MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Jake Paul vs. Anthony Joshua, Who Should Get the Next Shot at Islam Makhachev

Episode Date: November 25, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin discuss the fallout from UFC Qatar including who is actually going to get the next shot at lightweight champion Ilia Topuria and did Ian Machado Garry make a compelling argument that he should be fighting Islam Makhachev for the welterweight title? Plus we react to the news that Jake Paul is actually facing Anthony Joshua in December plus much more … Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odu, it's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier, CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part, Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses

have made the switch. So why not you? Try O-D-O-4-free at O-D-O-D-O-O-com. That's O-D-O-O-O-O-com. Support for this show comes from Volkswagen. As the U.S. gets ready to host soccer's biggest moment on a worldwide stage, Volkswagen is helping people discover new turfs and new ways to play the beautiful game right here in the U.S.

From deaf and power wheelchair soccer to beach and futsal, Volkswagen is actively supported. supporting all the communities and teams within the U.S. soccer ecosystem. They're supporting talent from across the U.S. soccer extended national teams and are focused on helping to give these less widely known forms of soccer a platform moving forward. From the pitch to the sand and everything in between, welcome to our turf. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the fighter versus the writer.

I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown and Matt. We are coming off of UFC Qatar this weekend. We have a week off with no UFC because it is Thanksgiving week. And then, of course, we're rolling to UFC 323 next week, one of the final two shows ever on ESPN. Before we get into all the MMA stuff, let's talk about the real important thing of the day, though.

Did you see that Israel, Adasanya, finally got to be Maynard James Keener from Tool? I actually, funny end up just a minute ago, actually, yeah. Yeah, that's cool. I wrote a little, like, just a little article about him talking about how much he loves Tool and Maynard James Keenan kind of geeking out, finding out that Israel out of Sanya's a fan, and then you Maynard James Keenan posted a photo they met in New Zealand last that's pretty cool. Yeah, it's very cool.

I can probably say that I was one of the first, I think, to fighters to hang with Maynard and train with him a little bit. So I'll take that little notch in my belt. Yeah. For people who don't know, like Maynard James Keenan's like a huge jiu-jitsu guy. Like he is a fan of the sport, obviously. And so hearing that Adasanya was a fan, I thought that was pretty cool just because, like, you know, it's just like you never, you never know what people are going to be fans of.

like he did he he talked about like I think it was a I care what what song it was but there's like a 12 minute a lot of 12 minute tool songs but like a 12 minute song that like really gets him pumped up before fights and stuff and I was like that's so cool and like they actually got to meet and hang out last night so that that's pretty awesome is there anybody that's not a fan of tool though I mean come on like how can you not be a fan of tool like tool like I like I like I like you not be a fan of tool like I like I like I like you not be a fan of tool like I like I like they're amazing I like I like I like I like I like I'm actually, I actually like all of his stuff. I like a perfect circle. And while I don't listen to a lot of Pusufor or Pusufor, I still like them. Like, I don't listen to it a ton, but I do like them. I'm not to tell you, I wasn't actually a huge fan of tool for a long time, like in high school, because they were kind of like trendy then, right? Like it kind of, you know, during that kind of alternative scene and, you know,

I kind of lumped them in with that. And then when I, you know, I actually took the time to listen, I was like, oh, this is why they're trendy, right? You see, like, I just knew the basic song, you know, the radio songs, mainly sober was like the, the main one. And it was like, it was like, yeah, that's a cool song, you know, a little bit odd timing and stuff and some cool effects. But, you know, that's not fucking like cannibal corpse, bro.

Come on now. And then, yeah, once you start digging in, I mean, tool is a fucking rabbit hole, man. Oh, yeah. What is your, what is your favorite tool album? You have a favorite tool album? I mean, if I had to pick, if it was, like, just forced to pick. I mean, you can't, it's hard to pick a favorite, but Anima would probably be the top, just the, man, only because it was like, like, the best songs are on Anima, I think. But, man, I mean, my God, every fucking album, bro, especially the last one.

I'm not, the name's not coming to me, but the most recent one. fear anoculum yes yes man like what a fucking album right just my lord I'll always have a special place for undertow and anime is it anime or anime what is it anime anime anime that one

those two are like the ones but I but I think a lot of that is also nostalgia because I was younger and got into those albums so it's like you know like I like I'm a big nine inch Nels fan but like the downward spiral will probably always be my favorite album because I remember when that came out when I was in high school. Like, you know, like, I was like, I loved that album.

So those two probably, but like there's not a bad tool record. Like they're all like, they're all different levels of awesome. Like, like I have to go with broken only because it was the first CD that I ever bought in my life. And I didn't even know who nine inch nails was. It was back in the day when you go to the record store and you would buy based off of what the album looked like. And I was like, well, this looks kind of cool. Like it looks way different than everything else. just had an end only you know like no real art like just kind of some odd stuff and

i was like yeah this looks kind of cool and then you know as soon as you put it on i don't know if you remember that record but i mean it's like like the first songs that you kind of builds up but then it's just right in your face the rest of the time this is the first day of my last days yeah yeah you remember oh yeah that's a one of my favorite tracks yeah so yeah but like i said there's not a bad tool record they're all really good i mean like i said there's not just a like what mood you're in that day is what tool record you put on because they're all really good so yeah i agree on that note like i said it's just a fucking rabbit hole man like like it's one of the very few bands that you can be just a casual listener and and love to shout them or you could be a music

theory professor at harvard and still go deep into it i'm not a huge deaf tones fan so i just lost like half her audience of metal fans i'm not a big deaf tones guy uh but that but the track that Maynard did with them on White Pony Passenger, you know what I'm talking about? That's like, I bought that record simply because I wanted to have that track, like on a vinyl record because I love that song so much. That's funny that you said we'd lose a bunch of metal fans on that conversation because, like, I'm not a deaf tones fan at all, honestly. Like, okay.

I'm glad I'm not alone in that. They've had a couple. So I never got what the, the hype was about them. They got a few songs here and there that hit hard. And I'm like, damn, like, they're on. point but honestly they never did it for me man yeah i've never been a big fan like i just like i never understood the hype not saying they're not you know talented or whatever i just just never understood like everyone's oh my god this is like the greatest thing ever i'm like

yeah it doesn't really do a lot for me so you know whatever they got a couple songs there in there but kind of the same way i'm like yeah like when since we went down did their tour this year and they announced the three dates they had Toronto Chicago and jersey and they had a different opening band for each one. They had corn, Avenge Sevenfold, and Deftones. I was like, oh, please let me get one of the ones I like, and I got Avenged Sevenfold. I love Avenged sevenfold. See,

that's where I'll lose every metal fan because I don't think corn is good at all. I think they're one of the worst bands in history of metal. I have no idea how they got so famous. I do like their bass. Like, their bass signs are pretty

fucking nasty, but I cannot stand dudes' vocals. man i feel like he's like crying to his mom the whole time as a teenager and i'm i don't want to listen to someone crying about how sad they are you know i can there i could probably count on one hand the amount of corn songs i really like if that makes sense like i don't own any corn records so i'm kind of i guess we kind of park her cars in the same garage because i'm not a big corn guy either like of that era yeah i just like there's a couple like there's like five corn songs i'm like oh that's pretty good yeah it's a pretty decent you know what would have

we go to these shows and I've seen corn a couple times live and all my buddies would be there and they'd be like moshing and fucking loving it and like dude corn is the shit and I'd be like do you hear what he's saying like you're moshing to him like crying about his life and shit I'm like what is so cool about that like let's go to hate breed where we're moshing about like positive energy and shit you know or slayer go go go moshed about Satan or something yeah i was i like of that era like i like seven dust a lot i like seven dust a lot oh yeah yeah like that was a way better band yeah i tell you i had dinner with the drummer morgan rose last last year really yeah yeah yeah when they came to uh was sonic temple now yeah yeah we sat down hung out for a couple

hours and yeah it was really cool man like like what a cool guy you know i and i didn't even know until after i had dinner with him you know he introduced me to some of his uh solo records and stuff I mean, it's nothing like Seven Duss. It's very unique music, but I didn't even know we had those side projects. So that was very cool. They're one of the best bands to see live ever, in my opinion. They sound so fucking, how do you even say it, like, almost like their record. Like you, but, you know, some bands, like, you can just tell, like, boy, they really produce that album because they can't reproduce that live at all, which is fine.

You know, there's nothing against that. but these guys like you can to me they sound like like their record you know like they recorded the record live and I love that personally yeah Lajun Witherspoon the singer I've seen them live several times and they're always really good always reminds me like when I saw like because I'm a big fan of bad bad omens band Bad Omen and like their singer hits a lot of ranges in the songs I'm always like oh man how's that going to translate to the live show he kills it like he

crushes it live but there are definitely bands I'm not going to name names they're definitely bands we can hear them live and you're like, oh boy. Yeah. It's fine, right? They had some production on that album. Yeah. Again, like I said, it's fine, right?

It's art, you know, and when you're in the record, that's an art. Live is a different art. Some people are good at one, some people are good at the other. But I love it when they're great at both of them. And it's just a different level of respect when they're great at both of, particularly live. It's not what it used to be, I don't think. But to me, music,

like live music is what the whole the whole system is about right like having a band playing live is what it's about like it's not about putting out the best record it's about going out and i mean it's about putting out good records but you know not not the cleanest record not the most perfect record but going out and making it perfect on the road and in front of the people and connecting with the people that's what it's about man yeah i'm going to see i don't know you're a fan or I'm going to see spirit box this week I know you know a spirit box guy yeah they're like them

they're coming they're not gigantic fan but I I dig them I like I like them they have a good mix of like their kinds of songs and I dig them so I'm going to see them this week and then yeah so I just wonder if I'm if I'm getting old you know because you know like our parents would be like this fucking new music socks you know you know and I don't know if I'm turning into that guy or not

but it doesn't feel to me like there's like rock and rock and heavy metal have like evolved into something good right now right it feels like overproduced and it feels a little bit almost poppy in a way right where

there's no like Lamb of God out there right that's just like raw and just fucking four people just playing their shit right there's a I feel like every band has like keyboards and synthesizers and like programmed drums

and like auto tuned vocals and I'm just like guys like can we just have something raw and I just haven't seen that band really lately yeah yeah you're not wrong you're definitely not wrong about that there's a lot of overproduced and I don't know I just I just got to roll

with the times and find things I like and kind of pick out like I said I'm a big fan of bad omens I'm a big fan of motionless and white I like Iceland kills they're fun just because they do like creative like horror movie songs and stuff like that like And I've met those guys, an incredibly nice guy, Spencer Charnas, who is the lead singer, incredibly nice guy, and just a big horror fan. Obviously, I have a big horror fan.

So I like those guys. I totally understand what you're saying, though. Like I saw our guys, I know we talked about Killers' Confession. I saw them here a couple nights ago, and it's fun to see them, like the old lead singer mushroom head now doing Killers' Confession. They put on a good show. Yeah, I wish you would have told me. I would have went to that. I didn't even know what happened.

I told you about it. I told you about it. Was I out of town or something then? No, you're always, you're always, you always forget, you're always busy. Fair enough, fair enough. But, yeah, I don't know what it is. And I got a certain respect for the bands that, you know, like Mushroom Head. I fucking love Mushroom Head.

And they got synthesizers galore, right? You know, but that's what they are. You know, there's all the bands that they feel like it's kind of the same thing over and over. There's like the I prevail type stuff. So again, I got a respect for them. I like them. But it's like, where's just the rawness, you know? Like where it feels.

it should feel a little bit garage bandy, right? Where I feel like Lamb of God, Slayer, Megadeth, even Metallica, like all these bands could be playing in a garage and it would sound, you'd be fucking stoked, right? Like all these songs could be written in that garage. But now it just doesn't feel that way. Maybe I'm, maybe there's something I'm missing. Maybe someone can send me some DMs or something

and introduce some new bands to me, but I haven't seen anything like that. I saw a really funny comment yesterday, Dave Mustaine, you know, Dave Mustaine, Megadeth, they're putting out their last record and then retiring, and they're doing a tour around it. And somebody interviewed Dave Mustaine, they said, you know, what do you think of, like, today's metal?

And he's just like, I don't think it's good at all. There's no good metal bands out there. He's like, what happened to, you know, Master of Puppets, what happened to, you know, rain and blood, whatever. Right. And I saw a really funny comment. He said, I think it was on Twitter or Instagram, somebody said, Dave Mustain criticized his metal

and then puts out the shittiest song ever. The New Meginas song is not good. And I was like, I was like, he's given off real old man yelling at Clouds Energy. Like, you know, like there's nothing good out there. Like, I know, I know what they're saying. That song wasn't, you know, it's not anything special. It doesn't feel like. But it's mega death though, right?

Like, it's a very much a Megadeth song. You know, it's not like, it's not the old Megadeth, but we haven't had the old mega death for a long time. So don't be expecting that anyway. I love Megadeth, but I have. haven't loved Megadeth albums in like 15 years. I think the last one I really liked was like euthanasia. I like that album.

Euthanasia was amazing, yeah. I think that's right. Cryptic writings. Yeah, it was all right. Yeah, like I count down to extinction and euthanasia were, you know, that was like kind like the end for me of like I can listen to the whole record without skipping a song. And now it's kind of like, yeah. I really, really wish that Dave would have called up Marty Friedman and been like,

let's do one last record, bro. I think it would have been a completely different record. not that it's necessarily been heavier or thrashier or anything but marty freeman he's what to me he's made dave mustane shine right like like the synergy there was absolutely phenomenal yeah yeah well you know all good things come to an end and i guess they're getting out while they're getting's good they're doing one last tour and wrapping up then you get bands like iron maiden who never stop they just keep going they're touring every year they just never stop so uh i think i think dave will do more albums, though. He's saying that shit

right now, but he's been doing this for like, what, 40 years? Like, what the fuck's he going to do? Megadeth, or, I'm sorry, Metallica will come out with a new record and he'd be like, fuck those guys, I'm going to make a new record. He did a re-I think I heard he did a re-recording or ride the lightning for his lines

for the last Mega Death. I heard that, yeah. I think, was it Ride the Lightning or is it creeping death? I care one of those songs, one of those songs. He actually wrote on back in the day, so I care which one it is, but yeah, you know, but to me like Dave you don't need to do that bro like so so many interviews he's still talking about them and I'm just like like Dave give up on a man we love you bro like like you completely outshine Metallica in your own way you didn't make the money they made you didn't fucking you know you don't have the notoriety quite as large as them but like you did your own thing like you know you're better than them didn't they break up in like 82 like You're really holding on to this a long time.

Yeah. It was like before Ride the Lightning, bro. Like, come on. It's like the girlfriend. Like, you're married now and you got like two kids with a new woman, but you keep talking about the girlfriend you broke up with in high school. Like, why are you still talking about this? Right.

Is they still talking about your first kiss? Like, man, that fucking girl, that fucking bitch. I wonder what she's doing now. Like, dude, it's been 40 years. Let it go. All right. Let's talk to them in May this week. course, U.C. Qatar went down. Pretty solid

cars. Actually, the first, like, half of the fight car was just some nasty finishes left and right. Keoguchi's back. He picked up a big win, and he's out there saying he wants to fight his teammate Alessandre Pentosa, which is kind of cool. But obviously, main and co-made event were the focus. Armand Srukin goes out there and submits Dan Hooker inside two rounds.

Not totally unexpected to what we predicted for that fight. And then, of course, Ian Machado, Gary, goes out and get the decision win over Bilal Maham, big win for him. But I want to start with Armin, because Armin goes out there, you know, a year and a half off to hold disaster back in January. We know about the back injury and drop it out of the fight with Islam. He comes in here and absolutely dominates Dan Hooker, you know, gets him on the ground

and eventually advances his position and gets the arm triangle choke in the second round. Of course, afterwards, he called out Ilya and Alia Teporia. And Ilya is, you know, they've kind of been going back and forth on social media. Obviously, we all know the story that Ili is supposedly going to fight Patty Pibble at next, although I don't think anything's actually done. There's no contract signed or anything. how sticky is this situation now because like armin was kind of out of sight out of mind and and really weirdly out of action as long as he was like from january till now it's like

ten months he was out of action longer but he came back took out dan hooker again kind of what we expected but has he just complicated the ufc making the patty ilia fight even more i guess for for the ufc again we know what the patty ilia fight is right there's an entertainment fight that Patty has not earned that position at all. Armand has earned that position. You know, if they want to hold over his head that, you know, the things that happened back in January, I, okay, I guess. I understand that maybe.

But we know for certain that, you know, if it's Ilya and Patty, they're just, they're trying to sell tickets, right? Or get people to subscribe to Paramount Plus or whatever. They know it's going to be a great buildup, all that stuff. armin is the threat to ilia not that patty's not a threat either i mean we've talked about before like he might be more of a threat than we then we're going to give him credit for but everybody's ilia's going to be a favorite and probably a large favorite at that armand i don't know if you even put ilia as a favorite he'll probably be a favorite but not a big favorite right like there'd be

a lot of money coming in on armin you know being the underdog like i wouldn't i'm not sure i'd stop myself from putting money on armin because he looked great the other day hooker was a perfect comeback fight for armin right it's a quote unquote tune up fight in a sense but very high risk still right like dan hooker is a savage but about the closest

stylistically that you could get to ilia um you know in the top you know 10 or 15 i always find a little weird when champions call for certain fights because I've always loved that mentality when you become a champion just fight the next best guy like you're not when you become champion you're no longer the hunter you're the hunted just you know whoever they put in front of you you just kind of take on the next best guy and I understand rivalries you know I always remember George St. Pierre

fighting Nick Diaz when Johnny Hendricks was the number one contender and it was kind of like why are we doing this but there was a rivalry there obviously they never got to fight where they were supposed to fight before and we all got it and you know GSP dominated the fight in one and then moved on to fight Johnny Hendricks. But, so I've never, I've never been a huge fan of champions being like, I want this guy over that guy or, you know, give me this guy over that guy. But we all kind of know what this is. Like, I like Patty.

Patty turned me around a lot in the last couple of years. Like, he's looked good, and he went out there and absolutely dismantled Michael Chandler. Say what you about Michael Chandler's record. You can't say that, like, guys just go out there and absolutely dominate him. Like, every fight outside of the Charles Oliver rematch, which was basically, you know, Charles taking him down and ground. you know, basically grinding them on the ground for five rounds, which, you know, is what it is. No one had just run through Michael Chandler.

Like, you can say, yeah, he lost to Pori, he lost to, he lost to Gaichi, but both those fights were freaking battles. There was no battle with Patty. Patty went out there and just ran rough shot over Chandler. So regardless of Chandler's record, I think it is a meaningful win. But that being said, Armand's the guy. Like, Armand is the biggest threat. You said it.

Armand's the biggest threat. Armin is the most dangerous guy. Armin is the guy with the best chance to dethrone Ilya. And I know Ilya's downplayed that And he went as I think he went in far at one point He said I'll go to 170 and not give arm in the shot I get it is you know hype and you're trying to build up a fight whatever But if I'm ilia like if you if you fight patty

Or you or they give you any choice in the matter And they say what do you want ilia and he says why want to knock out patty Because that dumb you know britt's been talking too much or whatever And you got armin who just went out there and absolutely dominated Dan Hooker, he is the legit number one contender. To me, it's a little bit of a bad look on Ilya. You know what I mean? I'm not saying Ilya should control his fate,

but like at this point, if you're Ilya, you should be calling for Armin because he is clearly the number one contender. Like, no offense to Justin Gachy, I think Justin Gage is awesome, but like no one's going to, I don't think anyone's really crying foul for him to not get a title shot.

It's Armin. Like, Armand doing what he did last night just kind of proves it. And it's like, I mean, I think it's a bad look for Ilya if he doesn't ask for Armin. You know what I mean? Like, obviously, he only can control so much. Like he can only control. And they're like, hey, you're going to fight Patty.

Well, yeah, of course he's going to take the fight and he's probably going to win. I would wager he's going to be a pretty heavy favor to win. And I would probably pick him to win. Armand's the fight, though. Armand is the guy who presents the biggest threat. Armin is the guy who could legitimately go out there and dethrone Ilya before his reign really starts. Yeah, that's a guy. exactly right and again you know the the UFC is what's going to ultimately make the call right

that's the world we live in right the champion doesn't choose the UFC chooses and it's going to be up up to them whether they choose an entertainment fight that's really going to get a lot of hype and get probably get more subscribers I guess um or if they they pick the rightful number one contender which is arm and that's all it comes down to right that's all it comes down to right that's all it comes down to. What are they going to pick? The guy who earned it and deserves it or the guy who may bring more viewers or may bring,

you know, I don't know. You know what I'm saying. Like what they do this all the time, right? The guy who is getting more clicks on TikTok gets the fight. And, you know, we as purest of the sport, I don't think any of us really enjoy that or support it.

but the UFC's a business and that's what their goal is right make more money and get more subscribers well here's here's I think here's where the UFC made a mistake Matt I think you'll probably agree with me on this if the UFC had gone ahead and gotten a fight done and announced Ilya versus Patty already January Paramount Plus debut Ilya versus Patty main event blah blah blah done deal we're already hyping it up maybe we got a press conference like back in New York they brought them out to do a face off or something

then armin winning last night it still matters and we can say he's next but we already know what's happening like the contracts are signed nothing you know done deal now you've created you've created a bigger problem because while you're right patty is the bigger name probably going to sell more tickets there's going to be a loud contingency of fans and media and fighters who are going to say dude armin's the guy now like you've got to give it to arm and i understood not putting armin back in there after the back injury thing blew the fight with islam he messed up that's on him and I was fine with them saying he needed to win another fight after that because that's on Arman that's not on anybody else he did and he went out there and took out a top five or six guy in the world and Dan Hooker and you can sit here and say all day like it was a stylistic good fight for him whatever Dan Hooker's legitimately a top five or six guy in the world took him out dismounted and beat him inside two rounds you've created a bigger problem now because if you already announced that fight we were just like well now we're going to have to wait till like July or August to see Armin versus Ilya now you haven't

made that fight and there's going to be a lot of loud chorus of people saying because it's not like Patty, it's like Patty is the clear number one guy and now you got another number one guy. We'll get to Welchway in a second, but like, you could make a compelling argument for Michael Morales, you can make a compelling argument

for Carlos Pratchez, you can make a compelling argument for Ian Jick, Gary, and I think you can make an argument for Kamar Usman, and Kamaro's probably got the lowest argument of terms of, like, who's gotten to bigger wins recently, but those guys you can all make arguments for. It's hard to make an argument.

for Patty Pimbleau over Armand Sarukian when his biggest win is over a guy who is a two and five record in the UFC. I think it still matters, beating Chandler matters, but you can't compare his resume to Armisturukian. Yeah, that's a fact. And like I said, it's an entertainment versus a rifle, rightful deserving person. And we know that that's what the UFC is right there in the entertainment business. So that's probably what's going to happen.

But I do think it's also possible that fight never. got signed because they were waiting to see how Armand did. Did he make it to the fight? Did he and how did he perform in the fight? And maybe they were just kind of waiting to see what happened there before they signed that fight. And now maybe Armine gets the fight. Or, you know, the other way to look at it is, you know,

Armine could always just fight the winner of Patty and Ilya and assuming that Ilya wins, which you probably will, now Ilya has you know another title defense and it makes the our ilia armin fight you know put it off a little bit and make it bigger and build it up a little more right now he's a however many time defending champion you know versus you know where he would be at right now so you know i think there's there's points on both ways and again if this is just simply a sport um based off your meritocracy armin should absolutely get the fight. If it's a sport based on entertainment,

which is what it is, then I think there's obviously some you know, there's some debates or both ways there at the UFC headquarters. Yeah. I mean, in terms of like debate who actually deserves it, there's no debate. It's Armist's Rood. Right, right.

Because like I said, this is not, like you could almost make a better argument for Gaichi than you could against Patty just because of what Gaichi's done overall. And you know what I mean? But like... Now, I read some in their day, maybe, you know, know, you see so much bullshit on social media. It might have been complete bullshit,

but it said that Gagie is committed to retiring now. Was that spam? He said, I think he said, I think he's manager said at one point, like if he doesn't get a title shot, he would consider retirement or, you know, to like try to book him against,

I care who it was, like Patty or whoever was, like he wasn't interested in that. He wanted a title shot or a bigger fight or he would consider retirement because, you know, he's kind of detailing his career anyway. So I don't think that's actually going to happen.

I think everything is a public negotiation tactic. you know, like, I'm going to walk away. Well, here's, here's an extra $100,000, go fight this guy. Oh, all right. So, who knows? But it was mentioned. I mean, it legitimately was mentioned, like he was kind of getting pissed off that he was kind of getting passed over.

Although I don't really think he's getting passed over. It's not like he was like, you know, on this tear of like six wins in a row. And, you know, he's getting passed over for Patty Pimble. I'd be more pissed off by his armistarouki in now. Like, you just went out there. And now you've won whatever six in a row, finishing guys, beating Charles Oliva, beating Benil Derrius, beaten Dan Hooker. and Patty Pimblit off a win over Michael Chandler's going to get the title shot over you.

If anyone has a right to get pissed off, it's Arvin Saruki. And again, it's just a clear indication of where the UFC is headed these days, right? And the fact that it's even in the conversation just tells you where the sport is headed. And that is away from being a sport and being more of entertainment. And, you know, again, as long as the guys understand that, I think, you know, I don't, I don't if there's really anything wrong with it, right? As long as it's understood. But, you know, it screws over a lot of guys, too.

You know, it could potentially screw over Armin right here. It just bugs me because you had that thing in June when Armin or when Ilya beat Charles, he had that face off. And I understand they had to get the Paramount deal done. And we all kind of assumed, well, yeah, you're going to want to wait until early next year to put on that fight because it's huge. We all get that. But why not get it done?

Like what is the whole? I've heard rumors. By the way, I want to be clear. about this, this is not me reporting fact. This is just rumors I've heard, is that there was a holdup in contract negotiations on Ilius side for the patty fight, is what I've heard. What that means, like, how much money is asking for, or what the concession is, I have no idea.

But I've heard rumors that there was some sort of contract dispute there. Maybe that's what the holdup is. And now, if that's the case, you and I both know, the UFC, you know, they're not above revenge. They'll just be like, oh, well, now you're fighting fucking Arm and Sarukin. Have a good time, buddy. Like, you're not getting the big payday for Patty Pimble to fight. You're probably going to win.

You're going to get Armin Saruki. And so maybe that's how Armin gets to fight is because Ilya pissed off to UFC. Yeah. Who knows? I mean, and he's in that position, you know, to be asking for more. So, yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out. But realistically, you know, Armine's probably going to end up fighting both of those guys, right? And I think he's going to beat both.

personally i think arman's the next guy you know i think islam is the only guy that armin's not beating you know at least you know in the short term you know with the landscape the way it is currently yeah i agree i think armin i think armin you know is is the most dangerous guy out there clearly to me the most dangerous guy for ilia like you know what i mean just like we talked about with sean o'malley back when he won the title and they gave him cheetah vera and it's like well you're getting cheetah but we know the real number one guy is marab du alishville we all know it's Marab, but sure, you're going to fight Cheeto. It would almost feel similar to that.

Like, Cheeto didn't deserve a title shot. He got it because he had the history of Sean O'Malley. Patty Pimbley doesn't deserve the title shot, but it can't come back to Bichito occasionally. Like I said, like, I think O'Malley took a lot of shit for that fight because there weren't a lot of people like, oh, man, Cheetah really deserves it. We can't wait for this one. I think you blew it by not just booking the Patty fight right away and saying, Yeah, I mean, look, they took some shit for it, but.

We all watched it, enough people bought it that they made a shit ton of money. And then when they put on another big fight, you know, whatever, a month later or two months, like, whatever it was, like nobody didn't buy the fight because they're, oh, I fucking the way they did Cheeto or what, you know what I mean? So it's like, do they really care, right? It's, you know, the UFC talks about how, you know, boxing is kind of a going out of business sale every time. They do kind of the same thing, you know, and not in the sense. that it's going out of business sale every time. But they're just trying to maximize each event. And there's nothing wrong with that either.

I'm not saying that's wrong. But that's their goal. Each event is they're just trying to maximize that event. And, you know, they have the, the, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, everybody watches UFC now. Like the brand is powerful enough. They can put out anything. They put out these fucking apex cards all the time.

Like, no one cares. No one's like, oh, I'm not going to watch that big fight now. no one cares like when they put out a big fight everybody buys it so they're almost to the point they might beat that point where they can't really fuck up right like there's there's i don't know what they could do to fuck up so bad that people actually like stop watching the UFC i mean i mean dana white slapped his wife and we seen it on teeth like no one was like oh i'm not buying the next card now right like i don't know what they could do to fuck up like they are that powerful now I mean, they have to live up to it, but I mean, they got a deal now where they made $7.7.7 billion over the next seven years.

And that's in writing. That's in stone. That ain't going nowhere. It's easy to live up to it, right? Well, that's what I'm saying? Like, they don't like, you know what I mean? Like, they're getting that money regardless. Now it's just up to them to put on the cars. Like, yeah, that's why I'm like, I don't know. Maybe, like, will more people tune in to watch the Patty fight?

Probably. But, like, ultimately, it's the first show. If they do the first show on Paramount, I think people are going to tune in regardless just because it's the first show in Paramount. Yeah. And maybe that's what they're kind of debating in the back rooms right now, right? Is like, do we need to put Patty on this or, or can we just throw anybody in there? And which Armin and, you know, is obviously not anybody either, right?

Like, but, but, you know, they might be talking like, hey, how much can we pump up Armin? You know, how much behind the scenes can we do? And I feel like they could probably, I feel like Armin, Armourne is not a strong personality like Patty Pimbled. But I, you got, you got to think he's got a great. story right there's going to they'd be they'll find more than enough stuff to make a great storyline there and and um i i hope that they end up making that fight that's what i'm going to hope for i all all arman has to do is he just needs to get a little bit better with his vernacular do what did what did what kabib did when he was learning english do what hamzot did when he was

learning english just say you're going to go out smash everybody and people love it you don't have to speak perfect english you don't have to be eloquent with your words you don't have to be the greatest trash talker I smash everybody who gets in my way I smashed them that's all Hamzot only said that for like a year straight and we're like yeah yeah yeah yeah kind of right there I guess the the difficult part is the fact

that you know Armin has lost to Islam right and it's kind of like well you can talk about smashing everybody but you ain't smashing Islam buddy yeah well and to that point Islam like and Islam isn't the guy who has like the most flashy, exciting style. He's a wrestler, but he's just a monster, and he is very popular now, and obviously him beating JDM the way he did was incredibly impressive. I know we talked about that last week, but now, you know, we're kind of at this point now. We mentioned the last

week, though we kind of argued that, like, Ousman might be the fight to make just because it is a tougher matchup for Islam. And I think so. My argument was, like, there's only so much time because, you know, Ousman's 38. You're not going to, if he gets to 40, you're going to start, maybe you are going to start seeing that decline. But last night, of course, or on Saturday, the night Ian Machado Gary got the decision winner of Bilal Muhammad impressive performance he went out there and beat a former champion kudos to him

he of course called for a title shot immediately after and state his case he just beat the former champion the number one guy he should get the shot and he's not wrong in terms of like who he just beat in level of competition but here's the problem I think Ian Gary's running into because Ian Gary is clearly a very good talker he loves to I don't think anyone

loves to hear the sound of their own voice more than Ian Machado Gary but here's the problem with Ian Gary is that, yeah, like, he has a win over Carlos process. That was a good win, right? Carlos goes out there and absolutely obliterates Leon Edwards, and no one even remembers the fight with Ian Gary. You know, like, Ian Gary, and I know this is a really harsh comparison, Matt, and I'm not

trying to insult the guy, but Ian Gary has a little bit of like a Colby Covington thing going on, where he talks a lot. I'm going to smash this guy, I'm going to destroy him, I'm going to dismantle him, I'm going to knock him out, and he goes out there and gets a decision win. Yeah. And I think his last finish was like three years ago against Daniel Rodriguez. I think that was like three or four years ago. I'm not saying you shouldn't talk a big game.

You should. Like, that's part of the sport. We just talked about the entertainment. That is part of the sport. But here's the problem that Ian Gary runs into right now is that you got Michael Morales, who is a blistering finisher, 18 and O, went out there and absolutely walk through Gilbert Burns and went out there and absolutely walked through Sean Brady. That is like an, like that guy doesn't say a word, didn't speak English. All you know is the

performances. You look at, you look at, you know, obviously Uspin has the name and he's a former champion, of course, like he's got that going for him. And then Pratchez, say what you will about Carlos Prattis, but the reality is he lost to Ian Gary, but no one cares because he came back out and knocks out Jeff Neal, knocks out Leon Edwards, he's got the hype back around him again. And no one's really, because that fight with Ian Gary was completely forgettable. It wasn't a great fight. It was all right. It was just like nothing like crazy happened. Ian Gary is running into the problem where he talks great, says a lot of things, but he's not putting on the kind of performances to separate himself from a guy like Michael Morales, in my opinion. Yeah. And then the

other guy that you haven't mentioned yet is Shafcott. Yeah, I mean, I'm not mentioning Shobcote only because I think he, because the injury and the time off, I feel like he's going to have to go win one. Not because he doesn't deserve it. Just because it's been so long. It's kind of hard to like you know I think it's hard to throw him back in there after what happened being out for a year and a half let him get a win he gets one win put him right in the title shot I got no problem with that but like yeah it's just that you know I just think about the fact that like you know he beat Ian Gary you know and and then Ian Gary's going to get a title shot before him right potentially and I mean I think you know any of these guys getting title shot is very much

justified. I mean, you know, I don't think anybody other than Michael Morales is on a very long winning streak, right? They all have lost fights in recent years. Usman, again, I'm going to make the case for Usman again. I mean, he's a legend, arguably the greatest well-to-weight of all time. I know GSP's probably still ahead of them, you know, and I'm going to give it to GSP too, but I think there's an argument to be made. Someone knowledgeable could come in and argue for Usband to be one of the greatest, right? And the fact that he has that, you know, I'm always about giving those guys their shots, right? Like he earned it a long time ago, right?

And now, you know, the fact that he's coming off a big win. And as we know, like his two losses, right, with what was the names, Hamzaa and Leon. Leon, yeah. You know, okay, like Leon had his number. That's all there is to it, right? But Hamza, you know, I mean, we know what happened there, right? And he went up on 10 days notice as a close fight, you know, comes back, beats Joaquin Buckley, who was a surging, you know, fucking savage, right? I'm all about giving to Usman and let these guys, let's, you know, let's get some of these guys maybe another fight and let's see how things play out. there maybe have them fight each other a little bit right i mean i mean i would absolutely love to see protest ian um michael morales uh at least those three like fighting each other you know like try to think of like who else you know shavcott throw shavkot in there too right and then just

between those four you got two contenders coming straight out of that yeah i think like just speaking specifically about i and gary the problem he has is that like he he kind of has a Again, it has a little bit of the Lorone Murphy thing where I, like, you remember what I said about Lorone Murphy when he beat Josh Emmett? I was like, the problem with Lorone Murphy is he's on like this undefeated streak, you know, seven and oh, eight, no, whatever number it is in the UFC. He fights in the very next day I've forgotten about to fight. Sure.

It just, nothing stands out. Now he went out there and when he beat knocked out Aaron Pico, I said, you did it. You did it. Now, granted, that's Aaron Pico is the kind of like go-big or go-home kind of guy, but you did it. You delivered that knockout, like good on you. That's what you needed. You needed something to stand out.

and he did it. Ian Gary stands out because of his talk. He's a very talented guy. You've talked about on the show before. You've got a future champion written all over, but I 100% agree. But the problem is, is like, I'm thinking of the fight last night with Bilau,

and the biggest memory I have is there was an eye poke, there was another weird, like, glove in the eye kind of weird thing. And then after the fight, he got into a little backstage altercation with Hamza, and Hamzao shoved him, and, like, they got into that. I remember that more than the fight. Yeah. That's a problem. That's a problem.

And it wasn't because of Belal either, right? Yeah, he's winning. Like when Balal is the one pushing the action, you know, like, yeah, you're not, you're not doing anything exciting. And that, like, Carlos Prattis since losing to him, he went out there and had an incredible knockout over Jeff Neal, an incredible knockout over Leon Edwards. I don't even know that the Losty and Gary matters that much right now because of what he did out. after that. The problem that Ian Gary has is he's like, I almost beat Shabkat. Well, you didn't. And I beat, I beat protest by decision and I beat Bilal by decision. Neither fight was a highlight reel. Neither fight was all that exciting. Neither fight was like, man, you just pieced him up and, you know, you just decimated him and he just wouldn't go away. Like, some guys just won't get finished. I understand that. But like, that's not the case in either of those fights. Like, I don't remember, I don't remember a standout moment for that Carlos protest fight. I really don't. I'm not trying to insult. the guy. I'm just saying, like, I don't remember a great moment from that fight.

And that's what's going to hurt Ian Gary right now because you got Shavkat, who has a win over him, you got Carlos who's going on there knocking people out, and you got this young, undefeated monster of Michael Morales, who looks unbeatable and just walk through Sean Brady, who was on a great run. But again, this is where

you give Usman the shot first and let these guys fight it out. Right? I think you can make arguments are all the different directions for these guys you know um because how e and gary wins i don't think should be a determining factor of whether he gets a shot or not it's like did you win or did you not win should be the determining factor the fact that it's you know not big finishes or you know not wars or whatever like that should not be a determining factor in my opinion

but if you want to um but but you know if you want to say okay well we're not going to give you a title shot because you're not out there finishing guys and all right they haven't fight another one of these up-and-comers you know Morales or or shop cut well he fought already right so it's it's Morales right yeah it should be Marales and Ian Gary Shavcott and protest give Usman the shot and let let's fucking sort this division out and see who the savages of the savages I actually really like that matchmaking you said that like I think that does like shopcott and part protest

would be really interesting with the clash of styles of Morales Morales looks like a monster man Ian Gary might fight him and Morales just absolutely obliterates him there's a world where that happens because Morales looks so good he looks so dangerous but so to protest and Ian Gary went out there

and picked him apart and beat him it wasn't exciting but he did it so yeah I mean I think that's I like I kind of like weird heads out in that one I kind of like that matchmaking yeah and look I'll say it again like Usman, he hasn't done anything as significant in the division as of late as those guys. But he is one of the most significant athletes in that division's history. Let him get a shot for getting a win.

And he's looked great in his last fights, right? I mean, he was beating Leon Edwards. He almost beat Hamzaa. He beat Yolkin Buckley. Like, this is not a, you know, I don't think this is something. This is not a stretch to be like, you give Usma on the shot. And it was the same member when Adasanya lost to Pereira. And I was like, dude, absolutely give him an immediate rematch.

Like, he's a fucking legend. Like, he's one of the greatest ever. And I'm a big fan of that, you know, when you earn a certain amount of tenure and a certain amount of respect and legendary status, like, yeah, you should get favored a little bit here and there. You know, you should reap the rewards of some of that work that you put in. And it's not, I know I said this last week, I don't repeat myself, but it's not like Usman is coming off the Hamzot loss trying to get a title shot.

Like he just being a top-five guy. Like that was, I think that was the biggest argument. We're like, why people were like, we don't want to see John Jones fight Stepe. Stevie has been fought in three years and he lost in Gondda. Like, I understand Stevie's a legend, argue maybe the greatest heavyweight of all time, but it's kind of a harder pill to swallow when it's like, last time we saw him, he was getting absolutely obliterated by Inganu. I don't know.

And then, you know, obviously, you know, that. but this isn't the case. Like Usman just beat a top five guy, a ridiculously good guy in Walking Buckley, and then you add on the legacy stuff. Like that's where it's a little harder to like push against Usman. It's not like he didn't just beat a top five guy. I think that that's maybe you might have said even better than me.

It's like he put he did the work to get it back, right? Like he beat Joaquin Buckley. He did some work to get it back. He shouldn't have to go on a fucking run to get that title shot back. Yeah. He shouldn't have to. Like he's earned. his keep already and he's i mean and the fact is he should only be in big fights for the rest of his

life anyway um taking a yokeem buckley fight i mean you got to respect that it'd be he probably could have got i mean i don't know who's really out there but you know like a colby covington type or something i know he's fought him a couple times right but you know something like that's just like just a big fight uh to sell that's not really meaningful in the division or anything but he took an up-and-coming, surging, athletic, young, strong guy and beat him. Like, that's more than enough, in my opinion.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I know we're in agreement on that. I think that I love the matchmaking, too. You got me excited now. Shabat, protest, great fight. Ian Gary, Michael Morales, great fight. Shorts everything out really quick, doesn't it?

It does. And then it's harder. Like, if Gary goes out there and styles on Michael Morales and hands him his first loss, it's going to be hard to deny him. Or if Michael Morales goes out there and knocks Ian's dick in the dirt it's going to be hard to deny him so and i say and i say put those two fights on the same card whoever comes out healthiest and able to fight you know the whoever because

look those are some vicious fights right yeah like you know like those are fights where people are going to be walk out bruised and hurt one or the other is probably going to walk out with a cleaner victory or less injuries or be able to fight soon whatever right and if they don't then look flip a coin and pick your guy. And now, Islam has two fights already booked back to back. Yeah, I like it. I like it. Support for this show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough.

So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odu. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part, O-DU replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you?

Try O-D-U for free at O-D-O-D-O-O-O-O-com. Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two, ghosts in the machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cadulian and the rest of the Phoenix Colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprise his role as Roscoe Cadulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster, The Downloaded. It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leads to you.

you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded two ghosts in the machine. Available now, only from Audible. Before we get out of here, Matt, we recorded last week, and then right after we recorded the news that Jake Paul is fighting. He is no longer fighting Gervante Tank Davis, though. He is now fighting Anthony. Joshua in a heavyweight professional boxing bout

December 19th in Miami. I don't know if you saw the face off or photos of the face off, but Joshua looks every bit of a 6-foot-6 heavyweight standing next to Jake Paul. I don't want to, I want to talk about that fight in a second man, but I want to throw it because they brought this up at the press conference, and I know we kind of briefly talked about this when the rumors were circling about the whole tank Davis thing.

Did Inganu blow this by not taking that fight? because it's like, dude, like Inganu could have had the Jake Paul fight, and he's like, I'm above that. He was like, I don't, I don't, why would you even think I would consider that? And I'm like, really? Like, that seems like an odd reaction. Now, Anthony Joshua, a guy who absolutely demolished Francis Inganu is taking on Jake Paul. I found, listen, I like Francis. I think he's, I think what he's done in his post-JOC career in terms of making money was the right move.

He made a boatload of money to fight Tyson Fury. He made a boatload of money to fight Anthony Joshua, and he probably made a boatload of money to fight Heen and a fight that he was going to win. I'm not going to fault him for that. He's 39, whatever, he's at the tail end of his crew. I'm fine with all that. But him being like, you can't be serious with offering me Jake Paul

and then Anthony Joshua against the fight. Like, it does not look good for Ingana. He's like, oh, why would you even think that I would take that fight? You know, I don't agree that it doesn't look good for him because, look, it doesn't, I mean, financially yeah maybe it does something for him other than that it doesn't do anything for him so i don't think he's wrong and feeling that way he might be very comfortable with the money that he has right i'm sure he's got more than enough money for a couple generations of his family right i don't think

there's anything wrong with what he said i think he is above it i think anthony joshua is above it anthony joshua i don't want to say sold out maybe he bought in right but but But, you know, he's kind of, like, he's doing this, like, solely for money. If this is not somehow rigged, Anthony Joshua murders Jake Paul. And the only person to respect in this whole thing is Jake Paul. Like, he's taking on a real boxer, which we've been saying for a long time. And it's still going to surprise me all to hell if they actually make this walk. Because, you know, when it first happened or when I first seen the news of it,

was like this is not going to happen like this is PR this is bullshit and I still like in the back of my head I'm like no this isn't going to happen right like somebody's going to pull out somebody's going to hurt somebody's going to you know the card's going to fall up but something's going to happen but you know but if it happens like I mean you got to respect Jake Paul for having the balls to do that like Anthony Joshua is no joke but on anti-Joshua side and same on Ngano's side. Yeah, they are above that. Neither one of these guys needs to be fighting them.

Anthony Joshua is doing it for money. And Gano said, I'm not going to do this for money. And he doesn't, if he's happy financially, good for him. Yeah, no, you're not wrong. I just, I just think about, like, it's just funny how it played out that, like, Joshua guys are fighting Ngano passed. I'm like, I just, to me, if I'm in Ghana, I'm like, because Ngondo's won an 0-and-2 in boxing. I guess he's going to pursue the Deonti Wilder fight maybe.

I guess maybe that's like where he's at. I don't know, maybe. But to me, it's like, dude, like make the payday, go knock Jake Paul's ass out in the second or third round and move on to fight Deonti Wilder in 2026. But that's me. Like, I just didn't understand it based on like that. Because it's not like in God who's like this incredibly accomplished boxery.

He's 0-2. You know what I mean? It's not like he's gotten like, yes, he gave Tyson-Fier a very hard fight. I do still kind of stand by the fact that Tyson-Fuerre he did not take that seriously. You can kind of tell he didn't take that seriously. Anthony Joshua saw what happened and said, I'm not playing that game.

And when out there absolutely obliterated in Ghanu. So I don't know. But let's focus on the fight that actually did get made. Anthony Joshua is fighting. Is there any part, like, when this fight got announced, and I know we talked about it before, because Jake's like, I'm going to fight Anthony Joshua. We're both kind of like, yeah, right, you're going to fight Anthony Joshua.

Assuming it happens, this all goes through and it happens. And yes, there's going to be the conspiracy theorists who are going to say this is rigged. It's like if Jake Paul lasts more than a round and a half, it's rigged, there's something going on here. But is there any part of you, and I had this thought when the fight got made, because he took a lot of shit for booking the Gervante Davis fight. He did, and rightfully so. Like, that was a joke. That was an absolutely joke of a fight. I know you said, like, on the best night, Girante should knock him out.

You're not wrong, but like it was a 205-pound guy fighting 135-pounder. It was ridiculous. It was a ridiculous fight from the jump. Is there he probably feels like maybe Jake Paul got bullied into this? Because he's like, okay, I'm not fighting Jay, I'm not fighting Geronti Tank Davis, but now I'm going to fight Anthony Joshua? Like, that's not like going from Tank Davis to like, I mean. Devin Haney or something.

Yeah, or even like Davidez, who would absolutely destroy Jake Paul. But I'm saying, like some at least his own size, you know what I mean, like anything. Like I know they were talking about Terrence Crawford. Terence Crawford would piece up and dismantle Jake Paul. But he would all, at least Jake Paul would have like, a 40-pound weight advantage to kind of keep him in there. He's giving up every single advantage he has in this fight. Joshua's more experienced, hits like a truck, a legit heavyweight, bigger, stronger, fat.

I mean, every possible way that Jake Paul had an advantage and every other fight he's had is gone. Yeah, as I said, you got to respect him for doing this if he actually makes the walk, which is going to blow my mind if he does. but I mean, he is, him and Jervante traded places, right? Javante was the little guy, and now Jake is the little guy, you know, way outsized. And, man, again, you just got to respect Jake for taking this chance, man. And I don't know what else say about it because, I mean, unless this is somehow rigged, because that's the issue with this fight, the biggest problem with this fight is that, unless Jake gets knocked out

we'll all be including me will be conspiracy theorizing but there's no way we can't like we're all going to be like dude what the fuck like how much did you pay Joshua for that and um you know where's the fight taking place by the way

Miami down in Florida yeah so like it's you know it's a under an actual commission so you know it's going to be a little bit harder to rig anything but you know I don't know how these backdoor deals work and I'm like speechless bro it's like if you if you don't if Jake Paul does not get knocked out it's a conspiracy and I'm and I'm on board with the conspiracy so let let's play it straight let's just

say this is a real fight no no backdoor deals this is and you know it's coming on short notice you know Joshua from what I've heard it wasn't like deep into training but you saw him he still looked in good shape, wasn't like he got 30 pounds overweight, and he's walking in there with a gutter or anything. Like, he still looks good. And yes, he did lose to Daniel Dubois, but Daniel Dubois wouldn't probably knock out Jake Paul pretty brutally as well. If this is a straight-up fight, no weird backroom deals, no bullshit, do you give Jake

Paul any chance, beyond the fight, I understand, it's a fight. But beyond that, like, Hail Mary, anything could happen in a moment of a fight, do you give Jake Paul any real chance to beat Anthony Joshua? I mean, no, you don't even give him a hell Mary chance, you know, it's boxing. It's not MMA. If it was in May, fine, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a hell marry chance. In boxing, like, it's just so few and far between. And that's like,

you just don't see that stuff in boxing, especially against guys that are heavyweight champion level or a world champion level. I don't even give him a hell married chance. Like, the only chance that he has is of surviving. right like that's like the again if he survives all eight rounds like I'm going to be conspiracy theorizing

it's like only if he survives and that's I think you know he may be coming into this saying that's a notch in my cap that I survived eight rounds with the heavyweight champion I don't know I'm not sure what the thought process is behind this but again no matter how you how you twist it and

and say it like I have respect for Jake Paul for doing this fight unless it's rigged of course which is very possible but other than that I mean if they're going into a real fight I respect Jake Paul for taking the chance and having the

and get concussed but in reality like when you and I know that I know that like Francis doesn't have the same I guess technically the experience of Jake I know Jake has like 13 fights or whatever, but, you know, Ingano was a legit heavyweight. Like, Ingano was a big dude who throws like a truck, hits like a truck, and, you know, stood up to Anthony Joshua. Joshua dismantled him inside of a round.

And basically it was over, and then he got to the second round. He just absolutely, I mean, that was one of the scariest knockouts in recent history when he hit Ngondo. And Ngano folded over and, like, collapsed backwards. In any real world of, like, this is a real fight, there's no shady shit going on the side. Anthony Joshua should destroy. Jake Paul, this shouldn't go more than two or three rounds. It should only go as long as Anthony Joshua allows it to go. Exactly.

Because Jake Paul, you've said it, Jake Paul isn't terrible. He's not terrible. But he's not a world champion level boxer. That's what he's going. This is not, this is not him fighting, this is not him fighting Mike Tyson at 58 or fighting a Vanderholy fielder. I mean, he lost to Tommy Fury, you know. Yeah, I mean, yeah, he lost to Tommy Fury.

He's about to go in there with, at worst, one of the five best heavyweights in the world. I mean, if you want, I don't know what the numbers are right now. I mean, obviously Ussix won. I guess Dubois is two. And I know that Joseph Park or some other guys who are out there. But, like, I know he got knocked out by Daniel Dubois. It happens. And Daniel DuBois is a young guy.

He got a good win. Then he went out and got beat by Ucic as well. But he had two good fights. He got beat by Ucic. One of like Joshua got styled on by Uycic. Like he lost, but... Yeah, and look, if you're a guy who's a heavyweight contender, you know, you got 15, 20 fights.

and you're on your way up in the heavyweight division. This is a time that you would look at Joshua and be like, yeah, now is a good time to attack, right? Now is a good time to match up against this guy, right? He's probably on his way out. He's probably not got a ton of fights left. You know, he's been knocked out recently. Like, now's the time to go in and make your name off of him.

I just wonder if that's what Jake Paul is thinking. Like, okay, you know, he's still in the limelight. He's still active. He still competes. He's still, now is the time to go. take advantage and exploit him i just i don't think that's going to be the case i mean he's like that's that's the only thing that i can think that they're thinking right is to try to build my name off anthony joshua and um Joshua's not there yet he's not 58 years old

you know he's not like nice yeah like when when logan paul fought mayweather we knew what it was it was a big promotion whatever and and and in any in any in any in any in any sense of the word Mayweather would style on Logan Paul in a boxing match, but because Logan Paul was 50 pounds heavier, he was able to stick around in there and kind of muscle his way into getting through eight rounds or whatever

it was with Mayweather. But if they were the same size or, you know, and Mayweather was like 42 at the time, you know that Mayweather, like Logan had zero chance to actually beat Floyd Mayweather outside of the size factor. And that was kind of the same thing with Tank Davis. Like which Tank Davis

is going to show up? You know, I was like, I don't think I actually was not going to pick Tank to finish him but I was going to pick Tank to win just because I think Ty Liskly is still a better boxer This is this is this is like this is I mean this is This is like calling out and put in UFC terms This is like calling out I don't know like Sean O'Malley and Sean turns it down

You're like well fuck it I'll go fight Tom Aspinall Like what like this Here's my wild prediction My wild conspiracy theory prediction they're going to do all this hype for this fight and jake isn't going to pay him to lose but jake's going to pay him to pull out so they're getting ton of promotion on the way and jake said i hey i wanted to fight the fucking uh former heavyweight champion blah blah and then anthony pulls out for some reason and he gets all the PR in the world for it uh we'll see if that plays

plays out the way that I see it in my head, but... The only reason I'll disagree with you on that is because Netflix is involved. If they piss off Netflix, they may not get another one. Like, they already did with... You know, they might have a backup already ready. But, I mean, when the Tank Davis fell apart, like, they didn't just replace him, like, they could have...

I'm sure they're probably... Like, we heard rumors about Nate Diaz, like, somebody just stepping in. Yeah. And I'm sure somebody higher up at Netflix is like, no, we're not paying you a boatload of money to watch a match you already won against an overmatched him a guy like it's got to be a real fight and then he's like all right here's a real fight uh and like

i said i don't want to get into the conspiracy theory stuff because you just don't know and do i think there's a world it can happen sure it can happen anywhere we just saw what happened to uc but anthony the reason why i'm not playing that game is because of what happened to ingano fight because anthony joshua saw ingano knock down tyson fury and come around or two away from beating at that point the lineal heavyweight champion of the world like at that point Tyson furry was the man and Inganu came really close to beating him and and Joshua was like I'm not doing that I'm not playing that shit I'm going and he went out there and absolutely demolished him unless there is I just I can't imagine anywhere in Anthony Joshua's mindset is he

thinking I'm going to go out there and play and toy with Jake Paul and let him stick around for a couple. No, I think he's, I think the Tyson Fury in Ghanu fight taught Joshua a lesson. He went out there and obliterated in Ghanu. That's why I have less faith that there's like weird shit going on because like, I'm like you and thinking to like, why, what do you get out of this? But at the same time, it's like, in any sense of the word, if this is a legit fight, let's just play as a legit fight, Anthony Joshua should absolutely destroy Jake Paul. This should not even be competitive. Yeah, it doesn't have a chance if it's a real fight.

But that's where I can't help but go to conspiracy theories here. Like it's just, it's almost like it's just playing right in your face. Like they're conspiracy theorizing right in front of your face. And I just can't find a way to not buy into some conspiracy theory here. And I like to think of myself as not a big conspiracy. theory guy, but maybe I'm more of one than I thought I was, because I cannot help but think that there has to be some ulterior motive here. There has to be something more than Jake Paul actually wanting to go have a real fight with Anthony Joshua. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't

make sense that he thinks he could beat him. It doesn't make sense that he would want to take that beating and look like a fool on national television or Netflix, if that's national television, whatever it is, worldwide television. It doesn't add up in any way. And that's why I said, look, if there's no conspiracy theories going on here,

then fucking mad respect to Jake Paul. Like, we can all shut up and give him his respect now. He might get his ass kicked, but we can still show the respect to him. Send your respect and your respect cards to the local hospital in Miami where he will be hanging out after the fight

because because respect respect I agree respect and probably probably stupidity you know there's a difference between courage and stupidity too right so you know maybe maybe it's a little bit of both here I'm not sure but again I just I'm not sure what they're thinking and maybe hopefully I would I never watch interviews but I would like to see an interview here where they ask them like what do you think in here Jake like what do you what do you actually expect to I mean, I'm sure he'll probably say whatever thing to hype the fight or whatever, but I'd really like to know what's going on in his head. If there's no conspiracy theory here, what's actually going on, Jake's head?

How do you think this is possibly going to play out in your favor? Yeah, it doesn't like in any, once again, assuming there's no weird shit going on, he should not stand a chance. Yeah, and how are they even sanctioning this fight? Like, this is what drives me crazy, these athletic commissions, So I've seen so many fights not get sanctioned, you know, obviously like lower level regional show fights and stuff. And then they sanctioned something like it. It's like the former heavyweight champion, you know, going up against Jake Paul with a, what's the weight difference going to be?

Probably 50 pounds, 60 pounds. I mean, the weight difference, and I don't care what you call you paint it, the experience difference. Jake has beaten, he's beaten two. I guess Jake is what, 12 and 0, 13 and 0? 12 and 1 or 12 1 with the Tommy. Yeah, I mean, I guess. Okay. I mean, here's the thing, though, like, he beat those two random journeyman boxers who didn't

deserve, they should not have been, Andre August, or whatever the other guy was. They were just, you know, they were club boxers. They were not real challenges, and he knocked him out because that's what you're supposed to do. He fought Chavez, Jr., who is awful and way past his prime. He was 160 pounder. Yeah, and 160 pounder. And the other boxer he fought was Tommy Fury who beat him. And Tommy Fury is not really good either.

either of I'm being honest. He's not really a good boxing, but he beat Tyrone Woodley a couple of times. He beat Nate Diaz. He beat Anderson Silva. He beat 58-year-old Mike Tyson. Like, there's nothing. There's absolutely zero in Jake Paul's repertoire

to make me think that he's got a chance in this fight if it's real. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah. I say you've got to respect it, man, put himself out there like that, I guess. Maybe this is like the end game or something. Maybe he wants to lose this fight

and then just become a promoter. He's like, well, I got my asses up. absolutely my hand my ass handed to me but anthony joshua now i'm going to go fight you know maybe i'm going to go be a promoter or what i don't know maybe this is like it's in game maybe he's been working with james kraus and they're putting a million dollars on him to lose and and it's going to or something i just there's you i know we talking about like you you said there's no hell mary pass like there's no world in a real fight he should compete with anthony joshua much absolutely much less i'm not talking about winning i'm talking about competing

Just competing with Anthony Joshua. This should be a first or second round knockout, like, in all honesty. Yep, yep. Respect to him for going and taking it, I guess. So we'll see. But first we'll see if any of my conspiracy theories come true. And this fight does not happen. We'll see.

You might. I mean, I'm holding on the Netflix thing. Like, they don't want to piss off Netflix. Although, if this is like, hey, this is going to be my final fight. Maybe it is. I don't know, man. They're like, oh, well, we're going to do one more and then we're out of here. I don't know, man.

It's just, you know, if that's his game, look, I respect that too. He's like, hey, I made a bunch of money. I beat some good guys, decent guys, like Anderson Silver and whatever, you know, had some fun along the way. Let's go out with a bang. Let's go see if, you know, if I can go beat Anthony Joshua, then fuck yeah. You know, if I can't beat him, then, hey, I gave it. I shot for the fucking stars, man.

I think the only bang you're going to hear is Jake Paul's head bouncing off to canvas if there's a legitimate bang in this fight. Yeah, that right hand will probably create a big bang in his head, I guess. But yeah, when is that fight? December 19th, so basically like a month from now, a little less than a month.

Right around Christmas. I'll be, I wouldn't get to watch that. My son has a wrestling match that day. It's a nighttime thing, though. See, you'll watch it. It's like, it's not going to play like 11 o'clock at night. Well, here's the thing with these wrestling tournaments. So you got to get up at 6 a.m.

You got to be there, you know, 7, 8 a.m. You're there until 5, 6 p.m. You ain't staying up late that night. I mean, it's intense, too. Wrestling's fucking intense, man. Like, you know, and the team he's on, you know, I'm helping coach the high school wrestling team, right? Which is a blast, by the way.

Some of these kids, I mean, they're state placers. They're, you know, some state qualifiers. A lot of district guys is some, it's a killer. team like so i will be there coaching the whole tournament because that's one of the things with these wrestling tournaments so you sometimes you know your son loses and you're like man that sucks he lost but at least we get to fucking go home because we've been here for five hours already but when you're coaching you're there all fucking day well you know when you got kids that are winning the tournaments and getting to the finals uh you're there till the fucking in and then you got to stick around for

the uh the the ceremony the medal ceremony and then yeah usually you know they'll go out afterward or something it is a long day let me tell you well let me think about this way matt if you go to that long day you get home you crash how you go to sleep you wake up the next morning if this fight's real you can watch jake paul and and anthony josh in about six minutes i'm guessing maybe maybe four minutes skip the walkouts and and all the hype and everything and i'll just watch the 30 seconds of anthie joshua wrecking jay paul now here's the real question your coach in high school wrestling have you brought in

Coleman as a guest coach yet so I just seen Coleman their day and I told him I was coaching he said I'll be there don't worry I'll stop by and I'll get them all fired up I didn't invite him but Coleman invited himself

that means he will be there I'm sure and the kids are going to be like what the hell am I getting myself into but it'll be a black man colman's the best he'll get the kids fired up and it'll probably be the hardest day of their lives that's hilarious you'll bring the hammer he'll bring the hammer house body bag with him and just bring it out for the kids you know oh yeah all yeah well they'll be following the nine ancestral tenants by time they're out good stuff all right uh we're gonna get out so real quick we get out

matt you do are you a big thanksgiving guy do a lot for thanksgiving you know my opinion on thanksgiving turkey's the worst fucking meat on this planet not on the planet but it's It's one of the worst meats that there is. So I'm not going to do no fucking turkey. My family's all fucked up from left to right. So, you know, we'll get together. And, you know, I bought a shirt a couple years ago. I said, I'm ready to eat turkey and talk politics.

I'll be wearing that this year and, you know, just fucking ruin everybody's Thanksgiving. And they'll ruin mine, I'm sure. But, yeah, you know, it kind of is what it is. but it's cool to get the kids together, you know, and, and they can have some fun. Other than that, like, I just want a fucking pizza or a steak or something. Don't give me your fucking dry-ass turkey and your stupid fucking cranberries and whatever, whatever other kind of bullshit mashed potatoes. I fucking eat mashed potatoes at home. It tastes fine any day.

Like, why you, this isn't a feast? Get the fuck out of here, green beans. Yeah, I don't ever want to, I don't ever want a green bean casserole. That's disgusting to me. I have no desire to bring. Yeah, what, but that's not a feast.

That's like a, that's a fucking, you know, it's like what my mom cooks when I go to her house. It's a school, it's a school lunch. That sounds like we used to have a school lunch. That's what I was thinking of it.

Yeah, like where my mom will cook, you know, on a fucking Wednesday, you know, out of the can because she, you know, she doesn't want to actually cook anything.

I cook for you for 20 years. I don't want to fucking cook you more food. Yeah. The best part about Thanksgiving is, to me is just like it used to be just having like time off but no one even takes time off anymore like everything's open like nothing closes anymore like it's just like another day now basically so yeah yeah exactly so um not overly excited but you know we'll do what we got to do well we'll be back next week we'll be breaking down the final UFC pay-per-view of the year marabd wallis philly peteriont too

and of course alessandre pantosia joshua vans we'll talk about that next week and a gear up for that as we get closer, closer to the end of the UFC on ESPN and one of the final two UFC, ESP, one of the final two UFC cards of the year, so stay tuned for that. Matt, if people want to check you out what you got going on, where can they go? What can they do? Adam, I am the immortal Instagram and Twitter, the immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. Check out the creatine, Vitifuel, V-I-T-A, P-H-U-E-L. Actually, the other thing, you know, is I should probably start hyping up is I'm working on a book

right now, actually. So interviewing with a writer and we're working on making a book about my life. So it's pretty exciting. A little offended. You didn't ask me, but that's all right. I won't hold it against you. Well, you didn't ask me, Movogger? They came and asked me.

I've actually never written a book. That would be an interesting project. We've never written a book before. Yeah, well, you're late to the party, buddy. Damn. Now I hurt. It stinks. Well, that's all right. I'll read it and critique it and tell him what he did wrong in the book. So that's all right. there. Well, we can always

do more books, you know. That's true. That's true. Plenty of plenty of room for that. Well, I look forward to that. Obviously, I always want to say a big thank you to everyone in the show. Make sure you check us out on all your favorite podcast, platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and of course, over on the best website. In the World MMA Fighting.com. Obviously, no big fights this

weekend. We do have a R.A.F. Chandler and Chadmendezer wrestling, so that's kind of cool. And so kind of a bit of an off weekend. No fights. Enjoy the holiday. And then we'll be back next week. We'll talk about DeWallis, really, on too and everything else going on at UFC 323 for Matt

Brown. I am Damon Martin. I want to say a big thank you to everyone that tunes in the show. We will see you guys next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Ryder. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Nothing quite makes a holiday gathering pop like turning on the music. And if you're looking to set the mood, you should check out Sonos.

With Sonos, movie nights feel bigger and more cinematic. While holiday parties come to life with music that flows from room to room, it's the kind of sound that makes a house feel warm and connected during the season. Want studio quality sound at home? Explore Sonos speakers, soundbars, and more at Sonos.com and discover how easy it is to build your own whole home audio system.