MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Raja Jackson Attacking Pro Wrestler, Jake Paul Fighting Tank Davis and More

Episode Date: August 26, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin discuss Raja Jackson, Quinton “Rampage” Jackson’s son, assaulting a pro wrestler during a scripted segment gone wrong. We’ll also discuss Jake Paul’s decision to face Gervonta “Tank” Davis in his next fight as well as Daniel Cormier removing Jon Jones from his ‘Mount Rushmore of MMA’ over past drug test failures and Matt reveals the last time he got nervous meeting another fighter plus much more… Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When I got a great deal on a great gift at Winners, I started wondering, could I get fabulous gifts for everyone on my list? Like this designer fragrance for my daughter. At just $39.99, how could I resist? This luxurious will throw for my sister. This gold watch for my partner? A wooden puzzle for my niece? Leather gloves for my boss?

Ooh, European chocolate for the crossing guard? At these prices, could I find something for everyone at Winners? Stop wondering. Start gifting. Winners, find fabulous for less. Black Friday is here at IKEA, and the clock is ticking on savings you won't want to miss. Join IKEA family for free today and unlock deals on everything from holiday must-haves to cozy at-home essentials, all the little and big things you need to make this season shine. But don't wait.

Like leftovers at midnight, our Black Friday offers won't last. Shop now at IKEA.ca.ca.com slash Black Friday. IKEA, bring home to life. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Back to the fighter versus the writer. I'm Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown and Matt. We are coming off a weekend where we had UFC Shanghai at like 6 o'clock in the morning.

I assume you probably didn't even wake up that early to watch that card. Didn't miss a lot, although we did get some drama before him with Brian Ortega not making weight and having all that debacle. And then this weekend we got Miss Fitzboxing, Darren Till versus Luke Rockold and Tony Ferguson against Salt Poppy. I know you're a big Salt Poppy guy. And so we got kind of a weird weekend of like, and then they're doing the real American freestyle for the first time,

wrestling here in Ohio. They're doing it in Cleveland. A couple events, not a, not a UFC event, though. First off, who the hell is Salt Poppy? He's some social media influencer who crossed over and did boxing. And he's like, six and two. He has a lot of knockouts, but when he's fought like a real guy, he's lost. But, you know, yeah, he's kind of like, kind of,

like the not as good Jake Paul. Like he was just an influencer to decide to try boxing and actually did get a couple pretty nasty knockouts, but then he fought like a real dude and you know, kind of got beat up. So the question is, is Tony Ferguson a real dude? Is he still, is his heart still beating? My opinion, and I mean this with the absolute utmost respect for a guy like Salt Poppy, who right after the story came out, he followed me on Twitter and I appreciated

that. So I don't want to like trash to do because I think. he's like for what it is he's a talented guy like he went from being just like a dude like on social media and learned how to box a little bit and got some knockouts good for him but unless tony ferguson is so completely cooked that he's just like dead he should win this going away like at his worst tony ferguson should win this fight well that's the thing is tony was never a great boxer but he's just so fucking tough you know and the fact that he's still fighting just shows how fucking tough he is right and that's it's like his own blessing and his own curse right like it's not like

he was out there you know being out slicking guys and jabbing and moving his feet and all these things like he would walk forward and take a couple of shots and just throw more than you threw a him yeah he was i mean i think the weird thing about this is like of all the guys who've done the boxing crossover i think tony would probably be pretty low on that list and not because he's not a good fighter he was an incredible fighter but he was like a pretty well-rounded guy like he was a rest of or he was a grappler. He did have decent stand-up at times, but like, you wouldn't, you wouldn't, you wouldn't confuse him with like a striker. Like, he was just a very well-rounded mixed martial artist. And so, like, him doing boxing, I was like, really? Like, that's just an odd,

like, you know, like, that's what I'm saying. Like, he's an Uber, Uber tough guy and, you know, and just constant pressure and fought hard and had tons of funk in them and, you know, scrambling, odd, awkward stuff and just, you know, was there in your face for 25, five minutes if it was the title fighter 15 and a regular fight i mean that's a that's tony so that doesn't go as well in boxing like a more athletic sport where you can't you know there's no grappling no not a lot of clinching or at least you know we know what it is is different yeah it's weird too because like in a in an odd way this is the ultimate prove it fight for tony ferguson which sounds bizarre he lost eight

fights in a row in the ufc but even you know his last couple of fights he got he got out grappled by Patty and he got submitted by Michael Kiesi. He didn't get, you know, he didn't get the absolute stuff and beat out of him. But you're going against a social influencer. On your worst day, Matt, with you with one broken arm, I would pick you to beat this guy.

And obviously, I think you're a better striker to Tony Ferguson, but like, this shouldn't be, in reality terms, even a lesser known striker like Tony should probably walk through a random social media influencer guy and who isn't like Jake Paul

actually been training nonstop for like five years and has millions of dollars in training, whatever. I'm not trying to insults Salt Poppy, but if Tony loses to this guy, dude, you should never contemplate fighting again. Like that should not be in your vocabulary. But if you win, the downside is you win, you're going to think you've got more in you,

and that's going to make you do the next one. And then the next time, maybe they'll match you up with someone who actually can box. And yeah, so it's a weird, it's a weird thing. Yeah, but I'll tell you the fact that he's a social media influence. or like I don't I don't look at that and judge him and be like oh he can't be good at fighting you know what I mean like there's people at my gym that are lawyers and doctors like some of these people are the most like we got this finance guy you know he's like a financial advisor and he's a fucking killer you know I mean like he's really good he's like he's a purple belt and like he smashes a lot of brown blouts and you know occasionally some black belts like you can't judge the book by that cover you know. And especially like the whole like social media influencer Like it has a stigma about it right where you automatically be like oh

He's a fucking nerd who sits behind a computer and doesn't do anything with his life But that's not always the case man I think Jake Paul's kind of prove that to some extent I'm not going to give him too much credit there we know what his career has been But you know you wouldn't even think you got as he could get as far as he did Right with you know beating interstate Like I wouldn't, if you just put social media influencer versus Anderson Silva. Anderson Silva all day long, no matter how old he is, right? 50, 60, I don't give a shit.

But I think he's kind of shown like, you know, that that stigma isn't always true. But this kind of reminds me, this doesn't remind me as much of like a Jake Paul situation as it does. There was this dude, I think his name's Chase DeBoer. He's an influencer boxer now. And he's done a bunch of matches. Like he's not like new it. He's done like 10 matches. And he fought Alan Belcher.

in a boxing match and Alan Belcher just beat the living shit out of them. You know what I mean? So yeah, it's just, I mean, yeah, I agree. Like Alan Belcher is a different dude than, you know, whatever. But yeah, I just, I think, I think that leans more my opinion on this fight than, didn't say Jake Paul. But, you know, we'll see. I guess.

I mean, listen, everyone's got to, you know, everyone's got earn their paycheck and do what they're going to do. And to his credit, Tony was trying to do him, M. I guess, Dylan Danis and GFL fell apart. So, I mean, I guess it's the next best, next best thing. Well, I can tell you if you're an influencer that wants to do boxing. but love Tony Ferson, respect him to death, he's done amazing things, high-level guy. But that's the guy at this point.

That's the guy you picked to do an influencer boxing match against. Probably so. We talked a couple weeks ago about the whole Jake Paul thing, about him fighting Chavez and getting ranked. And you made a pretty compelling case why the ranking was okay. Because when you looked at the guys around him at Cruiserweight, you're like, it's not like these guys are proven veterans with like 30 fights. and when you explain, even though I still don't totally agree with it, I still feel like it was more of a publicity stunt,

when you explained it that way, you look at the guys around, I was like, eh, you're probably right. I just, it still doesn't feel good. But now Jake Paul is fighting Tank Davis. And a boxing match on Netflix. And I said this the other day on Twitter, and I said,

nothing says you're serious about your boxing career and facing a 135-pound fighter in an exhibition bout. And I was like, I don't care that Jake Paul does these. fights. I really don't. Like, I'm cool with him doing these fights. But just stop pretending that you're doing a serious boxing career. Like, this has got, like, Chavez was already kind of bad because Chavez was clearly outsized and not really a cruiser weight and whatever. And I

understand Tate Davis is an incredibly skilled fighter, but he's going to be outweighed by a hundred pounds. All right. At least when Floyd did it with Logan, we all kind of knew what it was. Like, we kind of all, you know, Floyd was retired. It was clearly just a fun exhibition. and they built it up into something fun. Did really well. Like, good for them. Tank Davis is literally the prime of his career right now, supposed to be doing a rematch with Lamont Roach,

and instead he's fighting a guy who's going to be 100 pounds bigger than him. And, I mean, whatever, like taking the paycheck, I don't care. And I have no problem with Jake doing that for the paycheck. But just stop with a serious box. Like, I'm done. I can't, at this point, unless he actually goes out there and fights a real boxer, his size, I'm done. I'm done playing the narrative to be serious about this.

boxing career. When were you ever not done with it? I mean, I just like, he seemed like he was moving a little bit in that direction. Then the Tyson thing happened is like, oh man, like here we go again. And then, you know, coming out of that like Chavez, I was like, eh, Chavez, whatever. But at least Chavez was like, you know, he wasn't, he wasn't the worst thing in the world. Like it wasn't, you know what I mean? Like, it wasn't a total freak show.

This is a total freak show. And it makes no sense whatsoever. You're fighting a guy 100 pounds lighter than you. What are we going to learn? What are we actually learning from this fight? I'll tell you what we're going to learn. If Tank Davis takes it serious, Tank Davis is going to beat his ass.

I just don't know if Tank is going to take it serious. Like, you know, mentally, I don't know how checked out he's been for a while, to be honest. I mean, he's a good enough boxer to, you know, we see what's going on. His personal life. He's talked about retiring. Like, he seems when you follow him on social media or his career or whatever, he seems to not be interested in doing this job and not really enjoying what he's doing.

So I don't know where he's at mentally. But if he's at the top of his game mentally, I mean, he should destroy Jake Paul, like, easily. Like, because, and I said, because Tank has amazing defense, and he's little and he's way faster. Like, and Jake is not good enough to, you know, to catch him. Like, tanks should be able to run circles around him and touch him up.

may or may not knock him out. He's got 100 fucking pounds on him. But he's going to touch him and he's going to hurt him and he should not really get hit much in this fight. And I guess it's maybe the kind of guys like me that were, like it kind of adds a little bit of interest just because I'm like, like, I know what it is. You know, it's entertainment.

But like, it's kind of entertaining, bro. It's a little bit entertaining that he's fighting a really, really good championship level boxer. It's kind of a circus show. I just, like, the size matters, you know, like, Demetri's Johnson is the most, and I know, by the way, I understand. I'm comparing, like, real fight, like, real mixed martial arts to each other. But, like, Demetrius Johnson is one of the most skilled fighters ever, ever in this

sport. But you put them in there against the number 10 ranked heavyweight, and it's not, it's not going to end well, because Demetri's is 120. But that's why it's entertaining, because Jake Paul's, not the number 10. That's true. I mean, the weight doesn't matter.

I mean, the weight does matter, though. He's got it by 100 pounds. I mean, Demetri's Johnson submitted a guy, what, 100 pounds more than him.

I think more than 100 pounds more than him in Jiu-Jitsu, which is probably harder to do than boxing a guy 100 pounds bigger than you, you know, until you get hit, as long as you don't get hit. Like,

it's a little better. But, like, I'm here for the circus, bro. Like, Jake Paul sold me. Like,

Maybe it's the marketing. Maybe it's the bullshit. He sold me, bro. I'm into it. Like, I want to see it now. I mean, the fact of this Tank Davis, I love watching Tank Fight, I want to see him fight now. I'd rather see Jake fight somebody real, just like everybody else.

Like, yeah, fight somebody your size. It's real good, blah, blah, blah. Like, he's trying to sell tickets. He don't give a fuck. He's selling tickets to a circus. And I'm going to the circus, bro. I want to see it. I just like, like, as,

bad as it sounds. I was, I was at least moderately intrigued by the Anthony Joshua thing because oh yeah, Anthony, Anthony Joshua is good, but I also don't know like how far gone he is. Like his last couple of fights have not been great. He got dealt with in his last one with, uh, why am I forgetting his name? Uh, uh, the guy who just fought usick. Yeah, Dubois. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Dubois. He got dealt with by Du Bois. And I was like, uh, because he's like 35, 36, you know, and it's starting to get in that like Deonté Wilder range. it's like, you know, maybe he's just like, so I was at least a little intrigued by that because I'm like, we're really going to know. Like, is Anthony Joshua cooked or is he still got some like, because on a good day, Anthony Joshua should actually murder Jake Paul.

But if this Anthony Joshua is not like the Anthony Joshua of old, like he might not do well. It might not end well for him. So I was intrigued by that. I was intrigued by that a little bit. But like this one, I'm just like, I just, I don't have any desire to. watch a 100 pound dude, like a dude who's with a hundred pound weight advantage to go out there. Because if Tank was, if Tank was Mayweather, where he's at the end of his career and he's just having fun, whatever, you know what I mean? Cool, whatever.

Lamont Roach should get a rematch. Like the guy arguably beat him. Okay, it was a draw. Arguably beat him. And now he's not getting the fight. And it's like, that's what bugs me. Like there's a real fight out there. It's not like Tank Davis doesn't have opponents.

Yeah, but he doesn't have opponents. saying I'm making $50 million. You know what I'm saying? Like, have you watched the fight circus shit that I do over in Thailand? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you love it, right?

It's fucking great, right? It's insane. Yes, it's insane. Jake Paul's the American Fight Circus without the dick kicking. It's fucking great, bro. Like, like, I mean, we just have to see it for what it is. Like, it is a fucking circus. There's nothing legitimate about this match.

Like, if he goes out and knocks out Tank Davis, you know, and we know, because he's going to jump on the ropes and put his arms up and scream like he's a badass. I'm going to be like, look at it. You do have to say something for being able to knock out a guy of tanks caliber. I don't care how big you are. Like, it's a, that is something. But it's, you know, it's a circus, bro.

It's kind of cool, you know? But like to me, I don't know, if you could imagine, like, I don't know, the 1800s. It's like, we're putting the biggest guy against the little guy. little guy, David versus David versus Goliath type match, right? And you're just like, like, dude, it's kind of fascinating, you know? But we just happen to know who these guys are. I think guys like you are probably just kind of sick at Jake's bullshit. And we're like, like, hard, bro.

We want to see some real fighting. I'm like, dude, the circus is fun, man. I mean, I get it. I just, my biggest issue, well, beyond the weight thing, which I think is a problem. But my biggest issue is this is a guy in the prime of his career. Like, I want to see Tank versus Lamont. want to see Tank versus against, you know, whoever, you know, Shakur, Shakur, like, I want to see him in those fights.

I want to, I want to see those fights. And that's what we're not getting here. Like, you know, like, what am I really good? Like, you might be very, you, like, in my opinion, by the way, tank's giving up so much size. I think dick punches should be illegal in this fight, by the way, because he's going to stand about crotch high to Jake Paul. He should be able to, tell me he should be able to dick punch Jake Paul in this fight.

Like, that should be an illegal blow. I would love to see it. He'll belly button punch him, my bet. Why don't know, these boxers? They wear their fucking shorts up to their chest anyway. It's so silly. But like, I don't think you're wrong in thinking that Tank Davis can win this fight. Like, he's that skill.

I just, it bums me out that he's in the prime and we're missing out on six months, whatever the time period it's going to be of him. Like, you know, training camp, they're fighting in, what, November, I think, whatever it is, October, November. So the fight and then, you know, you got to have a couple months to recover, get ready for now. We're basically going to miss six to eight months of Tank Davis's career for him to go fight, fucking Paul versus Lamont Roach or Shakur Steve.

You know, that's what bums me. If he was Floyd, do whatever, man. When Floyd fought Logan, it was dumb. It was stupid, but it was kind of fun. I'm not going to lie. I get where you're going to go from. I just imagine being Jake Paul and kind of strategically planning all this from the beginning, you know, like I'm going to doping everybody into thinking that I'm going

to be a pro boxer. I'm going to go fight fucking washed up MMA fighters until I beat all then. then I'm going to fight championship level boxers that are 100 pounds less than me. And I mean, this is, I don't know, I guess I have a certain level of respect for that level of marketing and strategy. Like, I wouldn't even say it's duping us

other than, like you said, he does talk to talk. It's like in WWE, though. Like he's talking to his talk like he's wanting to be a world champion. He's going to do serious boxing. But it's like WWE. I mean, they say the same kind of, kind of silly shit. And like, I'm here for the circus, bro.

I love it in a way. Like, I just don't want to see him I get hurt, you know. But I don't think he's going to hurt Tank. Like, he should not touch Tank. Tank is so much faster. Tank's going to time one of his punches. And I don't know if he can reach him with an uppercut. But remember when he fought a Leo Santa Cruz and that uppercut from fucking hell?

Like, I see something like that happening. And Jake overextending. And, you know, we know what Jake's going to do. He's going to rush it. He's going to do like, who was it? David Tua would just rush in and just lay on you. I think it was Tua. I might be thinking someone else and just lay on you the whole time.

Of course that's what he's going to do. The Teng knows that. And I think he's going to find his little spots and he's going to hurt Jake pretty bad. Can he knock him out? That would be hilarious. Would it not? And if I'm saying Davis, I embody shot in the shit out of him because you're going to be perfect level.

body shit dude and I mean listen say what you will about tank davis he hits freaking hard like that dude hits like a truck and you might just mess up Jake like you may prevent Jake Paul from having children like that's how much I think he could hurt him to the inside so I mean I just like I said I don't have a problem

with like the A my two biggest problems come down to I just get tired of Jake saying I'm real but you're right it's WVE like he's just doing it you know he's gonna continue to grip just like when he said I'm the best of the world I'm gonna go fight 58 year old Mike Tyson. I think after this fight, he's going to be like, I'm going to fight the best of the world.

He's going to call out, I don't know, let Lennox Lewis to come out of retirement fight him or some shit. Like, it's going to be like that kind of thing. Or a Vanderholyfield or some other random guy that's not fought for 10 years. It'll probably like dig Ali up out of his grave. I fought the best ever. Yeah. So I mean, like that because the reality is, is like people say crazy shit. You know, like Connor McGregor had some people convinced he was going to beat Floyd Mayweather.

that dude, Ronald Rousey had people convinced she beat Kane Velasquez. Yeah, so I mean, people could be convinced of anything. But I guess Jake has just sold the ultimate grift, right? Like, he sold, he's convinced people like, I'm a real boxer. Dude, you're not a real boxer. But I don't know who. I almost like, I don't know who's buying that either, though, right? Like, like, the reason that everybody watches it is because they feel exactly how you're feeling right now, right?

they're like this fucking guy like he's now he's doing this fucking bullshit and i know i'm gonna watch it like it's almost like i'm not dogging you for what you're saying but i was someone was like like don't take this wrong way but like y'all kind of hate yourselves more because you're like like god damn it i'm watching this again yeah you're not wrong i felt that way when he fight tyson though like i hated myself and i did not want to watch it either but i was in there Thailand. It was showing on every TV in fucking Thailand. And everybody that I was with was like, bro, the fight's on. We got to go watch the whole bar stop. Like we had to go to the, a little weed shop down the street because the bar was like so full we couldn't barely

see it in here. And everybody's like, well, we got to go. We got to get a better view. And we went to this weed shop where everybody's like stone like, oh, this is a cool fight, bro. It's, it's one of those moments where you like you get done watching it. You feel like you need to take a shower afterwards you feel dirty for having watched but that's like that's what a circus is right like isn't that like when you go see people taming wild animals to see you're like god i don't want to watch that shit but but i can't keep my eyes off or you see a you know we know the car accident analogy analogy right like it's disgusting or someone dead and their car rolled over 10 times and you just rubber neck the whole fucking way and slow down to five miles an hour and you're like dude why and

why is my eyes over there? Yeah. No, you're not wrong. I just, like I said, my, my, my, like, A, I'm done with like, I mean, Jake can say I'm a real boxer. I'm a real boxer. That's fine. And you're right.

That's on me more than anything. Like, actually, I never, I never bought it, but I just get tired of hearing it. Like, dude, you're not. Like, just stop. Like, this proves it's, it's not, but whatever. But, but my bigger issue is like the Tank Davis thing. Like, dude, you're in the prime of your career. Like, I, and I'm not, not fault you for taking the money.

I just like, there's so many other real fights I'd rather see you in. Like imagine, imagine if we were getting Terrence Crawford, Jake Paul versus Terrence Paul, Terrence Crawford, Canella. Like, would you be a little bummed that that's what we're seeing? Like, maybe you'd be excited to see Terrence Crawford is absolutely obliterate Jake Paul. But I'm saying, like, in terms of, like, actual fights, like, aren't you way more excited for Canello Crawford than you would be for? I mean, all I want to see is Giovante and, and Shakur.

I mean, that's the fight to make. Everybody knows it. But we all just know that it'd probably be the most boring fight ever because both of them take their time and they're really, you know, Shakura's pillow-fisted and, you know, they're very calculated and, you know, but they need to do that fight and they need to make it like 45 rounds, like in the 1900s and let these guys, you know,

solve this puzzle over time and see who's got the endurance and shit. I guess they're not ever going to do that, but maybe that's what I should bring back. Go over to Thailand and start the 45-round boxing matches again. I like it. I like that idea. You mentioned talking about Jake Paul, the whole WWE thing. I wanted to bring this up, even though it's like kind of tangentially related to MMA, but the situation happened over the weekend.

Everyone's talking about us, it's hard to ignore it. Quitting Rampage Jackson's son, Raja Jackson, who is an MMA fighter apparently had one fight lost back in like 20, 23, but he trains, like he trains MMA. And he got involved in like some pro wrestling skit for some organization out in L.A. And I guess the deal was, like, he was supposed to do a run-in and have like a fake altercation, you know, what per wrestling is, like, looks real, but it's not real, and have an altercation with a wrestler, and I guess shit went haywire because they kind of had a little thing earlier in the day, and I guess Raja took it seriously, and it wasn't the guy, there's

video, the guy apologizing, like, he thought they were doing like a skit, and then he didn't know, whatever, anyways, he goes in the ring, you saw the clip, I sent it to you. He runs in the ring, tackles the dude, and just, when he drops him, he slams, it looks like he knocks him out there, but then he just absolutely beats the living shit out of this guy, was unconscious on the ground. And finally the wrestlers pull him off. And now, like, the LAPD's investigating, potentially, you know, filing charges. The wrestling community is really pissed off because, like, this dude just straight up attacked a guy.

And the guy's in the hospital. Apparently, his brother posted today, he's awake and kind of remembers what happened, but, like, he's still hospitalized. So it was serious. Now, the problem I have here, Matt, is, I want you to weigh in on this because you're not a per wrestling guy. You're a fighter. So you understand the other side of this. But when you blur that line, because, like, every. article you read about it is like it was an angle and like I think no one really totally knew for sure

if it was real or not you watched the video you see the dude just laying there unconscious to get absolutely whaled on and bleeding you're like it look pretty damn real but that's the problem with situations like this like it's a pro wrestling angle and and like I think even the wrestlers in that moment were confused are like is he actually hitting him and then they realized oh shit he actually is hitting him and they pulled him off like dude what a cluster fuck what an absolute close or fuck? Yeah, man. I mean, you know, if this was anybody other than

Rampage Jackson's son, I don't think there'd be any empathy here at all, but we all love Rampage and he's the man, you know, and the fact that he's his son, we're all sitting here like, like, bro, what the fuck, you know, and what do we think about this? You know, if it was just anybody else in the world, it'd be like, bro, throw that motherfucker, you know, in the cage and throw the key away, man.

And that's probably what's going to happen to them. Like, you know, we could say they're investigating, like well you don't there's not a lot to investigate like there's a video that shows it pretty goddamn clear you know what we need to investigate here so you know what's he going to get you know I don't know what like attempted murder is but I mean he was fucking knocked out and punching the shit out of him you know I don't know how far they they go in there or what the details are to get that charge aggravated assaults for sure battery you know I mean like it's a felony for sure right

I mean there's there's I don't figure it's any way out of that so you know kind of just is what it is for him now but like what a shitty move man you know like you want to fight the guy fight the guy like dude was like you know watch the video right before the podcast here the dude was like preparing for a wrestling style take a pro wrestling style takedown

and motherfucker slammed him on his head like you know dude's lucky that you know like you said he's hospitalized but man he's lucky that that's all that happened you know it uh this is actually one area for once on this podcast when it comes to something we're talking about i actually have more experience than you because i trained as a pro wrestler i was in pro wrestling for a few years down in Cincinnati and uh there's there's a concept in wrestling where like what's called a stiff shot like if somebody hit you with something and you kind of get them back in the match like they hit you a little too hard and you kind of hit him back a little bit but the reality is the reality is that

is when you're a wrestler, you're always got to be protective of each other. Because ultimately, it's a performative athletic event, but you don't want to hurt each other because if you hurt your guy, he's going to be able to hurt you back, and you don't want that to start because then it just gets ugly. Like, it's happened where guys have just gotten too stiff with each other and, like, people get punched and shit, and it's not good. But the reality is when you're in a match like that or when you're in any kind of pro wrestling spot, you're looking out for your guy.

Like, I could, Matt, if you allowed me, I could body slam Matt Brown. I would still, like when you learn how to do a body slam, you do it in a way to where you protect the guy on the way down. Like you're literally told to like cradle him so when he hits the ground, you're not just slamming him on his head. You're slamming on his back and you're supposed to take the brunt of the enforce on your back. It looks cool, but you're not really in any danger of getting hurt.

You know what I mean? Like it's all performative, you know, theater. And when one guy is like, okay, we're going to have a skit. And the other guy is like, I'm going to beat the shit out of you. That's not a fight. like that's not fair and I don't care like they're saying he's an even like he has a trained fighter yes but like that that would be like that would be like me saying okay me and you are going to put on a skit mat I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna act like I'm gonna attack you and you're like okay and I come and I just start fucking punching you now in reality you would turn around just kick the living shit out of me but I'm just saying like in that moment you'd probably be shocked like what are you doing like what's going on here why are you literally punching me and that's like imagine you're in that dude's like because he's a big guy when that dude picks him up and he's a big guy when that dude picks him up and If he's really fighting, he could probably, I'm not saying he would have fought his way out of it,

but he would have, like, resisted. You can tell he didn't resist. He got picked up, and he's just like, okay, here we go. And then, boom, he just gets dropped on his head and then just gets wailed on. Yeah, like, basically, like rampage style, right? Like, yeah, what fucked up situation, man,

like, if you're a Raja, like, you know you're on camera, too. like right i mean he's got to know like there's people videotaping this like i'm in a pro wrestling match we're gonna fight the guy at least fight him off camera you know and fight him like a fucking man you know so i don't respect that man but okay is what it is i guess you know again we all love rampage you know like he's one of the coolest dudes ever man i've been on his podcast and you know i was on the show with him hung out with him a few times like he's a fucking great dude man and I'll take it as something he would ever do.

So I don't know what's going on with his son there. I don't even know. Do you know what the altercation was originally? Like I don't like. So what happened when I'm just only judging my video and what people are posted online. So don't take this as like testament. But what exactly? So apparently they met and there was worried about them doing some sort of like

skit later that night. And so people were filming them. And so the pro wrestler who got beat up later that night, his name is Psycho Stu. Is his name, like his pro wrestling name. He's actually a veteran. I think what everyone's freaking out about this was is he's a military veteran who got involved in pro wrestling

to help him deal with his PTSD. So everyone's like, oh, like, yeah. So earlier in the day they got into a skit and he hit him with a beer can, but he did like the pro wrestling thing where he put his hand up so the beer can hit his hand and it kind of explodes. So it looked like he hit him, but really it just hit his own hand. And afterwards, like, I guess Rajah was like not sure like what like what they were doing.

He thought it was like real. And so like they, there's video of them talking and Stu like apologizing. to him. He's like, oh, I didn't know. I thought you knew, like, we were playing around. It was setting up for later, whatever. And then there's another video where the guy tells Raja, like, you get your payback in the ring. And, like, you'll get him back. And I guess he took it seriously to get him back. And so he literally went out there and tackled him to beat the shit out of him. And I know Rampage put a statement out there basically saying, like, I'm not absolving my son of what he did. But like, he shouldn't have been in there.

He should have never done. This should have never happened. He just had a concussion in training like a week ago or two weeks ago. Like he was in no place to be actually in physical contact to begin with. And this is pro wrestling. It's not fighting. And like, you know, it shouldn't have it. And like my, I'm not certainly not absolving Raja Jackson for his action. But if you're the promoters, how stupid are you?

Like, how dumb are you to put yourselves in this position? Like, what publicity? Like, you just, I heard a rumor like these guys who run this promotion, one of them's a former a WWE guy. They had like some sort of developmental contract with WWE. Like they could send their guys to like try out for WWE. And I guess they're like, DVD's like re-looking over and like maybe we don't want to be in business with

these guys. Like think about how bad you just fucked your business. Try to make some viral spot and like it's Rampage Jackson's son. And then everything goes haywire and goes wrong. Like if the guy's not trained, he has no idea what he's doing. And it's not, it certainly certainly doesn't seem like it was well orchestrated. Why are you doing it? Like why are you even putting yourself?

Because when you watch that spot, you watched it. The wrestlers are kind of like, they're like confused. You can see, like they try to pull them off at first, like, in a per wrestling way. And then they literally have to drag him off because he just keeps punching him. Yeah. Wow. What a fucking mess, huh? Yeah.

Hopefully the guy's all right, man. That's about all you can save at the end of the day, right? Hopefully the guy just heals up and, you know, with already with some PTSD or being a veteran and everything, man. you know, just hope that the guy turns out okay, man. It seems some positive energy and hope for the best. That's about the motion you say about it. Other than that, you know, getting love and rampage, but, you know, hopefully justice is done.

And his son gets what he deserves. There's got to be repercussions, right? Like, I'm not, I'm not saying. Like, and what's funny is Sean Strickland, did you, I assume you didn't see it. Sean Strickland put out of thing earlier, very reasonable for Sean Strickland. I was kind of shocked.

He actually said, I hope he doesn't go to prison because he's like, I was in a situation where I was up for a couple of assaults and a guy defended me, a lawyer defended me, and got me like probation, got me rehabilitation. And he's like, I don't know what would have happened to me had I gone to jail. I feel like I probably would be dead now. Like, I probably would have gone worse. Because generally, a lot of times when you go to jail, things don't go great. You know, you kind of get drawn in deeper. And he's like, I needed the help. And he's like, I got the help I needed and I turned my life around.

He's like, I kind of hope that's what happens to this kid. The only difference is with this kid. kid, it's not like he's in a situation where he's like, he did this as like, you know, he got in trouble because he's on from the wrong side of the tracks or he was like, you know, stealing when he was trying to, you know, steal drugs, he was broly. He's rampage his son. It's not like he's wanting for, like, you know, it's like he's in a bad position. It seemed like he got mad that he got in this, in this situation, a pro wrestling skit,

and it just went haywire. Like, I don't have a lot of sympathy for him in this situation. No, not a lot. is Sean referring to when he did the jump in the cage with uh no no he's talking he's talking like when he's younger like when he was a kid like when he got like an actual assault like he got the help that he did that he needed like the motherfucker's crazy still like what help did they do for him but well okay imagine Sean is like 11 imagine him on like 22 like that's i guess that's the like they ratcheted him down to 11 level of crazy i guess maybe i don't know

yeah i don't know man but I don't really, I don't agree with Sean on that at all. You know, like the dude doesn't, like it'd be one thing, you know, if like they got in a fight and he fucked him up and, you know, hurt him bad, right? But like, the dude was defenseless and then knocked out. Like, fuck him. Yeah.

I imagine, and I know this isn't pro wrestling, but I'm trying to relate it back to fighting. Like, you know, and I've seen it in gyms, I've been in gyms where like sparring gets a little too real, guys get a little too rambunctious yeah but like i'd imagine like could i imagine what would happen if one of your guys tackled another guy and he was knocked down he just kept punching him like you would probably lose your shit like that you don't do that i mean not with that but like if they were like you know i don't know place like drilling moitai and someone just shot in and took

him down and then knocked him out and they kept punch him like they'd be more akin to something like that and i'd be like no bro like i'm like i'm a punch you once get out my gym i'm you know deal with the police. Yeah, it's just ugly, man. It's ugly. You're right. Like, the only reason we're talking about this is because it's Rampage's son. I mean, you know, I never even heard of Roger Jackson before about 48 hours ago.

Didn't even know he had, I mean, I know he has kids, but I didn't know this was his son. Like, everyone's like, oh, it's Rampage Jackson's son. Okay, that's news to me. I didn't know he was before two days ago. And that's why we all care. If this was just some random pro-resting incident, it would get headlines. It would certainly get headlines when, like, a real fight broke out, but, like, it wouldn't be to this extent. but as much as we all love Rampage and I've always had a good relationship with Rampage,

good dude, funny dude, cracks me up whenever I'm around him. You can't do this. You just can't. You can't do it, man. Like, you can't have a whole lot of sympathy when you do something. And the only guy that should not be saying, fuck him is Rampage, right? Because he's the son.

And he's the one that should be saying, you know, can we just give him some help or something, you know, try to stick up for him. But everybody else, I mean, we have no reason to have any sympathy for that kind of behavior. Hi, I'm Sophia Loper Carroll, host of the Before the Chorus podcast. We dive into the life experiences behind the music we love.

Artists of all genres are welcome. And I've been joined by some pretty amazing folks like Glass Animals. I guess that was the idea was to try something personal and see what happened. And Japanese breakfast. I thought that the most surprising thing I could offer was an album about joy. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, and remember, so much happens before the chorus. With Instacard,

You get groceries that over-deliver so you can over-share your preferences. Want russet potatoes with no brown spots? You got it. Want turnips that look light but feel heavy? Easy. Want honey-crisp apples that are firm, green, and definitely not Macintosh like last year when you lost the fall bake-off to perfect Penelope Johnson. Okay, a bit TMI, but we're here for it.

So download the app today and get zero delivery fees on your first three orders. Instacard. Groceries that over-deliver. Service fees exclusions in terms apply. Yeah, moving back in MMA real quick before we get out of here, Matt. I wanted to have this conversation because you brought this up a lot on this show.

And the reason I'm bringing this up now is because once again, Daniel Cormey and John Jones are going ahead and about comments. These two are going to be attached to each other from now until a turn. They're going to be 90 years old walkers talking shit to each other. But Daniel Cormey made his Mount Rush War of MMA.

And I didn't hear the exact list, but he didn't include John Jones. And the reason why is because he said John Jones did steroids. And of course, John came right back at him. and said, you know, I live in your head and refree. I can't read the exact statement he made, but long story short, like, you know, I did it all clean,

I did it all, and it's funny, I was watching the clip of D.C. talking to Chelsana, and we know Chal Sana's got history, and Chelle, recently Brian Stan came back and did a one-time, like, way-in show at the UFC. He's not back, by the way. I talked to Brian. I was super happy to see him back. Brian Stans

one of the best dudes of his business, but he was just, timing worked out. He was able to do an appearance, but he's not coming back, unfortunately. And Chell said on the show, he apologized to Brian Stan because Chale beat Brian in a fight in the UFC and he's like I was juicing and he's like I apologize to Brian's like I apologize to Brian's like dude it's cool they apologize well good but like Chale's like I know I was cheating I know I did the wrong thing and he said that the fact that John gets so bent out of shape like this usually shows like that it was bad like you know what I mean like because like now you brought it up many time the reason I bring this up to you man because we've talked many times this show we call John Jones the Goat's greatest all the time. And every time you say it, and you're right,

I'm not saying you're wrong, you're right, you're like, your argument would be the steroids. You always bring that up because it's a valid argument. So, where do you follow? Like, how much should we hold it against John Jones or anybody? Anderson's silver, like anybody who's, because Anderson's test deposit, it's not like he hasn't. How much should we hold it against John Jones that he does have that issue on his record?

Like, does that negate him? Should it negate him? Or, like, I don't think DC. he's wrong. He's allowed to have that opinion. No, I mean, I think, okay, so my two sense is realistically, no, that should not negate him because vast majority of the guys that he's competing against are doing the same shit. You know, the whole USADA or what is it now, whatever drug testing have now,

world water, whatever the fuck it is. Yeah. Like, the whole thing is a cat and mouse game. If you have the money, like you can beat it, right? That's pretty much in every sport. you know, I mean, like Lance Armstrong is definitely the greatest biker ever, right? And he never tested positive. So it's like, are you going to say he's not?

And he's going against guys that were. It's just like, so I think it's a little bit personal. You know what I mean? If you believe that the USADA and the drug test, that that's real and that it's actually stopping people, then, yeah, you could say, okay, John Jones should not be the greatest or on Mount Rushmore or whatever because of that specific incident or multiple incidents for John Jones, I guess.

But if you look at it realistically, like we know, like all these, the vast majority are doing it if they're, if they can afford to do it, and they have the means to do it. There was like a study somewhere sometime they were talking to Olympic athletes and they were like, okay, if I gave you this pill and you would win the gold medal, like you knew for a fact, you'd win the gold medal with this pill,

but you also knew for a fact that you would die like next year or next week or some shit like that, would you still take the pill? And everybody was like, yeah, there was something like 80 or 90% of them that said, yeah, fuck yeah, I'd take the pill, right? Like that's our whole life, our whole identity. is fighting. If you can take something that's going to maximize that,

the vast majority of people will do it. There are ones that wouldn't, like I think John Fitch never did. Like I never did. You know, I think that there are exceptions to that rule. I wouldn't say DC necessarily did. Maybe, though, who knows? Doesn't look like it, right?

But, you know, there are exceptions. exceptions, but the largest majority of people would do it. And until you're in that situation, like, don't say that you wouldn't either, right? Like, that's, you know, that's, if you, if you said that on Twitter,

you'll get a thousand comments, like, I wouldn't fucking do it. It's like, yeah, because you're so fucking moral superior to everyone, right? Like, you're so, you're the righteous, special motherfucker. So, no, so I think if, I always say that because, like, you know, you do have

look past it because it is a positive drug test it's not you know a question of whether he did or did not right we we basically know he did something so you know i think that's all it comes down to like you know it's a kind of a personal view on how you view all those things are you going to look at it realistically and be like yeah okay everybody's doing it and he beat you know the largest majority of the guys that he beat were probably doing shit too right he just did it better right or, you know, if you want to look at the facts of the positive drug test, I understand that side too. So I think there's an argument both ways. It's funny because, and I've said on this show, I consider John Jones to be the greatest of all time.

And I've come around to the way of thinking of like, kind of like what you're saying, like the Nick Diaz thing, everyone's on steroids. Like I've kind of come around the way of thinking, like there's probably a good chance that at least 50% of the guys he was fighting were. doing something, you know what I mean? And you can say like the supplement industry is so out there now, like what's legal? Like, you know, maybe you had better creatine than that guy. I don't know. Whatever supplements are maybe you had better supplements.

You had better training. You had more money. So you had more accessibility to better training. There's always going to be advantages. Like there's always going to and John Jones in his case, he's just physically more gifted than a lot of guys. You can't be a 6'4 massive dude and still be a light heavyweight and not like with the biggest reach in

MMA history, whatever it is. Like there are physical advantage of John Jones had. But I've kind of come to the point where I'm like, I just, I kind of come to the Nick Diaz way of thing. Like everyone's on something. So, you know, John just is better guy. Because you could put, you could put a less skilled guy on steroids. He still wouldn't beat John Jones.

Like, I know skill-wise, John Jones is still going to fuck that guy up. But on the flip side, I do get it. And I think if you're going to, like you always say, if you're going to put an asterisk next to John Jones' name, it's because of the steroids thing. And as you said, he doesn't have to admit. He never did. But he did something. You don't accidentally get shit in your system.

you know, because you ate a candy bar. Like, that doesn't happen. Like, it just doesn't happen anyway. So something, maybe it wasn't a tainted supplement. I don't know. But there was something in your body that had illegal substance and you got busted for it. And I think in D.C.'s case, like, he fought him

and got knocked out by him on the fight he got busted. So D.C. is absolutely right in saying, like, he doesn't, he got, he was the victim of a guy who was on something. It tested positive. They overturned. You don't overturn a result if the guy's innocent. They wouldn't take that away from him and say, oh, no, no, you're good, John. You're cool.

No, they overturned the result, took the win away from, took his win bonus, whatever it was, because he testified positive. So I guess my point is, D.C's absolutely got every right to feel the way he feels. And it's just like when I say John Jones is the greatest and people argue with me and say he's on steroids, you're allowed to have that argument. I don't agree with it. I'm like, you know what? Half the guys he fought are probably on something, too. But you're allowed to say that. You're allowed to have that opinion, especially if you're Daniel Corbynia.

So I don't think it's sour grapes. And I don't think it's like... I agree. And look, he also did that during the TRT era. Yeah. Right? Like John Jones was dominant here by during the TRT era. Like the Vitor, you know, at 2000 level test levels.

You know, he did it during that era. So like, you know, we could say almost factually that he was fighting guys that were on steroids. So the fact that he did him, it just, again, I think it's just a personal opinion, like, whether you want to take that into account or not. In terms of accomplishments, I mean, you can't say that he wasn't the best ever. I mean, it's just a difficult argument to make anything else, right? And but when you start getting into, like, who did steroids and who didn't, like, it's basically all opinion at that point. Yeah, I mean, other than the fact that, like, you know, if you just want to talk about John Jones and Anderson Silva,

okay, they tested positive. Okay, so that's an easy argument. But, I mean, you could talk about GSP, you know? Like, there's a lot of opinions that he was on shit, you know? Excuse me. You could take just about all of the guys in that go argument and be like, and it's an opinion on whether they were on shit or not. So, but speaking of creatine, I never told you I have a creatine company now, too,

Vitifuel, V-I-T-A-P-H-U-E-L. So shameless plug when we're talking about creatine, you got to check it out. The good creatine without the steroids in it. No steroids in it, but it's pretty comparable to steroids in it. Like creatine is some pretty fucking powerful shit, most research supplement ever. but and every fighter's on creotene too so uh you know it's very necessary um with that said though like again it just comes down to opinions and and the the goat argument or mount rushmore whatever like there's no reason to have sour grapes about it because like it's always going to be opinion thing

even if there was no steroid test like it would still be an opinion thing like i think there's a great argument that demetrius johnson did better things than uh john jones did like those way that he won and some of the things that he did and the skills that he showed that he displayed on a regular basis in all areas of martial arts. I think there's a strong argument for John Jones on all that stuff too, right? Because he dominated some motherfuckers. But, you know, the point is, like, it's basically opinions at that point anyway. I know it.

I think what the crazy thing about this is, like, John shows how much it bugs him when he responds. Yeah. And I know it's D.C., and then they got a rivalry and whatever, but, like, D.C.'s job is literally talk about the sport now. Like, that's literally what he's getting paid to do every single day or every single week. YouTube, ESPN, whatever, he's getting paid to do it. And when they say Mount Rushmore and they say, why isn't John Jones on your Mount Rushmore?

And he explains it. If it didn't bother John Jones, he would just brush it all of a sudden, I'll go, like, I know I'm the goat. Like, who cares what Daniel Cormey says? I beat him twice. Like, who cares? But the fact that he always responds, like, when he says, I'm living in your head, rent, free or whatever.

I'm like, I don't know that's totally true, John. Like the fact that the DC can say something like that and it bugs you that much, do you have to put out this giant long statement of like, you know, I did this, I did it all natural, blah, blah, blah. Like, I wonder who's actually living and who's head rate free because like if it really didn't bother, if you really truly believe you're the goat and you don't care. Like, who would care? Like, why would you?

Like, people should be able to see through that because you and DC were rivals. Like, if that's the case, you'd be like, that's just my rival who lost to me, just can't handle the loss. But the fact that John reacts every single time. and puts out statements and shit. I'm just like, I guess it does bug you. That was kind of chill son's point.

He's like, clearly it bugs him. Like, he talks about, he did Coke before he fought Daniel Corby the first time, like almost proudly. He's like, I did Coke before I beat you. Like,

doesn't care about that. But you bring up steroids. You bring up, like, actual cheating. He fucking flips out. So in my, like, I'm on the side of John Jones

Jones is the greatest of all time. I, the steroid stuff does, I'm choosing, in my opinion, to ignore it. But I also understand it's real.

Like, I'm not denying that it didn't happen. I'm just saying it doesn't negate my opinion that he's the best of all time. Gays of all time. But D.C.'s a lot to have that opinion. I can't help but wonder, like, the fact that it bothers John so much to these being questioned like that,

that kind of shows you're, kind of shows you, you know, where we're coming from. Like, if you didn't react, you didn't care. John has to respond something, though, right? Like, he can't just let D.C. say that shit and not respond anything at all because, like, you know, the other part is, like, you know,

John helps DC get paid more to be talking about UFC, you know? The fact every time DC says something and John responds, like, of course, the fucking UFC loves that shit. They're like, hell yeah, just keep talking about them, DC. So it just, you know, gets more engagement and more people interested in that conversation, the same conversation that we're having right here. That's what everybody gets interested in. But the, yeah, it's just an opinion thing in the end, right? like there's no right or wrong like there is no such thing as the greatest ever right there's no

such you know like that's why like my mount rushmore i've said this on twitter and said a million times like to me the mount rushmore should be the most influential you know the the pioneers right like you cannot have a mount rushmore without waste gracy you just can't like that is the fucking ufc baby you know like he's He's the guy, right? You can't have it without Rhonda Rousey. You know, she was the girl of Hoyst Gracie. I think you could debate a lot on the other two.

Yeah, I mean, and the reality, like, you're right, it's opinion. Like, there's no metric. You know what I mean? There's no metric. Like, did Demetius Johnson defended his title 11 times? Is that the metric? Is it John Jones having all these wins over former champions and winning 18 or 19 title fights, whatever the ridiculous number is?

Is that metric? is it, you know, is it George St. Pierre with nine title defenses and what I would believe has always been the deepest division? I think Walter White's always been, you know, arguably the best division. I know lightweight's great and I think, you know, Bantamweight's great right now, but I think year over year, Walter Wade has been the best division in the sport. Is it him? Because he did dominate the best division in the sport, guys who I think probably could have been champions, didn't because George was there. So, like, what metric are you judging by? Like, you know, there is no metric. That's the problem.

Like, that's why I said it's all opinion. And if you want to eliminate him for steroids, you're allowed to do that. You're not allowed. You're not disallowed to do it. Exactly. You should be allowed to do it. And who's on your Mount Rushmore then, Damon? My Mount Rushmore would be John Jones, George St. Pierre, Demetrius Johnson,

and probably if I had to really think about it right now. God, the four spots, probably the toughest one. Maybe just for pure dominance, Khabib, because the guy barely ever lost a round. But, like, his career ended up. early so it's kind of tough to put it on there so you didn't buy into my argument at all that's what i said it's all opinion though you're not wrong now now if you said who are the most influential if you switch that up and that's that's the difference i would say hoist i would say ronda

i would say uh okay connor probably connor i mean Connor got a lot of people in the sport and then i mean i think george probably still just because when he was at his peak man he was so big so influential. Like he was one of the few guys who was like a homegrown star. Like he really became like he was a I think people forget like how big George was in his heyday. Like George was a massive, massive draw, massive star. So probably George like honestly like George because Canada like dude, I went to that show in Montreal when he fought Matt Sarah. Holy shit. Like it was like the entire country came out for George for George St. Peter. So yeah. So you got you got my three there. And again for me, Mount Rushmore means most influential. Like there's no such thing as greatest or or

anything like that. Like it's the most influential. But number four, the only thing I debate, like, I think it's very debatable who's number four. I think GSP's a legitimate option. I think Chuck Liddell is a legitimate option. I think Couture is a legitimate option. I think Bador is a very good option.

I think you could possibly even go as far as like Sakharaba. You know, like pride was huge back in the day, right? And a lot part because of Sakharaba. and Fador. So, you know, I think both of those are very, very strong options. And I think Chuck Liddell influenced, that might be a little bit of bias because, like, his prime was like when I was kind of getting into the sport really heavily, you know, in the early 2000s. And I was like, so I don't know if that's just me feeling that way, but I felt like he had a huge, huge influence, you know, on just, even on the mainstream, right? Like, he,

I think he was, to me, kind of the first guy who started crossing over a little bit mainstream, like going on the late night show, maybe drank a little too much NyQuil on the morning show. But he was like the first guy where everybody was like, dude, I like that guy. Like I relate to him. Like he's my fucking kind of guy. You know, like I want to have a beer with Chuck Lidale. Right. Like that's where, you know, the sport really started taking off.

And then lastly, I wouldn't even. I wouldn't discount putting Forrest Griffin on there either, only because of the ultimate fighter finale. Yeah. And he won, you know, so you kind of got to put, you know, but, you know, I think there's good arguments for all of those. My personal pick could probably be Fador, but, you know, I think all the arguments are good. Are we talking fighters or are we talking MMA?

Because we're just talking MMA, Dana White probably deserves this spot on that. It's like. Yeah, fair. Yeah. I mean, I'm just saying, like, not enough of fighters, like just MMA and generally, where does he not fit on that list? Yeah, you're right, because you really were saying Mount Rushmore of MMA, right? Yeah. So if you say of MMA, I think Dana's got to get the fourth spot.

Yeah, I mean, thinking about the influence he's had on the sport, you know, for better or worse, I'm not saying it's all been good, but can't deny what his influence has done to the sport. I mean, you could argue Dana White is maybe the second biggest star ever besides Connor. like, you know, in terms of people knowing, everyone knows Dana. I would argue Dana's probably a bigger star than Connor. Probably now, like, probably, I'm telling you, like, in his moment, like, you know, when he's like 2016, we're going into that Mayweather fight, Connor was Connor. But now, like, everyone knows Dana. He's the president's best friend for Christ's sake.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, he's probably more known around the world than Connor and probably more influential and definitely more influential. Oh, 100%. I'm just saying, if you're just talking to them and you're not saying fighter specific, how do you not put Dane on that list? I guess what always shocks me is like no one ever puts Fador on that list. Yeah.

Like I think it's a little bit of recency bias. Like you remember during the Pride days, Fadour was the fucking king. Like there was like he was the invincible king. Like nobody could touch him. And he was the greatest thing we'd ever seen. And of course, got knocked down eventually and, you know, became a little humanized later on his career.

But early on, I mean, he was, and in Japan, I mean, he was as big of a star as you can get, you know, and maybe, you know, Russia also. I, like, because I've been a journalist so long that it's hard for me to quantify, like the fights I've been most excited about because when you're covering it, your dad, the events is a little different. Like, I was at Connor Diaz, too in Vegas, and that's, like, still my favorite fight I've ever been to personally just because it was so fun and the magnitude was there, the

it was just such an electric event. But if I was going to say, like, the fight I was most intest, like, I stayed up to watch, like, I was literally on pins and needles waiting for it. It was fade or crow cop. I was like on, I was like, on pins and needles, like staying up all night, jacked up on caffeine, just waiting for that fight.

I don't know if ever, I don't ever been more excited for an MMA fight than I was because I was just like, I cannot wait to fade or fight crow cop. Same. And it lived up to the hype too. like it was a hell of a fight. It was a great fight. Great fight.

And I was the same way. Stayed up late. I had to get up early for work the next morning. Stayed up late anyway. Watch the fight and was just on fucking edge the whole night. And the way the pride did the production, the way that they introduced all of those guys to the sport or to the world. And the way that just the whole vibe of everything made it feel like it was,

the biggest, it was the fucking Super Bowl, right? And UFC, like, is kind of claimed to be the Super Bowl. They've never really done. They've had the best athletes, for sure, right? They've had the best fighters in the world, bar none for a long time, in that sense, the Super Bowl. But the show, like, Pride had the fucking Super Bowl. Oh, 100%.

And, you know, I'll argue slightly with you on Fedor, only with this one point, because Fadour's one of my all-time favorites. I used to have, like, I've owned, like, three MMA shirts in my lifetime. One of them is the immortal affliction shirt that I still have in my closet. And I own a WC shirt that they gave me for, like, one of their final shows. They gave me a WC shirt, which was cool because my mentor, Ryan Bennett used to call WC fights.

And the other shirt, the other shirt I have, the other shirt I have is Fador, and it says, Nobody Beats Me. Do you remember that shirt back in the head? I had like a half vision of Fadour. I still have that shirt. So I was a big Fador guy. But as much as I love Fador, I think the magnitude, like, that run of like five or six fights, I think Sakaraba versus the Gracies was like that was transformational.

Like when he fought Hino and he fought, like he just went on a run. And then it all ended with Vanderlai just beating the absolute dog shit. Because of Sakaraba. But those, like the hoist fight and Hino and like going, he became the Gracie killer. Like him doing that run was legendary. Now it was a shorter span because Fador did it longer and the obvious was more dominant. But like I remember that run man where it's like how the fuck does Sosker? Socceraba keep beating all these incredible Jujitsu guys, and he won.

And he ran into Vanderlay, and that was pretty much the end of that run. But they had two years span there. Soccerab was special. Yeah, that's what, again, when we talk about the Mount Rushmore of it, made the most influential. Like, we have a Western bias, right? And certainly, UFC bias, because that's all we hear about all day. That's all that we talk about.

And there's really no competitor with them anymore, right? And I don't know if ever actually was other than pride. but pride had a gigantic influence on that time period and I mean so much that the UFC went to buy them right and they're like like you guys can't do this you can't fuck with it so but I'd imagine in Asia like it changed the MMA game over there right like it made MMA prominent in Asia and without them I don't know how long that would have taken right for the UFC to eventually work its way over there and and how it was would have taken off. I know the UFC tried early on and it didn't really do much. So, you know, whatever they did to make that happen, I feel like you had a huge influence on the world. And and then even when they were absorbed by the UFC and then the guys came over, I mean, that was an epic time period for us old fans, right? Like that was, we were like, oh, they're coming to the UFC and, you know, it didn't play out exactly the way we all expected. But,

I remember I was, uh, I was at the show and Detroit and Rampage when his debut walked out to the pride music, and I was so geeked out to when that pride music hit, I was so excited. So last thing I'll get you, I will get out here on this. Matt, you're a pro fighter, you're a legend in your own right. You just did a UFC show recently where they put you up in the graphics there, Matt Brown, most knockouts in Welterweight history. So you are a guy people meet and like, man, I can't believe I'm meeting Matt Brown right now.

So I'm putting you on the spot here. Have you ever, has there been a fighter you've met or a person you met or you got a little nervous? You're like, oh, man, because I was going to mention, like, out of all the, guys I've ever interviewed all the guys have been around. I've only ever been ever been kind of nervous two times and it was when I interviewed fadour in person and every crow cop in person both those I was like oh my god like these guys were like gods to me because like they were just such icons and pride and then like years later I get to interview my purse I was like oh I'm a little nervous have you ever

been nervous meeting another fighter any fighter boxer or kickbox or anything like have you ever been nervous meeting another fighter yeah it was you know uh before I was in the UFC kind of a crazy story. The first UFC I ever went to. So here's the whole story. So my brother, he got out of the military and, you know, he got a, I don't know what they get when they get on the military, but they get a little check or something, right?

Some sort of big check. So he said, hey, I'm going to take you guys to Vegas and we're going to go party for the weekend. So he flies me out to Vegas. I think I had 50 bucks to my name, maybe 100. I think I brought 100 bucks with me, right? And apparently that doesn't go very far. in Vegas, right? There's not shit you can do for a hundred bucks in Vegas, even in 2005.

But I get out there and, you know, as we're laying, we take the taxi to the Mandalay Bay and I see the sign for UFC 47. And I was like, well, fuck, I have to go. Like, that's this weekend. And I just happened to be here, right? So I ended up getting a ticket, I think 75 bucks. You know, I get in there and I'm sitting by myself. Like, my brother wasn't a big fan or anything. you know, the other people I was with wasn't a big fan. So I'm just sitting there by myself. Arlofsky's actually sitting close by me. There's no one else sitting around me.

Like this is, I mean, you remember those days when like it was not a packed stadium. It was at the MGM, but it was not packed at all. So anyway, so leaving the stadium and come back to the Mandalay, getting in the elevator to go back up to my hotel room. And there's a bunch of guys wearing UFC stuff. And it was a Rainey Couture and Favitour Belfort that night, right? And I was like, oh, hey, did you guys go to the fight? And they're like, yeah, they were going up to Randy Couture's after party.

You want to go? And I was like, oh, fuck, yeah, right? So they take me up to the top floor, the Mandalay and the little penthouse suite for Randy Couture. And, you know, I walk in. Of course, like, I'm a little nervous that it's Randy Couture. But then I walk in, it's not just Randy Couture. It's Dan Henderson, Matt Linnland.

I think Chale Sondon was there. And I think the reason I got so nervous is because I was drunk off my ass. I was I was already shit face drunk, you know. And I'm looking around. I'm like, holy shit. And there was beer there, but like nobody was drinking it. And then I see Couture in the other room, you know, it was like one of those split hotel rooms. And I see him in the other room eating like chicken and broccoli.

And I'm sitting there drunker than fuck. Just like, you know, with these legends of the sports. And this is when, you know, Henderson was in pride, right? Which we were just talking about, I think he fought Vanderle. He was either coming up or it had just happened. I can't remember, you know, Linlin was, you know, doing his thing. You know, all these ledges. So, yeah, I got nervous as fuck right then.

And probably said some stupid shit and probably wasn't very much fun. And, you know, I actually invited my brother and my cousin up. and they're like, oh, yeah, this is fucking cool. Then they realized, like, kind of how lame the party was. They're like, all right, we're out of here, bro. And I'm like, I can't fucking leave, bro. Like, you're just going to leave me here by myself. And so I ended up hanging out by myself and probably looking like an idiot

because I didn't really know what to say to anyone. And, you know, I didn't have a cell phone back then. So no pictures or anything. But did you ever, did you ever run into Randy again and like tell him that story? I'd be curious. I was that you know, I never have. I've ran into Randy and I never did tell him that story as a matter of. fact, yeah. Yeah, I should tell him

sometime, but I was like, that's like one of those things like you never really, I'm sure he was like, really? Like, that's kind of wild. You're at my after party. Yeah, well, I wonder if you would remember me, like, you know, just that guy kind of standing by himself, getting shit-faced drunk while everybody else is eating chicken and broccoli. I

remember, real quick, I remember my first UFC event. It was Chuck versus Tito in Vegas, Mandalay Bay. I was at that fight. And we somehow got into Tito Ortiz's post-fight party, and he got knocked out that night. I remember that's the first time I ever met Frank Meir.

Frank was the nicest guy in the world, still like Frank to this day, nicest guy in the world. But I remember Tito did this post-fight party. We're all there, and it's in like the private section. Like, I care where it was, what Barr was, but we were like the BIP. I care how we got into it because I wasn't, I was like a big media guy at this point. I was just going as a fan. And we got in, and I remember Tito's showing up, and I was like, man, this has got to suck.

So you get knocked out in the biggest fight ever because Chuck is your rival. and listen, Tito, say what you will about him, and I'm sure we could say a lot because Tito's Tito. But he came in and stood and took photos and signed autographs and met the fans who stood there to wait for him for like an hour straight. He had like sunglasses on. He got knocked out. Like he did not waiver, did not show up.

He showed up, took photos, took videos, took everything with his fans. every person had paid to go there and be with him he did it all and then i think he pieced out after like an hour of doing that but like i was just like that always reminded me of like even in like probably the worst situation you just got knocked out by your biggest rival on tv and you probably don't want to be anywhere near a fucking post fight party where people are going to be like oh man you got knocked out what was that like you asked me and he stood there for an hour to taking photos and signed autographs for me i was just like not going to defend tito being a tito but like in that moment i was like that's really cool like because i wouldn't want to do that i never

affect i wouldn't want to do that yeah yeah yeah that i never did that i got fucked up i was out i didn't like talking nobody um yeah the tito's a fucking great guy man it you know he he said tito's tito he's a unique guy and he's got a little bit of uh odd way of saying things or seeing things but he's a fucking good dude man he means well yeah like i said i'll never forget that i was like, wow, like, because that was like my first impression. I was like, this first time I ever met Tito, and I was like, you just got knocked out and you're here signing autographs and take a photo. Like, I wouldn't want to do that shit.

Like, he did it. He didn't really an hour straight. I was like, well, because I know, I've heard stories where people have these like elaborate post bite party set up. They lose, they don't show up. I've seen that happen before. And I get it. You're like, you don't want to be there for that.

But yeah, he showed up, took his loves, took his photos. I was like, that's pretty fucking cool. So anyways, we're going to get out of now. Quick announcement before we get out of here. we are going to be off the air for the next two weeks because Damon is taking a vacation for the first time in like three years. I haven't gone on vacation like three years. I'm taking a vacation for the next two weeks. So we're going to the next two weeks.

I'm going to Chicago to see System of a Down and Avenge Seventhold. I cannot wait for that. So it's going to be a good show. And then I'm just taking some time off after that to kind of chill in Chicago and hang out. And yeah, so no show for two weeks. I'm sure you're going to miss this terribly bad. Yeah. Yeah.

It'd be, I don't know what I'm going to do for the next two weeks. As a matter of fact. Well, we'll be back. We'll be back in two weeks. And obviously, the schedule ramps up again. Because we kind of, like I said, we don't have a UFC event this weekend. We get back and we're going to kind of gear up for, we got Nocha UFC coming up in September. We got the Paris event.

And then obviously, we got two paper reviews in October. We got, you know, Magibankan and Alex Pereira coming in and Morab and Corey Sanagan. And then, of course, Tom Aspinall and Cyril gone at the end of the month. So we got two paper views in October. There's a good time to take a break and get geared up for the fucking best cards of the year. Mayhem, Mayhem. Before I get out of here, Matt, anywhere, people want to check you out. They want to support you. Your new creatine, for instance?

Yeah, that would be Vitafield, V-I-T-A-P-H-U-E-L. Check out, man. I swear, like, I swear, like, I swear like, I swear like... It's something every single person should be doing. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, as I always want to say, big thank you to everyone that tunes in the show. We appreciate it. We'll be back for more Fighter versus Rider in two weeks time. Like I said, next two weeks we're off, but we'll be back after that. And we appreciate everyone tuning in for Matt Brown.

I am Damon Mard. We'll see you next time on the Fire Universe of the Rider. Thanks for shooting in, and we'll see you then. Unwrap holiday magic at Holt Renfrew with gifts that say I know you. From festive and cozy fashion to Lux Beauty and Fragrant Suts. Our special selection has something for every style and price point. Visit our Holtz holiday shop and store or online at Holtrenfrew.com. Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first, there, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes.