you got really nice seats and like private, like walls up. So you don't have to see the people next to you. And I'm just like, I am so spoiled now. Like this is so much better than just being down in the crowd.

Yeah, you don't want to go back with the peasants, right? You don't want to go back once to normal people. You normies. All right. Matt, we appreciate you doing this while you're not feeling well. Obviously we'll be back. I'll give you a chance for you get out of here. People want to check you out.

what else you got going on as you recover from your illness. I am the immortal Instagram Twitter, the immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. See you guys there. Hit me up. All right, folks. We appreciate tuning in. As always, make sure you check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify. And, of course, over on the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com.

For Matt Brown, I'm Damon. Martin. We'll see you next week. For another edition of The Fighter versus the Rider. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then.