MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Francis Ngannou’s Comments, If Jake Paul Has Any Chance Against Anthony Joshua

Episode Date: December 16, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to the latest comments from Francis Ngannou addressing his future and saying he would like to fight Jon Jones on the UFC White House card. Is Ngannou regretting his decision to leave UFC or is something else at work? Plus, we’ll break down Jake Paul vs. Anthony Joshua, a few fighters suddenly picking Paul for the upset and if the former YouTuber actually has any chance in the upcoming fight plus much more on the latest episode! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, we have, we officially have arrived at Jake Paul versus Anthony Joshua Fight Week. And we are officially into the UFC on Paramount era after the final UFC on ESPN card aired on Saturday night. Matt, how will you fondly remember the UFC on ESPN? I remember what was a lot of circles. on my TV trying to get that freaking app to work. What do they call those circles of death or something? Yeah, the circle, circle of death.

Yeah, the buffering circle of death. Yeah, it's funny because, like, you'd think for a company that's is worth as much and, like, has so much invested in, like, streaming that they would have fixed that some point over the last seven years. But they never, like, I, what's funny is last night, they had the Manel Cop versus Brandon Roy Volkard. And I'm not even kidding when I said,

I think that's the first card in, like, months where I didn't have it yet die at some point during the event. But, like, last week for the pay-per-view, I was literally, I think it was like the first five of the night, but it just froze. Just died completely. I don't understand how in seven years you don't figure that. I understand technology. Like, you know, it's going to happen occasionally, but like every event. Yeah, because it was kind of, it would happen to me all the time. And I was like, I was like, I must be the only one, right?

It's like is my Wi-Fi, my TV, or some shit, and then you go on Twitter to see, you know, what's happening in the fight because you're missing it, and you're like, oh, everybody's complaining about this. Yeah. It's like everybody, like, we don't have that problem with other services. We got Amazon Prime. We got Netflix.

We got Paramount. We got Hulu. We got, I think we just signed up for a free trial for Fubo today because my son wanted to watch the Bill's pay Patriots game, which ended up not even being on there, like none of them mess up, hardly ever. Like, it's so rare. And then ESPN, you go on there and it's just, I swear, it's at least every other time that you're having a problem. So that's my fondest memory for sure.

Yeah, I mean, I think overall, I mean, I use Paramount Plus pretty often because I watch TV shows over there, and I've watched football over there a lot because I'm a Bengals fan, and the Bengals typically put on CBS, which means streaming on Paramount Plus. I can't speak to what it's going to be like during the UFC experience, but I can tell you I've never really had problems with that app. It's always worked really, really well for me, and I know that's a big technology, that's a big technology

company with the owner's dad being the Oracle guy, so like they're obviously very, very big into technology. So hopefully we don't have those same kind of issues, but I tell you what, and listen, like, I do this as a job so like, I'm not sitting here complaining, like when I have to buy a pay-per-view, part of my job,

like that's, you know, it's part of your job, get reimbursed, whether they're through tax or whatever, like, you know, I understand. I'm not in the same situation as fans, but I'm still a fan. Yeah, yeah. I'm still a fan. And the cost going down next year, I think Dana has said it publicly, and I agree, I think that's going to be a huge benefit from the sport. Because when you cut, when you put a, when you put a paywall and, like, you're putting

a paywall in terms, like, having to have a streaming service, but at this day and age, everyone has streaming services. So, like, chances are you're probably paying for it anyways. but not having that additional $80 to watch the biggest fights of the year, I mean, there's no way that's not going to benefit the sport in the long run. Yeah, but does it benefit the fighters is the big question, right? And I don't know all the details yet, but, you know, benefiting the fighters and their ability to make more money is what benefits the sport more than anything else,

no matter how much visibility there is, right? I mean, how many freaking NCAAD1 athletes are even in the, UFC anymore. I mean, you hardly even see them. I mean, we've got Bo Nickel and who else. I can't even, off top of my head, I can't think of another. I'm sure there's others, but I can't think of another one off top of my head. And they got

NIL now, right? They're probably making more money. If you're a legitimate D1 athlete, like you're making more money wrestling in college than you can come into the Super Bowl of mixed martial arts. I had a conversation. I care who it was. I talked to somebody in wrestling

not that long ago about that. And I was like, how much that's changed. I think it was Logan Storley, actually, because Logan obviously wrestled Minnesota, and he was talking about, like, how much has changed. Like, I know wrestling's not getting football money. Like, I just saw a thing today where, like, Arch Manning, the Texas quarterback's getting like $4.5 million this year in NIL. I don't think wrestlers are getting that much, but like, even if it's like $100,000, like, wrestlers used to live on, you know, ramen noodles and water. Like, you know, you didn't get anything. So to even get 50 or 60 or $70,000 for the top programs, places like Penn State, Ohio, State, Iowa, like, it does make a difference.

And I have, I've made mention of that, like, how we see far less wrestlers, the highest wrestlers. You know, you still see a lot of wrestlers coming in, but, like, the guys at the very top, like, everybody used to talk about it. Like, when you were, if you were not going to go to the Olympics or you did win an NCAA title, the next move is almost automatically fighting. And now that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. and I got to imagine money plays a part in that. Yeah, money plays a part. And I think there's other factors, too. I actually just was kind of discussing this on Twitter the other day with some people.

And, you know, I think like the education plays a role, too, right? To be a D1 athlete, you know, especially like, say you're going to Ohio State or Penn State or something. You know, a lot of these guys are getting good scholarships, sometimes full-ride scholarships. And it's like, okay, are you going to waste that education? where you could go make, you know, 100K a year right away and go, you know, compete in, you know, the UFC or whatever kind of fighting organization and make 12 and 12, right? So, you know, just that simple thing. And also, you know, I think a lot of the vast majority of these D1 athletes, especially, again, Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan, these top colleges, most of these guys have accomplished. from like good families right and they're they have a support system around them and and known mom is going to be like yeah you should go fight in the UFC and go break your nose and get your

block knocked off for some for hopefully some money right and so they're going to be i think they're going to be encouraged most of their life to not go into something like fighting right fighting has always since the beginning of time has been like a poor man sport right it's for the the guy that wants to get out of the hood or the guy who comes from impoverished or abused families and things like and wants to get out it's never been for well off i don't know mentally healthy people right it's just it just not just doesn't make sense so you know i would my my biggest argument is that the the majority of d1 athletes at these higher level schools are probably coming from healthy families and you know they have their shit together at least you have to kind of keep your shit together to

to be at one of those schools in wrestling, right? You have to have, like, your academics in check. You know, you've got to be a responsible person. And then, and then you're going to go do basically the most irresponsible sport that you could possibly imagine. So I think there's like a lot of factors to it. But again, if the money was there, right? If, you know, it's a lot easier to call your mom and say,

say, I want to go chase this, you know, $10 million payday or this $50 million payday, right? I think I could be the next Floyd Mayweather or something. But instead, you know, you're going to call your mom, be like, hey, you know, they offer me 12 and 12. You know, I'm thinking about taking. Or maybe, you know, maybe offer me 50 and 50. And mom's going to be like, yo, like, you're going to get paid at your first year

sitting in an office desk and you can still go work out after. Yeah. It's funny because when you think about like, and by the way, when you're talking about, like, you know, people cover from like the rough backgrounds, that's boxing as well, by the way. I know you know that, but like that's not just MMA. It's very much, but that was always the story. Like, we read about Mike Tyson, like coming up from absolutely nothing, dirt poor.

And, you know, and there's certainly another wrong with chasing that dream, but, yeah, it's not going to be for everybody. And we are seeing that less and less now. I do think money and danger plays a part. Now, you remember years ago, Jordan Burroughs, oh, I want to fight, I want to fight, I want to fight, and then, you know, a couple of fights happen. Well, almost everybody on this planet wants to do it, right? Like, I'm sure, like, at one point, you kind of wanted to do it, right? Like, everybody has, every man has wanted to do it. But it's like, okay, is this a logical path in any sense of the word?

For a wrestler, like, it's potentially a logical path. It's just a matter of, okay, like, if you stop and you actually think about it, it's like, okay, is this the most logical path for my life? And for Jordan Burroughs, obviously, it wasn't. Or Kyle Snyder talked about it. I was sitting at the UFC with him in. Cleveland, I think it was, and he was so fired up. He was like, oh, I want to get in there so bad. But like, it doesn't make any sense. Again, even, even, you know, he's an Olympic gold medalist. It's like, even if they were going to pay him 100 and 100, like, does that really

make sense for him to do that? You know, he, I mean, he has very good sponsorship deal. Well, he did. Have you very good sponsorship deals and, you know, a lot of support behind him. I think to me it's just it's more complex than just simply these athletes have the skills to do it why aren't they doing it? Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right and it's funny because Dana

just recently was talking maybe you saw this comment he made when they were talking about we were going to talk about Francis Ngano anyways today so it's kind of a good segue to that but Dana had said like if we want somebody we want to keep somebody we're going to keep him. He's acknowledging they can pay you to stay with the UFC if they really want to pay you. And let's be honest,

they can pay you more than any other promotion out there. I mean, they're literally the only promotion that's profitable. Like, they're literally the only one. And even in boxing, like, like, obviously it wasn't until Turkey Al-Shake came along and started paying everyone a boatload of money, but boxing was kind of, you're

struggling with that as well. Because you get like a couple of three fights a year where you get these big ass cards and, you know, Floyd making 50 or some guy making 50 million. But even that was kind of dying down a little bit because of Paperview model is kind of dead. DeZone only has so much money to spread around. And then Turkey comes in, he's like, I'll fund it myself.

We'll fund it personally. And then everyone started getting paid again. That well is going to run dry eventually. I mean, there's no way it's not going to run dry. Maybe it's 10 years from now. I mean, it's 20 years from now. I have no idea what it's going to take. But Dana made that comment about, like, we want to keep you, we'll keep you.

And chances are he's right. Like, they have the money. They know they have the money to keep you. But, you know, they're just not handing it out very often. And so, you know, when he says that, like, I would argue that there will always be a market for all of eternity for the best fighters in the world. Like no matter whether it's boxing, MMA, whatever, right? People want to watch the best combatant athletes in the world, period.

The fact that there's, you know, when people talk about like pay-per-views dying and this and that, like, again, I think there will always be that. market now when you talk about the mid-range athletes yeah even myself included right i wasn't a champion i wasn't one of the greats it works great for them right the new model kind of where they're going to now right and what the ufc does all that stuff but for the top guys like if you are for gable stevenson like it's not going to be what it could be if he was doing boxing or you know more open market right for for guys like me or like uh you know jim miller like you know we made a we took the opportunity right and made it a career right we got a lot of opportunities and that that's you know that's where i kind of push back on that a little bit right like there the pay-per-view market

will always be there for the guys that are top of the world best fighters in the world now they might have to work their ass off and struggle and deal with bullshit to get there But everybody will always, like, in any time in history, people will pay to watch Floyd Mayweather. People would pay to watch Rocky Marciano. People would pay to watch Mike Tyson. People would pay to watch John Jones, right? But this new way they're doing, I think, like, really helps the, you know, the mid-range guy, right? Which is what the UFC has always kind of been predicated on, right?

It's kind of the mid-range guy, right? They've only had a few champions, you know, the Connor, Rhonda, you know, that actually, even John Jones, who really made it really big, right? And that actually got mainstream and went beyond the reaches of the UFC, so to speak. The vast majority is all mid-range. So when you cut, so we talk about like these D1 athletes, these national champions, you know, you get like a Logan Steber. Like he doesn't have any, any reason to want to come over to the. UFC, right? Because it's as superior of an athlete as he is.

He's got a million other things that he can do. Yeah. Let me bring this circle back to Francis because I don't know how much you saw the comments. A couple weeks ago, Dana was on a podcast and he talked about like why he had such a falling on on Francis. He talked about behind the scenes, Francis was a bad guy and he put his hands on

us and he put his hands on Hunter Campbell. He put his hands on Dana. Wasn't talking like beating him up or anything, like just grabbing them, touching him, things like that. Which, you know, if it's true, that is not cool. I don't know if it's true or not. I'm just basically what Dana says and obviously when Dana talks show took everything with a grand assault. Francis, when

he was asked about it, just kind of, I'm not condemning him. He just didn't really want to address it. He's more like, you know, he has cameras, he can show it, whatever. But then here's the interesting part. Of course, you know, because Francis, and I know this for a fact, Francis has one fight left on his PFL deal

and I talked to the BFL CEO John Martin a couple days ago and he said, we're going to get Francis in early 2026. We have something in the worst, which, you know, again, take that with a grain of assault. But then Francis admitted he's like, I have, my contract will end before the White House card and I still want to fight John Jones. And Dana White addressed it and more or less said, never going to happen. Like, that's when he made the comment.

Like, we want to be in business with you, we'll be in business with you. If we want to keep you, we will keep you. And to a certain extent, and this goes back to your monopoly question, he's probably not wrong. Like, in terms of if they really want to keep you, they'll pay you to keep you. But here's the question. And I'm not getting into the philosophical debate about pay or anything, because we can have a much deeper discussion about Dana making that comment if we want to keep you,

we'll keep you. Well, that's just kind of saying like you're basically telling us you control the market. Like I said, I'm not getting to do that. But we've kind of brushed up against this a little bit in the Francis Naganu conversation because when he left the UFC, he was the heavyweight champion of the world, number one heavyweight in the sport. He wanted to do boxing. He went over and had obviously a very tremendous fight with Tyson Fury, got knocked out badly by Anthony Joshua, We need that one win over Hain and Phaedah and PFL, and now he's kind of back in no-man's line, 39 years old turning 40 next year.

Is Francis kind of living with regret right now? Because when you start talking about I want to go fight John Jones to the White House, obviously your options don't look great in the PFL, and I don't think boxing is knocking down his door anymore. Because when Usses, Alexander Ussing is calling for Deonté Wilder, which you and I know is ridiculous. Deonté Wilder should not be in the boxing ring with Olegander Usoc at this point. But Usik is just like, I need some new challenges, and that's a big name.

I get it from his standpoint. If you're Deonti Wilder, of course you're going to take the Usik fight. It's a massive fight. Probably going to get paid. He probably way more than he would get paid to fight for Francis and Ghanu in a boxing match. A much harder fight, clearly, but still a lot of money. Like, when you, I don't read between the lines, like, is Francis living with a little bit of regret right now, like some of the choices he made?

Because when you're talking about, like, oh, my contract will be up, and I could go back to the UFC fight John Jones. And Dana's like, no, that's not happening. we have no interest in it. You kind of wonder, like, where's his head at in this whole thing? Personally, I highly, highly doubt. He's having any regrets here. I think that's the competitor in him speaking out and, like, yeah, I'm sure he wants to fight John Jones.

He wants to fight the best of the world. Of course, he wants, you know, a big fight and make sales and all that stuff. But I think it's a competitor. I don't think it was a single regret. I mean, he made more in those two boxing matches than, I mean, in one boxing match than he would have made in his entire UFC career. John Jones is made in his entire UFC career, right, the greatest ever, and some of the biggest fights ever, I mean, he made more than Connor's made in his entire UFC career, you know,

so I don't think there's a single regret in that, in that respect, but I'm sure he, you know, he's a competitor, right? He wants to fight the best. I'm sure there's like a little, a lot in the back of his head. It's like, you know, his last fight was against him frere, and he's like, man, I don't want to be fighting these guys, right? Like, I want to fight John Jones, but, I mean, you know, he's, he, if there's any regret there, which again, it's probably as competitor, that regret is, you know, he's regretting it while he's sleeping in silk sheets on a yacht, right? Like, it's not like he's regretting it because he's sitting in a two-bedroom apartment in nowhere, Mississippi or something, right? He's not, he's like, fuck, I've fucked my life up so bad, go do some meth or something. he's like chilling on a yacht fucking like man i wish i could have fought john jones like

this sucks you know like how much regret is that really yeah it's the nature like in in terms of prize fighting francis won he won he won he won i mean he won 10 times over i don't care they got i don't care they got his dick knocked in the dirt by anthony joshua he probably got paid 20 million to get his dick knocked in the dirt by anthony joshua and you run to so in terms of prize fighting he's won like he retires tomorrow he's already won the game. He got those two big boxing matches, and we have to imagine from everything I've heard, PFO paid him a ridiculous amount of money for that one fight. He's had in the PFL. I don't know what it was, but $10 to $15 million doesn't sound out of the relevant possibility. And let's be

honest, he would have never made anywhere close to that in the UFC what they were paying. And I know we talked about this. This is not a knock on Francis, but Francis was never a huge draw. It wasn't like Francis was a Connor. He wasn't. So the UFC saying we're not going to pay him $20 million. Well, yeah, probably not based on the draw he was. But PFL needed a big signing. He was the UFC heavyweight champion. The biggest splash they could possibly make availability, and obviously the UFC wasn't going to pursue him anymore. So boom. And so he won. Let me be clear about it. He won. He's like, but I think as you get, as you get to a certain

stage of your career, he's 39 going on 40, and like he could fight Vadim Knav, which I think is a good fight. Vadim Knav had a big win yesterday, and he looks really good. That could be a dangerous fight for Francis. Vadim's very, very good. But Vadim is also a bit of an unknown. to the general audience. Like, let's be honest. So you go up to your average MMA fan and say, who has been deemed Nimcoft? I'll look at you, like,

just, you know, ask them to do Chinese algebra. Like, you have no idea what you're talking about. I can't do English algebra. But, but, like, so, like, I think you're right in terms of, if he regrets anything,

it's from a competition standpoint, because I think he's looking at, like, he's got all the money in the world right now, right? Like, he doesn't need that. So, like, now he's to the point where it's like, because before it was, it was partially about money, not even really about the competition.

and it's like, hey, you're not treating me right. I have an opportunity to go to these boxing matches. You don't want to let me do it. I'm gone. And rightfully so, dude, I would have jetted as well if I could have fought. Like I said, I'll fight, I'll fight Tyson Fury tomorrow. You're going to pay $50 million. I'll go down in the first round, but I'll take the $50 million and walk out the door.

But now he's got all the money in the world. He's set for life probably, probably two or three times over. He's probably set for life. Now he's looking ahead and saying, what do I have left? Well, Deonté Wilder probably not going to happen. Obviously, he's never going to fight no sick. I mean, he could, he could probably, like, Joseph Parker, like, I'm not insulting Joseph Parker, but, like, he'll get paid for that, but it's not going to be, like, you know, it's not going to be a gargantuan car. There's two or three fights you could have in here.

He had two of them with Joshua and Tizer Fury. So he's looking, okay, so boxing is kind, not saying it's not an option, but, like, the big fights are not really there. Like, Deonti Wilder would have been the one, and it kind of seems like that's kind of disappeared. Okay, so you set that aside. Then you look at M.MA, okay, he can make $1015 million to fight Vadim Kopp. That's a risky fight because Vadim is very, very good. And the risk versus reward is you go out there and lose to a guy who is a natural light heavyweight and you lose, then, I mean, you know, that's devastating to a Francis and Gondo where you're still considered one of the two or three best heavyweights in the sport versus, man, I can fight John Jones. That's a legacy fight.

John Jones' greatest while time or Aspenol or even Cyril gone again, like whatever. Heavyweight is a very shallow division as it is. Even in the UFC is terrible. I think that, we talk about regret. I think that you're right. It's the competition thing because he's looking ahead. and he's like, I don't, there's not a lot of great options for him right now. If we're being honest, like, Nimcoff and who?

Like, what are you going to fight, Daniel Dubois? Like, you're going to get murdered by that guy? Because I think Dubois would probably piece him up pretty badly too. Like, I think that's what we're talking about. When he's talking about John Jones in the White House, it's like, it's like, what options do you have in terms of just fights? What is out there for Francis right now? Yeah, and I just think regret might even just be the wrong word.

I mean, I'm sure it's just on his mind, right? He's just thinking, dude, like, I want to fight the best guys. I guess when I think about regret, I think about someone kind of being upset or sad or wishing they did things different. Again, I'm sure when he's chilling in his $10 million mansion, you know, and his kids, his grandkids and his great-grandkids having million dollars in the bank at 18 years old,

I mean, he's not going to be sitting there like, oh, man, I should have done this differently, right? Again, I thought you hit the nail on the head at the beginning. in terms of prize fighting which is what we're doing he won he won the prize fight he got the fucking prize and he fought for it he got the fucking prize so it almost doesn't matter right like he's going to say whatever he can to try to get the best fights that he can and you know i'm sure that he would love to have a better legacy and i'm sure that he you know the ufc's they're the superpower right so he's always going to have

what could have been legacy right what he could have done in terms of competition and stuff and I'm sure he thinks about that but again I'm sure you know when he puts on his you know $20,000 suit and his you know $100,000 protect watch he's like yeah I think I'll be okay you know like I can I think I can accept this and get into his Ferrari and drive around for an hour in the wind and be all right well life will go on you know i'm sure i'm sure it's cool but but yeah as a competitor i'm sure there's no doubt like i'm sure he's he thinks about it regularly right like you said he's 39 like he's on his way to uh the end very close so yeah he's gonna he's gonna try to squeeze all the juice out that he can yeah i and i think like

i think that's where you have to balance things and i think you know you we've we've heard this like over the years from other fighters like for the long longest time, it was the Fador question. Like, man, what could have been with Fador if he had come to the UFC after that Pride deal closed? Because he was still the man at that point. Now, he went to Strikeforce, had a couple of wins, and obviously we know it happened with a doom

and, you know, a couple other fights and kind of things fell off for Fadour, but you always wonder, man, what could have happened if he would have come over and fought Randy Coutor, right, you know, come over and fought Brock Lester at that point, like what kind of an insane star? And I think he would have made a lot of money, too, by the way. Like, I don't think that, but I don't think Fador sits around and thinks like

what didn't happen. Like, I think Fador satisfied with what he did. He's still considered the greatest heavyweight of all time at worst number two. I think he's number one. And now he's coaching and doing, so I don't know, I think he's comfortable in that. I think that's what we're, when we talk about quote unquote regret, it's not, regret's just the word we use or the word I'm using, but it's just like what could have been in terms of like legacy, you know, like, because, you know, like he, he whenever took a shot in boxing. We're not talking about what he, like, yes, he came close to beating Tyson Fury, but it's still a loss.

I mean, it's still lost on the record. Then he got knocked out by Anthony Joshua. So boxing didn't work out for him in terms of legacy. It worked out in terms of his paycheck. It worked out in terms of his bank account, which is what, you know, let's be honest, should matter most. I think more fighters need to think that way in the future, be like, hey, think about my body.

I'm going to be 20 years from now, or 15 years from now when it's all over. Am I going to have money to survive on them? I'm going to have money for my kids. I'm going to have money for their college. Because guess what? This opportunity, as Dana White calls it, only lasts for so long. And I think when we talk about the regret, so you know, quote-unquote regret, is Francis thinking about what could have been in that regard?

Because he didn't go over and set the world on fire in terms of boxing. Had he beaten Tyson Fury, we'd probably have a totally different conversation right now because that would be one of the biggest upsets, biggest wins in combat sports history for a guy in his first fight to go over and beat the heavyweight champion. But it didn't happen. Came close, didn't happen. And then the Anthony Joshua fight happened. So Francis's fighting legacy is MMA.

Let's be honest about it. He left his UFC heavyweight champion, but now, like, his, the last, like, three or four years of his career are going to be, you fought Hainan Freda, which is, you know, I don't really know how much that even matters at this point, like what he's, what he actually represents. And you didn't get, because when he left, he had beaten Cyril Gond, but he didn't get the John Jones fight, which we know that would have been huge. That would have massive.

He didn't get to fight Tom Aspinall because Tom was kind of on to come up at that point, and, you know, Tom wasn't the number one guy in the world when he left. But you think about, man, imagine if Francis had fought John Jones and beat John Jones and then fought and beat Tom Aspinall. We'd be talking about Francis is the greatest heavyweight ever. I think that is probably what we're talking about, like, the regret, like what's inside him right now. Because he knows when he retires, he's going to retire with the yachts and the mansion and all the money. And you're absolutely right about that. But how are we going to remember Francis and John?

We're going to remember it was kind of like the, not quite the big what-if, but like a little bit of the quote-if. because he was on a run, man, knocking out Steve A, beating Cyril Gombin. You're like, man, if he could have just had like three or four more big fights, what, like, what would his legacy have been? I think that's what kind of bugs him right now because he knows he's never, he knows it's never going to happen. Like, it's done. Like, he's not going to get those fights.

Yeah, as a competitor, I'm sure it bugs him. And again, when you sit down to a $5,000 dinner with your wife and you're like, you're eating on gold plates and, you know, I think it kind of solves all those problems really quick, you know. but you know i think we're all humans you know and we all realize that um you know all the money shit it's not that like money doesn't matter and money doesn't buy happiness i kind of like my dad used to say he said yeah money doesn't buy happiness son but being broke don't buy shit so go make some fucking money and figure it out you know and i was like dude this is actually

a really good point right like like make the fucking money and then figure the fuck out and i think that's the situation that Ingano is in right now is he's like he's trying to figure it out right like okay because he's got money that's going to last again generations and generations it needs to so it's like okay what's going to bring me happiness now and it's probably you know once you have that much money i know a lot of very wealthy people that have went through this i've spoken to them about where they've went through these kind of times where you know the money isn't an issue anymore to them and like okay what's next like i i did that job what's next um and and my guess again i don't i don't know frances at all but my guess is that's kind of where he's at right now he's just thinking

okay what's next what can i do to have a true fulfillment in my life and and and and what can bring happiness for the rest of my life and i think you know being that he's still physically very capable of fighting that's what he wants to do and he's a fighter at heart and that's what he wants to do i think again what he does never has to worry about money for the rest of his life so when his when he's over the fighting part like he'll find another thing you know some people don't right some people go to drugs and alcohol or get depressed or whatever but hopefully he does right it'll probably find something else and they'll be perfectly happy with himself and it's a lot easier to it's a lot easier to go down that path of finding

happiness when you got 50 mil in the bank. And I'll say this, and we'll move on a second, but like, I think you're right about the competitor, because when you're a professional competitor, and that's what fighters are, professional competitors, I just think about, like, this week, I don't know if you saw, I know you're not paying attention to everything on the sports beat, but like Joe Burrow, my guy, Joe Burrow from the Bengals, basically made a comment that kind of freaked everybody out this week. He's like, if I'm not having fun, what am I doing this for?

Like, what am I? Because he's been injured, banged up. And a lot of people are like, oh, he wants out of Cincinnati. I don't think it's even that. I think it's, A, he's been injured a lot, which sucks because he hasn't able to go on the field. And his teams haven't been good. Last three seasons, they missed the playoffs, they've been, you know, losing records. Joe Burrow is a guy who's won at every level.

He was a great high school quarterback in Ohio, won a national championship at LSU, goes to the Super Bowl. And the second season is a bingle. And then since then, it's been kind of downhill. And when you're a natural-born competitor, you are a winner. You want to win. When you lose, it sucks, man. Like, it's like the worst feeling in the world. And Joe Burrow makes more money than Francis and got it.

He made $55 million and all the endorsements, everything. He's making, like, ridiculous. He's probably worked $200 million. Well, he's never got to worry about money for the rest of his life. But that competitor inside him is like, man, it sucks because we're not winning. I'm losing right now. That's not what I want. And I think that's kind of related back to the Francis thing where it's like he doesn't have to worry about money.

And ultimately, when his career is over, he's going to look at his bank account and say, yeah, you know what? I really don't have that much to be sad about. But the competitor inside him is like, man, I wish I could have had that. I wish I could have done this. I wish it could have been like a four-time defending UFC heavyweight champions set the records and become – because like when we talk about like the greatest of all time, we talk about John Jones, talking about Anderson-Silville, we talk about George St. Pierre. When we talk about George St. Pierre being the greatest Baltimore – Demetius Johnson. We talk about those guys. We talk about their accomplishments.

We're not sitting here debating who made the most money. Like in terms of like, you know, our conversation in sports people are not saying like, well, George has three houses in Canada. And we're talking about George was a nine-time difference. defending Welderweight champion, John Jones had undefeated in 19 title fights, whatever ridiculous number one to talk about. And I think that when we talk about what's going to bug Francis, there's going to be that small part of him in the back

of his head's going to be like, what could have been? What could I have done that I didn't get to do? Because, like I said, his legacy, he made money in boxing, but he didn't win in boxing. It was not like he went out there and became heavyweight champion in boxing. That was his goal. And I think, like, I'm sure, I was to say,

I'm sure that that part there bugs him a lot too because, um, You know, he's on two-fight losing streak in terms of boxing and then only beat Henan Ferreira. So, I mean, how many years has been since he's won a fight? So there's going to be that little worm of doubt in the back of his head, too. Like, how good am I, right? What do I have left, right? So he wants to go prove it to himself, too.

He wants to go fight somebody and prove that he's still a world champion level. Yeah. No, I agree. I think we got to differentiate the two. You know, it's not about regrets like he regrets the money because trust me, I'm sure he's happy with the money. But, you know, the other side, the competitor, and that's natural, right? Like, that's natural. I'm sure if you, if I really dug down into the Matt Brown archives,

I could get you to be like, man, I wish I had this, or I wish I would have done that, or little things here and there. I'm sure somewhere deep down inside, you still, you could still think about that. But obviously, you put a great career, you did a lot of amazing things, you made some money, things like that. But there's always going to be, I'm sure there's always going to be party. It's like, man, I wish it would have just done this one extra thing or, man, I wish. What's kind of interesting on that note,

if in the last, what, maybe two, three weeks, I've actually had two offers to go fight and both times I was like I didn't even think about money I was like dude I should go do that and then I stopped myself and was like no how much are you motherfuckers want to pay

well you know that's I mean that's a great point really is you know as fighters like we I don't think most fighters don't think about the money I mean this is what look I've said a million times I don't hate the for what they do or anything but they absolutely take advantage of that aspect of fighters you know and

and that's good for them right that they're doing what they're supposed to do i'm not hating on them for but they take advantage of that fact right like we're we're very focused and we we put trust in this manager that's supposed to take care of everything well the ufc controls all the managers so you know you're putting trust in the ufc to just take care of you you know so but it as as as fighters and i think francis is probably there now like we don't think about the the money part and not now frances okay i shouldn't say he's there now right because francis is an exception right where he's a supreme athlete has done amazing things but also had kept his head right about the money the whole time you know he fought he fought for where he's at right and he took a huge

risk right leaving the ufc i mean that was a gigantic risk because i don't think most of us as fighters think of there being much opportunity outside of the UFC. We think that's our path. That's the only thing. And that's the only thing when we're at the gyms. That's all people talk about. Is he getting to the UFC? Right?

When he's a, when you talk about, you know, have a bunch of fighters in my gym. When we talk about him, the thing is like, is he ready for the UFC? That's like, that's the conversation every time. You know, if I'm bragging about one of my fighters, I'm like, oh, bro, he's getting close to the UFC, you know, like he'll be there.

Like, that's the entire conversation. It's not, oh, he's a great fighter. he's going to do great things. Is he ready for the UFC or no? That's the bar. That's the standard. That's the litmus test. That's where we're at in the world of professional fighting right now, period.

I mean, and that's no, by the way, that's no different than, you know, the NFL. Like when you're in college, you're like, man, I really want to go play the CFL in Canada. No, I want to pay the NFL. I want to get drafted. I want to, you know. So, yeah, I mean, and the UFC has built that, and you're absolutely right. But, yeah, it'll be interesting. Like I said, with one fight left on this deal.

And, you know, I mean, I mean, you know, I mean, you know, I mean, you know, I mean, it certainly doesn't seem to the UFC has any interest in bringing him back. And I mean, to a certain – I mean, the heavyweight division could certainly use it because good God, it's bad right now. But I think Dana's pride is going to get in the way of that. Like, I don't think he has any interest in dealing with Francis again and going to roll that again. So I think we're probably – you know, Francis is probably going to retire off of a winover. I don't know. Maybe if a team Demkoff or maybe I don't know who else or whatever.

Maybe he gets another boxing match with Joseph Parker or whatever. And then – I've always wondered why one FC wouldn't make a deal with him. you know like they could promote the fight you know i don't you know do even do like an 80-20 type thing like in boxing right like like anne francis will promote it you take 80% of the profit but and just use his name i mean it's a moitai like they have amazing moitai fights they don't have much heavy weights over there you know it's particularly in asia but anyway good i don't think one championship has some money to pay right now i just got their schedule for next year like every card's taking place in looping these stadium like they don't have i don't think they have any money

anymore like I think they're running low on on cashers the reason why like I don't think they're paying well I think they're really to be fair like they I do think they're really tapping into the uh moitai more so than the mama I know they got a Japanese card or a Japan card right yeah yeah at least one maybe do they have more than one because I know they have at least one my guy they they they want to bring my guy over to fight on that and I mean that's a I don't know that to me that's like a perfect time to try to get Francis right Because Japanese love, you know, big guys, right? They love the heavyweights.

They love those types of fights. If they could get Francis, again, I don't know all the financials of promoting a fight and everything. But even if they told Francis, look, like, you take 95% of the profits. Like, we're just going to put on the card and promote you. You know, all we want our money back for the promotion part. That's all we need is just to break even there. Like, he brings a shit ton of eyeballs there. But that goes back.

back to the, that goes back to the heart of the money thing, though. Like, it's not, and I think at this point for Francis, it's about competition. Like, it's not about money. He has plenty of money. And so, like, is it, is he going to, I mean, could he go over and fight a guy? Which I think would be a very dangerous fight because Malikin's really good. But, like, is it still worth it to you to go over there and get paid a couple million dollars to fight this guy versus knowing that you could potentially fight a John Jones or a Tom Aspinall?

And, you know, like I said, I think at this point, I think we're on the right track. Like, it's about legacy. And there's no legacy in fighting. random dudes in one there's no legacy in fighting a random dude in pfl yeah i feel that that's just i guess kind of my own uh thought process you know with the like i'd love to see him fight anatole i'd love to see him fight rico verhoeven yeah you know in like glory or something or even you know one of the lesser guys like a barter har or is it not that he's really much lesser anything but you know just i i want to see him in these cool fights

I think there's a lot of great fights out there for them. I think there's other great heavyweight fights, too. I think Joshua Parker would be an awesome fight. I would pick Joshua Parker to beat him or Daniel Dubois to beat him. But I think they can make some great fights. I think Rico would make an amazing fight. I think that would be so sick. Or even Alistar, right?

I don't think Alistar is going to fight again. But, you know, I don't know. But think about Rico. Like, Rico just left glory. He gave up his title, left glory. I don't know how much he made him glory. I have to imagine they paid him pretty well to be over there. is like a 14-year champion or whatever.

And the rumor is, like, he's looking at boxing, he's looking at potentially going to MMA. Because, like, I think Rico, for everything he's done and maybe the greatest kick, one of the greatest kickboxers ever, if not maybe the greatest heavyweight kickboxer when I think about all the legacy. And I know, maybe the heavyweight division isn't what it once was like the K-1 days.

We had Ernesto, he used to those guys. But I think he's looking now and he's like, yeah, like everyone loves me in Europe, but if I go to the United States, I could walk down the street and not a single person know who I am. You know what I mean? like they just wouldn't he's just not that level of star and so he's like and he was trained with tom aspinall and you're like maybe even though he's like i think he's like 36 37 he's like

i got a couple good years left i want him i want to i want to do something big i want you know he talked about fighting francis in boxing i know he told me that before that that's a possibility and i know there was talks about maybe him going to ufc because of tom like tom's his boy you know he trains with tom all the time get a couple of fights to the uc and you know at this stage in the game because wrestling i mean you know maybe don't throw him in there gable steveson but like you know you know you know Like, there's a world. So, like, even Rico. Like, Rico's one of the most accomplished guys in kickboxing history.

And I'm sure he's probably made pretty good money doing it. There's still something back to his head, like, man, I missed out on things I could have done. You know what I mean? Like, and so now with, you know, 37, probably got a couple three years left in his career, he's thinking about those things, whether it's boxing or MMA. And so it's natural. That's all I'm getting that. It's natural with Francis, too. Like, I'm sure it's not a money thing.

It's a, man, I never got to fight John. I never got to fight Tom. I never got this fight. I never got. That's what we're talking about like the regret. It's not regret in terms of like, I'm sad I left. It's more like, man, what could have been? You know, and I think that's just natural.

This is a natural reaction. Yeah, absolutely. I just know what I'd like to see. And I would like to see if I'd fight John and Aspinall and all those guys. But it's just not going to happen. And I think we know. I mean, never say never, especially in the sport of MMA. The likelihood is very, very, very, very low,

especially with Dana doing a smear campaign on him now it's like he's just stoking the flames right now now they're really anti each other I don't see it ever happening so you know I just think of other options of how could we get to see Francis in some good fights man yeah we'll see um support for this show comes from Odu

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By doing so, we can create lasting change. If you don't smoke, don't start. If you smoke, quit. If you don't quit, change. Visit unsmoked.ca. Matt, we got to talk about it before we get out of here. And that is, of course, the big fight on Friday, which is Francis, or Francis, Jake Paul versus Anthony Joshua.

Now, let me, let me posit this so we don't get sued because we, every time we've talked about this, we only talked about it a couple times. Every time we talk about, like, if this is legit, we're going to eliminate that from today because I don't want Jake Paul's lawyers reaching out, but your question legitimately. Okay, we're going to, let's just, let's treat this like a real fight. Anthony Joshua is fighting Jake Paul on Friday. You are a very accomplished fighter in your own right, Matt, and you know the sport, which is one of the reasons why I love doing this podcast because anyone can say,

oh, you don't know about the sport. Well, guess what I do a frickin podcast of one of the greatest UFC fighters, one of the nastest UFC fighters of all time. You know boxing. You are a massive boxing fan, way bigger than I am. You know a lot more about boxing than I ever will in terms of, like, the competition. how do you see this fight playing out? And because I'm getting a little bit of vibes of like Connor Floyd

where like a lot of the MMA guys are Demetrius Johnson they're going to come out and say, I think Jake can win, he can knock him out. But all the serious boxing people are like, no, no, he's going to get murder. Like Andy Joshua was going to murder. And like I said, we're taking out the question of legitimacy and we're also going to take out like if he's healthy. I don't know.

Maybe that's part of it. Like he's not really healthy. I have no idea. This is a one-on-one fight, Anthony Joshua, Jake Paul, in a boxing ring. What kind of a chance do you actually give Jake Paul beyond, like, the hell merry, out-of-nowhere kind of shot? I mean, look, when we're doing, like, these prediction-type things, all we can look at is, like, what's on paper, like, their history, what have we seen in the past? You never know what's going to happen. In a fight, everybody has a fucking chance, period.

right buster douglas beat mike tyson right everybody has a fucking chance on paper there is zero indication at all that jake paul has any chance so how do you how do we not go with that now now here's the thing is when some of these people make these predictions like oh jake paul's going to beat them or whatever you know i think it's it almost has to be like a cop out right it's kind of a win-win situation if he goes out there and beats him you're the you fucking call it you predicted it you're the man he doesn't beat him you'd be like bro i didn't you think i really thought that you know what i mean and i think it was kind of the same thing with connor you know what i mean and look and if you're wrong about it like nobody remembers and they're not like oh he's a

fucking idiot you know he wasn't an idiot for thinking that shit it's like but if you make the prediction everybody's going to remember it right and everybody's like oh wow like you must be the fight expert like you are not a fight expert for calling jake paul to win like you are going against everything that a fight expert would ever take into account like he has no there's zero reason whatsoever to think that jake paul has a chance against Anthony joshua does that mean that he he can't go out there and win like they're throwing punches punches come fast right And random things happen. Could Jake Paul go out there and wing a punch and Anthony Joshua just, you know,

be looking at some girl in the crowd or something and, you know, or, you know, maybe Jake Paul put some fucking Zekyll in his drink or stuff. I mean, like, we don't know what's going to, like, Joshua could wake up on the wrong side of the bed to have a shitty night of sleep the night before or, you know, his girl come in an hour before the fight and, like, hey, let me suck your dick, you know, and it's not a big deal. And then he comes out all like, I'm comfortable, bro. I don't need to do shit.

I mean, like, who knows, right? You could supposite a fucking 10 million scenarios, but on paper, not a single one of them add up. So fuck it. Like, I don't like the idea of, like, trying to call out some bold prediction because, you know, like I feel like I know something everybody else doesn't know. It's like, no, you don't. Like, what we know is what we have seen, and what we have seen shows no indication

that Jake Paul has a chance in a legitimate boxing match against a former multiple-time world champion Anthony Joshua. Yeah, and it's funny because I see, like, I've seen Jake or his team or whoever posted a couple of the highlights of Daniel Dubois knocking him out and Ruiz. And I'm like, I know Ruiz was a massive underdog,

but Ruiz is a, like, he's an accomplished boxer. like he's a very accomplished boxer like you can't see there and say the guy is a bum like it's not like he's coming in with his biggest win being Anderson Silva like I mean you know the one thing that you can say about that is like I do think Anthony Joshua massively underrated and uh Andy Ruiz and okay maybe you go beat him like okay Anthony Joshua probably massively underrated you too but like yeah okay yeah and and and remember when they did when they did when they did the rematch, you know, and, but I think the difference here is we actually have a sample to judge this by, and it's the Francis Ngano fight. Francis Ngano is a six-foot-four nuclear-powered heavyweight. I don't care that he's not a very skilled heavyweight. I don't care that he's the most skilled boxing world. I don't care who's 0-1 going against Tyson Fury.

He is a guy who legitimately, if he catches you, he can put you out. I don't care who you are. He's got that kind of power. Anthony Joshua was like, I'm not fucking. around. I'm not getting knocked down in the third round and everyone's going to be mocking me for the rest of my life that I got knocked down by her. So he went out there and absolutely terminated

Francis and gone. It wasn't close. I don't know, did Francis not a punch in that fight? He just absolutely walked through him. That's our same. If this was happening before that fight, that fight never happened, I might have that, like, slight question. Like, we did have Tyson Fury. Like, is he

taking this seriously? Like, is he even training because, like, he knows he could be Jake Paul? But we have a sample he fought it he fought francis and god who was like i'm not going to fuck around and find out i'm going to put this guy down and do it violently and he did it inside two rounds what are the nastiest knockouts you ever seen i mean i don't i don't think he's going to play around with jake paul i don't think he wants to go in there like jake paul hit him i don't think he wants like even getting even getting knocked down he wins the fight he comes back and knocks on

the fifth round i don't think he wants on his resume they got knocked down by jake paul right and and we talk about samples i mean that's one sample right of him fighting you know someone that's not a necessarily the great greatest boxer but anthony joshua has fought some very very

good maybe even great professional boxers and beat some right he's lost a couple right i mean he's not a he doesn't have a perfect record but you know the guys like clitchco right he beat fucking clichgo motherfucker like jake paul

You're not Klitschko, okay? Get that out of your head. Dillion White. Joshua Parker. Right? Like, he's beat some really fucking, like, Joshua is a good champion. He's not a great champion, right? But he is a good champion.

I mean, I think he was a gold. He meddled in the Olympics. Gold medal. He won't a gold medal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the dude's been boxing for a long time.

Like, he is a very, very good. champion boxer. He's not a great. He's not a Terrence Crawford or of Mani Pachiao or a Floyd Mayweather. He's just not that guy, right?

But he's a very, very good champion. So we talk about sample size. Francis, yeah, is one sample. But okay, well, now let's look at Jake Paul's sample. He hasn't beat a single legitimate boxer ever.

He's only fought one. I mean, I would argue, Anderson Silva was a legitimate boxer, right? I mean, he's not, you know, well-known, you know, world champion boxer or anything. But I think he's a legitimately good boxer. I mean, I think he was, what, 49 at the time, though? So, you know, Tommy Fury is like your only true sample, who's not a heavyweight, by the way, and not a world champion by any stretch of the imagination.

Like, if this was Tommy Fury against Anthony Joshua, we'd be laughing our asses off right now because Anthony Josh would absolutely The commission wouldn't even allow it Yeah so like They wouldn't improve the fight And everyone's talking like everyone's The one thing that kind of drives me nuts In this whole thing

When they're talking about the Jake Paul is like Oh man but Jake Paul's got power Now I'm not gonna deny he's not He's got some power but like He hasn't knocked anyone Like legitimately knocked anyone out Since Tyron Woodley Which he did it in a rematch

On short notice Like he beat Mike Perry Yeah But he knocked him down a bunch And Perry just kept getting up And he was why He didn't put Perry out. Like, he didn't knock Perry out.

He hurt Perry badly, and he knocked me out a couple of times. But he didn't put him out. And that's a guy who's legitimately a welterweight. You know what I mean? Like, this whole idea that Jake Paul's got this, like, nuclear power in his hands. I'm like, I don't, he didn't put down Nate Diaz. He didn't put down Anderson Silva. He didn't put, like, guys who are smaller and not boxers, he didn't finish them with punches.

Like, he didn't. Julio Cesar Chavez is a husk of a fighter. Like, he is not, he was not good in his prime. He is not, he was not good in his prime. prime and now he's like 40 years old and he knew he was on his way to fucking Mexican prison the dude is he couldn't put him out that fight sucked I didn't watch it I watched the highlights which there weren't very many I've never heard that description of a husk of a fire I like that but like you couldn't put him down and and Chavez is

worlds away from Anthony Joshua in terms of like actually being an accomplished boxer that's like I'm just playing I'm just playing the odds here Matt like yes you're right It's a fight, and anything can happen. But if this is legit, and I don't want to get sued, it's legit, and then Josh was not hurt. He's not going in there with two broken hands. This is not going to end well for Jake Paul. Now, on the other side of that, does Jake Paul gain some legitimacy for fighting a real heavyweight, a legit, nasty heavyweight? Sure.

But, I mean, like, this almost feels like Jake's, like, it's almost like the teetering point for Jake. be like, okay, I'm not going to be a world champion, so I'm going to go back to fighting KSI and Nate Diaz and Anderson Stiller, whoever else is out there. It's almost like, I need this to kind of show people I'm really trying. He gets destroyed by Anthony Joshua, and then he comes on the other and says, okay, let me go fight, you know, KSI, let me go fight Dylan Danis, whatever the fuck. Like, yes, in a way he still wins, but like there is no world where he should even be competitive with Anthony. Because, like, Anthony Joshua, like, we can talk about, like, the great, like,

Deontay Wilder, you can say is, like, a guy who was never really a good boxer, but he, man, he had nuclear power. And there's a lot of times, Deonti Wilder was saved by that power. Like, he would be getting out boxed for, like, six rounds, and then he just hit the guy of the right hand, and they'd go out. Anthony Joshua is actually a good boxer. Like, he's actually a pretty good technical boxer for heavyweight. Yeah. That's what I said. On paper, like, there's, unless it's rigged. I mean, there's no reason at all to think that Jake Paul has

any iota of a chance here. There's just not. And to your point, look, I respect him for doing this, assuming it's not rigged. I respect it. Like, I respect it massively, right? And the fact that this fight is even being made,

even if rigged, like, ups my respect for Jake Paul, whether he gives a, fuck about my respect you're not right he has enough money probably doesn't care right but you have to respect the fact that he's going in there and and doing this with anthay joshua assuming it's not rigged does that mean that he has a chance of winning no i mean i think i have as good of a chance as i don't know going and on a date with scarlet johansen tonight you know It's like, probably not going to happen.

Now I'm Scarlett's listening and, you know, if she happens to listen to the Fighter versus Writer podcast and she's about it, then that happens tonight, then, you know, it's a great world. And I will, and I'll cheer on Jake Paul all the way. Probably not happening, though. Yeah. And like I said, I do. I have a lot of respect for it.

And I said this when we first talked about the, a few weeks ago, I said, I feel like in a way, he almost got bullied into this fight because people mocked him so badly for the Durante Davis fight, like 135 pounder, and it literally looked like a complete mismatch when they stood next to each other. And then that dropped out. The whole thing happened. He said, well, I got to go in the complete opposite direction. Let's go Anthony Joshua.

And, yeah, like, he's going to, he has my respect for taking this challenge. But, you know, and I'm sure he's getting paid a lot of money to do it. So, like, you know, you can't, you fault him. for that, but it's, it does feel eerily similar to the Connor Floyd fight where people are trying to talk themselves into giving Connor a chance. And like, yeah, talk yourself into it, but realistically, there's no world where Jake Paul should win around, much less beat Anthony Joshua. I'm just being honest. Like, let's not kid ourselves. Just like Floyd gave away an early round to Connor. Like, oh my God, Connor didn't win around. Floyd gave him a couple

rounds to kind of get a read on him figure out what he was doing unorthodox strikes coming at him that he's not used to which floyd is always done yeah he's literally like never not done that i mean i think early in his career when they're like four or six round fights you can't do that right but all of his 10 12 round fights i mean he was doing that on the regular he was never an early fighter yeah he would he would download information then fourth fifth round start picking you apart and absolutely decimate you because he knows the game and and and like Connor's actually really good boxer. I was impressed with his performance against Floyd.

Connor is a good boxer, you give him that. But there's strategy and tactics that you have to box to learn, right? Floyd went through the Olympics, you know, four rounds. He went through the six-round fights, and then he went through the eight-round. He'd learn all these tactics along the way of how to win a fight. And if you don't go through that process,

just like Anthony Joshua has done, if you don't go through that process you don't learn those tactics you can't expect to just go in and beat a chess player playing checkers yeah and when you talk about like anthony joshua has a glass chin he has a glass chin against andy ruiz who is a freaking i mean that dude that dude that's hard and daniel dubois who is legitimately one of the two or three best heavyweights in the sport right now like he lost to usik who is the best heavyweight in the sport by a wide margin right now like how bad and i was i remember i was actually at when When Jake fought Tyron Woodley and Cleveland, Daniel Dubois was on the undercard. And I remember watching Daniel Dubois was like, God, I was like, damn, this guy's good. Like, he's really good. And I think he won like a first or a second round knockout. And I was just like, damn, man, he's skilled. And he's like, you know, we're 27, 28 years old, very much in the prime his career right now.

And I think when Usik walks away, Dubois might be the guy. Like, he may end up becoming the guy in heavyweight once Usik is gone. But it just, there's just no world. Like this is, you're talking yourself into it like the Connor thing, where it's like, oh, Conner's got a chance. I know. Conner's got a quote-unquote chance, but he really didn't because Floyd was never going to lose that.

Floyd was never allowed himself to get beat by Conner. Like when Ray Mercer came to fight in the UFC and whether he was Ray Mercer, right? You're talking about James Tony. James Tony, thank you. Yeah, James Tony. Yeah, when he comes to fight in the UFC and there's like some, you know,

the boxers do the same shit like, oh, well, we fucking hit him. He's going to. He's going to shoot a John Smithlow single. Game's over, bro. It's the same thing we're dealing with here. Like, Jake Paul's going to throw some punches and Josh was going to jab his brains out

until he lands a big right and game's going to be over. Maybe a hook. I don't know. Maybe an uppercut. It's weird, though, like the MMA guys are the ones who are being like, Jake Paul's got a shot. And, like, all the boxers are like Jake Paul has no... The guys are no boxing.

It's so weird because Jake isn't like an MMA guy. He's like an MMA standard or something. Like, for some, like, everyone wants to be, and I get, you're right. Everyone wants to be the contrarian, right? Like, you want to be the guy to pick the upset. Like, the, like, you, and by the way, and by the way, proudly so, by the way, you, when you talk about, you know, picking Holly Holme to beat Rhonda Rousey, you're absolutely right.

You should stand on that because you were one of the people who's like, I think Holly Holmes's going to go out there and do what she did and beat Ronda. But even then, that was still a more even competition. Like, Rhonda, you know, even though Holly wasn't as accomplished at that point, like, she had proven she's a mixed martial artist. We're asking Jake Paul in his first real. Second, I guess, real boxing match. If you want to consider the Tommy Fury, a real boxing match.

He's going into a second match against one of the five best heavyweights in the sport. Like, he's not going against the number 20 guys. He's not going against some up-and-comers, not a smoker. He's only one of the five best heavyweights in the sport. And, Damon, don't you just feel like it's a silly conversation? It is. I mean, I know it's like part of the news and it's, you know, we got to talk about it. And you just feel every now and then in this sport, these things come up that become big topics of conversation.

And you just feel silly even entertaining it, right? Where I'm just like, like, okay, you really think Jake Paul is going to win. Okay, you're dumb. Again, you don't either you don't really think it or you're dumb. All right. There's no like logical reason to believe it. I know this is, I guess I'm really insulting, but it's going back a little bit to like the Ronda beating, you know. Beating Kane Blasquez.

Yeah, whatever it was. Like, oh, she's got a shot. Like, all right. Like, come on now. Let's slow down on this. Like, you know, it's like, she's got a shot. Okay. Okay.

Like, it's ridiculous. She doesn't have a shot. She's not going to be. And it feels very much like this right now. It's like, oh, she's got a shot. Yeah. Everyone has a shot. I could walk in there and potentially like, yeah.

He could trip on the stairs coming in and I could throw a punch and he could fall down. Like, yes, technically it could happen. Is it likely to happen? I mean, Pinto's have a chance at beating Ferraris, right? If the Ferrari wrecks, you know, it's like, oh, well, there's a chance. And it's like, yeah, there is a chance. There, you got me.

Like, I can't argue. If Joshua breaks his leg, there's a chance. Yeah. Yeah, you know, high speed, you know, there's a chance. You know, there's a chance. You know, Joshua slipped. and mentally slips, right? And Jake Lanz out, yes, there's a chance.

And yes, there's a higher, I guess, okay, my analogy, right? There's a higher chance to Jake Paul beat Santhi Joshua than a Pinto beat in a Ferrari, right? I mean, okay, again, you know, it just feels like such silly talk, you know? Like, there's just no fucking reason at all to believe that Jake Paul has a chance. Does that mean he doesn't win? No. But is there a reason to believe he's going to win? No. There's not. There's no reason to think that the fucking Browns are going to beat, you know, I don't know, the Patriots. You know, it's like, can they do it? Yeah. Sports shit happens. Is there a reason to believe it? No, there is not. Yeah. So a little preview for next week. Matt, you're getting ready to go out on vacation. We were going to record a quick reaction.

podcast on Saturday for the Paul Joshua fight so it may be a very short podcast because if Joshua Knox Mountain like two rounds we may not have a whole lot to talk about but we'll react to it very briefly and then you're going to go on vacation and we'll be out until the new year we're going to come back and kind of give our

year previews we always do I've got to pull our picks from last year to see how good or bad we were in our champion position we do one internally at MMA fighting and I think I picked three champions correctly who were still champions at the end of the year I think I picked three that's still not a great record I think I picked Valentina and I care

who else it was but yeah I didn't I didn't do well three's not bad in my opinion yeah three out of everybody I think I got three but yeah so I didn't do great on the old picks but we'll see what they were and we'll do our predictions like who's got who's gonna be champion the end of the year who's got the best chance holding on the title you also

when we talk about that you got to look at like the kind of the anomaly kind of shit that happens right like you might have I probably pick Pantosia to still be champion right and then he follows and breaks his arm. You know what I mean? Yeah.

It's like there's a lot of... Sports fucking crazy, bro. It is. It is. You never know what's going to happen. Not to rehash too much, but like... MMA people pick in Jake Paul. MMA's a crazy sport where fucking crazy shit happens.

Boxing is not. There's fucking amazing boxing fights. It's like, Gaudi Ward, Cotto Crallis, or not, Krodo. Castillo Corrales. I mean, the list goes on and on throughout history. But does huge upsets happen? Very, very fucking rare. It is not, like, that's what makes MMA what it is, right?

Like, that's part of its appeal. It's like anything can happen and it's craziness, it's chaos. And, you know, you can lose a fight in so many different ways, so quickly. In boxing, it's just, it's very fucking rare. Yeah, Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson. and um it wasn't and even and even that we talked about like that being one of the big

wasn't buster douglas like had like 30 pro fights at that point it wasn't like he was like yeah it wasn't like he was actually a lot of people don't know like buster was a really really good fighter he just broke a lot like everybody knew he was like a quitter like that's just what he did he get hit and he quit and they're like dude well Tyson hits him he's fucking gonna be quitting for sure right that day he just didn't fucking quit right his mom died all you know everybody knows the story

But this is rare, rare circumstances. Yeah, I was just, I was watching TV the other day and Ocean's 11, the movie was on. I saw Lennox Lewis is in that movie. And it reminds you, I always tell you, Linux Lewis is my favorite boxer. I love Linux Lewis. And I was looking at his record. I was going back and thinking about like the Rockman fight when he got caught and knocked out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And everyone talks about it. But it wasn't like Hassein Rockma was some bum, like who was not an accomplished guy in his own right. No, and they did the rematch. Linux tore him apart and beat him and knocked him out, you know, in similar. fashion. But once again, like Buster Douglas, you can say all things. Buster Douglas was 30 pro fights or whatever it was when he fought tight. It wasn't like a, he wasn't

10 in one and his most accomplishment was beating Nate Diaz or whatever the version of that is. So, yeah, even that, like that's a, you're absolutely right. It's a huge upset when he beat Mike Tyson, but it wasn't like Buster Douglas was an influencer boxer. It wasn't. Yeah, and realistically

like it was a huge upset partially because of the stigma of Mike Tyson and partially because the odds were so tremendous. But it was probably, you know, if everything was fair and there was no influence from the odds and everything, it was probably on paper a closer fight than people gave it credit for, even though, you know, everybody, at that time, Mike was just invincible, like,

and nobody gave anybody a chance against Mike. And Buster was just another guy, you know, most people weren't even, that pay-per-view wasn't even a big deal at that time. It was like, hey, he's going over Japan. show people over in Japan who Mike Tyson is and make some money and fight some bum from Columbus, Ohio. But what people found out

was Columbus Ohio ain't fucking around, bro. Yeah, and then Buster found out his next fight. Who do you fight after that? He fought somebody. It didn't go well for a guy. I can't remember who it was. It didn't work out too well for Buster.

So, yeah, like even that. Like, yeah, huge upset. But Buster was like a 30 and 0 or 22 and 2 or whatever number. Like, good fighter. Sorry, Jake's not that. Yeah, I don't get a chance. So it might be a very quick podcast next week.

We may be talking about, you know, where you're sending flowers to Jake Paul's hospital room when it's all said and done. So, but we will do a quick podcast next week. They're going to be off until the new year. Matt, people want to check you out, support you. Where can they go? What can they do? Adam Immortal, Instagram, and Twitter. The Immortal My Brow on Facebook.

And as always, we appreciate everyone tuning in. Make sure to check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple, Spotify. And, of course, over on the best website in the world. MMAfighting.com. We'll be back with our reaction podcast to Paul Joshua as we close out 2025, moving into 2026. For Matt Brown, I'm Damon Martin. Thank you as always for tuning into another edition of The Fighter versus the writer. We will see you soon. Thanks for tuning in. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.