MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Ilia Topuria Calling Out Terence Crawford and UFC Style Promotion Coming to Boxing

Episode Date: September 16, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to the fallout from Terence Crawford beating Canelo Alvarez in a historic showdown as well as UFC champion Ilia Topuria calling for a fight against Crawford in the ring. We’ll also discuss the proposed changes under the Muhammad Ali Revival Act that could potentially bring UFC style promotion to the sport of boxing and what that means for the athletes. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We'd love to talk, business. listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown and Matt. We are living in a world now where Diego Lopez is back on track, picks up a incredible knockout winner for Jean Silva. But I think the fight that everyone was buzzing over the weekend, of course, was Terrence Crawford putting on what I thought was a master class,

just absolutely beating Canello Alvarez. And the scorecards were closer, but it was in Vegas. And Canello always seems to get that. So I think the fact that all three judges scored her for Crawford, actually speaks to how much but when he actually had because I was just waiting for I was just waiting for a boxing judge

to mess that up. So yeah, obviously big, big boxing event, big UFC event and here we are in the aftermath of all that. Yeah, now I don't know if you remember I think when we first, when that fight was first announced, we were kind of talking about it.

And I think both of us were kind of on the same page, bro, like Crawford's a better boxer, but Connell is so much bigger than him. And then when we, as soon as I seen the way in, I was like, bro, they are not a huge size differential at all. like Crawford is actually way bigger than I thought he would be like I called I you know I put it out on Twitter I was like bro Crawford's gonna make him look amateurish and I didn't he didn't go that far you know

Canello's not ever gonna look amateurish I think I might have crossed the line there a little bit but you know Crawford did I think what I guess you'd say us in the know you know you know not to like to our own horns too much but like if you know you know right like like Canello's been gifted decisions in the past. And I mean, he's a great boxer, right? He's a very great boxer. But he's not on a Crawford level. You know, we know that.

Everybody should have known that. I think the biggest, it's funny, because when you watch the broadcast and then you listen to the pre-fight stuff, it seemed like everyone had the same opinion of, Crawford's better, Crawford's more technical, Crawford is a tactician, but Canella's big. that was literally like the argument and I know that's I know that really belittles like how good canello is canela is an incredible boxer and incredible champion in his own right but I just think

really that was like I said on Twitter last and I said I was going I was picking derrens crawford from day one I said it feels like the last couple years canello's kind of been checked out he just doesn't seem like that into it as once like he's just kind of cruising through fights and I said I think his chin which he has one of the all-time great chins I said his chin and his size are what's going to keep it from a decision like it's going to keep it from being a knockout which not to pat myself too hard on the back. I think that's kind of the way it played out because he got tagged with some shots, man.

And I think if that had been a lower weight, I think Crawford probably could have gotten a knockout there. But I know scorecards were a little closer, but that's just boxing because judges suck everywhere. Even the fact they only had like a couple three rounds apart, but I thought it was a pretty clear win for Crawford. But yeah, I mean, it's exactly. I'm not trying to pat ourselves in the back too much here.

But when this fight got made, this is kind of what you and I talked about. Yeah, and one thing we cannot forget to talk about. You have to give so much props to Canelo, for one, for taking the fight, and for two, taking the loss like a fucking champion. And the way a champion should take the fight, he gave all credit to Terrence Crawford. You know, he said, I'll be back. You know, I'm training hard.

I feel good. You know, he didn't make a single excuse, didn't blame it on anybody. He just said, look, Crawford was better. I'll be back. And I love that. Just the way that he phrased it, the way he spoke about it, you know, you got to have so much respect for Canello. I love him as a boxer. I just don't think he's as great as people make him out to be, you know.

But, I mean, I love him. I wish that he was that great, you know, like he's like he's the guy that I wish was everything that everybody a lot of people make him out to be. But, you know, unfortunately he's not. But he's done some great things. and, you know, he's got a legacy to be very, very proud of. And I don't think he really needs to fight anymore. I'm not sure why exactly he wants to keep fighting.

But, hey, I'll always watch Canello fight. I think Canello, like, especially, you know, like, after he lost to Mayweather and then kind of made that rise, like, he was so young when he fought Mayweather, and then kind of made that rise, just kept winning and winning and winning. I think I think Canello is very good, by the way. I'm not knocking Canello Alvers. I think he's a very good boxer, but I think a lot of that was also because he was so popular. Like, he was like the Connor McGregor of boxing. Like, when he, when Conello fought, the crowd followed.

Like, he was just that dude. Now, you don't stay. Certainly a Mexican boxing, right? Yeah. And he just became a massive star. And to his credit, like I said, you know, I mean, there's a couple of fights in there. Like, I thought he definitely lost the triple G. There's a couple of fights in there where I thought, man, he got some gifted some decisions.

but you don't stay on top that long without being good. You know what I mean? Like he's a very, very good boxer. But I just thought technically, and I'm not going to sit there in lie and say I'm a Terrence Crawford expert. I just have watched, you know, a multitude of his championship fights in recent years. And I'm just like, God, this guy is so good. Like, he's such a – what's scary about Terrence Crawford is, like,

we talked about this with Arder Benebi. Like how he goes out there and just balls people and knocks him out. But then you see him against the guy like Bivel and you're like, they're skill. Like Bivel's just got so much. skill and he saw the adjustments he made in the rematch. Crawford is a weird blend of power and technique. Like he doesn't just go out there looking to knock your head off.

Like he can go out there just out technique you for 12 rounds. Yeah, absolutely. He's a, I thought you were going to go to where I'm about to go. He has that weird blend of technique and tactical work with savagery. Like when it's time to get down and dirty, like he is absolutely willing to get down dirty. And a lot of people, that's why they were picking Canello. They're like, dude, Terrence is going to get fired up.

He's going to hit him a couple of times, get fired up, get in the pocket. Cannello's going to catch him with one of those big shots. It didn't work out that way, right? Like Terrence got in there, got dirty with him, and was still so slick and smooth and able to pull out his interests, his exits. I mean, he's just a freaking master. And Canneau said after it kind of surprised me that he said he's better than Floyd. And I was like, damn, like, that's a big call.

And in some ways, I mean, you know, he's done things that Floyd hasn't done. You know, he went up, you know, fought up, well respected in his prime champion, skipped a weight division to do it, two weights up. You know, that's pretty impressive. Floyd's done some damn impressive things. You know, you're not really comparing apple to apples. apples there. So, you know, I don't want to knock Floyd at all.

He's done some great things. but what Terrence did this weekend was fucking impressive. So let me, well, I'm not trying to get your trash about Floyd, but I think the question is coming out of the fight, like, because Terrence is 37 going on 38, like he's probably towards Intel in his career, like how much more does he have left to prove? Probably not a lot.

42 and 0, I believe, was the record after Saturday, 42 and O, obviously it was an incredible finish streak until those last two fights. And it was both those fights where they went, you know, up in wait, like to win, you know, win fights. now he's the first ever three division undisputed champion like he's now done it across three divisions with undisputed titles um where where do you i mean i know it's a hard question to answer without like really digging into it but like where do you put terence crawford in terms of like all-time grades of this era because i'm not going to sit here i don't like i don't like comparing

fighters like it's kind of like when you compare football players now versus the football players like the 60s like i'm not saying the players in the 60s weren't amazing but like the sport has just come so far since those days. It's hard to compare them. But like, where do you put? And I think Crawford, Mayweather's a little closer. There's not like Mayweather retired like 20 years ago. Like he was 50-0.

You know, he's like, that was 2017 when he fought Connors. It wasn't like that long ago. But like, where do you put Terrence? Because like, he did something no one's ever done last night. And his record was impeccable. I mean, I remember when he fought Errol Spins. I was like, man, this would be such a good fight. It wasn't a good fight.

Terrence just went out there and beat the little shit out of him. where do you put him? Because he was finishing people. I think that's a little different with him and Floyd. He didn't go out and just beat people. Floyd beat people. Don't get me wrong. But he didn't go out there and demolish them.

Like he would just kind of point them. And I think he had a, I think there's at least one loss in there and that he should have had during that time. I can't say that with Terrence. I can't sit there and look at Terrence's record. He lost that decision. I can say that about Floyd.

But where do you, where do you put Terrence in terms of like all-time grades now? Man, I feel like he's still got a ways to go to be up there with Floyd. in that sense, even though I think skill-wise, like, I think he's better than Floyd. Like, the two fought, I think he would beat Floyd, you know, and Floyd's not an easy guy to beat. So that's, you know, that's a tough call. And especially with Terrence's style where it's kind of slick versus slick, you know what I mean?

Like, that's a tough, tough way to beat Floyd. Yeah, I think you'd really have to dig in, you know, and I just haven't dug into his whole, the holisticness of his career like that just yet you know i don't know what all of his credentials are i mean obviously he's been a champion and um at 147 and you know i to be honest i don't really remember that well so yeah no i'd have to dig in man i don't want to speak out a turn on that one yeah i just think skill wise like doing what he did on saturday i'm just like that's pretty remarkable and that's where it gets like things get so subjective right like um you know like mike tyson is considered one of the greats by so many people because of that skill not because of his

damn record right and and you know and i get in this argument probably about once a year you know i'll say something on twitter right like like Tyson wasn't all that or whatever and you know the all the fan boys come out you're a fucking idiot you know and it's like we're like just look at his resume but But yeah, skill-wise, you know, if you go skill for skill, you're like, well, like Tyson may be the greatest heavyweight of all time. But that's subjective, though, you know what I mean? Or that's like opinion. You know, like, we don't know what would have actually happened at Customato and I died,

right? So, like, you know, we don't know what would happen if Terrence and Floyd fought in their primes, right? I don't know what would happen if Manny and Floyd fought in their primes, you know? So I'd hate getting into that because Terrence has looked. extremely skillful and you know hasn't really shown any weaknesses from both stances which is pretty it's crazy right like he can go out he can go south paul orthodox pretty pretty flawlessly and yeah i just think it's like i said i mean doing what he did to go up multiple

weight classes what's so impressive because it's not like he went up and did it against some bum he didn't go up against some no-name guy like you know because like we've i i think like i don't want to i'm not i'm not knocking, I'm certainly not knocking George St. Pierre. He's an all-time grade. But I think like when he went up to middle-eight and he's like, oh, Michael Bisping is a champion. I think there's a chance for me to become a champion. I think he saw that as a fight he could win

a little easier than maybe say at the time a Robert Whitaker or YoL. Romero, who were also kind of knock on the door at that point. And I'm not criticizing George St. Pierre. George St. Pierre is an all-time legend, but I think there's a reason why he did that and why he never, you know, the Anderson-Silva fight didn't have it when he was in his prime.

But I think, I think, I think, Crawford going up and doing it. And I'm not even going to say Canello's in his prime. I don't think he's in his prime right now. But still, he's a good boxer who is that much bigger. He was like, you know, three weight classes bigger. That counts for something. And to go up there and do what he did, I just think it's super impressive.

So I'm not sitting there looking to say like, you know, put down Floyd to build up, to build up Terrence. But I think Terrence being 42 and O and I think that went last night just kind of like, it does put him in a very special category, I guess what I'm saying. Yeah. And I guess the question really becomes when you kind of talk about. that is where is Conello in his career, right?

There's a, like, we don't really know if he's in his prime or not. He hasn't fought top level guys for a few fights now. I think of the last top level guy that he did fight, you know, very highly respected person. It's been a little while. I mean, I think Demetre Biddle's probably the guy he fought. Which he lost, which he lost to, yeah. He went up a weight class to lose.

Yeah, so, I mean, I kid is his weight class. So, you know, it's hard to say whether he's even in his prime or not. You know, we kind of assume that he's not, but he very well could be in his prime right now. Yeah, so that's a tough one because we don't know. You know, and I think that's the one question, one of the question marks we could put on, you know, putting Terrence is one of the all-time grades right now is like, okay, well, yeah, you accomplish that thing, but was it against the older Canello? And the only thing I'm going by is like Conello said, he felt great, you know, and it's not like he looked bad. He looked like Conello. He looked like

like he looked, you know. Terrence was just better. Yeah, I mean, it's not like, it's not like Canella, even though I've said recently, I think Connell is kind of cruising. Like, I don't think he's out there, like, showing all new tricks or, you know, just improving or I don't, I don't necessarily, I'd say he's in his prime, but he's still winning. You know, it's not like he's going out there and losing fights he should be winning. Like, he's winning, like, that's why I said, like, I don't, I'm not going to sit there and say he's like, you know, just, you know, completely past his prime. I think he looked disinterested in his last few fights, but I think fighting against him,

like Crawford got him interested. I think he went out there looking to win last night. And I think that was the most telling thing in the fight. There were a couple times where he just looked so frustrated because he couldn't land on Crawford. And Crawford was piecing him up a little bit. And he just looked, I don't say pissed off. And he's just like, God, like you just see the frustration growing of combinations

and moves that would put other guys away that Crawford just didn't fall for. And you could see, like, I think he was, I think he was 100% in on this fight. I think this is exactly what Conella needed because I don't think he just was. I don't think he's really, you know, was it William Skull? Was the guy, I don't think he's just, I don't think he's, like, motivated by those fights. Crawford was, and he couldn't, and Crawford just outboxed him. Yeah, and we've seen that look on Canella's face before is the thing.

That's why, you know, I hate to sound like a Canella hater, because I'm actually a Connell lover. But, like, we've seen that in fights before. We're getting out of at times. Erzlandi, Lara was probably, in my opinion, was an egregious decision. I thought Laura beat him very handedly. There's other fights. And you can see those looks on his face,

which again is kind of my knock on Canelo, right? As much of a fan of Canelo as I am. It doesn't sound like I'm a fan of me either. You know, with all this talk we're having, but I love Canello, man. Like, and I'll go back to it. The post-fight speech, the post-fight press,

just that's who you want. won as a fucking champion. He's the fucking man. 100%. Yeah. I mean, it did make an excuse. Didn't say I got robbed or I should have won. No, he's, Crawford's a great fighter. I felt great. Like it was, you know, that's kind of like,

you want to lose with class, right? Like, I always remember back in the day, I always bring this up when Cody Garberat beat Dominic Cruz. And I remember to post my press conference, Dominic Cruz went in, took questions, didn't make any excuses, gave credit to Cody. He was better than me that night. And really just like, I was just in awe of watching him,

like handle it like a champion because we've seen the other side you know you've seen the other side where it's like all right dude like give the guy some credit like you did lose or whatever you know so i always remember dominant cruz in that moment like just being like yeah like he won like good for him and here's you know and he handled it like a champion i think that's true and canelo class pure class last night i thought that was too and like i said because a lot of ways like he's kind of like passing the torch a little bit because he was kind of like the boxer like everyone the biggest name boxer of this generation it's almost like he passed the torch even though i think crawber's at the tail in his career as well, but like, it's almost like, here, man, you've earned it.

Like, you've earned this spotlight. Go, go enjoy it's kind of the way I took it. And I hope Terrence is not at the tail end of his career. Like, I'm excited to see him in some fights in these heavier divisions now, which, who knows if he's going to stay or go down? I don't know. There's been, uh, boy, uh, Turkey. What did he just tweet a little bit ago?

Or somebody tweeted what he wrote a little bit ago. Um, did you see this? God, this. Oh my lord, I don't know why I'm not remembering He was the perfect fight Let me see what you find it real quick Yeah I gotta see I'm gonna see if I can find it too Because I loved what they said

And I was like dude I want to see Terrence do this Let's see Oh David Benavides Oh David Benavitas yeah now that would be interesting That would be fucking interesting right Because Terence met Canello kind of size for size. That's not happening with David Benavides. Like you better use every fucking amount of skill you got.

And we really don't know how good Benavides is either, right? We wanted to see him fight Canello. That was the fight to see how good he was. And he's not just, it just hasn't been able to get those big marquee fights, you know, to get his name out there. And that dude's a fucking killer. his jab is second to none so boy that is a hell of a fight

if it happens Turkey's gonna throw some money out there to make it happen right he is and Benavides went up and wait and he didn't look quite as as dominant when he went up in wait so it kind of feels like he's better at the lower weight so it kind of works out with Crawford coming up and yeah Benavides was the fight everyone said Conella needed to take and Conella never did so

it would kind of be like all right I beat Canella and I think Benavides would be a I get a whole different animal because he's just a different guy, bigger, longer, younger. So, yeah, that would be interesting. And the thing is, what Crawford had those big fights. Like, he's not, he's not getting as fired up. Excuse me.

Benavides has had that turkey funded, you know, Netflix, you know, however many millions of pay-per-views fight yet. Like, he's going to get fired the fuck up for that. Yeah. I think it would be great. I need to be a really good man. there's just certain guys that you want to see him get that opportunity. It's kind of like he likes to be in there.

Because Benavita's deserved to Kenelofi for the last like two and a half years. It just never happened. So it would kind of make a move up, right? I think that's why I moved up. Yeah. But I understand. Yeah, pretty much. I hate even bringing this up, Matt, but it is related to our sport.

And we are primarily a mixed martial arts show. And we've seen this a million other times. We remember it with Francis when he was calling out Tyson Fury. And of course, Connor calling out Floyd Mayweather. Now we got Elliott to pour you, who is, in my opinion, along with Islam Ocatchev, the number one pound-for-pound fighter in our sport right now. What he did, a fed-the-weight, what he did, light was pretty remarkable. But him just doubling down on calling out Terrence Crawford.

To me, it gets to be a bad look. Like, it almost looks like desperate in a way, because I'm just like, dude, you are the best fighter in the world. And we know, in a real fight, a mixed martial arts fight, Terence Crawford would stand zero chance in the octagon with Ilya. And I'm being honest about that. Why? Why? Like, why are you doing this? Why are you?

I'm going to knock you out and put you? Dude, you would not. If you got in a boxing ring under pure boxing rules with Terrence Crawford, he would piece you up and knock you out inside five rounds. Like, you would last as long as Terrence Crawford wanted you in there. Why? I don't get it. I don't get why you put so much effort into this.

Yeah, who knows? I wouldn't say 100% he beats Crawford. and then it may fight, though. Well, let's stick to boxing. Because his Teporty's style is boxing, you know. I've never seen Tepoy's shoot for a takedown. I think he did against the one

guy that rocked him early on in his career. John Herbert, I mean, I think he did it to Bryce Mitchell, too, and he submitted Bryce Mitchell remember correctly. So he's got, but I'm just saying, like, okay, but it really is, like, he's talking boxing. He's talking purely boxing. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know why

you say that. You talk like he has to train. Sporia has to train all the skills, kicks, knees, elbows, takedowns, grappling, cage work. Terrence has only trained his hands for however many years. I know he wrestled in high school or some shit like that. Like it's not a fair fight when you take away all your other weapons, you know? So like you're essentially saying I can beat you at, you know, in an unfair fight. unfair for me and I can beat you you know with the cards stacked against me so that that's a

that's a tough one to believe right it's a tough buy in there so but hey you know we're talking about it you know and that's what they want right that's what supporter wants we're talking about them uh more power to him man keep believing and if he can get that fucking payday i hope he does I just, I think my problem with it isn't that like it just, to me it reeks a desperation. Like, dude, you are one of the biggest stars on the planet right now. You have a chance to become like, I mean, you're already pretty damn special in your mixed martial arts career. And I think everyone in the world knows, like, where you rank in terms of mixed martial arts, which I'm not trying to knock boxing, but I fully admit, like, I'm not a boxing guy the way I'm an MMA guy.

And like, we saw, we've seen when boxers have tried MMA, the vast majority is not gone well. And that's not even when you're fighting the best to best. Like, it's not like Crawford would come in day one and fight a guy like Ilya or Islam or something like that. And like, think it would go well. It would not go well. It would go horrible. Same thing if Mayweather came over and did the, if he redid the fight with Connor and MMA, it would not go well. So say what you about Connor's ground game, say what you will about his kicks.

He would, he would destroy Floyd at that time in 2017, like in a mixed martial arts fight. Any day in Floyd's life pretty much. Yeah. But boxing, like, I just, I don't like, I don't get it because I'm like, why, like, if you want to say you're a better. fighter and you would dismantle him in an octagon sure but he's not calling you out like terence carver isn't calling you out he's not saying dude i'd beat you in an octagon you're calling him out saying i beat him in a box ring here's a secret ilia you're not beating him in a boxing ring it is not going to happen probably not but look we've been surprised before right uh how

surprised were we with ingano and fury okay different different story but remember the remember the mcgregor thing like people were convinced mcgregor was going to get mayweather a fight Oh, yeah, believe me. I'm not convinced one iota. Like, I don't think he stands a chance. But people do fucking amazing things in this world, bro. And it blows us away sometimes. What Francis did blew me the fuck away.

So I just, I'd hate putting it past him. I think, again, it's silly for us, for anybody to be like, oh, yeah, well, of course he's going to win that fight. Like, it's fucking early to Portia. like he knows how to fight you know like it's ridiculous it's an unfair fight like it's a literally an unfair fight like he doesn't train his hands as much as crawford does so it's completely unfair but you know i'm just i guess um that's just me with my little optimistic positive self-talk person there because yeah yeah i'd love to see i'd love to see an m-may guy

top emma go go and be a top boxer I would just love it. It's just not going to happen for the most likely. Like I don't have a problem with, like, when Ilya's like he won, he knocked out Chalers old there and he's like, I want to go to Welchway and chase Islam. Now, I don't think you should do that right away. I think you got plenty of work to do it lightweight with, you know, lots of big fights with Armin and Patty and whoever else.

But I don't really have a problem with that because you're still in your sport. Like, you know, can you actually go up and become a three division champion? No one's ever done it before. It'd be interesting. I'm into that. But I have zero interest. and watching a box Terrence Crawford. Like I just, I know, I know what it's going to, I, I can't say with absolute certainty,

because you're right, it's a fight. But if you're asking me to bet on it, like, I'm pretty heavily waging that he's going to get picked apart and knocked out by Terrence Crawford. That's a 20 to one underdog there, I think, or something like that. And like, really, really, like, we got excited about the Connor fight because it was Connor's shit talk and Floyd is good at responding to the shit talk, right? and good shit talking himself. So that was the drama was the interest there.

At least us in the know, again, I hate two and iron horns. But like the only people saying Connor had a chance were the fucking nobs and the, what he's called them tough nobs back in the day. Like, you know, these people had started watching when Connor started rising in the UFC. Those were the people picking. Yeah. Yeah, like Connor fans and people that were just disillusioned. if you knew anything about boxing, you knew Floyd Mayweather was going to pick him apart and do pretty much what he did.

And yeah. And I just say people that said Bronda Rousey did have a chance against King Belasquez. Yeah. I just, like I said, I always hate bringing it up, but it's like he keeps talking about it. So it's almost like, dude, just like, A, it's not, I don't think Dana is ever going to ever do that again. Because I think, I think the aftermath of Connor losing, that was kind of the beginning at the end of Connor's downfall. Like he went and did all that time. You know when data might do it again, though?

You know when data might do it again, which I think we're going to talk about here in a minute, is if this all the revision act goes through and they do control boxing. When I got a great deal on a great gift at winners, I started wondering, could I get fabulous gifts for everyone on my list? Like this designer fragrance for my daughter. It's just $39.99. How could I resist? This luxurious will throw for my sister.

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Buy yours at go-transit.com slash tickets. It is a legitimate possibility at that point. So I wanted to talk about that because that was a big topic of contention. Can I ask, like, I know I'm putting you on the spot here, Max. I know you have a good relation with Dana. You've always had a good relation with Dana. But like at the press cover, someone brought that up to him and he basically called the guy an asshole and like shut it down.

Everyone, of course, you get the Dana fan boys cheering or whatever. But I mean, Dana did like one interview. last week with some outlet in Vegas. And the Vegas outlet was like pressing him on fighter pay and the Ali act. You kind of see like he was like a little bit of a deer in the headlines. Like Dana didn't expect someone to press him on that because Dana doesn't really do those interviews anymore. But that's been a big topic of discussion.

And I don't want to, I don't want to get too deep in the nitty gritty of it all in terms like all the differences. But the way I, the best way I can explain it is it's UFC style promotion being brought to boxing exclusive contracts. You would fight for, in this case. Zupa boxing, you would be under contract for multiple fights for Zupa boxing. They would hand out titles. They'd have their own like, their own basically, again, just creating exactly what the

UFC is in boxing, which does not exist in boxing. You can't do it in boxing currently. And you get to one side of the argument saying, well, we need, we want the fights we want to see. We want, you know, Canelo Crawford. We want those fights that maybe wouldn't have happened five years ago. And I don't think boxing, like the hardcore boxing means to say that aren't wrong, because there's a lot of fights.

I think we've missed out on because two promoters couldn't get along or two promoters couldn't come to agreement on a fight. But I'm telling you right now, just because Dana starts a boxing organization and has that rule, I don't think that necessarily means you're suddenly going to get, you know, every single fight you ever want to see. It's never going to happen. But Matt, you are more versed in this also because you are a much bigger boxing guy than this.

So what do you make of basically the UFC bringing UFC-style promotion to boxing? where do we start my you know the the big issue is what they've done with the UFC is they've monopolized the sport and what that creates is the reason that that Dana doesn't do those interviews is because he controls the media right that's why like no one goes to a UFC as media and ask hard questions they're all softball questions right they're the same questions over and over again. So they control the media and they have a monopoly on the sport. And what happens is this is why you see guys, what was it a couple weeks ago when

Protest was like begging for his friend to get a shot in the UFC, you know, and you see guys like me, I'm guilty of it where we're like, bro, can I get that $50,000 bonus man? Please. Please, master. And that's not the way it's supposed to work, right? And the reason that it doesn't work that way in boxing, you've never heard a single boxer in your lifetime or my lifetime beg the promoter for anything, right?

Because of a thing called the Ali Act, which is what the UFC is trying to revise, which actually means destroy. And it's not going to be a good thing. People think it's going to be a good thing. But when you have a single entity controlling rankings, controlling titles, that's not a good thing for boxing. Of course, you know, from the fans, they see all the bullshit in boxing. And that's what was so they're like, oh, well, they'll come in and fix it.

Well, that's what they're trying to pitch to you, right? That they're going to come in and fix it. You'll get to see the fights. You want. But ultimately, when you break it down, there's no way that the pay stays the same because we are fighting

currently the way boxing works. And the reason that Terence got 50 million and what's his name? A Canello got 150 million, which was the disclosures that I've seen. I don't know if that's totally accurate. I think it's right, right? is because the promoters are fighting for the boxers.

With this, and that is because of the OLLI Act. With this revision act, they want what the UFC is, fighters are fighters begging for the promoters or working for the promoters. In boxing, the promoters work for the boxers. And this is also, I always have to preface this with one thing too. like I'm not hating on the UFC. I don't hate Dana Wyatt or the UFC. Like they built a billion business. And if you look at us like we're fighting dogs,

which is essentially our John McCain calls cock fighting, right? So we're cockfighters, right? We're a bunch of chickens fighting each other, right? Now, if I can go buy chickens to fight for $10, then I would do that all day and then sell it, you know, to the people and make, you know, a hundred bucks, whatever it is. But when those, if those chickens bite back and they say, they say, no, we want, you know, 80% of the revenue,

not 20% or 10% or whatever it is. Because of the monopoly, they could say, okay, right now they could say, all, fuck you chicken, we're going to go buy a different chicken somewhere else, right? Yeah. Whereas in boxing, they can't do that. It's the promoters saying, saying, no, like, we'll give you, you know, your 80% or whatever it is. You know, please fight for us. You know, you can have a certain percentage.

That's a major problem that you do not want in boxing. I think, and this is the argument I would make, like, understanding a little bit more of the way UFC does promotion in this regard. I don't mind as much the exclusive contracts because you're trying to build stars. You're trying to build an organization. It's hard to put a lot of investment into one person. If you only have a one-fight contract, you've got to constantly re-sign them. And somebody can just come in and take the guy, you know, because he offers him, you know, whatever, much more. So I understand that aspect, like comparison to, like, say, the NFL or the NBA, signing a guy to a six-fight deal for, you know, whatever and paying him that much.

I don't have a problem with the exclusivity of the contracts as much as anything else. Here's the problem, though. Unlike the NFL, the NBA, the Major League Baseball, their major sports, you're not, there's no one to compete with with the UFC. Like, the only people who are competing with the UFC are PFL, which that's not real competition. They don't have the money or the funding to really compete with the UFC. And what, BKFC? Like what? I mean, no one has, no one has the money to really, truly compete with the UFC unless you just want to have a fire cell and you're going out of business like affliction did back in the day when they were paying Tim Sylvia $900,000 to fight, or you're like,

dude like come on that's a lot of money for a guy who's you know not really moving the needle um so i understand the exclusive contracts but the problem is unlike the NFL a the NFL has a collective bargaining agreement where they say hey 50% of revenue has to go back to the players we don't have that we know it's like 16 to 20% goes to fires which is ridiculous but also the other side of that is in the NFL if you know my guy who got hurt today i breaks from my heart joe burrow if joe becomes a free agent. There's a little bit of work the Bengals could do to keep him, meaning the franchise tag and things like that, but ultimately, people

leaving free agents, like Micah Parsons, incredible defensive player for the Cowboys, basically didn't get a deal done, could not come to terms of the Cowboys. They ended up trading. They got rid of them. They sent him over to the Packers, and he got a massive deal. And free agency and football is just like that. Like, if the Cowboys don't want to pay it, the Packers will. The Packers don't want to pay the 49ers will.

The 49ers don't want to pay you the Eagles will. There's competition. They're jockeying for the best players. There's no jockeying. in the UFC. Like they, like, I'm not saying there aren't guys making good money. I think there are guys making millions, but, but when you have no competition to tell you what your actual worth is, if no one is around and say, hey, I'll pay you $10 million. Exactly.

And the two are also tied together, though. When you talk about you want to build someone, you're controlling the rankings and you're controlling the titles. Like, what if Mofsar wanted to go fight for someone else right now? Right. Maybe his contract ends. He wants to fight out. contract, whatever, what are they going to do on the last five of his contract? They're going to

match him with someone lower ranked and they'll probably even, even if he won, they would probably rank him lower knowing that he's going to go test free agency. So now they're controlling the title, which he should have already got title shot, right? But they're controlling that. So now as a technically a free agent, they just devalued you as a free agent. Right. They push who they want to push, they rank who they want to rank, how they want to rank them, and they give a title to who they want to give a shot to, right? So now you're devalued on that what's technically a free agency anyway. So that all kind of ties together. And when they have the exclusive contract, they can do that. But if there is a third party sanctioning body, which is one of the arguments against

boxing, there's so many sanctioned bodies that are giving out so many titles. But realistically, like, if you follow boxing, like, we know what the real titles are, right? We know who the real title holders are in every division. And we know the ins and outs, right? Because it's a sport. Like, it's hard to call UFC a sport when a certain person, excuse me, wants to get a certain amount of money out of you, so they'll rank you a certain way and they'll get you to a title shot a certain

way whereas in a sport like you can work your way there and earn it which is again more akin to boxing so those things are all kind of tied together i think and the exclusive contract makes them puts the UFC or the promoter in whatever case in the position to make you what they want you to be yeah yeah so that can that controls your income ultimately and last thing i'll say well on your response there was you say, yeah, they're making good money. Like, Terran's got 50 million as the B side, right? Nobody in UFC has made a third of that as far as I know.

You know, I think like the highest payday we've ever even heard of and being offered was John Jones, which I don't even think we have confirmed or anything, right, for 30 million. So we can say good money, but like who's making good money? The UFC's making good money. The fighters are making, you know, you say making millions of dollars is good money, which it is. But when you're making someone else, 100 million and you're making 10 million,

you're not making good money. Well, when you look at the, I think it really, this is getting off the whole Alley Act thing, but like when you look at the revenue being made and you talk about 20% or 16% going back to the fighters and there's 50% every other major sport. I mean, okay, so let's say the UFC is profitable as it is. It is a very profitable organization. I do financial reports all the time to much revenue they're earning.

They're not earning what the NFL earns. We know that. The NFL is a different juggernaut, okay? So maybe you're not going to pay guys. You know, you're not going to sign like a Michael Parsons does a four-year deal for $170 million or something ridiculous like that. He's making $44 million a year, whatever the average was he's making. I think it's like $44 and $47 million a year.

Okay, I get that. You're not the NFL. You don't have those kind of deals. You signed a $7.7 billion deal of paramed. That's a big deal. The NFL is making triple I. I mean, what their last TV contract was a ridiculous amount of money. So I get it.

I get it. You're not the NFL. I'm not faulty for not being the NFL. But by comparison, that 50% revenue going back to the players is still remarkably higher. So if you just did 50% of the revenue, the market would bear huge increases in financial benefit to the fighters. Like you're not going to make, you're not going to make 44 million like Micah Parsons, but maybe you make 20 million or 15 million. That's still a huge increase from what

guys are making now. Which is great, would be great in a certain sense. But again, when there's a single entity with a monopoly controlling who gets that payday, that's when it becomes a problem, right? Because now you have, again, Movers are of a law, right? like a perfect example or even you know Tony Ferguson went on like what 12 fight win streak before he got a title shot there were you know and there's other guys on two three fight win straights to get title shots while he's not getting a title shot you know that's where again a prom like you're begging the promoter give me a title shot give me a title shot the promoter should be working for you promoting you and if you talk about like building stars i mean

has boxing ever really had a problem building stars? I know every generation, it was like, oh, there's no more stars left and then more people come along. You know, it's like, it never ends. Like, there's always going to be another star. So, you know, I don't know how that argument really stands up because we've never been short stars in boxing since Muhammad Ali, even before that really.

But I think that's enough years. 40 plus years of very high level stars making loads of of fucking money. You know what I mean? You're talking like Canelo got $150 million last

weekend. Like if he was in the UFC, I mean, he would have got what, 20 at best. If he was lucky. You know, I mean, the B-side guy got more than that, right? So, and that's where, again,

the promoter needs to be working for them. And that's my biggest issue. right it's just a we're all fighters begging for scraps begging for $50,000 please like it's going to change my life when it's like dude if you just go win and you know it should be on it should the impetus should be on you to build yourself as a star and your promoter at least you know when he's you're under contract with them they want to build you up and get as much money out of you as possible um it's like that that's how it's supposed to work yeah right it's not a it's not a it's

not a promoter's job to take your career and make you a star. It's your job to do that. It's their job to promote a fight between you and another man. Yeah. I think it just gets lost in the mix when you, I mean, I'm like, I'm guilty of it just right there when I say, like, I think there are guys making pretty good money. Yeah, millions of dollars. I'm not scoffing a millions of dollars. There are guys making multi-millions in the UFC. I think Ilya Tabori probably made, you know, more than a million for fighting Charles Oliver. I'm sure that Tom Aspinall will probably make a pretty good paycheck when he fights Cyril gone.

But when I say a pretty good paycheck and you say like a million dollars or $2 million, that sounds great. And trust me, I'd like to have $2 million. I'd love to have $2 million. But then you compare it to what they should be making. You know, what the UFC, the revenue to the EO.C. When you look at the financial records and you see how much just a sick amount of revenue the EEOC's earning and then you think, well, hold on now.

Like, okay, so you're not going to pay Tom Aspinall $150 million. that's just, you know, that's not going to happen for him at this point in terms of like his star powers draw. But let's say he made $2 million. They could easily afford to pay him four or six or ten. You know what I mean? I think that's, and I know that's getting way off subject to the alley-but-but-it but it kind of plays back into that. When you control everything, you can say, like, man, you're making a couple million dollars.

What are you complaining about? What I'm complaining about is you shouldn't be making $10 million. Like, I'm not saying he's broke and he's on the street with a cup of pencils asking for a handout, but that doesn't mean you're paying him what he's worth. because the UFC controls the market, they can tell you what you're worth. And I've always found, I know this is getting off-suffemic man,

but I don't tell you, they won't tell you what you're worth. They'll tell you what they'll pay you. Yeah, they'll tell you what they'll tell you is what you're worth, right? Like that's what the... Right.

Like, I've always found, I know this is a weird thing to say, but I've always found it kind of embarrassing when guys are like begging for $50,000 bonuses. I'm like, is that really the message you want out there? Like, your guys are basically on the hands and needs, like, can I please get $50,000?

And like, I'm not saying $50,000, I would love an extra $50,000. But I think people get lost in the idea that, like, this is a career. You have until, let's just say you have like from like 20 to 40. And that's a, I know it's a 20 year window. But most fight careers, you look at most fight careers in the UFC. They're four or five years. Like that's a pretty long career these days.

Well, look, Dana said it himself. I mean, at the time, you know, when I didn't really understand all this stuff, and I may not be articulating it perfectly, but when I didn't really understand that stuff, it made a lot of sense. When Dana said, this is not a career, this is an opportunity. And that is so wrong. Like looking back on that, I'm like, that is so fucking wrong, bro. So basically what he's saying is, you know, you have the opportunity to use, you know,

the UFC brand that we're going to give you to push yourself. And I mean, I can't hate on it. Like it created an opportunity for me, right? Like I'm sitting here doing this podcast. because I was a UFC fighter, not because I'm the most interesting man in the world, right? Like, that's a, just I get that. But it should be able to be a career.

Like, you should be able to make retirement money if you're that good of a fighter. Like the whole, Dana also uses this where he says, you know, you eat what you kill. Like, that is so false. Like, you eat what we give you. Right?

If Connor goes out and sells 5 million pay-per-views, he doesn't get what he killed, right? He promotes the shit out of it, does all the media. He doesn't get what he killed. He gets what the UFC says you can have, which might be $10 million, while the UFC takes $80, $100 million. Right?

And so how is that eating what you kill? That's Dana eating what you killed. And don't get me wrong. like they're they're amazing again i say this all the time like when i talk about this like they're amazing businessmen if again if i'm buying chickens for my chicken fighting and they're selling theirs for 10 dollars and they're selling theirs for 50 i'm getting the 10 dollar chicken every single time and now if i own the chicken fighting scene why would i go pay 50 dollars for a chicken when i can pay 10 dollars for a chicken and and like nobody can compete against me because i have

the monopoly in chicken fighting. And those chickens, their owners that are selling them to me, they're not saying, hey, you got to, you know, we're worth more than that. You got to pay us a hundred bucks for this chicken.

No, because they also control the managers, right? And the managers, which would be like, you know, in my analogy, the chicken owners,

right? They're working for the UFC too. So now, you know, and then they decide, okay, this chicken gets a title. we're going to push this one you know this one's ranked this this one's ranked that it doesn't it's

really not a good model for the fighters right for the athletes that are working their asses off and that's really what we are we're we're a bunch of fighting dogs you know begging for scraps and when i was a young fighter i was perfectly fine with that i love that i was i remember one time a Rich Franklin, he told me to treat this like a business. And, and, you know, I was, I was just getting in the UFC. And I was like, God, Rich, like, business. Like, what the fuck, bro? Like, you know, and I almost, like, didn't want to listen to Rich for anything after that,

you know, and I did because, you know, he's a fucking brilliant person and an amazing person and all that. But at the time, I was like, they really turned me off. Like, like, business. Like, what do you mean? Like, I'm a fucking warrior. And 90, I would venture to say that the majority of fighters feel the same way. Like, they don't care about the business. Like, if you give, if you go out to any martial arts gym and find a couple fighters,

you guys that dream of being the UFC and you say, hey, if you give me a thousand bucks, I'll get you into the UFC, guaranteed. They'll fucking come up with a thousand dollars. They will pay you for that opportunity. right and does anybody think that that's right that like that's the way that this is supposed to work right yeah that that's that's insanity right like you should in any sport in the world like you fight your way through the rankings you fight your way to the top and you get what you earned and if you keep winning that's what you get you get the winnings if you lose then that's

That's what you get. If you really want to dumb it all the way down to this, I'll just say it like this. I think you'll agree with my analogy here. If you spend 15 years in the NFL, you can probably, I mean, unless you blow your money, you're going to be able to retire comfortably. Like, you know, if you play in the NBA. You spend one year in the NFL and retire comfortably. You play 15 years in the NBA.

You play 15 years of Major League Baseball. You know, you retire comfortably. You spend 15 years to the UFC. When you retire, could you have just never fought again? Could you have never done anything again just lived off? your winnings. Yeah, I fought 16 years in the UFC. And yeah, yeah, like I'm still, I even, you remember when I retired.

I said, I'm not retiring. I'm just switching jobs. I'm switching incomes. Yeah. And that's what I'm getting at. Like, like, you spent 16 years in the biggest mixed martial arts organization in the world. There was never thought in your head.

Like, I can retire right now. And I'm just sitting back smoking cigars and I'm done. Like, there was never that thought in your head. Like, oh, I'm just done. And, and, you know, I'll be fair to myself and I too. Like I wasn't a champion. I wasn't a top level guy.

Like most of them could probably retire pretty decent on the money that they have. But it's really not even about that, right? Like it's it's not about. So there's a certain amount of money that comes into the sport period. And all of it goes to the UFC. You know what I mean? Like that's not the way it's supposed to be. So therefore they control everything.

They decide everything. They control the media, right? Like, you can't go to Dana and ask him the questions that that girl was asking him. What was her name, Amber, something, I think. You can't go to him and ask him those questions. You will never go to another UFC in your life, right? Luke Thomas is not allowed at UFC's for this reason, right? Ariel Hawani is not allowed at UFC's for this reason.

So they control that. They control the rankings. They control the titles. Again, I don't hate them for doing it. If I was in their shoes, I'd probably do the same damn thing. Like you're buying a product, fighters, at the lowest margin possible or at the lowest price possible. You're selling it for the highest price possible. So you're creating the biggest margins possible.

That's what you do in a business. If my employees, I have I think 14, 15 employees now, if they come to me or if they never come to me and ask for more money, I'm not going to give them more money. If they say, hey, we can go down the street and make more money. Then I have to pay them more money if I want them. If they never come to me and ask for it, I'm not going to give it to them. Now, I'll pay them fairly, right, which, you know, the UFC could probably argue, like, you know, we're a bunch of poor, wrecked PTSD, drug addict motherfuckers, non-college educated. I know there's some not like that in UFC, but like that's most fighters.

right we're just fucking dogs on the street that are mean motherfuckers tough and crazy and find our way you know into this sport right that that's a standard so now if i'm able to lock my employee into this contract and say for you know for however long you cannot go anywhere else and then if you do go somewhere else i get matching rights first like and And also, okay, like a year before that contract ends, if I feel like you're going to leave, I'm going to fuck you for this whole year, right? And I control, you know, while you're here, I'm also going to control, you know, how much money you can make.

I'm going to decide how good you are. You know, I'm going to see, I'm going to promote, my marketing is going to be based off how much I like you or whatever in terms of how many privates you get, how much I push you on social media, how much I help you to succeed in your job. Like, that's just not the way it should work, right? That's not the way my employees work, right? They will come to me and ask for more money. And I have to because there's other places that might pay them more.

So I need them. Yeah. And that's not the case in MMA. There's just not that, like, you can't, you're not, you're not Michael Parsons. You can't say, well, you don't want to pay me, but the Packers will pay me and the Packers sure the shit paid him and that's the biggest difference. There's no one in the space right now who can say well I'll pay you or

there's a I mean there are but they're a few and far between and you're not going to be in business very lonely. I think I don't necessarily PFL has buyers remorse of Francis and Ghana but I can't imagine look at their bottom line right now and say what a wise investment that was and well that's where it is stuff right

because even if like no rankings matter right like if you're a PFL champion like you're not ranked in the top 10 in the world. Like nobody goes and looks at world MMA rankings. They look at UFC rankings, right? That there's all your top 10 guys, right?

We've talked about this before, you know, with guys from other organizations. I think he might be like two or three in the world. But like no one knows or cares because one company completely owns the titles and the rankings. And you know, and that's. problematic when they're out there trying to make more money, right? They can't come in, you know, I mean, what was Patchy Mix ranked before he got in the UFC?

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people considered him, you know, top three in the world, right? In his weight class, but he didn't come to the UFC as top three in the world, right? And he couldn't go to them and say, hey, I want, you know, this much pay because I'm fucking top three in the world. They're like, bro, like, you're not ranked in the UFC. Fuck off. right and of course he didn't so far hasn't really played out that way anyway but you know the point still stands and that's just not a healthy environment for growth of the sport right and the point is you know if they end up ultimately what the point is we need to all the act in mMA that's the end goal okay

if the UFC is able to or Zufa or TKO whoever is able to institute this Ali Revision Act rather than doing what would be the goal which is get Ali Act into M.A. There won't be any Ali Act to put into MMA and it will go over to boxing. And then don't think that there's not a chance of them moving that into Jiu-Jitsu, which they're already putting their hands on. I wouldn't put it past other sports either, you know, combat sports that they may eventually put their hands on, whether that's wrestling or Muay Thai or, you know, different things like that. I don't think it'll happen in Muay Thai because I don't think any of that stuff would be enforceable in Thailand,

which is what Muay Thai is. And I think that's why it's probably the most untouchable sport for them. And I think that's also why they haven't ventured into that world. So, again, I say all this, like not with any hate or disgruntlement towards Dana and all those guys. And they may take it that way. They may listen to this and, oh, fuck my brown. He doesn't want our bill to pass or whatever. And he sees through our shit or whatever.

And, you know, I respect them as businessmen. I respect what they have done. They brought the MMA to a worldwide scene. They have brought, they gave me a chance at life. life, right? They gave me a hope in life. But I care about the sport, too, though. And I care about, you know, people getting, actually eating what they kill in combat sports. I think you said it best when you said that it's not eat what you kill. It's Dana eats what you kill. You know, like the EOC eats what you kill because they're making revenue hand over fist. And like you said, I know, I don't want to boil it down to the.

simple of terms, but I think for people who aren't sitting there studying this every day, this is the simplest way to say it. You can say, I'm going to give you $2 million. $2 million is good money. It is good money. But if you're bringing in $100 million of revenue or $50 million of revenue, how, like, $2 million doesn't sound nearly as good when you realize you're making $2 million and the guy who's like signing your paycheck is making $20 million or $50 million or $100 million.

Like suddenly, hold on now is $2 million really that good of money? And I think like you look at the NFL or NBA. Like I'm sure the NBA owners would love to make all. that money back, but there's just rules in place and, you know, set like rules with the, with the, collective bargaining agreements and the unions, like, they can't do it. Like, I'm sure they, I'm sure every NFL owner would love to just make all the profit off of a TV deal, but they can't because there's a collective bargaining agreement in place. There's a league that oversees the owners.

And they say, no, you can't just take the money. Like, you have to use it. You know, you have to pay the players. There's no one doing that for the U.S. There's literally no oversight whatsoever. The U.S. makes the rules. The U.S.C. writes the rulebook.

They make the rules. and they enforce the rules or lack thereof. Like they don't have anyone telling them they can or cannot do this, and that's different than every other major sport on earth. Like no other sport operates, like no major sport operates like that where they can just say, oh, yeah, you're worth $2 million. Well, but I've made $100 million for you. But you're worth $2 million.

Like no one else gets to, the Packers don't get to tell Michael Parsons, ah, you know, you're not really worth $44 million. Guess what, they are because if they don't pay him $44 million, the Cowboys, whoever, you know what I mean? I would go back to my analogy earlier. There's nothing like that in the U.S.C. There's nothing like that in M.M.A. So, and I know.

And ultimately when you, okay, so we know there's been a few people try to do an MMA promotion, right? And this is when we get into the exclusive contracts and titles and everything, right? I think Mark Cuban tried. Fuck, even Donald Trump tried a little bit, right?

You know, who else? I mean, there's been some millions. multi-millionaires try right there's a very very wealthy people they put on fantastic shows they paid fighters as much as they could and but this is exactly why even what was the one they were trying to do this year where they're like they give fighters 50 percent of revenue or something gifl yeah yeah the problem with that is is goes back to again the ufc having the monopoly over the sport they control the titles and the rankings so they ultimately control what what your value is.

And this is the problem with the exclusive contracts. If we remove the exclusive contracts, they can only have a contract for, let's say, year, which I think is what's the standard in boxing for the All the Act. Okay, after a year, I beat, you know, your best guy. Now I can go actually test a free market. But because I'm under an exclusive contract and you control the title and you control the ranking,

you control who I fight when I fight. For the fans, that sounds great, right? Because they're like, oh, we get the fights that we want to see. But I don't get the fights that I want. I get the fights that you pick for me. And that's what is ultimately going to determine my value in a free market, which is not a free market either. But if it was a free market, like that is ultimately what's going to control the value.

So long story short, UFC style promotion and boxing, as we're saying, is probably not a good thing. It's not the way to go. Well, you know, it just depends on what you want, right? If you want a single entity controlling every fighter, you know, because you're a fan and you just want to see the best, fight the best, and you're able to be propagandized by the marketing of that single entity. And, and, and, and that's, simply what you want.

I guess for you, it's a good thing. If you're a fighter for one and you want a free market and you want to and you believe that you can go win and you want to get paid for your wins, no. And if you're a fan who wants the fighters to do well and not be asking, well, like, what was the one they made a site or something where it was like tip the fighters and shit like that? Like, have you ever heard anything like that for boxing? that's fucking ludicrous you know what i mean like it's come to this like we're strippers now right um

and we are kind of like strippers in a lot of ways but that's a whole other conversation neither here nor there but if if that's what you want is for your guys your your favorite fighter to get his value then this is terrible and it's really really bad news and um you've known me a long time Damon, like, I've never spoke up about this type of stuff. I've never, I've towed the line of the UFC for 16 years, you know, the whole time I was with them. This is not something good for the sport. And I don't like it and I have to speak my mind about it.

I mean, I think it's, I mean, like I said, I mean, you know, the only way you can affect change is by actually trying to change it by speaking out about it. I think a lot like, like when you're in the UFC, we've heard this before. like there's a fear of reprisal. Like you don't want to speak out because, you know, suddenly you're, suddenly you're expendable. Suddenly one loss, you're like, yeah, you're out of the UFC and you're cut. And then because there is no real free market in MMA,

because you can't get paid really big money anywhere else. You're stuck. Yeah, okay. You went from, like, maybe you weren't making Buku, but you're making 50 and 50,000, 50,000 and $5,000 to win. But then you go to PFL and they're like, we'll pay you a 10. Well, that's a dramatic draw from what you were just making. If you speak out during the UFC, they're like, oh, we don't want you around here anymore.

You're not worth it to us anymore. So yeah, I mean, that's the reality. Or you speak out against you, so you've seen, they shelf you, right, because they decide when you fight. And again, with these exclusive contracts, like they just sit you out. They offer you a fight every six months. And, you know, they're going to put you up against the next Dagestanian that you never heard of that is probably going to murder you. You know, like depending on your styles and all that kind of shit. But then they know all that shit.

I mean, that goes even, you know, to the next step of stuff, right? They build a UFCI now and all the fighters go out there. happy to get all this next level um um revolutionary training and this and that but they also got your blood work your oxygen uptake your your your nutrition um your injury status on everything how hard you can punch they have videotapes of you training so they're like okay well we're not to match up this guy because we see the stats on this guy and we see the stats on this guy this is a pretty simple little uh little you know math problem here and you know and of course you might go out there and still win right and prove them wrong and then

you know you could end up like uh who was it a colby covington right and you know be winning a bunch of fights and no one give a shit so now now you have to play a different game now you have to be an entertainer because this isn't actually a sport and and i think that's ultimately like my gripe right i want it to be a sport right like this we know like if we know like dana took a lot from Vince McMahon and WWE. And I think the one thing that they took the most was like how to sell entertainment. And they do a great job of it. I've said it a million times.

There's no sport on this planet that does behind the scenes, drama, build up a market of personalities better than the UFC. They do a brilliant job of it. And that's why I also think what I think Dana's trying to, going to try to do to boxing, you know, if all this goes through, right? He's talked about it like, you know, we're going to have a contender series type thing. They would have, you know, they may try some ultimate fighter type thing.

You know, but the point is, like, they're going to build personalities way better than boxing does. But the reason that boxing is a sport and not entertainment is because they don't have, like you just said, like you were saying earlier, like there is no exclusive contract that can hold you and say, okay, we can build you as a star, right? The promoters, they'll put down a 24, seven or something for one fight but they're not going to do it continually right and they're not

going to build you as a human being that's up to you to do that because it's actually a sport and you get to um again i know there's issues with like making certain fights and stuff but ultimately like you can build yourself up i mean this is also why you know i don't mean to go on too many rants but this this is why you'll see boxers not really fight tough guys for 20 fights right they'll they'll build the record up Like, they have the ability to do that. And, but that's also why you see guys, you know, with those 25, 30 fights, like a Terrence Crawford or whatever, that are so much more skilled, right? Like, the cream of the, the cream rises to the fucking top, right? Because, like, they get to develop themselves.

And, you know, promoters of shit are watching them, right? They're watching them against the nobodies. They're like, okay, he's got a good jab or, you know, he's got this, he's got that. But that's, like, how a sport naturally progressive. right? If you play football, you play high school, then college and then professional, right? So, you know, you're playing tons and tons like, like fucking, I'm trying to give an example, like Maurice Corrett. I can only think of him because he's my friend, right? Like he was destroying college kids, right?

So he was like, let's go to the NFL, right? Most don't do that, right? They need those reps to develop to get to that top level. and boxing they can do that and UFC I mean how many you know you see guys like five and two records and you know 10 and oh you whatever you know but it's like that that's because it's entertainment and not a sport and we saw it on Saturday night I'm not trying to knock it we saw it on

Saturday night this 19 year old girl named Alice Pereira do they debut Brazilian everyone 19 years old she's so young she's coming she looks so out of her depth like she just she was not ready for that moment and she fought a fighter who's not like a great fighter. She didn't find like a top, top-notch fighter. She looked like a deer in the headlines. She did not, she did not need to be in there. Every single person said, yeah,

there's talent there, but she needs seasoning. She's like, you know, like, you know, like what kind of, I mean, I know I'm, this an unfair comparison for me because I was like sitting there saying he'd be Israel and Sonia because I'm just I just said that because it's probably one of the dumber things I've ever said. But like Boe Nickel, like coming in with two fights, three fights,

and he just wasn't developed. And he got to a guy like Ryanair to Ritter who's like, yeah, I can counter your wrestling and I'm a better striker, and I've got loads more experience than you, and you just looked like you didn't belong in there with me, because guess what? You probably didn't at that point in his career. You probably didn't belong in there at that point in his career.

And like I said, like... But, you know, I can't hate on the UFC for doing it this way because it's entertainment, but, like, if this was, like, a completely open market, like, a boxing, which, again, I hate to, like, pump up boxing, like, it's perfect or something. It's not. The point is like, like, Bo Nickel would get a bunch of fights and build himself up, right? But the UFC is like, like, bro, like, like, everybody knows who you are and they want to see you fight. They want to see you fight a bad motherfucker.

You know what I mean? Like, so let's throw you in there and let's just see what happens. Yeah. Well, I don't know. We're going to see how this whole thing plays out. I think where we're at right now. Like, I just see you feel like in my, like, I know they were, they brought it up. I don't have you heard this story.

They brought it up to talk, like, to give like, their approval for it. the California Stat Athletic Commission, and there was so much upheaval, they took it off the agenda, because, like, people were like, whoa, like, what are you doing? And they took it. And I think Andy Foster's a great, I think he's a great executive director, and he's got the gold standard of commissions. But even they were like, hey, we're behind this. And everyone's like, uh, the fuck you are.

And then like, never mind, we're going to move this off the agenda. So obviously it's a big topic. You have a big topic of discussion. And, uh, you can kind of tell, like, the boxing purish, like, yeah, this is not, this is not necessarily a good thing. Like, we don't necessarily want this in the sport. Uh, but, like, like, like, let's be honest, who's controlling the government right now and who's about to have a card at the White House?

And, you know, who's so. Yeah, that's a other tough part. But, you know, we don't have to get into politics about it. But, you know, Dana is best friends with the president. Not a single Republican is going to vote against this. They got control of the House and the Senate. And they're, so they're probably going to try to push this in before midterms, which will probably be successful. I've actually tried to talk to a couple senators myself.

and all the lesser people that you have to kind of go through to talk to them, like have actual sit-down meetings, not, you know, a phone, you know, what the fuck do you want goodbye type thing? It's pretty clear like you have to bring money to donate to their campaign and you better bring a fucking lot of it to go against Trump, right? To go against the head of the Republican Party who's fucking president right now. So I think it's a stream uphill back. battle, especially if it gets pushed before the midterms.

It's a tragedy. It's a tragedy, you know. Politics sucks. Let's also be honest about this. I'm not belittling the importance of this. But for you and me and boxing in MMA, this is our world, right? We're like, this is a big, big deal. To the center is voting on war appropriations and, you know, the fucking budget and, you know,

should we send nukes to other countries? Like this is like small like oh the Aliak whatever like those push it through they don't really care you know what I mean so I think that's also you got to remember this like they're like when they announced it to us it was the biggest thing in the world it probably didn't make a blimp on the radar at anybody in Washington DC because it's like the last thing they're worried about they're like oh aliak everyone likes this Trump approves it cool I'll sign off on they don't like I read stories where senators like I had no idea what I was signing into this bill like there's so much shit hidden in bills like I approved that yes actually you did so do you think they're really I don't think they're sitting around their offices right now pouring over the Muhammad Ali Revival Act. I'm like, this is, this is good. They're just, and what's going to happen, what ultimately is going to happen is Trump will say, hey, I like this, let's do it. And every Republican is going to say, sure, let's do it. And that's the end of it.

They're not reading it. They're not researching it. And to them, it's not the biggest agenda item on their day. Like they're not, it's just to us, it's huge. But to them, they're like, oh, whatever, it's boxing. It's in a whatever. So I'm not trying to belittle. I'm just saying, you got to remember that when you talk about like,

a bigger picture. No, you're right. You're very correct on that. And, you know, and I think, you know, we don't have to get totally politically here. But, you know, that is one of the issues of politics, right? That's what they do. They're not coming through every bill to see if it's good for their people that they are representing, right? And, you know, if you, and if you give them enough money, they're, they're on board. Or if they're told to by their superior, they're on board, right? And it's not technically they're superior but it is right and you know and that's we could get obviously you know we could get very deep into the political shit but um and you know what in the last thing i'll say i'll believe the shit if they were doing all the right votes for the wars and the fucking taxes and

all the shit um at least morally you know if i if i felt they had any moral compass on all that stuff like like okay look you fucked me on this deal i can put up with that but you know they're the whole things of a fucking racket so yeah well yeah it's hard we can get deep into that but we don't need to right we're on a may fighting show yeah well it's we'll see what happens but i i think it's i think that a lot of people kind of got lost this like you know like getting ufc getting or zoo for t-care or however you want to fucking buffet it's saying and getting involved in boxing and i don't think it's a bad thing there's more people getting involved in and just like, I don't think there's a bad thing

people getting involved in MMA. But, you know, is it going to benefit to sport in the long run? Is it going to benefit to fighters in the long run? That's ultimately what I care about, what I've always cared about. That's like when we talk about the anti-trust lawsuit and people take it to money.

Like, yeah, take your money. Like, dude, it's not like you didn't earn it. Like, you know, like we had that discussion before. It's not you didn't earn it. Like, you earned it. They're just not paying you for it. And you know what is as small as it is? Like, it's not small either, right?

Like, you know, obviously, you know, war and, things like that are going to be bigger but you're talking about two industries that are billions and billions of dollars like they're voting on a lot smaller things all the time right you know and and I guess when you say it's smaller

it's because there's not a lot of I guess like abortion is like a very moral righteous thing right like either for it against it right and there's like a lot of hard emotions and shit like this is just protecting a billion-dollar industry against a monopoly, right?

But you would think that they would respect the fact that they did just lose a $100 million of dollar lawsuit for breaking antitrust laws, right? So you think they would respect that, but that's not really the way politics works, I guess, in America. It does not. Or anywhere.

Yeah, oh, yeah, that's true. We can talk about this a lot more But we'll get into it And this is a good time to talk about too Because we don't have the UFC event this weekend We got a break So it's kind of a good time to get in this topic And have that discussion coming out of

Canelo Crawford and obviously with the UFC Technically I don't know how you want to position it But the UFC's owners getting involved In boxing and whatever else is going Which is funny because they're getting funded By Turkey a la shake It's like what do they care? Like what do they care?

They're not paying the bill right now It's Turkey paying the bill Like you know what I mean? But that's the whole other the whole other discussion with turkey and the money and when that's eventually going to dry up because it will. But we'll see how long that takes. Well, all they need it,

all the money they need is to pay these politicians off. That's. Yeah. Yeah. And they're in the, they're in the winter seat at that point. So anyway. Yeah.

So we'll have more discussion. This is good, but it's a good topic. Especially with everything going on this last weekend. And I think a lot of people are just not really sure how this works. and I think having a fire of your stature and tenure matters. Like, you know, when you say things like, you don't eat what you kill, Dana eats what you kill.

I think that's an important, I think that's a lesson. You're like, oh, yeah, I guess, you know, that's shit we should think about that because a lot of people don't think about that. So I think it's important we talk about those kind of things and have that kind of conversation. And will anything change? I think that I got to close out on this. I know we got to get out of this. I think that's where a lot of people get lost in this because it's just like,

it's almost like fighting when they say fighting City Hall. it's like, what can we do? Like it just feels like you're fighting an uphill battle. You're ice skating uphill. You can't win. And that, that demeanor, that attitude is what allows companies, corporations to just take over. When you're like, well, I can't fight a corporation. You won't.

And they'll control you and pay you what they want to pay you because you're not fighting. So, you know, I think there is that also that attitude we're just like, I can't do anything about it. So we just got to roll over and play dead. Well, they're probably not wrong either. There's a lot of time you can't do about it. But again, hopefully saying it out loud and speaking up and more and more people get involved. You know, we said there's nothing we could do about it. And then, you know, we've seen what happened at the CSAC meeting, you know.

Little wins like that, I think, go a long way where, you know, maybe it comes down to one vote. and and some politician suddenly has a moral day, right? And just somehow, you know, I don't know, the fucking, you know, the dude's heart just opens up, you know, like the old Scrooge or something. He suddenly has a heart, you know, just, I don't know, man. So, but, you know, you got to, you got to speak out for what you believe in. It reminds me. It reminds me when people used to back in the day when people would ask Dana about the antitrust lawsuit. He'd be like, I have no idea, I'm not involved in that.

Yes, dude, come on. Like, he knew. He was told, don't say a word. Don't, like, dig us in deeper. Don't make any statements. He knew. Dana, you don't become the CEO of an organization. You don't know the absolute inner workings of everything that's going on.

So he's like, I don't know what's going on. Yes, you do. You just don't want to talk about it. You just don't want to raise awareness to what's actually going on. So you're like, I have no idea. I'm not involved. Let the lawyers handle that. If you're the CEO of a corporation, that is not your attitude.

In reality, in reality, maybe in the problem. maybe in the press, but not in reality. So that tells you a lot right there. He doesn't want to have that conversation. No, I didn't want to have a conversation last week. Yeah, so lots more than, and real quick, I got to mention this, like the last day I trust also we saw the news. Payouts are going out pretty soon, right?

Like the fighters are going to start getting money. Yeah, it should be in the next couple weeks of what it sounds like. So, yeah, it's a good thing, you know. And I think that's one of the things, hopefully, fighters are like, damn, why do I have this money? Right? Like, maybe I should, you know, why did we win a lawsuit again? Or why did they settle this lawsuit again?

So maybe I should think about what's going on here. Like, because I could use more of these paychecks in the mail. I was, I think I saw Anderson Silver got like $10 million off that from the, from the, from the, uh, from the, I trust lawsuit. Like, what they're saying, yeah. Yeah. So, hey, money, money is money. Like, I had that whole conversation about it.

don't want to keep throwing him under the bus and not to boy connie like are we sure he's not taking that money like you know yeah yeah so somebody called me right now and said hey dude you got 40 grand to you i'm like where do i sign like where do i sign i'm going to turn that 40 grand no i'm not yeah yeah but you know if it goes to the rest of the fighters then all right cool you be you be the guy yeah and you'll you'll know like if you if you're so confident in winning you don't settle a lawsuit just saying like that's not you know you don't fight for a decade to not win and then just be like, you know, this day, they look at cost versus risk and like, well,

$375 million is probably a lot cheaper than if we'd lose this lawsuit and we'd pay a lot more in our entire business changes. So we'll pay the $3.75. So just, yeah, devil's advocate, just running out there. Matt, if people want to check you out where you got going on, obviously always want to give you a chance to let people know where they can find you what you got going on outside of the podcast because you're a very, very busy guy.

You just go to Columbia. You did stem cells down there, so you're always traveling doing shit. Yeah, yeah. was beautiful, man, and feeling great already. So, yeah, we should go into more detail about that next time, actually. So, but yeah, The Immortal Matt Brown. All right, what is it? I am the immortal.

Yeah, on Twitter and Instagram, the Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. Yeah, and check out everything you get going on over there. Like I said, you were just down in Columbia, did some stem cells. We were going to get into that, but then we get into Ali Act and that just kind of ate up our time. We could spend two hours talking about that conversation. and never and never and never finish what we actually need to talk about it's a very big subject so and I hope more people talk about it because like I said it's the only way you're going to learn about it and educate I had to educate myself about it when I was writing about it was like hold on am I understanding this like you know so same I didn't even think about it until we got the lawsuit you know or until we won in or settled whatever you want call and I was like damn what the fuck like I thought this was some fucking bullshit scam or something you know and started looking into it and and now I've learned a A lot more. Yeah, well, like I said, these are the conversations we need to have.

So I appreciate everyone tuning in. Obviously, like I said, no UFC this weekend. We'll be back next week. We roll into the card in Perth. I think it's Carlos Olberg and Dominic Ray is the next card coming up on the 28th. So we got a couple weeks before that one. Then we roll in October. We have two pay-per-views.

So I've lots to talk about with that. So, yeah, stay tuned for that. Obviously, as always, want to thank you everyone that tunes in. Make sure you check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and of course, over the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin. We will see you guys next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider.

Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then. Fox Media Podcast Network.