MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Praises Kayla Harrison, Explains How Khalil Rountree Could Beat Alex Pereira at UFC 307

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

The Fighter vs. The Writer returns with UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin looking ahead at UFC 307 and some of the biggest storylines in the sport including: — Michael Chandler moving on but does this spell the end for Conor McGregor? — Alex Pereira stepping into a potential "trap" fight on Saturday — Matt explains how Khalil Rountree could pull off the upset against Pereira — Are we about to enter the Kayla Harrison era in the women's bantamweight division? All this and more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Nothing quite makes a holiday gathering pop like turning on the music. And if you're looking to set the mood, you should check out Sonos. With Sonos, movie nights feel bigger and more cinematic. While holiday parties come to life with music that flows from room to room, it's the kind of sound that makes a house feel warm and connected during the season. Want studio quality sound at home? Explore Sonos speakers, soundbars, and more at Sonos.com and discover how easy it is to build your own whole home audio system.

You know what's better than the one big thing? Two big things. Exactly. The new iPhone 17 Pro on TELUS' five-year rate plan price lock. Yep, it's the most powerful iPhone ever, plus more peace of mind with your bill over five years. This is big. Get the new iPhone 17 Pro at tellus.com slash iPhone 17 Pro on select plans. Conditions and exclusions apply.

The Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the fighter versus the writer. Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown back from a trip in Thailand. How much time did you spend in the Taiwan? Taiwan, Thailand jail. I got lucky and stayed out of jail this time. You did get to, you did get to referee some interesting matches for fight circus, which of course I think we all saw on Instagram.

Yeah, yeah. So, dude, that video, that's been the most viewed video in my. entire Instagram life. Like, people love the dick kicking. So, and what a fascinating thing, though, too, right? So it was, we originally came up with the idea as kind of a parody of for PowerSlapp, right? We're like, well, at least they're not getting brain damage. So we're like, you think we can't out dumb Power Slap? Well, here you go.

We just did. I was going to say, don't give Dana White any ideas. You'll be seeing the Dick Kicking Championships coming to PowerSlapp before you know it. exactly yeah so hey with that many views that we got I think the last I checked we had over 30 million views

on Instagram so I think Dana might be interested now once he sees the content insights was that literally the conversation like what could we do that would be like more wild than power slap out dumb power slap that was our goal from beginning

as soon as we've seen power slap we're like this is the dumbest thing ever we're like wait a minute we can get dumber come on now we can out dumb that shit how how bad was it because like you know as a guy like there's a rule when you see another guy take a shot like just like when you watch a growing shot in mama like when you hear a really bad cup shot in mhmma we all cringe we're all like oh how bad was it being the referee and watch these dudes just like because i can't imagine just voluntarily letting someone like that just that's like against insubes. That's like against

instinct, right? Like, you're just like, how can you do that? I have no idea how I found the guys to do it. But since the, we put the video out and started, you know, I guess putting out that we're doing this, we've had hundreds of people say that they're in. Like, this social media is so powerful now. People want to be social, famous, so bad, they're willing to take dick kicks for it. But we did set some rules. They were allowed to wear cups. Okay, so they're not metal cups. They wore plastic cups. There's no, you had to start your foot from the floor, right? You couldn't swing your foot. And yeah, I guess that was all the rules. Not a ton of rules. Now you didn't, now, I saw the video. I saw you referee and they did not get Matt Brown to step into one of these matches.

We haven't seen the video of yet, did we? No, there's not enough money for me to step in there and do that. But ref, it was fun, man. You know, the guys were really great sports about it, too. They had a good time. The one guy, so he kind of waved his arms. You might see it in the video on Instagram where he kind of waved his arms. And to me, being the ref, I'm like, okay, that means you want to quit.

So I called it off. And he's like, no, I want to keep going. I'm like, dude, you're getting paid like a hundred bucks. Like, fucking just quit. Yeah. There's no, there's no amount. Like, I see power slap and I'm already like there's no amount of money. There definitely is not enough money for me to like take some.

someone just like voluntarily just kicking you right in the balls. But you don't want kids, right? I don't, but that doesn't mean I want the pain and suffering of that either. What's the problem then? Like, it's healthier than getting CTE from Power Slap. I don't want either one of them. I'll just go ahead and pass on either one of them. So yeah, no Power Slap, no Dick Kicking Championship.

I'll pass on all those. Well, we have officially outdone Power Slap. And like I said, we went viral, bro. So we're ready to do it again. so if you know anybody out there who wants to get kicked in the dick for virality you know who to call yeah there's got to be there's got an ex-fighter out there who's willing to do it you know there is like they got page van zant to do power slap there's got to be somebody out there she ended up doing that yeah she did and she won't seen it yeah i heard her i remember hearing her

talking about doing it and then i never seen her do it yeah she did it she she actually won her matches and said she wants to go back and do it again i was like all right you know i talked to her about afterwards. She said she had fun. So I'm like, all right, do you know, more power to me. I just, I don't know, man. I don't, there was a study. I think, I think, I think, did you see it on Twitter? Yeah, you saw it on Twitter where it said like 78% or whatever has brain damage and you're like, really? You're kidding me. I can't believe it. Was that before or after they did power slap? Now you, now, hold on now. You actually, you actually kind of like power slap at the very,

very beginning. But I think your opinion changed over time. Well, I knew it was the dumbest thing ever. But the entire, look, Dana did, we know why he did it, right? It's not to sell pay per views. It's for viral content, right? He's not trying to sell tickets. It's viral content.

And it works well for that. Like, he's not wrong on that. And for, you know, to watch it a couple of times on Instagram, you know, scrolling through your social media scrolling through facebook and it comes across yeah you're going to stop and watch it's like a car crash like what the fuck is this are you kidding me um but yeah as a as as as as he's trying to legitimize the sport the fact that it got approved by commissions i kind of disgust me right the fact that they just did it and did it for some virality cool the fact that commission said okay you can do this like that's a that's a clear like commission's not giving a

about their actual job, which is to protect people. Yeah, I remember they did it here in Columbus. They did it at the Arnold's a couple years ago. I think that was one. Yeah, because, like, Logan Paul was there. Like, he was, like, watching it or whatever. I didn't, I wasn't there. I remember they did it, though.

And they had Logan Paul come in as, like, a special guest or whatever. And he was, like, kind of like a referee, although I don't think there's, are there referees in this? I don't know. Anyways, he was there. And it was, I think it was, like, the first slap match with women, like, on, this stage or whatever and they did it. And it kind of blew up and I knew they did

to the Arnold's but it wasn't like, you know, everyone knew what it was like, you know, no one's, you know, the Ohio commission wasn't hanging out and watching it. But you're right. Like, Nevada Commission and all these places like sanctioning it. Like, I, it's wild to me. Like that just, again, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

brain damage candy. Like, you know, you can say like, you can say you don't like watching bare knuckle because it gets a little bloody, but ultimately, bare knuckle is really no worse than MMA and boxing. You can say it. Like it's disgusting that it's pathetic and disgusting that the commissions allow this to happen

and sanctioned it to happen. A bare knuckle, like you said, it's just bloody. I mean, there's actually less handbrakes. There's less brain damage. It's actually safer and a long run. Just look, the optics of it look a lot worse, which is what we like. We like bloodbats. You're right.

We're bucking barbarians that love, you know, we're human beings. We like seeing car crashes, right? We don't like everybody being damaged from it. Bare knuckle fits both. They don't get his damage and we see a lot more blood. Yeah. But that's, you're, and I think that,

like, I think that, and again, I'm not, you know, I'm not going to, you know, Dana can make his money,

however he wants to make money, make his money, it's fine. But the commissions, like, as you said, you can't, you can't sit there and say that you're about the safety of the

fighters and the safety of athletics when, like, do you think they would sanction like a football league where it's just like helmet to helmet contact constantly. No. Like no. You know, like they just spend like a billion dollar lawsuit over concussions

and CTEU and football players. Like, that's basically what you're saying. Like we're like, okay, we're okay with guys just literally punching each other with no defense and we don't care. Like, don't tell me you care about the safety of the athletes and you're like, oh, power slap's cool. Okay, no problem. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly right.

Hey, I have no hate for Dana. I mean, he's he's making the money, right? He's doing what he loves doing and promoting events and making money doing it. Like I said, going viral. You know, everybody watches it. Everybody knows about it. And that's what makes the dollars, right? He's getting sponsors and all that stuff.

But the commissions saying that this is okay to do, that to me is pathetic and disgusting. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Especially, like I said, you can't high hand and say, we're all about the safety of sport and then go do that. Anyways. Exactly. Exactly.

So we got UOC 307 coming up this week in Alex Perey back in action, Kloor Roundtry, Raquel Pennington, defending her title. But, Matt, you've been gone for a few weeks. And listen, we know your favorite subject to talk about in a sport, of course, is Connor McGregory, your favorite fighter. We all know. Oh, God, here we go. But you, we've talked about, people like, oh, my God, here we go again.

I'm only bringing this up because this was, like, one of the biggest stories that came out while you were gone. And the reason, the main reason I'm bringing you. up. Literally one of the last times we spoke right before you took your little hiatus when you went to Thailand was you basically said it's time for Michael Chandler to move on. Like he's got to, like at this point we got to, he got to move on. He's moved on. He's now fighting Charles Olivaire in November. He moved on and, and you know, he did his thing. And, you know, Conner's still talking about coming back in 2025. I talked to Chandler right after the news came out and I said, look, man, I said my opinion was give it to the end of the year. If it didn't happen, move on. Well, clearly it wasn't happening by the end of the year. He moved on. Can't really fault Chandler at this point. And also, one thing Chandler said to me that I actually appreciated, he's like, I don't hold any ill will towards Connor because I chose to do this. Like, no one can get mad at Connor. Like, I could have stepped out at any point and said, I'm not waiting. Or I could have taken a fight and said, I'm not waiting. This was my choice.

He's like, I'm not mad at Connor. He's like, that's not Connor's fault. It was my choice to sit out. No one told me I had to do it. And the UFC didn't say, hey, man, you got to sit out wait for Connor. This was my choice. But, you know, ultimately, I'm just saying, like, good for him, man. Like, you know, it's time to move on. And I think people are more and more sharing your way of wisdom of saying that Connors, we've probably seen Connor fight for the last time already.

Yeah, and I wondered if Chandler listened to our podcast and was like, yeah, dude, I think Matt's right. I should move on. But, no, the, um, that, um, that, that's an interesting fight too. I did not expect him to get the Olivera fight, you know, when he was ready to move on. And that makes for a really interesting fight, especially being, you know, he lost Olivera, but I think that he has the skills to beat Olivera. But now he's been sitting out for two years, right?

Yeah, two or three years. Two years. Two years. Yeah, he's been sitting out for two years now. You know, and Olivera, man, he's been staying pretty active, right? So that's a, you got to give credit to Chandler for having the balls to come back against the guy like Oliver. Yeah. I mean, listen, you know, there's high risk, high reward in every fight you take, whether you're fighting a Charles Oliver or not.

But, you know, kudos to Chandler. Like, he didn't come back and say, give me a fight I know I can win. He's actually fighting a guy he already lost to. So I'm glad he's back and I'm glad he's just kind of moving on it. And, you know, as you said, like you said this before, even if Chandler looked at him, loses, which I don't know that he will, but if he loses, who's to say Connor still wouldn't want that fight? Like if Connor actually comes back? Like, there's nothing there. I think the bigger question is like, you know, at what point, you know, are we just convinced that the Connor thing

is just we got to move on from Connor because, you know, at this point, there's nothing that I know of that's restricting him from fighting. Like, you know, he had a broken pinky toe. And I know you mentioned their severity of, you know, what is a broken pinky toe? What is the broken toe? How bad is it? Things like that. You can play into like how bad the injury was. But he's healthy.

Unless the UFC is holding him out, which I guess there's a possibility that's true. I know everyone's saying, well, this TV deal next year. They don't want to get Connor. And listen, you know, Connor, maybe a little bit shooting himself in the foot a little bit because Connor's been, you know, hugely promoting BKFCs, a part owner now. He's saying openly, like, I want to fight that. and Dave Feldman, the president of BKFC,

said something to be very interesting last week. He said, why wouldn't Connor fight here? Because he's going to make more money. Because even if they sell a million pay-per-views versus the UFC selling a million pay-per-views, he's going to get more money because he no longer has to share that with the UFC. Like he's a part owner in BKFC. His payout's going to be bigger. Like, you know what I mean?

So maybe that's maybe the UFC is like, oh, well, BKFCC, you want to do that. that you know like we really are going to hold your contract until we get this TV deal done maybe that is part of it I don't know well I find it hard to believe that the UFC would let him go without getting a piece of that pie either though right like that so even if he's a part owner and all that you know just like when he fought Floyd like you know the UFC got a piece of that so um yeah I think there's probably there may be a lot more going on behind the scenes than we know about and that could have something to do like did you see Connor's little rant the other day on his little stream, you know, and I mean, it's clear.

Like, he's, he's not, he's not grinding the way that a guy getting ready to compete. It should be grinding. So I'm still on the, I'm still on the same thought process of, look, we're probably never going to see Connor again. If we do, like, I would not be blown away, you know, and I would say, okay, I was wrong, like, whatever. I don't think we're seeing them again in the UFC cage. There's just time like time catches up to everybody and I think you know people kind of forget like at this point we're already past three years.

We're closer to four years now that we are three years. And you know, coming back from the broken leg and Conner's 36, you know, he's not a young guy anymore. I mean, these are all things you can't ignore when you talk about this subject. And as you said millions of times, like he's got all the money in the world. He's not in a situation where he's like, I need to pay my bills the end of this month. You know what I mean? like he's not in that situation. There's just a lot of factors that go into like why we may never see him again.

And when the, when the Chandler fight got announced, that was, that was to me the sign. I was like, man, like I've said to you many times, I was like,

I think you might be right about this because I kind of battled against it for a while. But the more and more, these things keep piling up to give me evidence that maybe, maybe that really is it. And, you know, again, listen, I know you said this also.

Go ahead. Look, if he comes back, who does he come back again? like the division is moved on the connor of 2016 is not the Connor of today there is not I can't think of a single good matchup

for him in the top 10 not in the top 10 I mean I'm sure there's fights out there of course and you know lightweight that he can win but of course yeah I mean there's a million lightweights in the world but he's I mean he's got to fight a top 10 guy he's Connor McGregor there's no way he comes

back fighting number 20 or 25 or something he has to fight a top 10 guy. Who could he, who's a decent matchup for him in top 10 to come back after four years? Yeah. Well, in the reality, and the other thing you got to remember with Connor is there's also like it or not, there's got to be name value attached to that. He just can't fight some dude.

Now, will we still, will we still, will people still watch just because Connor is fighting some dude? Sure. But it's not good. Like, even, even you can say like Cowboy Soroni when he fought Cowboy towards the tail into Cowboys career. like cowboy was still a name like cowboy was still an established

name you can't just fight some random dude and people are going to care that much and yeah I mean is he going to fight Porre again is he going to fight Gaichy like I don't know any of those end well for him and I don't know if those guys

Porre yeah I doubt would even be interested in fighting him again I don't think Porier would even want to sign that he'd like dude I beat you twice like fuck you you know you know, Gagie, would he be interested in it? Because the problem now that everybody would have, too, is it is just a money fight. You know, it's not going to get you closer to a title beating Connor McGregor other than bringing your name value up. Right?

Am I wrong on that? No, no, you're not. You know, beating, beating Connor McGregor is not, you know, he might skip the line on a little bit because you just, you know, blew your name up a lot. but no one's going to be like, yeah, you know, you deserve a title fight now that you just beat Connor McGregor. Yeah. Yeah, it's not the same world. I say this to people all the time we talk about it. It's wild to think about the last time that Connor held the UFC title was eight years ago.

2016. We are literally coming up on the eighth anniversary of that. And I think we just kind of live in the past a little bit with things like that. Listen, sport. Yeah, I was marveled, you know, when Rhonda Rousey was doing all her interviews and, talking about her UFC run. I was blown away to realize how short it actually was. Like, she was only in the UFC for a few years.

Like, when you really think she started in 2015 or 2014, she was gone by 2016. Like, it was a short, when you really think about it, it was a pretty short period of time. She probably eight times or nine times in that span of time. But she was kind of here and gone. And when I say about Connor, it's like, that was eight years ago. Like, that's the last time he held a UFC title. The last time he fought for a UFC title was, six years ago with Kabeeb in 2018.

Like, it's wild. So, like it or not, like, is Connor still the biggest name? Sure, just like Floyd is a massive name in boxing, but is it the same Floyd now? No, there's a reason why he's doing exhibition matches against John Gotti the third and not fighting, you know, Canelo or, you know, Terrence Crawford or whoever. Like, it's not, you know, it's not the same guy that it would have been back in the day. No, that's exactly right. it's too bad that Connor can't go out and do like exhibition matches or you know have fun matches in the UFC

you know which again I don't really know who would match that requirement like the UFC's not like really a place for a bunch of fun stuff right like it's where it's where the ultimate warriors of the of the world come together and right it's the Super Bowl so there's not a lot of fun matchups that you know in that regard for him. But I think it would be cool to see him do. And I think that's kind of what he would want to do like with a bare knuckle thing, right? He would want to get, you know, like the Jeremy Stevens types, you know, that are probably good matchups. You know, guys that are older. And Stephen is a dangerous guy, too. I love Jeremy Stevens, nothing on him. But, you know, someone like him is a good matchup for Connor and bare knuckle. Someone that's older who's been around, who's taken, had a lot of miles on them. Yeah. It's just weird that this might be how Connor McGregor's running the he comes to an end, right? Like, it's just an odd for a guy who is, you could argue more important for this sport than anybody else ever.

And that's, I'm not trying to discredit, you know, Hoyst Gracie's contributions. And you know, my opinion that's like John Jones is the goat, all those kinds of. I'm talking about, like, getting popular, getting attention on this sport, blowing, you know, a singular focus outside of Dana White or, you know, endeavor buying.

I'm not, I don't know, one person. I don't think anyone's had a bigger, influence on growing the sport in terms of blowing it up than Connor has in terms of a fighter. The modern area. Yeah, and to think that his era ends with him

with that broken leg against Dustin Porre and the never fighting again, which is potential. It's kind of odd, right? To think that's how it may end. Well, it when that happened, it looked to me like Dustin took his soul that day, right?

I think we all kind of looked at, probably felt that maybe we didn't know it would be as severe as it is we thought you know connor's a warrior he's going to be back soon but when you look back and you watch that fight like dustin took his fucking soul like like i thought that nate dyes might have taken a little bit the first time but connor bounced back from it whatever dustin did to him like i think he actually like took his soul and he would no longer had the desire to compete anymore yeah and you and i know you said this before, it's tough to give that up.

It's tough to give up that spotlight. You know what I mean? It's tough to give up that attention. And that's what you kind of cling on to that a little bit, right? Like it's say, you know, you're not fighting, but as you said, like, I know you said, it's not to paraphrase what you said, but, you know, you're not fighting, but you still want to cling on to that spotlight. You still want to cling on that attention.

Absolutely. And one of the arguments that I've seen where they're like, you know, when I was said, look, Connor's got so much money and, and, you know, that's part of the reason he'll never come back. One of the arguments I've seen regularly is like, well, LeBron has all his money and comes back. Floyd makes all his money and come back. Connor is neither of those. Like, those are the two of the greatest athletes in their sport. Connor at one point had a potential to be one of the greatest and did great things. He's not even close to one of the greatest fighters in our sport. Yeah. Important is different than greatest. Important is different than greatest.

Yes, yes. Like he's not even top five of the greatest. You know, you're talking about like a guy like Floyd, you know, is a top five all-time great in most lists. You know, LeBron, Michael Jordan, like those are all-time greats. Connor is nowhere near that. Yeah, I agree. I agree.

And you got, again, you got to differentiate between a big draw and an all-time great. You know what I mean? Yeah. Connor, when you know what drawing power, Connor was massive. Connor doesn't sniff John Jones in terms of accomplishments. He doesn't sniff Anderson Silva in terms of accomplishments. He doesn't sniff George St. Pierre in terms of Demetrius Johnson. Like the list goes on and on.

Yeah, like I said, we could probably name 10. Like he's probably not in the top 10, but certainly not in the top five. Yeah. Real quick, where we move on to UFC 307 and getting some picks and predictions, I want to give you a chance. A guy you know really, really well. Another thing that happened while you were gone. Demetri's Johnson, of course, announced his retirement.

I know you knew DJ pretty well from when you were out training and Matt Humes out there in Washington. Part of me is sad because Demetrius was such a talented dude, but at the same time, we all have this tendency in this sport to like want to see guys come back, and then when they retire, we're like, oh, man, it's too soon. Nobody ever goes out on top of the sport. I'm happy for Demetrius, man.

He seems happy. He seems content doing what he's doing. But I know you knew Demetrius very well, so I wanted to kind of give you a second to, to speak about Demetrius' career and his legacy. He's leaving behind now that he's retired. Yeah, well, that was it, man. We were pretty close back when he was actually an amateur when I first met him.

I think he'd made it had his first pro fight while I lived out there. And, you know, we were pretty close. We all knew he was going to be a great fighter. We all knew he was going to be a champion in the UFC. Obviously, no one can predict that you're going to be one of the greatest of all time, one of the greatest martial artists of all time. And, yeah, me and DJ haven't necessarily kept in touch. But I under a lot of respect for him, knowing them as a human being back then.

And as great as he is, as a martial artist and how much respect I have for him as a martial artist, just knowing him as a person and as a human being first, he's just one of the greatest humans that you'll ever meet. Yeah, he's a good dude, man. And happy for him. You know what I mean? Like I said, happy. You know, there's those rare moments when you're not sad when a guy retires in the sport, sadly, you know how that goes. This is an instance where I'm like, good for him, man. he went out, he won his last fight, and I appreciate his honesty.

He's like, it's just not, you know, it's not as much fun for me anymore. And I'm just not into it. And I think I wish there's a level of honesty in that that I kind of wish more fighters would have. Because you know, as well as I do, some guys fight beyond that expiration date for exactly what you always talk about, which is that feeling. You can't get that feeling anywhere else, and it's hard to let that go. I'm glad the DJ seems happy and content with what he's doing. And, yeah, we talk about greatest of all times. like, you know, Connor doesn't let on that list.

Demetrius sits on that list. I don't know where on that list, but he's somewhere on that list. Absolutely. It's debatable whether he's, you know, number one or two or three, right? Like, but he's one of the top three. So, you know, he has an argument for being on the Mount Rushmore of Grates. So, yeah, a ton of respect to him. But I like, too, that he stepped out on his terms when he was ready.

Like you said, he wasn't feeling anymore. A lot of these guys are coming back for money. You know, like you said, some guys are chasing that feeling. I say more often than not it's for money though, right? None of us are financial experts that we didn't get into MMA because we, you know, we were going to, you know, we had our heads straight on, you know, no loose screws or anything. Everything was tightened up in there. We're like, dude, this is a solid business.

And I got a business plan and a strategy to play this out and make money. And, you know, we all just ended up making money somehow out of this. And we don't know what the hell to do with this. But DJ, on the other hand, you know, I think has his head on proper head on straight. And just like I said, just a good person all around. He's got great people around. And Matt Heum's one of the greatest of all time. So I'm happy for DJ, happy as I could be.

It's funny. I watched this documentary on Netflix last week called Mr. McMahon. It's like a six-part thing on Vince McMahon in WWE. I wanted to watch that. Yeah. It's pretty good. It's a good documentary. I think my biggest problem with is like if you're a hardcore wrestling fan, you probably knew about 90% of what's in there.

But most people aren't hardcore wrestling fans. Like, you know, I was, I went to pro wrestling school. I know pro wrestling very well. So like for me, I was like, oh, I kind of knew that. I kind of knew that. But it was still fun to watch the interviews and kind of see the other. But the one thing I would say pro wrestlers really do share with fighters is when you are, when you are passionate about pro wrestling, you're not thinking about long term. You're not thinking about I'm going to make a million dollars and I'm going to headline this show and I'm going to retire in 10 years.

You do it because you love it. And then at some point it does become a financial thing where you're like, well, I can go do this show, make 500 bucks. I get a name, whatever. There's a kindred spirit there because guys who love pro wrestling just love it. Like, I paid to go to pro wrestling school. I didn't get to go there for free. Like I paid to go and I did performances because I loved doing it. It was fun for me.

I think that's the thing that gets lost when you talk about like fighter pay and people, you know, money, not saying you shouldn't. I'm just saying I think there's like that disconnect where a lot of fighters just love fighting. Like, you know, they're not stepping into it because like, oh, I'm going to become a millionaire. Does that happen occasionally? Sure. But, you know, like you didn't, when you first started fighting, I'm sure you didn't think, oh, man, I'm going to make $10 million. No, there wasn't that kind of money around when I started either. But again, you know, that's exactly. right like no one steps into this thinking you know it's because we got some business plan and

strategy and and all this you know there's there's like these cycles that kind of i've i've seen a lot of fighters kind of go through where you know you have this love for the sport and you love martial arts and you have a passion for training and then you find out you're kind of good at it and then you start to excel and start to succeed in it and then you maybe you get to like the ufc or or or or some, you know, about really the UFC. And then you kind of start realizing like, oh, I'm fighting for money, right? Like this isn't going to last forever. And then you start actually fighting for money.

And then kind of now your passion kind of starts getting lost a little bit, right? And you're kind of thinking there's other ways to make money, right? Like, why am I doing this for money? And then some guys, you know, they're a little bit ahead of the curb, right? Like some guys, I think, do kind of see that bigger picture from the beginning. as soon as they start making money doing this, they start investing in different things and start spreading, you know,

diversifying their income streams a little bit. But more often than not, it's the first one, right? And then they end up fighting for money longer than they should. I'm going to guess that's probably like what Nick Diaz is doing right now. Don't know for sure, you know, I don't know Nick like that, but, you know, he seems like the kind of prototypical guy it's probably out there looking for a payday now you got to think they like he took the robbie lawler fight for a payday right you know so i think this is just a common uh cycle that fighters go through and you know going back to like

dj i don't think that was the way it worked for him i think he was he had good people around them um seen the bigger picture and that's one of the things i try to work with on my younger athletes you know see the bigger picture use the ufc they're going to use you use them to magnify your brand, use it to diversify your income, build other income streams off of it. It doesn't mean you have to take your time or energy away from competing and training, but use it for what it's good for because it's not going to last. And then you end up like me at 43 years old or three kids and you're trying to figure out how to make money.

So it's a, you know, and I'm doing okay, right? I'm not hurting or anything. You know, I've been smart about it. But, but I can also look at it realistically and be like, look, I'm not making what I was then. fortunately I prepared for it but I think a lot of guys don't and then they end up broke or they end up fighting

when they shouldn't be fighting. Yeah, it's a harsh reality. Like I said, the harsh reality of sport. Black Friday is here at IKEA and the clock is ticking on savings you won't want to miss. Join IKEA family for free today and unlock deals on everything

from holiday must-haves to cozy at-home essentials. All the little and big things you need to make this season But don't wait. Like leftovers at midnight, our Black Friday offers won't last. Shop now at IKEA.ca.ca.com. Bring home to life. With Instacard, you get groceries that over-deliver, so you can over-share your preferences. Want russet potatoes with no brown spots? You got it.

Want turnips that look light but feel heavy? Easy. Want honey crisp apples that are firm green and definitely not Macintosh like last year when you lost the fall bakeoff to perfect Penelope Johnson. Okay, a bit TMI, but we're here for it. So download the app today and get zero delivery fees on your first three orders. Instacard, groceries that over deliver. Service fees exclusions and terms apply. You'll see 307 this weekend, Matt.

I know we've talked so many times in this show, your admiration for Alex Pereira and what he's been doing, obviously taking on Kulululul-Roundtree. I know you used to train in Vegas. Did you know Kulul at all? Have you met Kulul at all? Nope, never met him. Cole is a good guy. I've interviewed him a couple times.

Obviously, dynamic striker. You know, very, I mean, still dangerous guy. We've talked about him in this show. Talking about, like, still to this day, shocked the way he dealt with Gokon Saki, a guy who, you know, if you would have said, who's going to have the better MMA career, Alex Praer, or Gokong Kosaki at the time. I've been like, oh, Go Kansaki, that guy's a beast.

Because how good he was in gigboxing. Didn't work out that way. This is a bit of a trap fight, though, for Alex, isn't it? Because everyone's talking about the Magumadank and Kola. thing everyone's talking i mean i said if he i said if he wins this weekend john jones or tom aspinall it could be a fight for him because like tell i know people are going to get pissed off me saying this if john jones beats steep in me eochage tell me that john jones versus alice prayer isn't a bigger fight than anything else they could get in this sport no events to tom aspinall i love tom aspinal i'm

just saying in terms of magnitude john jones alice prayer is as big as you can get without connor mcgregor being involved that's massive he says he wants to get out of the middle way to fight dracus i don't love that idea because I don't think he needs to go down to middleweight, but I'm not going to fault a guy. But this is a trap fight because a lot of people aren't picking Khalil. He's the number eight guy. He has one, I think one win of a ranked guy, which is Anthony Smith. Like, this is not a fight that Alex should lose, yet there is a chance he loses here. No, that's exactly right. And, man, Khalil poses a lot of dangers for him. That is for absolutely sure. And I've said it a million in times that Alex Prayer is not, I don't want to come across the wrong way because I have a ton

of admiration for, but he is not the striker that people make him out to be. I mean, he is a very great striker. Is he the greatest of all time striking? I don't think so. And he, he is vulnerable, I think is more what I'm getting at. Like, I don't want to take anything away from Alex Prayer. I don't want to come across the wrong way. So I have to be careful with my words because Alex Breyer is absolutely great. And he's done things in this sport that Very few, if anybody is done, you know, in the short time that he's done. He's done it with his kickboxing. But,

Khalil is a problem for him. I believe that wholeheartedly. Kaleel is an absolute problem for him. What I pick Kaleo to win, it's hard to pick him to win. But if he, if Kaleo goes out there and knocks at Oxpere, I would not be shocked one bit. So you know, like I know, like you know the sport in general. but you know striking, you know, extremely, extremely well,

because I know, of course, you know, you love that part of the art form. If I asked you, where does Khalil Roundtree present the biggest problems for Alex Pereira? Where would you point out? Because I can't ask him that question because you're never going to get away your game plan. But if you look at Khalil Roundtree and say, this is where he presents the biggest problems, where does he present the biggest problems for Alex Brerah? Well, I do think Khalil is a sharper and more explosive striker,

which is where a lot of the problems could be for Alex. Because Alex, I've said it many times, like he doesn't do things on paper technically the way like you would teach someone to do it coming in first day. You cannot teach Alex Pereira's style. So if you look at it, if you put the two side by side hitting pads or shadow box or something, you'd be like, well,

Khalil's the better fighter here. But that's what kind of makes it interesting because Alex Pereer also has seen Khalil's style a million times, knows how to deal with it. And most of the time doesn't have problems with it. But if you watch Alex's glory fights, yeah, that is where he had problems with guys that stayed sharp and technical and didn't make the big mistakes. And so if I'm coaching Khalil, that's what I'm telling. Like, don't make the big mistake.

Don't fall into the traps and don't make the big mistake, right? Because Alex absolutely has the knockout power to capitalize on that big mistake. But Khalil, he is sharp and he is powerful. and when he hurts you, he knows how to finish. So that's why I say, I do think he's a problem for Alex. I'm not going to pick him to win, though, just because Alex is on a hot streak.

All the stars seem to be aligned for Alex. And look, Alex is getting better, too. He is getting better all the times. I think the biggest question is just the size. You know, Alex is a big 185, but he was able to make 1A5. Khalil is a big guy. So I think he's dealing with someone, you know, closer to his size this time and strength that maybe, you know, I guess he has dealt with it before, but not in the way that he's going to deal with it with Khalil.

Yeah. It's interesting. I think I saw you retweet this while you were gone. Because when you talk about Alex Perra not being the most technical fighter, you said that before. I think people misconstrue what you're saying. there was a video that I think it was Drake's Duplice put out where he was talking about people breaking down his style and he's just like what are you talking about like there's not like there's not this technicality he's like I just go out there and fight and win like you know what I mean he's not like I'm not necessarily focusing on is my left foot inside his foot like the way they're breaking it down he's kind of joking like you're going way too in depth there like with what my style is and I know you reach me it's kind of funny I kind of feel like Alex has a little bit of that Dracus where it's just like yeah he doesn't do things as technically sound as like some of the greatest technical kickboxers in the world. But, and I know you said this before, and I'll say it here.

It's what works. Like, you know, like, he doesn't need to be the most technical striker because it's what works. Like, he just, he has that death touch. It's like Derek Lewis. Does Derek Lewis the most proficient striker you've ever seen in him? I mean, the hell no. No one would say he's like this technical wizard. But all Derek Lewis needs is for you to make one wrong move, like Curtis plays didn't.

He ducked his head when he should have not ducked his head and he got caught with an uppercut and and and and Derek lays him out. That's kind of like the Alexson. He's Alex the most technically sound strike on the planet. No, but it doesn't really matter for him because he just needs you to get out of position one time he touches you and you're waking up saying, what just happened? That's it. And that's why I said, look, if you're Khalil's coach, say, look, don't make the big mistake.

You know, stay technical, stay sharp. And that kind of goes back to something. I was having a conversation with a guy the other day. And he was like, you know, he's arguing that wrestling is the best base for MMA. And my argument for a long time now has been, look, there is no, the best base for MMA, you know what that is, is athleticism, reactions, things like that. Like, you can pick up Ressling, MMA wrestling. You can pick up MMA striking if you're athletic and, you know, explosive and reactive and

things like that. It's not about the base. It's about the athlete. And Alex is absolutely. picked everything up in MMA very, very well. With that said, this, that he can, because of that athleticism,

because of that, you know, reactiveness and knowing himself, which is very important, he knows who he is and how he fights and how to set things up the way he wants to set him up, that's why he can get away with some less technical things. Kaleel, you know, again, if I'm coaching, I'm saying, like, don't try to get away with that shit. Stay sharp, stay technical, keep the match close and wait for the opportunity. Because Alex will provide opportunities.

Like he is open for opportunities. Like Adasani capitalized on it. Many guys in glory capitalized on it. But you can't try to force that because Alex knows that you're coming to do that, if that makes sense. Yeah, the last guy who fought and beat Alex and Glory, Ardham, Vakita, I think it's his name. I just interviewed him earlier today. He's fighting in the Contender Series next week.

He's a legit light heavyweight. He had the two close decisions with Alex and Glory. One was a split decision. One was a majority decision. He's coming in. And, you know, he's already talked a little bit. He's like, I look forward to test that strike against Alex. I think there's a reason why he's on the Contender series with three MMA fights.

The same reason Alex came in the UFC with like four MMA fights. They see it. They know the possibilities there. So, yeah. But like I said, I do feel like this is a. potential of a trap fight for Alex. He's got to be careful because Kalil Roundtree is no joke and you know we can talk about Anklea we can talk about John Jones we can talk about Aspinall we can talk about

Dracus none of that matters if you lose to Kalil Roundtree maybe he gets an automatic rematch but none of that matters you lose this weekend so I think this a bit of a trap fight because we're all we're all guilty of it Matt we all think what would he do next what's his next fight none of it matters you don't get through Kalil around tree and this is the guy who shouldn't be here right like Kalil shouldn't be here I think Khalil would probably tell you he didn't necessarily earn this. He didn't go through like a murderer's role like anyways to get this title shot. So he's kind of playing with house money right now.

No, that's exactly. And if you look at the guys that Alex lost to, I mean, I've just said it and I'll say it again. You know, the guys that he lost to like stay technical, like Artem Vacatav, I think was his name. Or Paquita or something like that. You know, Ardom stayed offensive on him and just kept peppering, right? he didn't go for the big knockout he didn't go for um you know anything wild he wasn't doing you know a bunch of spinning stuff and dropping his hands and trying to play games with Alex like he just stayed technical um i think a great example that was when jason willness beat Alex prayer

like he stayed very technical stayed sharp combos um the other artum um not remembering his name now um but he beat uh Alex also and you just stay in technical man and i think that's the best route to beat Alex. Because again, Alex will leave those openings. Like he does absolutely leave himself open, but he believes in his power. And he has a certain way of doing things that you don't teach others to do that he's able to do. Yeah, absolutely.

Also, this card, of course, we got Raquel Pennington taken on Giuliana Pena and the co-maintening event. Of course, Kayla Harrison taken on Ketla Vieira in the other fight featured on this card with the women's Bantamway Division. There's a question I want to ask you, Matt, because I'm curious your opinion on this. Because we've kind of gone through a couple of errors in the women's Bantamway Division. We had the Rhonda Rousie era, which of course is what launched it all. And Rhonda was one of the two biggest stars in our sport.

She left. And then Amanda Nunes ascended. And she was the women's goat. I think everyone would agree that we don't get a whole lot of universal agreement in this sport. I think everyone should agree that Amanda Nunes is the women's goat. And then she retired. And now we are basically a year and a half past that. Raquel Pennington became the new champion in January.

Giuliana Pena hasn't fought in two years, over two years, and now, you know, Kayla Harrison's kind of the name. I'm curious, here's my question, Matt. Does, does, because a lot of the conversations this week's going to be about is Amanda going to come back? Because Amanda's kind of teased it. She's kind of talked about coming back from retirement. Does this division necessarily need Amanda Nunes to come back? Or are we all kind of putting our chips on the Kayla Harrison thing where we're like, if Kayla goes out and Rex Ketland Vieira and she becomes champion, then we kind of

to go in that third phase. We went from Rhonda to Amanda and then to Kayla. Does this division still need Amanda Nunes? No, we're on the way to the Kayla Harrison era. And I think she wrecks everybody in that division, including Amanda, if she comes back. Like, I don't think anybody stands a chance against Kayla. I think she is a major problem for everybody in there. And she, especially, like, I wasn't quite as big of a believer until the way I watched her beat Holly home.

because I just didn't know about the weight cut and, you know, how she was going to perform under the weight cut. And sometimes people change when they come to the UFC, right? They're just not what we thought they were when they were in different organization. I think she answered every question very clearly. And she's going to come in. And I don't think anybody has a chance against her. I've been on the Kayla Harrison train for a very, very long time.

I think Kayla's biggest obstacle was making 135. Yeah, that's it. You're right. I don't, because we talked about that before. Like, you know, you know, you said very openly, like that extra pound, all this kind of things, like how that could hurt you. We were, and I, you know me, I like, I love Holly Holm. I think Holly Holm is a legend. I adore Holly Holm.

You do that to Holly Holm. No one's ever done that to Hollyholm. No one has ever done that to Holly home. Kayla's biggest obstacle is going to be keeping her weight at 135. And I mean, no disrespect to Ketland Vieira. I just had an incredible interview, by the way, last week with Raquel Pennington. I haven't really talked to her much during her career, and I finally had a chance we sat down for like 35 minutes.

Awesome interview. Incredibly nice. Really, really thoughtful interview. She's awesome. And I'm looking forward to her fight with Giuliana this weekend. But I'm with you, man. Like this is, I think we are just, I think it's almost like the,

we're just waiting for the crown to land on Kayla's head. Like she is a monster. And Kayla with elbows, which she didn't have in PFL. Kail with elbows is a fucking terrifying thing. She's, she's, she is exactly what this division needed.

She needs, like she has everything. Not only is she great in the cage, but she's great on the mic. She's an incredible interview. She's everything that, like, she's actually in a way, like better. Because Amanda was never a big talker. You know, Amanda was never, she was winning there and wreck people, but Amanda was never a big talker. Kayla kind of brings back the Ronda stuff, except people are going to flip out when I say this. She's a much better fighter than Ronda Rousey was.

Yeah. Yeah, I think we all know that. And is good of a talker. She is, like, she's a true competitor and is respectful in the way she talks. Like, she's a bit more just aware of herself and the way she's speaking and a little more self-aware. And, you know, no hate to Rhonda, maybe a little bit. But, you know, I'll do respect to Ronda Rousey. You know, she just said some off the wall and saying things.

Like, I don't see Kayla Harrison going out there, be like, yeah, I'll beat King Velasquez on the right day. or some shit. You know, she knows who she is. She knows what it is. And she is an absolute terror for this division. I feel bad for the girls in that division. And if I'm the champion, I'm retiring. You know, but if I'm Raquel Payton or Julana Penn and win the fight, like, I'm out.

I'm pulling an Eddie Bravo here win the big one and I'm done. Yeah, it's, and I think to the Ronda comment, like just being honest, not talking about the crazy stuff. but like where I say like I think Kayla is a better fighter. It's just like the Olympics. Like Ronda was a great judoka. She won a bronze medal. Kayla won two golds. That's all I'm saying.

Like it's just, you know, and that's, by the way, it's just the evolution of sport too. Like I said, I know we said this before, but like, you know how much,

I have a ton of respect and admiration for Hoysh Gracie. We saw when Hoysh, I know he was older, but when Hoyce Gracie fought the newer era of fire with Matt Hughes, Matt Hughes just took him down and beat the hell out of him. That's just the evolution. Even from Ronda's last fight in 2016,

the sport has evolved so much beyond that and that's even going back not to rehash the whole Connor thing like when you're out of the sport you would you'd be fascinated to find out how quickly people evolve and get better and I think Kayla is just a different animal right now and again I think her biggest her biggest problem was going to be how can she get to 135 and do it effectively she seems to have gotten that down when I talked to her a few weeks ago

she's like everything is mapped out to the last micronutrient of what I'm eating what I'm working out, what I'm doing everything to make sure I keep my weight on point. I think that to me was going to be the biggest deterrent. If she couldn't do it properly or she looked drained down or she looked, you know, depleted. That didn't happen. Everybody else looked the fuck out because Kayla Harrison's coming. Yeah, and the only question from here on not is like, how long can she keep doing that weight cut?

Like I don't think it's natural for her body. I think she is going to be depleting herself. I think it is going to take a toll on her. So how long is she going to be able to maintain that? And if she's able to maintain it for 10 years, I think she's champion for 10 years. I mean, she's a supreme athlete. And that's to me is the biggest difference.

When we talk about the evolution of the sport, it's just been the athleticism has increased 10-fold, over the last 10, 15 years or whatever. You know, like guys like Hoyce Gracie, for instance. I mean, he wasn't an athlete, right? He was a jiu-jitsu guy. And then he faced, you know, a decent athlete in Matt Hughes. and then Matt Hughes faced a real athlete in GSP, right?

And it's just athleticism, and athleticism carries over into picking up all the different aspects of the sport. Where it's striking and wrestling and jihitsu, and every wrestler knows that. Like, if you're not a crazy athlete, like you're not going to be great at wrestling. That's all there is to it. Yeah, absolutely. And then Kayla, like I said, Kayla was, you know, and I think the thing gets missed while it is a tough weight cup for her to get to 135. Kayla, you know, when Kayla was in the Olympics, she, she did judo to much higher weight class because she didn't want to cut weight. She fought at 155 because that's what PFL had and she didn't really have to cut weight because she was fighting four times a year in that tournament.

Yeah. She fought at 145. Yeah, it wasn't a great cut, but she got there. I think that's what gets missed. Like, she's disciplined and doing it. And guess what? Everyone has to do that. You know what I mean?

Like, if you, if you were like when I ran into John Jones for the first time, years and years and years ago, And I met him and shook hands with him. And I was next to his brothers who were both NFL players. And he dwarfed both of them. And I'm like, in my head, I'm like, how in the fuck do you make 205 pounds? Like, he looked massive. That's what weight cutting. I'm not saying it's good, but I'm saying like, that's what people have gotten it down.

So like, when you look at Kayla, and Kayla always joked me, she's like, I'd have to cut off a body part to make $1.35. No, she just had to change her diet and her discipline and her nutrition and her workouts. And now she's done it. that may be the bigger that may be the bigger obstacle than whoever she's fighting is because she do it healthily and as you said if she can do it healthy for the next 10 years she might be champion for the next 10 years I just I'm a big Kayla Harrison believer and I don't know that uh I don't know anyone's going to be rushing like man give me that fight I can't wait for that one right right right yes again I think if uh if she can keep that weight down and that's the biggest problem is because

like she is a big girl like big bone you know and muscular. So it's going to be, I think that weight is eventually going to catch up to her. Just a prediction. Who knows? Maybe she, you know,

stays disciplined for the next 10 years on it. But it's hard to believe that as she ages. Like, how old is she now? She's in her 30s. Yeah, she's in her 30s. Yeah,

so as she ages, you know, for me, like, for instance, it didn't actually get harder. I actually got better at cutting weight. And as I got older,

it didn't get any harder. I stayed disciplined. For most people, it does become harder. And I think that that's more of a case of that as you get older, you stop training quite as much as you used to. You stop doing, like when I was younger, for instance, I trained 365 days a year for the most part.

And then I think most people do that when they're younger. And then as they get older, they start training, you know, just for the fight or, you know, kind of moderately during off-season and then get ready for a fight. But I think if she keeps it up year-round, I think she'll be perfectly fine. Yeah, it's going to be good. It's going to be interesting.

Like I said, I think this weekend's going to be a real interesting sign to see where that division goes because Kayla, you know, Kayla's fighting earlier in the card and then you got the title fight. And I think that's going to be set up for the winner to get Kayla. I know this sounds terrible. We're just going to look past Ketland Vieira. I just don't like anyone's chances against Kayla. And I think that's what we're headed towards. And listen, this is what this division needs.

I know we've had this conversation before, Matt. You know, divisions rise and fall based on who is representing them as champion. You know, when Demetrius left, we're all. kind of like, man, what's going to happen to flyweight? And then, you know, Devincinge and Brandon Moreno end up having this incredible rivalry. And, you know, you move on. But you just don't know how it's going to pick up. Like when Georgia C. and Pierre's Chabry, you're like, oh, man, how's Welterway going to do when George has gone?

Well, George left. And then we saw the emergence of, you know, Robbie Lawler and then eventually Tyron Woodley. And then, you know, down the line. And now, you know, where we're at with, you know, going from Kamar Usman to Leon Edwards. That's just how the sport works? Like, you know, just like John Jones. Like, how's John Jones is gone? How's it going to?

Well, now we got Alex Prayer. That's just how the sport is You know, you just don't know Was there a falloff from Rhonda to Amanda In terms of popularity and things of this? Sure, and then when Amanda left, same kind of thing. Now we're kind of getting to that next dare And I think Kayla's going to be that next dare.

That's just how the sport works. And I have a ton of admiration and respect for Raquel Pennington and everything she's done. And I think it's awesome to see her finally achieve her dream to become champion. I just don't know that I love anyone's chances against You were talking earlier about the Supreme Athletes. It's like, man, I think this basketball player's great.

He's not LeBron. He's not Michael Jordan. You know, it's kind of like that. You know, it's like, I think they all great. They're not Kayla Harrison. That's the problem, right? She's just such an athletic girl. And it's very rare to see a girl as athletic as her.

So I don't see anybody giving her a real hard time. It is MMA, right? People find ways to do things. Spectacular things happen all the time. but like that's the only chance I give against someone against Kayla is the fact that it's MMA. Like that's your real chance is that it is in Maine. Crazy things happen.

Yeah. There's your chance. You know, real quick before we get out of here, Matt, yesterday you were doing a little Q&A on Twitter and somewhere along the line someone asked you about doing a karate combat fight with Carlos Condit. You know, people I had hit me up yesterday asking about that? Like, is he going to do karate combat against Carlos Conno? It was like, it was a comment on Twitter.

Calm down. Well, it'd be awesome. I would love to do it. You know, when I fought Carlos the first time, I had some injuries going in and I ended up wrestling a lot more than I wanted to. And I kind of turned into my game playing. So I would love to do it. I think it'd be a lot of fun, man.

You go in there and just bang it out with him. Yeah, Carlos, I haven't talked to Carlos in prayer. I don't know what he's really up to. Yeah, I don't think he's, he doesn't seem at least, I mean, I haven't talked to him either or anything, but there's no signs of him wanting to communicate. compete either, right? Like he's not putting anything out there. Yeah, he just kind of faded away, which is fine. There's been another wrong with that. He's got a family, he's got kids. He just got to do it his thing.

But yeah, he got to like Carlos. I was like Carlos. Carlos was a really good dude. But like when he retired, he literally retired. Like he just disappeared. Yeah, yeah, much respect. Like, he's such a great guy and awesome competitor. He was one of the guys I was watching coming up. Like I remember him beating Brock Larson in the WEC. And I was a fan from that day on. So it was cool to get to share the cage with them, even though I still think I won that fight, motherfucker. But, you know, it is what it is.

One of my proudest achievements was picking Carlos Condo to beat Charito Verissimo back in the day in that Rumble in the Rock tournament back in, like, 2006 when he was like 19 or 20 years old. And he fought in that tournament with Jake Shields and all those guys. And I was like, I think he's going to be him. He knocks out Sharuto in like 18 seconds with that knee. And I was like, I told you. I was like, I picked Carlos Kondo to win that one. Yeah, he was a savage, man.

Like, great competitor. Almost beat GSP, probably the, would have been one of the biggest upsets in history, right? One of the greatest comebacks in history. I remember that fight. I was at that fight, and I predicted Carlos, I'm not going to lie, I was a Carlos guy. I've been a Carlos guy for many years.

And I predicted him to win by third round knockout. I was like, I think you're going to catch him in the third round. That's when he caught him with that head kick and nearly got him. He went to the post-fight presser, and I sat, I was sitting in the front row, and Carlos looked him, and he's, like almost got him almost got him as you said third round i was like he's like almost did it and i was like yeah man that was freaking awesome because he he almost had him man when he called me that head kicking

the third round it was almost over but credit to gsp one of the one of the one of the goats right there so yeah another one of the most athletic guys in history yeah he's really like the the uh i don't know prototypical guy where you say like like athleticism is what takes you so far right like he he didn't come up wrestling he didn't come up um you know doing jihit-to and stuff and stuff. But his athleticism, he picked up wrestling and became one of the best wrestlers ever. He picked up jih Tzu, became one of the best grapplers ever, picked up. I mean, he's strike. I think he was striking since he was young, doing karate and stuff. But, you know, started many more time.

It's athleticism, man. I'm going to argue that for a long time. Like, athleticism is the best base for M.A. Yeah, you're probably right. You're absolutely right. Yeah, George St. Xavier was a freak athlete, man. That guy was a freak athlete. Like, I think he started doing gymnast stuff for fun. Like, he's like, I'm going to do gym this shit for fun. Like, who does that for fun?

I know, right? All right, folks, that is our episode for this week. As we, I don't think we mentioned it on the show, Matt, you'll be off next week to do a little traveling down to Mexico for a little retreat down there. So we will be back next week with a new episode, and then obviously you'll be back to follow a week after that. Matt, if people want to support you, they want to check you out, they want to watch some more dick kicking championships. Where can they find you? at I. Immortals on Instagram and on Twitter

The Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. There you go. Folks, as always, make sure you tune into the podcast each and every week on your favorite podcast, platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and of course, over on the best website in the world, mMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin.

We will see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Writer. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then. Fox Media Podcast Network. Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. almost at the finish line. But first, there, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes. Hi, I'm Sophia Loper Caro, host of the Before the Chorus podcast. We dive into the life

experiences behind the music we love. Artists of all genres are welcome, and I've been joined by some pretty amazing folks, like glass animals. I guess that was the idea was to try something personal and see what happened. And Japanese breakfast. I thought that the most surprising thing I could offer was an album about joy. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, and remember, so much happens before the chorus.