MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Israel Adesanya Suffering 4th Straight Loss, Conor McGregor’s Rumored Opponent

Episode Date: March 31, 2026

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to Israel Adesanya suffering a fourth straight loss after he was finished by Joe Pyfer at UFC Seattle. Is it time for Adesanya to consider retirement or should he return to fight again? Plus we’ll discuss rumored opponents for both Conor McGregor and Islam Makhachev as they plan to return in the summer and much more! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

After 19 years, they're back. Frankie Munes, Brian Cranston, and the rest of the family reunite in Malcolm in the middle, life's still unfair. After 10 years avoiding them, how and lowest demand Malcolm be at their anniversary party, pulling him straight back into their chaos. Malcolm in the middle, life's still unfair. A special four-part event, streaming April 10th on Hulu on Disney Plus. We're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Back to the Fighter vs. the writer.

I'm Damon Martin. legend Matt Brown and Matt we were coming off I don't know how much did you watch all the fights last night from where we were to Seattle did you watch the Seattle card I did yeah it was a ridiculous card man it was crazy and like an RIF was going on at the same time so I'm trying to like watch two screens at the same time it was a it was a crazy good event but man what an event last night yeah and usually you know I'll skip the girl fights but

yeah because RIF was on so I was watching that while the girl fight was going and then it was like one of the craziest finishes in history UFC, UFC history, period. Man, and then, Alexa Grasso blasted Macy Barber and then you grabbed that choke so violently and she was already out and good. Credit to Mike Beltran, the referee.

We always talk about referees have kind of a thankless job. He did a good job, man. He stopped it immediately. He knew she was done. And by the way, like, I'm not trying to dog the UFC's production career but, man, they kept that camera on a lifeless Macy Barber for an uncomfortable amount of time. That was odd, wasn't it?

Like, they don't, I don't remember them like, normally doing that. I think someone in the truck or something must have messed up because that's not a standard thing for them. Yeah, it's weird. And because she's laying there, like, her eyes are open, but she's not moving. You know, it's kind of scary. I mean, in that bone, I'm like, what's going on? And it just kept

like hovering on her. I was like, dude, like, can we not, like, can we move the cameras? They finally did. But I was like, it felt like it was on her for like a good minute flat where she just laying there. Yeah, and she was like staring right at the camera too. Like it was like right at her, like her lifeless eyes. staring at the camera.

It was kind of cryptic. Yeah. I had people on Twitter last night saying to like, oh, you're all, because I said, man, that was kind of scary because the way she's laying her their eyes open and just not moving. They're like, oh, you're only reacted that way because it was a women's fight. It was a guy who wouldn't. I was like, dude, I don't care who it was.

Like, the way she was laying there, eyes wide open, not, she was not moving at all. I was like, I don't care who it was. Guy, girl, that's scary. Yeah, it's always scary, man. And the only thing that I kind of missed was I seen Dana responding, you know, in a, standard Dana response to the AI stuff. What was the AI stuff they were referring to? I guess during the broadcast, they had some, like, promos or something that were running that

were AI. I didn't, and it wasn't that I didn't pay attention. I was, like I said, I was literally watching two events at the same time. So when I wasn't, when UFC was on commercial, I was watching RAS. So I just missed it. But apparently they had, like, a commercial and a couple of advertisements that looked AI generated and people noticed, and they asked Dana about it. And clearly, Dana didn't give a shit because he's just like, I,

What does it matter? Oh, blah, blah. And so, yeah. Yeah, very eloquent response from Dana. But, yeah, I mean, I don't know what people would expect him to say either, right? Like, you know, I mean. He's like, I'm putting on fights, motherfucker. It's like, why you worry about the promos?

Yeah, I mean, like, I'm not a preparator. I'm not a big fan of AI at all, obviously. But, I mean, I'd imagine Dana probably has no idea what you were talking about. He's like, AI, what? I have no idea what you're talking about. He has no idea. Yeah, I wasn't a fan of AI at first. But, you know, there's so many things that.

I wasn't a fan of at first, like social media, for instance. You know, I was late to the party there and so many things I get. I was like, dude, I'm going to be on this AI thing. And I've kind of embraced it. And it's pretty fucking badass, bro. Like there is so many cool. Like I do my bookkeeping with AI now, like accounting type stuff. Like I don't even, I don't even have a bookkeeper anymore.

I just use AI for an example. We use it our business a lot. The company that we use for marketing. they charge, we're saving about, we're paying, I don't know how you'd say, we're saving about 80% of what our cost was before for marketing. Now it's 80% less and we're actually getting way better results, like way better results. I mean, I, like, I mean, it's coming whether we like it or not. I don't love it for like the creative part of things.

Like when people are like, yeah, that's different, yeah. Yeah, because then you're really taking away people's jobs, you know what I mean? Like, I would much rather have a guy or a girl. you know, who's doing like a, you know, making, you know, movies or, in my case, writing or art, you know what I mean? Like, that's just going to be much better. Because I've seen AI generate art and it's like, I'm not saying it doesn't look good, but you can tell it looks like. You can tell you. It's the same with like music, you know, there's a huge debate right now on the AI music because there's like people using it and saying they wrote it or whatever.

Yeah, it's the same, yeah, with like writing blogs or articles or whatever. And, yeah, it's, I, again, I'm embracing it. but the, yeah, the artistic side or the, there has to still be human stuff in the world, you know? Like, we can't go all the way down the rabbit hole all the way there. But again, for things like, you know, very, I don't know, I guess objective things like bookkeeping or, you know, marketing for the gym, like it's fucking great, bro.

You know, like does social media posts for the gym, like for that kind of stuff. It's freaking great, man. Yeah, no, I understand that part of it. Yeah, I just like, I remember when it first started blowing up a couple years ago, somebody like put out a new Nirvana song. And I'm like, I don't want this. Like, you know, like, it does sound like Kurt Cobain. I was like, he's been dead for like 20-some of years.

I really don't want to hear a new Nirvana song that you create on AI. No, yeah. And the AI music, you can tell, it's AI music too. And yeah, that's not cool like that. But anyway, I'm trying to get ahead of the curb this time. Like, you know, I, so I'm going to embrace the fucking. AI but Dana apparently is like hey we're fucking embracing it too and that's kind of what I was going to get too like the UFC has always been good as staying ahead of the curve on these types

of things like I heard about Twitter because of UFC like they taught us how to use Twitter and told us to use Twitter and you know the the social media like they've always been ahead of the curve on that and you know so I think he actually said the right thing there fuck off Yeah, we talked about it last week on this show, Matt, and obviously we're going to talk about it now, which is the main event between Israel-Lad of Sonia and Joe Pfeiffer. You know, we kind of talked about like this is, it felt like a little bit of that do-or-die moment for Israel

because this was a guy who was number 14 or whatever ranked. You know, losing to Strickland was a bit of a shock, but we kind of figured out, well, Strickland's actually pretty good. Like, at the time it was more of a shock, but whatever. and then he lost the Drekus, Drichus, you know, championship fight is what is, Drichus is obviously very good. And even losing to Embovob, you're kind of like, man, he got caught.

Like, Mavov, you know, caught him, but he was doing really well in that fight. And him of vows, at worst, what, the number two or three ranked guy in the world? Right. Piper was kind of like the weird one, because Piper was a rankter's high. He didn't have nearly as much of accomplishments. He had been kind of, his one loss, he kind of got a little sloppy in there. He didn't look great.

And to his credit, Israel looked good to start that fight. But in the end, second round, he gets 10. taken down, put on his stomach, and just blast that out of there by Joe Pfeford. I know afterwards Israel said, you know, I'm not done. I'm not leaving, blah, blah, blah. Matt, I guess the two-part question, what did you think of the performance? And where does Israel go from here? Yeah, that's a good question, man.

For one, I thought Israel looked fantastic, like you were just saying. I thought it looked really good. I thought it looked like it was going his way and everything was working the way that he wanted to. and then, you know, I, you know, I tweeted about a little bit yesterday and had a little bit of Twitter convo or ex-convo, I guess what you call it now. And I was kind of torn on, you know, how much, because most people were all talking about Israel, right? And how they're like, oh, he gave it away.

You know, he started getting to a brawl and he messed up. But, man, you, you know, we've talked about this ad nauseum on this show. like we got to give Joe Piper credit man. I think Joe Piper like just was really good of biting down on his mouthpiece, coming forward, kept pressure in Izzy. And I don't know if Izzy would have won that fight five years ago.

I don't know. I mean, I would, I would think that Izzy would. But, you know, so there's kind of two ways that I'll look at it, right? One is, you know, you got to give Piper the credit where Chris do. or has all of these last four losses by Izzy, you know, with Strickland, DuPlessy, who else was it?

Amelov? Yeah, yeah, Mavov. Has he just, you know, lost a step? And certainly didn't look like it last night. You know, or has his time just come. You know, that's the way this sport works sometimes, too. He might still be doing, you know, everything right. And just, you know, that's the way, you know,

you're kind of playing Russian roulette every time you step in the cage to something. extent, right? So, you know, I'm a little bit more torn on this one than I normally would be. You know, normally I'm, you know, I'm like, look, you got to give this guy the, but I think there's, I guess what I'm getting at is I think there's, um, both sides you got to look at. And I think it's a combination. It's not mutually exclusive. Piper did great. Pfeiffer had a great game plan. Tuffed it out. I mean, showed guts, right? And if Izzy has lost, a step, then that's going to be enough to do what he did last night.

Yeah, it's a weird one because I did see talking to a couple of people on Twitter and one person, I remember who it was brought up a point, like Israel's style is built so much around timing and speed and accuracy, and it kind of reminded him of Anderson's still, and somebody brought that up. And I was like, you know, I didn't really thought about it, but that's true. Because Anderson got older, he wasn't as quick, his reaction time was a little slower. And when your entire style is built around countering, which is what Anderson's, did and what what Israel did to a large extent, that millisecond a difference, if you're just a

second slower on reaction time of like reacting to a punch coming at you or when you got a throw a punch, that changes everything. And we saw what Anderson as he got older. And here's my thing with Israel. Like I've never, like, I've never been a big fan of like telling guys they should retire, they shouldn't retire. You know, we had that conversation on the podcast occasionally because it's a conversation you're going to have.

But with Israel, my thing, what I don't want is I don't want him to go down that Anderson's silver path. I don't want to be talking about him losing. You know, when Anderson lost to Michael Bispving, it was like, okay, that was a great fight, though. Like, he almost finished Bisping, and Bispin came back and won very close to Zing. He kind of did finish Bisping.

Yeah, but like, I don't know that I want to see, and I'm not trying to, this is not me knocking the guy. I'm just saying, like, in terms of, like, historical context, I don't want to, I don't want to think about Anderson losing to Uriah Hall. You know what I mean? Like, that's such a weird, you know what I'm like, or whatever. Yeah.

Some of those matches he lost later in his career. Did it diminish his legacy? See, I mean, to a certain extent, I've always said this same with the Fador. You can't ignore it. Like, you can't just say it never happened. Like, if a guy continues to choose fighting and they go out on a, you know, 19 fight losing streak or like what BJ Penn did, it's like, you can't ignore it because they chose to fight. They didn't. They could have walked away.

They could have retired. They didn't. What I don't want from Israel is like four losses in a row. And now, like, he just lost the number 14 guy. Like, where, like, I think I rebooked him and I rematch him and I rematch with Gastle him? Like, what are we doing here? Like, what you know what I mean? Like, he's one of those guys.

Like, when he lost a streak. and they were going to give him an immediate title shot. You made the argument like, hey, is Israel out of Sonia? Like, of course you give him the title shot. And I was like, you're right. Like, he absolutely's earned that just by his historical of what he's done in his career. But now it's like, where do you put him? Like, you can't put him in there against one of the killers of the division.

You can't put him in there against like Hamzod or I don't know. I'm just, you know, whatever names are out there. Who does he fight? And like, how much, like, how much more do we, like, how much more leeway does he receive to say, you know, maybe, man, like, maybe it's just your time. And, like, he looked good. He didn't look terrible against Drickas. Obviously, Drichus beat him.

He didn't look terrible. He was looking good against Imbovon, and he got caught. Problem is, Israel never got caught and got finished like that before. You know what I mean? Like, he got caught in that one match against Alex Pereira that he was winning the whole fight, and he got caught late. That was it. He never really had that. Even when he lost to Jan Belhovic when he went up, he got taken down.

He didn't really get beat up. He just kind of got taken down and it kind of held on the ground. His last couple of fights, he got knocked out pretty brutally by Mavov, and he got beat up pretty good by Piper. He got hurt by Pfeiffer too on the feet. I mean, they were battling it out and Piper got hurt as well. But I don't know. I'm not a big fan to telling people to retire, but Israel's got such a legacy. It's like, do I want to, do I, do I want to see continued performances with potentially diminished returns?

Right. And it's like he's really made this a complex thing from the outside looking at him. I mean, who are we to say for what him for him to do? But he's really made it feel complex to analyze because like you said he's looked great in these performances i thought he looked great last night until he doesn't and you know i don't know how you uh break that down and say that you know this is what's going on it's not like it you know there's guys that get real chinny when they get old and you can just it's pretty obvious right there's guys that slow down dramatically when they get old and it's obvious his isn't really that obvious it's like he's you know people say that he's slowed down he doesn't really look that much slower to me.

I mean, maybe his reactions are a little slower. Like you said, he's not really countering, you know, as much as he once was. So, you know, to me, it's just became, it's become like very complex. And I say, hey, if you want to keep fighting, keep fighting, you know, like you're looking good. You know, hopefully your brain stays intact. And but like you alluded to, you know, the question is, what do you do with them? and I'm not sure. There's always another fight out there, right?

There's always a fight that makes sense. You know, the matchmakers are pretty good at that. Just finding fights that, you're like, oh, shit, we didn't think of that, right? Man, you know, I think most of us in the MMA circle, including me and you, like, we just want to see Izzy go out there and win, you know, and perform well and win. You know, I'm a huge fan of Izzy. I've been a huge fan of his for a long time. I just like to see him go out there and do great, man. I hate seeing him on a four-street, four-fight losing streak.

I hate seeing him get beat up. I mean, the one thing, knock, if I'm going to knock anything, is, I mean, his grappling look terrible. I mean, once Piper did get him down, which he had a hard time to get him down, which everybody tends to do against Israel. But I feel like, you know, he's defended takedowns against better wrestlers than Joe Piper, too.

And that's the part that really concerns me, is, you know, is he not grappling at all? Like, is he got some injuries where he's not able to grapple? And maybe that's kind of what's slowing him down a little bit, right? Is he's not able to go out there, you know, like I had that problem, right? I had a back injury for a long part in my career. And maybe he's dealing with that same thing where it's like he just can't really grapple much in training camp. So now his striking gets a little messed up too because he's constantly worried about getting taken down.

And I mean, that's the closest thing I can come. come up with, but, you know, it's like, what do you do with them? What do you do with them? The difficulty with Izzy, and I know I'm using two extreme examples here, but when Tony Ferguson was going through his losses and he was getting taken down and kind of beating up on the ground, we're like, man, you can tell he's kind of lost the step because Tony was such a good grappler. He was good on top, good off the bottom, like you could just tell there was something off. And then same thing with BJ Penn, when BJ Penn started losing, like, you could just tell. Like he lost the step.

He couldn't take a punch anymore. And, you know, and you have to look at age, and Israel is 38. But the problem is Israel hasn't been just getting knocked around. Like, he hasn't been going out there and just getting blasted or having bad performances or looking like he's just, like, lost a step. Like, he looked good against him involved, and he got caught. He looked good against Piper right up until he got taken down, and he took his back, and he kind of flattened him out.

Now, you know, at some point, you know, someone, whether it's his manager or his team or his friends or his family. Someone's going to eventually have a talk with him if he loses like a fifth or six fight in a row because then you're like, even if you're still looking good but then losing, there's still something missing. Like there's still something not clicking when you get in there. But I'm not like, I'm not looking

at Israel and saying, I don't see the BJ Penn thing. I don't see the Tony Ferguson thing. Yeah. Yeah. So like last night when he tagged Piper in that second run, I was like, oh, he's going to put him away and he hit him a couple times. Like, oh man, he's going to get him. And then he survived, credit to Joe Piper. And he got him down. And I agree with you.

Like there's a weird grabbing. He kind of got mauled on the ground, which is weird because that really hasn't happened much to his. He's gotten taken down, but not to that point. He got kind of mauled on the ground. I think, like, I'm completely okay. Is he continuing to fight? I don't want to have that conversation about, like, oh, he needs to retire. Because I'm not seeing from him what I've seen from other guys.

I'm using BJ and Tony as an example. But, like, those guys, I was going like, man, it's getting uncomfortable watching him fight. I'm not having that feeling with. I didn't really, honestly, didn't really have that feeling with Anderson. What Anderson, the problem was, I didn't want to see him losing. to guys he shouldn't have been losing to. What even about, like, terrible performances? It's more like, do I really want to soon lose to this guy?

Do I want to see that guy's name as like a win on Anderson's loss on Anderson's record? But just like anything else, you know, time, like, if he gets to a fifth or a sixth loss, I don't care if he goes in and looks as good as ever. If he's back to like five or six lost in a row, at that point, you're going to have to have that conversation. Somebody is. Yeah, but right.

But right now, like, I don't think he looks bad. Like, that's the weird thing. Like, he doesn't look bad. Yeah, a lot of it depends on I think like how he feels and You know how much damage is he taking things like that because you know in a lot of sports like losing five or six in a row like that's not the end I don't again and I know this sport's a little different too right because he could be taking a lot of beatings and you know a lot of brain damage and stuff so yeah man that's what I said like this is like one of the more complicated ones to observe from the outside and make a solid opinion about because and part of us the bias like i love izzie

you know i think he's a great human being and i think he's a great fighter i've learned a lot from watching him and um so it's just a more difficult one where like you said tony ferguson i was like bro especially after he fought gaugie i was like bro please stop doing this like we can't watch another one of those, you know, BJ PIN the same way. And like BJ was never a hard, never trained hard anyway. And it's like, okay, now it's obvious that this lack of hard training is catching up, right? And, you know, your, your talent isn't enough anymore. It's like, okay, so it's pretty obvious.

Okay, it's time to hang up with Izzy. Yeah, I mean, I'm on that same page. Like, it's like, you're doing great, bro. Like, just don't make that big mistake, you know. Yeah, it is like sometimes you have to have those difficult conversations where you're like, it's time. You know what I mean? It's just time. But like it doesn't feel like that with Disney and that's the tough part.

But like I said, at some point, you know, in a sport where wins and losses obviously matter, losses have to matter eventually. You don't want it. You don't want your career to end on a seven fight losing streak or something crazy like that. Nobody wants that. You know, like we all, I know, like there's that old adage you want to walk out of the ring, now you're carried out of the ring. So I understand that. But like I said, he hasn't been losing badly in that way.

So it's like, okay, you know what? I'm completely fine. Izzy keeps going, put him back in there. I mean, I joked about the gaslop. Maybe they really do that. Gasolm's a guy who's kind of a veteran, you know. Or they give him a retirement fight with Nico Price. Apparently, that's the thing to do.

But like, you know, give, but if he goes out there and he fights a gas slum or he fights, I don't, I don't want to throw out names, I feel like I'm insulting anybody. But he goes out there and loses, you know, a couple more fights, even if they're not bad losses, but he loses, then you're like, all right, like, you're sitting at six, seven loss in a row. Do you really want that to be your legacy, no matter how you cut it, people are going to talk about how your career ended? And then maybe it's just like a timing thing, not even like he's physically unable to perform

anymore. Maybe it's just like, you know what, I'm 40, 39, 40, maybe it's just time. But right now, I'm completely okay. I didn't, I really didn't feel that having that, like, you know, sometimes you watch a you're uncomfortable watching a fight. You're like, man, they should not have to let this dude in there or whatever. I don't have that feeling, is he can't keep losing because like it or not, no one wants to lose six, seven fights in a row.

Right. And again, he'd look good. And it looked like he lost to the better guy. And again, a few years ago, like, I don't think anybody would think that Joe Pfefer is the better guy. And maybe Joe Pfeiffer is that good. I mean, you know, maybe he, you know, is turning a corner and he's going to end up being that good. That's the other X factor. But that's kind of the whole point.

I don't want to take the credit away from Joe Pfeiffer to either, man, because, I mean, I just thought he looked tremendous also. I mean, he took a beating, you know, he took some hard shots. His leg, you know, was certainly beat up pretty good. But he stuck to the game playing, kept coming forward. And like, that's a, that's the perfect way to fight, Izzy. I mean, that's how you got to fight him. You can't stand there and let him do those reactions and counters. And, and Joe did not let him do that. And, you know, when we talk about like, like, that twist, tweet that you were talking about. I read that where he's, you know, the guy said, you know, he slowed down or whatever. And it's like,

has he really? I mean, not too many guys have fought him the way that Pfeiffer fought him. You know, there were guys that would throw with them and come back on him and stuff. But, you know, Joe Pfeiffer bid down on his mouthpiece and walked forward, taking shots along the way, took risks, and stayed on his game plan, stayed trying to take him down,

particularly with the body lock, you know. and they worked for him. So, you know, it's one of those things where, you know, I can only take, it's hard to judge where Izzy's at because partially because Pfeiffer looked really good. Yeah, I think I kind of like, I know you said it's like a complicated question, but I think I'm okay saying, like, Izzy can keep going.

But, you know, at some point he's got to turn things around or realize like it's not good better. I just don't know what his motivation is at this point to keep going. I mean, certainly he likes competing and fighting. and, you know, living lifestyle and everything. But, you know, I mean, a title shot's got to be in the, you know, way far away at this point. And, you know, against someone like Hamzad, I mean, that doesn't look good at all for him right now, right? So, you know, it's like what's your motivation, you know, what's keeping you going?

Yeah. Well, like I said, physically he looks good. And when you talk about slowing down, like, you know what I'm not talking about it's a little. I'm not talking where he has to look like he's standing in mud. He's just like when you're an accurate kind of pinpoint sniper, like Israel is that one millisecond of difference is the difference from winning and losing sometimes, difference when hitting a guy and not getting hit by a guy.

So when you say slower, I don't mean he's like slower. I just mean maybe he's just got that just that little difference in reaction time. What I don't, like I said, I'm doing. But all of that is like subjective, you know, let's us say any slower. Like maybe, again, five, ten years ago, Maybe Joe Piper would have done the same thing. Like to us, we're like, oh, he's slower because he should have beat Joe Piper. But, again, the way Joe Piper looked, the way that he fought, like, I'm not convinced

that Joe Pfeiffer isn't just that good. Yeah. And like I said, at some point, you know, you have to judge by record, even if it looks, even if he looks great, but he keeps losing. At some point, you got to have that conversation to say, do you really want to go out on a seven-fight losing streak or something crazy like that? But right now, I still don't have it. I still don't have an opinion to say that I don't think Israel-A-Sahnya can't win these fights.

Like, I thought he was winning last night. He was winning right up until he wasn't. You know, same with him with him. He's winning right up until he wasn't. Now, maybe the next one, he gets the guy, catches him, puts him down and wins, and we're all celebrating Israel-A-Sania again. But I don't think this is, I don't have that feeling of, like, uncomfortable watching him fight where I'm, like, cringing every time he gets hit or, you know what I mean?

You're like, oh, man, like, this is going to end badly. I don't have that feeling with Israel right now, so I'm okay with him keep going, but you know, you can't lose too many in a row before you got to start questioning, why am I still doing this? You know, beyond your own pride. That's got to be a tough thing for him mentally too, right? Where he's like, dude, I felt great. Like everything was going my way.

I was winning. And then I got caught. You know what I mean? So it's almost like a little bit of an out for your own mind too, right? Where everything was going perfect and, you know, the way the training camp plan was, the game plan, the strategy, all these things came together. And, you know, I just slipped up a little bit. You know, we can get the next one.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, like I said, obviously, you know, at some point, you got to win. That, you know, like it or not, you got to win at some point. You don't want to lose six or seven a row or something crazy like that. But, and, you know, like I said, the four losses he had, you know, up until the Piper fight, none of those losses were bad losses, honestly. Like, he lost strictly lost to Drikas in two title fights and they lost to Imoval,

who's the number one contender. Piper's the one, though. Like, Piper was like the number 14 guy had never been at that level. and then you're like, oh man, like you said, but who knows? Maybe five years ago it would have been the same thing. You don't know. You don't know for sure. But, yeah, I don't think, I don't think Disney needs to walk away.

I don't feel like we need to have that awkward conversation where we're like, man, he really needs to stop fighting. But like I said, at some point, whether he comes back later this year, early next year, like he needs to turn things around in terms of getting a win. You know what I mean? He needs to get a win, and that'll silence a whole lot of critics, silence a whole lot of doubters. Sure, yeah. And then he's kind of free to make his own decision at that point where, you know, you don't

want people to be like, you got to retire, dude, you got to walk away. You know, you want to, you want to win one and be like, well, do I want to walk away now that I got a win or do I want to stick around for another one? You know, so I think that's kind of like, that's where I'm at with Izzy. Yeah. And then when you get that win, you know, oh, I could do that again, right? Let's go. Yeah.

But, you know, to wrap it up or put final thoughts on it or whatever is a, I just, I don't want to take anything away from Joe Piper from that. I don't think we know how good he really is. And I think that's the, I mean, we've seen him fight, you know, and, you know, I know he's got a loss to Hermanson. And, you know, he's got some good wins too, right? I think I'm trying to remember Gasolam, I think he fought. He'd be gasoline, yeah.

He'd be gasoline, yeah. Yeah. You know, I just don't want to discount what he did, you know, because, I mean, again, Izzy looked great and Piper withstood. the best that is he had, at least the best that he had last night. I mean, I don't know, again, five years ago. I mean, that's all subjective and that's all guesswork and hypothetical. And, you know, I think that, you know, Piper might just be that good.

Yeah, we'll find out. I mean, obviously, he's got a big step up now. And so I'm wondering up for him, you know what I mean? He's going to get another top five, top six opponent. We're going to really find out how good he is. And there's potential there. He just don't know until the guy gets that opportunity, right? And he got that opportunity.

He made the most of it. This week on Networth and Chill, it's my birthday and I'm turning 32, so I'm sharing 32 life lessons I've learned that have actually changed my perspective. These aren't the picture perfect Instagram infographic versions. These are the real hard, uncomfortable truths about money, career, relationships, and everything in between. I'll explain why choosing a rest day is non-negotiable or your body will choose it for you, why you should never take advice from anyone you don't want to be, and why nobody is actually looking at you, so you should just go for it. Plus, I'm breaking down why you should always negotiate your salary, why individualism is making you broke,

and yes, why you should try eating a popsicle in the shower after a bad day. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com slash your rich BFF. Also, I'm sure you've heard a lot of rumors about fights being made, Matt, and I want to talk about this anyways. I know Dana confirmed last night that he's looking at August for Islam Mishka Chub's return in July for your boy Connor. I know, I know, the whole Connor thing. But maybe you heard the rumor, and I know I mentioned it to you, you know, before we did the show tonight, the rumor is, and I've confirmed a bit of this, that right now, and let me be clear, this is not done deal, sign, none of this is done.

I'm just saying this is the rumor, this is what I've heard, that Max Holloway may be the leading candidate for Conner's comeback in July. There's all the international fight with July 11th, that is the date. And, you know, Dana's like, I'm confident he's coming back. Now, I'm going to move beyond the conversation we normally have, which is Conner's never fighting again. So let's leave that to the side for now. What do you think if it ends up being Max Holloway? Is that a good move or a bad move for Conner's comeback? Well, if it ends up being Max Holloway, and that's a big if because not on the Max Holloway side, but on the Connor side, if Connor actually makes the walk, which you won't.

But if Connor ends up making the walk, I think Max Holloway is a terrible matchup for him at this point. I don't think that's the guy you want to come back against. I think Max Holloway is too good. And, you know, Connor hasn't fought in, what, five, six, seven years now? Five years. Five, over five years now. Yeah, I mean, that's a tough, tough guy to come back against, man. And, and, you know, Max is going to be hungry and he's going to, you know, he's going to be,

well, we know he's going to be in shape. He's going to be sharp, you know. So, but, you know, Max's coming off a loss against Oliver. I mean, I think he's going to be extra hungry. I think it's a bad time to even try to fight Max anyway. But, you know, considering how much Max has fought and evolved since the first time they fought to now versus Conner's life and career since then, I mean, I think it's a walk in the park for Max. And I don't think Connor, I've given Connor a lot of credit. I don't think he's a walk in the park for very many people.

But I think for Max at this point in both their lives and careers, I think it's a walk-in-a-part for Max. Yeah, the problem is, is that when you're off for five years, and that's a long time, your timing is different, your speed is different, your reaction. We were just about reaction time. You can spar all day in the gym. It's not fight time.

It's just not the same. And you see, I mean, are guys capable of coming back from that kind of ring rust or whatever and putting on performances? I always remember Dominic Cruz coming back for whatever it was like, four years off of knee injuries and beating Takea Mizugaki. Remember that he just took him? Absolutely mauled him. I'm like, oh my God, Dominic Cruz is back.

Then he had another knee injury and so on and so forth. But Connor is not like it, but a little bit. You know, speed, precision, power, you know, accuracy. And I understand the UFC side if it ends up being Max Holloway, because if you're going to pay Connor $30 million, $40 million, we're ridiculous. And by the way, he deserves it. I'm not knocking it. He absolutely earns that.

He's going to sell it. that shit ton of people are going to tune in to watch them fight. From the U.S.C. side, they can't just put him in there against a bum. They can't give him a guy that's going to look like a walkover or a no-name. Like, Connor's going to sell the fight regardless, but if you put him in there against a no-name or a guy who doesn't really belong in there, people are going to be like, why is this guy fighting Connor? It doesn't make any sense. Max is a name, though.

Max is going to bring more eyeballs because Max is a star in his own right. So I get it from the U.S. side. And I also understand, even from like, like, I agree, like I know Dustin Poria said this on Rogan's podcast. He's like, I thought Chandler was the perfect guy, and I think he was. Problem is, Chandler's lost like two or three in a row. He really won on the White House card, and Dana

kind of soured to that matchup, and I think I get it, I understand it, and obviously he's going to fight Marisa Rufi, but even if Rufi goes out there and Flatlines Chandler, you can't put who's Rufi? Like, I'm not knocking Marissa Rufi, he just doesn't have a name. You know what I mean? Like, if Dustin was still around

or, yeah, I don't know what to, but like Max is a guy who's going to help sell his side. He's not a total B side to this. You know what I mean? He's actually a name of itself. And he is a striker. You know he's not going to go in there and start shooting for double legs on Connor like a lot of guys would. Because, you put Connor into Oliver,

that's going to last three minutes. Maybe three minutes. Like, O'Olever's going to take him down, take his back. He does not have the defensive McHawley adds, and he's going to get choked out. And you're like, wow, that was kind of disappointing. Max was going to strike with Connor. But I agree with you, when you look at what Max did to Holloway, when you look at what Max did to

Dustin Poirier, in that final fight. Like, if that was Connor McGregor, I think he would have been out of their inside two rounds. Like, I don't think they would have gone beyond that. Like, Dustin's just got a heart of gold and, like, dude, will not go away. I don't know that Connor's built that way anymore. Connor just has not ever, he's not really shown that.

So I agree, like, stylistically, it makes sense because Max is a star, and he's going to strike with him. The downside is Max Hollow is one of the, what, three or four best lightweights of the world, four or five best lightweights of the world, and Connor's been away for five years. Right. Right. And the matchup makes sense, right?

Where Max is in his career, where Connor is at in his, whatever you call it, life, whatever. I mean, the matchup makes sense on that end. But, you know, if I'm Connor, like, you know, I try to get Chandler, right? You know, I try to get, you know, the right guy. Chandler's the perfect matchup for him. I mean, that's, I think, why Connor was originally kind of buying for that matchup. anyway. You know, I mean, how much does the UFC really care

if Chandler's on a losing streak or not? I mean, I think they're just trying to get a little extra name value in there and make it like competitive, I guess, you know what I mean? Like, you know, Max losing to Charles, but getting, you know, basically just taking down and wrestled and grappled for five rounds is not the same as Washington Chandler gets sparked out by it. But you don't think they can sell to people that it's going to be competitive.

You know, even if everybody knows that Max or the Chandler's on a losing streak, they're like, well, Conner ain't fought in five years. You know, they're going to expect a competitive fight, I think. And Chandler, I mean, he's always a competitive fight. You know, it doesn't matter win or lose. You know, even though he's lost a bunch of fights, it's like they've all been competitive. You know, I mean, he's in there throwing down for sure. But anyway, my point is I just think that's a way better matchup.

I don't think Max is the guy you want to come back against him. And I think it's a tough matchup for Connor. Even if they were, I mean, I don't know. I shouldn't say that. if they were staying competitive, if Connor had been staying competitive the whole time, we don't know where he would be at exactly. But, but I, you know, what I was going to say is had he been fighting this whole time, I would still probably pick Max, but again, I don't know where he would be at.

But that's just not the guy you want to come back against. You don't want to come back and fight Max. The problem is, and here's the real problem, Matt. We're talking about, you know, Chandler, I was going to throw it. I thought Drew Dover would be a good name. I just don't know if he has a big enough name because he's going to bang. and, you know, he's kind of like go bigger, go home kind of guy, and I think there's a world where Connor could catch him,

because, you know, Drew gets hit. I love Drew, but he does get hit. But I don't think Drew has the name, you know what I mean? He doesn't have the name matching Connor. But let's be honest, though you don't see blue with this one. It should have been Nate Diaz. Nate Diaz hasn't fought MMA in five years. He's been doing boxing.

That's not MMA. He's 41 now. You know what I mean? He's an older guy. They have so much history. And let's be honest, that would be a massive, massive fight. Like, remember the reaction when they say, is fighting Mike Perry was like oh my god like this is better than the well in theory it's better

than the rousy carano fight not as big but like people are actually more interested in like how that might play out I'm more interested yeah I'm way more interested but that's a whole of the conversation but Diaz was the guy and Dana here's where like here's where my promises is Dana's like I had a conversation when they made a couple weeks ago and he said they made him an offer he couldn't refuse well how could they make him an offer he couldn't refuse that you didn't make an offer if they couldn't refuse and say we're going to put you in there with 20 million dollars to like that boggles my mind. Like, how did you miss that one?

Like, how did you, because now you're going to put him in order against Max Holloway, I'm betting real, I'm betting pretty hard. He's going to get sparked by Max Holloway pretty badly. Now, maybe that's your plan to say Connor's really done and now we don't have to pay him anymore. Maybe that's the plan. I don't know. But like, Diaz was right there. And Diaz is coming.

Like, he's fighting in May. Why are you not offering this guy a giant paycheck and let him go fight Carter? Then we're talking about pretty even ground. It's not like Diaz's a young guy either. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think that you're spot on. I mean, I guess the question is that, which surprises me that they're even bringing Max, you know,

unless, you know, Max is just under contract and was like, you know, fighting for whatever his contract is. And whereas Nate is probably like, you know, I want a lot of money. And they're like, okay, well, we can get Max for a lot cheaper than that, you know. Again, we're talking about this day or day. I think it feels to me like all these matchups come down to the bottom line, right? There's no pay-per-views anymore.

So, like, they're looking at there a bit, right? They're not looking at make the fights that everybody wants to see and make the biggest fights. And that's what it feels like. I don't, you know, right or wrong, I don't know. But, you know, it doesn't feel like they're just looking for the biggest fight. And we know Nate Diaz and Connor McGregor would be the biggest fight that Connor could come back to. It would everybody would want to watch it. but is less people going to want to watch them come back and fight Max Holloway?

And the UFC probably saves $10 million or whatever they save, you know? So I get why they're doing that, but, you know, I just, I think it's a tough fight for Connor, man. I don't think that's like the, I don't think that's the move if you're Connor, man. You know, Max is a guy, you better, you got to be prepared for it. You better be sharp. You better be on point. You know, man, I just don't think it's a good move for Connor personally. No, I don't like it either.

And I think you're, I think you nailed that. I think you nailed the round on the head right there. Is it like, in reality, like, Connor and Nate is still a bigger fight than Connor and Max. But it's not, like, dramatically different at this stage in the game. Especially on International Fight Week, which a lot of people are going to be watching anyway. And it's, Connor is the A side in any fight. And like I said, to his credit, Max is too. Max is a good, like name.

They're not going to, like, I don't think the drop ball from Nate to Max is dramatic. And then you're right. Like, they're like, okay, we can pay Max $5 million or we can pay Nate $15 million. Is the $10 million difference worth it to us versus, you know, and if Max goes out there and Sparks Connor, then you can rebuild Max right back where he was. Like, yeah, he lost a fight to Charles. Didn't look, you know, he just got taken down and grapple. You can kind of sell.

He got grappled. He didn't, he didn't lose. He just got grappled, whatever, whatever. but he goes out there in Sparks Connor. Remember how huge Dustin Poyer got off of that. When he went out there and Spark Connor, how much bigger he got, how much bigger his career got from that.

If Max can go out there and spark Connor, then you got Max back right to where he's at to where you can sell him against, you know, Gachey or in a rematch with Gage or whoever else is out there at the top of the lightweight division. With Diaz, you're going to... D.S. comes back and beats him. What'd even do with D.

Yeah, like maybe it's a one-fight deal, and D.S. is gone anyways, you know what I mean? It's like, what are you building? towards. So, like, I get, like, that was the matchup. Let's be honest. That was the fight. Diaz Connor was the matchup. But when you start thinking about it a little deeper, you're like, well, well, what do you do with them? Like, I still don't think Diaz is going to do very well against most of the top-ranked lightweight. Like, you got throw them in there with fucking Ilya. And, like, I'll just absolutely demolish him inside two minutes. Like, is that what you want

to see? Is that where we're at now? Um, so yeah, maybe they're just looking at the long picture and they're like, hey, we can save $10 or $12 million by having Max go in there. And I mean, if you're asking me right now, I think Max beats Connor pretty handling if I'm being honest. I don't think it's a good matchup for Connor at this stage in his career. Yeah, that's exactly it. And the UFC, I doubt

they care who wins that fight. And if Max wins, again, Connor, I mean, if he comes back, which again is a huge if, you know, and let's say he comes back and wins. Do you think he's going to, is there any indication that he's going to stick around and start working

towards a title shot and get, you you know, back on the groove and back on the grind of things. Not really, right? We're not going to assume that. So we're going to assume, you know, that he's coming back. Probably if he is coming back, it's for a one-fight deal anyway. Now, Max goes out there and wins, which is he'll probably be the favorite, I think, you know, with Connor coming off five years.

And I think most people are going to be picking Max to win the fight. I mean, you said exactly right. Now he can build on that momentum and work that towards the next thing. because he's going to, you know, go back and, you know, be going for a title shot. So the matchup even makes more sense, even though the, again, if you're doing the, like what Daniel would call it going out of business sale and a boxing style, right, then you make the Diaz Connor fight, the biggest fight that you can possibly make. But they don't need to because they're not doing pay-per-view.

Yeah, yeah, it's true. I mean, like I said, but I agree with you. I don't like the matchup for it. If it actually happens, I don't like that. I'm actually for Connor at all. I think, you know, Chandler was the right fight. If Pori had stuck around, maybe they'd do that another time, or I don't know. But, yeah, I don't like his chances against Max in 2026.

It just does not sound like a fun fight for Connor. But, you know, we'll see, I guess. Yeah, yeah. And if I'm the UFC, I don't know if they think like this at all. But if I'm the UFC, I want Max to win. I don't want Connor to come back and be one of our guys. And then, again, probably never fight again. or maybe come back, you know, another five years from now.

You know what I mean? Whatever he does, come back once a year or whatever, which, again, I'm not putting any of my money on personally. But, you know, he comes back and wins. And we already know it's if, if, if he comes back, it's probably a one gig thing. So what upside is there for him to come in and beat a Chandler, right? There's not really an upside.

He comes in and beats Chandler. and they're like, okay, let's get you another fight, let's get you, and he's like, nah, I'm cool, bro. Like, I'm going back on my yacht. Yeah, or like I said, he beats Diaz.

What kind of saying to me with Diaz? What do you do then? Like, what do you do then? Like, what do you really gain? Yeah, you're right. So I don't know. The other one to mention to you, and I'm sure you heard this rumor,

is they talked about Islam and Mokachev coming back in August. It looks like it's going to be Ian Machado, Gary. Everything I heard is going to be Ian Machado, Gary. I know he's been pushing for it really a lot. I know Michael Burrell really wanted it. too, but it looks like they're going to go with Ian. Matt, is that the right fight to make?

And I'll ask you this question. Who is the welterweight with the best chance to actually beat Islam McAchev right now? Because it's not a long list of guys. I think you're going to give him a real problem right now. Boy, it's not looking good for a welterweight. But honestly, I mean, I think if you went with Ian Machado, Gary, Carlos Prattis, Sergio, Marias, any of those guys? I mean, I think you got the, I don't think you complain against making any of those matchups against Islam. I think there's another one out there that I'm not remembering, but.

Carlos Proches, he's got the fight against Jack Delam Adelaide, so he says it was pretty much down to Michael Morales or I E. Machoio, because they're the guys who are not booked right now. Yeah, yeah, okay. Well, again, I don't think any of them would be, you know, I don't think one significantly deserves a fight over the other. So it's kind of a toss-up. I think you can kind of, you know, flip a coin and pick who goes in and fights. And we also know both of those guys don't match up well with Islam. They're not the type of – they're not going to be a favorite.

They're not going to – there's not going to be a lot of people picking them to win, either one of them. So, you know, I think Islam probably is happy to go with either one. And I think the UFC's probably happy to go with either one. They're also not – I mean, Ian Machado is probably. probably got a bigger name. You know, I think he's, you know, a lot more outspoken. I think he'll sell the fight more. Like, not saying he's good.

I think he'll build it up because I don't think I don't, like, I think Morales actually has a better chance because he's so big and physical and hits like a truck. Like, you know, Ian's a precision striker. He doesn't, you know, knock people out. That's not his game. He's not really a guy who goes out there, just to be a snipes you from the outside and hits you like an Otisanya would

where he snipes from the outside. You go down and don't get up again. That's not really his game. Morales has that kind of power. The problem is, like it or not, Morales doesn't speak English, and when you put him in there, yeah, you're going to get a cool face off,

and I think it actually would be a pretty good fight because he's so big and physically strong. I saw what he did to Sean Brady, you know, shut him down pretty quickly. But Sean Brady's not Islam McAchev, and so I still think Islam would be the favorite to win, but then you look at Ian, okay, yeah, Ian's going to be an underdog.

I would 100% pick Islam to win that fight, but Ian's going to sell it. He's going to talk trash. He's going to get in his face. He's going to make it. good presser and ultimately now that you don't have paper, you just want people to tune in. You're not really worried about what the result's going to be as much as will people go to on Paramount Plus and watching the fights.

And I think more people will watch Ian fight Islam than Michael Morales fight Islam right now. Because as good as Michael Morales is, he still doesn't really have the name. His big high-profile wins over Sean Brady. And Sean Brady isn't the most high-profile name. So Ian Gary sells it better, even though I don't think either one of them have a great chance of beating Islam, but he's going to sell it. and like it or not, that still matters.

And it's not like Ian's a bum. I'm not saying now that Ian's a very good fighter. I'm just saying, like, I don't like his chances against Islam, but I don't like anybody's chances against Islam. Right. Right. That's a thing.

Note it doesn't feel analyzing those fights. It doesn't feel like any of them really have a great chance. But I get your point, too, though. Morias probably looks like he has a better chance. But again, when you're flipping that coin, are you picking the guy that, you know, has a better chance or the guy that's going to sell more than more people are going to want to watch and tune in. And obviously, they're going to pick the guy that's going to get more eyeballs

on the sport and more eyeballs watching that show that night. And, you know, but I agree with you, like, Marais probably has a better chance against his, you know, he's got the one-punch knockout power chance, right? He's got the strength. And that's a good point that you brought up with, you know, what he did to Sean Brady, even though he made it look easy. Um, or I'm saying he did make it look easy, whereas, you know, Islam, it certainly wouldn't be as easy, right? I think Islam is a superior grappler to Sean Brady. I don't think Sean Brady would probably even disagree with that.

But, you know, is Islam that much better? At least there be that question, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think the answer is probably yes. But, you know, at least we would have that question out there in the open. Like, well, you know, he's at least he's got. chance like look what we did the last grappler I mean like you remember

Ilya like when Ilya was coming up and Ilya was kind of making that slow rise towards the top he's just wrecking people left and right and when they knew it was time they booked him against Volcanovsky then they booked him against Holloway and that is one of the greatest one two combinations to build a fighter's profile of all time to

the greatest of all time he took out both in devastating fashion first person to knock out Max Holloway ever I mean that was ridiculous if you're if you're Morales if you're Michael Morales, why not get, you know, why not, like, let him continue to build? Because I don't know that anyone's really going to beat him. I mean, if they do, then, hey, that's the sport.

But, like, why not throw him in there against a Kamar Usman, who's a big name, who's a big name, you know, and they're clearly not giving Usman the title shot. I know we talked about that before we were both okay with him getting the title shot. Clearly, it's not going to happen. But if you give him Usman, then you give him a big name. And what's wrong with, you know, Morales is like 24, I think, 24, 24, 20s, he's a young guy. Let him build up a little bit more.

There's nothing wrong with that. If he went out there and Rex Sean Brady, he probably, Sean Brady's just not a very big name. He goes out there in Rex Kamar Usman. Like, actually, it goes out there in Rex Kamar Usman. If he does it, people are going to be like, oh, man, like, holy shit, that's Kamar Usman.

Then you put him in a title fight. Then you build him towards a title fight. Whereas E.Michato, Gary, already has a name. You know what I mean? People know him. A lot of people don't like him. So you're going to build it based on that, based on that profile.

Why not let Morales build up a little bit more? Let me get another win or two, high profile win. you know, build that mystique. That way when he fights Islam, it doesn't matter what he says. Doesn't matter that he doesn't talk great or doesn't talk trash. He looks like a human wrecking machine and then you put him in there against Islam. But right now, the hype is, we think this guy's really, really good, but people still don't really know him.

But people know Ian Gary. Well, the nice thing about that Usman matchup idea, too, is if Usman wins, then he's, then he's, it's a true, like, number one title contender fight, right? 100%. You know, Ousman's been buying for this title shot, too. That was the other person that I was thinking about. He's been rightfully by him for the title shot. And look, if he goes and wins, he says, okay, I could beat these youngsters still, you know, so you can't really deny me now and you can't deny him if he wins that fight.

And if Morales wins, then it's going to be hard to deny him, too. So I think that's a great matchup. I think it's a great call. Absolutely. And listen, I don't love E. O'Garry's chances against Islam, but it's a fight. Ian's a very tall, lanky guy. He has shown pretty decent takedown defense.

I mean, obviously, you know, Bilal couldn't really get close to him, but Balao's not the wrestle that Islam is. But Islam's also a much better striker. You know, he's a pretty well-rounded guy. I think people, you know, always want a pigeonhole. Islam is just a grappler, but he's actually got pretty decent striking. He's not, you know, elite, but he's pretty good. And, uh, and Ian's going to sell the fight.

You know what I mean? He's a tough dude. I mean, listen, he went, he went three hard rounds with Shabat, you know, arguably if he would have five more minutes, he may have won that fight, and Shabkat would look like the guy. And, you know, unfortunately, he's kind of out of the picture and looks like he's going to be out of the picture for a while now. Ian's the guy.

I'm fine with him getting the title shot. I think that's actually the right call. I don't love his chance to be this one. But that's not what you really, that's not really how fights get made. Well, like it or not, that's, you know, fights get made based on, you know, what you've already done and how much you're going to sell a fight. Like it or not, that's the truth. And Ian will sell a fight, and Ian will be a bigger name in there.

Do I like his chance to beat Islam? Hell no. I don't like anyone's chance to beat Islam, but, you know, I don't think he has a great chance. But, hey, who knows? Yeah, that's exactly right. You don't make the fight based on whether you, a title fight, whether you think the challenger's going to win. You know, you base it on has he earned the title shot.

And, you know, I think there's a good argument that Ian has earned the title shot. Again, you know, the one hiccup with Shavkat is kind of the argument against that. But overall, I mean, you know, I know, I know the U.S. is going to look at can he sell the fight? I'm not going to look at that, right? And, you know, but I'm going to try to avoid that part of it because, you know, I don't care if he sells a fighter. And I want to see a damn good fight.

I want to see a good scrap. Unfortunately, like, I don't think Islam and Ian's going to be a great scrap. So it doesn't excite me personally. But yeah, from the UFC's perspective, I can totally understand it. Real quick before we get out of here, Matt, we talked about this a little bit last week when we were talking about fighter pay and some of the things going to be going to on right now and Dana addressed it again last night. Somebody brought up John Jones for like the 19th time about the, which to my point,

I'm like, why are we still asking about this? Clearly, Dana said all he wants to say and he just kind of got pissed off again about it last night. And actually that was one time where it's like, I kind of get it because like watch a press conference. He's already talked about this a million times. But here's my question, man, real quick, for we get out of here. You know, we know what the White House card is.

We've talked about the falls of the White House card, and it's not what was promised. And now, you know, they're probably going to get crushed by Rousy Carano in terms of viewers, like it or not, it's true. did the UFC blow it with John Jones? Because John Jones is kind of in a Connor situation where he's like, we know he's got one fight left. Like he's not going to stick around and defend the title. He's not going to beat whoever he beats to the White House and come back and say,

I'm going to go on a 10-fight run. We know that's not the case with John Jones. But John Jones is in a much different place than Connor McGregor, meaning John Jones is still the best in the world. Arguably, you could put him, if he was still active, you would say absolutely is one of the top two or three-pound-pound-fpound fighters in the world. But ultimately, you know, Dana, you know, we were never going to put him on the car. I don't want to talk about money because it was never going to happen.

I don't know. But did the UFC blow up? Because like when you think about all the blowback to this White House card, we talked about it when it got made. It's not a bad card. It's just not what was promised. Like, how much different would we be talking right now if it was John Jones and Alex Perel?

I don't think we'd be complaining that much. I don't think you could complain that much. It is a much bigger fight. Yeah, I just, I don't think the UFC cares if we complain, though, right? Because we're the same, I don't, I think the same amount of people end up watching it, whether we complain or not. I mean, I think we complain about a lot of the things that the UFC does. And I almost, I would think I was saying this other day, like, I don't think there's a such thing as the UFC blowing it.

Like, we all watch. We all talk about it. We are all going to keep watching. They almost can't blow it. Like, they could put on complete shit cards for the next year. And I think we would still watch the same and talk about it the same. I just, I think that they're so powerful that, like, it's just set in stone now. And it's unfortunate because, I mean, we talked about this the other day.

It's like, I think that John deserves the money that he's asking for. But that's just not the UFC's model. That's not the way they operate. You don't end up getting those types of paydays with the UFC no matter what you've done. And it's just kind of tragic, you know, that John is in that situation. You know, of course, like he's given them a lot of excuses to, you know, for him to be in this situation, you know. So they have a lot of outs on that. But I mean, that's, you know, it's just not the way that it should be.

I mean, he should be making the money that he earns. And unfortunately, he doesn't. But I don't think it's going to affect the viewerships on the White House card. I think the fact that it's a White House card, the fact that it's UFC, I think that says enough right there. It almost doesn't matter who they put in there. And again, they put good fights in there. And I think for them, that's good enough, right?

Good enough is good enough. They don't have to go the extra mile anymore. They went through that phase, right? They brought in Brock Lesnar. They brought in CM Punk. They, you know, they did all the, you know, they brought up women's MMA with Ronda Rousey and they had Connor McGregor. Like, they've done all that stuff.

And I think now at this point where they're at with TKO Endeavor and, the whole, you know, being public and everything. I mean, I just don't think that they're going to go through that again. I think that they're going to just keep pumping out fights, and we're going to keep watching. And for there to be a competitor in the market to try to put on better fights, I mean, I wouldn't even say it's an uphill battle. It's like an up-a-cliff battle.

Like you're trying to go straight up a cliff, a cliff, Rocky Cliff and, you know, I don't know how you're going to get up there. I mean, I made the argument the other day, getting old to John Jones subject, I made the argument the other day like it or not. Like, the White House card is better than the Rousie Carano car. Like, it is. I know it's not bigger. I didn't say bigger.

I said better because Rousie Carano could be really ugly. Like, it could be an ugly fight or over really quick because Ronda could potentially do that. Then you look at Francis and Philippe wins. I mean, Crano potentially do that too. Yeah, maybe Rhonda, you know, Ronda still got her, supposedly her concussion issues. you get punched one time in the nose and fights over. Philippe blends, I like Philippe blends, but come on now. Like, you know, we're all expecting in Gondon and go out there and absolutely torch him in, you know, 30 seconds.

If it doesn't get over that quickly, it's probably going to turn into an ugly fight because that's what kind of happens with the heavyway fights. The one fight I'm actually intrigued by is Mike Perry and Nate Diaz, because that is kind of interesting. But again, we're talking about one guy who's been fighting a BKFC for five years, and one guy who's been doing boxing for five years. I don't really know what to expect, but I am excited for that one. And they did put some legit prospects on there.

Mohama McCaius fight Adrian and Mariah. that's a fun fight. And, you know, Saladin Parnas, the guy from KSW's fighting over there. That's a pretty interesting fight. But, like, just being honest, like, Ilya Justin Gachie's a better fight. Cyril Ghan and Alex Pere is a better fight. I don't really like the O'Malley Zahavi fight. It's probably the weirdest one they made.

But, you know, okay, it's still interesting, I guess. You know, and obviously, you know, Chandler, Rufi, it's probably going to be chaotic for about 45 seconds until it's over, but it's going to be fun for that 45 seconds. And I think Steve Garcia, Diego Lopez is honest. of my favorite fight on the card. I think that's going to be pure mayhem. I think it's going to be awesome. I love Steve Garcia and Diego Lopez is fun to watch

everybody he fights except Alexander Volcanozky. So I think that's a really interesting match-up as well. So it's a better card. It's not bigger because they don't have a Connor or John Jones or, you know, but it's a better fight card. I think the rousy Corona card, if I'm being honest, could really suck

when it's over. It could be like the Jake Paul Mike Tyson fight when it's over like you feel dirty for having watched it. You know what I mean? Like, it's going to be bigger because it's got the bigger names. But is it better? No, it's not better. But I agree with you what you're saying.

I think when I'm getting out with old John Jones, I just feel bad because it's like if anyone has earned a right to get a giant payday into his career, and it's not like John Jones has been sitting out doing nothing. Like, he just fought, I mean, I know he fought a couple years ago and he fought an older, clearly not the same dude's steepe, but like it's not like John's been gone for five years and he's coming back. Like, he's been around. He's asking, you know, for a couple of fights here and there.

but I get it, I guess you're right. You're probably 100% right in terms of what the U.S.C.'s thinking. We don't really care. Everyone's going to continue to watch the White House regardless of whether John's on there, or Conner's on there, or whoever's on there. But taking the White House part of it out, I'm just like I would like to see John Jones get that final payday. But, you know, I mean, I guess he did.

They offered him $30 million to fight hospital and they turned it down. So, I mean, maybe they're just like, hey, dude, we offer you a 30 million, and you said, no thanks. Yeah, I think that's about all they're to say. I mean, I just think it's the UFC's model, you know, and they, you can't come in the UFC expecting to, no matter what you do, you can't, you know, expect to walk out with those types of paydays. And John's trying his best, rightfully so and good for him. I just, it's not going to happen. The UFC has the market, right?

It's not like they have a piece of the market. They are the market, right? Like other people have like little crumbs of the market. But like they are the market. So, you know, they get to decide. And again, when we, when we want to watch a fight on Saturday night, we want to watch UFC. So it's like, you know, are we going to watch it?

Of course we are. But you got to remember, you all, I mean, you got to remember, too. Like, if you go by the MVP model putting on these one big one-off fights, there's only so many people out there that you can sign up for those kind of fights. And they're all built from the UFC. like Francis built his name in the UFC Ron to build her name in the OC Gina didn't Gina's the one outlier

because she really did build her name without her And like would anybody buy that on a pay-per-view? No. Maybe some people would But it wouldn't be a big pay-per-view Like people are watching it because it's You know a quote unquote free on Netflix Like we all have Netflix anyway

So it's like we already have Netflix So we're going to watch it Are they going to get a bunch of new subscribers? Maybe like a few. I don't see them getting a bunch of new subscribers out of it. But, you know, so what's the, are they really taking a piece of the market there? Not really. Like, people are watching it because they have Netflix, not because, you know, they're, I don't know,

because it's, you know, another market share of MMA. Yeah, I mean, the problem is, like I said, everyone, like, remember when Affliction did, but they did years ago and they took everyone who wasn't in the U.S. and they put it on a card. It didn't do well, and they went out of business in two events, and they were done. And outside of Fador, who was like the one outlier, the guy who never fought in the UFC who had a name, and he did legitimately have a name. They're paying Tim Sylvia $800,000, and then he goes out there and gets wrecked by Fador in 45 seconds or whatever. And you put, I mean, they, do you remember?

Like, those affliction cards were ridiculous. They had, like, really good talented guys. But even then they couldn't make it. Two events, and they're gone. And let's just say Rhonda goes out there and submits Gina Corrano. on it but then sticks to her word and she says this is just a one-fight deal i'm not fighting cyborg i'm not fighting holly holm i'm done again well who do you put on there then i mean i guess you could roll the dice with daz again but who do you have him fight like connor's not going to be available

uc's never going to allow that to happen where he leaves the uc so what are you going to do with daz who's he going to fight or mike perry for that man like who's not going to fight outside of each other like who's out there that would sell you're bringing luke rock hold again like i like i like look but come on now like you know like what are we doing so like there like there is there there is always fights to be made. Like, we would have never dreamed up this Karano Rousy card. Sure, but I'm saying, there's only so many,

there's only so many names before you start reaching into, like, are they going to book Anderson against Nate Diaz or something? Like, what are we doing here? You know, it is, it is limited. But I also think, you know, we've been around the sport long enough that we're used to being surprised and I'm like, wow, they got some shit done there

that we did not expect, you know? Sure. But, yeah, like you said, there's no market. share there for them to grab. Like the UFC owns the market. I mean, it's exactly what you're saying. There's like, it's all ex-UFC guys on there.

Yeah. Outside of Carrano and Felipe Lins, right? No, Philippe Lins was from the UFC too. Oh, yeah, true. Yeah, yes. Even him. So, yeah, so it's again, they're trying to take a share of the market that's been discarded maybe by the UFC.

I don't know if he's discarded. That's not the right word. But, you know, it's already been ran its course through the UFC. So, you know, again, people are going to be watching it because they have a Netflix subscription, not because they're so excited to watch this.

Now, the D.S. Perry, if it were headlining or, you know, I think there's people that would probably pay for that, right? Like, they'd probably watch pay-per-view for that. But honestly, if they were going to do that, like Perry, probably want to do it under bare-knuckle, rules, right? And I probably like it better for this under bare knuckles being honest.

Like, you know what I mean? I don't really necessarily want to see Nate Diaz go out and grapple Mike Perry. Like, I don't really want to see that one sitting thrown under a bare knuckle fight. And here's the other problem, Matt. Let's just say the card is awesome, which I'm betting it's not going to be, if I'm being honest. I think the Makaya-Marias fight could be great. I think the Parnas fight could be great. I think Perry and Diaz could be a lot of fun. I don't expect the main and co-main to be fun. I'm just being honest. I think, you know, watching in Ganu, decapitated dudes, always fun to watch, but, like, you know, that has a very

short shelf life when you're like, oh, yeah, he decapitated Philippe Lins. And like I said, I think Corona Rouseley could be a really ugly fight. I think it could be real, real bad. But let's just say it's awesome. Let's say they go out there and put on a fight for the ages. It's fucking Yoanna versus Janeway Lee or whatever.

And it's a three weeks later, we're going to have the White House card. And everyone's going to talk about that, like it or not, it's going to blow up. And a month after that, if it is Conner's comeback, no one's going to give a shit. what happened back in May because the U.S.C. then you're going into Islam, who is a massive name in a big star

in his own right. So, okay, the U.S.S. is like, go ahead and do your little rousy Corona thing. We're going to do White House Connor Islam in a row. You can't beat that. And no one can combat that. And no one can say, well, we got the best guys. No, you don't. You don't. You're saying the same thing I am in different words, right?

They own the market. Yeah. And they have all the best fighters and say, what are you going to do? It's going to Again, you're climbing up a straight up cliff Yeah, you're ice skating up You're ice skating uphill, what you're doing. Yeah.

Yeah, there's so limited even possibility of trying to get into that game. I respect them for what they're doing, you know, what MVP's doing. I respect it for what they're doing. And I hope that they are able to accomplish some things. Will they? I mean, the question.

I mean, like you said, a lot of people have tried it. Having Netflix behind you, it certainly goes a long way. They could be a differentiator. But, yeah, I just, I don't know what the game plan strategy is. I'm not trying to knock it. I'm just being honest. They did that the Jake Paul Mike Tyson fight, and the undercar was Katie Taylor and Amanda Serrano. And they said, oh, my God, most watched women's fight ever.

75 billion people tuned in. 75 billion people tuned in waiting for Mike Tyson, Jake Paul. No offense. When they did the rematch, it didn't do, you know, even on Netflix, it didn't do great numbers. And if you notice, shockingly, I haven't seen Netflix book another big women's title fight since then. They booked Jake Paul and Anthony Joshua. They book Rossi and Carrano. So, like, Netflix wants a return on their investment.

They're giving you $50 million. They want to know they're going to get that back in subscriptions or advertisers or whatever else you're going to get. you're not going to get like Nate Diaz against who Mike Perry after this car like Mike Perry against it and if Rhonda is really going to be gone and she's not like yeah you do her in home you could run that back and sure there'd be a real interest there because there's a storyline here or God

Cyborg would be even bigger but I think Cyborg would just murder murder Randerouser right now wouldn't be competitive but you could do it you know what I mean you can potentially do that fight but like where else do you go like there did you see this rumor they were talking about doing a reality show now and I'm like yeah that worked out so well for the ultimate fighter like the ultimate fighter was awesome about 10 seasons i think it peaked with kimbo that season with kimbo and roy nelson and brandon shob that should have been the end of it

because like everything like it's just not resonated since then you had a good run you were on one of the good seasons forrest griffin you know they had some good seasons but about 10 i think 10 was the limit they're like we're going to do an ultimate fighter show because that's worked out so well for the ultimate fighter lately like what are you going to do yeah i do find that kind of interesting though because I could like they do like to show with Mr. Bees like it's a different world now you know like so I do think um it could they might do pull something out creative there like it's not going to be like the ultimate fighter if I mean if they try to do just a cop of a copy of the ultimate fighter I mean I don't see that doing shit really but but man like it could be interesting how they

go about that I think I think they're going to surprise us I don't know if it's going to do great numbers or anything i don't know if it's going to help the bottom line or build guys up or anything but i'm kind of fascinated by what what's going through their head there i mean they know that the ultimate fighter hasn't done shit in years right they they're not dumb they know what they're doing and um you know when when you get someone like jake paul who's such a strong social media guy and um you know uh really with the times on that kind of stuff um you know in the types of connections he has like with a mr beast or something I mean, it could be, I think it might surprise this.

And I'm kind of interested to see what angle they take with it, you know, more so than, you know, wanting to watch another Ultimate Fighter show, right? I'm not too interested in that. But I'm interested to see that angle. Yeah, I mean, the problem is, is like, even if you bring in, you know, 16 prospects, you try to build them up beyond just to fight stuff, you know, build up their social media presence, build up personality. And then, you know, they go in there against a legitimate.

guy and they get absolutely wiped out, then it's all over anyways. You know what I mean? Like the chance of you striking gold and finding a Sean O'Malley who kind of can do it all. He's a really good fighter. Great personality. People love him. That's a diamond in the rough, man.

That's like a one in a million shot to get a Sean O'Malley. Because even when you look at the other, like Carlos Proches is an incredibly exciting guy, but he's not like this giant social media presence where like, oh my God, everything he says, I've got to hang on his everywhere. Like Sean O'Malley is like the perfect package of like personality, flash, you know, Flair and also, you know, a really, really good fighter. Do you know how rare that is, like, to try to find that? And by the way, talking about the market share, everybody in their brother wants to get

in a contender series. Who the fuck you're going to find? There's not that many fighters out there. Like, they signed the one guy, that Saladin Parnas guy from KSW. He's really good. But, like, even he's on, like, a five-fight win streak. He had a loss a couple years ago. It's not like he's an undefeated, like, whatever.

You know, like, I think PFL had a good guy, that one guy from France that they had come in and they just stopped using him. but even then, like, he lost the second fight. So it's like, what are you going to do? Like, you know, so yeah, you're fighting an uphill battle or ice skating uphill how you want to say it. I hope they find, and I'll say this before we get out of here. I hope they find success for this one reason.

I think the UFC is better when they do have a natural competitor that forces them to sign guys to contracts, to bigger contracts, you know, to go out and seek out those free agents and things like that, just like when they went after Eddie Alvarez, when he was at the end of his deal. They're like, we need to sign Eddie Alvarez because he's starting to build. because he's starting to build up some hype. He started to build up a name. And then they got in the whole, you remember the whole dispute with Belator and Eddie Alvarez's Strike Force?

Like they had a legit good heavyweight division. There is not a heavyweight division in the EOSC right. That is terrible. But they had Josh Burnett and Daniel Cormier and all those guys, Alster Overeem. They had competitors. And then the UFC bought Strike Force. Why did they do it? Because they saw it as a potential threat.

Not saying they felt threatened, but they felt as a potential threat. We need competitors to make the EOC better. So I want MVP to succeed. I just don't know that there's really a formula to do that long term. Yeah, that's what I said. I don't know the game plan or the strategy either. And that's the eternal question, right? How do you do that?

Like you said, we'll see, man. But I'm just, I'm not going to count these guys out just yet because I think those are some really smart minds. Look, I mean, we never thought Jake Paul would be what he is today. I mean, and look at what he's done. You know, we can talk all the shit about. about him. I mean, that's easy to find. But I mean, he's put up some big fucking numbers, though, right? You know, everybody in America knows his name. So I just see, I'm not going to count them out, man. I think these are the type of people that, and I would count them out to being

a real competitor to the UFC anytime soon, because I just don't think that that's really legitimately possible, but in terms of, you know, having a big presence and big influence and getting some big names and building some people up, look, I'm not going to count them out on that. Yeah, I don't, I'm kind of done counting out Jake Paul. Well, here, you know, when he, I count him out when he fought anti-Joshua, right? You know, he took a step too far. But like, we've seen that from a mile away, right? I'm not going to count them out on this. Rowson, May, December, your main event?

Jake Paul debuts in MMA against Anderson Silva. There's your main event. I can see it. Yeah. I'm one thing that the first thing I thought of when they did this, I heard about this Ultimate Fighter copy or whatever you would call. I was like, dude, they're going to bring in a, I don't know if they're trying to make it legit or not,

but I was like, dude, they're going to bring in a bunch of influencers, There's like a KSW and Sneako and that's going to be the whole show, them guys fighting each other. Of course that's not going to be a very legitimate high level or anything that is going to build contenders or anything. But it will do numbers. And if that's all they care about, you know, because that may be their game plan.

Just a crazy thought. not knowing a single thing about them, you know, put on, put on those guys, like a KSW and, I don't know, sneak. I don't know that many influencers, but, you know, these very popular people, which are garbage fighters, don't know what they're doing, et cetera, but then bring up the Adronomariases and the, I forget the other guys freaking names, you know, but bring the other guys up underneath them, right? So they get the eyeballs through the bigger influence type people, but they're still like building these lower guys or lesser known guys that are real fighters underneath them in some way.

I mean, it's probably a far stretch, what I'm saying there. I mean, I don't think, I mean, who would have thought influenced their boxing women? Did you see Eddie Hall's fighting fucking, what's his name? The dude, Tommy Fury, Tommy Fury. Tommy Fury is like Eddie Hall, the giant bodybuilder. They're doing a boxing match. and misfits. Like, who knows?

Like, you know, maybe you do it. It's funny, real quick, I want to mention it. I thought you were talking about the influencers are bringing in a couple of legit guys. There was this thing they did in WWE years ago. They did like a real tough man competition. Like, I think they call it tough enough is what it's called. And they had like wrestlers putting on boxing gloves and actually fighting each other,

like real fights, like real fights. And this dude named Bart Gunn wrecked everybody. It was like, he was like a random tag team dude, but he was like actually legitimately tough guy, knock people out left and right. And at WrestleMania, you know what WrestleMania is, I know you're not a wrestling movie, you know what WrestleMania is.

They put him in there against Butterbean. You remember Butterbean? Oh, yeah. Butterbean knocked a fucking shit out. Like, he knocked him down, like 10 seconds in, the guy got back up, and he, I mean, he laid him out so bad. It was like one of the craziest, nastiest knock-offs of all time,

and they're like, well, there goes that idea. So maybe they'll do that with the Jake Paul thing. They'll bring in, like, Sneako and KSI and all these, like, Infolio's, I show speed, and they'll bring him in, and then they'll have, like, the final against, Muhammad Mikhail, and Makaya will just go wreck them. Like, well, we try.

Right, right. That's why I keep saying, I am interested in the angle, and I don't think it's going to be a conventional angle. Again, that might be a crazy idea that we're talking about here, but I don't see this being just your standard everyday UFC-style angle. And what they do with it, I have no idea. But it's going to be different, and it's going to be unique. and I'm not going to be surprised if we all end up watching.

Yeah, you never know. Like I said, I'm all for creativity. And like I said, give them credit. Like a lot of people love Mr. Beasts. A lot of people love that reality stuff they do. And I'm always shocked. I'm like, who the fuck is this? I'm like, he's an influence.

I'm like, okay. So, I mean, you know. Yeah, who's hell is this guy? Oh, he's got 30 million followers. I mean, but I bet you, it was funny. When I remember when I show speed popped up at some UFC thing. And I was like, who the fuck is this? and like one of our guys, his kid

was like, that's how I show Speedy for, I bet your kids, but that's who that is? And you're like, who the fuck are these people? But they know. And if they're going to tune in a while, I remember when I went to Jake Paul, Tire, Tiring Woodley in Cleveland, like, I think the average age there was like 14. I was like, this is the weirdest crowd ever been around. Everyone's like 14 years old.

This is bizarre. But people wanted to see Jake Paul fight, so they paid to go see it. Well, hey, you can trick a teenage mind a lot easier than a 40-year-old, right? So that might be the game playing, right? Get into the young minds and then, you know, 10, 15 years

from now, again, if you do it like how I'm saying, right, you have the influencers who get the eyeballs and then you build up the younger guys below them. It's like, okay, well, that 14-year-old kid just heard about, you know, this fighter you know,

that is going to be anything for five or 10 years, but now that kid, you know, he's 19 and the fighter's big and he still knows who he is. Again, I'm speculating, and making shit up as I go along here. I have no idea, but it might be the move. I don't know.

I think they're going to surprise us, I feel, though. I know names like Salt Poppy, okay? I didn't know who the fuck Salt Poppy. He's a random influencer boxer who actually has, like he fought Tony Ferguson and stuff, but I'm like, I don't know that name otherwise. Okay, yeah, I did hear him. Yeah, I just remember that name when he fought Tommy, yeah.

So I'm like, all right, well, I mean, I guess it works to a certain extent because I know their names now more than I ever would before, so sure. But, all right. Matt, people want to check you out. what you got going on or am I allowed to say you got something coming you're going to be doing a little traveling I'm not going to say you're doing a little traveling coming up here oh yeah yeah I'll be traveling to Thailand according to my guy fighting over in one FC

April 11th Josh Pereira check him out it'd be his second fight in one FC towards ACL and his first one kind of uh you know unclimactically anti-climactically anti-climax and yeah so he's making his return so we're excited for that I'll be leaving on Thursday and yeah, so that's going to be exciting. Check me out on AdI'm the Immortal, Instagram, and Twitter, The Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook.

You know it. Absolutely. I always want to say big thank you to everyone that tunes in the show. Make sure to check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify, and of course over on the best website in the world, MMAFighting.com for Matt Brown. I am Damon Martin. We'll see you guys next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider.

Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you there.