MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Dustin Poirier Contract Situation, New Rule Proposals in MMA

Episode Date: February 6, 2024

The Fighter vs. The Writer returns with UFC legend Matt Brown and MMA Fighting senior reporter Damon Martin discussing the latest news in combat sports. This past week saw UFC 299 lose a marquee fight for a matter of hours after Dustin Poirier declared his bout with Benoit Saint Denis was off after he couldn’t come to terms with the promotion on his deal. A few hours later, Poirier chalked it up to a “misunderstanding” and that his fight with Saint Denis was back on again. Brown offers his take as a tenured fighter in the UFC as well as revealing details behind his own negotiations with the promotion. We’ll also discuss the rules changes suggested by California State Athletic Commission executive director Andy Foster, particularly with the definition of a “downed opponent” as well as the 12-to-6 elbow rule. Will these rules actually change and even if the rules are approved, will the various commissions actually adopt the new rule set? We’ll discuss that and much more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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DarkTrace is the cybersecurity defenders deserve and the one they need to defend beyond. Visit darktrace.com forward slash defenders for more information. Podcast network. Back to the fighter versus the writer. I'm Damon Martin. He is UFC legend. Matt Brown. and Matt, we are back for another week where we are, we had a fight card last week,

UFC fight card. We had another fight card this week in the UFC, but not necessarily the biggest fights in the world. So I think we're all kind of anticipating UFC 298 in a couple weeks. Yeah, unfortunately, they're both Apex. Well, last week was Apex. I imagine this week is too, right? It is.

It is very much an Apex card. Yeah, and you know, man, like the Apex was cool during the pandemic and shit. But come on, man. Like, I think everybody's over that shit. aren't they? They are, but here's what I'll say, and this is not going to make anyone feel any better about this, but the reality is that I don't mean this as an insult. Let me be clear about that. I'm not trying to insults anybody. But last weekend's main event between Roman Delizze and Nasredine M.ov. Good fight, whatever. I'm not, and certainly not insulting to fighters. But you can't take that fight and go to an arena and try to sell 8,000 tickets. Like, no one's going to, so this is a way you can put on a fight card. You can put it on TV and people will watch and it'll go towards your ESPN contract, but there's not going to be 5,000 people willing to pay 50 bucks to go see that as the main event. Like, that's where we're at.

Like, you can get people to pay to see Alexander Volcanowski and Ilya Teporia. You can get people to see, you know, whatever. But like, in this weekend's event, like Jack Hermanson and Joe Piper, good fight. I have a hard time believing 5,000 people are going to buy tickets to see that fight. So I think that's kind of where we're stuck out with this APEC stuff. no man like the UFC's got such a powerful brand and like you go to you know a smaller city you know not even a small city but a smaller city with that hasn't had a UFC like I think they'll sell 10 15,000 tickets pretty easily with no name value at all on the card maybe I mean maybe

that's I don't know and also I also know part of it goes into travel costs and you know production costs like traveling around with the octagon whatever whatever it is, you know what I mean. So who knows? Like I said, who knows what it's going to be? But I think the apex is here to stay. Like, I think at this point, the EOC has found like a, just an easy way to put on shows in their own backyard. They don't have to travel. They don't have to do anything. They kind of control costs and they can put on shows that maybe wouldn't sell a ton of tickets and still gives them ratings, still goes towards their ESPN broadcast contract. And, and, you know, it also gives, you know, the roster a chance to continue to expand and

bringing guys like Contender Series guys and Ultimate Fighter guys or whatever. So I don't think the Apex is going away. I'm with you. I'm over it. I'm so over it. But I don't think it's going away. But you know, that makes sense, too, you know, building up guys. Maybe they could sell out an arena, but, you know, let's get them some more exposure.

Let's keep them on ESPN. You know, let's see how they do on some of these Apex cards. I guess that kind of makes sense. You could kind of handle it that way. way too and then build the guys up over time. And then once he kind of builds his name up, it's like, okay, now let's go get you on a fight night, almost like a tier system, which they don't really do necessarily, but that would make sense in my head, right?

Like you kind of start at the apex. If you main event that, then, okay, now we're going to take you to a fight night. You main event that. And now we're going to take you to a, you know, a pay-per-view, maybe a co-main pay-per-view and then eventually main event, you know, something along those lines kind of makes sense to me. I mean, if you look at also, I think part of this also comes down to the UFC really starting to really try to stack the pay-per-views. Because when you look at 2.98, Volcanovsky and Tuporia is at the top, which is the main of it.

You got Robert Whitaker, Apollo, Costa, Jeff, Neil, Ian Gary, Marab de Walshvili, Henry Sehudo. And then Anthony Hernandez and Roman Coppulov as like the five-fight main card. And then you got Amanda Limosch and McKenzie Dern on the undercard. But you look at the four top fights, like Whitaker, Costa, Niel, Gary and Marab and Suhudo, in the olden days, one of those fights would easily headline a fight night card. But now instead of putting Marab and Henry as a main event on a fight night card, they put on a pay-per-view to kind of bolster the pay-per-view. So I think that's kind of where we're at now. Like, if you look at $2.99 in Miami, it's stacked.

Like, there's a lot of good fights on there. They could easily have shifted one of those into a main event of a fight night and taking it out to, you know, Texas or Ohio or wherever. but I think they're starting to learn like the formula works where you can put Joe Pfeiffer and Jack Kermanson in a main event on the apex. Do your thing, up-and-comers, blah, blah, blah, and then you take that Suhudo Mirab fight and it goes and helps sell your pay-per-view. I think that's kind of where we're at now, and it seems like that's the formula the UFC likes to work with.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense too. Is it just me? It feels like there's not as many pay-per-views as it used to be, or is it just because we're on a little bit of a, you know, a little gap here in between paper views. Yeah, we are. Like, it's still one a month. You know, it's still one a month.

So just, yeah, but we're, we're on short time for the next two because we got the UFC 298 is mid-February, February 17th or whatever the date is on that. And then UFC 299 is like two weeks later because it's March night. So it's like you don't have to wait very long between paper views. And then April 13th is UFC 300. So we'll get chugging along. And also, I mean,

UFC 297 wasn't the biggest card. I mean, no offense to Strickland and Drake is, but it wasn't like a marquee card that everyone was like super excited about. Yeah, well, them guys sure made a lot of buzz, though, even though I wasn't totally excited. I mean, DDP and Strickland definitely created a lot of buzz. And, you know, I know around at least my circle, which they're always talking about fights anyway,

but my circle, like everybody was talking about that fight. Yeah, absolutely. Well, UFC 298 is again a couple weeks in UFC 299 right after that. And that is a UFC 299 is an absolutely killer card, of course, with, you know, Sean O'Malley and Cheeto at the top. And then the co-main event, which is Dust of Porier against Benoit St. Denis, which we almost lost last week, which was a bizarre, like, day. It was one of the weirdest days covered in this sport. Last Thursday, Dust of Porre just randomly puts out a tweet saying, fights off, but I'm still working. And we're all like, what?

What? Like, what happened? I'm reaching out to everybody I know like did somebody get injured like I assume bin while st. Denis must have got injured no nobody has any idea what he's talking about like no one's like what are you talking about what is he talking about and then he tells a couple of people dust of poor he tells a couple of people couldn't come to terms and uh and we're moving on and then five hours later misunderstanding didn't get to hold my manager we're all good fights back on now matt you are more inside baseball than even i am because you work for the oc you work

in the UFC. Have you ever, let me put you on the spot here, have you ever had a fight announced that wasn't a done deal? Like from the UFC, they announced a fight and you haven't signed a contract or you have an official, like, and I'm not saying this is specific to you

because you're a fighter, you obviously can answer this question. I know it happens. I know for a fact it happens that fights get announced before they're officially a done deal. I'm sure that's happened to you at some point. It has never happened to me actually Really? Never ever

You've never had a fight that they've announced It wasn't a done deal Yeah but I think it may be a little different too Because I've never really negotiated They just you know Like when they send me the contract I'm like all right let's go The only time there was something

Sort of like that Was I was supposed to fight Nate Diaz one time And I actually posted That I signed the contract And I got in trouble for doing that because he had not signed yet. I mean, he, I don't think, you know, he obviously never ended up signing.

But, yeah, that kind of threw me off a little bit because. So the lady, I'm not going to say her name. She's a great lady, but we had a couple of issues. She works at the UFC and she had some problems with me that I didn't really do on purpose, but I think she took it kind of personally because her job is on the line, right? Like, you know, it's a, it's that, you know, I made her look bad. and so she is already kind of on me a little bit, but when I posted this contract,

it said five rounds, and I didn't even know that it said five rounds. I just signed it and sent it back. And when I posted it said five rounds, and she kind of came at me. She's like, you know, you shouldn't have posted that. You know, it's supposed to be three rounds. I made a mistake.

Like, are you trying to get me in trouble? You know, so it turned into this kind of big thing. And obviously, I guess I wasn't supposed to announce. it because they tell us not to announce the fight until they get to announce a fight, right? We sound the contract and then they announce it. So I said that's the only time I've ever even had an interesting thing happen with a bad agreement. Wow. And that was how long?

I feel like I remember this. The Nate D.S thing. When was that? I feel like I remember that. It would have been like 14 or 15, maybe 13, you know, sometime around there. Yeah. So and it was, yeah, that would have been a good one, man. That would be good.

Yeah, it's just, I know it's more common, though. I know it does happen. And I'm not saying it's always a negotiating tactic. I'm saying that, like, fights get announced without a guy signing a deal. Like, you can verbally agree to a fight, you know what I mean? But, like, fights get announced without contracts being signed all the time. I know that. It's not that uncommon.

Now, is it common for a fighter to agree and then not sign his deal and then try to get more money? No. And I'd wager most guys don't have that kind of leverage. but it does happen. Fights do get announced without contracts being signed. That absolutely happens. Like, I think we all know it happens. Yeah, because I don't know what, like, if Dustin was saying, like, you know, we didn't come to terms, like, what would that mean?

Because, like, they just set the terms and you just sign the contract and go. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. But, and this happened with Dustin before because Dustin was supposed to fight Tony Ferguson a couple years ago. They announced it. And then Dustin, you know, said deal wasn't done. And then Dana came out and said, you know, you can turn down a fight or you can negotiate your way out of a fight, which was, you know, kind of funny because I think we all know what kind of do Dustapour is. And cooler heads eventually prevent right after that.

He signed a new like eight fight deal and ends up fighting Connor twice. So, you know, things like this happened. But it's just funny, like, because I think, I think like the behind the scenes work of MMA gets lost sometimes. Like there's a million fights to get announced where, I mean, I do it. I've announced fights and said verbal agreements are in place. But I always caution until bad agreements are signed, nothing is official, right? Like, you, I mean, that's what, that's the nature of the business. Like verbal agreements are part of it.

Like, I'm sure not to, again, not to put this back on you, Matt, but like, I'm sure at some point you've had a fight announced where like maybe the contract, well, you said you just sign and go on. But like verbal agreements are typically what get it. Like if they get both sides to say, yeah, we're in, then they'll announce it. You know what I mean? And then it's just a matter of the dot in the eyes and cross the T's kind of thing, right? Yeah, I guess so. Honestly, it's something I don't really know a lot about.

I have not a lot that I can comment on it because, again, they asked me if I want to fight this guy and I say, okay, and sign the contract. I've never really negotiated or asked for a different guy, you know, that's just not really been my style. So for me, it's been pretty simple. You know, and I've always been happy with the way they treated me and the pay they give me and everything. So I think, again, that's why I don't really know what they mean when they say they didn't come to terms. Yeah. Like what terms are you're going to fight a guy, you know, on this day, go do it. Yeah.

There's that argument that when you have a contract in place, like let's say you have a fight-fight deal and you're on fight number three of that five-fight deal, that that's part of it, right? Right? Like you're just taking the next fight on your contract. So what is there to negotiate? Is that kind of what we're like kind of what we're talking about here? Yeah, that's how I feel about it. But I know, I guess maybe sometimes maybe Dustin, maybe he's closer to the end of his contract trying to renegotiate. And that those terms he was talking about, maybe something like that. But even then, you know, I probably should have negotiated more than I have. You know, I can only speak my own personal experience here.

and when they have offered me a new contract, I said, okay, thank you. Let's go. What am I going to fight? I never really negotiated that either. And maybe I should have. Maybe in retrospect, maybe I should have. But I never did. I've always just been happy to fight and I love what I do.

And it keeps me in the gym every day, keeps me out of trouble, keeps me from going out and partying and drinking and all that stuff. So I'm pretty happy with my life. So whatever happens, so the Neh Diaz, whatever like he just didn't take it is that what happened they didn't sign it and uh you know first i want to make sure no one out there says oh he was fucking scared or you know i didn't want to get them like i don't believe that for one second um Nate i i don't remember if i talk to him or nick or maybe a friend of theirs or something but basically they just they don't want to

fight people that they like and they like me so yeah i think that's all it came down to um You know, so respect to him, right? You know, now he wasn't as big of a name back then either, as big of a name as he is now. You know, I would probably push a little harder for that. Back then, you know, they was like, yeah, we don't like fighting people we don't like. It was, okay, no problem.

I'll fight the next guy. Yeah. Now, has it ever happened where you've accepted a fight and then the opponent didn't beyond an ADS thing? Like, where you say, oh, yeah, I'll take him. And then for whatever reason, they come back and say, no, he doesn't want to fight or he's not available. or anything like that.

Has that happened to you? I don't remember that ever happening. I know like things have been changed a million times, right? Injuries or, you know, I've had so many fights I can't even remember them all. Again, like I just don't really ask questions, you know what I mean? They send me the contract, I sign it. If they want to switch the guy up, okay, if they want to, if that guy doesn't sign, whatever. It's like, you know, give me a date, give me a place.

and let's fucking put somebody in there. You're like the easiest guy ever to negotiate with. They're like, Matt, do you want to fight? Yes. Okay, we're good to go. Yeah, yeah. You know, there was one time where I went and talked to Dana about my contract. You know, I went into his office, you know, show me around.

We chatted for a little while. And finally, you know, we got to the negotiating time. And he said, you know, how much you want. I gave him a number. He said, okay, let's do it. I probably should have asked for more, you know, but, you know, I thought I got my worth and it was pretty simple, you know, so I think that's part of me having a good tenure with the UFC and part of why, you know, I'm friendly with them and they help me out. I help them out. You know, I've just

always been simple with them. And, you know, I think, you know, on the other hand, you know, I think Dana likes some of the drama too, right? Like he likes guys kind of pushing back on him. I think he enjoys that a little bit. I don't know for sure. But for me, it's always been real simple. So, yeah. I know that everyone wants to paint, and I'm not certainly not here to defend it, but like,

I know everyone wants to paint the UFC as like the evil empire, and they're always lording over guys. And it certainly has happened. You can look at some of the unsealed records of the ongoing anti-trust suit going on and see some of the nasty negotiations that happened. But everyone's got a different experience. Like, how did Jim Miller earn his nickname as Jim fucking Miller? It's because Joe Silva knew, if you called Jim Miller and said, hey, I got a fight for you, here's the

date, here's the name. Jim Miller would say yes, because that's just who Jim Miller is. And it sounds very much like that's who Matt Brown is. Like, when they call you and say, hey, here's the name, here's the date, you good to go? And you say, yes. Okay, good to go. That's not going to be the same for everybody. And of course, there's going to be hard negotiations for certain fights and certain fighters, and I certainly don't begrudge that. But I don't necessarily think it's always like the UFC sitting around twirling a mustache saying, how can we screw the guy out of money or whatever? Like, are there occasions where a fight over money will happen and you'll get a dumb

statement like he was negotiating his way out of a fight? Do you really think Dustiporri is going to do? Like, is he really afraid of somebody? Like, come on now. But, you know. Yeah, the UFC's running a business, right? And anytime, you know, there's, so when we look at it, so when we look at it, all these opinions, people talking about what they think about the UFC stuff.

There's 99% of people don't own businesses, have employees, you know, understand the ends and outs and the intricacies of running a business. And then there's even less percentage to understand running a large at-scale business. And then there's even less percentage that, you know, probably like five people in the world that understand running a billion-dollar business or multi-billion-dollar business, right? So, you know, to say that to try to say we understand how the things are operating and what's going on, it's hard to put our two cents in on that when it's something we really just don't understand. So I try to keep a little bit of respect for what they're doing in those terms. You know, it's just like when people criticize me fighting, right?

It's like you ever been in a fight in front of millions of people against a trained killer? you know you got to watch how you criticize right so you know it's just people speaking on things that they don't understand people like to give their opinions but you know there but there are some things that are like clear and obvious good and bad right like we've seen from this lawsuit like there's been some bad things said there's been some good things done too so you know i think you got to kind of um you can't really compartmentalue mentalize the whole thing. Like, there's a lot of intricacies and nuances involved.

Yeah, and I know you've always maintained, like, a pretty good working relationship with the UFC, which is why, like, obviously, you give your opinion on things that are happening in the fight business, but I always like getting your perspective because I think it goes, I think it always, I think a lot of times it seems like there's always this adversarial nature to it because we see it so publicly play out with this guy's duck,

me or they won't fight me or this guy and that guy. And we love drama. Like we do. We love drama. We all love that's part of what makes the world go round is drama. But like I enjoy hearing like guys like you and Jim Miller who are just like, yeah, I don't really have that experience. Like it's not, that's not my experience. Now I'm not, I'm sure you're not begrudging the Destiporrii had a different experience that maybe he did have leverage and he did say, hey, you never actually had me sign a contract. So I want more money and five hours worth of drama resulted in probably Dustin Porre get more money good for him but that's not the experience you had and that's okay like you're not that's as you said maybe you shouldn't

negotiate harder but that's just not who you've been yeah and ultimately I can look back and you know be proud of the way that I've handled myself and that's what it's all about right you know and there is two sides of that like there's absolutely the side like yeah you know you You could have negotiated more. You could have got more money or whatever. But I've, you know, I set out on this path years ago to be the greatest warrior that I could be and live the warrior lifestyle. And that's the way that I've lived every day since I started on this path. So that's the way I'm going to continue going.

And I think I can be proud of that. I always think about, you know, how am I going to think about myself on my deathbed, right? because that's the only time that really matters in life, right? You know, when you look back and see kind of how you lived your life, right? I'd like to kind of speak to my elderly self at times, right? What's my elder, what kind of advice is my elderly self going to give me right now? You know, should you go cry for more money or fight for more money? Or should you, you know, go out there and fight, give it your all and prove them that you prove to them that you're worth more money?

you know, there's just different ways of looking at things, you know, so I just look at things a little differently, I guess. You know, we're all going to fucking die one day. You know, I'm pretty nihilistic about it, right? Like, we're all going to be the ancient Americans one day, you know. I think sometimes 100 years from now, not a single person on this planet's going to be here.

Yeah. Or maybe like 10 or something, you know, in 100 years specifically, you know. It's like, who really gives us shit, you know? Yeah, it's, um, I don't know, And it comes down, like we talk about the fighter pay conversation. Like, do I believe fighters as a whole are underpaid? Absolutely.

I absolutely believe that. I absolutely believe every fighter deserves more money. Whether you're talking about you or Connor McGregor. I think you all in some way, shape, or form are being underpaid based on the value and the revenue because I see the financial disclosures of what the UFC is making. That being said, if you're happy with what you're making and you're not complaining and you're, you know, satisfied with what they're paying you, who am I to tell you that you're wrong? Like if you go, like you said, like when you go in and you said,

you gave Dana a number. Now I joke like maybe I should have gave him a different number, but you gave him a number and he's like, yeah, we're good paying you that. And you're happy with that? Who am I to fault you and say you should be happy about that? Like, do I think as a whole we could do better as a sport on paying fighters? Sure, absolutely, absolutely, 100%. I'll battle for that till the day I die.

I've always said, I'm in this business for the fighters. Not because of the promotions. I'm here for the fighters. I like to consider myself a fighter advocate because the fighters are what make the world go around. Fighters are what make MMA go around. But if you go in and you say, hey, I want this number, this is what I want to get paid,

and they say, sure, we'll give you that number. Who am I to say, oh, no, no, no, no, no. You should have asked for 50,000 more. You know, if you're happy, like, who am I going to begrudge you or Jim Miller or other guys? If you're happy with what you're making, who am I to tell you otherwise? Well, the question, I guess,

when you talk about the fighter pay, you know, that's one of those things. So I don't necessarily hate the UFC or mad at the UFC for the amount of money that they pay us, right? Specifically be like, again, I'm talking from my own experience. Like I've lived a good life. They provided a good lifestyle for me. And I'm pretty happy with it. The only kind of caveat to that and the thing that, if anything comes of this lawsuit, you know,

I hate seeing the UFC have to pay $4 billion, right, if they lose this lawsuit or $5 billion, whatever. But the only thing I would like to see in this kind of whole conversation we're going with is then being able to test the open market a little bit more, right? Because the contracts are more restrictive, right? And I think we've seen that. I never really thought about it before until Francis in Ghana. know he goes out and i mean he made what 30 million dollars or 40 million or something when he fought tyson period yeah was that the number ridiculously i don't know the exact number but a lot it was something like that definitely big yeah definitely big yeah and and under the ufc i mean he just

wouldn't make that much money you know now someone like me i would probably you know i don't have a name like frances um you know i wasn't champion so i would probably even test in the open market it probably would have stayed with the UFC. So I can't hate on that personally. But guys like him, I do like to see him have that ability to do that. And, you know, so that's the one thing that,

the kind of caveat to that whole thing. Yeah. Because when we talk about, you know, negotiating terms with the UFC, like you don't really negotiate. Like they have the power. You know, it's like,

okay, well, you don't like our terms. well then go to fucking Bellator you know it's like well I want to fight the best guys well I want to fight the UFC well I want to make more money was like well this is what we're going to pay you buddy so it's a little bit of a catch 22 there and that's kind of my only problem and I don't even know if I'm necessarily you know saying it all exactly the way that I wanted to be said but you know that's the one part that I would like to see be better I guess Yeah, and there's a balancing act with that as well, as you said,

not everyone's going to be Francis and Ghanu. And a big party in Gano's thing was being able to do the boxing match with Tyson Fury. You know what I mean? Like, I would imagine Connor McGregor, or, you know, let's just let's not use Conner's example just because he's the biggest. Like, let's say in Israel out of Sonia, who is a star, probably makes a pretty good paycheck, makes good pay-per-view bonuses, all that kind of stuff. If he hits the open market, could somebody like, you know, Mark Zah,

Zuckerberg decided he wants to do Facebook MMA and he's going to pay him $20 million to do one fight, sure. But in terms of business, like the UFC's still going to be able to pay him more than anybody else out there for an MMA fight. Like, that's just the reality. He's not going to make that kind of money

unless you're just going to put yourself in a bigger hole, like what Affliction did back in the day paying Tim Sylvia $900,000 and go out of business a week later. You know what I mean? Like, can it be done? Sure. But, you know, and I say this all the time. Like, the UFC is the only promotion that makes money.

Like, I'm not knocking one championship or PFL. Like, I think what they do is great. I'm glad they're out there. But they're not making money. Like, you have to realize that. Like, they're still. Yeah, that's an issue. Like, that's a problem.

Like, yeah, like, PFL is not making money. They're not turning a profit. Like, they're hoping to turn a profit, but they're not. So, like, there's a got to be a balancing act there. Like, I'm certainly not in favor of robbing the fighters out of their livelihoods. And I, again, 100% believe all of you. should be making more money. And the money is out there to be paid.

But we also have to remember the UFC is literally the only one that actually turns a profit right now. So if Israel Adasanya becomes a free agent, PFL wants to pay him $20 million for one fight, I would say go for it. Good for you. Like, just like you were saying, like that free market should be there. But also long-term projection is PFL, are they going to survive paying Israel out of Sanya $20 million for one fight?

Probably not the wisest investment long term, you know? So again, you got to balance it everywhere. Right. And I don't know the inside of the business quite that well where, you know, could the UFC allow things like that to happen and still be the top? I think they would. But again, I don't understand, you know, the economy and the finances of the inside of the actual business part that well. But, you know, but again, that's kind of the part that, you know, if I, if I would like to see one thing change on the business side, and finance side of fighting. It's just that, you know, just people be able to go test more often or have more ability to test more often. And again, it doesn't really apply to me because I don't think I would have probably made more money elsewhere or, you know, once you get the title, that's when it all changes,

which, of course, is when the UFC wants you the most too. So that's, you know, so I understand their side too, right? they're like, dude, we built you up to be a champion to make all this money. Like, you know, that's, you're basically our product. You know what I mean? So I get both sides of the argument. And, you know, so I guess when it comes to the lawsuit, we'll just kind of see how the judge or the jury or whatever kind of see it.

Yeah. And again, I'm not saying it's always this way, but you can also like, you know, there is a benefit of having the UFC machine behind you. Like, would you be like, could you open your own gym? and have the level of success you're finding if you weren't Matt Brown, the UFC fighter, if you were Matt Brown, the ring of combat champion. Like, are people going to come flock to your gym

to say, I want to train with that guy? Now, I'm not saying it can't be done. There's certainly great gyms out there that don't have big names attached to them, but like, you know, that does help, it doesn't hurt. Yeah, well, it's just a different battle. And sometimes I almost, just on that specific subject, there is pros and cons, too, right? there's being that you know my name is on my gym is the immortal martial arts center

that actually does create a completely different uh barrier to entry for some people a lot of people you know they think that they're you know they're coming into a fight gym right that's what they think you know so it actually creates a barrier of entry in a lot of ways um but you know so I guess if you're opening a gym you know again I can can speak to that because I do it and I own a gym and I understand it. When you're dealing with that, there's pros and cons, you know, opening from nothing and opening with a name. For me, the pro of opening with a name is that, you see, I didn't actually know how to run a gym when I opened it. So if I did open without my name, it would have been shit.

It would have been went out of business, you know, because I didn't know. how to run a business. But now I know how to run a business. So with the knowledge I have now, like, I could open a gym with no name and do very well. Right? So it's like there's a little bit of a balance both ways there. Yeah, there is. There absolutely is.

But like I said, again, everyone's going to be different. And I think that's what I want people to take away from this conversation. It's not a one-size-fits-all. What's good for Dustin Porier may not be good for Matt Brown. And what would be good for Nate Diaz may not be good for Matt Brown. Like I said, I love, you know, I love me you said. Like, I've never had that issue because I've always just, you know, like, I've been happy with what I'm doing. I said yes and move on.

Like, you know, and that's, and I'm sure you don't begrudge Dusta Porre for want more money. Like, if that was ultimately what he did, and I don't know for certain, but it seems like that's what actually happened. And they said, hey, we're going to add on an extra, you know, 50 grand, 100 grand,000, whatever the number was. And they said, okay, let's get this deal done. He says, okay, misunderstanding, my bad. And they pay him, good for him. Like, I'm certainly not going to begrudge him that. Yeah, I mean, you can't never hate on someone for caring about making more money.

Yeah. You know, that's something you kind of learn as you grow up. Like, I used to be that guy like, ah, you know, money doesn't mean everything or, you know, money doesn't buy happiness. This is the stupidest quote ever because, you know, it could, but it was not the stupidest quote ever because it's true. Like money doesn't buy happiness, but being broke buys you jack shit. And so, you know, there's, again, like everything, there's two sides to that, you know, just because money doesn't buy your happiness, doesn't mean that you're going to be happy broke. So, you know, so, you know, I think of viewing money in a different way would benefit a lot of these kind of lower level people, you know, that don't have that mindset, that growth mindset.

You know, because there's kind of a stigma attached to it when he's like, oh, I'm fighting for money. and it's like, well, what fuck us are you going to fight for? Like, we're not in, you know, the 10,000 or like 1,000 BC or something where, you know, where the warriors are respected and giving gold and get all the girls and everything. It's like, you know, we've got to do it for money, right? No one actually gives a shit that you're a fighter, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's funny. I always remember a quote from the movie, boiler room.

He says anyone that tells you money is the, money is the, he says, anyone tells you money is the root of all evil doesn't fucking have any. Anyone says money doesn't buy you. Happen to look at the smile on my face. Ear to ear, baby. There is like, you know, I mean,

you can sit here all day and say money doesn't, you know, money doesn't matter, but it does and that's the world we live in. So, you know, like it or not, that's the reality.

You know what I mean? Like everyone, you know, it's just being broke, done to do shit. So, you know, you may know. So I look at,

the way that maybe this will help anybody listening, maybe not, but the way that I kind of changed my entire framework around the way that I look at money. So I used to be that guy, right? And a lot of my UFC career

I was that way and that was why I kind of set that standard where you know, they kind of knew that I would just fight, you know? Like they knew that it was because I didn't care about money. But I kind of changed the way that look at it where like money is my

scoreboard and how well I'm doing in life. you know, rather than like, you know, being hungry for money, because there is those people that, you know, they'll sacrifice their integrity for money or they'll lie for money or steal for money, you know, things like that. That's where it can be the root of a lot of evil. But when you view it as a scoreboard

that completely changed my entire perception of money altogether. Yeah. Yeah, it's like I said, man, I mean, there is a reason why they call this prize fighting. mean like it is prize fighting like you're you know you love fighting um and i'm sure you would want to fight no matter what but you know it makes the difference that you're getting paid to fight like you know like you know would you would you go out and train because you love training and do all that absolutely but would you still have to have a fucking 40 hour a week job to be able to support that yeah so isn't it nice that you get to fight and get paid for it like that's the you know that's

the bonus that's the gold at the end of the rainbow so to speak that's exactly and you know for a lot of these guys, well, you know, or me, like, you don't want to fight forever either, say, and you don't, you're not, you're not yearning to get a fucking regular job after. So, yeah, it'd be nice to make some money, right? Speaking of, speaking of negotiation, has there been any update on the, on the immortal return? Unfortunately, no. Nothing yet? No.

We're looking, we're looking at UFC 300. I think that card's almost filled out now. Still waiting for a main event, though. Still waiting on a main event. We still don't know what's going on there. Dana keeps promising, but days keep passing and wait for this main event, Dana. Come on now. I know, I know.

Yeah, I don't, well, that's a tough one, right? I mean, who's out there? I seen a, I thought it was real, but I guess it was probably a troll or something. But I thought it was actually a cool idea. He said, Alex Pereira versus, what's his name, Tom Aspinall? I saw that too, yeah. Yeah, I saw that too. I'm sure it was fake, but I was like,

do that's actually a pretty fucking cool idea for 300 main event. Yeah, it's definitely fake, but I actually thought, I think there was like people talking about that even before that rumor started to start. Like, people tried to sell the rumor. Like Pereira is just a badass who would do anything. And, you know, that would be kind of a fun matchup.

Yeah, I don't know. Like, I wish I had tremendous insight. Like, I know a lot of people talked about Leon and Bilau. Like, would that be a letdown? Now we're getting Connor saying, you know, 300 seals. it and Chandler saying it like, you know, like I always thought that was going to be the main event. I always assumed Connor and Chandler was getting to be in the main event. And when

Connor came out and said it was going to be June, I was like, why? Like, why wait? Like, that's a perfect 300 main event. So I don't know. Honestly, I wish I could give you some insight and, like, say, here's the insider scoop of what I know, but I don't. Like, I thought maybe it was going to be Dracus and Israel out of Sonia. I think maybe that's still in play. I don't think it's going to be prayer. I think they're saving prayer for U.O.C. 301, which is in Brazil. That's going to be down in Brazil, and I think they're going to save him for that. But yeah, like, who else is out there? So it's like, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, again, I'm still on the belief, you know, Connor's never fighting again.

We're never going to see him back in a cage again. You know, like you said, Pereira in Brazil makes perfect sense. God, like, I just, I don't know who else, right? I mean, Adasanya, you know, again, he said he's going to take off a few years maybe he's not but but still it's still coming on short time yeah it is we're coming up quick man like I said I've been booking interviews for

for 298 or 299 and looking at three hours like God it's really not that far away it's basically at this point like two months away basically like it's April 13th we're right almost the first week of February is almost over so we're basically two months away like that's eight weeks like you get training camp is at minimum 6 to 7 weeks

so you got to get moving here Yeah, so either somebody's already training and nothing's getting leaked or somebody's going to be on short notice. Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two. Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Roscoe Cadulian and the rest of the Phoenix Colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer. But a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprise his role as Rosco Cudulian

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You don't need a Nobel Prize to be a great investor. All you need is Betterment. Go to betterment.com to learn more. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-M-E-N-T.com. Investing involves risk, performance not guaranteed. Yeah, real quick, I want to get on this real quick before we get out of here, Matt, because over the last week,

maybe you saw it, Andy Foster from the California State Atlantic Commission, talked recently about submitting some rule changes for MMA. And a big part of this came from that Arnold Allen, Mousar, Evilov fight from UFC 290.7. where Arnold Allen was blasted with knees to the head and Mark Goddard paused the fight because they were illegal because Evelov had a hand down. And Andy Foster submitted these rules changes

to the ABC, the Association of Boxing Commissions, basically wanting to change the rules about what is a downfighter. Basically, the rule that he wants in place is that you have to have a hand and another body part down, a knee, a leg, your stomach, you have to be down into your elbow. You can't just be a hand down playing that game. on the mat. And then he also wants to do away with the 12 to 6 rule for elbows, which is one of the

dumbest rules in all mixed martial arts. Now, I explain this on Twitter and I'm going to explain it here now real quickly, Matt, and I know you know this, but even if they pass it through the ABC and they say, we're voting, it's a done deal, these are the new rules. You have to understand the commission still have to adopt those rules. That's the problem we're dealing with now, because even when they changed the rule a couple years ago to it had to be a weight-bearing hand, like you had to be putting weight on your hand to count as a downed opponent, that still didn't get passed by a lot of commissions. Matt, I want to get your perspective here because as a fighter,

that's the worst part about this because the rules depend on where you're fighting. Like, if you fight in Canada, the rule is different than if you fight in California. If you fight in California, the rule is different if you fight in New Jersey. So even if they passed this big sweeping change and everyone got so excited, Like, oh, they're going to allow 12 to six elbows and it's going to be this new downed fighter rule. They could pass all the rules they want. Nevada, California, Ohio, we still have to adopt these rules. So, like, don't get excited yet.

I don't want to put, like, a damper on, like, the excitement about this. But even if they pass the rule, it doesn't mean it's actually going to change everywhere. Correct. And, yeah, that's a, I mean, these are just antiquated rules, man. That's all it comes down to. These rules are garbage rules from. way back in the day that, like, you know me. I'm a still believer, like, you should just be able to kick a down opponent.

He can kick you when you're up, so why can't you kick him when he's down? And it should just be a fight anyway. So, you know, you should be able to need a down opponent. I think it's kind of silly that you can't do either of those, right? Like, I can, as long as you're standing up, I can, you know, knock you out as much as I want, right? But as soon as you go to the ground, I can't do it, right? And it's just kind of silly, in my opinion. But yeah, like you said, the states have to adopt them.

And we know how slow these bureaucrats are at adopting things. And it takes a long time. So for me, it's never really been an issue. You know, I just go to different commissions and, you know, I just fight. I mean, like, I don't even really think about it. Like, if it just happens, it happens. And I think most fighters probably think that way. Like, when we get in the cage, like, we're just there to fight.

Like, we don't have time. or mental energy to be focusing on what's the rule. You know, like, like, I don't have the mental energy to be thinking about if your hands down. Like, I'm trying to beat your ass. Like, I don't care if your hands down or not. Like, I'm in the middle of a fight for money in front of millions of people. Like, I don't, like, I don't have the middle of energy for this shit.

Just, let's just fight. And, you know, these rules are being made by people that have never fought. These rules are being made by people that have probably never. even probably didn't get spanked when they were kids. You know, like they're just, you know, bureaucrats and politicians or, you know, they don't understand the sport really at all. They probably don't even have blue belts in jiu-jitsu.

But like you said, Andy Foster, I'm glad that he actually put these rules out there. It's antiquated. Should have been done a long time ago. Let's get it done. Let's hope that the other states start picking up on it. I think in an ideal world, Matt, in my opinion, like we should have,

eye gouging should be illegal. You should not be able to stick your thumb in your opponent's eye to win a fight. No fish hooking where you literally just grab inside their mouth. That should be allowed. And obviously, growing shots. You shouldn't be able to go, you know, pull on,

blast someone in the nuts with your elbow when you're on the ground. Yeah. But to me, that's it. Like, that's the rules. Like, that should be the rules.

Like, I also don't mind the small joint manipulation. Yeah, the fingers. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. That's silly,

you know. Yeah. And that's what I like. I've said it before. Like, I want to start an organization where you can do all of those things. And it's just a fair fight between two people. I mean, I want to take away rounds and time limits and I want to get rid of the cage

and all these things. And I may actually do this one day. I'm kind of like that. You know, I might just end up doing it. But yeah, like you said, I mean, it should just be. That's what the, that's what the UFC was built on, right? It's a fair fight. They had to do some things to get it.

regulated and at this point like we have the data that we can bring to the bureaucrats and stuff you know and show them you know what's dangerous and what's not let's just have a fair fight between two people that's what everybody wants to see well it's funny to me because when you look at data like there was this big shocking revelation when people started doing data started doing research on

bare knuckle fighting and everyone's like god bear knuckle fighting so brutal it's really not brutal what it is is it just causes cuts so it looks brutal and i know we've had this discussion before matt um it happened with the sean strickland fight where everyone said oh man he's bleeding so badly it was a headbutt he didn't get cut he got head butted but everyone's like there's so much damage bleeding doesn't mean damage a black eye doesn't mean some people just bruise easier than others like you look at when nick and nadeez go through a fight it looks like they've walked through a fucking war zone covered in razor wire that's just how they look though like that's just how their bodies bruise up.

But they did this research about bare knuckle fighting, and they came to find out that there's a lesser concussion rate, there's lesser broken hands. Like the biggest difference between bare knuckle and MMA is cuts, lacerations. That's it. But like they say it's brutal. It's not brutal. It's just there's more cuts.

Like, yes, because you're hitting with a bare knuckle, you're going to slice open a eyebrow or whatever. But in terms of actual physical damage, what's being done, it's actually less than MMA. We got to get through this like it, I mean, like does a soccer

kick on a guy down, sure, does it look bad? Of course. But is it any worse than a guy getting fucking Mirro Crow copped in the head and he goes lopping over onto his leg? Like, remember when those guys, you fall over your legs, is that any really, is that worse? Like, is that really worse?

Right. And one thing people, the normal people may not realize is cuts don't even hurt. I've always been amazed that they call that damage. And I guess I get it because, you know, technically, if it were a real fight and I cut you open and blood got in your eyes, you know, I could end up winning the fight easier, right? Because I essentially blinded you because of the cut. But, you know, if you get it on this, if it's not affecting your vision, like you don't even know that you have it half the time. You know, I've had cuts.

I didn't even know that I had many, many times. Because you don't feel them. If it cuts, generally it's because it's not a blunt impact. to graze, and that's what actually cuts you. Yeah. And are there exceptions to that rule? Sure. We've seen the guys like an elbow coming down and club someone in the head,

and you see their reaction and the blood comes pouring out. We've seen that. But I would say that's still a rarer occasion than just getting caught with a glancing blow and you get a cut. I mean, even then, it's still, it's not the cut that's hurt. That hurts you. It's the fact that an elbow just landed on your forehead. But it's like...

The cut itself is just a... You know, it's just a, it doesn't hurt. Yeah. But how nice would it be to have like a universal set of rules? Like, everyone got so excited. And I love Andy Foster, by the way. I think he's, I think he's the gold standard of commissions in this business. But everyone gets excited.

I'm like, don't get excited. Like, I don't want to throw wet. I don't want to be the wet blanket at the party. But like, they could pass all the rules they want. It doesn't mean it's got, they passed rules four years ago to fix the whole downfighter rule. And guess what? We still have the problem because some commission still didn't adopt those rules. So they can change all the rules they want.

If Nevada decides we're not going to adapt those rules, then guess what? You still can't do the shit. Like you still can't put two hands down. It doesn't matter. Like you still can't knee the head of a grounded opponent. Like being celebrated all you want, but I'm just being the honest person here to tell you that like it can pass everything

they want doesn't mean it changes anything. And you have to go state by state to figure this out. Now, would it be nice to have a universe, like an actual universal set of rules? Amazing. But it'll never happen. Yeah. But like you said, you know, at least the change got started and hopefully they'll start to adopt it. Getting these things take time.

Let's see how long it takes. I mean, let's be honest. Like, they have new criteria for scoring. How many judges actually follow that criteria? Like, how many judges actually, actually follow the criteria of the real league of the actual league? That still doesn't happen. There's still guys who score takedowns. Like, it just, I mean, it happens.

Like, it's just the reality of the sport. Yeah, it's a tough one. You know, judging is always going to be a tough thing. And, you know, just some of them, you know, are just so blatant and obvious. And those are the ones that frustrated. So the ones like Strickland-DDP, they don't even frustrate me. I'm like, dude, you can't pick a winner in that fight. But, you know, there's other ones where you're just like, bro, what in the hell were you watching?

Like, what? Like, this is the stupid, you know what I mean? Like, even if guys are, you know, scoring takedowns in, You know, at least I get that. You know what I mean? Some of these, you just don't get. You just don't understand how they're possibly coming out with this. Yeah, there's definitely, there's plenty of those examples.

You were like, were you watching the fight? Were you just checking out the ring girls? Like, what was going on over there? Because I know you weren't watching what was actually happening in the cage. Yeah, that's exactly it, right? And with some of them, the unfortunate part is that they were watching what was happening in the cage. And they still got it that wrong. And that's, I'm like, I wish that you were.

watching the ring girls, but you actually watched that, and that was your decision after watching it, Caged side, very clearly hearing and seeing everything, you know, I could talk about some my own fights in that instance. And it's like, it's like, how did you not pick up on what's going on in here, bro? Yeah, it's amazing. But like I said, I'm not, when I say these things, mad, it sounds like, God, you're just offering us no hope. You're like the doom bringer. But I'm just like being realistic, like the rules. Would I like there to be universal rules? Amazing.

I would love that. Will it ever actually happen? Probably not. Like, you know, do I wish judging would get dramatically better in our sport? Yes. Do I think it's going to ever change to that degree? No, because we're humans. Like, people are going to make mistakes.

People are going to, just there's unconscious biases, whatever the case may be. So I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to rain on every, piss on everyone's parade and put you a piss in their Cheerios. but just being honest, like, you know, we got to be realistic about this stuff. That's exactly it, bro. Yeah. But, you know, it is still young sport is what we got to remember, right? So a lot of these things, you know, again, they take time. And hopefully over time, things keep getting better.

And I think this is a good start, you know, for the rules. I mean, these are, like I said, they're antiquated rules that should have been changed a long time ago. But, hey, somebody, thank you, Andy Foster, for at least getting this conversation. conversation started. The 12 to 6 elbow rule is the dumbest rule ever. It is the dumbest rule ever. Yeah, I wonder if he'll give John Jones's victory back. That's the one man. Everyone always brings

that is the dumbest rule ever. Like, how does that make any sense whatsoever that this kind of elbow is somehow more dangerous than literally clubbing a dude with like when you knocked out Diego Sanchez with an elbow? Would that have mattered if it came at a different angle? You knocked the fuck out of him. It didn't matter. It was 12 to 6 or not. It would have heard a lot less if it was 12 to 6, honestly. Exactly.

That's just, that's like one of those dumb rules. You know, someone was just like, that just looks bad. And they're like, okay, let's put it in the rules. Yeah, but it's like, what about 1159 to 559? Yeah. Well, that's what I said. Like the soccer kicks. Like, I understand they look bad.

But in reality, is the soccer kick any worse than when you head kick a dude and knock him out? Like, the damage is the same. It just looks worse. It doesn't mean the damage is worse. Actually, you're probably taking less damage in some of those cases. And if you just get straight, flush head kicked or knocked out on the feet, like, I don't know. I'm just like, some of those things, like you know it's all visual.

It's all based on visual. Like, oh, it looks bad. But is it actually bad? Is it actually doing more damage? Like, that's why they ban hill hooks in some jiu-jitsu tournaments because a hill hook will rip and shred your leg apart. I get that. I understand that. You know what I mean?

But does it look bad? arm apart. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. Like, it doesn't, like, if you watch a heel hook, it doesn't look as bad as like when you see that arm bar from over the weekend where the girl literally, like, you see your arm just like, collapse. A hill hook doesn't look that bad, but it does far more damage. Well, speaking on, yeah, I think if we brought soccer kicks in, I would wonder if there would be more heel hooks, right? Because, like, if you're going to try to heel hook me, like, obviously, I'm going to grab your leg and try to control it. You know, And if I'm going against, say, Gary Taunen, like, I'm not going to try to soccer kick him.

Like, I'm not getting my legs anywhere near his hands. Yeah. Like I said, it's just, it's all visual. And I think that's 90% of the dumb rules are the visuals of it. It doesn't mean it does more damage. Doesn't mean it's more your system more. Like, again, the heel hook is far more damaging. But that doesn't look bad.

So no one's like, we got to ban hill hooks from MMA. Like that. I love the visual personally. I remember when Shoguns. stepped on, was it Ricardo Arona's head a bunch of times? I was, or not Romano, it was the kickboxer guy. I forget his name right now. It's not coming to me, but I was like, dude, this is fucking awesome.

I remember when Vanderlae Silva soccer kick Yuki Kondo and I was like, Jesus Christ, he's just fucking teeing off. But again, it looks bad, but the reality is the damage is what I'm saying. Like the damage isn't any worse if you kick the guy on the feet. Yeah, and I mean, I can put my hands up. to block on the ground just as easy as I can on the feet. Yeah, it's just, yeah, it's all visual.

I think you would promote more heel hooking because, you know, guys are going to start trying to step on their faces. They're going to try to swing for soccer kicks. And then the Hussamar Pilaras is, the Gary Bonnins. They're going to eat that shit up. Yeah, you never know. Well, it would be nice. Like I said, I'm just warning people.

It'll probably never happen. But it would be nice to have a universal rule set. I just don't think it's ever going to happen. I've seen it too many times people get into. excited about stuff. Like, we're going to, we're going to change the 12 to 6 rule. I've heard that story for a decade and it still hasn't changed everywhere. Just like the down fighter thing. You go to, you go to Toronto. It's a different rule to when you're in Nevada. And it's a different rule than when you're in Texas. And so, again,

that's just maybe that's the pessimist in me. But, yeah, I'm just being realistic. So, you know, sorry. Get optimistic, bro. Cups half full. Let's go. All right. That's our show this week, Matt. What do you get going on? Where can people check you out at? We'll be back. next week we're going to do our UFC 298 preview next week. So I should get into some more fights next week with the pay-per-view next week. But what else? Where can people check out what you've got going on?

You know, I'm the immortal social on Instagram, Twitter, at the Immortal Coffee. You check out my creatine gummies at try underscore create. And if you want to get the best sonnas there are available at Redwood Outdoor CO. Let's go. And I saw you doing the sauna, the santa. the sauna ice bath routine. I saw that on that. It was an Instagram. I saw that.

Yeah, man. It's the best, bro. Just full on torturing yourself. It's awesome. All right, folks. That's our show for this week. We'll be back next week with another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider. Make sure you check us on all your favorite podcast, platforms, Apple Podcasts,

and, of course, over on Spotify and the best website in the world, MMAFighting.com. For Matt Brown, I'm Damon Martin. We'll see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the rider. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then. Network. Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first,

there, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes.