MMA Fighting - Fighter vs Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Jon Jones Retirement, Where Does Tom Aspinall Go From Here Plus UFC 317 Picks and Predictions

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin reaction to the news that Jon Jones retired from the sport and what that does to Tom Aspinall now that he’s the undisputed heavyweight champion but seemingly has nobody to fight. Plus how will Jones be remembered? We also break down the biggest fights at UFC 317 including Ilia Topuria vs. Charles Oliveira and the future of the UFC potentially moving to Netflix plus much more. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Back to the fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, normally we'd be kicking off the show talking about this massive pay-per-view we have coming up in a couple of days. UFC 317 where Iliate Teporia moves to lightweight to fight Charles Oliver. But then just this little news story broke over the weekend. John Jones, the greatest of all time, has decided to retire from the sport.

And Tom Aspinall is now officially the undisputed champion. I don't know how much you paid attention to all the aftermath of Dana talking about it and John Stavis. So we all were kind of, it was such a random, like just a random question at a freaking post-fight press conference in Azerbaijan of all places. And we learn

about this. But Matt, what was your initial reaction to learning all this news that John Jones is done? And then Tom Aspinall is the undisputed champ. Yeah. Well, first, I mean, yeah, how it was done was very odd, right? Like that was about the oddest

retirement that I've ever seen. Yes, it's going to be interesting to see how this kind of plays out, you know, because at the same time we had the news with the car accident again, right, where he led the scene of another car accident where a woman was injured. And man, what a tragic story, you know, but, man, it's hard to say, right? Because, you know, I bet I probably had the same first reaction as everybody else. oh he does not want to fight tom aspinall and then i go back and look and i'm like this fucking john jones we're talking about is he really not want to fight tom aspinall

and no one really knows except for john right we like no one knows we do not know like there's a lot of people assuming that and there's people saying that he's ducking tom regardless of whether he's ducking him or not though again he's the only person that truly knows that like what a fucked up way of just doing things all together you know putting this on hold for so long and you know fighting you know steep A's his last fight and you know it was sort of a you know it was meant to be like a legacy fight that you know I don't know if it really was or not it's just what a mess the end of his career has been you know he hasn't really fought someone challenging for how long.

And, well, obviously, we're not going to forget all the things he did when he was young, though. And it's just another, we see it so many times in combat sports and boxing and in MMA, you know, just what could have been, man. Like, this guy could have just been a star of the world and just been everything that everybody wanted to look up to. And here we are with him retiring. and, you know, with another criminal charge

and getting an announcement in Azerbaijan on a medial card that half the people didn't even know happened. And yeah, what a mess, huh? So am I... It's just so... It's just so John Jones style, right? Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

You're right. You know, it's funny, like, because we talked about this on the podcast several times, and I said, and we agreed, Like neither one of us believed in our heart or hearts that John Jones was ducking Tom Aspinall. We said like, come on now. Like it's John Jones.

Right. But the problem is, and this is what John Jones did by this, is it's not whether or not he actually was ducking Tom Aspinol. It's the narrative now because if he was going to retire and he just would have fought Steve A, as bad as that fight was and as much as it really didn't matter, as we found out the night of the fight, if he would have retired to cage that night and I said,

I just wanted this fight with Stepe. I wanted to fight the greatest heavyweight of all time. I wanted to, you know, have one title defense, and I'm walking away. We would all been like, cool, man, have a great career. You know, go on, do your thing. We get it. You know, you're done. But to wait seven months and Dana to come out.

And to be clear, Dana said, I don't believe John's ducking him. He did say that very honestly. But he also said, the fight was done. It was going to be November. Madison Square Garden, just like we predicted, just like I predicted for months. And he's like, it was done. And then John just kind of like suddenly changed his mind and said, I want to retire. It's not whether or not he's actually ducking Tom Aspinall.

It looks like he's ducking Tom Aspinall because of the narrative. Because of how it is all played out. Do I truly believe in my heart of hearts John Jones is scared of Tom Aspenol? Absolutely. I don't think John Jones is scared to anybody. But you waited seven months and Dana said the fight was done. And then you just suddenly change your mind and say, I'm retiring. it just doesn't look good.

It doesn't matter whether that was your intention or not. And do I truly believe he's afraid? No. But that's the way it looks. I don't care how you're painting it. That's how it looks. Yeah, and I can totally understand where people are saying that. I think the problem, and my guess, right, not my any facts here, but my guess is, you know,

John Jones did have every intention of doing that. But he's set for life, right? He's good. His family's good financially. right he doesn't necessarily need it for the finances and you know he he's not like uh you know we always hear i said the kind of same thing about connor right i was like dude he's got too much money he's probably not going to fight again you know and then people would say like well what about lebron or floyd may or it's very different like an m a fight is very different um and yeah

i just think that's where john's at i think he just got comfortable and he probably just couldn't get up for this fight like i think he's being truthful with that i mean he said it many times like i'm not really motivated to fight Tom Aspinall. I don't know how he was motivated to fight Cyril gone either necessarily, right? But regardless, like, I think he's just not up for it. I think it's as simple as that. And he's good in life.

And there's, like, literally the only argument that he's not the greatest of all time is the steroid accusations or not even accusations, like facts, I guess, right? The steroids. but like 99% of people are going to say he's the greatest of all time like you won bro like you you know like you made money you're the greatest of all time like you're the baddest dude on the planet like how motivated are you going to be so I could totally get that

you know unfortunately it is sort of the issue with dealing with the you know the UFC right like if he was boxing you know he could be looking at like, what, 50, 60, 70 million bucks to go fight Tom Aspen all right on, you know, uh, uh, interim title guy versus, uh, the champion, you know, one of the greatest fights ever, heavyweight. Like, you know, you're looking at a massive, massive payday. I think he was negotiating to try to get like 30 mil, you know, if I, if my numbers are right.

I'm not a hundred percent on that, but. This is one of the issues that, you know, is going to happen in the UFC all the time. Yeah. It's funny because, and I'm running up the timing of it all, because I remember, and I know we've talked about this on the show before, when George St. Pierre came back and fought Michael Bisping, he got accused by a lot of people of kind of cherry-picking his comeback, right? Like, Bisping, to him was an easier target. You know, you didn't have to go against Y'all Romero. He didn't have to go against Robert Whitaker. He gets Michael Bisping.

And they're like, you're kind of cherry-picking your chance is to become a double champ. He did. He beats him, you know, wins the fight, chokes him out. And then a month later, GSP says, like, I died meticulitis, I'm giving up the belt, and I'm done. I'm not going to defend it. Now, at the time, Robert Whitaker had gone out and beating Yoh Romero, and he was the interim champ. Now, I don't remember, maybe I'm wrong, because this is, you know, several years ago, but I don't remember anyone saying GSP was ducking Robert Whitaker, and I think the narrative was,

is he waited a month. He's like, I can't fight, I'm sick. Here's the belt. Go do your thing. Robert became the champion, and he was just the guy. I don't remember anyone saying George St. Pierre was scared of Robert Whitaker. But that's the problem with this situation because John was, like, John was so dismissive of Tom Aspinall. He doesn't interest me.

Why should I fight this guy? You know, and then you wait seven months. And then you just decide out of the blue to retire. I think that's the difference. I think that's the biggest difference because I don't remember anyone saying George St. Pierre was ducking, but they're saying he was ducking because it took so. We had months to build this up in our heads and say, Dana, guarantees this is going to happen, 100% it's going to happen. Promise you, it's going to happen.

I heard dates. I heard November. I heard MSG. I was like telling people publicly. Like, I think it's going to happen to MSG. I was not wrong because that's exactly what they were doing. But, lo and behold, just out of the blue. And I'm not faulting John for just saying, you know what?

I just, I'm not up for it. What you said, you're probably right. He's probably like, you know what? I just, it's just not doing it for me. But it doesn't matter what, what is John. saying it's what people are thinking. What people are thinking is you waited seven months. You're basically making Tom wait on the wait for you.

And then you just decide out of the blue to retire. If he had retired in December, a month later, there would be a little bit of rumblings that you're retiring to avoid Tom Aspinall because you fought. Because the Steve A fight didn't help his calls much because he could have fought Tom Aspin on last November. That's neither here nor there. But we would have moved on.

Tom probably would have fought Cyril Gan by now or would have fought Almeida. And we all moved on by now. it's been this seven months of stagnation that's killing him it's been this this waiting game well here's what i think john is a smart guy and one of the first things you said um through your uh little speech there was i don't remember what the narrative was john's a smart guy he knows in a year two years no one's going to remember what this narrative was it's going to all be forgotten and it's going to be the division's going to move on the UFC's going to move on

and we're going to forget that there was a seven months stagnant period and John Jones is still going to be the greatest ever. So on his end he's like fuck you guys like say whatever you want. It's all going to be forgotten. I'm the greatest

I can do whatever the hell I want and if I was in his shoes I'd probably say the same damn thing. So let me ask you this Matt because we know the old joke about MMA retirements. My buddy, Sean Cheyen from severe MMA always says, happy retirement, see you when you fight again, because that's like the joke.

Do you actually, because when some guys retire, I get like when George St. Pierre retire, when Kibb retired, I was like, I think they're really done. Like they already made a boatload of money. They really have no reason to come back. Other guys, I'm kind of like, yeah, I think financially you're probably getting drawn back. Here's the thing with John on that, though. I don't see him coming back.

Now, I had considered a few times, like, calling out that he was never going to fight again like I did Connor in the last, you know, five, six months or whatever, but never had the balls to come out and say, right? But I think it's a little bit different with John, though, because if he comes back, he has to fight Aspinall, right? There's no other fight, period. Now, one of two things happens. Aspinall goes out and, you know, becomes dominant, right? And now John's out for however many years while Tom's dominating. And then it's a tough comeback for John, right? Now he's got to come back and fight a guy who's been active and is fighting and is really good and all this.

Or Tom goes out and loses. And then John has to fight the next toughest guy, right? Whoever is able to beat him. Now it's potential there's like a, you know, I don't know, like a Cyril gone or something. that beats Tom Aspinall, right? And then John could come back and be like, yeah, I'm a champion again, whatever. Fuck you guys. Make my money.

That's potential. But if what we kind of anticipate happening happens, which would be Tom going on to be a dominant UFC champion, John's only chance of coming back is fighting Tom Aspinall. He's not like a Connor McGregor, right? Like John's not a love figure in the sport. he's not a which i mean maybe connor's not either but he's an entertainer right like john is loved in the sense of being loved for his skills and his dominance if he doesn't come back and dominate like that's that's it right that's the only that's the only reason people want to see him come back is to do

like he couldn't i guess what i'm getting at it's like people will watch connor go fight jake paul connor can go fight whoever right and it's going to be exciting we want to watch it for John, like, we only want to see him fight the baddest motherfucker, period. That's, like, no other fight is going to interest any of us. Yeah, I know you're absolutely right. You're 100% right. And I said this to a couple of people I know, and I want to kind of save the conversation for our podcast.

But the reality is, the biggest loser in this whole situation, for all the flack that John Jones is getting right now, as you said, you're absolutely, you're 1,000% right. Two years from now, we'll have moved on. John Jones, the greatest of all time. Let's just talk about Grady was. You know what I mean? Like I bring up to George. No one even talks about that with George St. Pierre.

No one even mentions the Robert Whitaker thing. No one even cares about that. So you're absolutely right about that. But the biggest loser here is Tom Aspinall. Because no offense to Cyril Gahn and Jelton Almeida, who are the two guys kind of like at the top of the division. I mean, this is rough. Like this is a rough spot for Tom.

because in Ghanu's gone, he ain't coming back, so let's just get that out of our heads right now. That ain't happening. He's got Cyril Ghan who John Jones ran through in two minutes, and he's got Jelton Omeida, who's a good fighter, but I mean, you know, what has he done to really prove that he's like, and, you know, his one fight against the top guy he got knocked out by Curtis Plades. Like, Tom, now, Dominance, you know,

we talk about Demetri's Johnson and 11 title defenses, and, like, there were the Chris Carrioso's the world in there where he's just kind of like we're ready, you know, guys that probably weren't deserving to be in there with Demetri Johnson. But that's what I actually, when I always taught, and I love DJ, by the way. I'm not, I'm not knocking DJ. But my biggest, like, when people are like, who's the greatest of all time? And I always say, you know, like, John, George could be DJ.

If that's my list. I don't know that's my list. I'm just saying it. Where's Anderson that on there, bro? Anderson, yeah, whatever. But I always put DJ lower because he's, like, 11 title defense. I was talent-wise DJ, the two most talented guys and George, the three most talented guys ever. But I said DJ's

problem was, is he just didn't have the level of competition. You know, there's just, I like Ray Borg, but like the Ray Borgs, the Chris Kariasa's like, come on now, you can't compare that to rampage and Shogun and Machita and like the guys of John or the guys that George has on his resume.

That's the problem Tom Aspinall's going to run into. Because Curtis Blaze is a good win. It is a good win. That's a good win. But are people going to really, if he goes out there and lays waste to Cyril Ghan. Well, we just saw John Jones do that two years ago. If he goes out there and lays ways to Jalton

Al-Made, what is that real? All Tom can do now is just rack up title defenses and try to get people to forget that he's fighting kind of nobody. Because he doesn't have a Kane Velasquez. He doesn't have a Junior DeSanto. He doesn't have a Francis In Gondon. He doesn't have a steep in his prime. Like he's got

it's Tom Asperall and the gap between Tom and the rest of the division is pretty freaking wide. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's almost like John has of something against Tom Aspinall. Like he just wanted to completely ruin his life in every way possible. And he's doing a great job of it.

And, yeah, it puts Tom in a tough spot. Like you say, he's definitely the biggest loser of this whole thing. And, yeah, it makes it difficult now for him to, like, where does he go from here? Like you said, I mean, is he fights surreal gone? The guy that John beat in two minutes or, you know, Jolten Almeida? I mean, Almeida lost, the last fighter of the fight before, right? Yeah, he's won his last two, and he lost to Curtis before that. So he's on a two-fighter, yeah.

Yeah, and it's like, yeah, like you said, there's no, the heavyweight division is not like what it was, you know? And you can't, and you especially can't compare it to like when John came into the UFC, what the light heavyweight division was at that time. And, you know, and John ruined the freaking light heavyweight division, right? because he knocked out all the legendary guys that we thought would give him a chance like Shogun and Rampage and Rishad Evans

and then Daniel Cormier. And then, you know, at the tail end of his light heavyweight run, I mean, it's, you know, Santos who he arguably lost to, Reyes, who he arguably lost to. You know, like it just went kind of uninteresting later on. But Thomas kind of starting right there, right, with it being uninteresting. And like,

the heavyweight division is supposed to be the division that all the fans want to go watch. And, you know, it's not, like, I don't know how interested we would be in watching Tom fight these guys, you know? I mean, you just said it.

Cyril Gung got wiped out by John Jones in two minutes, and Jelton Omeda got knocked out by Curtis Blades, a guy that Tom Aspinall just knocked out in a minute flat last year. Those were his two top contenders. Like, who else is even, like it like what's the rankings there i mean you know i was big on sergey pavlovich so you know i thought that he was going to do something special and then he ended up losing to uh curtis also right

well he lost to tom he got knocked out by tom in the interim title fight oh yeah tom yeah that's right yeah yeah he lost to curtis too though right uh no he knocked out curtis he knocked out Curtis and then he got knocked out by Tom. But he also lost to, he lost to Volkov in his next fight too. So he lost Alexander Volkov. But Volkov got tapped out by Tom in the first round. Like they've already fought and it wasn't even a fight. Like, so like the options are just, it's bad.

Like, let's just be honest. It's bad right now. Like there's just nobody there for him to fight unless like, and everyone's like, what about Alex Pereira? Well, I understand maybe that, maybe that would have been an option had Alex beaten Ancolaia. but now he's coming up to Lost Ancalayev. Like, that's not even the hype isn't even there.

He can't even get that back. So, like, his choices are Cyril gone and Jelton Almeida and how excited in all, in all honesty, how excited would you be for either one of those? You're not. Neither am I. Yeah, and then when you start going down the list, I mean, it starts going into names that, you know,

most people have even heard of, like, like Waldo Cortez. Yeah. You know, like, I don't, I've never even seen him fight. I know who he is, and I, you know, I know the face, but Sergey Spivak, I mean, you know, and then you're already at number nine there, you know, Marston Tibera is eight, Derek Lewis is number 10. Like, no one was, like, Derek Lewis would at least be like an entertaining fight, you know, but now you're talking, going all the way down to number 10.

And Derek Lewis, I think. The UFC does. The UFC does that, right? This happened. Number 10, they got title shots before. They do, but Derek's also, like, close to 40, and I think he's like, two and three in his last five or something like that. Like his record is great.

Like, you know, so yeah. It's basically like the, like these women's divisions, right? Where you got one or two that, you know, maybe are worthy contenders. And then it just drops to like, why is this person, like, does this person have a chance? You know, like,

it's a tough division right now, man. And, you know, I'm not sure what the UFC is going to need to do to step that up, you know? Yeah, it's, it's unfortunate. Like I said, the worst who comes out of the worst is holding his top. Like he said, it's almost like John's like, you know what, I'm just going to totally,

I'm just going to totally fuck this guy over. I'm going to leave and he's got no one to fight. No one to fight, yeah. I mean, they're going to call Brock Lesnar back maybe? I mean, that's what I'm saying. Like, that's what's the biggest losers, Tom Asper. He's an disputed champion. Great. Who are you going to fight? Like, because if you beat John Jones and then you go

lay waste to Cyril Gaon and Jalton Alameda, it doesn't matter. You beat John Jones. Yeah. But you don't have John Jones now. So, like, all you can hope for is that you can just rack up a ridiculous amount of titles of defenses and hope that people forget that you did it against Cyril God and Shelton Omeda. And, you know, I would say there's kind of two sides to this, right? But, like, this is, again, where I've said before, like, fighters should not wait for specific fighters. You know, Chandler did it.

And now, I know it's a completely different situation. but you know Tom did it and both of them got fucked on it like just keep fighting take the risk keep fighting stay busy stay active you know maybe in the meantime like try to pick the right fights like that's a good time you know to try to pick the right fights that make the most sense um stylistically for you

but you know had Tom been fighting this whole time that would be the downside too because then maybe he went and he beat you know these guys that would be potential contenders but, you know, at least like, you know, he'd be in our, uh, fresher in our brains, right? Right now, the only reason that his name is so fresh in our brains is because of John Jones. It's like, at least he would have, you know, be said, look, well, he won like two in the last year or whatever. And, you know, and I think there would be a much stronger case if he was doing that. And then, and then John did this whole retirement.

I think there'd be a much stronger case of everybody. I say oh, he ducked Tom. Whereas right now, it's like, it's like, I don't, I don't think John really, I just think he just doesn't give him a shit. I mean, he's out parting and, and, you know, banging girls and wrecking cars and, you know, he's having, he's living his best life, right?

So, like, I don't think it has anything to do with him thinking that he, you know, he's going to have a hard time with Tom Aspenall, which I do think he would, as a matter of fact. But, but, like, I don't think. has anything to do with that. He's just a party animal and he's got like millions of dollars in a bank he's set for life. He's like, fuck yeah, I'm going to party. Like, why should I go fight? Yeah, no, you're 100% right. So let me, before we get to UFC 317, let me ask you this question

before we forget, move on. So let's just say, hypothetically, John's done, he's not coming back because that's the theory we got to play with right now. And you just mentioned it going into the weekend, right after we found out he retired, he has a misdemeanor charge for leaving the scene of the accident. Now his lawyer put out a statement today, saying they vehemently to me to deny the charges. He was never there. But anytime John gets accused of something, the tendency is to believe he did it because it's happened so many times.

And in 2015, I mean, he literally got stripped of his title and suspended because he left the scene of a hit-and-run accident. So when he has another one of those, I don't think the public perception is, oh, John definitely didn't do that. Yeah, yeah. When we talk about the fight, the fighting, John Jones, as I say this, all the time, and I'll say it again. Now, he's the greatest of all time. And I know the one asterisk is the steroid thing. Okay, just setting that aside. Fighting wise, greatest of all time.

But how will we really remember John Jones? Because we can't just look at the fighting, right? Like, you got to encapsulate everything because when you talk about John Jones, like we can joke, like he did Coke three days before he beat Daniel Cormeet. My God, wasn't a talented guy who did coke and then goes up and beat Daniel Cormi. That is impressive, as weird as that sounds. But we can't ignore the other stuff. Multiple arrests. domestic violence arrest, drunk driving arrest, the hit in the runner with a pregnant lady arrest, now this thing. And I don't, this is a misdemeanor charge. I don't think it's nearly, I think at the end of the day it's going to probably go away and become a whole lot of nothing, but the narrative.

How are we going to remember John Jones? Because he's not Michael Jordan or he's not LeBron James where he just played the game. And, you know, people may hate LeBron James, but LeBron James has never been arrested for domestic violence. Like he's never had that happen to him. Like he's not, he's not. So like, how are we going to remember John? Because you cannot encapsulate John's entire career and just say, man, he's the greatest ever. Because then you have to start thinking, well, what could this guy have done if he didn't fuck up so often?

Like if he didn't, if he didn't become his own worst enemy like nine times during his career, what else could he have been? Could he have had like 19 title defenses? Could he have been undefeated with a 40-0 record or whatever ridiculous number could be? how will we remember John Jones I mean we're going to remember Mr. Grace ever still right like all that shit yeah that's what the

I guess the nitpickers and the hardcore people that's what they're going to be talking about like look he fights in a cage for our entertainment and he did at the highest level that's ever been witnessed

on this planet I don't respect the other shit he did I'm thinking anyone does, right? Like no one's like, oh, that was cool, whatever, forget about it. But, like, do we really care? Like, there's people out there. There's a million people out there doing terrible shit out of time.

He did that terrible shit and continued to beat the best in the world's asses. So, you know, I'm not not justifying what he did or anything, but it's like, you know, I speak the name John Jones out of my mouth because of his fighting. like that's all I care to talk about with him you know they there's I don't care about I'm only talking about myself you know other people might have differing opinions but like I don't I'm not going to change what I remember about them based on that shit right like all I remember is what I seen on TV like that's all I care about um you like what what is that other shit is it's basically irrelevant um and again not saying it's

It's okay and, you know, I'm not like, it doesn't increase my fanboying of him, right? Whereas, say, like, a GSP, like, I think a lot of people are, like, increasingly more a fan of his, or became increasingly more a fan of his as they would get to know his personality better, right? And John's just the opposite, you know, like a lot of people become decreasingly a fan of his based off his personality and his outside things. But, I mean, he should, in my opinion, like he should be remembered for what he did in the cage, period, and the shit outside, you know,

is a completely separate irrelevant thing. If I was going to write a book on John Jones, it would probably be titled something like, John Jones is the greatest ever do it, and his biggest enemy was himself. Because no one could really touch him in the cage. When you can argue, you could say Santos, you can say Reyes,

and the Dominic Reyes is the one we're actually scored for Dominic Reyes. ultimately he won the fight. Matt Hamill, sorry, buddy. I know you're an Ohio guy, but you did not beat John Jones. His biggest enemy was himself. It wasn't Daniel Cormier. His biggest rival wasn't Daniel Cormier.

It was John Jones. The guy staring back at John Jones in the mirror, that was his greatest enemy. It wasn't the guys he took on. Because you got to think about that, like, when he fought, like he was going to headline UFC 200, which is one of the biggest cards ever. And he got busted for a, you know, steroids or whatever it was. going to bust it off the car with Daniel Cormier. That ended up being one of the biggest cards ever.

He was going to share the card, Brock Lesnar and all this other stuff. Gone. Now that we, I was there that week. I remember going to the press conference and he was crying. Like, and that does that do with the legal stuff. That's the steroid stuff. That's the other thing we bring up. Like, that was a drug test.

And that knocked him out at one of the biggest events of all time. Now, did he eventually fight Daniel Cormier and knock him out? Yeah, but then that got overturned because of a drug test. So it's just like the little things like, like, you're right. Like, ultimately when it comes to his career, he absolutely is still the greatest, but you wonder, like, his greatest enemy was himself. I don't care how you paint it. Like, sorry, I love D.C.

You know, I'm a D.C. guy. It's my guy. But, like, D.C. was never John's greatest rival. John's greatest rival was John Jones because he couldn't get out of his own way. I mean, he got out of his own way enough to, you know, have 14 title defenses and go undefeated, right? So it's like, you know, it's kind of a, yeah, I don't know, man. It's like, how much more greatness do we want out of the guy? You know what I mean?

Yeah. Well, I think, like, taking away the legal stuff. Like, I'm just bringing up, like, the drug thing. It was like, he missed out on UFC 200 because that had nothing to do with his behavior outside. But like you said, like the same guy that he was supposed, you know, the actual card itself. Yeah, it's a great, big card. I mean, the guy that he was supposed to fight, he ended up fighting him again and beating his ass. You know, it's like, it's like, I don't know.

Like, how much did it really affect him, you know? There's literally only one fight that we would have liked to see him see happen that didn't happen. That's Tom Aspinall. Like there's no other fight that we're like, dude, this absolutely needs to happen. He needs to be challenged by this guy. And it didn't happen. Like he fought every other challenge that they came across and did it while, you know, partying and doing coke and going to jail and everything else.

So I don't think it really hurt him. to be honest. I mean, and with that said, I mean, you know, I think had he not done all those things, yeah, he could have fought more often and probably, I mean, I think he could be like 60 and 0 right now if he wanted, right? And then in the light heavyweight and heavyweight division, there wouldn't be a single guy that didn't lose to John Jones, like he just beat everybody. And he could probably have a lot more money too because he probably missed out a lot of

sponsorships and stuff because he was doing all this, like he was signed to Nike at one point and then he got arrested. Yeah, and it's like when you got. as much money as he has. I mean, how much does that really matter? I mean, you know, you can, I think you kind of have to have that much money to make an argument either way on that, which I don't. So I won't make an argument.

But, yeah, I just, I don't really see where it got in his way that much. I mean, he beat everybody's ass that was a potential challenger. Like, there was never a time where, like, like, this guy needs to fight John Jones. and it didn't happen. Until now, this is the only one. Except, yeah, and, you know, and now we're talking about the tail end of his career that we, you know, I think we knew he was on his way out anyway, right? I mean, we've been talking about him retiring for a long time, right? He's talked about it for a long time.

I think we knew he was on his way out. Like, and, you know, some people are going to make the argument that he, that he abducted Tom Aspinall. And, you know, I'll shoot that down right. now. Like he's not ducking Tom Aspinall. Maybe he's not interested in that tough of a fight. Like I would give you that. If that's what you want to say, ducking, get the fuck out of here. Yeah, no, I agree. It's funny because

I know that I'm not trying to belittle the situation, but you brought it up before and it's true like he did Coke on like a Sunday. And then five days later goes out and beats one of the greatest fighters in all the time. I don't think John Jones could do that. I know it's like I'm not trying to be. light of a situation but like holy shit like that's how good John Jones was

and I think like if you want to build the narrative the other way it's like look at all the fuck-ups he had and he still went out there it was like to generally speaking when guys were that messed up like they're out of the sport or they're not training or they're you know this guy did it on top of that like that's insane. I've seen

less fuck-ups like really fuck up someone's fight career right with less shit like I've done a lot of cocaine in my life you know it's been a long time many many years I can

I can not for the life of me imagine going out to a professional fight nonetheless against the fucking Olympian one of the greatest fighters ever and having a fucking chance I can't even imagine walking out you know what I mean like I can't imagine weighing in or walking out

and and I mean that is a fucking special special motherfucker I know it's something we're not trying to belittle what you do but like that's ridiculous that you could do that. John Jones on a level and he's still the greatest of all time. But as you said,

and also I think the other thing is like, I don't know if he's rooting for it or not because if Tom Aspinall goes out there and loses his next fight, John will totally feel even more justified. Be like, see, see, he wasn't whatever one thought he was. So, you know, there's no guarantees. But we'll see how it all plays out. We've got to wait for Tom to get booked.

And, you know, I mean, if he fights Cyril Gahn, I'm going to pick him to beat Cyril Gond handily. but it's MMA, you know, like you never know. So, I mean, I didn't. It's a tough matchup for Tom, in my opinion, but. Yeah, I mean, I think I, like, as good as Junior DeSantis was, I still wasn't picking him to beat Kane Velasquez the first time, but he did, he knocked him out.

Now, the next two fights didn't go his way, but even in that moment, I was like, I don't know, man. I don't think he beat King Velasquez, he knocked him out in a minute flat. So to say that Cyril Gan can't do it, no, you can do it. It's heavy weight, but, you know, my odds are on Tom Aspinall going out there and beating Cyril gone. You know, we'll see how it all plays out. Matt, this week, and, of course, I mentioned UFC 317,

Ilya, finally going back up to Lightway, taking on Charles Olivera. I'm curious, like, because, you know, Islam's gone, and Charles is in kind of a weird position because, you know, he's only on that one-fight win streak. He beat Chandler. We've had a lot of conversation about where Chandler actually deserves to be ranked at Lightweight

because, you know, it's not like he has, like, the greatest resume since coming to the UFC. I think the more deserving contender would have been Armin Sarukian, but that's not the fight that's happening. So what do you make of Ilya and Charles, and what do you expect in that fight this weekend? Boy, I have no idea, man. That's going to be a very awesome fight. I cannot wait to watch that because I think that's a great, great fight.

You know, my fear is, you know, Charles is hitable, and Ilya cracks really hard and has good precise strikes. obviously like really, really good boxing. But, you know, Charles has shown to be able to take those punches too. So it's going to be interesting. And then, you know, if it does go to the ground, I think it's going to get even more interesting because I don't know if Ilya can handle Charles's jiu-jitsu. I mean, he's nasty, nasty jihitsu and submissions. And, you know, Ilya, first time at 155.

Boy, this, it's not very often, but, you know, You know, this is one of them. I think it's totally up in the air. And usually when I feel something like that, like one person comes out and dominates. And then, you know, like, oh, yeah, I shouldn't know that. Like, that was obvious. But, you know, also with like Charles, where he's at in his career, you know, he's definitely, like, on the tail end. And he's been through tons of wars.

But he's looked amazing, too, lately. So, you know, he's looked great. So, you know, I'm not going to take that into too much account. But I don't know. Like, what's your thoughts on it? Because I'm just like, I can see this going a million different ways. It's funny because when you look at Charles's record, the only bad loss. And what I mean bad is like a fight he lost in a lopsided fashion.

He lost to Islam. He didn't really get beat up by Armin. You could argue he beat Armin. It was a split decision. It was a very, very close fight in three rounds. And then he goes out there and fights like a little, you know, you know, a smaller, muscular power puncher, and Michael Chandler takes him down repeatedly

and just balls him on the ground. Now, he doesn't get a finish, and Chandler comes back in that fifth round and, you know, hammer fits him in the back of the head about 20 times. Doesn't need to hear nor there. I forgot about that. But you think about, like,

he took punches from Dustin Porier. He took punches from Justin Gaich, who are two of the hardest hitting lightweights in the history of the sport. Now, I'm not saying Ilya can't be as good as far as as power punching, but those are two of the best ever. He took him and kept coming.

The only fight he had since he's come to lightweight outside of when he lost to Paul Feld or whatever it was years ago was Islam. And that was Islam. Islam's the number one pound for pound fighter in the sport right now. I think people are really looking past Charles Olivera and just like, let's just go ahead and crown Ilya to Portia Champion. I think that's a huge mistake. I think Ili is really, really good. He is. But five foot seven coming up to lightweight and his one fight of lightweight, he got knocked around.

He did end up knocking up. out the guy, but he did get knocked around. I know that's a couple years ago, but Charles has a very similar figure, you know, long, lanky, nasty knees up the middle, good power, incredible submissions. On paper, I say Ilya wins because he's got youth on his side. He's got youth and power on his side. If he adapts the lightweight well enough in terms of like putting on the muscle and stuff,

I think he'll be fine. I think he wins this fight. Now, would I pick him to beat Armin? Would I pick him to beat... you know, down the line, other guys who are lightweight. I don't know, man. The light weight's a freaking snake pit. But Charles seems like a fight he can win.

But I don't discount Charles pulling this off because I think people are just anointing Ili and saying, oh, he's the champ. Go ahead and give him the belt. I think it's a little too quick to do that because Charles Oliver is a bad, bad motherfucker. Yeah, and I think the biggest kind of question mark here is can he handle Ilius power, right?

And like you said, you know, he's taking shots from Gagey, take shots from Porreier. But, you know, so did Max Holloway. And then Ilya cracked him and put it into that with, you know, just a couple punches or maybe one punch.

I don't remember exactly, but you know, is it, I believe just from watching him, like he looks like he's a lot more precise. And, you know, there's a thing called effective mass, right? The amount of

body energy and weight that transfer into the punch and ilia does that very well like he transfers his body weight very well where there's a lot of effective mass behind right because of so think of this like a a punch is uh comes you know knockout comes from amount of force force equals mass times acceleration right so some people are fast but they you know kind of throw arm punches some people you know are slow but they got a lot of power behind it right he has a good combination of the two right he's quick and and and you know he knows how to use his mass very well and his body weight behind the punches. And so that's where his power might be enough, especially moving up to 55, not cutting weight or cutting less weight. I'm sure he probably put on a couple pounds. He's maybe more relaxed coming in. So, like, I think his power could still be an X factor, even though we've seen Charles deal with, you know, I don't think we've ever seen Charles flatlined, right?

I mean, we've seen him hurt many times, but I can't think of a time where he was flatlined and, you know, just really just out. Well, but with that said, you know, I think if he can land that shot, I think, you know, he could change this fight, you know, because I don't see him necessarily wanting to engage in a ground battle with Charles.

But then, again, like you got Charles who, like, he's got those knees that just, just come from nowhere, you know, and he's so slick and smooth and, you know, there's great kicks. And so that's what I said. Like this one, I could totally see it going just a million different ways. And, you know, we'll see how the narrative changes after the fight. But right now, if they were fighting a hundred times, like, I'd be like, dude, this guy

I win 50 of them and this guy I win 50 of them. Yeah, I think for me, and certainly Charles Oliver doesn't need my advice. But I would say if Charles goes out there and fights illy the way he fought Michael Chandler, He's got a great chance to win. Just negate that power. Don't let him hit you. Take him down. He's got good wrestling.

Obviously, he knows he's an incredible jujitsu guy, but he went out there and took Michael Chandler down at will. You know what I mean? If you do not allow Ilya to get heavy behind his punches, you just negate his best weapon because you look at what he did to, you look at what he did to Holloway. You look at what he did to Volcanowski. That's all on the feet.

You know, he's not doing that. He's not taking people down and ground and pounding them. He's doing it on the feet. Take that away from him and go out there and take him down. Because I've said, like, since day one, when Ily is coming up, I was like, the guys are going to give him the most problem are the guys like Armin, Islam, and Matush Gamron.

Guys were just going to go out there and wrestle fuck him. Because you're short stockier guys who got a lot of power. If they can't generate that power and you're on your back, you're screwed. I'm not saying you can't win fights, but I'm saying like that's the toughest matchup for Iliot to Porte at 155 are going to be those guys who can take him down and put him on his back and hold him and not let him get hit.

Charles has that ability. Now, will he do it? Can he do it? Yeah, right. He's not Armin. He doesn't have Armands wrestling. He doesn't have Islam's wrestling. So that's where it kind of worries me a little bit.

And he also doesn't have the style of them either. We're like, you know it's common and that's what he's going for. For the most part, you know, you can obviously change it up for this fight. But that's what I said. Like, I mean, again, I can see this fight playing out so many different ways. That's what we pay to watch for, right? That's what makes this sport so exciting. And this is just a perfect fight.

to stay up to 1 a.m. on a Saturday night to watch because this is just a glorious fight. I mean, the technique of these two guys is just amazing. The skills, the level that they fight at. And, again, it could just go a million ways. And I can't make a prediction on this one. I mean, I'm leaning Ilya just because I think he does have the power and because Charles does tend to get hit what you said at the very beginning.

I think is true. So I got to lean I in this fight if I'm making a pick. I know you've said this on the show many times, Matt, and you've kind of brought me around to this way of thinking that the UFC doesn't really care who wins or loses. They're going to move on and make money no matter what. They're making record-breaking revenues no matter where they go. They just did in Atlanta. You got a massive car come up in Abu Dhabi in a couple weeks,

and they're going to make boatloads of money on that. I don't think they're like, oh, man, if Charles wins were screwed, they don't care. They're going to move on, and they're going to book Charles against Armand for rematch, or they're going to do whatever. But from the outside looking in, because now we have to, perspective, Conner's gone, never coming back. John Jones is retired, hypothetically never coming back.

I'm not saying the UFC cares because I'm defining they probably don't. But it's got to be better for the UFC really to Portia wins because he's a real star. He's got legitimate star potential where he is like, I mean, he's going to soccer stadiums and people are freaking out and he's a massive star overseas and he's got both kind of like Spain and Georgia. Like he's got the Georgia thing too, so kind of like the Marab thing. but he's also got Spain. Like, the UFC may not care,

but it's better for the UFC of Iliot to Porti wins. Let's be honest about that. Yeah, I agree. And that's, you know, we have to define like, you know, do they care or not, right? I wouldn't say so much like they, maybe I should rephrase that. It's not they don't care.

Like, you know, they would rather Ilya win this fight. But if they don't, if he doesn't, like it's not going to change their. bottom line right like there's things are still going to move the train's going to keep rolling everything is going to be fine for them are they sitting in the back saying you know checking their bank accounts and saying you know is we is zillia going to win this fight yeah probably you know like i think that would be a preferred victory for them but is uh again if he loses all as well in the world of UFC.

Yeah. But I think like with Ilya, they have potential because, you know, what he did to Alex, Alexander Bokenowski, what he did to Max Holloway, if he can do that to Charles Oliver, you got to, because right now,

if there's one kind of complaint about the UFC right now, there's not a lot of stars. Like, they're doing well. Anyone that says they're not doing well is just lying in themselves. Go look at the receipts. Go look at their revenue. They're doing very well.

No one can say the UFC's not successful. They're about to sign a new TV deal, probably making a billion dollars a year. You can't say they're, they're failing if that happens. You can't tell the U.S. you can't tell the U.S.s screw it up because they're making a billion dollars a year.

But superstars still matter. You know what I mean? We talk about they're doing the press conferences right now and like Netflix is going to break ridiculous records putting Canello and Crawford on Netflix. Like that's a massive fight. Now, right now in the UFC,

like Jones Aspenol was the one. Like that was their biggest fight. That's no longer on the table. So what, like Islam going up to 170 is a big fight, but Jack Della Madelaine is not exactly a big name. So, like, you're kind of banking on Islam plus going up and wait. Like, that's going to be the selling point of that fight, not necessarily who he's fighting. Ilya has that potential.

Like, Ilya has that star potential. If he can go out there and knock out Charles Olivaire, and then he's got, you know, guys like Arm and waiting him, whatever. He becomes the ultimate A side. Like, he becomes the guy like, like Connor, like where you don't really care who he's fighting, you're just going to watch Ilya to pour you. I think he has that potential. So maybe this is an opportunity for him to do that. Yeah, at least in Europe, right?

I'm not sure if he's that much of a star in America. I mean, I think he's famous and, you know, celebrity and a star, but, you know, not enough where, you know, not like Connor was or anything, right? But in Europe, yeah, absolutely. So, like I said, I mean, I'm sure that, you know, Dana and Ari and, you know, whoever, you know, it can, you know, could be affected financially by this. I'm sure in the back of their head,

they're like, you know, it'd be real nice if Ilya goes out there and wins and, you know, make a few extra mail this year. But again, you know, if he loses, like, they're still getting a billion dollar deal. Yeah. Like, they, you know, their balls aren't going to start sweating. You know, they'll be all right.

Yeah, they're going to be totally fine. Do you have a whole lot of interest in Pantosia versus Kikar, France because I gotta be honest like it's a title fight but it's like I'm being honest like I'm not trying to knock Kai Kar France but like it would be it would be a massive massive upset if he won this fight like Pantosia has just looked so good and you know Kai's had some struggles he's had you know he's only a one fight win streak I'd be shocked if Kai Kar France won this fight I won't be shocked if Charles Oliva beats elite deporia I will be shocked if Kai Kar France beats Alessandro Pantoja well I tell you what we

I've watched the UFC long enough now that I'm not shocked by a whole lot. And I think Kai Kar-France does have the skills. You know, he's good enough to be in there with Pantoja, right? Where, you know, this is in May. And if he wins, I'm not going to be like, I won't be too shocked, right? But Pantosia is the favorite for a reason. It should be. I find it interesting, you know, only in the sense that, you know,

I think Kai Kar is an interesting fighter to watch. I think he's got a cool style. I think he's fun to watch. Pantosia, kind of the same. Like, he's a unique fighter, you know, and I like seeing him get a little bit of love. You know, I think he's, I think he's done a lot more than he gets credit for. I think he's doing an amazing job,

and he's kind of flying under the radar as a champion and, you know, the smaller weight class. And I think he's doing pretty impressive things out there. So I like him getting a little bit of shine here. Yeah, no, I like, I like the thing he's great. And like I said, but I think the problem that Pantoja is running into is the same thing I talked about earlier with Tom Aspinall, where he's kind of run through the top guys. He's already beat Moreno a couple times, beat Brandon Royval a couple times. And like after his last fight, he goes out there beats Kai Asakura, a guy that not, you know, any hardcore fan knew who he was.

But the general audience didn't know the whole Kai Osokor was. He goes out there and beats him. And who does he call out? He calls out Demetri's Johnson because he doesn't really have like, he didn't really have a guy. So he's like, DJ, come back. and DJ laughs. He's like, I'm not coming back. But like, that's how far

Pantoja's already gone, where he's like, well, I got no one else to fight. DJ, where are you at, buddy? Yeah, yeah. That's a problem. Like, you know, because like Tom, if Tom goes out there and lays waste to Cyril gone, he's probably going to call out John Jones

because who the hell else is going to call out? Like, what? Jelton on Mehta, where are you at, buddy? Like, yeah, right. Yeah, I guess, you know, that could be a potentially an issue at some point with the UFC, right? because there's not, definitely not as many stars as I remember they're being in the past.

And, yeah, maybe that's just our own fandom, right, because we've been fans for so long. But it feels to me definitely like there's not as many stars. And, you know, belts are changing hands a little bit more often. Guys, I think there's a lot of, like, guys wanting to take those bigger risks, right, because of the potential love or money or, or, or fan, I don't know, fame or whatever, they can come with that,

which Connor kind of set up, right? We see them moving up divisions a lot more, you know, trying to be this double champ thing a lot more, two division title holders a lot more often. Yeah, and I think it's something that, I think the UFC should do something about it. I think they should fix it. And I think, you know, just set in standard guidelines for a few things.

Personally, that's just the way that I would handle it. and, you know, like, you have to defend your title two times before you're able to move up or, you know, something along those lines. I don't know. But, you know, I don't know. I mean, who would we even say is the biggest star right now? I mean, Islam probably, Ilya or Islam worldwide, but in America, I don't know. I think Islam's pretty well known, like, world, just because he's at, you know, obviously, I think he gets the rub from fighting guys like Porier and, you know, Porre is a star. Yeah, yeah.

I think Islam is probably the guy, but I think Ili is probably right there, you know, in terms of like, you know, people who recognize and what he's done. Yeah, it's interesting because, like, they're in a weird situation now because, like, guys like Sean Amali have lost, Alex Pereira lost, John Jones is gone. I think Tom Aspinall is going to have some rub right now because everyone kind of knows him because the whole John Jones situation. But I do appreciate, and you mentioned the title thing, I do appreciate it. seems like the precedent is now set.

If you want to go up, you're giving up your belt. Because they made Islam give up his belt. If they were going to do it to anyone, like Islam would be the guy. You'd be like, you're the number one guy pound for pound. We're going to let you go try to be double champ. Even him, they're like, you got to give up the belt. So it seems like the double champ thing, the champ champ thing is dead. They're probably like, you know what?

We're not doing this shit anymore. Right, right. But yeah, I don't know. Like, I think it's Islam and Ilya probably won two and I'd probably put Tom maybe, you know, around that range. And I mean, Kayla's got a lot of rub right now. Taylor's a pretty big star. But like all these names that we're talking about, I mean, I think, again, maybe it's just because we've been in the sport for so long.

Like, you know, we're used to, you know, going all the way back. Like, Uriah Faber, like, was a bigger star than any of these guys, right? Like, or, you know, Jose or GSP and Anderson and coach, even Randy Couture. And, you know, I mean, the list goes on and on. Like, it felt like they were bigger stars back then where it's more like either. even out now. And again, I think a lot of that has to do with the expansion of the UFC worldwide, right? Like Islam and Ilya are probably a lot more worldwide famous than any of those guys I just mentioned were. But, you know, being in America and, you know, that's my kind of the optics that I'm

seeing over here. Well, and you can, I'm not certainly discounting being popular worldwide, by the way. I think that's a huge achievement. But, you know, there's a reason why the UFC is about to sign a billion-dollar TV deal. That's America. That's their bread and butter. That's ultimately where they're going to care the most about. Now, they sign with Netflix. That is a global deal and that would be big worldwide. So I'm certainly not discounting the worldwide audience. I'm just saying

like, just like anything else, like, their bread and butter is the United States. Like, that's where they're going to make their biggest deal. When you look at their bottom line, where does the most money come from? It comes from their broadcast deal. Where does their broadcast deal come from? It comes to the United States. So like that's still what they have to care about. You can put on cards in Abu Dhabi

and Saudi Arabia or whatever. And you get big huge paycheck to go there, but it's the audience of the United States is still paying the bill. Yeah, they're going to buy the most merch and they're going to, yeah, they're going to, you know, buy the most pay-per-views most likely as far as, far as I know. I think like in Europe they don't even really have paper views, right, or something like that. I think England does, but like most countries don't, yeah, most countries don't have pay-per-view, so, which is why I think there's a good chance that goes away because, like, them doing,

them doing Canelo Crawford on Netflix, as soon as they did that deal, like, oh yeah, UFC's going pay-per-views on Netflix. Like, they're just going to get paid a bunch of money to do. Which we haven't even brought up yet. Like, all right, where are you at on the Canelo Crawford, bro?

I mean, I'm all Crawford. I think Crawford's going to beat him. Yeah, interesting. I think Canella's lost the stab. He's getting a little older, and his last couple of fights have not been, he's been like very, you know, and maybe it's the John Jones thing

where he's just like, I'm fighting these guys who don't really belong in there with me, so I'm just kind of walking, you're asleep walking through Wage. But Crawford, man that's a bad dude man like I said I always go back to that one win the one I always talk about what he got when I thought was gonna be a good fight Errol Spins thank you I thought it was gonna be a good fight he just goes out there

beats the brakes off him I'm I'm big on Terrence Crawford I think Terrence I mean I know size and everything but like I just think Crawford's a better boxer right now I totally agree that Crawford is a better boxer but he's going up two way classes and I started looking through some of his resume there day and I don't know all the boxers on a resume I don't follow quite that close but I was trying to think guys that were like as big as Crawford like because he's a big guy

for his weight class too and I don't think he's really fought you know guys his size very often I'm sure some of them were you know some of the no name guys or the lesser guys but most of the guys he's like Errol Spence I mean he's you know, I mean,

height-wise, he's as big as him, but, you know, he's not, like, he's a speed guy, you know, he doesn't have the power and stuff like that. And, you know, you just look through some of the guys, and you're like, like, Canello is enormous to him. You know, and now when they stood, when they stood face-to-face, I was like, yeah, Canelo's not as big as I thought, you know,

next to him. But I think when he gets in there and, you know, feels those punches, I think it's going to be interesting. You don't see guys move up two weight classes. you'll see them move up, you know, one weight class than another, where I kind of work their way up. But in boxing, to move up two weight classes

and just straight skip and go straight up, that's a pretty rare thing. But I totally agree that Terrence is a better, overall, more diverse boxer. But I don't think it's going to take very many from Canelo to completely change the fight. And lastly, Canelo tends to get the scorecards in his favor. like a lot

he gets like any close close rounds like go to Canello every time it seems like to me and he is and Canelo has fought guys like Crawford

in some respect before and beat them whereas I'm not sure if Crawford has ever fought anyone like a Canelo you know in this at least you know that high of a level and that much bigger

and that much power yeah it's interesting I'm excited for it. It's a really, really good fight, but I'll be honest, like, I was more excited for Ussick Fury just because, like, what they had done and, like, that dynamic of, like, Usig being such a great boxer, but he was so much smaller,

and, you know, Fury being this ginormous guy, and then, you know, Ousick goes out there, beats him once, beats him again, like, oh, my God, what an incredible achievement right there. I was more excited for that fight than I was this one, but I am excited. And, you know, it's just like, it's like when Mayweather beat Canella years ago,

you're like it, I mean, it counts. It was a win, but like that was so young in Canella's career. Like he got so much better after losing to Mayweather. You're kind of like, it counts. Absolutely counts. But Mayweather fought him very early on. Like if they fought five years later, you know, totally different, totally different fight, totally different circumstances. I think it would have been different five years later for sure.

Like that was Crawford's first major pay-per-view. It's just like when these guys come into the UFC, you know, and like that they've never experienced lights like that before. media pressure like that and and and Floyd thrives on that stuff you know what I mean and and Canello was like just coming into his own and yeah it would have been different and I don't even necessarily know that Canello would have beat him either you know because Floyd also made him cut down an extra weight class you know you can't you can't forget about that part you know that was out of Canello's weight um you know a lot of different factors there and you know that's why Floyd is a, he's a genius, you know, in terms of a boxing career.

Yeah, 100%. And you've seen it like guys and girls, we see, people become deer in the headlights and the spotlights a little bit. And that was very early on for Canelo. Now, you know, he took that experience and now he's the guy. Like, he steps in there and he's always, like performing. But I just think, like, that also plays, even though I think actually Crawford's older than Canello,

but in terms of like where they're at in their careers, I feel like Canello is kind of on the tail end of. his run and it still feels like Terrence is kind at his peak. I know he's, I think he's like two years older, but I feel like Terrence is kind of his peak right now. So I'm leaning Terrence. And I kind of wonder about that in the sense of like, are we feeling that way because Canello's been around so long or is Conno feeling that way also?

And I'm not, I haven't seen signs of Conno feeling that way. Now, I know he's had some mediocre performances. But again, I mean, he's wealthy beyond, you know, imagination. And, you know, he doesn't need to be fighting some of these guys that he fights. And, you know, to me, that just shows, like, how good he actually is. Like, like, Canelo is a really, really great fighter. And I was never a Canelo believer, to be honest, until he fought Triple G. And I thought Triple G won one of the fights.

I'm not remembering the exact order. But the one time when Canello beat him, you know, he beat him handedly. And I was like, wow, Canello is a really, good fighter and I've watched him a lot since and man he's good so you know I think I just my whole point is I wonder if that's us feeling like that or if that's actually Canello

feeling like that. I yeah I think the first triple G fight was the one where you say canella always seems to get the scorecards he definitely did that night because I think that's the first one right I think yeah the triple G the third one is when he beat the brakes on triple G but the first one triple G should have won that fight and the judges are like no no no yeah And there was a few like that.

One of the most egregious ones, in my opinion, was the Lara fight, Erislondi Laura. I mean, it was, man, it was just terrible. But whatever, you know, it doesn't matter. I think it's going to be very interesting to see how Crawford handles Canello's power and pressure. And, you know, and I think the most interesting part for Canelo is how he handles Crawford switching Southpaw to conventional because I think throws people off a huge loop and Crawford is so good on both sides

which is so rare in boxing. He's such a technician. Like it's so ridiculous. Like I said, like he picks people apart. And like it's just like the way you always used to back of the day you would rave about Lomachinko and rightfully so he was such an incredible boxer. Like that's kind of the way I felt about Crawford.

I'm just like after watching him do that, to Errol Spence, like where I thought it was going to be an amazing fight, and he just decimated Errol Spence. I was like, well, all right then. I guess I need to be a Terrence Crawford fan now, because, boy, did he prove me wrong. I was like, I thought Errol Spence is going to give him a challenge, and that was not a challenge.

So, yeah, I'm just high on Crawford right now, and I just, maybe you're right. You might be 100% right. You know, Canello's just kind of cruising right now, and he needs a Crawford to get up for the challenge. But I just, I don't know if everyone, you know, like the same deal with the Canello, the Canello Mayweather fight

if it happened five years later. What was that one? What was the fight that Mayweather had towards the end of his career where he almost lost? There's a few of them. Middano was a huge one. Medana, that was the one.

Like, where it's like, Maydana, like on paper, that should have been, yeah, should have been a fight. You argue he beat Mayweather. Like, people out of my first fight. Yeah, I'm saying?

Like, so maybe that's just where Kinella's at where he's like, I don't give a fuck about this guy. Like, why do I care about this guy? And so maybe it's going to take Crawford to kind of wake him up, you know? Yeah, there's some of that. And look, and look, like, like, like, he's,

boxing and fighting, like, they're tough sports. Like, it is stylistically, like, he doesn't have to necessarily be the greatest guy to make you look bad. Like, sometimes it could just be somebody that just has something about their style. Sometimes you can't even explain it. Like, I'll go to the gym and spar with, you know,

amateurs or, you know, lower level guys. And every now and then you'll get a guy, like, you know, he's only been training for a few months and, like, he just gives you problems. So, you know, it's not like you can't beat them. And, you know, when you're going with guys like that, you usually take it a little bit easier and stuff. But, you know, who go little things in there.

You're like, you're just not used to seeing. And then there's people like a Madonna who, not necessarily so technical. So they start figuring out, or they start having success with some of those kind of oddball things. They start doing before they learn the proper ways. in quote unquote proper ways and

then it kind of becomes their thing you know and we've seen instances of this many times you know especially in MMA especially in MMA like Yuri Paraska you know like like you know look at all the great things he's done

with no technique at all like you can't explain anything that he does you know so it's a you know a lot of times just because it's you know the fight looks a little sloppy or ugly or close

and you're like oh it's a lower level guy it's not always so simple yeah well I tell you what though I do love that it's on Netflix and I only have to pay my normal monthly subscription and not $100 or whatever they would normally charge so as soon as they did that my first thought was oh yeah you OEC's going to Netflix they're putting paper views over there like yeah yeah like that was my first thought and let's be honest

like people are like oh paper use a huge driver it is a huge driver but guess what now you're going to have 300 million people watching your shows. Like that's going to produce a whole lot of money for the UFC to just do that. Like, because they don't always have the most compelling pay-per-views. And you can now you can just be like, hey, now you can go watch it on Netflix for, you know, for free, not really for free. But $15 versus $80, a big difference. And yeah, I think that's, and that's only going to grow their fan base. Like, I think that's going to get even more popular being on something like Netflix.

Like that's only going to get them that much bigger because people who are like, I can't adjust my 80s. $80, but I can justify a Netflix subscription. For sure, yeah. I'm going to talk about like multi-network deals potentially. And, you know, you've been around long enough. You remember back in the days when we couldn't wait for it to be on like ESPN or Fox or whatever. And now that it's there, I mean, it feels, you know, maybe a little oversaturated, right?

Like, I don't, I'm not necessarily interested in watching every card anymore. And maybe that's just the old man. me too like i'm you know i'm getting up there um and i just i wonder how that's going to play into them being on multiple networks and us getting having such easy access to watching fights all the time like are we going to value it as much when we don't have to go to the bar to watch the fight because we don't have 80 bucks or or we don't have to invite over our buddies to put all the money to get you know what i mean like it's just like we just turn on tv and watch it whenever you want i think The pay-per-view of it does go to Netflix,

I think that's going to increase fans because the people who are like, should I watch it? Should I get my buddies together? They're like, well, now I don't need that. I just flip on Netflix and watch. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I can just watch it.

Now, the fight night cards, that's a different animal because, like, what they're doing in Abu Dhabi, I mean, that's a pay-per-view level card right there. I mean, you got, you know, DeRitter and Whitaker. You got, you know, Peter Yons fight on that card. Like, that's a really, really good card. But more oftentimes than not,

you go to the apex it's an apex card it's so you know there's like one maybe two ranked fighters then a whole bunch of now okay so now when when they said they put the the highest level cards on paper view right but now when the pay per view card is just as accessible as an apex card on ESPN like is it really going to mean that much more or does it all kind of even out and we look at every fight is the same and again just saturate it it like that and making it that accessible, could it possibly overdo it? And now

the cards don't mean as much because we're not valuing it as much. I don't think that's an issue, especially if this is going to sound weird saying this, I think if they split the package, because if you just go, like ESPN owns the Fight Nights, contender series, Ultimate Fighter, like everything else, and then the paper use themselves are on Netflix. I think that's still separate enough.

We're like, well, I could just go to ESPN for that, the streaming, and then I got Netflix for like the really, really big shows. But I don't think it's... Special shows are on Netflix. Yeah, but I don't think it really hurts because, I mean, you know, I mean, other sports, like, you know, like UFC's the last one.

Like, I mean, I know boxing still does pay-per-views, but, like, that's all boxing has. Like, I don't, like, people still don't tune in to watch, like Tuesday night fights anymore. Like, they tune in to watch Canelo Crawford. They tune in to watch Ushy Fury. Like, they're not cheating into a... You know, so I think the UFC, like,

they're still going to have, like, if they can still have that marquee number that UFC 304, 3010, whatever, 315, whatever the number is. And they got championship fights. Those are still going to matter more, whether they're on Netflix or not. I think that's still, I think they've built enough of a fan base now to where people are like, that is the Canelo Crawford, that is the Usick Fury of that sport, even if they're giving it,

not given away, but they're putting it on Netflix versus like ESPN. Like I said, I think if anything, it's only going to increase the UFC's popularity because Netflix has 300 million subscribers. Like, ESPN Plus has 24 million. The most, the most, and that's, I'm saying, like, if every single person that has a subscription to ESPN Plus bought a UFC baby, that's 24 million. Now that's never going to happen, but that's 24 million. Netflix has 310 million out of the gate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, everyone's certainly like Jake Paul, Mike Tyson is the most watched fight of all time. Not because it was a good fight, not because anyone really gave it. shit. It's because it was Mike Tyson and it was on Netflix. They didn't have to pay extra for it. So 100 million people tuned in. Like, imagine the UFC puts out Iliate Teporia versus Islam McAcha. They finally do that super fight

and they do it on Netflix. That can be like 200 million people could tune in to watch that fucking thing. That's a lot of people. Yeah, that all makes sense like, again, like short term, but you know, I'm talking five, 10 years from now. We're like just so used to being so accessible and we're just talking earlier about kind of the star power

maybe evening out a little bit already also and you know you got to wonder if that uh lack of star power comes from that oversaturation to some extent and i'm not saying this to make any predictions or anything or or uh you know be controversial about or anything it's just an observation where i'm like you know is there a possible uh you know what kind of playing devil's advocate is could this possibly be a negative uh thing over the long term i mean i don't think you're wrong in thinking that. I just, I think that the UFC, if the UFC is as

stayed as successful as they are right now without Connors, without the John Joneses, without the Rhonda Rousey's, I think they can keep going. And if anything, I think almost like the UFC's kind of transitioning, because like WWE, which they also own, of course, like, WWU used to have pay-per-views. Now it's just on, like you have a Peacop subscription. You get WrestleMania. Like, they didn't lose fans. Like, they still do

massive, massive business for WrestleMania. at being just on Peacock, and it's been that way for the last, like, five or six years, and they're going to sign a deal for a lot of money just to put those, like, what they call premium live events. They only call them pay-a-viewing. They're going to make a boatload of money because that deals up next year. That's going to be the next big nut that WW is going to sign. And it's just, I think it's no deal.

I think over time, well, if they do go away from pay-per-view, I think over time we're just going to move on because it's like we don't think of it, when the NFL playoffs are happening, it's just the NFL playoffs. We're not thinking, like, it's not on pay-per-view. It's the NFL playoffs. It matters. You know, they're like, it's UFC 325, Iliate Tupori versus is a Macaca. We're not going to give a fuck that it's not on pay-per-view.

We're just going to care of this. So I think long-term, in a way, I think long-term it actually benefits them because they don't have to worry about that guaranteed, like, oh, we got to sell, you know, we got to sell 500,000 paperweems to break even or whatever. They're just like, hey, Netflix is paying us half a billion a year to do this. Who gives a fuck? Yeah, and maybe. um you all in with this i think ultimately that's probably just the old soul in me

coming out and talking back when i remember you remember too back when like pay-per-view was a fucking special thing right when tito or tis and ken shamrock went to fight i was a bro i'm not fucking missing that for nothing and like i don't care if i got to get all my buddies together you know we're going to have a party we're going to have a bonfire whatever the fuck it is and maybe i just missed that you know and maybe i just missed that you know and maybe that's just not the best way for UFC to grow and do business. So, you know, those days are long gone, man. You know, we can access it so much easier now.

And, you know, I think I really just miss those days, man. I really do. Yeah, well, we'll see out all places that's going to be interesting. But I think Canello Crawford kind of set the precedent for what they're willing to do because any other year, that would be the biggest pay for you the year. But it's not going on paper review. It's going on Netflix. Matt, we're obviously going to have UFC 317 this weekend.

We'll break down everything that unfolds next week. on the podcast and who knows maybe by next Monday, John Jones will be out of retirement. You just never know it's a sport. So we'll have to see. What do you got going on where people can check you out and support you? Oh, you know, social media is usually the easiest way to catch me. And that's on I'm the immortal on Instagram or Twitter, the immortal Matt Brown on Facebook.

Because I'm on the damn phone checking my social media way more than I should. So I'll probably reply to your shit. There you go. There you go. And obviously a big thank you to everyone that always tunes in. make sure you check us out all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

and of course, over the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin. We'll see you back next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider.

Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then. Podcast Network.