MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Dana White’s ‘Tone Deaf’ Comments About White House Correspondents’ Dinner Shooting

Episode Date: April 28, 2026

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to Dana White calling his experience at the White House Correspondents’ Dinner “f**king awesome” after a shooter stormed into the building and opened fire. Brown lived through a mass shooting in the past and he explains why what White said was just flat out disrespectful and wrong. We also talk about White’s seeming disinterest in the UFC lately as he puts more and more focus on Zuffa Boxing and other endeavors plus we talk Aljamain Sterling’s big win and much more! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, I'm Matt Bouchelle, comedian, writer, and floating head you may or may not have seen on your FYP. And I'm starting a brand new podcast. Wait, don't swipe away. It's called, That Sounds Like a Lot. You know that feeling when you check your phone, read a few headlines and think, That sounds like a lot. I can't do this. Well, I can, and I'm going to get into it every Friday.

You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcast. I'm going to start by breaking down whatever insanity is happening in the world. And then I'll sit down with a comedian or actor or writer or, honestly, anyone who responds to my DMs. This is not the place to get the news, but it is a place to get the news. but it is a place to feel a little bit better about it. That sounds like a lot. Coming May 1st, part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Welcome back to the Fighter versus the Rider. I'm Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, we are coming off a weekend where a UFC fight card happened with 11 decisions tied for the most in UFC history. We're going into a card in Australia this weekend with the fights airing at Matt Brown time

starting at 7 a.m. on Saturday. So that's the very Matt Brown card. and we are still a couple weeks away, of course, from UFC 328. But plenty of stuff to get into, of course, weirdly discourse is going on in this sport. But how's everything with you? Oh, it's great, man.

I thought that those were really good fights over the weekend. Actually, at least Al Jermaine showed out, man. So I got to get props to him, man. He's had an impressive career, and it's still going. I know he was an underdog in that fight, which surprised me. But, yeah. And then, of course, the U.S. Open over the U.S.

the weekend, man, there was some hell of good matches over the weekend. I imagine you watched that, right? I did. Watch highlights. Watched Wyatt Hingerson scored like a 28-second pin, which was pretty cool. I just watched him ball a dude going in. So yeah, we got to me the star of the

weekend for the ES Hoping was Bo Bassett. I mean, this kid, God, just running through the guys that he ran through and that final match with Aiden Valencia, I mean, my Lord, what a match that was, man. I don't think I actually That wasn't the finals match, was it?

But either way. 18 years old, it's crazy. Like, he didn't even college yet. He's like getting ready to go in college this fall. I think there was three. I think they said three kids at the U.S. Open under 20 years old. Because it's Jacks Forrest, Beau Bassett, and then I forget who the third one was. Was it Ben Devino?

I know he was in the finals. He lost, but I know he was in. I don't know. I think he's young, too. So I think he's probably been. Vin de Vino. But man, like,

it's crazy how, I mean, and watching guys like Vito get beat, you know, a world champion coming back and getting beat, it's like the level in America, you just got to have so much love and respect for it, man. The level of wrestling's coming up is so good now.

And, you know, I mean, when you got kids out there, you know, winning the U.S. Open at 18, 19 years old, like, you know you're doing something right in the country, right?

A lot of people talk crap about American wrestling, but man, it's looking good. Well, I'd interview Kyle Snyder a couple days ago. We talked pretty often, and Kyle was talking about Gearing-up for Final X, because he already has his ticket punch because he obviously won the World Championship last time, so he didn't have to go to the ESO. But, like, you know, he's now in his 30s, which is crazy to think.

Like, when he won his goal in 2016, he was 20, youngest American at that time until Gable Stevenson won. But it's kind of crazy. Like, you've got to give him great to guys, Kyle, and I know Kyle Dake made the finals. He's going to have to face the lead to Zillade Valencia, Valencia, in the final and final X. And he said on Twitter today, he's like, he's like, I can't believe I'm 35.

I'm aging in reverse. I'm like, dude, guys like Kyle, Kyle Snyder and Kyle Dake still doing this in their 30s and dominating their weight classes. Like that to me is just as ridiculous as the 19-year-old kids come in their 18-year-old kids because it's so hard to stay on top in wrestling. It's just so hard to stay at that level into your 30s. Yeah, and it's one thing for Snyder to do at a heavyweight, which, I mean, not that that's an easy feat by any means. I mean, those guys are absolute killers that he's been wrestling.

selling against but Kyle Dake at the lower way I mean he and he's just knocking off these newcomers and God man like it's I find it so fascinating what he's done and him is the he's going to be a hell of a match man I can't wait to see that yeah it's kind of crazy because like you think about and then you think about like Kyle's never won a gold medal he's won two bronzes but never won a goal which is insane because I like if you were to tell me 10 years ago like guarantee me what American's going to win a goal I say oh Kyle Dakes the guarantee and then weird shit happens in the Olympics man you just never know like I said you can't predict what's going to happen and boom like I said he's won two bronzes which don't get me wrong that's still a huge achievement like winning a medal

of any kind of into wrestling is good is great but I would have been like oh yeah there's guarantee he's going at least one gold medal maybe two and two bronzes that's just the way the sport goes sometimes yeah and I think he could still do it man it's not too late for him so we'll see what happens this world's but man I'm just stoked the way American wrestling's going and yeah you know we're here talking about him may right so look al-jermaine showed out man i give him a lot of props uh yusev's will always been on a tear and been doing great so um i guess the question is does alzabane get the title shot now off that no monsar gets the title shot most are ever against the title shot i don't care yes they went head to head okay i i mean does he have to have another

fight before he fights for the title maybe why i mean because yeah most are but mozsar should have got title shot a while back too but yeah yeah I mean, I think it really depends on timing because we still haven't heard. You know, we know right now June is the White House. July is looking like, and again, I know, looking like it's going to be Connors come back potentially. And then we know Islam is looking at August. So those are like the big headliners for the summer. September, they usually go on the road.

And that kind of seems like a Volcanowski time, like September, October. October is usually Abu Dhabi or Saudi Arabia or whatever. So I would say probably September. And, you know, if Volcanowski fights Mozart at that point, probably not going to fight a again until early new year? Like usually Volkanowski fights like September, October, then fights again like February. If I'm Aljo, do I really want to sit from now until February, just waiting and then even then there's no guarantee because, you know, Volt could win, but break his hand and he's out longer, or Mosark could win and break his hand. And then maybe they just give

Vulcan immediate rematch. So if I'm Aljima, I just keep active. Like he says he wants to stay active, I didn't want to sit down. I suggested last night, because I was looking at the rankings, I was like, does he fight Yairair, who apparently never fights anymore? I don't know where I hear Rodriguez is that. And then I said maybe the winner of Steve Garcia Diego Lopez and somebody said, what about Jean Silva? And I said, oh, that's a good idea. John Silva would be the one because he wants a title shot he's calling for.

He ain't getting there. At least I hope he isn't getting it based on the resume. But I think John Silva and Aljima would be a great fight. You could headline a card with that one. And then the winner goes on to fight. You try to schedule within like a month of when you schedule Vulcan Mosar and then the winners fight each other in early New Year. I think that's the way to go.

If I'm Algemanian him, he's 36. 36, I just don't think you want to sit for a year in hopes that you get a title shot. Sure, yeah, yeah. Well, that's kind of what my first thought was, was, you know, does he get the winner of that fight? But now that you put kind of the times together, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, stay active, and John Silva makes a lot of sense, and that's a hell of a fight. And it's a hell of an opportunity for John Silva, too, right? I mean, he, you know, he goes out there and beats Al Jermaine.

Then now he can really start putting his name out there. Yeah, and you just never know because, like, when I talked to Mosar before his fight with Lorone Murphy, you know, he had gotten sick and he had to cancel that fight with Aaron Pico last year. And I was like, were you upset? You didn't get a task? No, it's my fault.

I fell out of a fight. It's not my fault. Now, to be fair, when Lerone knocked out Aaron Pico, he probably should have gotten the title shot over Diego Lopez. That's a whole other conversation. But, yeah, you just don't know because, like, we got, you know, that Melki Costa, Arnold Allen fight coming up. Melchie Costa would be looking great.

You know, Diego Lopez, Steve Lucas, Steve Garcia is on the White House. If Steve Garcia goes out there and flattens Diego Lopez, which could happen on a card of that magnitude, maybe he jumps the line. They're like, we're going to give him to Steve Garcia. He's exciting. Striker knockout guy, which that's just, that's not Al Jameen's game. He could lose. So I've always been a fan of staying active. There's no guarantees.

Like literally, they're not handing you a contract saying guaranteed title shot. So if you're not getting that, which they never do, just stay active and keep fighting until you get the offer. Because, like I said, it's always about what have you done for me lately? and if John Silva goes out there and rocks somebody else or Steve Garcia blasts and knocks out Diego Lopez, then you're like third in the picking order all of a sudden. Yeah, and they love giving Diego Lopez title shots, so why not Steve Garcia if he knocks him out, right?

Exactly. Or what if Mozart beats Volk? And then they're like, Diego, you got another title shot. Here's your third. Like, who knows? Yeah. Yeah, it's going to be interesting how it all plays out. But either way, the point is, man, Al Jermaine,

I was just impressed with him, man. And, you know, I train with Yusef way back in day before he's in the UFC. We all knew that he had a lot of talent and he was going to do big things. And, I mean, he showed out in the UFC for as far as he's had so far. And Al Jermain just put a stop to him, man. He looked great. I thought he looked youthful, energetic, you know, like he didn't show any signs of aging, really. I mean, Al Jermaine did what Al Jamein does.

Yeah, he was super apparent. And I know Yusuf's a lot was really good. Like, he's been on a great run too. and he just kind of took him apart and dismaled him outside that third round where Yusov got him down and took his back, but even then he didn't really have Al Jemaine and a ton of danger. He had his back, but it wasn't like he was like really close to getting a choke or anything. But yeah, that was it.

And that was really based on a mistake. And then after that, Alchman just dominated. So, you know, huge for him. Because like I said, man, like generally speaking, you get past 35, you start slowing down. That's just generally the way it goes. But he's 36 and look better than everyone. Especially with weight classes. Yeah, it's the old thing, right?

Walterweight and under. you're 36, 35 supposed to be like the cutoff, which Volcanowski's kind of proved that wrong. He's like 38 and still going strong. But, yeah, that's typically the thing. And Al Jameen looked great, man. He looked better than ever last night. And he needed that kind of dominant way. Obviously, the finish is always better, but, you know, Yusufil's never been finished.

He didn't get finished by Ilya Teporia. So he lost Ily. He didn't get finished. I know that sounds like a weird way to, you know, be proud about something. But he didn't get finished by Uly Tepori. That's a checkmark on your record. I don't care how you say it. So yeah absolutely yeah can't wait to see him in the future that I mean I think he's still

developing as a fighter too as an athlete you know I mean he's still relatively young I mean he's definitely not you know late 30s I don't know exactly how old he is but he's 29 he's 29 yeah yeah there you go so he's coming into his prime right and uh you know I think he's still got a lot of potential yeah I agree totally agree um Matt we kind of closed out the show last week with a very brief conversation about a comment that Dana White had made going into the EOC Whitehouse card And the only reason I'm bringing it up right now, I'm sure you saw the news last night, the White House correspondent's dinner, there was a shooting. And Dana White was there, which was like, Dana, the White House press correspondence dinner, okay. We know these boys with Trump, but it's just such a weird thing.

Like, why are you going to this? Whatever. But he was like seated right in front of the president or whatever. And of course, you know, we saw the weird comment about it. It was fucking awesome. Like, I don't know if I'd really describe a shooting. Is that? Kind of weird, but okay, whatever.

But this kind of comes back to what we talked about very, very. briefly last week about, you know, the U.S.C. You know, Dana saying, oh, the White House card isn't political and constantly saying, like, I don't really talk politics. And if you ever watch me at the Republican National Convention, I just talk about what a great guy Donald Trump is. I never talk about policies or opinions. And I know we talked about it briefly, but with this event happening, you know,

over the weekend with Dana being at the frickin' correspondent dinner when a shooter comes in and, you know, maybe not calling it awesome is not the best way to describe it, but he was there. Matt, here's my question. And I almost hate even talking about this. impossible. Like, this is the position we're put in because it is political. And Dana constantly saying it's not political, but then showing up at a freaking correspondence dinner with President Trump kind of proves the point. Is this like, has, are the U.C. Data White, whatever you want to

call it, making a mistake? Like, they're just marrying themselves so deep to Trump right now that it's hard not to be divisive about this. And I'll give you my opinion real quick, and I'll hand the floor to you. I'm not even saying this. Like, it becomes a left, right, issue. It becomes like, are you a Trump supporter? You're not a Trump supporter? But here's my problem. And I think this is just a general sports fan thing. It's like, I like to watch fights. I like to watch football. I like to watch sports in general decad. Just like I watch a movie. I like to escape. You know, sit down to theater, watch a movie for two hours, just kind of escape. I don't want to think, you know, unless you're going in with a political thriller or something

like that, I get, you kind of sign up for that. But I like to just escape. You know, watch a movie, watch a TV show, watch a game. When I watch the Bingles, you know, they stress me out enough. I don't need to get stressed out by politics on top of that. But this is like, Dana's denial that is anything political is so ridiculous. And I think him being there last night, literally being one of the only people who talked about on the way out of the whole thing, is like, dude, you've married yourself to this situation. Like you literally, it's synonymous. The UFC is now synonymous with Trump and the Trump administration.

I think it's a problem because, like, I'm not even telling you, you are alienating people. There's going to be some people who just don't want to watch your product because I don't want to turn on to hear about Trump for two hours or have it walk into Kid Rock or whatever. but you've now married yourself to this and his constant denials that it's not political is absolute horseshit Yeah I mean I guess like you kind of You got to define like what What you mean when you say political right

And I mean I'm not saying that he's not political Because I mean he clearly is But I think you got to define what that is And you know maybe under his definition He's not because like I mean he's telling like This is like the the standard lawyer PR promoter talk right where it's like like you know to him he's not being political because he's not talking about policy and he's not you know he's not out there saying you know you know trump did a great job with

this war or anything like that right he's like just showing up you know not giving his opinions on things but you know to us and i think to 99% of people in the world like yeah that's political because you're supporting someone who's life is politics right who's the actual president that means their entire life is politics. So I think he's just defining it differently. And again, it's just kind of like promoter talk, right? And it's just saying that it's not political. And, you know, maybe I guess he's trying not to alienate half of his, half the people in America, you know, try to keep it growing, but still support his guy. You know, who am I to say he can't do that, right? I mean, you know, he worked his way to get to where he's at. And so who am I to

hate on it, right? If that's the direction that they choose to do with their business school, but does it excite me to watch? Not really. You know, like I'm not excited also. I'm also not excited to watch Trump walk out. I don't give a shit. I don't like any president and haven't liked any president for at least as long as I've, you know, my generation, as long as I've lived. But that's my own personal opinion. If you like Trump, cool. If you don't, whatever, I don't give a shit. But Yeah, that's about all there's to it. But the other part I say about that, I think you can't go without saying like as good as Dana is about talking and saying the right things. And, you know, he's always, he's pretty good with the PR stuff, right?

Like he knows how to get people talking. And he's pretty, you know, he's a good promoter, right? Like he's good at getting fights pumped up and, you know, talking about. You know, you could argue his style and all that stuff. But I'm absolutely flabbergasted or blindfold. It took me completely blindsided when he come out, when I seen the short little clip of him saying, that was awesome. And I think I have a little bit more justification in criticizing that,

being that I've been in a mass shooting before. I guess you call it a mass shooting. three people died, I think. But I've been there, like, when there was a shooting going on, which most people probably haven't, right? It is not awesome in any sense of the word. Like, it is not fucking cool one bit. And for him to say that, like, I did not appreciate that, right?

And not that my opinion matters, whether I appreciate it, but, you know, there's people whose lives are at risk there. I don't know if anybody even got shot Like did anybody get shot or die? I don't even know One I think what they said last night One one cop or one single service person Did get shot but he was wearing a vest

So he survived But you didn't get shot Like somebody did get shot Yeah so like That that really blows my mind As someone would say that shit Like that was awesome when Like a dude got shot

You know maybe again He survived But like he got shot Like he survived like it's a traumatic Experience for him And there's not a single fucking thing awesome about that Like, people don't need to be going around shooting people.

And there's nothing cool about that. And that's what I don't know why anyone would even say that was awesome. Like, that's the weirdest, most oddball thing I've ever heard anybody say. It's completely tone deaf. I mean, it's completely tone deaf to the situation. Like, I know the, like, and I'm not, like, I'm not going to say I've studied the entire thing that happened. For my understanding, like, the ballroom was upstairs and the shooting happened, like, downstairs. You had to go upstairs to go in the ballroom.

and the guy apparently stormed through a security gauge to open fire. And I've heard different reports he shot two or three times where he shot eight or nine times. One person did get hit and the guy was okay. So nobody else died. But I don't really care. Like, dude, we have to have a mass body count for it to not be cool? Like, is that what we need? Like, you know, like, I'm glad Secret Service.

The police, like, tackled a guy and, you know, got him down and got the weapons away from and nobody else got hurt when the one guy who got shot, thankfully, he's okay. But, I mean, are we supposed to be like, well, only one person gets shot. So it's cool to say it's awesome. Like, that was like, I had to watch the clip like three times to make sure I think it was actually about the shooting because I'm like, was it just talking about the event? Like, was he just saying, oh, it was fucking awesome to be here? Because I was like, no one would actually say that. Like, it's such a weird, I don't care if you're 20 feet away or 100 feet away.

And for people who don't know, and obviously you've told the story before, I don't want to rehash him, but you were there the night at the concert when Dimebag Darrell from Pantera in his band Damage playing got shot and killed here in Columbus, a place called El Rosa Villa. I've told the story. I was supposed to be at that show. I had tickets and didn't go because I was in Cincinnati. I didn't feel like driving the two hours to Columbus. But like, I don't care if you're 10 feet away or 100 feet away. You're in the building where a mess shoot, like where a guy's literally saying he wants to assassinate people.

He wants to kill people. There's nothing cool about that, man. Like, you didn't hide under a table. I don't give a shit, dude. Like, what about, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's such a tone-deaf comment. Yeah, and I'm not one to criticize what people say a lot of times, man. And like, you know, Dana says a lot of stuff.

I think that we could all have opinions about me. That's what he does very well, right? He gets a rise out of people, gets opinions, gets people talking. We talk about what he says all the time. But I'm generally, you know, I'm not like very critical of it, right? I'm like, dude, he's promoting a fight. Like, what do you expect, right? He's promoting two people going to cage and beating people up, you know, to beat each other up in front of a bunch of drunk fans.

Like, what do you expect from the guy, right? But that one, man, I don't really, I don't have a lot of respect for that, man. You can't say that. Like, I thought you said it perfectly well. It was very tone deaf. And, yeah, you just don't say that. I mean, you can say anything just about except for that, right? I mean, there's like, it's a million simple things to say.

You don't say that. Even if you somehow oddly feel that way, it's just not what you say. Well, and here's the thing. I can say this as an opinion because I think most people have probably. share that same opinion like why would you say it was fucking awesome why would you say that right what's awesome about it yeah but putting it back as a guy who's actually been there you were i think if you remember you told me this story a couple times well you were behind a column and the guy was shooting you're like 15 feet away but like i said that matters you're 15 feet away you're in the fucking bathroom during the

shoot i don't care there's a shooting going on where you're at that i can only imagine how terrifying that would be and you think about all the mass shootings we've had in this country at school shootings things like that like that's terrible that's terrible That's terrifying. And the fact that you didn't want to dive under a table and hide or, you know, you just want to know what's going on. Fine. That's cool. Like, I don't think it makes you more of an alpha male because you weren't hiding under a table.

It doesn't mean, trust me. If there's a guy in a gun near me and I have to dive under a table to survive, I'm diving under the fucking table. I'm not really worried about the appearances. But that comment, like, just think about, like, all the disrespect you're showing to the police officers and the secret service agents who were there. Or the people in the room who were literally running for their lives not knowing what was going on. And I just, it was such a weird, like, and he was like, you could, if you watch the clip, he was like enthusiastic. He's, oh, it's such a unique experience.

Unique experience, is that really what you want to describe this as? Like, it's just such a, I don't know, man. I was like, dude, like a million things you could have said, you literally said the one truly wrong, dumb thing to say in that moment. And I put it back on you because, like I said, I could have an opinion. I would imagine vast majority of people agree with me, but you've been through it. You were out of shooting. Like, there's nothing awesome.

about that. No, not at all, man. And you know, that that was one thing. Okay, for instance, like, when I was in that shooting, like I also didn't run. Right. I did for a second. And then I was like, dude, I'm not getting shot in the back. Like, fuck that. Like, I turned around. And that's when I got behind the concrete column. And I was like, okay, I'm going to wait. Because I was actually a little bit surprised at first that everybody was running. I was like, dude, if we all rush the stage, like he can only shoot, you know, maybe one or two of us. And, I was like, I'm going to wait. And, and we'll take him out. And obviously, like, everybody else ran away.

And I was like, okay, well, I'm not going to be the only guy attacking him. That wouldn't be very smart, right? Then that's when I ran. But the way that I came out of that was like, wow, I learned a lot about myself. Right. And I don't, you know, I don't necessarily take pride in it, right? But, you know, I'm not going to, like, toot my own horn about it. But, you know, I was proud of the fact that, like, I didn't run, right?

that I did at least try to maneuver away around or try to figure something out until, you know, he was, I watched him get his head blown off too, right? When, you know, Officer Nigemeyer, which you got to give him, you know, all the respect in the world. That dude's life has been traumatized from this incident, right? He had to come in and he had to make a decision in about two or three seconds because the shooter had a hostage, right?

And he has to make a decision, do I pull the trigger or not? Right. I mean, what a, what a situation for him, right? He had to make a decision. He wasn't even on duty. He was an off-duty officer just in the area or something and seen the call and comes in. And he's, you know, his whole life changed right there. And he actually hasn't been on the force since.

Anyway, my point is, like, it was a traumatic experience for a lot of people. And not even just the people that, you know, witness people get shot or the people that, you know, actually had to shoot like Officer Nigemeyer or, you know, or the people that even. seen anything happen. Like it was a traumatic experience for a lot of people. And I think it's very disrespectful to think that that was to say that that was an awesome experience for anyone. Like I'm I usually don't even really, I don't really bring it up, you know. It's not something that I want to go around like preaching about, but it is something that happened to me. So like, I'm also not ashamed or you know what I mean? I'm not like awkward about it. Like it happened and you lived through it. But yeah, like I just, I can't wrap my head around.

why you would even say that. Other than like the first thing that popped in my head when I heard him say that was all the conspiracy theories. Like all these stages shit, you know what I mean? Yeah. Because it's like I don't know how that could possibly even pop in your head that that's awesome.

Yeah. Like I just don't get it. It was such a weird, weird comment. When I saw it like I said, I was like, is this real? Like did he actually say this? Like what I don't, it was, he called it. That's what I mean?

Like I was like, did this really happen? You know what I mean? But yeah. I'm not going to conspiracy theorize on it either. You know, that could be disrespectful. But, you know, at the same time, like, that's the first place my head went. I was like, why would anybody say it's awesome? Yeah.

And I think anybody who, I mean, I would say sadly at this stage of the game, like everyone's probably known or known of somebody who's been involved in some sort of mass shooting, whether, you know, a cop or, you know, a friend. And sadly, that's just the way of the world. But as someone who actually lived through it, like, you know the terror of that. Like, yeah, like, you're proud of yourself. You had that moment of the only way. what can we do to stop the shooter?

But if you ran the other direction and hit in the bathroom, I can't blame you for that, dude. It's a fucking terrifying situation. Like, why, you know what I mean? Like, I can't blame you for trying to save your life. Like, maybe you don't step on the other person and throw them down in front of you. Maybe that would be a different situation. But, like, you're just trying to save your own life.

But, like, you've been through it. And, like, I remember, I remember, because the first time you ever told that story was on one of our old podcast. And I remember, like, what? Because I think I brought up somehow that I was going down Rosa Villa for a concert. And I think that's how we got on the subject. They tore it down. It's no longer.

anymore but uh and i remember telling you like i had tickets and just didn't go and then you told the whole story and i was like oh my god like that's crazy you were there for that night um but you were there you've lived through it like there's just like that is one of the most horrifying i'm assuming like probably still to this day a little traumatic to some extent like you know what immediately you live through a very no one you know you would hope no one has to go through that but uh yeah it's just like such a weird and i say tone-deb but like i don't know a better word for like what a what a tone-deaf comment What disrespect to show to be able to say that? Yeah, you know, and I'm kind of going off on my own experience now, but, you know,

it wasn't traumatizing to me really at all. But what it did remind me is a very important lesson that we should all be reminded of in life, just hopefully not in that way. But like, dude, any day could be your last day. You just don't know what the fuck's going to happen. Any day could be your last day. The brevity of life just sunk in that day. And I'm sitting there like, dude, like, I'm lucky I'm alive right now.

Now, someone got shot right next to me, you know, as I was kind of running away or kind of like thinking about it. And because I remember I was like, I'm not, I'm kind of running just because the crowd's running and I'm getting pushed and stuff. And I was like, man, I'm not going to get shot in the back. I'm going to turn around and face this guy, right? And literally the second I did that, someone got shot right next to me and how my mind's like, is that a stupid idea, you know? But the point is like it's just the brevity of life, man. like it happened any day and funny enough um almost every two years in my life like i've seen someone die or or at least very close some of them i don't know if they died like i've witnessed

car accidents three times in the past like six years just since i've been back in ohio and and every time it's just a reminder like like dude any day could be your last day man i was the first on the scene in three accidents is that crazy or what like literally the first one like they one of them was a 10 year old kid and I ended up following him for a long time on Facebook after and and in one of them I'm the most certain this woman died she's driving completely alone you know on the freeway like I'm you know six seven car links behind her nobody in front of her nobody beside her just starts swerving runs into the median you know I don't know if she's you know on her phone or you know a bee stung her you know

whatever it was, a spider or something, but, you know, but, we're talking about trauma, you know, like those were probably, there's not really trauma, right? It's more like it just, it reminds you, man, life is short, bro, and you don't know when that day is going to come. And, and by the way, I want to say this because, like, I know Dana is like all about free speech and, you know, say it's a advocate for that too. Like, I'm not saying you can't, like, tell your opinion, you know what I mean? But like, there's just some situation. is like you've got to think about what you say for two seconds. You know what I mean?

That literally felt like, even if you felt that way, you're just like, dude, you don't say that. Like, I don't care. You know what I mean? Like, there's just some situations. Like, you know, that's like, I know it's different, but it's like the guy who's like when they hear about a match shoot. Oh, I would have tackled the guy and beat the shit out.

Maybe not now, dude. Maybe now's not the time to tell how you would have been a Billy badass and like you would have tackled the shooter from behind or whatever. Like maybe just be like, man, this sucks. Like people are dead or whatever, you know. And thankfully, you know, nobody. died, at least from reports I've seen nobody died, but I don't really care. Like a dude, storm

the event with shotguns and guns. His intent was to kill. His intent was to kill because nobody got killed. From actual experience, you have no fucking clue what you'll do. Because it's similar like in the sense of a street fight where like you have no idea what the situation

is going to be. You don't know what the surroundings are going to be. You don't know what the people around you are going to be doing. You don't know when it's going to start. What's going to be doing when it starts? And you don't know what your actual reaction is going to be. Like you, you, you know, you, you don't have any fucking clue. Just trust me on that.

Like, no one has any fucking idea, except, you know, I mean, there's like, I'm sure there's like war veterans and shit that have been through those similar situations. And, you know, they have a different mind for it. But for the general pop, we have no fucking clue, bro. Yeah. And the way Dana said, I think that's what Bob, beyond his fucking awesome. He's like, oh, you know, I didn't hide under the table. I was sitting right there.

I was curious what was going on. I'm like, and I saw another guy who was. It was like, yeah, I ran. I guess he was next to the president. And he's like, are we about to die? Like, when it started? I'm like, yeah, like, I don't really care what your reaction is. Like, the way Dana said, it was almost like, oh, I was, you know, I wasn't hiding under

a table. Dude, I'll hide under a fucking table about two seconds flat. I mean, life or death, you know? They're like, you live if you sit here or you live if you get under the table, you die if you stand up. I'm diving. Like, I have no problem with that. You know what that tells me, I'm not a fucking psychologist or anything either.

But what that tells me is like, you know, Dana is cool. with his life, right? Like he's not ambitious to do more things. And I think he kind of see that in the UFC a little bit, right? Like he's not necessarily out there grinding like he used to. Like he's kind of done everything that he can do. And, and, you know, it's one of those things where they talk about like money, there's a certain amount of money where like you don't have happiness anymore beyond that. And, and I think a lot of these people, they get to that level of wealth. Like they start searching for things to bring, you know, dopamine hits, right? Because they're at a point where they can buy any dopamine hit that they want, right?

If they want to go, you know, 200 miles in a car, they just go do it, right? If they want to go in a fighter jet or something, they just go, you know what I mean? Like there's nothing to work for anymore. There's nothing stimulating that's going to bring that dopamine hit. And that's my own completely untrained psychologist, you know, assessment. But that makes me question, you know, his hunger to stay in the game. Yeah. And I don't want to turn this into like the old Dana White episode.

And obviously, some people are going to be uncomfortable even talking about the mass shooting thing because it is a scary thing. But obviously you live through it. So you have a better perspective than pretty much anybody who's not lived there a mass shooting to understand why it's not fucking awesome. But I want to talk about this anyways because like when he was at the correspondence there last night and there was a fight going on in Vegas, a lot of people like, see, Dana's checked out. Like there's been this complaint for a while now that Dana is just not as into the UFC. Now, here's my theory on this, man, getting on this subject a little bit. Here's my thing is, like, I think Dana found true excitement and exhilaration building the UFC to where it is this multi-billion dollar corporation.

And when Endeavour bought it for $4 billion, like he was ready to go. Like, he was going to leave. And they basically said, you know, we want you to stay. And everyone else was gone. Joe Silva left. The Fratita's left. Like, they all went and cashed out and good for them. But they convinced Dana to stay.

And I can't help. wonder of like doing like power slap which is the stupidest shit ever but power slap Zupa boxing like I kind of feel like Dana likes building things like Dana likes building successful businesses which a lot of people that's that's what fuels them and I can't help but wonder the UFC kind of runs like a well machine now now you can argue and say like the quality of the fight cards are bad or they're not paying guys enough which we know that's true or whatever and that that that that that that that absolutely is a conversation to be had but like I think everyone knows at this point Hunter Campbell kind of runs the day to day

you know fight matchmaking contracts about agreement stuff like that and and when people like dan is checked out he's oh i'm not checked out i love it just much they ever do but like you can't help but question that though when people are talking about like some of these things like you know it's just you can't and i my opinion is dana likes to build data wants to build successful businesses and the uc's already successful at that like i'm not saying the ufc could go tomorrow and dana could leave it would be the same company but it kind of feels that way because because it kind of just runs itself now. Like they know what they're doing.

They got the apex. They go on the road. Hunter Campbell runs a lot of this stuff. Like, it does feel a little bit like Dana's checked out. Like, I know that's been a complaint for a while. Everyone,

Dana's checked out. It does kind of feel that way. Yeah. And my question would be, what other successful business has he ever built, though? I mean, he's tried a lot of it. I mean, you consider power slap of success? I mean, I hate it.

But, I mean, I don't know. Maybe, like, if they're, if they get money from, YouTube and Twitter and like social media like maybe that's like maybe it's funding itself you know what I mean and like they got that money from it and like they do have sponsors and stuff and I'm sure there's no way power slive athletes are making very much money I mean come on so maybe but yeah I get what you're saying but maybe they're making money but they're not like UFC money nothing like that for sure yeah I mean what I'm getting at there is that I think he likes the idea of building successful businesses and he's got a lot of ideas and he has the money and the means to now play around with those things. But the UFC is really the only successful thing that he ever did. And it was, I mean, you could get into the whole arguments about the history of it and everything.

And they did some good things, right? You know, getting it back on the cable TV, you know, doing some deals there and stuff. But realistically, like the guys like Campbell McLaren, like they're the ones who built the UFC, right? that like they're the ones who started the whole idea. So, you know, Dana and the Fertitas built it into the monster that it is. So it was a sellable enterprise, which is a skill to the, I'm not taking anything away from that. But, you know, Dana didn't build it is my point. And I'm not, you know, I'm trying not to hate on Dana here and put him down and be too assaulting.

But like, I don't know any successful business that he has actually built. I mean, I know, like, I'm trying to think because, like, he did, like, some surfing competition. I know that didn't work out. Yeah. You know, he's had a couple of other things I know haven't really worked out. And I wonder, because there's some guys, like, some business people you see, like, everything they touch kind of turns to gold. Like, they kind of, you know, they have one idea. It blows up.

They have another idea and it blows up. And then they invest in this thing, and it blows up. Yeah, I watch, I see a lot of like what Mark Cuban has done. Not saying everything he's done has been successful. That's kind of his thing. He likes to build new things and, you know, kind of create things. And that's probably every, you know, Matt, you know, every billion. and they're out there.

They want to build something, sell it off and build the next thing. It's harder than it looks, though. Like, it's not easy to just, you know, you find, like, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm, because, like, it's like Elon Musk, like Elon Musk didn't create Tesla. He didn't build Tesla.

He bought Tesla. And then, yes, he did turn it into a massive, massive success. But he didn't make it. It wasn't like he designed the fucking electric car. Like, he was just smart enough after he, I think he sold off his shares in PayPal. I think that's what he helped to, like, you know, get really invested early.

And then he bought into Tesla. And yes, he did help make. it to what it is now and he's the richest male on earth. Or credibly, Jeff Bezos. Like, he had the idea of, like, you know, taking Amazon, turning into a bookstore and then, you know, creating what is now Amazon, which everyone uses Amazon. But, like, he had that one great idea. Now, you know, maybe he'll, you know, maybe he'll do something else and create our

things. And there are businessmen who do that. But, like, yeah, it doesn't really, Dana's that dude. Like, he's tried a lot of things. By the way, good for him. I'm not saying you shouldn't try different things. But to me, it's almost like you built or you helped to build one of the most successful businesses ever in terms of the UFC.

I mean, I think it was basically going out of business and now it's a $20 billion organization, you know, and like, you know, so self-sustained that you don't really need to be there as much anymore. Take pride in that. I'd be happy if I built one thing like that. And I understand, like, I'm sure there's part of it's like, I want to build another thing like that. But I don't know if it almost feels like, well, I don't need to be there.

Now I can work on power slab and I can work on, because you hear him talking about Zufu boxing and, like, there's almost like an excitement in his voice that you just don't hear when he talks about the EOC as much anymore. When he talks about the EOC, it's almost like, yeah, this is what we do and blah, blah, blah. When he talks about Zufa Boxing, he gets fired up. He's talking about Eddie Hearn and getting all pissed off. That's how he used to be about the EOC.

Well, he was also a boxing guy first, right? Yeah. And, you know, in every business, I mean, look, there's guys that there's investors, you know, there's angel investors, there's founders, there's creators, there's creators, there's operators, right? And Dana, you know, I think his role, from the beginning, more or less, he was, I don't, I don't know this for a fact,

but I don't think he was ever, like, really the business guy, right? I think that for Tid has kind of handled more of that. And a lot of the back end, you know, people on the staff probably did more of the operations and actually built the actual business stuff. You know, Dana's always kind of just been the mouthpiece, right? And the, I mean, I know he was a huge fight fan and always has been. And, you know, put together a lot of the main event fights. And, you know, it's not.

saying he didn't do a lot of things but you know people act like he was you know the architect of all this and and and and as if you know he did something magical that like no one else could have done but as far as I could tell me he was more or less just the the frontman of the organization there's a lot of people on the back end that were doing more of the legwork and you know maybe even a lot of the ideas and and do a lot of the creation I mean I know lot of people like during that era like people always praise Lorenzo Furtita he just stayed behind the scenes he didn't do a lot of talking but he was like a big part of that and then he's the business guy yeah and Joe Silva was like the talent scowl joe silva was the guy who found the fighters he

found everybody he kind of trained sean shelby and sean shelby and shon shelby and hunter campbell's there but like it's not like dana's out you know fucking cffc every weekend scouting young guys like that's not what he does he's never really done that that was that was kind of joe sylva's business and now it's john shelby mcmairdard um but yeah i wonder like yeah i mean i think you're right. And like I said, he absolutely deserves credit, but it's not like he did it alone. It's not like he was the guy orchestrating everything that ever happened to the UFC.

Well, the one thing I was going to add to is the one thing that I noticed that I think was different when Dana was more involved, and it was before it was sold off and when it was still kind of on the come-up. I do think Dana was more of a big fight

fan guy, right? He wanted to put together the big fights. He wanted big stars. And that's what I feel like he's been taken away with Dana, kind of stepping to the side a little bit. And to be honest, he may or may not have the power to make that happen at this point. And if you don't have the power to make it happen, it may just not be as interesting to him, right? He's like, he's probably out there being like,

look, I want to get Connor McGregor on the White House and let's make this a fucking huge car. And the guys on the board or the staff or TKO guys are like, yo hold back let's do it this way so yeah so of course he's just gonna be like okay well i'll i'll fuck with zufa boxing that i don't care about this shit you know what i mean so that that's what my guess is i mean you know i'm not behind the scenes and don't know but that's what my guess is is like he's just he can't do it kind of the way that he always wanted to do it now he's beholding to investors he's beholden to the tk group and this board and they're they're telling him these things and

and that's not as exciting. I mean, it's just not as an exciting way to run your business. I mean, when he was, when he was president with the Fortitas, it was just them. It was just those three guys. And Frank wasn't even deeply involved as Lorenzo and Dana pretty much. Like, they would kind of make all the decisions. But even like when they signed that deal with Fox, which was a very big, very big deal to go from Spike TV to Fox when they did that years ago, like that was Ari Emanuel.

Ari was the agent who went in and negotiated the deal with Fox. and, like, of course, you know, I'm sure they had little details they wanted to get in there, and, you know, are you going to take the ultimate fight or whatever? But, like, and that's what agents do, by the way. Like, that's Ari Emanuel's job to negotiate that kind of deal. He's done it for, you know, dozens of, probably hundreds of times. But, like, it wasn't like Dana was by himself in the boardroom talking to Fox executives, like making that deal.

Like, even then it was Ari Emanuel doing it. But now you're absolutely right. Like, I know Ari and those guys have always said, oh, Dana's in charge. Like, Dana runs the EOC. But like it or not, like, when Connor says, I want $30 million to fight to come back, Dana's no longer the guy that can just pull that trigger. Like, he's going to have to double check with Ari and Mark Shapiro and the guys of Tico and they're going to have to approve it.

Like it or not, because you're dealing with a publicly traded corporation. They have to account for every single dollar on their books. And like it or not, like, and maybe he just doesn't. That's why he's like, Hunter, you take care of this shit. I don't want to deal with it because I don't want to go to the fucking corporate, the corporate bullshit of doing it because when it was just him and Lorenzo, they just decided, yeah, we're going to do this and we're not going to do this. Like that was the buck stop with those two.

Now it's not that way. They have a whole freaking share. shareholders, investors, board members, they got a whole lot of people to answer to. And I think you're probably right. It's probably like, you know what? I'm just going to do something else and kind of like, you know, like I actually do think he's still involved in the day-to-day,

like, you know, advertising and sponsorship deals and like, you know, where they're going to go, like, you know, countries are going to travel to things like that. But, yeah, I don't think it's the same. And I think that's probably a big part of it. Like, it's not what it once was. Like, it's not like he could just call Lorenzo at 2 o'clock on Friday night, but hey, let's do this. All right, cool, boom, done.

Conversation is over. Now it's, okay, we're going to do this, we want to do this, let's call Ari, let's call Mark, let's get, you know, and they've got to decide, like, what's the bottom line, how much can we afford to do this, blah, blah, but so, yeah, like, and like I said, I would have been, I actually wouldn't have been shocked of Dana left in 2016, because everybody else did, everyone's like, we're cashing, like, when Joe Silva, and I remember when that happened, I was, I was surprised for a minute, because I know Joe. I know, I haven't talked to Joe in years now, but I used to talk to Joe all the time. I love Joe Silva. I know he was a very, you know, very, very, um, A lot of people didn't like Joe Silva in terms of fight people, but I always like Joe Silva. And when Joe cashed out and left, I was like, man, it's kind of surprising because he was just so deeply embedded in it. But then I thought about it and I was like, I don't know how much he got, but he probably got a lot. Like, I know he had, like, he was there before Dana. Like, he was there before the Frititas. And I'm just like, he probably got, I don't know, $5, 600 million, something crazy like that, $400 million, whatever his investment was.

Yeah, I could see, like, you know what? I'm not going to have control anymore. Like, I'm not going to be the guy who's going to decide, do we sign this guy? Do we sign this guy? Do we offer this guy more money? Do we not offer this guy more money? I'm not going to have that control anymore. I'm just going to fuck off and live in luxury for the next, you know, 50 years or my $400 million just cashed that on.

I get it. But at the time was like, man, like he was so deep into it. But the whole world changed. It's not just Joe Silva's decision anymore. So maybe that is it. Yeah. Again, we're just speculating, like we don't really know. but, you know, if we break it down kind of like we are here and you think about the day-to-day logistics and being Dana White, like, I think you'd be a little checked out too, you know?

Like, it's not the business that you brought up, right? It's not what you bought in, what fucking year was they? About 2001, 2001 when they bought it, yeah. Yeah, you know, it's not that business anymore where you could just do what you want to do. and you're like grinding to get it, you know, legalized through all these different states. And, you know, you're trying to figure out the TV deals, how to make this thing a thing and make it sellable. And, you know, I mean, that sounds like fun, right? Now it's, like you said, it's a well-oil machine.

That's not fun. Now it just runs, right? There's nothing really exciting about that other than, again, maybe, you know, making like the big fights. Like, that's where you would get your excitement from. Like, let's make some fucking crazy big fights. And we haven't really seen much of that. I'll tell you what, real quick, I want to mention this for, I throw one thing at you.

I know you're going to laugh at this, but I'm going to throw this out of it. And I'll tell us my personal store. I used to go to pretty much every UFC card in the United States, and then I would go to, I went to a lot in Canada. I didn't really travel online internationally. This is mostly when I was working at Fox. And there was, I had a passion for it, man. It was a blast going to those events and kind of like, you know, like there was still,

there was still like a format to everything that was happening. but at some point after the TKO thing happened, or after Endeavor Bottom, everything started being so uniform that it just kind of stopped being fun to go to events because it was the same thing over and over. You show up, you go to Media Day, then you go to the press conference,

and you go to the weigh-ins. And it was just like there used to be a time like you'd walk in a room and I'd see a ton of fighters and we'd chit-chat, but hey man, let's go back to your room and do an interview. The access is gone. Like you're sitting in a room, you're asking questions. That's over.

You go process. of shit. The next day you go to the press coverage. You sit down, ask your questions, get out and go it. It just became very, like, you know, and I get it. Like, that's how the UFC runs their machine. But for me, as somebody who's been around for 20 years covering the sport, remember the kind of, like, Maverick days of, like,

going into a fighter hotel and interviewing guys in the lobby and shit. Like, that just doesn't happen anymore. And I'm fine with that, but, like, it just kind of got to, like, where it was monotonous. Every show is exactly the same just in a different city. Like, I'm going to Milwaukee. I'm going to Chicago. I'm going to Sacramento. And it's just, like, the same shit.

I really just enjoy working remotely now and I think that's just the nature of the beast with the EOC. They're just a well-old machine now. And for their benefit, it's probably easier just to roll in and do the same thing over and over and over again because they just have it running that way.

Sure. You know, maybe. And we also, you also lived through the times, you know, when I was still fighting and, you know, we lived through, I find it hard to believe that's ever going to get back to what it was when we had Rhonda Rousey coming up. when we had Connor McGregor coming up

I mean these were just epic Brock Lesnar coming through I mean this was just epic stuff that I just I don't think it's ever going to be like that again I mean when Brock came into the UFC like I fought on the same card as him when he fought

Randy Couture and I mean it felt like the biggest thing in the fucking world yeah and Brock Lezzer was there you know I was I met him you know, at the check-in, you know, when you check into the UFC and everything, sign of posters. And, I mean, it felt like it was just ginormous, you know, it felt like rock stars. And I know, like, I'm sure the guys still feel like that, you know, but there's, I think we live through a time that we're just never going to see again with the Connor McGregor.

You know, I fought on the car with him when he fought Chad Mendez. And there was something in the air that I don't know if they can get back. Right? Like, they got like Alex Pereira, you know, maybe John fights again. Ilya, you know, Ilya, but that's, it's just not the same. I don't even know how to explain it, but like it was different when, you know, we were kind of a, I mean, again, we lived through such an amazing time. Like, we were kind of a fringe sport, like, you know, on the MMA Underground back in the day, or Sherdog, like trying to see who won the fight because we couldn't watch it on TV. And the next thing you know, you know, I'm fighting main event on Fox.

and you know and and and and Connor McGregor's got millions of people coming from Ireland tearing the MGM grand of pieces of you know like it could just be a little biased because I did live through that time and and was a part of it but it's hard to imagine that those times are ever going to happen again with the way the UFC is running right now I mean it does feel like I know there's been a complaint about this and I think it's real like there's a superstar problem in the UFC there absolutely is like I I don't care how you cut it. Like, you know, I mean, like, it doesn't, like, when Rhonda was Rhonda, there was nothing bigger.

Like, Rhonda and Connor were, like, the peak of Superstar. Yeah. They were as big as you could freaking get. And I remember, because I went to, I was at pretty much every Connor fight up until I stopped traveling the shows. And that was pretty much up until the pandemic when he got injured and everything. But, like, I've been, I lived through the Aldo fight. I lived through, like, a lot of it. And, like, that atmosphere was nothing like it, nothing like it.

that when Connor fought in those days. Like, it was ridiculous. And I was, I remember, even when Rhonda was in Strike Force, and I was at the show here in Columbus when she fought Misha Tate and won the title, even that, even being in Strike Horse, like the magnitude felt different when she fought. Like, she had so much attention around her. And you're right with Brock, too. Like, I remember, I remember talking, I had Brock on my old show one time.

And oh, my God, like, it was just like the biggest thing ever. Like, you got Brock Lesder to do your show, blah, blah, blah. But, like, yeah, it does feel a lot different. Like it or not, there is a superstar problem. Like, people are still talking about it. talking about Hori Mazidol coming back in fighting and Connor fighting and is Dustin Pori are going to come out of retirement? Why?

Because we just don't have that level of attention. I think there's still fights that could be made that would be big. Like I think Islam and Ilya would be massive. I think that's probably one. I do think, like it or not, I do think what Armand's doing right now is going to build into where he can actually have a pretty big fight with Ilya because he's, I think, but that's more on RIF. That's something when he's done in the U.S.

with all this RIF shit he's been doing. He's getting more attention from that than his freaking. UFC fights. But, like, I think there's still a couple of those, you know? But, like, they didn't have it, like, like, like, like, and by the way, I think Kayla Harris and Amanda Nunes is going to be an incredible fight. I cannot wait for that one. But they put that as the co-main to Justin and Patty.

Sure. I mean, you and I, I'm sure you and I are, like, really excited for Kayla and Amanda, but the UFC didn't put them as the main event. They should have been the main event. No offense, interim title should not be over top of an undisputed title, but they clearly thought Justin and Patty was the bigger fight. Now it didn't play out. Kela got hurt.

But like, yeah, it's a problem right now. Like, there's only like two or three people who can really truly sell it. And, like, I think, I think Ian Gair and Islam will probably be pretty big. Like, you know, Ian's got a pretty, and Ian's going to talk trash and it's going to build up that fight a little bit. And Islam's just Islam. He's kind of stoic and goes out there and just absolutely assassinate guys. But, yeah, like, it doesn't have that same feeling. Like, I think Hamza and Strickland's going to be pretty big because they really hate each.

There's going to be a heat there. And Hobbson's a legit star, but there's only like three or four now. Like there's just not that feeling. You definitely don't have, I don't care what Islam, I don't think anyone is of that Connor, Ronda, Brock. Like, no one's of that magnitude. Yeah. And I think Ilya is like, to me, it's the only one who really has that chance. You know, I don't know when he's going to peek out, you know, in terms of his fame and mainstream success.

but like one of the one of the common themes around all of these superstars we're talking about is uh i guess maybe other than ronda but she you know she was the first female so that was it's kind of a little different but you know guys like connor like he had he had the country behind him gsp had had canada behind him right and if ilia could get his country behind him which i don't know if they are already they might already be but you know there's a he's a pretty he's a pretty big star in spain like when he went home they had him at like the big soccer match which is a bit i'm not a big soccer guy but i know he's like really big into so like i think he does like i think he does have a little bit not to interrupt i think i think he does have spain behind him but yeah i

know what you mean though yeah i mean it kind of comes to mind first when you think about like gsp i mean those shows in canada were fucking insane i mean they love that guy you know and You know, if you're not going to be the character that Connor is, like, you got to have that, that kind of support behind you, right? Like, you can't, it's kind of got to be one or the other, right? You got to keep winning and you got to have, you know, you know, a country behind you. Connor is obviously different because, I mean, he's such a character, you know, he was able to get a Mayweather fight. And again, you know, things like that, like, are we ever going to see a crossover like that again, you know, or even, you know, I mean, it could be a crossover. crossover with WWE or something, I don't know, but, or maybe a Zufa boxing crossover or something.

But again, I feel like these were special times that we lived in when, you know, you had Brock Lesnar coming over, you had Connor going in and boxing Floyd, you had Rhonda coming in as the first girl. And she had legit opponents, you know, every A side needs that B side, right? All he needed Frazier and, you know, Connor needed Jose Auto. and Ronda needed Misha Tate. Yeah. You know, and we need this, right?

And so even if you get, like, Ilya to be a star, you know, who's his arch nemesis? You know what I mean? Like John had D.C. Like, this is, like, to me, is what really makes the biggest fights and the biggest stars. Yeah, and let's be honest, they missed out on one. with Ilya and Islam. Like, that should have happened because, like, that would have been a huge, huge fight. But I also understand, I defend Islam on this when he's like, you know, Ilya hadn't done anything at that point. And so it didn't really make a lot of sense. Now, when he went out and knocked out Charles Val Avaire the way he did, it made sense. And if Balaahmahma had beaten Jack Delamadena, Islam would have stayed a lightweight, we would have seen that. But, you know, things played out the way they did. I can't fault Islam because it's not like Islam just suddenly up to say, you know what? I want to test Weldweed. He said it for years. He said it's a tough weight cut. He knew he was going to move up eventually just didn't want to fight his friend.

And when Bilal lost the title, it was a perfect opportunity. And I'm not going to fault Islam from me like, I want to achieve greatness and become a two-to-be. He needed, like, I know he'll never say this, but in the back of my mind, I think it was always about it. I need to do something to separate myself from Kabib because, you know, Kabib is, you know. Maybe not, maybe not, like, record-wise, but I think everyone would probably agree, like, in terms of talent, he was the best lightweight of all time. Now, he may not have to resume to back that up because he retired maybe early. but like no one that dude was so dominant like he was just like he was just a monster and a half but islam is doing things that even could be and by the way I'm sure he was incredibly proud

of Islam I don't think he's jealous or anything he's probably like go get a third title um but like now he's kind of made his own legacy because he went up to welterweight and dominated now he's like he is a star Islam's a legit star um so I don't fault him for that but that was one they missed out on because Ilya and Islam would have been huge you know what I mean that would have a massive massive the fight. But yeah, and right now we're depending on Connor coming back at 37, 38, I think he turns 38 soon, and he's going to fight, you know,

for the first time in five years. Like, that's what we're depending on to make this kind of superstar card. Like, and you're right. Like, I remember John and D.C., I was at their fights and oh my God, like that was huge. They had so much hatred between each other. It was so huge. It doesn't feel like we have that really right now. Like, it doesn't, like, I'm trying to think, like,

what is, like, I mean, Hamzot and Strickland's going to be it. Like, that's going to get pretty nasty. I did know what Dana said when they're talking about doing the, they do the new Paramount Space off. I was like before the fight, they get them together on like a fake cage and they do like the big circular camera, whatever.

And he's like, no fucking way, we're not doing that. I was like, yeah, you're just asking for problems with that. So he's like, we're not doing that shit. I think that's going to be fun. I think that's going to be a fun lead up. And the White House card is going to be ridiculous just because it's going to be so weird and having like the press conference. It's going to be because of the White House,

not because of the card would be a big card regardless. but it's only as big as it is because of the White House. And I think, I mean, I think honestly, if you want me to be honest about it, like I think the best, like the most intriguing fight that provides the most, like, interest is probably Cyril Gaon versus Alex Pereira, not the main event. Because, let's be honest, Ily is going to be massively favored to win that fight, and deservedly so. But like, the real, like, I think the one you're like, ooh, I'm kind of curious what's going to

happen. It's the co-main event. And even that doesn't have that, because Cyril Gaunt is just not. that dude, like Cyril Gahn's never going to be like, you know, oh, yeah, I'm going to talk shit to Alex Pereira. Right, right. But if Alex wins, and we'll talk about that closer to, if Alex wins, him, him and Tom could be pretty interesting because Tom's got a good personality, you know, and I think that

could be fun, but yeah, like, it doesn't have that feel to it. And I know you're right. It's the White House. It has nothing to do with the fighters. This has to do with the White House. So, yeah, even that's different. I mean, both those fights, like, everybody would watch. Like, everybody would love to watch it.

But that's, that doesn't have that. Again, you go back to like the the Connor Mendez, Connor Aldo. Like it doesn't have that kind of feel to it where, you know, you're like, dude, what's going to happen? Is he going to, you know, is he the guy? You know, it's like if Alex wins, like I'm not going to be shocked. If surreal wins, I'm not going to be shocked. Like, I mean, Gage could definitely shock some people, right, by beating Ilya Teporia. But like, you know, that could create a good rivalry there, right?

but when we talk about, you know, A side and B say you need them both, right? The highest potential I see of that is like Hamzot and Strickland, right? If that turns into a five-round fight and, you know, it goes to distance, it's a real close fight, calls for a rematch. Yeah, I could see this being a real, you know, a great trilogy or something along those lines, which is what makes great fights, man. That, like, that is what, that is the essence of fights. Like he had Manny Pacquiao fighting Marquez five times.

You know what I mean? And going back and forth like controversy over who won. And then Marquez knocking them out the one time. And then, I mean, you know, Ali Frazier. I mean, the list goes on. But these are the fights that you get Uber intrigued about. I mean, you can make the match. I think like when you start getting into rematches and trilogies,

that's when it gets extra, extra interesting, right? like Gotti Ward, this type of shit. Because before they fight, y'all, you think you know what's going to happen. And then they fight and you're like, oh, that's not what I expected at all. But it was, you know, if it's a great fight, I mean, that's what like Jones and D.C., right?

Like it was, we all thought like D.C. would have a chance. We're like, dude, D.C. can beat this guy, you know? And then John comes out and proves the wrong. That made it so much more interesting and intriguing because he's like, you know D.C. can do it. but then John just keeps being John, you know, that level of greatness that he has about him. So, you know, but I don't, they've never been big on rematches like that and especially like trilogies and stuff.

And it's always about the next fight. And I don't know, for me, that, that's something that I've always loved. You know, I've watched all the Godi Ward fights. I've watched the Ali Fraser fights. And, you know, that's just something I think is missing in the sport. Well, there's a reason why people aren't to like it, but they could disagree all they won't but there's a reason why the most interest in the sport right now, like it or not, you don't have to like it,

but it's Rhonda and Gina because they're two stars. Rhonda, like it or not, Rhonda was a massive star. Gina, like, because she achieved mainstream success. Like she was in Star Wars and obviously getting fired and having that other things. Like she was, I mean, she was talked about everywhere, maybe for, you know, I'm sure she wishes it wasn't for that happening or getting fired from a job. But like it or not, she was in Deadpool, like, she was in like real movies. and like made a career outside of fighting

and Gene like I remember when Gina was like because I was at Gina's first Elite XC fighting Jersey back in the day and like it was her and Kimbo it was like one of the only times there was someone outside the UFC that had that kind of attention Kimbo was a star

and Gina like I remember I was in Jersey and again it goes back to that intrigue of like we don't know what's going to happen right is that dude is he the guy right to say with like Rhonda and Gina like that's what everybody's kind of intrigued about, right?

They haven't fought in forever, which I don't think that, you know, in terms of quality of fight, yeah, that might diminish some of the quality. But are people tuning in to see quality fights? Like, if they wanted to tune in and see quality fights, they'd watch every Islam fight. And he'd be, or Demetrius Johnson would have been the biggest seller ever, right? That's the intrigue of, dude, like, what the fuck's going to happen in this? Yeah, exactly. And so, like, like, Gina and Rhonda is going to be one of the most talked about fights

of the year. Is it going to be good? I don't think so. But that doesn't really matter. You're absolutely right. They're not tuning in because, oh, my God, this is going to be the greatest fight ever. They're tuning in because they're like,

I know Gina Carrano is, I know Rhonda Rousey is, and they're going to fight. That's what's building. And again, again, also the mystique and the intrigue of what's going to happen. Like, these are two of the baddest women on the planet, but they haven't fought in a combined 15, 17 years or whatever. It's like, dude, this could go any way.

And, you know, if it turns out to be a great fight, I mean, that's a huge icing on the kid. But it's like Jake Paul and Mike Tyson, why did everybody tune in? They're like, dude, can Tyson do it? He's 58. Just there's always, you know, the biggest fights have this level of intrigue about him. And that's what Connor did so great was he, was he made us be intrigued, right? Because he'd say, I'm going to do this.

I'm going to do this and, you know, talk all that trash, right? And like even when he fought Mendez, you know, I mean, we're like, oh, and Mendez is the type of guy that's going to beat Connor, right? He just made some intrigue, right? Like, that's the matchup. That's the one, you know, he doesn't want to fight him, even on short notice, right? Yeah. But, you know, you've got to have some of that in there.

Well, even with the Kabim fight, like, I think we all knew going into it, like, Kibib was probably going to beat Connor, like stylistically, he was the award. But it didn't matter because there was so much heat and just hatred between those two. That's all. Well, they get Connor sold the intrigue, right? Because he said, he said, I'm the bad dude here. Not you, motherfucker. Yeah.

And so, like, I think that's like, and I think that's part of the intrigue of, you know, Mike Perry, Nate Diaz. Like, you know, Nate's 41. You know, Mike Perry hasn't fun. Neither one has fun to have him in five years, but there's intrigue there. Like, I'm like, dude, Mike Perry's been knocking people out left and right and BKFC. And he is a legit weight, probably even closer to the middle way now. Nate Diaz has always been a lightweight.

He's never been a big welterweight. I'm like, man, this is going to be interesting. So, like, yeah, like it or not that intrigue is there. And Nate Diaz is also more of a boxer, really. He was originally jitigigigigigigigab. He's really a boxer. So it's like, yeah, you know, is he going to stand with Mike? Like this power punch and a guy that just comes forward?

You have to get people a reason to watch. Like, you think about, think about like, I started somebody talking about Jake Paul and Anthony Joshua the other day. Like, on paper, we knew it was going to happen. But there was enough intrigue there. People saying, could Jake do it? Could Jake somehow pull off? And then the other side was, I want to see Jake get his fucking head knocked off.

But it was an interest enough to do it, right? there's an interest to watch just like Connor and Floyd. No one should have been picking Connor. No one in their right mind should have picked Connor. That tells you how good Connor was to sell an entreat. But that didn't matter because we were so intrigued with a fight. We had to watch it knowing what was like watching. I didn't want to watch the fight.

My wife at the time threw a party. And everybody came over to watch the fight at my house. I'm like, well, I guess I have to watch it. It's at my house and a bunch of people are here. I actually, what's funny is I actually watched it. I watched that fight with our boy Jeremy Loper. He hosted a little party at his house. And I watched it in his house.

Yeah. That's probably 90% of the people watch it. It was like, well, there's a party, so I'll go. Oh, yeah, this fucking fights happening. Yeah, but like I said, like just with like, you mentioned it last week. You kind of feel dirty after the Tyson-Paul fight, but there was just intrigue.

People were like, oh, I want to see what Tyson's. Because be honest, Tyson looked good against Roy Jones Jr. a few years earlier. You're like, oh, maybe. No. And just like, you know, Jake has a chance. against anything Joshua. Not really, but you never know. Right. And that's it. It's that intrigue. And that's what I feel like is being lost in the UFC right now. Like they're not selling that intrigue. And to be fair, you know, most of the

guys like I think part of that, just a small piece of it is the level of competition is coming up too. Like these are serious guys in there now, right? Not that there wasn't before either, right? But you know, you had guys like, I don't know, Tito Ortiz, like, talk. I think he was one of the original trash talkers. Like, I don't care anybody says. Like, he was really, like, one of the original, try to sell a fight talking shit guys, right? Love him or hate him. And, you know, I know he's got CT through the roof, but, you know, is what it is.

Right. He was one of the original guys. And that was what got us intrigued to watch the fight. And he was good as selling that fight. And but he wasn't a serious athlete in terms of, you know, compared to today, right? He was a great athlete for the time. But compared to today, like, he wouldn't hang in the 205 division. He would never get a title shot in the 205 division in his prime coming into today.

I mean, he just wasn't that grave an athlete in that sense. But I think that's a piece of it, too. It's like the level of athletics that have come up. I mean, you got guys like Homs out that are world-class wrestlers, you know, and going out and kickboxing with guys, too, you know, beating him in the state. striking and you know you got guys like DC who's a you know medalist in the Olympics and you know when you come from like to real athletics like like Alex Pereira's a world champion kickboxer you know you don't get to that level of athleticism for the most part

there's there's very few and far between but like how much shit talk do you see at the u.s. open you know like that like this is just not the the style of person that's going in and grinding every single day for hours and hours on You don't have the energy for that shit. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, given the time and time, you know, I hope a guy like Gable Steven progressive becomes like a legit star, I think he's got that potential. You know, gold medalist young, you know, trained by John Jones.

Like I think, but like I said, you just don't know. Like, you just don't know. I think when he fights an international fight week, he goes out and absolutely wrecked somebody, which I think he probably will do, then you start building him up. And then you're like, okay, prayer's going to fight, you know, Aspinol. And oh, my God, here comes Gable Stevens. You know, three or four fights away. He's going to fight for a title, whatever.

then you start building towards that and you can have that kind of intrigue. But yeah, it does. I say give him one UFC fight and give them the title shot. I think what you do is you give one fight, you do whoever, and let's just say Pereira wins, because let's be honest, no offense to Cyril gone and the eye poke and all that kind of stuff.

But Pereira, Tom Aspinall is a bigger fight. It just is. Like, it's just a bigger fight. Aspinall and Pereira fight at the end of the year and then early 2027, Gables fight in the winner. Sign me up right the fuck now. And I'll tell you, I really believe, I don't know if I'm off base on this, but I think when you take that chance and you give a guy like Gable,

the title shot straight, kind of like what they did with Brock Lesnar, like you just project them to the top straight away. I think it adds that level of intrigue where, and then if they do it, like now they're immediately a fucking superstar. If they don't do it, it's like you still got a superstar in Alex Pereira. I mean, people kind of forget, because I was just watching, I watched a big interview with Brock before he retired from WWE recently

and he talked about it. He's like, he came in and lost to Frank Muir in his second ever pro fight. They brought him back and he beat Heath Herring in a decision. Didn't knock him out, didn't, you know, he beat him. I mean, he beat him up pretty good, but he beat him. And then he went right in the Randy Couture fight. People didn't go, fuck, he lost to Frank Mere one fight before, and he only had

three professional fights. He's in there with Randy Couture would be greatest mixed martial arts ever. And he went out to end. Yes, he did have about a 70-pound weight advantage of Randy, but he beat him. And that's all people cared about. They didn't care that he lost two fights zero. People didn't care. He only had three professional fights.

It was Brock Lesnar. And I think Gable's not Brock. I mean, obviously he's not Brock. But like, if he can go out there and just wreck some dude on International Fight Week and maybe put him as like the co-main or the featured fight on the heavyweight title fight between Pereira and Tom, boom, right into a title. So don't fuck. Don't fuck around. Don't fuck around.

I mean, think of Brock. And four fights, half of his fights were against world champions. Yeah. Ridiculous. Ridiculous. Yeah. It doesn't happen. Yeah. It's amazing.

So, you know, I think there's something to that, man. But again, I'm not running the UFC. I don't get to run the show. Maybe one day they'll pick me up. Dude, you got the best opinions. We'll put you in here. There you go. I like it.

I like it. All right. We're going to get out of here. Obviously, this weekend I mentioned the UFC in Australia. A couple good fights in that car. Carlos Prakis and Jack Della and Madelaine. That should be a banger. I'm really looking forward to that one.

And Quill and Sal Kill, who's looked incredible taking on Benile Darius. That's an interesting fight. So pretty good fights on there this weekend. Early start time, 7 a.m. Easter for the main card. So get up early on Saturday morning to watch the fights. This is like prime time for Matt Brown. But the 9 p.m. start times are better.

You have to admit that. A little earlier start times now have been better for the UFC. Paramount, give credit for that, doing like 8 and 9 p.m. start times versus 10 p.m. So at least there's doing that. But I like the 7 a.m. even better because they just lay on the couch and watch and wake up as I'm watching fights. I love it. I love it. Matt, where can people check out? They want to support you what you got going on outside this show.

At I am the Immortal Instagram and Twitter, the Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. Yeah, you know, everywhere else I'm guess. The Immoral cast. You got the podcast now. YouTube and Spotify, the Immortal cast. Probably some other stuff too. I always got shit going on. Yeah, it never slows down. Well, we appreciate everyone that tunes in the show each and every week. make sure to check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and of course over on the best website in the world, MMAFighting.com.

For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin. We'll see you guys next week for another edition of The Fighter versus the Rider. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then.