MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown REACTS to Fight Fixing Allegations Plus UFC 322 Preview, Picks and Predictions

Episode Date: November 11, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to the fight-fixing allegations that happened after UFC Vegas 110 with the FBI now investigating a situation involving Isaac Dulgarian. We’ll also look ahead at UFC 322 and the main event between Jack Della Maddalena and Islam Makhachev, the key to victory for both of them and where Makhachev would rank among the all-time greats if he’s able to become a two-division champion. All this and more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The Downloaded 2. Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Welcome back to the fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown, and we have finally arrived, Matt. It is UFC 322 week. It feels like we had to go through an awful lot of not great events to get here. But here we are.

Finally arrive at USC 32, Islam Ocatchev against Jack Della Madelana, Valentina Shepchenko against Jangway Lee, Sean Brady, Michael Morales, Benile Darius, Benoit Saint-Dine. It's a good card, man. It's a good pay-per-view. So we're back on track with a good show. Yeah, excited too.

man like what great matchups just from top to bottom here unbelievable before we get to uh before we get to 322 that's going to be the bulk of our show just so everyone knows but i did want to bring this up because like just in terms of timing we did our show last week record on sunday and in monday we started seeing a lot of the allegations and stuff coming out of the previous ufc show with a kid named isaac delgarian odds on his fight shifted dramatically uh he ended up losing in the first round after he was like an overwhelming like three to one favorite ends up losing in the first round. Now we know there's actually an FBI investigation into this whole thing. Allegations, by the way, no one's guilty. No one's gone to prison or anything crazy like

that. So I want to make sure allegations, we're not condemning anyone just yet. Although Dana White did say it doesn't look good, quote unquote, for him. FBI's involved. And obviously this is coming on the hills of what happened a couple years ago with the whole James Krause thing with Derek Minner and everything. And I know Dana has come out and said, like, you know, this is not a widespread problem. You know, this is a couple instances. It's obviously a big deal, but we're not, you know, this is not something we deal with on a daily basis. And also, like, this is going on right now. I'm sure maybe you just seen, like, in the periphery, Matt,

like the NBA's got a big scandal going on right now when people getting arrested left and right for these, like, you know, betting, gambling, fight, fix, or a game fixing scandals and stuff like this. So this is nothing just specific to the UFC, but I know we talked about it with the James Krause thing. I'm curious, Matt, because you're a fighter, you've been around. Like, everyone, like, because Dana said, like, all these people are coming out and saying, I've been approached.

He's like, if you've been approached, you should have told us. You should have come to tell somebody about that. Matt, in your career, like, we've heard stories for our buddy, Mike Coleman. He fought in pride. Like, we know some stories in that time period. But, like, this isn't necessarily new, but it is really bad when it happens. Yeah, which is crazy to me. Like, because, I mean, I was in the UFC for 16 years.

I was never approached by anybody. I never heard a single thing about it. The funny, kind of funny thing is, like, some of the guys that, or many guys that I've hung around with kind of the conspiracy theorist types where you're not really necessarily taking everything you kind of taking everything they say with the grain of salt

and they'd be like well they're doing this for the gambling you know for instance like the UFCPI when they built that there's a lot of people that were like they're like bro they want to get your info so they can gamble and they're like you know and then you know they'd make these weird fights or whatever and they'd be like bro that you know the the fucking they you know whoever they are like

them motherfuckers are just they're gambling on this shit bro like they're just making money on it you know and like we're all just we're all just dogs fighting here man they're you know they're all gambling on us and it was yeah so i find it pretty interesting and um but i don't you know i just i know so little about it but it's to me it's kind of one of those things where where you know you they got gambling advertised all over the UFC right they're they they do it in casinos um Um, it's, it's, you know, the type of people involved in the sport, like, I don't, it's kind of one of those things like you can't play and shit and expect to not get dirty, right? Like, like it's, it's just, and it's just sports at general, right? Like, doesn't that just happen? And, you know, as at least, uh, you know, at minimum, it's a, it's a risk of any sport in the world that this is going to happen. And I think if you're just not proactive about it, you know, the UFC, if they're not proactive about it, about stopping it, like, it's guaranteed to happen.

Well, here's the thing. So two things I want to bring up. I know a lot of people have said, like, this is what happens when you don't pay your fighters. They're willing to take this kind of risk. And I'm not saying it doesn't, but like, I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm just saying that, I mean, this is a huge scandal right now in the NBA. and NBA players make 10 times what UFC fighters make, like the average UFC fighter.

Like you're guaranteed minimums in NBA. And some of the guys being named are like not, and there's now a baseball one too. I saw it today. Like a couple people are getting arrested for baseball. So I'm not saying it can't be a money thing, but I'm saying it's not only a money thing because guys who are making guaranteed millions

in the NBA and Major League Baseball are still doing this. So like it's not just about the money. Like it's not just about like everyone, if you have a chance, If you're a millionaire and you want to become a multi-millionaire, you take that risk. If you're making $10,000 and you'd have a chance to make $100,000 on something like this, I'm just saying, like, money is not the only driving factor because when you look at, like you said, MLB guys, they make plenty of money, and so do the NBA guys.

Why are they doing it? Because everyone wants more money. I don't care who you are. Like, you know, Elon Musk is the richest man in the world. He now got a package where he's a trillionaire. Does he need to be a trillionaire by any measure of life? Do you need a trillion dollars? No.

Nobody needs a trillion dollars. But you want, that's what I'm saying. We all want it, though. So, like, I'm not, I'm just pointing. I'm not defending the UFC. I'm just saying, like, that argument doesn't hold as much water with me when you see it happening in other major sports. Guys, where they are making millions of dollars, and they're still doing it.

And you know, that that brings a point. I watch, because I don't know nothing about all this stuff. I don't even gamble or anything. I mean, I play the first. fucking slots at the casino because I don't know how to gamble you know but but uh you know i was watching the thing with chel sonn earlier that his take on this whole thing and i don't know you know you got to take everything he says you know it's not gold right everything he says um so i don't know how factual everything you're saying but but one thing he said was uh you know um

to be able to place a seventy thousand dollar bet on an isaac dalgarian would is not even to happen. And I could obviously, I could see where that would raise some flags, right? On a undercard, was it probably an apex card? I'm guessing. Yeah. Yeah, at the apex. And he's like, hey, I'm put $70,000. It was like, you know, either you know the guy well or, you know, there's something going on, right? Especially when it's a prop bet too, right? He's going to win in the first round or some shit. So, but, but yeah, I can see where, you know, that amount of money, I can see where an Isaac Dargarian would be like, yeah, it's a, you know, it's a money thing. You know, maybe he'll come out and confess, be like, bro, I just need the money, whatever.

Fuck off. It's in crypto now. You ain't getting it. It's the fuck off. But when you're talking about the MLB and the NBA, what kind of money are we talking, though? Right? I mean, are they putting $10 million bets? And because I don't know, I don't know how all this works.

I don't know where can you place these kind of bets. And, you know, Chale's saying, like, you can't place a $70,000 bet. at a casino in Vegas. So you need to explain this more to me if you have any knowledge here. Well, no, and Shell does make a point. You know, they do limit some betting on certain things. You know what I mean? Like, you know, they will limit how much you could bet on a certain prop or something like that.

They will limit that kind of stuff. But, I mean, I think when you get into, like, UFC stuff, like, like, who, like, if you, if you look at, like, if you've got record of undercar prelimb fighters and the average amount of bets going on those guys. Maybe it's two grand, a fight, or 10, you know, I'm talking about like, you know, one bet at a time. Like one, the biggest bet is like two grand or five grand or whatever. That's the average. And then suddenly someone that has a $100,000 bet, you're going to be like, hold on now. Like, something suspicious. So yeah, like that raises red flags. And here's my thing about it. So Chale's not wrong. Like, you know, they do have like certain places.

They won't take bets on that. Some places don't take bets on certain fights. Like they just only, you know, they only put up a couple of the fights. They won't put up the whole cart because they don't feel comfortable knowing the odds because again you remember all these sports books want to make money they're not there for you they're there to make money and if they don't feel if they don't feel they're going to be able to make money of isa d'algarian versus whoever they're not even going to put that fight up because they don't feel confident that it's worth risking money on uh but here's the other thing about that and this goes to the heart of like the guys who are supposedly doing it you don't hide this stuff like obviously

like if you're if somebody's putting the kind of wagers on a fight that it's shifting the betting lines and that's a lot of money right like you i know we're talking like a hundred thousand dollar bets or 70 thousand dollars or whatever or maybe to do a hundred 10 thousand dollars whatever it is whatever ridiculous amount of money is getting put on there to shift the betting lines you got to realize how hard that is like when you see odds come out for a fight and over the course like three months you'll see the odds shift a little bit but like and that's like a ton of money coming in over like you know with is a Mokachev and Jack Delam Adelaide Lane.

Maybe it opened it, Islam being a minus 200 favorite. Maybe by fight time it's minus 150. That's three months of betting to get it to that point, right? That's a lot of money. A lot of people say, I'm going to bet Jack is the underdog, and so it brings down the line a little bit. But when you're talking about, quote, unquote, fight fixing, and you're saying this guy's going to take a dive,

he's injured, whatever the case would be. Like, it was with Derek Minner. He was injured going into the fight. Obviously, his coach knew, other people knew, and the word got out there, and people started putting money down on it. Obviously, his teammate, Jeff Molina did. James Krause clearly had something to do with it.

That's what happened. He was injured. They knew about it, but they put him out there anyways, knowing he was going to lose. But the problem is, and this goes to any sport, like, you can't keep this shit a secret. Like, A, if people start betting this kind of money on that, people are going to find out, like they did. Even Isaac D'Agary, an undercard random prelim fighter, they found out. But also, like, if your coach or your teammate or your mom, and dad, somebody's betting on you to lose or whatever.

Like, that's stuff, you're, you can't hide this shit. Like, you know, like, you can't, you can't, like, the risk is never worth to reward in these situations. Like, I just don't get it. Like, you think about, like, Pete Rose, iconic baseball player, literally lost his entire legacy because of gambling on, on games. And that wasn't, and his thing was like, he, he said he never gambled on the reds to lose, but I don't, that's neither here nor there.

Like, you weren't allowed to gamble in games you were managing. That just raises a huge red flag. This is literally saying, I'm going into a fight, injured, compromise. I'm going to lose so bet money on the other guy. At least I'll make some money off of that. That's going to get out there. Someone's going to, like, you're never going to be able to hold on to that forever. Like, it already happened with the James Cross situation.

Like Jeff Molina, a teammate, bet money against his teammate. I mean, who's not going to find out? I just don't understand the risk versus reward of this. I get it in terms of like the money thing. And like I said, I don't care whether you're making a million dollars. you're making $10,000, everyone wants more money. I get that part of it.

But like the risk of this, because now Isaac Dolgarian, he's already out of the UFC, here you get released. And now the FBI's investigating this. Your career's basically over. Like, you've just basically said, I'm done fighting because who's going to want to promote this guy?

Well, I can also see, I don't know Isaac Dalgarian or his record or anything about him. But, I mean, I can see if you're, again, a prelim guy at the UFC apex, and you're making what five and five 10 and 10 i don't know 20 and whatever and some guy comes and says i'll give you a hundred k to lose you know maybe you're already on lose i don't know you know uh UFC's a tough game maybe maybe somewhere in your soul you're like you know hey i came here to make money i'm not trying to be a champion you're not going to be a champion you know who you are or something

right and you're like i'll take that money and and walk where i can go win another fight and come back you know and and the fact is um i was just on dj's podcast the other day mighty mouse and uh we were we're talking about this too i said look he's a you're a fighter just like me dj we all have a price on our head every single one of us maybe maybe isaac dog garin's price was 50k if if uh jake paul comes to me and says hey i'll give you a billion dollars to fight me but you got to lose you think i'm going to say no you know i mean mike tyson was kind of accused jake paul of that already right didn't he accused jake paul of basically giving him money to lose he he didn't really come out and say it but he kind of said it like we all got a price on her head

that's yeah i guess that's guaranteed you know it's just a matter of like you know think of the situation like maybe izig dalgarian you know maybe he just got maybe his wife left him the week before the fight right and he's like fuck i'm about i'm fucked anyway let's go ahead and bet money to lose. You know what I mean? Like, we don't know the situation, but I'm just saying it's not like so far. What you're talking about here is a bunch of people that committed their lives to fighting in a cage for money. Right. I don't think, you know, we can't place normal standards and morals and ethics and, and shit on this, you know, like, like these aren't you know, Harvard graduates that are like, you know, going out into the world and exploring

the beautiful world of neuroscience or something shit right like this is these are motherfuckers that most most the vast majority of motherfuckers to do this stuff is like it's because there's some shit wrong with us right so so like it's just a is a i think i think it's hard to kind of place that mainstream mindset on you know when the we talk about the amount of money someone like him I don't get, I don't know Isaac Dargarian but you know, the majority of these guys it could be an amount of money like 100K or 70K or so

they never seen that in their life they never imagine, never dream they would have that kind of money and it's okay, do I go fight and hard as I can and beg Dana for 50K or do I go take the easy 70, whatever the fuck it was and chill out and throw this

for this guy. Yeah, it just to me, I mean, not wrong in terms of what you're saying. I just think like the risk versus reward situations like this like but but that's what I'm saying you're you're looking at it logically like a risk versus reward now again I don't know his situation what is his you know his risk is obviously you know his career is over but it is what's his reward 20k and maybe you know again if he doesn't believe in himself or doesn't I actually think he's got a shot at a real championship or something you know what's his peak reward 70k to fight

you know what I mean that now he's got work his ass off for this for the next five 10 years or whatever you know I peaked out in my career like what what 150 160 something like that you know my best payday was my last one I think got the bonus and got like 350k yeah yeah 350 it's like uh you know does he want to work 15 years to get that or get it today what's crazy is if you remember back before the james krauss thing all happened like fighters used to routinely go on podcasts and stuff until like their family was betting money on them and they were betting money and like gambling could become almost like part of the business now it's just like anything else like you know you're saying like i tell

everyone to bet on me because i'm going to win and and my family make good money or you know you hear those stories all the time guys used to come on my show all the time interview and you're like yeah my mom and dad or my brother made a ton of money because he bet on me to win and I pulled it off I told people to bet on me I told people to you a wager on me done it myself yep yeah so like which is which is kind of funny not to interrupt but it's kind of funny we can tell them bet on us to win and we go win and everything's cool we can't say bet on me to lose and it's not cool right yeah no but that and that's what I'm saying like how normal it was like it was so normal like I could be like I told everyone to bet on me great man like you know because you tried to win

that's the difference, that's a distinction when you're when you're basically saying, bet on me to lose. You know, you have a lot more. You don't have a guarantee you're going to win, but you can guarantee you're going to lose. Yeah, fair, fair. I used to have this one guy, man,

he was this Uber wealthy guy, and he was a huge alcoholic, and he used to get drunk all the time and call me during training camp, and I don't know, he was real entertaining, so I would just take the call. And I'm at the end of almost every call back.

How much should I gamble on you? Because I know you're going to be, this motherfucker's ass and I'm like bro you can't put that kind of pressure on me like I'm like just put your house on me you know your your million dollar home

in the Hamptons like put it on me whatever yeah but it's different when you're like trying to win when you're trying to lose like you can guarantee you're going to lose you can guarantee you're going to win but I just think it's just such a crazy thing because like especially in this sport

like you think about like now it's happening in baseball it's happening in basketball and those are like it or not they're much bigger sports than UFC is, you know what I mean? And it's like... Yeah, but I mean, you just think about like, you know, it just, I just, I get it.

I understand what you're saying. I totally understand what you're saying, but it's just like mind-boggling because it's like the old, like, you know, if two of us know, the only way that secret doesn't come out if one of us is dead. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's always going to come out.

If you told two people, those two people are probably told two more people, two more people, told four more people. It always comes out. And if people are betting $70,000 on you, or against you, and you've never had that kind of bet on you before, it's going to raise red flags. I just, like, I think, and I think you're right.

Like, they're not thinking down the road. They're thinking about the immediate financial gain. Like, you're going to give me $50,000. I'm already injured. I'm probably not going to win anyways. So I'll make an extra $50K on top of my $10,000. I get what you're saying. But it's like the risk of that and knowing that chances are it's going to come out

because the only way they're going to be able to pay you $50K is they make $250K. How are they going to make $250K? well, they're going to bet $200,000 or whatever ridiculous amount of money on your opponent who never gets $200,000 bets on him. You know what I mean? So it's just like, look at the big picture. Like, if this was Islam McAchev, you don't understand because he's the main event. He's in the title fight.

There's going to be millions upon millions of dollars bet on Islam McAchev or Jackdella and Madalena. There's not that kind of money being bet on Isaac Dolgarian or Derek Minner or these, like, I just, I don't know. That's my thought. I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm just saying, like, you got to look at the big picture. But as you said, a lot of fighters aren't looking at the big picture. No, I'm sure they're not, man. You know, when you're talking about, again, the people's situations and, you know,

there's a million fighters and there's a million situations that they're dealing with. And look, you catch that guy on the right day when, you know, he needs that money. And, you know, look, most of our souls are for sale as fighters, right? We used to joke all the time, you know, different fighters where we basically just say, like we're strippers you know like we're we're just selling our souls you know to go out there and entertain people for money so it's really not different than stripping so yeah i don't know i don't think it's it just not as far-fetched i think is a lot of people are making it out to be it doesn't sound out of the ordinary to me at all um i'm surprised that it's actually

taken this long for it to come to light um or you know maybe it's more prevalent than i even thought it was. I thought there was probably, you know, things going on behind the scenes for a long time. But it wasn't, but not with the fighters, though. You know, I never thought that there was actual fighters that would be taking a dive. But when you think about it, I mean, it makes sense, right? You know, it makes sense that it could work out this way. And it's unfortunate, but, you know, that's the way sports are. And it's going to, you know, FBI's got a big job in front of them to try to put all the pieces together and all the different sports and catch all these people. I'm just curious, what kind of money are we talking about in basketball and baseball?

I mean, these guys got to be getting a lot of money to sell out. And you also got to remember, like, when Pete, I don't know, like, if it's mobsters or if it's, you know, whoever it is, like, whoever's approaching these guys. Like, you got to look, it's just like anything else. And I'm not, I'm not insulting Isaac Delgarian if he actually did this. But like, you pray upon the guy you think you could get. You don't pray upon the guy you don't think he could get it. Like, I would guarantee you because, like, Islam Akachev is a Muslim, a devout Muslim gambling is not allowed in their religion.

And he's just all about, you know, I mean, you'd be a moron to approach Islam Akachov and say, hey, man, I got a gambling. You know, a guy who's literally his entire religion is against the idea of gambling. I'm quite sure you're not going to talk him into throwing a fight to do it. Me and Mighty Mouse were talking about this. And he was like, I've never been approached. I was like, I've never been approached. And I said, man, well, I think it's a type of. people that we are they probably look at us or like okay don't don't bring it to that guy he's

going to be the snitch or he's going to be the yeah but maybe i think like you said i'm not justifying it but i'm saying like you said maybe i's just found he's getting a divorce or maybe his you know maybe his wife left him and he took the kid or something you know you hear guys talk all the time about like uh uh battles you know custody battles things like that they bring it up and they put it they saw it they saw an opportunity and they're like hey he's going to this we don't hear everything like we don't hear everything's going on with the fighter's life and so So, yeah, you're right. But they look at Matt Brown.

They're like, yeah, Matt's not going to. Like, we couldn't, this was going to go back. Like, we approached Matt Brown or Demetri's Johnson or certain guys. But I just don't guarantee some random dude on a prelim. And they hear about maybe he's got an injury, he's going to a divorce. I'm just saying, like, you're probably right. Like, it probably happens more often than you want. But you said that you're doing.

They know that they can't afford me, basically. Again, we all got a price on our heads, bro. Guaranteed, like, you do, you know, every one of us. Islam would do it for the right amount of money, most likely. You never know with some of the religious people. Yeah, but almost everyone. They got a price on their head. Yeah.

No, you're right. You're right. You're absolutely right. You know, I've joked on this show before. I was like, you pay me enough money. I'll fight Francis and Gondon. Now, there's a bet you guarantee you're going to win because I'm going to lose badly. But I'll take a punch in the head from Francis and Gano for a few million.

Like, you know. You got a price for your CTE? I got a price for being in the hospital for six months knowing I'm going to come out and be a multimillion. Aaron, I can handle that. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. There's a price for just about everything for just about everyone. Yeah. I mean, you said it best, too.

You know, the Islams of the world, you know, you just don't really even try to approach them with that stuff, right, when they're, like, religious like that and stuff. But, but, I mean, look at, look at the demeanor and personality, the character of your standard MMA fighter, you know, I mean, put two and two. two together, right? I mean, or even, even not just a May fighter, but, you know, MA fighters, boxers, kind of in the same grouping, but the majority of athletes, period. You know, and you also, and you also got to remember the difference with MMA and boxing is their individual sports. You're not asking a guy to throw a team. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I'd imagine it's probably a lot harder in like a team sport, you know what I mean? Because like one player can't always predict the outcome of a game. You know what I mean? Like one, even if you don't play, like LeBron, James. James, who is, like, the biggest basketball star in the world. He's not playing right now, and their Lakers are still winning. Like, they're still good without him. You can't guarantee just because he's not there that they're going to lose. But fighting, you've got one guy.

That's it. That's it. You know, one guy. If he just goes in there and he's like, oh, I got caught in a rear naked choke. You know, like, there's no team aspect there. So, because, I mean, you've heard doing it. I mean, there are allegations for boxing for years of, like, fight fixing and shit like that. So, and we know for a fact there was allegations of fight fixing in pride and other places like

that. So this is nothing new. It's just, you know, when it hits, I just, I don't think it's, I don't think it's, I don't think, like, I think, like, as much as we want to say, like, criminals are dumb and a lot of criminals are dumb. They're not dumb enough to be, like, approaching Islam or guys like they know they're not going to get. You know, they're approaching it. You know, it really reminds me of, like, the whole steroid debacle that in May and all sports have always dealt with. And it's like, you know, you're trying to beat something that is, it's a most inherent to the nature of the sport itself and yeah you know i don't know how they ever beat this as we said like i kind of you know i have some sympathy for the fbi right now because i don't know how they dig up all these things and um i don't know how they they get to the bottom of it um you know somebody's going to be a snitch most likely somebody's going to be the rat you know and they better they're going to need witness protection and right i mean if your if your option is snitching you're going to prison for 10 years you're probably going to snitch like you're probably going to be like you know what my coach told me to do this my manager told me you're going to name every name you can possibly

name because no one wants to go to federal prison for a decade or whatever so yeah exactly exactly somebody's going to be the rat and those are again they're going to need witness protection yeah it's a brutal sport man there's a lot of brutal people in this sport i said just look at the character and the demeanor of the type of people to get involved with this sport these aren't people that you want to be ratting on. Yeah, when you think about, like, just in the two years since that or three years since that happened with the whole James Krausling, like, he lost his gym, he lost his business. He doesn't, I mean, I think he's in real estate now or something, but, like,

there's still an investigation ongoing. Like, there's still a chance he gets charged with, like, criminal charges in that. What is the, you know, someone told me he just bought a new house the other day. They said they, you know, see some posts about it. He's doing, he's doing real estate is what he's doing, like, in his actual, like, He's like sell, and I think he was doing that during his career as well. He was, yeah. Yeah, I talked to him about that.

Yeah, I talked to him some about that. And that's where the best gamers in the world are, man, like real estate. I mean, God, some of the people, there's some of the greatest people that I met doing real estate. And there's some of the most low-life pieces of shit on this planet that do real estate. Yeah. So, well, like I said, we'll see how this all plays out. Like I said, it's never good, though. Just for the vanity of the sport, it's not good when your biggest organization.

that just signed a $7.7 billion deal is like, oh, yeah, we got an FBI investigation on going for fight fixing. But, I mean, like, it's almost like cloud cover right now because you've got Major League Baseball people getting arrested. You got NBA people getting arrested. Like, UFC is like the lowest rung in the ladder of people paying attention to it right now

because those are bigger sports. There are more people paying attention to those. And so, yeah, so Isaac DelGerry is going to kind of slip under the media. It wasn't, you know, Alex Pereira selling out either, right? If it was something like that, It would be getting the same attention, I think. 100%. Yeah, 100% agree.

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Volkswagen is helping people discover new turfs and new ways to play the beautiful game right here in the U.S. From deaf and power wheelchair soccer to beach and futsal, Volkswagen is actively supporting all the communities and teams within the U.S. soccer ecosystem. They're supporting talent from across the U.S. soccer extended national teams and are focused on helping to give these less widely known forms of soccer a platform moving forward. From the pitch to the sand and everything in between, welcome to our turf. Matt, this weekend, I mentioned, of course, UFC 322 massive card, Islam Ocatchev going up to 1-70,

taken on Jack Del and Madalina. Now, I'll be honest, I have not talked to Islam, but I did talk to Jack a couple days ago. Seems rear and ready to go. He's obviously coming into this fight as a bit of an underdog defending his title for the first time. And it's funny, I mentioned to him, you remember when Islam was getting matched up with Ilya, and the reason why Islam didn't want to fight Ili, or he just kind of was hesitant. to fight Ilya was like I don't want to beat him and then everyone comes out and says I beat up a featherweight you know let him get a fight it lightweight prove himself and

then I'll fight him and then you know it's a legit fight I brought that up to Jack I said are you afraid you won't get credit if you go out and beat Islam Akachev on Saturday are you afraid people won't give you credit they'll say oh you beat a lightweight and Jack actually said no I want that narrative he's like I want people to say I beat up a lightweight and I send him packing I want people to say he doesn't belong at Walter Wade I want people to know he didn't belong in this division, so I want to send him put him back in his place. I was like, that's actually a pretty smart way to look at it. So, what do you

make in this matchup, Matt? Because on paper you look at Islam, his wrestling, his grappling, his top notch. He's a number one, number two pound for pound in the world for the past couple years, ferocious. But anytime you go up in the division, like, there's no guarantees. Like, and Jack's a big, long, strong welterweight.

Yeah, man. I watched a lot of tape on both those guys this week, and I don't think it ended up really telling me much of anything. I think I learned a lot watching them both because they're both such highly skilled fighters. I was like, man, I need to be watching more tape and learning from these types of guys because, boy, well, they're fantastic fighters. I think it's just really hard not to lean towards Islam finding a takedown at some point. And, you know, it's hard to imagine Jack being able

to survive Islam, you know, you know, taking them down probably multiple. times right like i don't i don't know i think he might be able to survive one but man when islam gets you down it is just a disaster for his opponents you know anyone who submits charles olivera i mean you got like you got you got you got to put some respect on that name right uh but man jack does so many things good so many high level things uh you could tell he's he's trained very well against grapplers the guys that want to take him down and and can perform the same strikers too but he does such good things against a grappling style you know i think it's going to be a harder fight for islam than yeah i originally thought you know what looking at this matchup i kind

of thought islam would have a great not easy but i was like you know this definitely like leans towards Islam but i'll tell you what man after watching jack i think it's going to be a harder road for Islam than I thought it would be and I think what it's going to come down to me is Islam can Islam withstand that that hardship that is going to have to go through because he hasn't went through a lot of hardship in his career I mean he's had some hard fights like the sarucan fight I think was probably one of the harder ones you know it was a close fight but he hasn't had you know Volcanowski gave a run he's had some close ones but not really like you know Like when I watch Jack and Balaul, like Bala kept going through, you know, absolute.

I think if it went another round or two, I think Bala probably could have pulled that off, right? Because, you know, he's just a machine that keeps going. I don't know if Islam has that in him. Because the only reason I say that, like, you know, I believe he probably does. And that's why I'm going to lean towards him. But we haven't seen him have to do it. And he's not used to having to do it. so that that that that's what go ahead you remember you remember the narrative years ago about john jones when he was so dominant like what happens when he runs into somebody that doesn't just roll over and play dead for him and we saw it in augustison fight now to his credit he can't well you can't but i'm saying i mean it was a close fight he came through right like he showed like he can't now we consider to say all you know he didn't train he did whatever you know and he learned learned his lesson okay let's just set that aside i'm i'm a big ohio state football fan

And they're killing it right now, number one team in the country. Yeah. But the biggest criticism I keep hearing from fans of other teams is like, well, they haven't really faced any adversity. Like, they keep blowing people out and killing people. And I'm like, yeah, I get it. Because, like, what happens when, like, maybe they throw an interception or they're down two touchdowns? Can they come back? Can they battle through that adversity?

And, you know, like, you see some teams are just so good. They just front run and just roll over everybody. They never really have to face that adversity. That could be Islam Akachev here. He's so good. that he doesn't need to worry about adversity because he just doesn't put himself into this position. You could argue, Kabib never, I mean,

he kind of had it early on with like the one fight, whoever I care of who he had with the takedowns. It was like a closer fight. Al-A-Quinta. He had a couple of moments, but like, there was never a moment where, like, or Glees and Teva. Glees and Teva, that's the one I was thinking of,

where he stopped some takedowns. Like, that was a closer fight, but it wasn't like he was, he wasn't like he almost got beat. Like, we're talking about round scoring. Like, he never really got beat up. He just got takedown stuffed and things like that. But Kibibibu never dealt with that, really, and he was phenomenal. Now, obviously, we have our criticism.

Well, not really criticism. We just got out too early so we don't know what he could have been. Maybe he would have still been undefeated right now. We have no idea. So maybe Islam's that. Maybe he is that front runner where he's just never going to deal with that. And it's possible. I mean, he could be.

He could just be that good. But I agree with you. Like what happens if he goes to that taked down and gets stuffed? What happens if he gets a take down and Jack gets right back up? like what happened with Bilal. Like he got up against Bilal. He stopped Bilal taking him down. And then it's like, oh, well, what are you going to do?

Because I think if Islam gets to fight to the ground, he is so aggressive on the ground. It's, like, hard to survive because he's not just going down there to control you. He's not just going down there to hold you down. He's advancing, hurting you, and trying to put you away, submit you or put you away. Like, he is a very aggressive ground fighter because he doesn't fear if you escape him, because he'll get you right back down in that position again. He doesn't fear that. but like it or not

I mean you're going up and wait you know like Islam probably walks around like 180 I don't know I'm making that number up like he cuts to 155 he probably walks around like 180 give or take and maybe now he's walking around like 190 jack has walked around at 190 200 pounds probably for his entire career he's a weltsweight

it's a legit welterweight and he's a big long strong guy now you can look at like the gilbert burns where he got taken down a bunch and you know but he survived on the ground gilbert burs and gilbert burs is an incredible grappler he did very well, tired of him out and knocked him out in the third round. So I'm just saying, like, I don't think this is as much of a mismatch as a lot of people are making it out to be like, Islam's just going to go in there and run through Jack Della

Madalena. I just don't think that's going to happen. Now, will he win? Am I picking him to win? Probably. Because Islam is just so damn good. It is just hard to pick against a guy that is that talented and that dominant. But you can't not have questions.

Like, how is he going to adapt to that? How is he going to deal with the size difference to length? I mean, I think Jack has like a three or four inch reach advantage on him. not something he's really dealt with in a while. Yeah, well, what I add to that, too, is, you know, the thing with Islam is he's very patient and strategic and, and very tactical with everything that he does. And, you know, he'll, he's an opportunist, is what I call him, right? Like, he doesn't kind of really force things.

Like, he takes what you give him. And, I mean, and he'll dominate with what you give him. But he takes what you. you give them for the most part. And that's where I could see this being a least a later round fight because like Jack doesn't give up much. Like he's really good at staying clean and technical and smooth and not leaving big holes in his game. But it only takes, you know, a small hole for Islam to dive through that. You know, if you give Islam an inch, he's going to take a mile. And that's the the problem that Jack has here is he's got to be able to do that for five rounds I think but but again

the question that I have to ask again is you know can Islam take it because I do the way that I see it in my head playing out I mean Lord MMA Lord knows right this is all just like hypothetical prediction that you know don't take it for you know facts or anything but you know I could see Jack having a lot of success in the first round or two, and then Islam's going to start finding his ways to get in. And then it's like, but can he deal with those first two rounds and still be strategic and tactical? I think that's kind of what it comes down to. And I think he can push through it, right? You know, Jack's not a big knockout guy. You know, I mean, he's got some knockouts, but he's not, you know, a sit down on his punch and swing for the fences power

guy you know he's kind of a pick you apart type more or less right so it's going to be yeah i think he'll be able to pick Islam apart on the feet i don't see Islam being able to strike with them i think that's a um going to be a huge challenge for Islam to deal with but if jack can do that and not you know expose any of those uh big holes for Islam to take that opportunity on uh then he can make it at least to the later rounds where if his cardio can hold up, I think he's got a good shot. You know, and for Islam, he's going to have to, most likely, you know, I think he's going to have to deal with that for the first round or two.

You know, he's going to have to deal with getting punched in the face a bunch. And if he can work through that, stay strategic and tactical and wait for that opening, then I think it would be, it'll be, it'll serve him well. You know, it's funny because when Bilal became champion, like, I'll be honest, like, I've pick Bilau to beat Jack. I thought Bilau was just the gas tank, the cardio, the wrestling, all that kind of stuff. And I thought it's going to take a guy who can counter that. We thought Sean Brady,

he beat Sean Brady, good for him, but we're like maybe a Shavkat, a guy who can counter that wrestling, can deal with that wrestling. It's good grappling on his own. Can deal with that. And like, I would say the same thing here in theory. Like, if Islam becomes champion, like, I would have to look at like, you know, like a Sean Brady who's got a fight on this card against Michael Morales.

That's certainly not a sure thing he's going to win. Where are you looking like a, you know, because Kamar Uspin looked incredible against walking but like he he kind of reinvented himself kamar us was a damn good wrestler and he's a big ass welterweight like that would be a guy I'd be like really intrigued like I don't know man like that might be a really hard fight for Islam because kamar was like that's a big that's a big dude and he's a really

good wrestler and he looked great like he really did reinvent himself in that fight with walking buckley where he's just like like oh yeah I lost a couple of fights to leon edwards well let's slow down you know kicking dirt on my grave but here's the thing like I had that same dot against jack against belal and he and he didn't do it. He went out there and beat up Below and stopped his takedowns and when he did get him down he got back up again. And I think

back to, and this, I know people are going to say it sounds like you're trying to talk yourself in to give a Jack a chance, but it kind of reminds me of when Islam fought Dustin, Porier, won early, was winning pretty dominantly and then Dustin wouldn't go away, wouldn't go away. And he started, they did some exchanges on the feet and Dustin was doing pretty well for himself.

And then I think what was the fourth round, Islam got the Darstoke and put him away. But, you know, he had lost around there. I think someone had him like a tied two, two or what is the fifth round finish and they had him tied two too which seems a little crazy to me but okay but like there were a couple close rounds in there so like if he can't put jack away if jack just will not go away and it gets in that third fourth fifth round is he going to have the wherewithal to go out there and do what he did to dust and to jack who's a much bigger longer stronger legit welterweight

listen i'm i'm being honest i'm picking Islam because i just think Islam is that damn good but i don't think it's just this shutout like jack's just going to roll over and play dead no and you know what are the differences too is i think jack is going to be much more difficult to get down which is going to wear islam more and he's not going to pull for a guillotine i don't think right which was dustin's uh bane of his existence right and and also uh you know like again i think jack's going to have good success early on if he doesn't and i'm proved wrong there then you know i think Islam probably won't be such a hard night for i think you know i think you know i think if he can just get a takedown like he hopes to then you know I don't think there's very many

people on this planet that couldn't survive with him very very long on top but but like I see Jack being able to hold him off and being able to kind of pick him apart for a minute and and I think that's going to be you know I'm with you this is not a gimmie fight for Islam at all you know and people usually I think we think about grappler versus striker I'm I always 90% of time, I'm going to go with the grappler. So here, like, I'm still going to go with the grappler with Islam. I just don't see Jack overextending himself too much. And, you know, and he's a hard guy to push against the cage.

That's one of Ballal's specialties, you know, especially watching that fight. Like, that's what Belaw does very well, slows the fight down by putting you against the cage. Jack was very good about getting off the cage. Well, I think one of the big things that I've seen with Jack, he gets up pretty quickly, usually. and he's very difficult to hold down. But the guys that have held him down are not Islam. And Islam is, again, he's an opportunist. If you don't get up perfectly just the right way,

he's going to take a huge advantage of that. And I could see Jack potentially, you know, kind of forcing a stand-up and trying to get up a little bit, maybe I wouldn't say recklessly, but, you know, just not in perfect position and Islam being able to take advantage of that. And that's kind of going to be my, my prediction in terms of, you know, very specific prediction.

But, but, yeah, that's a little more specific than you can get with M.M.A. So I think, I remember when John Jones was fighting Cyril Gaon, he brought in Gable Steveson, who was an Olympic gold medalist. They brought in Gordon Ryan, who was, you know, maybe the best grappler ever. And he went out there, got his takedown and got the guillotine and put Cyril gone. Because I think we all knew, in our head, like, he doesn't want to stand on the outside and deal with Cyril on the outside. That was kind of what we talked about with the Aspenol finally.

Why is Aspinall just standing and trading with Cyril gone? That seems like a really bad idea for a guy who's so dynamic and fast and explosive of Cyril gone. And when you look at John working with guys like Gable and he did that with Stipe as well, you kind of get the idea like he knows his clearest path to victory. And I think Islam's got an incredible team around it. But I do get like Jack's been working a lot with Craig Jones. Craig Jones is a really, really nasty grapple, really good offensive. and defensive grappler,

I think that paid dividends for the Bilal Muhammad fight. And I think had he not fought Bilal, had he had to fight somebody else, like Leon Edwards, if he had knocked out Leon Edwards, we would have a much different discussion. But because he fought Bilal, who has a similar-ish style to Islam in terms of pace, pressure, take-downs, things like that,

I think Islam is probably the better overall grappler, but you can't say that Bilal's not a good wrestler, he's a very good wrestler. I think we got a little bit more sense of who Jack is and what he can do, because, you know, Jack beats Jack beats Leon Edwards were like, well, you know, he still has a room in his grappling.

Well, he had to counter a lot of grappling, a lot of cage work from Milan. And he did it very, very well. So I think, like I said, I'm picking Islam, but I'm not going to be surprised if Jack Poles one out here. And I don't think you can just write him off and say, well, this is just, you know,

just hand the title to Islam. He's the champ. Like, I felt much more confident saying John Jones is going to beat Cyril Gaon, like hand him the title. I don't have that same confidence with this one. But, but, you know, I think it's really going to come down to Islam and we we I believe in Islam you know I think it's kind of

his fight to win or lose and um you know Jack is is so skilled though it's just a matter of Islam being able to to maintain his discipline way of fighting through some adversity because I do think Jack's going to give him some adversity but but Islam has to maintain that discipline through that adversity and if if I'm his coach in this fight and like that's the that's the theme of the camp maintain the discipline through the adversity yeah let me ask this question man i know this is probably something better to be answered after the fight but we talked i think it was after islam defeated dust apore and we were talking about where he ranks amongst the all-time great lightweights because i think that was his fourth title defense which is more than

kabib had three now is four and or maybe it was moikano the moikano fight i think was the fourth whatever we said like you know in terms of his legacy like has he already suppressed kabib in terms of lightweight i think we both kind of agree yeah it kind of has and not because Kabeeb wasn't great, it's because he retired before he had a chance to go on and do six, seven, eight title defenses. Matt, I think you know my opinion on this whole two division champ thing. I don't like it. I'm not a big fan of it.

I don't, like, I miss the days. Like, you know, when guys like George St. Pierre would defend his style nine times, like that just never, Demetri's Johnson 11 times. Like, that just never happens anymore. I don't put as much stock into the two division champ thing as so many other people do. Like, everyone thinks that's like the gold standard now for being great. I don't think, like, John Jones never had to. fight a heavyweight for me to consider him the greatest of all time.

Like, I still considered him the greatest of all time without a single fight of heavyweight. Did he do good at heavyweight? Sure, but I don't really care. That didn't change my opinion of what he did. But I'm curious with Islam because, yeah, no, he didn't clear, you never truly clear out of division. I don't care how many times you did he clear out. You never really do.

There's always going to be another guy. Like, he never got to rematch Armin. That's Armin's fault, by the way. He got injured and he didn't fight. That's on him. And you can't sit and say Topori because at the time Topori was still a featherweight. I understand the narrative, like he was the guy but I had a similar you know we talked about in the show I had a similar concern after he beat up a featherweight everyone's like oh you beat up a featherweight

if he beats to pouria I get it like you're like you're beating up a featherweight again but I think I think Islam did pretty good what he needed to do a lightweight I don't think he needed to beat gaitchi I don't think he needed to beat Dan hooker again like he already beat Dan hooker once I don't think he needed to beat certain guys to prove like I think he is solidified as if not the greatest one of the greatest lightweights of all time so I don't have a problem with Islam going up, because this is something he has talked about for years. He just didn't want to have to fight

Balal. Belal's not the champion anymore, so it's kind of clear to pass. So I'm fine with that. But if Islam goes out there and wins, and I don't care if he wins in a fifth round, Hail Mary, or he knocks him out in the first round. He wins. He becomes a double champion. He becomes a two division champion.

Like, where does Islam start fitting into our conversation of like all-time grades? Because I don't think, like, I don't think this moment defines him one way or the other. If he loses, I don't think it ruins what he did before. But also I'm not going to sit here and say, oh, well, he's now the greatest of all time because he went to welterweight.

But deny, like it or not, it is a cool accomplishment to win a second division title and going up and facing a reigning champion. So, like, what, if Islam is successful, like what kind of conversation do we need to have about Islam's career at that point? Because he's already done a lot. He's on this

incredible 15-fight win streak, you know, defended his title four times. Now he's going up to Welterweight. Like, where does he start fitting into this conversation of, I don't know, all-time grade, and like, where are we going to put Islam if he does, if he does accomplish this? Yeah, I'm with you. I mean, we certainly wouldn't

he's the greatest lightweight of all time. I think that's pretty much set in stone. I don't think there's, you know, I think that's done, right? I don't know what this does for him in terms of, I don't know what, like, greatest of all time

type thing, you know, or I mean, you know, pound for pound or anything, you know, I think, because he's already up there with all of that. He's still got a long way to go to be kind of one of the all-time greats, right, when you're talking about the Anderson Silvas and the John Jones and people like that. He's got a long way to go for that. So, you know, you just can't really put them there yet. And I don't think like the idea of being double champ accelerates that, right? You got to keep a winning street going. And that's because you know that's what the other guys did um and i think that's the only issue there really right he's just got more you got to have more time in the game um so really i mean it just kind of

solidifies where he's at right now is uh is where he belongs right like he i you know he's got to be top three pound for pound i'm sure right i mean you got the argument with marab and um who else. I mean, I think Ilya, I think Ilya is number one or two. I think it goes I think it goes Ilya. I think it was Ilya Islam Arab. I think it's a top. Pretty UFC. I think that's how they haven't ranked right now. Yeah, well, I got Marab number one for sure. And then I would put Islam number two right there and Ilya probably number three. But, you know, I mean, that just, it kind of

solidifies, okay, that's where you belong, whether you got them at one, two, or three or whatever. You know, all that's debatable. I think it just solidifies that, but it doesn't, you know, it's not, it's not moving them up a ton in my book, right or wrong. When we talk about all-time grades, you know, we talk about our Mount Rushmore. We talked about that before. Like, we talk about, you know, John and Anderson and Demetrius and, you know, Fador, certain people just, you know. And GSP, yes, but George St. Pierce is absolutely on the list. I think the difference with all those guys, and maybe you'll disagree with me, but to me it's always longevity, doing it over a longer period of time and being great.

Like, my biggest knock on Demetrius, who I think is incredible, my biggest knock on Demetrius has always come down to he just didn't have the deepest division. Like, Flyway just wasn't as good. Do I still consider him an all-time great? 1,000 percent. And if we're talking about the most talented guys ever, I think it's him and John Jones. Like the most talented fighters I've ever seen perform is John Jones and Demetrius Johnson. But that's not the conversation we're having.

We're talking about all-time great. Demetrius is on that list. But the reason I knocked Demetrius down a little bit is because of the level of competition. But John, you know, John, the reason why I always put John to top, it's not because of what he did at heavyweight. That doesn't matter to me, really. I mean, it's cool.

I'm glad he did it, and it's like an extra, like, little exclamation point in his career. But, like, he went through, like, 18 fights, 18 title fights, what a ridiculous number of title fights and never lost. he lost like four rounds or five rounds in that entire time and that's over like a 10 year span now Islam's been on a run don't get me wrong because remember he didn't get the title till later because it could be being champion he had to kind of wait his turn

but like it or not he had to wait his turn and so like his whenever Dan Hooker wasn't a title defense it was a regular fight his whenever Arvusarukin wasn't a title defense it was a regular fight not saying they don't count I'm just saying like there is more magnitude attached and pressure on a title fight. I'm with you that I think Islam is an incredible fighter and absolutely, you know, like if he goes out and wins,

you know, pound for pound, one, two, whatever, whatever you want to put on it. But I don't know that I put him in that conversation with George, John, Anderson, Demetrius yet because they have numbers that he just hasn't achieved yet in terms of longevity. And now Islam can go out and defend the welterweight title four times on top of what he already did the lightweight.

Then we'll have a different conversation. But one fight, one win, to me, doesn't define the, like, I think it's awesome. I think Islam's amazing. But I'm not going to put him in that, like, I'm not going to put him in that top four or five category just because of one win. I guess that's what I'm getting. I'm not trying to knock the guy. I'm just saying that I couldn't put him in that category yet because to me it's about longevity. It's about doing it over a long.

George Sabier, nine title defenses in a ridiculously good welterweight division. That's hard. That's really hard. And I got to tell you, if Islam does a full. four-fight win streak at Walterweight, I think that's a, that is a strong case to be one of, to be the greatest, right? And because I agree, because, you know, we basically both just said the same thing, right? He needs more numbers, right? Just higher numbers. It just hasn't done it long enough yet. He's done it. And the fact that it's a double champ thing, that's not enough,

I don't think, for much of anybody to be like, okay, that's, you're the greatest of all time. You did it in two divisions but if he goes on a four-fight win streak at welterweight you know to to have a um because that would be something new right john jones did did it at light heavyweight and again and realistically his heavyweight run has been meaningless for the most part right we like to watch and like because there's you know there's we're like well he's a heavyweight there's a better chance to lose and then not really right not until he fight tom aspinel um you know same with demetrius right it was it was all weight and then GSP all at one weight except for the final fight with Bispin but for Islam to go out and go on a streak like that across two weight divisions that would add

something then to do a streak at two divisions not to do a single fight at a higher division I agree and you mentioned great George St. Bear is a perfect example of that like I think about George what he did at Weltsway he beat Bispin cool doesn't change my opinion of what he did before He just, he was, you know, so I think you're right. Like, he defended the title four times a lightweight. If he can defend the title four times of Welchway, 10% he deserves to be in that conversation. But the double champ thing just doesn't impress me as much as impresses of other people. Yeah, and one of the interesting things is a lot of times when these guys go up and wait, you kind of get the feeling.

I don't know, I'm not going to say it's factual, right or wrong, but you kind of get the feeling that they move up at a proper time when it seems like a good matchup for them, right? with John Jones going up and fights Surreal Gone, like perfect matchup or Connor moving up to fight Eddie Alvarez, like great matchup for him. And GSP going up to fight Bisping, right? Great matchup for him. It's like an opportunist thing where they're like, well, this is a good time to move up and do it. It doesn't feel that way with Islam right now. I think maybe when Jack first became champion, it kind of felt that way. And I know it actually had to do it ball and everything but you know it might have felt that way but i don't feel so i don't feel so strongly about that i don't feel like this is an opportune time to be moving up because i i don't think jack

is going to be that easy of a fight um i don't think the size is going to play a big difference to be honest like i think islam's pretty big and um i'm betting he worked really really hard to make lightweight and it probably should have been well through weight um and i think His strength is probably going to carry over. I think his power and everything is going to carry over perfectly fine. So I don't necessarily give Jack an advantage just for that. The reach might make a difference. You know, like Islam's fought longer guys.

Like, like I'm confident. I haven't looked at the numbers, but I'm confident Charles Alvarez is as big as Jack Dalmatelina. Like Charles is a ginormous guy for, at least lengthwise, you know, for 155. But yeah, it doesn't feel like. like just an opportune time at least now that we're closer to the fight again when this fight was first booked i probably would have thought that but oh yeah he's moving up at the right time going the right matchup at this time after watching the fights and staling like this isn't as opportune as

you would think but i still think like to me there's work to do like i can't put him in that i can't i think is incredible there's a lot work to do but i don't think you can put him in that same conversation of like Jones, Anderson, GSP, Demetrius, yet. Like, now, if he goes out and beats Jack and then beats Sean Brady and beats Shavkat Reckmanov and beats, I don't know, Ian Machado, Gary or whoever else is going to be, but 1,000 percent, that I'm going to 100 percent put Islam Akachov in that conversation. And do I think he can do that? I absolutely believe he's talented enough to do that.

I think Islam is incredible. But it's not about, it's just like when I talk about talent. I think talent-wise, Demetrius Johnson is, is not. neck in neck with John Jones is the two talented, most talented guys either. But I can't, you know my criticism, I love Demetrius, but I can't put him ahead of John just based on 11 title defenses. Who did those 11 title defenses come against? I'm not saying John didn't have a couple random ones in there, maybe he slipped one by

with Dominic Reyes or whatever, but on his record, they say wins. But I think Dominic Reyes at that time is a very, very good fighter. Alexander Gustaf, a very, very good fighter. Chris Carrioso? I don't know if I'd really count that as one of Demetrius' as better title defenses. George St. Pierre, like I said, George St. Pierre, like I said, George St. Pierre, it doesn't change my opinion of George St. Pierre. It was a cool accomplishment. I'm glad he did it, and I know he wanted that, but, like, my opinion of him didn't change because he beat Michael Bisping for the middleweight title. Right.

But if he had beat Michael Bisping and then defended it against U.L. Romero and Robert Whitaker and maybe whoever it was. Man, like, then the conversation changed me about George St. Beer, but that didn't happen. So Islam, to me, has some work to do before we can start putting him in that all-time great conversation. I think it's possible, but I guess what I'm getting at, this one win is not going to change the narrative of where I would put him in that all-time great list. Yeah, that's exactly right. And especially, I mean, when you're naming the names of the top 10 potential contenders

in the welterweight division, I mean, he has a serious murderous row ahead of him, too, right? When you talk about the Shavkots and the Sean Brady's and, I mean, he's got a lot of work to do. And I and I think the the type of guys that he's got to do it against really solidifies the all-time great thing. Again, if he can go on that run. You know, in hindsight, it's always 2020, but, you know, I think we could look back at probably all the opponents of the era that we're talking about with Anderson and GSP and John. I mean, fighters are evolving. The sports evolving. It's growing. The matchups are getting tougher.

The opponents are getting tougher. Like, Islam's going to have a harder time to do a run like that than those guys did. And that's just a matter of fact, unfortunately, for him. And I've always said, I know it's an argument most people don't like when I make it, but I've said for a long time

I think Walterway is the best division in the sport. I really do when you look at like top to bottom. And if Islam can do that, we'll revisit that conversation. because if he beats Jack and then goes out and beats Shavkat or beats Sean Brady or beats, you know, whoever, we're going to, then we're going to have a whole different conversation because that's going to be pretty damn impressive. I don't know if he'll be able to do it because obviously there's going to be tougher

matches, there's going to be bigger matchups out there. But yeah, like, then we'll have a different, you know, Kamar Usman. Like, then we're going to have a different conversation about where Islam fits. But him being Jack, to me, doesn't put him there yet. But it puts him on the right path. It can put him on the right path. But I just, I don't put as much in this whole two. like Connor, like Conner, like Conner's a two-division champ.

I don't put him anywhere near the all-time great status. Like, you know, I don't, you know, like, I just don't. And I think, like, Daniel Cormey, who you know I love, that's my guy. I think Daniel Cormey is an all-time great, top 10, top 15, but you can't erase the John Jones factor. Like, he had that, you know, the John Jones, and you can't erase that. And then Steve-Bade, he didn't get knocked out by Steve-Bay, too, Lewis was twice to Steve-B, so you can't just erase that from your memory.

As great as D.C. was, you can't put him over somebody, like, stepe you put him over at heavyweight you put john over him at light heavyweight so like there's got i guess there's just more work to be done for islam and i don't think islam's done by the way i don't think he's going to be jacking and just walk out and retire but that's the same reason we don't put kabib in that list because his greatest kabb was he walked away before we really got to find out what he was capable of like i'm not saying he was great camille was awesome that dude was a monster but unfortunately and i don't blame him his dad passed away and he made a promise to his mother. I don't fault him for that. I just can't put him

next to John Jones, GSP, Anderson. Same thing here. Yeah, you have to look at numbers in the end, right? Because, you know, 20 years from now, no one's even going to remember a lot of these names. They're going to be looking at numbers on paper, and that's what's going to ultimately decide. So, yeah, that's kind of just what it is at this point. Islam's got some work to do, but he's got some huge obstacles to overcome. He's got a very, very tough division in front of him. first he's got Jack Del and Madelina in front of him, but we're going to find out a lot this weekend, I think. 100%. Real quick, before we get out of here, Matt.

Obviously, we know we got Valentina Schenko, Zhang Wei Lee, and the co-main event. We got Sean Brady against Michael Morales. That's a fun fight. We got Leon Edwards against Carlos Prattis. That's a really interesting fight. And we got Benoit St. Denis against Benildare Ush, obviously, Bo Neckle on the undercard. But let's just talk about the main card. Outside of the main event, Matt, which fight are you most looking forward to on this card?

Because it is a stack card. You got Leon coming back from a couple of losses Like is he still one of the best welterways Because he got worked by Sean Brady He got beat by Bilal Like is he still there Carlos Prachis came back Got a big winner for Jeff Neal

Is he still going to be a contender I think Michael Morales is a monster man This is a tough fight for Sean Brady And then you got Binwasse de Niz Coming off a couple wins Benil Darius Everyone's like trying to kick dirt on his grave After he lost a couple of fights

He goes out and beats Moikano Look great doing it So what And obviously you know Zhang Wei going up to 125 We haven't really talked about that because the women's divisions aren't exactly setting the world on fire right now.

But Valentina is one of the, you could argue at worst, the number two or three all-time great behind maybe Amanda Nunes and then is probably Valentina. Which of those fights are you most looking forward to on Saturday? I mean, without a doubt, Leon Edwards and Carlos protest, and not

I think some of the other ones might carry more meaning overall, but that has such high potential to be just a war. because like protis fucking brings it bro process brings it and you reminds me of like uh kind of a maybe a better version of myself right like he is a hell of a good fighter um i wish you quit smoking still god damn party and stuff you know it's only one of his uh bottlenecks there

but um you know it's gonna be interesting how leon handles someone coming after him like that because you know leon could very well um kind of sniper him apart you know and just stay away from all the heavy shots and everything but i think carlos is going to keep pushing and um yeah i mean i always get the most excited about uh striking type matchups so i'm definitely going to lean towards that one and i think um brady and morales would have to be number two though just out of the out of respect for the amount of the high level that we're going to be seeing there and that's that's the one for me i am i'm most excited because i think i think Sean Brady, like, I remember when Sean Brady

came in, I was like, this guy's going to be, like, he's going to be a contender. You got knocked out by Ballow, and to his credit, he's bounced back since and looked incredible. You could argue maybe the best pure grappler at Welchway? Like, maybe not best wrestler, but best pure grater. Yeah, best, but Michael Morales. Dude, Michael Morales is up there too.

Dude, Michael Morales is a freaking monster. Like, this kid, like, he is, all the hype is real about this. He's like, what he did to Gilbert Burns, he just went out there and absolutely demolished Gilbert Burns. You don't do that to Gilbert Burns. You don't just go out and walk through Gilbert Burns. Hamzot didn't walk through Gilbert Burns. Michael Morales walked through Gilbert Burns and made it look like he didn't belong in there with him.

I give Sean Brady a ton of credit for taking this fight because on paper he should be fighting Shavkat, he should be fighting Bilal, you know, maybe Ian Gary at worst. Like Michael Morales a little further back. He took a risk here and this is a risk man. This could be like Sean Brady is legitimately one win away from a title shot. He may not get through this because Michael Morales is a freaking monster. So, like, that's the one I'm most excited about because I'm curious, like, can Sean Brady implement his grappling, his game plan

and deal with the size and the power and the speed of a young, hungry, just nasty dude like Michael Morales? That's the one I'm most looking forward to on this car because I'm just like, man, there's just like, I don't know how that one's going to go. Yeah, yeah, I'm right there with you. That's a, I mean, that's an absolute fire matchup from top to bottom.

So, I mean, what a great card it is all around. I mean, it's pretty rare that I don't go for a beer break or a pizza break or a pee break during the women's fight, but I might stick around for this one because Valentin is by far my favorite girls fight women's MMA competitor to watch ever. I think she's probably the highest skilled one that we've ever seen. And Zhang Wei is a monster too. So, you know, I think that could be an absolute firefight also. So, you know, I think this is a this. whole card, you got to give credit or credits to do. The UFC put together

a barn burner here from top to bottom. And you got, like I said, I did that Leon Edwards fight, it's kind of like do or die for Leon. Like, he can't lose another one because he's like a couple in a row and he's, you know, getting in his, I think he's like 35 now, whatever, and there's a blueprint. Like what Ian Gary did to Carlos

process, there is a blueprint. If he can do what Ian Gary did, but maybe Carlos has made some adjustments and he's learned and I don't know, man, that's a banger. I think Benoit Benoitian is a banger. They're all. good. One of the, the first thing that comes to mind with the Pratiss Edwards fight was like the Leron Murphy, Aaron Pico fight, right? Where I could see Prattis kind of taking it to him and then, you know, Leon just finding that one, you know, you know, because Carlos over extends himself, right?

He goes a little bit too much sometimes. And I can see Leon pulling something out of the hat like that. Yeah. I mean, Leon, I mean, you think about Leon, like people like, yes, he did get, he did get me bubble out. Yes, he did get submitted by Braille. but like when you talk about just pure striking he's not no one's really gotten to better him pure striking like he's a very very dynamic nasty striker it's an interesting fight man like I said it's an interesting card like I said lots of lots of storylines and you can even argue on the prelims like it's not do or die for bow nickel but he certainly doesn't want to lose a second one with as much hype as around him he cannot afford to lose the redolfo vierre and that's a tough

fight because that's not an easy matchup for him either right he's one of the highest highest level grapplers in the UFC right there. And, you know, that's kind of, I guess, that one of the unfortunate parts about that fight. We might end up seeing a striking match because, you know, I don't see Rodolfo being able to take Bo down. And Bo may not want to pull the trigger on Rodolfo. And now you've got two guys that don't really know how to strike trying to strike.

Yeah, but it is a proving point because, like I said, Bo can not, like, I don't think Bo can go out there and he would have like a lackluster, like 29, 28 decision. Like, he needs to look good because he got, got handled by RDR. He got handled by Derriter. He needs to go out and look good. And I don't know if going out there and just winning a really sloppy, ugly striking match is going to get people back on board with him. Yeah, which is tough to do against Rodolfo, too. You know, so that's a, yeah, it's going to be an interesting fight for sure. And I love the Valentina Zhang Willi

fight. I think that's an incredible fight. I'm with you. I think Valentina is the most skilled, maybe the most skilled woman we've ever seen, pure, like, top to bottom, not knocking what Amanda Nunes is, but I'm talking about, like, pure skilled, you know, power. pound. I don't know. There's ever been anyone better than Valentina Shubchenko, but anyway, at least a powerhouse. I'm curiously how she's going to adapt to 125. That's a really interesting. There aren't many women's fights I'm interested in right now. I think Amanda Nunez, Kayla Harrison, and this one might be the two, but I am intrigued by this. But is Nunes Harrison actually going to happen, is the question.

In theory. In theory. Yeah, in theory. So, yeah. So hopefully they put on a good show. You know, I'm, I'm going to try to sit down and watch the whole card or Sunday morning, watch it, you know, not stay up and watch it on Sunday. And we'll be, we'll be breaking everything down afterwards on the podcast next week. We'll be doing all that, so. Absolutely. Look forward to it. All right. As always, I want to say a big thank you to everyone that tunes in the show.

Matt, where can people check you out? They want to find out what you got going on outside the podcast. At I am the Immortal Instagram and Twitter, the Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. Don't you have a creatine company, too? Oh, yeah, yeah, we've got the Vitifuel, P-H-U-E-L, creatine. I'm sorry, I always forget to plug my own shit, but yeah, yeah, you know, I've always said it, man. Everybody should be taking creatine, so we start doing it ourselves. That means men, women, children alike.

It's the most tested supplement in the world, so get on it. Yeah, Vitifuel, there you go. And always, as always want to say thank you to everyone that tunes in the show. Make sure you check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts. Spotify. And, of course, over on the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com. We'll be back with our fallout from UFC 322 next week, so stay tuned for that. And as always, we appreciate everyone tuning in the show. For Matt Brown,

I am Damon Martin. We'll see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Nothing quite makes a holiday gathering pop like turning on the music. And if you're looking to set the mood, you should check out Sonos. With Sonos, movie nights feel bigger and more cinematic. While holiday parties come to life with music that flows from room to room, It's the kind of sound that makes a house feel warm and connected during the season.

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