MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Alex Pereira Losing to Magomed Ankalaev at UFC 313, Reflects on ‘Favorite Fight’ Against Robbie Lawler

Episode Date: March 11, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to the action from UFC 313 including Magomed Ankalaev defeating Alex Pereira to become light heavyweight champion and Justin Gaethje getting back on track with a statement win over Rafael Fiziev. Brown addresses where Pereira went wrong and the danger he faces in his next fight if he gets an immediate rematch against Ankalaev. Plus Brown reflects back on his all-time favorite fight against Robbie Lawler after hearing that he’s being inducted into the UFC Hall of Fame Class of 2025 and more. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And I want to go ahead and just open this podcast by reveling in my victory that I picked both the main and co-main event correctly. For UFC 313, we are living in a world now where Magamad Anka-Live is the new light heavyweight champion. And Justin Gage won his co-made event. So I'm just going to bask in the glory of my wins right now, Matt. Yeah. Hey, that was a good call, too. You know, that's not an easy.

It was a tough time to be picking against Alex Pereira. And you went out on the limb and did it. So we got to give you the props credit where credits do, man. You're the, for this week, you're the master. Hey, you texted me the night of the fight. And I was like, I was like, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and again. So. Right.

Dude, I was actually so close to texting you right before the fight and say, then I'm going to change my pick. And then I can't do that. I can't be a bitch. Like, I got to stand by. Because I tell you what, I don't know if you felt it, but like I felt something in the air, right? And sometimes, like, we just have these gut feelings about a fight.

And I was like, man, like, like Anka Live just looks like he's out there to win a title tonight. And Alex looked the same as usual. So it wasn't like he gave any signs of weakness or anything. But I said, man, Enkolive is a, he's on his, he's on firing on all eight cylinders tonight and he did. It's funny because I know we talked last week about like the distraction was Alex traveling too much. Honestly

to me, like not one's fight we got there. I don't think any of that really mattered. I did what ultimately did it and maybe you'll agree or disagree because I know there's been a lot of comments about like, you know, Alex didn't look himself and I would say you're probably not wrong. But I think he was so

focused on Ancolae of potentially taking him down and he did stop to take down. But we've talked about this before when you fight a wrestler, and if you're so concerned about the takedowns, you forget to be yourself. And I think that's what happened to Alex. And also to Anka Liam's credit,

he followed the perfect strategy. He walked him down. He never allowed Alex to get comfortable and to really set up his strikes. And he just didn't look himself in there. You know, and it looked like maybe there was a piece of that. We talk about this all the time after fights. We have to give credit where credits do.

You have to give the credit to Anka-Live. he fought a flawless fight almost. I wouldn't say flawless, but a very disciplined, very good fight from beginning to end. I don't think Alex had a lot of options. He didn't have, there's not a lot more within his skill set

that he could have done to pull that off. You know, obviously he'll adjust. I think there'll probably be a rematch. I think he'll adjust. And maybe, you know, he'll find some of those holes. and maybe he'll be able to capitalize on him. But he's going to have to change something stylistically.

He can't back up the way he backed up. He's got to counter better. He's got to, you know, pressure more, right? You know, stick with the calf kicks more. You something. You know, I don't know exactly what the answer is. But the way it looked the other night, I don't take anything away from Alex Breyer.

I give all the credit to Hank Eli if he fought perfect. You know, you talked about this last week, and you were very respectful about it. But you said, if we got to be honest about it, it, Alex Pereira has had some favorable matchups. When you look at Yuri Pajaska, you look at Jamal Hill and you look at Kalil Roundtree, guys who are all willing to stand and just trade and kind of stand in front of him and just trade. And you astutely said, Ankylaev's not that guy.

He's a smart fighter. He's a good striker, but he's a very well-rounded fighter. He's not going to just play that same game. I hate to use, people are going to say, man, you're going overboard here. I don't mean, I'm just saying like this is the only word I can use. did Pereira get exposed a little bit in that fight because he finally fought a guy almost like the Blajovich fight when he first went to light heavyweight

and Blahovitch took him down and really and it's almost like Yon ran out of gas I'm not going to take anything away from Alex he had a great second and third round to won that fight but after that first round it looked like Yon was spent still didn't finish him still didn't go out there and put Yon Blahovitch away but this is the first time since that fight

where a guy went out there and actually it seemed like they had a strategy to work towards Alex's weaknesses versus let's just go and trade, which is what Khalil, what Jamal, and what Yuri Prahashka have done. Yeah, I don't think exposed is the right word, but I think it humanized him, right?

Because he was living off all this hype. The UFC is masters of hyping guys up. Like, I think all of us, and it's hard for anybody, even, you know, astute followers of the game like me or you or, you know, fighters that understand all the intricacies of this. It's hard for us to,

ignore the amount of hype that people put into it, right? And they do this all the time, right? They did with Connor. They did with Rhonda. They're doing it with Alex. It's a constant thing. John Jones is the only guy that's kind of lived up to that. And I say kind of because, I mean, he lost to Reyes.

Right? He had some close fights. But he's kind of the only guy who's really, you know, just lived up to that hype and not lost. this sport, this is what happens. Like you become humanized if you keep fighting. Exposed, I wouldn't necessarily say Alex was exposed because Angloff didn't get the takedown. Yeah.

Right? And, you know, had he taken him down and maybe beat the shout out of the ground, like, yeah, okay, he got exposed. We know very clearly what is now. But he defended his takedowns, defending them very well, even did a lot of damage, you know, while being pushed against the cage. So I just think exposed is a wrong word. But I do think, you know, suddenly this hype train of Pereira has come to a maybe not a halt, but right, it's slowed down a lot more. Okay, he's still a great fighter. He's still everything that we thought he was.

But the UFC kind of overplayed their cards, right? And we know, or at least we theorize, UFC didn't want Achille have been there, right? because they knew this was a high potential possibility of happening. It feels a little bit, I mean, he didn't have a title rating like Pereira, but it's a little bit like Sean O'Malley. Like they had the Sean O'Malley effect where he was like, he was a superstar best fight striker day. Went out there beats the hell out of Cheeto Vera,

which is, again, very favorable matchup, a guy that he should have beaten, and he did. And it just seemed like they didn't want to put him anywhere near Marab. But they kind of ran out of options. Like, well, Marab's on like a 12-fight win streak or whatever it was. Like, we got to give him the fight. And Marab went out there to beat him. You know, a little bit of the Bilal Muhammad. Same kind of thing.

Like, there's... Don't forget to give props to Sean for that for not only accepting that fight, but saying, look, this is what the fans won. I'm going to go do this fight. Yeah, 100%. But, you know, the reality is like, you know, it's just like, oh, yeah, okay, like Marab is probably a stylistically a bad matchup for Sean Amali.

And that's kind of what played out. And everyone, you and I agreed last year, I like Khalil Roundtriot. So I'm not knocking the guy, but he didn't deserve that. He got it because. They needed a main event. They knew that would be a fun, exciting fight. It did play.

It was a great fight. It was a fun fight. Anka Lyev deserved it, though. Ankelyev should have been in there. And so, like, they kind of delayed it. Now we got it. And listen, I'm not going to sit here in Lydi and say it was the most exciting fight in the world. I scored Anka Lyev winning the fight.

I know you did the night of the fight. Have you seen some of the, like, some people are freaking out saying it was a bad decision. Like, it's not a bad decision. Like, I admit there's a couple of close rounds in there, but don't, there's no robbery here. Yeah. I was bluff. away. Like I kind of tweeted out a little bit just thinking I'm saying what everybody's preaching to the choir here. You know, like I'm not going to get any response out of this. Like no one cares. Everybody

knows what happened. And then yeah, I got so much hate, like particularly for scoring the fifth round for Angolaev, which, okay, I get that argument. But can I say to all you tweeters out there or X or whatever you want to call it. Saying that I have CTE because you think you disagree with me, like does not help your point at all. Okay. You fucking morons. It's just such a low-grade insult.

And it doesn't help your case at all. So I'll just say that. But yeah, I was very shocked at that people were scoring it for Alex. But after, after I thought about it was like okay I can see where you would score for Alex calling it a robbery is ridiculous because you know just the feel of the fight was ankyl of a thousand percent but round by round okay I can see where you could give them

one three and five like I can understand an argument you call it a robbery I mean who's got the CTE here my other fuckers yeah it's funny I had that I care what what fight it was come I was talking about the I poke with Henry Sehudo and some guy on Twitter's like you must have money on Sehudo's like well A I don't bet on fights but be just because I think that he should have got deducted a point doesn't mean I had money on Henry Suhudo. Like that's the dumbest argument ever because I think that the guy should have a point deducted and it would have made the fight a draw.

Does that mean I had money on Henderson Hado? Same kind of thing here. Yeah. Listen, to me it came down to round three and I've explained myself a couple of times on Twitter. I said there was a straight punch late in the third round where Ankleye hit him and Alex stumbled a little bit. And to me that was the most damage in that round.

It was a very close round. and that one straight, I think it was a straight right, and he kind of stumbled, I was like, that's the difference to me. You know what I mean? Just like, you know, like I said, when you're in a very close round, is those few moments to make a difference.

And that was the difference for me. So I scored a round three for Anka-Lyav, and that ultimately was a fight for me, for me personally. And I understand that. And ultimately for me, I think the majority of the rounds, round five is the only one, you know, and look, I might go back and watch it someday and be like, okay, it was for Alex, right?

Like, you know, it was a very, very close fight. but ultimately the majority of the fight, like Ankleyev was pressing Alex, right? When it's that close, like you got to give it to the aggressor, the guy that's trying to make something happen. You know, like there was a lot of arguments on, you know, one of the, where all of the stupid people show up on X, right? Like, this is the platform of stupidity. Not that there's a better one.

Right. But, you know, you know, all these people are saying, you know, Alex should get scored for take down defense. And like what kind of argument is this? Like if I throw, if I'm trying my best to knock you out and I throw a hundred punches and don't land, like, do you get points for that? I know the one argument you would have is like Sweet Pee apparently and people don't actually know the full story, but he won around without throwing a punch.

Not sweet P. Who was that? I forget who, but one of the great defensive boxers, right? But if you look at the actual story was what happened back then they didn't have actual judges and scorecards. They had newspaper scorecards. It's called newspaper rounds, right? And the newspaper scored it for them, which was completely different than judges. These are journalists that are, you know, scoring a fight just so the, you know, people have something to talk about, right?

But anyway, that's ridiculous to think. think that. The guy that's defending something should get points for that. I actually had to explain that to someone on X during the fights. They said, I think maybe it was the third round or maybe it was the fourth round. And they were like, oh, Alex definitely won that because he defended the takedowns. And I responded. I said, defense doesn't count for anything in scoring. Defense counts for nothing. Just so everyone knows, if you go look at the scoring criteria, everything you score in MMA is offense-based. You get no points for stopping a takedown. You get No points for defending a submission.

The points go to the guy who tried for the submission or the guy who tried to knock you out. You get no credit. And, you know, I know that might seem weird in a sport that's so physical because you are engaging with a guy. Like you're not just ducking a punch. You're literally stopping it from taking you down. But ultimately you're doing is a defensive maneuver. Offense is all that scored MMA. And I agree with you.

I think that Ankelai have won. And listen, there were journalists who I trust who scored her for prayer and said it was very close in the I don't fault them. There's a couple close rounds in there. But I do think when you get on the Twitter and you get on to fans and I'm not knocking anybody, but you do get the emotional element in there. You're rooting for Alex. You like Alex.

It's hard not to have that. I've said this right. I'll say this right now very publicly. When you fought throughout your career, I never scored rounds because I know. Like my investment's different. You know what I mean? Like you're one of my closest friends. I can't score your, I just know.

So I don't do it. I just don't do it. I just don't go in there because I know there's emotional element there. And the reality is, you, everyone, in grade or not, we have our biases. Like, we don't mean to maybe, but we have our biases. Can you think of any sport on this planet that scores for defense? No, none. Unless you, unless you're, unless you're literally catching an interception

and running back for a touchdown, which then becomes an offensive maneuver. Yeah, once you catch it, now you're offense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I can't think of a single sport that would give any points for defense, you know, I mean, particularly combat sports. And like in wrestling, the guy that's defending, he's more likely to get called for stalling than he is to get a point, right? There's counters, which is what the idea of good defense is, is countering.

And you doubts his credit. I mean, he did counter finally at the end of one round, right, and actually swept ankle-eye, which was beautiful. I was like, damn, I wish he would have done that before. This could have been a real interesting match. But, you know, with one second left in the round, you know, it doesn't mean anything. But there's literally not a single sport that scores for defense. It doesn't make any sense. And that's just guys that love Alex.

They're like, bro, you know, he defended his shots. So he's getting better. So we've got to give it to him. Yeah, it's like people get mad about the clinch. I understand the clinch against the cage is not the most exciting position. But guess what? Alex can fight his way out of there. There are ways to get away from the clinch.

There are ways to break away from the clinch. We've seen guys do it a thousand times. You know, it's just like a takedown. Just because you're on the bottom and you can't get up, that's not his fault. That's your fault. There's plenty of guys who get taken down and scramble. We see the million times guys who scramble off the bottom and get out of there.

We saw it on Saturday night. Joshua Venn got taken down. I think what was that his fight. He had taken down with like one second, scrambled right back up to his feet. It can be done. So I'm curious, Matt, we do tend to overreact when a guy has as much hype and attention as a guy like Alex prayer was. And again, rightly so. He's a monster and an incredible fighter.

And he didn't get destroyed. He lost a close decision. He didn't get destroyed. But again, it looked like a weird Alex fight. He didn't go after him. He wasn't striking a lot. He was tentative. He was, you know, just didn't look like himself.

And again, I'm not saying it's it. I'm saying that's because Angola, I fought him. the right way. Are we at danger, though, because they say, like, immediate rematch, and I'm fine with that, by the way, because there's not really a clear-cut number one contender in the division right now, like, to be honest, like, there's not a guy who's on, like, a win streak who's getting passed over for an immediate rematch. Is this kind of, like, we talk about do or die going into the thing for Justin Gasey,

we'll get to him in a second. Could this be like a do-or-die-die-or-die-dye-for-allis? Because Alex went from, I win, I maybe fight John Jones or Tom Aspinol and go for a three-division champion and now he's going into a potential rematch at 38 years old he turns 38 later this year at 38 years old against magamann and goliov and a loss two losses in a row that kind of knocks him out i mean i guess maybe he could try to go back to middleweight and fight drakis but i don't know anyone who really wants to see that like it's a big moment for alice because his age he's not a young guy who could just keep going there's definitely a big big moment for him it will be for sure

I hate to call anything do or die. I just feel like it's a real extreme way to look at it because how many guys have we thought were do or die and then it happens and then it's not actually do or die, right? There's always pads back. Well, not always, but for the most part, it was a pass back, right? And this is the age of short attention spans, right?

Everybody's going to forget about it. And, you know, the next fight will sell very big, right? Everybody's going to forget that that was a crazy, boring fight. I didn't find it quite as boring as everyone else. Like, I was really interested in the tactics and the strategies that they were using. And, you know, I was surprised, actually, how little wrestling and Kalaya went for, how much he stood with them. I thought he would push for it a lot harder.

And, you know, I don't think he even shot his first shot until the end. of the first round, if I'm not mistaken, maybe the second round. So I find interesting, but yeah, people are going to forget. So I don't think it's a do or die, but in terms of his star power, it may be a do or die for him to be as big of a star as he is because, you know, if he goes out there and loses again to Ankaliv on a rematch, he's not the star. well, it's not even do or die, but his star power goes so exponentially higher.

If he goes out and works at work St. Goliath, if he goes out there and puts a beating on him, his star power goes through the fucking roof again, right? Like he's back at the top top. And if he loses, again, it's not like a die, but it's like, okay, you know, you're not going to fight John Jones or Aspenall, probably. You know, maybe, you know, maybe you retire.

Who knows where is my mind? is um but you know if you want another title style you got to work your way back up buddy and Alex Alex got there a lot by performances and kind of like this this aura around him he didn't get there like the Connor way where there's a lot of trash talk and you kind of talk your way back into it right like he's not that guy uh even like an omali like o'malley like omali can kind of talk him talk his way back into it you kind of forget like two days later he's like doing things like i really beat barab and like that's just not who Alex is Alex is Alex is is based upon performance. Alex needs to go out there in wreck dudes, which is what he had been doing.

And when that, when that armor gets chipped a little bit, you know what I mean? If it happens twice, you know, like I said, that aura goes away a little bit. So that, that, that, that, the aura of invincibility that he had about him kind of goes away. And I'm not, I'm certainly not saying the guy has to retire anything like that necessarily. But the star power, you're absolutely right, the star power diminishes greatly because he's not a Connor. He's not that kind of guy is going go out there and say crazy things to get attention you didn't speak english so it's like he's not going to get he can't get attention that way it's based on performance and this this hype and aura around him he that if that gets knocked off a second time in a row it doesn't all go away

but it it gets knocked down pretty dramatically yeah you know we could have said that when he got knocked out by israel too right and he came right back but you know the interesting thing is you know the the most legendary guys have great rivals right and first his great rival was Israel and and that kind of, that book kind of ended. Like, can Ankylaev be his next big rival? You know, Ankylaev doesn't have the, they're not most likely not going to put on the wars that we would want from a big rivalry.

Ankelyev doesn't talk the kind of shit to make a big rivalry. But you got to wonder if this could be spun into that, you know, building a new rival. And in that case, you know, if they're able to do that, and then he goes out and wins the second fight, and then obviously we could go to a third fight, and now you get this new rival. If the UFC could spin that,

I mean, that could be really, really big for Alex, right? Because now he's actually the first guy in combat sports history I could think of that could have, you know, two major rivals, you know, to build the star power. And I think we all kind of agree a rematch is warranted and probably should have, but I know Ankelaio is pushing for October and Abu Dhabi. I think that's perfect. He kind of gets a little bit of the hometown. Not hometown, but obviously he's going to be a bigger star over there than maybe even Alex.

Like he had the crowd totally against him this time. In Abu Dhab, it's going to be reversed. The crowd's going to be four at Enkalev. You know, it's kind of like Rocky going into Russia to fight, you know, Drago and Rocky Four or whatever. I think that's perfect. You do it in October. That's six months from now, seven months from now. You give Alex time to recover, you know, get your work on his game planning,

work on whatever he needs to work on. If there was a distraction, again, I'm not saying that. played a part but if it did i bet you anything he's going to fucking batten down the hatches and not do any more traveling to australia over the next few months uh rematching on julya and that's the that's the best that's the best fight you can book right now yeah yeah and it's also it it it makes perfect sense because it bodes well for an coliath too right he's not going to be an easy guy to build star power for right he's not a shit talker he's not a flamboyant guy he's he's not outrageous on anything

and he doesn't even put on amazing fights. He just goes out and wins. And so, you know, if they put him in with some of the, you know, number two or three guys or whatever, I don't think it does a ton for him. But, again, try to build that rivalry with Alex, you know, two stoic guys that are just ultimate warriors and going in and not talk of shit and they just put on great performances and go to battle, I think that's the best thing the UFC can do.

100%. Justin Gachie, what a performance. I know you've been a big Raphael Fiziv guy for a long time and rightfully so. He's a monster. And again, listen, he was stepping into a tough situation on short notice, but you and I talked about this before. Doesn't matter. Short notice, broken foot, broken head, whatever. We don't read about that when the fight's over and the name goes on the resume.

And to his credit, Fizim put on a good fight, but man, how awesome. I'm not, certainly not rooting for anybody here. But, you know, there was a lot of questions for Gaci. You know, he had that knockout. Everyone's like, man, he's 36. He's getting older. He just got his chin cracked. He got brutally violently knocked out by Max Holloway.

Maybe he can't take punches anymore. Maybe this is the end of the road. And we talked about it. Like this was, I know you said you don't like do or die, but that was kind of like a, you know, big one way or there, a win, and he's back in title contention of loss. And we could have been talking about Gaichi. Like, maybe he just hangs it up.

Boy, he went out there and put on a vintage Gaichi performance. Yeah, it looked great, man. And it's one of those where we talk about this all the time. We like to give credit to the winner, right? He did the work. He put it in. I felt like Faisiv coming in a short notice. This is why we pick Gage also or why I picked Gage.

I was surprised if Fizizu was an underdog coming out of a short notice. And after he lost two him the first time, I was like, dude, that's the money pick right there. But then, you know, I thought, again, I think I think I think. felt this way in the first fight too. Like Faisiv is better, but Gajie is just such a fucking warrior, man. And like, you have to beat Gagy. You know, like you really just have to beat him.

And I thought Fiziv had the tools to do it, but just couldn't get it done. And, you know, so again, like you said, props to Gagy, man. Like, you got to give it to him. The guy just, he just gets it done, man. He had that uppercut that knocked him down. I think that's a little.

because I don't think he knocked him down at all in the first fight. I don't think there was a knockdown in the first fight. He knocked him down with that uppercut. I was like, damn. And you kind of see as if I got deeper in the second and third round, the timing kind of caught up to physique because he kind of slowed down. He wasn't as fast or twitchy. And you're like, yeah, you can kind of see.

He probably did take this fun on 10 days notice because that's just the reality of that situation. But man, Gaci looked incredible. And like I said, McGeachie is a good, nice guy, incredible fighter, another bonus. And listen, you know, it's hard to see. say goodbye to Legends and listen, you know, we're going to say goodbye to Justin Porre later this year when he retires. He's got one more fight and he says he's going to be done. You know, eventually guys like Jim Miller are going to walk away. You walked away last year. Eventually we have to say goodbye to our legends, but it's almost like we want to kind of hang

on for a little while longer and Gaichi is around. I don't know if you heard this, by the way, Matt, after the fight, somebody asked him, they said, what do you think about you and Porriere going for a third time and doing it for his retirement fight? And he said, I don't think either of our families deserve that. That might be one of my favorite quotes from a fighter ever. And he's like, I'm fine with it being one one. We don't need to put each other through that again. I was like, that's actually really cool. I actually appreciate that quote. That was, he was, the honesty rang true. It's factual, right? But who does he fight next is the question, right? And, you know, I know they mentioned Islam, you know, getting back to the town of shot or whatever. And I think he had a

good response to that too. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it's basically I don't really deserve that, but if it happens, of course, I'll take it. So the question is, yeah, who does he fight next? You want to hear my suggestion? So what I said on Saturday night? I'llia Tuporia. I'llia to pour you. Now, I know we talked about this word, and I'd love the Charles Olivaa fight. You mentioned Charles, I would totally go for that as well. And I said Armin as well. Like you get, you know, I think I'llia needs a fight before he gets a title shot. But right now, unless you're going to hold Islam out, just give him Charles or Armand. Don't fuck around.

Let him fight Charles or Armand. Either one, I don't care which one you pick. Let one of them fight Islam right now. But I'llie and Gaichi, how is that? Because you got to remember, and I'm not certainly, what Max Holloway did at UFC 300 was incredibly impressive. You got to remember how much that fight changed after Max hit that spinning back kick and broke Gaichie's nose in the first round. He was never the same after that. Now, that's credit to a strike that Max Holloway landed.

but I'm saying like he was just never the same after that struck after that after his nose just absolutely got mashed. I think Gaji and Teporea could be really fun because Tepore is fast. He's a savage. He's a nasty guy. I saw some people saying, oh, that would end in five minutes. And I'm like, Ilya's a smaller guy for Lightway. And Gagchi hits like a fucking truck.

And Fizim's not the biggest guy. And he went out there and handled like, you're going to tell me that he can't handle it. He handled Fizim's speed. Fizzi's one of the fastest guy is in division. Like that would be a fun fight, and that would be a huge test really. It's a pori, in my opinion. Yeah, I think it's a good call. The only question is, does that get Gagy where he wants to go, right?

Because he wants to get back to the title shot. Does beating I do that? I think it would. I don't know. Does the UFC think it would? I mean, if you don't do that and you're not, and again, if you're not racing to get Islam back in there, but again, I think you do need to get Islam a fight. I think the other one is do almost like a four-man tournament,

except just basically pick the best winner. do Charles and Ilya and you do Armin and Gachi and then whoever looks the best of those two fights gets the title shot. The problem is, like I said, you go through, you know, anytime you fight Gachia, there's a good chance it's going to be like a car crash. Armand could win but come out with a broken cheekbone and, you know, he's not. So that's why I'm like, if you do Ilya and Gachi, you can basically say it's going to be Charles or Arm and one of them, whoever, gets Islam later this year.

I know that leaves an odd man out. I know someone's going to have to end up fighting somebody else. But again, you got Porre out there, you got Holloway out there, you got other guys who are available. So either mix and match or like I said, if you do Justin and Ilya, you know, that's a really fun fight. If Ilya beats a legend like Justin Gaci, who's not, I mean, who wouldn't watch that fight? Who wouldn't watch Ilya if I didn't watch I guess him, it'd be an incredible fight? And if he beats him, then he's got his, he's got his lightweight win. That's what he wanted, you know?

So I don't know. It's just a suggestion I had. Is it crazy to think of all these guys that we're talking about here? Most of them, we got Charles, K.E.G. Holloway. You know, all these guys, they're kind of towards a pourier. They're all really at the tail end of their careers here. And who's going to step up and replace all these guys?

I tell you what, I mean, we saw one guy on Saturday night, Maricio Rufi with that freaking spin kick to knockout King Green. That's one name you throw out there. I mean, obviously, you can think about Dan Hooker. I know he's a little bit more of a veteran. You know, Matush, Gammer. is still out there. He hasn't quite had that moment yet. He's had a couple tough losses in there. But there's some guys. There's some guys coming up.

You know, I mean, obviously, Patty Pimbley has a great chance to make a statement against Michael Chandler coming up in April. If he can pull off that upset, I don't know that he will. I'm saying he could. There's some names that. Dude, I know you saw have a Reese Roofie knockout. I mean, good Lord. Who wouldn't want to watch that guy fight? That was beautiful. Yeah, that was very impressive. You know, it sucks for Bobby Green, right? Like, I guess he needs to change his name back, I guess. Yeah, he might have got to, he might have got devoted to Prince after that one. He might be Prince Green now. Yeah. And you know, you know, it's crazy because everyone's

comparing it to the Terry Adam knockout with Edson Barbosa years ago, and that was a crazy one. But I think what made Maricio Rufi's more dramatic was Bobby Green going face first to the canvas. Like, the way a guy falls, like, when you crumbled Diego Sanchez, the knockout was incredible. But the way. way Diego fell made it better. I know it sounds terrible, but it's like the dramatic way, like the way that King Green got hit and went face first is like, oh, oh, Jesus Christ, like that makes it a more dramatic knockout. I was, I thought Bobby Green was, I thought he was going to be more of a contender than he

has been in this division. I really had a lot of high hopes for him when he came in the UFC, which I know he's kind of always been, you know, sort of about the position he's in now, right? where he's kind of, you know, win and lose, win and lose a little bit. But I thought he was really going to turn the corner in the UFC. You know, I thought he was going to be one of the next contenders. But as it played out that way, and, you know, so I haven't seen Rufi fight other than that. That was the first time I watched some fight. So I'm definitely excited to see what he brings to the table now because he, I mean, he looked tremendous.

It's a short fight, but he looked tremendous from beginning to end there. You had Bobby Green. Mine was always Michael Johnson. Like, Michael Johnson always felt like he was like, two fights away from being a champion. And to his credit, every single fight he's lost, he's been in the fight, and then he just gets, you know, he gets the Josh Schmidt fight where he gets tuned up and knocked out. But, like, you think about what he did to Destoporio.

When he knocked out Destoporio, I was like, here, Michael Johnson's going to go on his run. And he lost an Ate Diaz and it just never happened. But, like, that was my guy. I was like, Michael Johnson is going to be the guy. And he just could never quite. But, dude, he has so many cool knockouts and finishes, he just can't quite put together the run to actually get there. But he's always in the, like when he knocked out Porre, dude, that was a nasty knockout. I think that's a good call.

I think a lot of people thought what you were thinking there. His speed is ridiculous. He's definitely the fastest guy in the lightweight division, has all the skills to do it. It's just, that's this sport, man. It's got to be all eight cylinders, right? And he's one of those like seven cylinders guys, you know, just that he's just got one cylinder, not fire and just the way it needs to. I remember Justin Gagey got mad at me because I picked Michael Johnson to beat him in his debut And he's like dude He's like you picked against me I was like I just there's I was like no offense man

I just I've always been a big Michael Johnson and he did almost win that fight by the way Michael Johnson did get him pretty good in that fight But I remember that gauge you got mad at me because they picked Michael Johnson to win that fight and I was like it's nothing against you man I just I've always had kind of Michael Johnson always kind of thought he was going to be the guy and like that even that fight like that was a fight of the year and he came second away from beating Justin Gagey in his debut and then he ends up losing it is what it is. But that's kind of been Michael Johnson's career. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well,

I think he's still fighting, right? Like he's still fighting. Still going, yeah. Yeah, he's still going to just want, yeah, he's still doing lightweight. I think he just won a knockout in his last fight, a pretty good one, if I'm not mistaken. Definitely one of those guys that could just put it all together

and make a run for sure. I feel like he's not at the end of his rope yet, right? Like he's one of those guys with, you know, if the stars align, you know, and he comes in and his camps are good and he's got the right team around him. He can still make that run. I don't think he's dead in the water yet. No, he never is. I mean, that's the good thing about that.

That's the crazy thing about that guy. You think he's out and then he comes back and wins. You never know. Matt, you're about to travel. So we're going to get out of here in just a second. But before we end the show, I want to give you a second because I know you talked about this on Twitter, on X on Saturday. one of your old opponents, a guy I know you have a ton of respect for Robbie Lawler going into the Hall of Fame.

And I know we talk about your career a lot and the guys that you battle and the guys you learn from, the guys you appreciated spending time in the cage with. And I know Robbie Lawler, I don't want to say, I want to speak for you. I know that's near the top of your list of guys you spent time in the cage with you have so much admiration for. I want to kind of give you an open forum here to talk about that because I know that you paid tribute to him on Saturday. And now Robbie, very rightfully so and very well deserved going into the UFC Hall of Fame. No, you said exactly right. He was definitely my favorite fight that I had.

I think the Eric Silva fight is kind of the one that most people talk about is my most excited fight. But for me, Robbie Lawler was my favorite fight. Not only because it's Robbie Lawler and you get to go in there and have a great battle with him, but I learned more from that fight than I have from any other fight in my life. And we did like a media tour where we're like, I think two or three days of, you know, we had to eat lunch together and, you know, do all the other. different interviews sitting next to each other. And he was just the coolest guy, man, just relaxed and comfortable.

After the fight, we were cool. You know, we talked, we've seen him a couple of times and, you know, we chat about things. You know, just a tremendous person. One of the most intelligent, strategic fighters out there that, again, I've talked about this before. You don't think of that when you think of Robbie Law. They're going into that fight. I thought, you know, he's just going to brawl. He's going to, you know, he's going to be unexpected.

and but he actually outsmarted me in a lot of ways and I didn't expect that. So, you know, again, you said it perfect. You know, he's a very well-deserved Hall of Famer. I mean, God, he's been in the sports since 2004. You know, like I started training in 2004, you know, and he was already in there. So, you know, just a great person and a great fighter and, you know, props to him, man. Yeah, it's not a good memory for him, but the first UFC event I ever attended was UFC, I think it was 47 or 37 or whatever, is the one where he got knocked out by Nick Diaz. It was the night that Chuck knocked out Tito in Mandalay Bay in Vegas.

That was the first UFC card I ever attended. Not a good night for Robbie Lawler, but that's how far back it goes, whatever that was, UFC 47 or 44, whatever number that was back in the day. But I love to, and I know you said that before, you called out your, like, people said, oh, but it was a loss. Like, why is that your favorite fight? but I know you've just praised how much you learned in that fight, and that goes credit to Robbie Law because that was a war. Like, it wasn't like a one side of fight. It was a fucking back of war and war, but I love to use it because you're right.

Like, I think of that. Like, I was there that night with Eric Silver in Cincinnati. You walked out to a bench sevenfold. The crowd lost their freaking minds. Your kids came in the cage. It was a really cool moment for you in your home state. And that's what I will remember is like my favorite Matt Brown fight, being there live for your fight being there that night.

That was just so cool. But for you, I love to you say, your favorite fight wasn't a fight you won, but it was one that taught you more than any other fights. Yeah. And one of the big things I learned in that fight was what a warrior is, right? And we're all fighters, right? We can fight some things.

But a warrior, you know, can stay strategic and stay intelligent through the battle and continue to strategize while under pressure, while taking shots, while even being rocked. And that's, you know, I learned the difference between what, you know, a fighter is and a warrior is that night. And Robbie is a true warrior in every sense of the word. And again, we can't give enough props to Robbie Lawler, man. Like he's been a pioneer of this sport and been at the top of the sport for as long as I can remember.

And, you know, people call me a legend all the time. And I'm like, that's bullshit. Like, Robbie Lawler is a fucking legend. And we all got to love him. And, you know, never a big trash talker, right? Never, you know, stay true to himself. the whole time. And, you know, he's one of those guys that you kind of forget that he's there until he's

there, right? And then you're like, oh, yeah, fucking Robbie. Yeah, you know, just established, man. I'm sure he's inspired thousands of athletes, thousands of athletes coming up for many years. And, you know, he inspired me at the beginning, right? He was one of my favorites at the beginning. So it was an honor to share the cage with him and much love and respect to,

Robbie, man. Hope the best form in the future. You did the media tour with him. I'm sure you learned something I learned. Whenever the camera's on Robbie, you cannot get him to talk. I've interviewed him dozens of times. I think the longest interview we've ever done is like 11 minutes. But you get that camera on, dude. He's like the nicest, most talking. He just does not like doing media. I remember my favorite Robbie Lawler store, I went to the UFC in Louisville years ago when I can't remember who all fought that Carson's, Martin Camden and Diego Sanchez was the main event. And I was at the hotel bar. And Robbie Lawler is done. And he comes up and gives me a.

hug and he's like hey you know what's going on he was like we were just he was telling stories and like at the night i was like robbie what the fuck man like you're just like you were like the most talking to dude he's like dude i just hate doing interviews but he was like so he always remembered me and always was very nice to me but he just doesn't like doing media but he's like it's like it's not you i just don't like doing media but man he was like telling stories and he was like the lively he was like he was a life of the party and i was like i wish more people could see this side of robbie because he's just not he just doesn't like that side of it but inside the cage you will not find a more savvy

101. That's what I'd say about Robbie Lawler, 101. Yeah, I couldn't say it better myself, yeah. So you know, hope the best for him in the future and hope retirement treats him well. I think it will. So I thought he's coaching at Kilcliff, I think, right?

Or a part owner. Yeah, and he's, and I know a lot of people have praised. Like, I know he's been working with Michael Chandler. He's in a lot of corners now. Like, I heard a lot of people saying, like, what a great coach he's becoming. So good for him. Good for Robbie. Yeah.

Yeah, hopefully he sticks around in the sport for a long time and brings up a lot more guys. 100%. All right, folks, that's our episode for this week. Want to say a big thank you as always there when the tunes in the show. Matt, I know you're going to be on a tour doing some stuff in Europe. So where can people check you out, follow along as much as you can post? I know you always say you're bad about posting on social media, but. Yeah, I try to post as much as I can, though.

At I'm the immortal Instagram and Twitter, the Immortal My Brown on Facebook. Yeah, well, see you guys there, man. hit me up any time. Absolutely. Always sit in the show. Obviously, we're on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and of course over on the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin.

We will see you guys next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then.