MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Justin Gaethje’s Shocking Win Over Ilia Topuria, Plus Is it Time for Michael Chandler to Retire?

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to everything that went down at the UFC White House card including Justin Gaethje’s stunning performance to dethrone Ilia Topuria in the main event. Should Gaethje fight again after that kind of win and where does Topuria go next following a brutal loss? Plus we’ll break down what happened between Ciryl Gane and Alex Pereira, grading the overall card and is it time to have that difficult conversation with Michael Chandler about calling it a career? All this and more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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with Eye Gaming Ontario. Welcome back to the fighter versus the writer. I'm Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown and Matt. We are finally living in a post UFC White House world. The card went down less than 24 hours ago. Actually about less than 12 hours ago

at this point. And we are here to talk about that card. Matt, overall impressions. There was so much buzz about this card. So much conversation about this card. Was it a good idea? Was it a bad idea? It was a disastrous idea.

doing it outside. The weather became a factor last night. So overall, what did you think of the UFC White House? Man, to put it up, put it in one sentence, you know, I had a lot of questions going in, right? As I think everybody did. UFC fucking knocked it out of the park, man. You can't say enough good things about it.

Like, it was, I'm not sure it could have went any better. Like, I don't think you could have written it any better. So, you know, it was one of the few times where I felt like it was worth staying up. as late as I did, you know. You know, I do wish it could have went a little faster, but the whole time we're watching, like it didn't feel like there was wasted time. Outside, okay, my only complaint,

and this is just a complaint with the UFC on Paramount in general, which we've talked about, is the ads during the corner, right? I wish what they would do is just add a pay-per-view option, if only, you know, $10, $20, $30, whatever, where you could just not have to see the ads because I felt like that completely ruined the vibe every single time it came on.

You know, I'm sitting there with a bunch of friends and I mean, I'm like nitpicking something to complain about here too, right? Like it was a fucking tremendous night of fights, but, you know, we're sitting there watching the card and, you know, enjoying the fights. And then, you know, we're talking about it. We're like, oh, what's this corner going to say?

Oh, yeah, we don't get to hear. Yeah, that, I mean, that production part is that's definitely, definitely annoying, I'll give me that. We've kind of been complaining about that since day one in Paramount in January when they did the first fight. So I agree there. But yeah, it was ridiculous. Like, it just felt so surreal to like watch people walking out from the freaking Oval Office into the cage and like being escorted by, you know, first responders and military members and police and stuff. And like the Marine band playing covers of a lot of the songs. I thought it was a fight, like one of the coolest parts of the whole night.

Like they did a, I said on Twitter, I said they did a cover of the Topps Drop song that Derek Lewis always walks out to it. It was like the Marine cover version. It was so ridiculous, but like awesome in the best way possible. But I said before the show, we did a little like roundtable article. Basically, you know, what is best case scenario for the UFC at the White House? And I said, seven fights, seven finishes and one barn burner distil the show. And that would be like the ultimate outcome.

and that's exactly what we got. We got seven fights, seven finishes, and then Ilya Tuporia and Justin Gage put on one of the greatest back-and-forth battles I can remember in recent history. I mean, you could not have written a better script in terms of like how this plays that. Is it better, are there times where you kind of wish

you had some more, you know, back-and-forth in the fight? Sure, but they all had finishes. So you really can't complain. Like, you know, if it goes out there and it's a three-round, you know, boring, you know, grapple fast or a three-round back-and-forth fight but didn't really go anywhere. That to me is sometimes more disappointing, but every single fight ended in a finish

and quite dramatic finishes at that. And then to have that main event was just ridiculous. So yeah, I mean, outside of one comment, which is Josh Hoek being a fucking idiot, I'm not going to I'm not going to justify responding to what he says. I mean, the guy's a moron, okay? The guy's an absolute moron. Outside of that, I mean, it felt like a huge event. The fights were awesome.

The main event was not only great, but shocking, let's be honest. Like, there was a very small percentage of people picking Justin Gagey to survive, much less do what he did. I mean, it was awesome. And it felt big. Like, it felt like that kind of like monument, like when you get to like UFC 300 or, you know, when they did the first Connor versus Nate fight or whatever, it felt big. Yeah.

Like I said, I'm really not sure it could have went any better, you know. And it just felt right the whole time, too. And, you know, they didn't get. They didn't make it political. They didn't even make it about Trump, you know, you got to give them that, right? Love them or hate them, you know, there was a lot of criticism going on with the politicalness of this, which we know it. There's some politicalness, whatever, though.

It did not feel that way last night at all. It didn't come into play. And, you know, I thought they were going to like, I thought for sure they were going to like sing happy birthday to Trump, you know, like something, right? Like, you know, he's a narcissist, right? Like, you know, he wanted that shit. but he didn't do it, right? So, I mean, I thought the, the production, the setup, apparently the weather looked perfect.

Just, I don't know, every single piece of it seemed like it just worked out perfect, man. And, you know, again, you know, we find things to nitpick about, you know, fighters saying some, you know, off guard comments that you don't like or, you know, mean, I don't like to advertise. You know what I mean? Like, but we're, that's so nitpicky. Like overall, I mean, they just fucking knocked it out of the park. And you just, you can't underestimate what the UFC can do, man.

You know, like we, we, they get a lot of criticism. That's the, the position they're in when you're that big. You get the criticism. But, you know, when, when they announce this thing, we had no idea of what it was going to look like. We had no idea how they're going to pull this off, you know, all, all, at all these questions the whole time and i mean it just shows how good they are doing this they hit every fucking thing on the spot you know no hiccups throughout the night no nothing man i'm i was really blown away and i really i truly enjoyed it and i'm the most anti-government motherfucker you'll ever meet

you know i don't like you know you know me i'm a fucking anarchist bro i don't even like this shit you know but that felt it's very special special from beginning to end and it was really inspiring in my opinion so you know look again love hate Trump like it was a smart move for him to do this you know politically right and I'm just saying like it was a good move and they did it in a really good way good for them yeah and I like if you want to nitpick like the only thing I missed and this is not even real this is not a big deal it's like talking about the commercials like there were some moments and some of the fights where you're like You kind of wish they had the 20,000 people crowd

because you just hear the difference when it was like, you know, there's like 4,000 people and, you know, they're not going crazy in the stands. A lot of people are there, you know, or, you know, officials or, you know, politicians or whoever all was filling other seats. That was one thing, like, I care what fight it was. There was some fight where, like, one of the finishes,

and, like, the crowd, like, you know, they cheer, but it was like, man, I kind of wish that. I missed that, like, because there's sometimes when you're in the arena and it's, like, deafening. Like, it's just, like, so loud. But you could kind of hear them from the. You could. You could hear it.

You know, you could hear it. It was, it was still, they still got a little bit of the audio. I mean, yeah, again, I mean, you know, we could spend the whole podcast nitpicking because, you know, you can do that. But, you know, I just want to give a praise, man. I think, you know, they hit it out of the park. They did such a good job. You can't, you know, I don't think you could ask for a whole lot better.

And one other compliment I want to pay the EFC. if there's one like I guess complaint about the UFC normally on the on the pay-per-view events the number events like a lot of people like they always just kind of feel the same like there's that doesn't feel special you know like you know live like doing like a live walkout like when they did that with Connor and Chadmanez the card you were on when you fought Tim means like it was a rare thing but they did like you know Aaron Lewis performed and they had you know they had the live performance of Conner's walkout which was really cool um yeah people were like people you know kind of complained like oh man they all just kind of looked at say I get it like they did like they did do. You know, the UFC kind of has a pattern to follow it. They kind of follow it. But they did make last night feel different. Like, not they're talking about the walkouts from the from the Oval Office, but also, like I said, that Marine Band playing people out, walking out with the first responders. You know, just like everything would just like felt different and cool. And like, it didn't feel like just to any other UFC show. They didn't like, oh, you know, we're going to transform our UFC show and just do it at the White House. They didn't

do that. Like, it was special. It felt different. Like, that's like the kind of event beyond the fights itself where you're like oh yeah i'm going to remember that i'm going to remember watching this walkout or you know even i know we'll get to alix prayer's loss but when he stood at the edge of that edge of that walk when he got out there and did the bow and arrow and screamed like i said yeah like it was and you see like give give credit where credit's due to dana and and kragor sorry and the team over there but like the production looked great and also i do want to give one big compliment to paramount now i didn't i didn't see any other people saying this but for me personally the stream was flawless

like it looked great the entire night I didn't have any hiccups I didn't have any like it didn't crash which happened it seemed like every freaking event with ESPN oh my god I had such a show like the stream was flawed look great like yeah like really no complaints like yeah we're nitpicking to find something

to say about it but like honestly it was it was awesome it looked awesome it felt big the fights were great you know every fight had an emphatic finish like I said you really like Any complaints you're making or, you know, minor complaints, complaints about, you know, a comment or a comment or like you said, these commercials are like we're, that's like we're just like getting down the nitty gritty of it all. But like the actual card was fun. And you had actually texted me after it was the serial gone fight.

And I was like, Matt's still awake. He's still watching. It's still working. Yeah, it's so rare, man. It just meant the energy was just out of this world. And just knowing like everybody in the world right now, stand up and watching this. I don't know if have the numbers come out or anything on the viewership. No, Dana said last night that the numbers were insane.

He said David Ellison, who's the head of Paramount, was there, of course. And he said, he gave Dana a call and said, it's ridiculous. Like, they haven't said the numbers. He said, I want Paramount to put that out. It's kind of take their victory lap on this. But he's like, it was huge. It was huge for them, huge for the sport. So he hasn't said, I think, I imagine today or tomorrow,

here Paramount kind of give us an idea, like, how big it was. But he said, David Ellison, like, called him or text him, like, during the event, and he was freaking out, like, how big the numbers were on Paramount Plus, which, like, I said, credit to them for being able to stream something like that because, like, they stream an NFL game. So obviously, they're, you know, very well aware of, like, big viewership numbers, but you just can't predict, like, is everyone going to tune in? Is nobody going to tune in?

Like, who knows? But he was apparently freaking out. So, hey, good for them. And so, I assume we'll probably get, like, a press release or something, like, today or tomorrow, because after an event, like, that yeah you should take a victory lap yeah yeah yeah yeah oh yeah so i guess you know we got talking about the fights right i mean like you said every fight was was solid man that all good matchups i'll say for me you know it's always easy to say in retrospect right but in hindsight's

2020 but it felt like um again this isn't a complaint but what if it felt like it was pretty obvious who was going to win after you know all the favorites won except for Iliate's Aporia but it was still a phenomenal card like it was still proper matchups you know like like for example like Steve Garcia was looking really good against

Diego Lopez like he didn't belong in there with him you know he had an opportunity to win the fight Diego just fucking bid down his mouthpiece pulled the dog out and you know laying in some shots right and that's how every fight felt where like this is a proper matchup

and we just happen to have the perfect matchups. Again, you got to give credit where credits do man. The UFC knows how to do this shit like nobody. Yeah, I mean, yeah, like, yeah, the favorite, I agree, the favor is all one, but I mean, and even like the gone fight, like

that was really a pick-em. Like, I don't think there was really a favorite. I think that was the closest one of the odds. But like even that, let's be honest, all the momentum was on Alex Pereira. Let's be honest, everyone was talking about him, three-division shant, becoming goat, which was always ridiculous but like the attention was on prayer and gone so I even considered the gone when they're upset because no one was picking him like everyone's like oh prayer well we did but

like everyone's like and I get it prayer is amazing he's an incredible fighter did you pick gone yeah I remember I thought that was going to be I thought that was going to be my surprise pick and then you picked him too so okay oh yes yes I'm okay yeah but uh Pereer got all the and rightfully so I get it he's going up trying to make history and you know do something really special and Pereira is a superstar like He got the biggest ovations the whole week. Like he got bigger, no offense to Ilya to get bigger ovations in Ilya. And Ilya's a star too.

But so like it or not, like the attention was on Pereira and Gonn stole the show, but going out there just absolutely laying waste him in a second round. So, but like you can't say like Kyle Dawkins got knocked out. But no one was saying like it wasn't a good matchup, like where Bo Nichols is at in his career. I mean, he got, he got, you know, dominated and finished two fights earlier by a guy who kind of looks and feels a little bit like Doc. because with Rainier de Ritter, you know, I mean, you can say, I think probably, you know, Derek Lewis, like he clearly looked like he didn't belong in there. And I think Michael Chandler kind of the same thing.

But, you know, like I said, on paper, they weren't, like, uneven matchups. They weren't like, you know, it wasn't like Derek Lewis isn't the guy who has the most knockouts in UFC history. And obviously, he only ended up on the card because Trump wanted him on the card and data made it happen. But, like, well, even like the Lewis fight, I mean, we knew that that was a good possibility. that happening. But anytime you watch a Derek Lewis fight, that's a good possibility of happening. And the whole excitement and fun of watching a Derek Lewis fight is that's what happens until he touches you. And had he touched Josh Hokit, that's probably what would have happened. He just could touch him. Like Hokie, you got to, you know, again, we give credit.

And that was what is fourth UFC fight? Yeah, fourth UFC fights. Against Derek Lucid, that was what is 20, 25th or something, UFC fight? Like, you can't say that's like some sort of mismatch, right? Yeah, 100%. And let's talk about the main event because, listen, we both, I don't want to rehash history, but we both said on the podcast, like, we're picking Ilya, but, and we had this big question mark because Ilya was so confident and so outspoken.

I'm going to knock him out inside two minutes. I'm going to first run knockout. It's going to be a highlight, blah, blah, blah. And the one thing both of us said was no one walks in and walks out of a Justin Gachie fight without feeling like they just went through a car crash. I mean, Kabid and Raghabed-Metov finished him in the second round. He came out and said,

I took more damage in this fight than I ever took before, and he won in the second round. You know, I mean, even, you know, he lost to Charles Oliver, but Charles Oliver got knocked down and nearly finished in the opening round. Destipori the first time around, that was where the comment originally came from.

He's like, yeah, I won, but I feel like I just went to a freaking car crash. Like, I just felt my entire body got battered. And that was our one, like, I don't like that comment because you don't go into a Justin Gachie fight and walk out feeling great. Like you win, but you don't feel like you're like man on the top of the world. And Ilya came out guns blazing. Good first round.

Came out strong out of the gate. But, you know, he hit Justin a few times, but Justin never got rattled or anything. And then obviously that second round, you know, he got him down. He took the mount, tried to go for the arm bar, tried to go for the triangle choke. But Gaiji hung in there. And then talk about night and day in the third round. When Ilya came out kind of hands down, looking a little bit beat up. Obviously, his eye was already kind of banged up.

And you're like, uh-oh, because this is what Justin Gagchi lives for. He's like, oh, you didn't finish me? Now you're fucked. And he went out there and just started putting it on him. And it was the first time since the Jai Herbert fight. And Jai Herbert was like he knocked him down and had him hurt. But that was just like a very frantic pace. Like they were just killing each other.

And then Ilya obviously absolutely torched him. Gachie's like that slow and patient guy. He's like the tortoise and the hair. He's like, I'm just going to keep chipping away, chip it away. And he got busted up. His eyes all banged up. His eyes were closed, cut, bleeding, things we've never really seen for Elia Teporia. And Justin Gates, you made a comment during fight week.

He's like, what happens when you get to the second round and the third round and you haven't finished me? And he'll be like, oh, it's never going to make it that far. That was our concern, dude. I know I know public talk and you're building a fight. I get it. But like, get a little scared when a guy's that confidence. and Gaichi just put it on him. Yeah, that's exactly it.

I got to teut my own horn a little bit, though. You remember the fucking New Year's prediction? Yeah. What did I say? I'll say you'll come back too soon and lose. Come back too soon and lose. If I, if I'm correct, I didn't want to come back this year,

but really it was they're doing the White House. Okay, I'll come back. I mean, you know, I guess that's not factual, but I think that's kind of the vibe, right? Like if it weren't for the White House, I probably would not have fought this year. And I just want to put that out there. We can't forget that, you know.

Not going to make excuses for Elye. Give credit or creditors, dude, Justin Gage, did everything amazing. But it looked to me in it, and it looked to me like it kind of played out in the fight a little bit. Like he came back too soon, you know, like he just wasn't ready mentally for a

Justin Gagee fight. You know, Justin Gage is that guy where you better be fucking mentally ready, bro. You'd better be mentally on point. That's a fact. I mean, Justin's one of the mentally toughest people I think on this planet. I mean,

that's a special person right there, you know, all credit to him. But, you know, Ilya also looked undersized to me. I thought Justin, you know, Justin's not big for that weight and I thought he looked way bigger than Ilya you know so I thought that played a factor too but you know like you said you man you can't you can't fight Justin that way but like and looking back at the picks and being the favorite the way it was like like I think it's all

justified like we seen the Ilya is more skilled right but of course that doesn't tell the whole picture of a fight, just the skill. And Justin knows very well how to, you know, take advantage of that skill deficit and put you into a dog fight. And that's what he did. And then, you know, again, I think with Ilya quitting on the stool, it tells me like his mind was not all there. And I know he went through hell, right? You know, maybe he would have been, had it been 10,000 percent perfection and everything, maybe he still would have quit on the stool. But it told me his mind was not there and um you know so i i say that just because i got even though i i'd pick dillia because that's the paper pick that you have to make skill-wise um you know i'm kind of talking

about myself a little bit too much here but you know i got i got to i got to pump myself up bro because i called it and i took so much hate for that i don't know if you remember that was one of the few ones i post and then i read the comments and and uh you know it was just bash after bash so so i i had The reason I'm bringing it up is because I have to bring that back right now and say, I remember all those bashes, motherfucker, and I called this shit. Yeah, I mean, before, like, I do want to talk more about Ilya, but I do want to give credit to Justin because, I mean, you know, because he did get hit with some shots.

And I agree he did look so much bigger than Ilya in there. And I know, like, Ilya looked smaller compared to Charles Oliva, but Charles is a very tall, lanky, you know, lightweight. It's a little different feel. He did looks, and there were some shots he laid on Gage. Now, granted, Gaci's got an incredible chin. He's always shown in awesome durability. But, like, you're wondering, like, he didn't, you know, that body shot was probably

his best shot of the fight when he dropped him with that body shot. But, like, he took a lot of shots at the jaw and didn't go down. You're like, is this Gaci's chin? Is it illy is a little undersized? Maybe his power isn't translating quite as much, you know what I mean? Because, like it or not, that's a real thing. But Gaci, man, like, he finally achieved his dream. He always wanted to become an undisputed lightweight champion.

He's a two-time interim champion, but that was never good enough for him. He wanted a undisputed champion. And that was like a big thing for Dustin Poria, too. Like he always wanted it, never quite got there. And that was a huge thing for Gaichi. And this was like Justin Gaichi at his absolute best because he got into a dog fight. He's just known for that. He gets these giant wars.

But, you know, that's a 50-50 proposition. Like, you're just begging for something bad to happen. It's happened to him before. I'd look at the Max Holloway fight. Like Max caught him in that last 10 seconds and knocked him out, created one of the most viral moments of all time. But he survived. And when you give him time to survive,

98% of the time, he's going to start putting it on you. And that's just like, it was just ridiculous. Like when he just started hitting it to a board, there was big uppercuts and you see his eyes all messed up and blood. And then he hits him with the, that needed a body right before the end of the fourth round.

I mean, right in the ribs. And Ilya is like stumbling back to his corner, can't quite get on the stool, head down. It was like, whoa. Like this is just not a visual you've ever seen. And, you know, Ily had been, I mean, outside that Jai Herbert fight, he'd been pretty much flawless.

Like, no one really put much on him. You know, Max made it to the third round or whatever, but like Max never really hurt him or anything. Like, he just, you know, did a good job, but never really hurt Tuporia. Like, that was the ultimate Justin Gagee fight. He's like, you're not, you didn't finish me? Well, you're screwed now. And boy, did he prove it last night. I'm curious, Matt, like, you did call it.

Like, maybe Ilya came back too soon, going through that divorce and everything. but in terms of like you know how this sport is like it or not like you know someone coming out of that you wonder like where do they go from here because you'd never seen him get touched never seen him really get hurt you never seen him get dropped never seen him get beat up all those things happen in one fight he didn't just get clipped like just didn't draw a flying knee and catch him like oh man I got caught he got beat up so like if you're illiott to pouria like where do you go for has your that aura of invincibility had got shattered last night mm-hmm And I can tell you right now, that is a potential life-changing fight right there.

Like, he may not come back the same. And I'm not talking about just the brain damage, but the mental damage and the, you know, the confidence, which has always been a huge thing for really, he's so confident and feels so good about everything. And, you know, I think, look, everybody handles everything differently. But that is absolutely the type of fight that could completely change a person for the rest of their life. and only Justin Gage you could do that. You know, he's a fucking dog, man. You got to love it.

You know, I mean, if I'm I'm in his camp, I mean, you go back down. You know, I mean, he was clearly undersized. And Justin's not some gigantic lightweight. I mean, you know, Ilya needs to be fighting guys, his size, his power. Some of those shots he had Justin Gagey with would have knocked out, you know, probably every fucking 45 are on the planet right but but Justin just hanging in there like the man that he is and um you know if I'm I'll go back man you know look you tried to get the um you know the double champ status thing and and you didn't do it that doesn't mean you can't still be a

great champion I agree and yeah like because remember when he fought Volcanowski they looked pretty similar in size remember Volcanozzi went up yeah and had an incredible fight with it was a little Makachab the first time. Great fight. Second fight, not great. I know it was on short notice, but he obviously got brutally knocked out with that head kick and went back down.

There's nothing wrong with that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that if you're just like... And Ilya did. He looked... And you're right. Like, Gaichi's like an average lightweight. And I'm not saying like his skill. I'm saying sizewise he's an average lightweight.

He's not big. He's not small, but he's just kind of like the normal 155er. He looked huge compared to Ilya last night. Like huge. And that, like it or not, that makes a difference. Like that body shot, that dropped him just and said yeah my ribs are hurt my liver's heard like it was a great shot it was a how many times did ilya throw the jab and and uh what's his name gauge he was able to counter

and ilia wasn't able to get out of range fast enough right just yeah gauge you just being that much bigger yeah i mean and like we know how like look at the guy like arman sarukian who is just like a truck like he looks like a brick house i haven't seen him stand next to ilia but you guys feel like he would be you would dwarf ilia in terms of size like if they got in there so i think you're right I know he said it's a tough weight cut and he didn't want to do it anymore. And listen, if I lily stays at 155, I respect to hell out of him. He does have a winner of Charles Oliveira. But I'm kind of with you.

I'm like, dude, if you can get back down, like, because you need to be fighting guys your own size or at least relative because he was never even the biggest featherweight. Like he was incredible featherweight, but he was never the biggest guy fed away. So, you know, and listen, you know, Volcanowski's champ again. I could run that back. And there's a lot of respect between those guys. I know that Alex has said that. You can potentially run that back.

Or, you know, Moversar if he beats Alex. I mean, that would be interesting. Alex, I'm going to, Movsar and I mean, there's, so yeah, I'm kind of with you. And, but you're right. Well, I'll tell you, I could totally see them giving him a rematch with Gagie, too. You know, I don't know if he, if he's a type of guy that has to go get a win to get that rematch, right? Well, Gachie shut it down last night. He said, nope.

Well, Gage doesn't decide either. Yeah, but, I mean, if I'm, I agree with Gaci, though. Like, it wasn't, you know, when you make a guy quit on the stool, you know, your coach is like, no more, no moss. the famous boxing in Nomaz. Yeah, and, you know, like, there's, like, and also as good as Dilley is, he didn't, he never defended the title. I hate these automatic rematches unless it's like an incredible, unless it's like, and yes, that was an epic fight and a great, and a great performance ultimately by both guys,

but, yeah, I don't, like, that's just, you're going up in the weight class, right? You got to go get a win at that weight class. It's just, it's just such a definitive ending, right? Like, it's just like, you know, watching him head down on the stool, bleeding his coach. like we can't go anymore we can't let him go anymore that to me's like you got to recover from that you know you got and to me like if he's going to stay a lightweight he's got

a fight like you know whether it's a patty who's obviously a patty's a huge freaking remember how much better than that's probably the fight to make right yeah or go back to featherway but but you said some this could be a potential life changing fight remember when you are that good and look that dominant and just look like

you're murdering people and then you have that kind of fight and you just get beat up and not saying that anyone else can do that because Justin Gachy is so incredibly special but you just wonder coming back from it like can you mentally come back from that? Do people now approach you in a different

way where they're not scared of you anymore? Like it or not like, remember when Anderson Silva had that air, that awe of invincibility and Chris Wyman kind of cracked the code and knocked him out the way people, and I know Anderson was older but I'm saying the way people looked at them was different because there were guys who openly admitted

I went in there ready to lose to Anderson Silva because I was just basically the guys terrifying. Ilya had a little bit of that going on for him. You know what I mean? Ilya had that like, oh my God, this guy is just a holy terror. And now he got beat the hell up and you wonder are people going to approach him in a slightly different way. We're like, not so you shouldn't fear him or you shouldn't be respected, but like you don't have that same that same trepidation stepping in the cage like, I can't get hit by him. You may say, you know what? Justin took lots of shots and survived. I can go out there just attack this guy.

And when you've got, you know, five inch reach advantage and you're 20 pounds heavier than him on the night of the fight. Maybe that, like I said, that aura of invincibility got shattered a little bit. Yeah, well, there's that part and then just his own mental aura of invincibility, right? I mean, he now knows

that there is a limit to his own abilities, right? He knows that he can be stopped, right? Or, you know, that he can be put to the point where he has to quit on the stool. Now he, his whether, he may not even think about it

consciously. He may be able to brainwash that out of himself but subconsciously somewhere deep in his heart of hearts like he knows you know i mean his soul knows like there is an endpoint here like you're not you're not gonna fight to the death like we all like to say we do right like you that's not actually good you know who you are on the inside and and and that's not a knock on eliot to pour either i mean the fact that he went as far as he did in that fight was pretty fucking impressive you know we all have a breaking point you know you know Say what the fuck you want about it. We all have a fucking breaking point.

You can talk about how you'll fight to the death all you want. You know, there's very few people that are, when I say very few, I mean like one out of a billion at best that actually have that in them. You know, that that whole fight to the death thing is one of the most overspoken things in history. But my point is he now, his soul now knows he has a breaking point. And that could raise some questions. See, when you're in a fight, this is what people that don't fight don't understand is like, it's the ultimate lie detector test. It's the ultimate truth teller when you're in there because your subconscious takes over.

All those things that you've told yourself that your conscious is, you know, you hear, your subconscious has an entire, your soul and your spirit has an entirely different narrative, that you got to prove to it. And when you're in those split seconds, you know, things start changing. And I think, you know, I don't know, I don't know if I'm necessarily articulating that the way that, you know, makes sense to people. But, you know, this is a lot of times when you see the champions like an Anderson Silva or, or, I don't know, other examples. So, you know, where, you know, you lose that first one. you're like, dude, you know, you can sit there and tell yourself all day that you are who you think

you are, but somewhere deep inside you know that you're not. And this is also a different kind of loss. He didn't just get caught. Like, Justin didn't, like, throw a headmaker and catch him. He didn't get him in a guillotine and just catch him. He got beat the hell up for, you know. He said no moss. Yeah, that's a different kind of loss.

It's not the same as just like he got caught and got, you know, got hammered the right hand or got caught a guillotine choke and just, you know, got caught. And that's where sometimes. you know, I say, look, I say it to my fighters sometimes. Sometimes success is the worst thing that can happen to you. Because, you know, we have all this mental imagery of who we say that we are and we look in the mirror and this is who I am and, you know, I'll fight to the death and I'm a killer. I'm invincible.

And then you go out and you have that success and it reinforces that and it reinforces that. And that's why I kind of like Justin Gagey's approach, which, It is a very unique, very unique approach where he's like, man, I'm going to go get my ass kicked, you know, and it's kind of narrative. And I know some fighters personally that do that too, you know, where they're like, man, I'm a fucking loser. I don't have a chance in there. And then they just go in and perform amazingly well. It's like a reverse psychology type thing. And but yeah, when that's taken down and, you know, this is something, you know, I think we always talk about Connor.

So, you know, we'll bring it up with him, right? Like, you know, his body has been through that. His mind has been through that. He knows he can sit there and talk about all the shit he's going to do and, you know, tell himself affirmations in the mirror all fucking day. But the evidence in the subconscious, in the soul, isn't there. Yeah. Real quick, before we move on, Justin Gagey said last night,

he promised his mom he wouldn't make a decision about his career right now because he's very emotional, good or bad. like win or lose he didn't want to make a decision but he he sounded on the post show and everything like he's contemplating his future in terms like he finally achieved his dream he won the end of the disputed title Matt, after watching that kind of fight last night, like we always talk about guys being able to go out on top and we can count on one hand, Khabib and GSP, or pretty much the best examples that guys who were retired on top and his champions.

Should Justin Gates even fight again? Like, he had like the storybook ending last night. And, you know, the White House, which is never going to be done again, beating Iliate Tepori, number two-pound-pound guy in the world, all the little things that Justin hadn't been able to do before. Like, obviously having the title fight with Kabeb and losing, having a title fight with Charles and losing to go out there and have that kind of,

a rocky moment where he just came back, battered the dude, won. And Justin can do whatever the hell he wants. He's like, I want to stick around and fight Armisarukin. I want to stick around and fight this guy. Go for it, man. You've earned it. But if you're Justin Gachie,

is it almost like, yeah, it would kind of make sense. He also got $825,000 bonus last night. Let's not throw that on the old pile as well. But like, if you're Justin Gachie, you have no reason to come. Like, I don't know, man. I don't like calling for retirement,

but I'm almost like, yeah, if you're thinking about it, you couldn't write a. better ending to your story right here. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, it's going to be up to just engage you in his own, you know, goals in this world and

life and sport and all that. And I don't know if he, he's, I don't think he even has kids or anything, right? Nope. Not matter, nothing like that. Yeah, so, you know, he still definitely has a lot to do. So, there are a lot of time to do it, I should say. You know, the, you know, the fact is,

um, it just depends. on whether Justin, how much, you know, he wants to build his legacy now, right? Because going in there and beating Ilya, a 1-45er who was, in my opinion, clearly undersized, come up. And, you know, that's how you win the title. You know, obviously, like, it's a great thing. I mean, you know, he's considered the best in the world right now. But I think, you know, if he cares about his legacy, right, and being, you know, a really great. And to me, I mean, he looked last night like he's at the peak.

of his career. I mean, we've seen an improvement from Justin Gagey throughout his UFC run, you know, particularly from his PFL days, right? Or I guess, World Series days back then. You know, when he came into the UFC, you know, he's really just a brawler that was really tough and took a lot of shots. And we've seen him improve over and over. And it looks to me like he's at the peak right now. I don't know if you get that same feeling, but he looked like he was really peaking in these like the Patty Pimba fight gave me some questions because it didn't look like he was

peaking but you know kind of hindsight's 2020 like he played it pretty smart right and did pretty well but my point is going on a lot longer answer than it need to be probably but look he looks like he's peaking if he wants

to have a legacy of greatness he's got to win some he's got to defend this title a few times he's got to take that risk and Justin Gage is a risk I expect him to do it. He's got to take that risk if he wants a legacy. If he wants to be, you know, if his only goal was be champion, yeah, go retire. Yeah.

But the other part, the last thing I'll say on that is, you know, a lot of times, you know, just putting that retirement talk. The UFC has to love Justin Gagey. They want him in there. He puts that retirement narrative out there. it may be a play to get some more money too, right? Because they'll be like, yeah, we want you. Like, what does it take to get you? Or if he retires, you know, and the UFC's like, man, we need a big fight, you know?

We need somebody. Man, how much could we pay Justin to get him back, right? So, you know, that may play a part. I don't know, though. Yeah, I mean, listen, I mean, like it or not, like Max Holloway goes out there and starts just Connor McGregor in a few weeks, which I expect Max, I'll tell you, right now. Bro, that's way of the fight.

Like, you could run that back. It doesn't make perfect sense because, you know, Max lost all over it. No, but because narratives, you know, like I said, that doesn't really matter. And Gaichi has history with him. Obviously, has that, you know, incredible highlight real moment. He goes out there and beats Connor. I mean, it's got to be Armin, right? I mean, it should be.

It's got to be. It's got to be Armin. It's got to be Armin next. But I'm saying, like, if you're the UFC, you see the money signs rattling around in your head. If Holloway goes out there beats Connor to beats the Brakes off Connor, which you absolutely could do, you're like, hmm, we could do. We could do like into the year, Justin versus Holloway 2. I mean, listen.

Well, even imagine that. Armine should get it. Armine should get. Let me be clear about it. Armand should get it. I'm just saying, if you're the UFC, you see dollar signs if that happens. Well, even imagine, you know, if he's able to go out there and take out Armand. You know, Gage is a risk taker.

And, you know, the UFC's, I think they're kind of cool with whatever, right? But they'll be, we talk about this many times. Do they actually, you know, want people to win? One of the rare cases where they would prefer Justin Gagey to be Armin, right? And Justin Gage goes out there, beats Armin. That sets up a ginormous max fight now. Not that it wouldn't already be really big, but, you know, he's already defended his title now. Now he's really a champion and beating someone like Armin, you know, really solidifies that.

And then you get to go to the max fight. I mean, that's big dollar signs right there. And Justin Gagey becomes, you know, the more, obviously the more times he defends the title, the more superstardom, I guess, you know, that he gets. He's also playing with House Money now. Like, he achieved his dream. Like, he became undisputed champions. Like, now, like, he was like, hey, I want to keep going, but you're going to pay me a

boatload of money. He's playing with House money. Like, he achieved what he wanted. He wanted to become undisputed champion. He had a couple shots out of it came up short. like do your thing man they're like hey we're gonna pay you five million dollars or ten million dollars go out and fight armin great like if he's into it go do it and even if he loses like what does he really lose because like you know that's just you know so yeah i'm with you and like i said

and the likelihood and i think he can beat arman i think he could beat armin like he's got wrestling he's got and obviously armin is a whole other fight on the feet against a guy like gaecchi so you know i don't think that's an unwinn i do feel like also if you're fighting a guy like armin it's not, you know, fighting Max Holloway, your mom might call him and be like, you know, I don't want you to fight that guy again. Like, I care about you. If you're fighting arm and, you know, you're like, okay, you're probably going to be in more of a grappling match. So, okay, mom, don't worry about this one. I got this one. Yeah. The 2006 Chevrolet Equinox, awarded the most dependable compact SUV in the U.S. by J.D. Power is designed for your

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But man, Cyril gone. Like, it's like every, like, because when we think about Cyril, a lot of times we fall back in the, like, he's, you know, he had lost to fight to In Ghana, had lost to fight to John Jones. He's had so many opportunities at titles. It's not done it. You kind of get a little like, how many chances this guy get? Like, come on now.

And Alex was the attention. And I get it. Alex is a superstar, absolutely rightfully so, taking that chance to become a three-division champion, blah, blah, blah. But unbelievable, unbelievable performance with Cyril Gaon to go out there and kind of put it on Alex Pereira. And like the narrative, like I know everyone was obviously upset, and rightfully so with the finger, you know,

the eye pokes on Tom Aspinall and the no contest. And, you know, hey, listen, Gons got to own that, like it or not, what he did intentionally or not, he ended the fight with iPokes. Like it or not, that's what happened. But the narrative is kind of shifted a little bit now where people are like, okay, maybe I'll have. doesn't want to come back because gone because gone did look great early

against Aspinol. He was winning that first round pretty handily and you're like, uh-oh, like this doesn't, Tom is not dominating like he had been up to that point. But gone, man, once again, proven people, and I think my favorite part, I'm certainly not dancing on an honest prayer on it. I don't want to be clear about that.

But I think my favorite part of the whole fight was John Jones putting in that little like five second clip on Instagram him like rolling his eyes and not say, he didn't say a word, he just kind of like reacted and because like everyone was oh Alex is going to be the goat he's the goat he's the goat and I'm just like we obviously completely disagree

with that last week but I laughed at that because John didn't like you know insult Alex he just kind of rolled his eyes all to talk about Alex is going to be the greatest of all time with that one win and and John's like I tapped that guy out in two minutes but anyways he never said that I'm just saying that was a look on his face

but yeah man we got to be careful about these narratives we build some time by the way we didn't build this narrative Dana White built that narrative he's like I get it we talked about. It's promotional talk. But that put a lot on Alice, because then everybody's talking about. Everyone's like, is he to go? Is he not to go? We talked

about it. So, credit to Gond for just going out there. And he looked good in the first round, too. Again, wasn't like he caught him. He did catch him, but it wasn't like it. It wasn't like it. It wasn't like it. It wasn't like he just caught him with a punch. He did good in that first round and then just absolutely laid him out in the second. And, you know, probably could have been stopped a couple seconds

earlier because Alex was just getting battered. But credit to Cyril Gone, man, because that guy was counted out. I pokes, multiple title shots, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he went out there and just beat one of the best fighters ever, maybe, you know, to know, to man, you want to rank him. But Pereira's good. And he went out and beat him on the feet.

Strout struck him. It was a really impressive performance. Yeah, absolutely, man. I mean, you know, God, man, what a odd career he's had. You know, I think this will go down in one of the, in the history books. He's looking back on his career, just like, like, what a, what a fortunate, unfortunate guy. I don't know how to say. You know, this guy just, you know, this sport is all about matchups, right?

Like, it's all about who's in front of you that day. And, you know, when Ghan's got the right guy in front of him, he can do amazing things. And, you know, he lost to John Jones and Francis in Gano. It's like, you know, two of the greatest ever, you know. It's like, what do you do? And he didn't get knocked out by Angano either, right? You know, you got, I think it was a decision, if I remember, right? Like 48, 48, 47 decision.

What ain't that big of a lopsided loss? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and I think there's a lot of, I wouldn't say hate, but, you know, everybody's like, ah, Cyril gone again, you know. But it's like, I thought it was good for him to get to improve. Like, you know, I do fucking belong here, guys. You know, and, but to me, it was, again, Alex Prayer did not look undersized.

Actually, on the tail of tape, they were the, almost, the exact same way. But skeletal, you know, Alex Pryor is able to make 185. Cyril Gahn could not make 185 if his life depended on it. So, you know, it's almost like the Elliott thing where it's like, okay, you tried, that's great. You are not meant for this weight class. Yeah, he looked big, but he also looked a little slower too, which is like you wonder,

because when guys go up from like heavyweight, you're like, okay, they're going to have a speed advantage, you have this, but he looked slow. slower last night. I'm like, I don't know if adding on 50 extra pounds, he weighed 251 from, you know, 205. I don't know that was the best thing for him being honest. Like, I just looked, he looked a little slower, a little more sluggish, you know, not as quite an explosive. And gone, you know, to his credit, is a very incredibly fast, you know, accurate, you know, athletic heavyweight. But yeah, Alex looks slower in there. He looked like he was a little bit more labored in his movement. And, and that's,

that is a bad combination going against a guy like, gone, who's so fast. and also so powerful. And I'll tell you, I might be reading a little bit too much into it, but it looked to me like Surreal Godin was just hungrier too. You know, Alex was maybe a little bit like, maybe a little bit like Ilya, right?

Where a little bit like, you know, all the hype got to him a little bit. And Surreal God just looked hungrier. He looked like he was trying harder, you know, like he wanted it more. You know, and Alex was kind of like, dude, I'm going to land a big shot. at some point and it's like you like you can't rely on that man and and again that's a vibe i got

like i'm not not saying you know i don't want people to take that the wrong way you know like i like i like i know better than them or some shit but you know the that's just what it felt like to me you know surreal looked he looked really good and i think he's got a you know i think he has a good future in this weight or i mean it's his way he has a good future in this division in the next however long he sticks around, especially with John Jones gone. Like, who else could do to him what John Jones did to him?

You know, I think John Jones could probably do it again to him, but, you know, that's John Jones. And also, oh, yeah. Again, that's kind of why I talk about with his legacy. It's kind of a, like, that's always going to be the stain on him. You know, it is, it sucks. Like, I almost feel bad for surreal because it's like that's always going to be the same.

Everybody kind of forgot about that. Gangano loss. So he said it was a close fight and you know you know he was he wasn't you know at the top top top just yet you know what it wasn't all bill yet it was kind of on the way up right and but then the John Jones fight happens and everybody's like you know it makes it makes it a little bit more difficult right because no matter what he does for the rest of his grief he goes undefeated the next 10 fights defends the title beats Tom Aspenal all these things Everybody's going to be like, yeah, but he lost to John Jones in two fucking minutes.

You know what I mean? Yeah. But I think the more surreal does, too. I mean, it just more reinforces how fucking good John is, man. Also, and also, to his credit,

like, let's not end it. He just made the Tom Aspinal rematch that much bigger because when the first fight got made, when the first fight got made, we all kind of had this like collective groan of like, oh, they're making it by default because there's no other choice out there.

It just wasn't like, heavyweight division is not great. No, that's a great point. point, yeah. You know, like, we're all kind of like, oh, Tom's going to go out there and do what Tom does. And, yeah, and then, you know, Gone looked good early, but then the eye poke. And that kind of ruins everything. She's like, oh, man, like, they kind of ruin the fight.

To go out there and have that kind of performance to knock out a legend, like Alex I don't care it was his first fight heavy way. He's a legend. Now, like, I still only, I care who made the comment, one of the Sunfighter made the comment, Tom Aspinel just changed his number. Like, it was kind of funny. But, like, now the narrative is shifted. Like, before we were like, yeah, gone gets another title shot.

we go again, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then he goes in there and looks good, but the ending is what screwed it all up. Because you can say, well, he looked great in the first, like, three minutes, but then the eye poke ended it. Now, doing what he did to prayer, you're like, all right, you know, now, like, this is a much bigger, much better fight. And, and, like, because when Aspinol gone had, we're kind of like, oh, yeah, let's just do that fight in October.

Sure. Let's get to November when Islam's fighting for the double, you go over double champ status. Now we're like, I want to see that rematch. Like, Tom needs to get held, and we want to see that rematch. gone did himself a lot of favors with that performance if he won no matter how he won he was going to get the title shot again but he just made it that much bigger and I think the narrative is shifted now where it's not like oh he's getting it by default no

he needs to be in there with tom aspinall that's the best possible fight heavyweight and then one of those guys can roll on the title until gable stevenson gets it until gable comes in and it's all over for all these motherfuckers and uh you know it just got me thinking about like just how how really good the UFC matchmaking is. Because, you know, there's a lot of, I wouldn't call hate, but, you know, this is a good card. We talked about it.

Like, this is a good card. It's not what we wanted for the UFC White House. But what they just did was they set up, you know, I think they kind of know who's going to win most of the time, right? I mean, it's, it's MMA, so it's always a little 50-50, but, you know, they kind of have an idea. But all the winners are now set up as much, larger stars than they were before.

And so for instance, it's a real gone Tom Espinal. Now it's a way bigger fight than it would have been before. If Alex Pereira had a won, that would have been a ginormous fight. We know that. And this is just the case all the way down the line when you think about every fight on this card. You know, like Rufi, all the people I was hanging out with last night, no one even knew who Rufi was. And they're all like, oh, Michael Chan's fight, it's going to be a war.

And I was like, I don't know. you know, this, there's a chance it's a war, but that's like, you know, Rufi's probably going to smoke this kid, you know, and of course that's what happened. But now, like, everybody knows who Rufi is, you know, and like, this is kind of down the line, right? Like Sean O'Malley did his thing, you know, and, and I think, I think at least us and the know, me and you, we kind of agreed, like, this is kind of a tailor-made fight for Sean O'Malley, right? But he, like, he was already a big, star. Now it was just even a bigger star and had, you know, and actually had to work through,

you know, I guess a touch of adversity on it, right? And I mean, we could go down the line on all these fights and I think it would have a similar thing there. Like the UFC matchmaking is just really, really high level. I don't want to end the show on a down note, but I have to ask this question before we get out of here. Because I was shocked no one asked Dana this last night, because this comes up when these kind of fights happened. No one asked Dana about like, what do you do with Michael Chandler and Derek Lewis two guys who went in there and you obviously Chandler lobby to be on the card he really wanted to be on there and then I mean it looked like a mismatch like Ruffy just I mean Chandler couldn't do anything like he didn't light a punch I don't

think he was a punch that fight he got absolutely dealt and and I mean it was it was almost like there was when the fight was over there was like man I'm kind of feeling bad for my guy Michael Chandler man this is not like he would there's no competition in there like he just got absolutely overwhelmed and then Lewis well I know he got added last man minute, or not last minute, but it got added, you know, late April. So, I mean, he had two months to get ready. It wasn't like he had no time to get ready. But, like, he didn't look good against Waldo, Cortez-Acost.

And then he comes back and, you know, talking about how much he wants to knock out Josh Hogan, blah, blah, blah. And then he looked every bit of being a 41-year-old guy who probably shouldn't be doing this as much longer. And so I'm curious, like, no one asked Dana about that. And I'm sure, you know, Dana didn't run on, you know, dance on anyone's grave, you know, after what it was ultimately a great night. But I'll ask you, Matt Brown, what do you think?

Is it time to have that conversation with Chandler and Lewis? Because they both looked. They just didn't look, like, it just looked bad. Like, you know, Lewis looked so out of sorts and slow, and he got taken down off kind of a, almost like, this is not a knock on Josh Hokel, but kind of a sloppy single leg. He just kind of grabbed the leg, took him down.

Like, he didn't, there was not, like, he didn't, like, he had to blast double him or anything. And then, Roofie's incredible, by the way. And I think, you're right. Like, Rufie became a much bigger star because he beat Michael Chandler. But, like, that wasn't even, like, the Patty fight. where like he just got you know kind of got mulled a little bit on the ground and got taken out i mean he just

looked like he shouldn't have been in there yeah i mean i'll tell you for me um you know if i'm dana white i mean look you got uh derrick lewis is a is a a fun fighter he's a fun guy um you know i think i offered Derek Lewis a job you know but like if Derek Lewis wants to keep fighting I think he'd be totally fine to keep fighting you know he is who he is and he's kind of always been that guy if he lands the big shot he wins if he doesn't you know it's probably not going to win right and that's who he's always been and again I don't think that was any different last night it's just you know guys know that so they're like okay well I'm gonna do everything I can to not let you land that big shot and you know Josh Hokka was totally the matchup-wise just, you know, again,

he's only in his fourth UFC fight, but, you know, he's an athlete. Like, he's got wrestling. He's got speed. You know, that's not the type of guy that Derek Lewis needs to be fighting, right? But I think there's still fun fights to make for Derek Lewis. I think he's still a draw. I wouldn't mind still seeing Derek Lewis. With Michael Chandler, I mean,

Just his whole UFC run hasn't really been anything to of note, right? And the fact that he's even as big of a star as he is in the UFC, look, I like Michael Chandler. I'm not trying to knock him. I'm just looking at objective facts, right? He shouldn't be the star that he is in the UFC. I mean, he's won one, two fights in the UFC. Two and six now.

Two and six lost four and a row. Yeah, two and six. You know, like how are you two and six and, you know, you're as big of a star as him? you know it doesn't really add up and you know he was great in bellator you know he had had the great fight with uh eddie alvarez and um you know we seen there's definitely a lot of potential in him he hasn't reached his potential and um i i don't you know i would not get excited to see him fight again if i'm dana white i either cut him or you know you or tell him look you know you need to retire bro or or just cut him i mean i think he would probably fit into like you know if he wanted to

keep fighting. I think he would probably fit in other organizations as well. Like, I'd like to see him in Bear Knuckle. I'd like to see him, you know, maybe even in the Game Bread, M.A. You know, Bear Knuckles stuff. Like, I think there's fun things for him to do. He's clearly not a UFC level guy, though. At 2 and 6, you just,

you can't do that. And also, I think the reality is like or not, Chandler got to the UFC about five years too late. Like, he got there at like 34 or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, he just, unfortunately, like, he was in Bellator. That's where he made his career. And he did great things, and I'm sure they paid him well, but, like, he got to the UFC about five years too late.

Like, you know, he got in, like, 34, and he'd already, because, you know, he was Belator running. He had already gone through some shit in Bellator. Like, wasn't he, you know, just walked through the competition of Belator. He was, like, 34, whatever, when he came over. Like, that's just late in a career. Now, credit, you know, he did have that great knockout over Dan Hooker, had the great knockout over, you know, Tony Ferguson. But, you know, Tony Ferguson at that point wasn't the Tony Ferguson on top of the world.

Yeah, as to say, the Tony Ferguson knockout is, like, almost irrelevant, right? and the Dan Hooker's a good win at the time. But like that's it. You got one good win. Yeah. And so, yeah, like that was my first thought last night because I love Michael. He's a great dude, man. I've never for many years.

But like it felt like, man, this was just proof. Like I wish you'd gotten to the UFC at 29 and not 34 or whatever. Whatever I knew. It was basically mid-30s. Just a tough thing to do, man. Like I said, and the UFC is the best of the best. And like I said, that's where you sort out the best of the best. Like it or not, that's the reality.

and six four losses in a row you know i mean i guess like you want to give them one more just to like but i'm i'm kind of with you like i think it's time they need to have that conversation when you got well you know b j pin on a i don't know seven eight fight losing streak or whatever a fucking legend who is you know champion back in the day two division two division champion already accomplished so much yeah yeah and you're like okay bro like we want you to retire but if you want to we'll keep giving you like michael chandler hasn't done anything for the ufc Except, I mean, he sold some tickets, right? You know, some paper views and stuff.

But it's like, you know, he hasn't accomplished anything in the UFC. Yeah, he's not coming in. It's like, yeah, like, I get it. And even the Tony Ferguson thing, you're like, that guy, that poor guy had to go through so much trying to get to Khabi fight. I never got it. You almost like, we want to keep giving him chances because, my God, like, he got that poor guy, man. He never got the fight he was supposed to have and never got the chance to fight the guy. Because, you know, at their peak, that would have been such a huge fight.

But, yeah, you're right. And, like I said, Tony went on like an 11 fight, win streak or whatever. He kind of built that goodwill. He did some things. Yeah, Chandler's 2. Which, by the way, did you watch him wrestle over the weekend? I did. I did.

That was kind of fun. It looks so good. About what you'd expect against Tharman. Yeah, but like you're 2 and 6. Your last one was in 20, 23 or 22 or whatever. Like, I hate to have that conversation. You know me. I don't like having that conversation.

But if I'm to UFC, it's like either, you know, say goodbye or retire because we just can't keep doing this. Like, because that was the worst one last night. Like, he got. And I know talk is talk, but, you know, I'm more ready than ever. I'm, you know, this is going to be my show, blah, blah, blah, blah. He said that every time. But if I had at the White House, all those things, he'd lobby me on the car, blah, blah, blah, and it's just like, I don't really want to see the Connor fight now. Like, that, to me is kind of gone.

Not saying he wouldn't, he couldn't win. I think, you know, I don't, I still don't know what we're going to see if Connor actually fights on July 11, by the way. But, like, I don't really have interested in seeing that now. Like, if I'm being honest, like, I'm like, yeah, I don't, he lost four in a row. Like, what are we doing here? Like, you know, like, what, you know, I just, yeah, I'm with you. Like, either walk away or, you know, do something else. Well, that's the thing.

I think there is, like, R-A-F would be a great spot for him. You know, I think there's, like, fun things that Chandler can do. The UFC is, he's clearly not cut out for it. And, you know, at this age, again, when he was 29, maybe he would have been. I mean, clearly he was, right? Like, especially with his wars with Alvarez. Like, clearly he was that guy. but, you know, that time's over, man.

Yeah, it's unfortunate, but it's the reality of it. But overall, man, incredible card, unbelievable card. UFC should take their victory lab. It was awesome to see. I enjoyed the show. You enjoyed the show. We all enjoyed the show. This weekend we do get a great fight at Saki Apex, but we get a great fight.

Manel Kioji Horaguchi. That is a barn burner. I'm like, weirdly, like, I had to like kind of get back in the mode again because we were talking about this car for the past freaking year. finally paid off and did great. Now it's like, oh, we got to turn right around. And, man, like, I kind of feel bad for them because in any other world, this is like one of my favorite fights of the year.

But it's like it's kind of unfortunate they have to follow up to the White House guard. Now, I'll tell you what my, now, Damon, my question for you, but just before we get off the subject, what is Ruffy's sealing? That's my question. Because to me, honestly, that was probably, I know he was going against Michael Chandler. It was kind of a tailor-made matchup. but that was kind of performance of the night for me. I mean, it was flawless.

I mean, he looked brilliant. And every time I've watched him fight, I'm like, this dude is a fucking special guy, man. So I have to ask, what is his ceiling? And, like, would I put him against Justin Gagey tomorrow? I wouldn't, I wouldn't, because I don't think he's quite there yet. You had that one lost to been lost. I said I would if I'm a matchmaker.

but I'm saying like is he at that skill level? I think so. I think the ceiling is higher for him now that he's working with Alexander Volcanozky. Because I think Volk is going to help him a lot in terms like that mentality, that championship mentality. Not nothing against the fighting nerds. I know he had a great team with them. But now, like, I think we saw a difference in like the confidence and the execution of what Rufi did last night working with a guy like Volcanowski. I don't know.

Like, I don't know what the ceiling is. Like, you know, obviously had that one fight against Benoit that did not. He did not look good in that fight, and he got in... But in the Los Angeles, and he's an incredible fighter. And by the way, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. BSD goes out there and lays waste of Patty Pimble in a few weeks. He could absolutely do that. I'm picking that.

Yeah, so, yeah, I don't know. I think, you know, like, I'd like to see him get, like, you know, what I'd love to see, and I don't know if it'll happen because, you know, it's striker versus grappler, but, like, Rufian Oliva, how is that a bad fight? You know, like, Oliver just won, didn't, you know, people were kind of mad because, like, he didn't put on a great fight. And maybe he does the same thing to Rufi, but I'm like, I wouldn't hate that fight. I guess a great fight.

Yeah. Him and Olivera? Yeah. And, you know, you got, I think we probably said this for a while. Like, you know, where's Olivera at career-wise? Like, we keep thinking that, okay, you know, he's going to start going down. Then he shows up like he did on Max. And you're like, okay, well, he's still here.

Yeah. But, you know, when that ends, I mean, it's going to happen sometime. It's going to end, right? It's going to slow down. and that'd be my question, especially fighting a guy like Rufi, but matchup-wise, you know, say they're both at their best, and they come in, that's a fascinating fight. Yeah, I would pay to see that.

And he's also, Rufi's also a very tall, long lightweight. Like he would not. Just like Oliver, yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, yeah, I know it's striker versus grabber, but I don't know. I think that'd be really interesting. Like I think that'd be a fun fight.

And like I said, Olivera has fought and, you know, fought in either beat or been beaten by most of the guys in that top five or whatever. Why not? Like, why not give him just something a little bit new? And also, like you said, Ruby becomes a star, you know? Like, why not Ruby became a bit of a star? Yeah.

And look, can Olivera stop his takedowns? I mean, can Rufi stop Olivera's takedowns? If he can, you know, that's a great fight. I love that fight. Because he's able to beat Olivera. Yeah, you know, he's, again, he already made a lot of new followers last night. Now he goes in and beats Olivera.

You got to start talking title contention there. Yeah, I mean, and also, like I said, he beats Oliveri. Now you're just lining things up. We got Armin waiting. You know, like I said, Max beats Connor. He's right back in the thick of things. It's got to be fucking Armin, bro. I'm going to be so, people got to start, like, protesting, bro.

It's got to be fucking Armin. The other thing is, like I said, I mean, and this all depends on whether, you know, Gaichi wants to keep going or not. I mean, if he decides to retire, hell, you put Armin in there with, you know, I don't know. You could do the, I guess you could do Taborio, though I don't love the idea of putting him back in there on a title fight against an armin on day one. maybe, you know, like I said, maybe recover. But you can do him in Holloway. You could do him in Olavera, whatever. Or, you know, Armin and Max if Max wins.

Yeah, or, you know, so, yeah, I mean, Armand, Armin needs to get. Like, and by the way, Armand's, like, through R-A-F and everything he's doing, he's become a star. Like, he's not the same Armin from, like, two years ago where it was like, oh, he's just going to grapple fuck you into oblivion.

No, like, people love Armin now. So, like, you can't say he's not a star. I can't say it doesn't pull, you know, attraction when he, when he steps in there. Everyone was talking about last night. Like, people were telling about the bet he made and $5.7 million betting on Gayshi or whatever. Like, you know, so Armand's got a name.

Dude, this is like getting ridiculous. Like, Armand needs to get that shot. Yeah, yeah, it's getting ridiculous. And, you know, but when was, God, when was his last fight? I mean, he's doing so much other things. You forget about his fight. Last October, when he beat Hooker, just, you know, kind of late his hooker.

Yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, like, man, it would suck for him to have to wait for Max and Connor, right? if that's who it was. And by the way, and even if Gagy fights again, like, he did just go through a freaking war. Like, give the guy time.

I don't want him coming back in like three months and fighting again. That's my point. Even in that case, I mean, he fights, what, July, August, or probably August, September at the earliest, that's almost a year for Armin. You know, he needs to be in there, man. I mean, if I'm Gaci, I'm probably coming, you know, maybe November, maybe November Madison Square Guard, maybe December end of the year, if he comes back at all. And Armin, like I said, dude, you got to get back in there.

I mean, I know they're still putting this August card together. We've heard all the rumors about, you know, Ian Gary and Islam, but you've got to get back in there. Get in there and get a win. Just kind of remind the world who you are. Don't sit out for a year. I mean, he hasn't sat out for a year competition-wise. He's been wrestling.

He's about to wrestle Kobe Covington in a few weeks, which will be fun. You know, I'm glad he's doing that, but I want to see him fight. So I'm with you. I'm saying that he deserves it. I'm glad that he's staying active in competition, even if it's not fighting, staying active in the wrestling. I mean, look, that is very, meaningful, bro. You get nervous

wrestling too. You know, you still got to be prepared. All the lights are on you, the media, and everything. So, yeah, I'm glad he's doing that. 100%. All right. We're going to have, obviously, a lot more to talk about next week, I'm sure, you know, maybe some fallout. We'll see, obviously, maybe we hear an

announcement from a Lewis or a Chandler, you know, what their future is going to be. Or Gagee. I'm going to keep going, or I'm not going to keep going. That will answer a lot of our questions. We'll have even more to talk about. But Cop and Horiguchi this weekend, that is an incredible main event. Unfortunately, it's at the apex, but is what it is. I think everyone deserves a go home and just enjoy a show kind of after that one. But UFC killed it, man. You have a lot of the White House card. Absolutely. We'll have plenty more to talk about after that next week.

Matt, where can people check you out what you got going on outside the podcast? The Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. I am the immortal on Instagram and Twitter. Absolutely. And always, we want to say thank you to everyone to choose in the show. Make sure you check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify. And of course, over on the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com for Matt Brown. I am Damon Martin. We will see you guys next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider. Thanks for tuning in.

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