MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Ronda Rousey vs. Gina Carano, Zuffa Boxing Signing Conor Benn Away from Eddie Hearn

Episode Date: February 24, 2026

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin discuss the news that Ronda Rousey is coming back to face Gina Carano in a fight on Netflix. Did the UFC mess up not booking this fight? Is this actually a fight MMA fans are interested in watching? Plus we’ll discuss Zuffa Boxing signing Conor Benn away from Eddie Hearn’s Matchroom Boxing and if the reported terms of the deal might upset some UFC fighters enough to make some bigger financial demands. All this and much more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, I know you were fresh home from Houston. You had a week or a few days at least down in Houston with your boy Josiah Harold. I know it didn't go his way. But obviously, you know, short notice fight, you got to take that opportunity.

And that's what fighters do. Yeah, man. He's a killer. He's going to be back. It was a tough fight to take on eight days notice to begin with. But he stepped up to the challenge. and I think he could have done better than he did. I think he thinks he could have done better than he did.

You know, I don't think that's just me saying that. You know, the funny thing is I don't think a lot of people notice this, and I didn't even notice it live when I watched it, but, you know, he got knocked out on the takedown. When he took down Jacoby Smith, he hit his head, and I don't think it completely knocked him out, but it, like, clearly rocked him real bad. And then, of course, Joe, he got an easy finish.

after that, but that was news to my ears. But I'll tell you what, man, that's the first time I cornered someone and they got knocked out. And, you know, he's a good friend too. Obviously, like, I'm pretty close with him, trained with him for a while now. You know, and started coaching him recently since my retirement and his kind of coming up. And, man, I'll tell you what, that was, that shit hurts, bro. That shit is hard to deal with, man.

and looking in the cage and, you know, watching him stumble over himself. And they sent me in because they needed something because he's trying to, you know, grab the reps and the doctor. And they sent me in to try to calm him down and have, you know, had to look in his eyes and tell you, bro, you lost. Like, you need to stop. And, um, that's fucking hard, man, especially knowing when he's, to add, you know, more to that, the fact that he had the brain surgery, you know, and, um, and, you know,

actually, being that I've never cornered someone that got knocked out before, like I didn't actually know kind of what it's like. I've just kind of seen it on TV. I've never been in the corner before. And to watch him kind of come back from it, I mean, it was a scary thing, man. It was actually one of the few times, I guess probably the only time or I've been in the corner and kind of my heart kind of dropped, you know, and actually got a little bit worried about someone. You know, it is scary in that moment.

And, you know, credits to the EOC when a guy gets knocked out, they'll generally just linger on him. You know, they're not trying to put it in the spotlight that he got knocked out. But obviously, just as the moment happens, like, you see, like, when Josiah got up, like, you see he's stumbling, you know, trying to, you know, struggling to get up. And that's scary, right? Like, when a guy gets knocked out like that, and that knockout in particular, like, it is pretty brutal. I didn't notice the takedown knocked him out either. I don't know it was a great takedown.

And then it did seem weird he got reversed so quickly. Like, I know Jacobi Smith, Oklahoma State wrestler, no, not taking anything away from him. But it was weird how, like, he got to take down. Boom. it was like a immediate reversal without any real resistance. I think it makes sense now that he was kind of knocked out from that

and then obviously when him getting punched and obviously getting finished right there makes more, like I said, not taking any way of Jacobi did the right thing and who knows what would have happened after, right? Like that's a win's a win and he did the right things he showed up,

he fought and he won't. So yeah, not take anything away from me either. The only thing I will take away from him was you know, he could have, he didn't have to land a, there's extra couple shots when the referee kind of tried to pull them off. And I didn't actually notice that live, you know, because I'm kind of just putting my head down, like,

just knowing what's about to happen, not really focusing on that. And I thought that was a little bit dirty. But other than that, yeah, I'm with you. I wouldn't take anything away from him. I do. I mean, you're right. Like, it's kind of been a little bit of a post-fied debate. Like, is it Jacobi Smith's fault or is it Carrie Hatley's fault the referee?

Like, the referee, like, when he went into stopping me, he kind of touched him, but, like, it was just a very, like, I, when you're in the heat of, that moment. This is just me. This is my opinion. Not yours. This is not Josiah's opinion. When I'm in that moment, I think of like when Herb Dean like full on tackles guys to get them all because you're like just, I understand you're in the heat of the moment. You're trying to get the knockout. You don't really, you feel the adrenaline rush, whatever. And I didn't want to paint Jacobi's like dirty for that moment, but I was like, I rewatched it a couple of times. And like, Carrie Hatley barely touched him. Now I understand like, you know, he touched you're

supposed to stop. But at the same time, like you're just, you're in the heat of the moment punching. Carrie Hatley barely touches him. Then he finally drags him off. I'm like, dude, you get to like, you know, do the Herb Dean. Like, he'd full on bullrushes and tackle guys off you. Like, that's kind of what you have to do sometimes as a referee. So I do put a little bit of that back on the referee because, like, it was a very weak stoppage. I'll put blame on both of them.

Carrie Hadley should have stopped this sooner. And Jacoby Smith should have had the awareness to stop. Yeah. It was both their faults. It wasn't one or the other. Yeah. And, you know, both of them could have been more proactive. and I mean,

Jacoby knew he was knocked out. He knew he was punching a dead man. You know, and yeah, I know how it is in the heat of moment. I've had enough fights. I mean, you guys have seen me pull back in fights before

where I had a guy knocked out and I stopped it. Yeah. You know, don't tell me like you can't think about that during the heat of the moment. But I also get, you know,

Carrie Halley should have been more aggressive with the stop. Especially, I mean, he's clearly knocked out and there's no sign of Jacobi Smith, slowing down. But, but I think, you know, to give Carrie Halley the credit, like, I think he thought that he just lets him know it's done and the guy's going to stop and he didn't. And that's where, you know, again, they're both at fault to some extent. I put more fault on Jacoby Smith.

Yeah, it's an ugly situation because, like, when I rewatch it now, I mean, it is. It's a tough rewatch. But, like, I didn't realize how out he was from the takedown. Like, when he got who heard, like, when I watched it live, I was like, that first or second shot, I was like, oh, he's done. And it just kept going. I'm like, dude, what are we doing here? that like you're right it falls on both them because like Jacoby had to know he was out and the referee like what are you looking at you're right there it's not like he's in a bad position he couldn't see his face

like he was done and then you know it is a split second we're talking about three or four more punches well that's a lot of damage in three or four more punches you know what I mean so it's an ugly one and I feel for it and I know I know Dana said last night after the fight he's like everything he heard was you know Josiah's okay obviously you're with him so

in terms of him like getting knocked out scary but like is he as far as you know is he physically okay afterwards Totally fine. Yeah, by time we were backstage, he was totally fine and in good spirits and, you know, just happy to have been blessed with the opportunity. And he'll definitely come back stronger. You know, again, I don't, I don't like kind of being that guy, but look, he got he got knocked out on a takedown. He was, you know, he was being offensive doing the right thing. It took down a goddamn big 12 champ, All-American and knocked himself out on the way.

So, look, he's going to be back and he's going to be stronger. I still think people are going to be very shocked when they see him at his best going in there. And I still believe 100% he has every chance in the – every opportunity to be a champion. I think he's got all the tools to be a champion is what I'm looking at there. When you say – it's crazy. I'm glad you said about the takedown. I was watching it last. We all know Josiah is a shorter Walterway.

They call him a muscle hamster for a reason. When he initially got that takedown and got reversely, man, maybe he's just a little undersized for Welterway. One day he was undersized for Wadde, so he got knocked out into the takedown. Because I watched him in his eyes, I'm like, and listen, credit, Joe Kobe Smith's a freaking All-American wrestling. He's a legit wrestler. But even in that moment, like, when he got the takedown, it's like, damn, impressive he took him down.

But the way it happened to so rapid fire, I was like, oh, man, did he just get muscled out of the position? No, he got knocked out and just got rolled. Yeah, and I hate saying knocked out. I think he just got rocked really hard. Days, days, yeah, days rocked, whatever. He still, like, put his arms out to try to defend and stuff. but I think he just kind of lost his senses.

But, you know, and he may be, that's a conversation meeting him we're going to have this week. We're getting some Dexas scans, look at his body because, you know, feeling, training with him for so long, he feels to me like a 170 guy. Weight, or his weight, his movement, his strength, all those things feel like 170. But every time I've cornered him, a fight now and I walk in there and I see the guy next to him and I'm like Jesus Christ like

this guy is so much bigger than him so you know we're going to have our conversation about 55 I mean you know the thing is Josiah has gigantic legs you know he's built like a Cormier or you know one of those guys you know where he's just gigantic legs and so yeah but we'll we'll cross that bridge next week and get it figured out that's part of the game right it happens to all the best of us and you got to keep moving forward and keep figuring things out as you go along. I know I mentioned this on the show last week. I was joking because they called him the muscle hamster.

I always remember the muscle shark, Sean Shirk. He had a big career at Walterweight. And I think he lost to Matt. He was in the title fight. It was like the first time where he kind of got like muscled around and moved around in a fight. Dropped down to 155 and he was a holy tear at 155. He was a champion.

He was great. So, you know, maybe that's a similar situation for Jezai where it's like he, I mean, he looked, you know, he's always been physically good enough to go at 170, but he just never know. Like I said, and too, it's great. Jacoby Smith's a very big welterweight. Like, he's a huge welterweight.

Like, what I saw him, I was like, oh, he's a massive welterweight. But, yeah, I mean, that's the reality. Like I said, like, you put him in there with a guy like Ian Gary. Ian Gary is like 6-2. You know what I mean? That's a big Walterweight for your, you know, you're a sizable welterweight as well. Average size. And, you know, I think there's pros and cons to being taller and shorter.

I think there's pros and cons to each. You know, I think a lot of times these guys get carried away with being worried about being small or worried about being too short things. And if anybody proved that wrong of Frankie Edgar, right? I mean, the guy was undersized for 155 and probably undersized for 145. And Demetius Johnson, another guy undersized his whole career. I mean, he was undersized for 125. I mean, he's one of the tiniest guys you'll ever see. So, you know, again, I think there's a lot of different ways to look at that, a lot of different ways to approach it. And, you know, you got to do what makes the fighter feel the best, right?

What makes them feel the most confident and feel like they can go in there and perform at their best? Well, listen, he got the short-in-off opportunity. It didn't go for him. But we know he's going to come back. He's going to get another fight in the UFC. And hopefully on a full training camp, you don't actually have time to repair it. Actually, you know, time to scout out and get ready for an opponent. But, yeah, it's a tough one.

But, like I said, man, that's the, you know, that's the game, man. Like I said, you can be as ready as you can and just, hey, one thing goes wrong. and fights, you know, different fights over. So I have no doubt Josiah is going to bounce back and become a better fight from this. And I just, I just hope we get two on a full camp. Like, I know, I know it's, you know, eight days notice is eight days notice. You know, he's like, I don't care how you cut it. It's not easy to do anything on eight days notice.

Yeah, that's exactly right. That's a, you know, and that's how you got the fight, right? No one wanted to fight Jacoby Smith on eight days notice. So they called in someone who just wants to get in the UFC, which was Josiah, someone that can make weight that quickly. And, you know, he wasn't ready to make weight for even 170. So, you know, it's a, that's the way this game works out, you know. And, you know, you got to shoot for the stars in his game.

If he went in there and beat him, it would have been gigantic for him, right? He goes in there and loses. Yeah, it's kind of what people expected, right? Like Jacobi was certainly the – or Josiah was definitely the underdog and the betting. And, you know, I don't think outside of his own circle, too many people were probably picking them to win that fight, right? That's just the way that this game works, man. You're the guy that's got the balls to step in there and do it.

And sometimes big things happen, right? But you've got to shoot for the stars always. 100%. 100%. No doubt he's going to be back better next time. I look forward to what he does next to the UFC, whether it's welterweight, lightweight, options. So we'll see what happens moving forward.

Matt, we did the podcast last week. And then like a day after the podcast goes live, one of the biggest announcements, one of the most shocking. announcements we've had the long time came out out of nowhere. Ronda Rousey is officially been back and she's fighting Gina Carrano on Netflix teaming up with Jake Paul, the most

valuable promotions, not going back to the UFC. You've been in Houston getting Josiah ready, so I don't know how much you've read about this, but I'll kind of give you the lay of the land just in case you're catching up. They did the deal. They're fighting 145 pounds on May 16th in California. And Rhonda's come out

and said that like, you know, she originally reached out to Dana and wanted to work with the UFC. I guess they had a deal in place that would have gotten her, like, you know, really big pay-per-view numbers, but then after the initial agreement was in place, they signed with Paramount. And according to Rhonda, you know, Dana and the UFC didn't want to offer more guaranteed money versus, like, you know, what she could have potentially earned on pay-per-view. I got something to say about that in a minute. But, Matt, we talked about Rhonda coming back last year when she was, like, getting back into training videos and stuff.

We're like, I don't know if this seems like a great idea, but, you know, to each of their own. Now it is official. She's fighting Gina Carondo. hasn't fought in 17 years. Rhonda hasn't been fought in 10 years, and they are now going to fight each other. I think Rhonda's 38 or 39 and Gina's 43. So, Matt, what was your initial reaction?

What are your thoughts of this whole Rhonda Rousey, Gina Carrano, fight, Netflix, not UFC, Jake Paul. There's a lot to soak in. There's a lot to take in right there. That's so funny. I mean, the first thing I did when I read it was I kind of chuckled a little bit. This is the world we live in. This is what we all deserve.

because this is what we all pay attention to. And that's what they're going to give us. And we're all going to fucking watch it, whether we like it or not, because it's a mainstream thing. And, you know, your neighbors are going to be talking about it. You're fucking,

you know, when you take your kid to soccer on Sunday, the soccer mom's going to be like, I'm watching Monroe Rosie this weekend. And, you know, girl power. Yeah. So we'll all end up watching the son of a bitch

whether we want to or not. But with that, said, I mean, I've spoken my thoughts about women's M&A in general many times. No hate towards women, so I don't need to hear I'm a fucking misogynous pig or anything. Like, I think there's some great women fighters for the most part of sucks. Gino was actually one of them. I've always had a lot of respect for and thought that she was actually a talented fighter for a woman. Rhonda I never cared too much for but that was 17 years ago

Do I need to see two out of prime women fight each other for no reason at all And one of them is Rhonda Rousey? No Do I have to answer that? I mean, well let me let me throw this on it What you got on this? This is going to be the most

This is going to be a very, I want to say controversial. I'm going to get shit for this. I know I'm going to get shit for this. Because you're not supposed to... You're never supposed to side with the UFC when it comes to financials. We've had that discussion. Fighters are all underpaid. The UFC does not pay fighters enough.

They should be paying more. We'll be clear it up front about that. But when Rhonda was talking, I think it was on a Jim Rome show. Rhonda said she had a deal in place. She was going to get more pay-per-view points than she'd ever gotten before. And based on her previous pay-per-view performances, meaning what she got when she was in the UFC before, she would have made more money from the Gina Carano fight than she ever made in her career.

Now, based on those calculations, she's probably right, but a couple things about that. One, pay-per-view what it is in 2026 is not what it was in 2016 or 2015. Ten years later, a lot has changed. A lot has changed in terms of pay-per-view what people are willing to buy. Two. Hold on real quick, not to cut you up. It's going to be on Netflix, right, which is not going to be pay-per-view, right? It is, but originally it was going to be the UFC on pay-per-view before they went to Paris.

That was the original deal. And she said Dana had, you know, offered her, you know, whatever guaranteed money, but then her real money was going to come from pay-per-view. But my point is, pay-per-view in 20-26 is not what, or 2025, whenever the fight was going to happen, is not what pay-per-view was 10 years ago. So let me get that out of it. Now, part two of that is this. She said that when the deal happened with Paramount, the UFC didn't want to guarantee her

as much money. Now, I don't know what that number was. I know she's like, I'm getting paid, you know, $3 million up front plus pay-per-view, and you don't want to offer me more than like 7 million or 8 million. I have no idea what the number is. And she's like, I would have made way more on pay-per-view. But here's the thing about that, Matt, and I think you're going to agree with me. Maybe you won't.

Ronda Rousey and Gina Carrano in 2025, 2026, it's happening in 2026, feels to me, this is not being disrespectful, just being honest. It feels to me very similar to Jake Paul and Mike Tyson. Huge names, huge names, iconic names, but there's that factor of like, I don't really know what we're going to see here. Like, one person's been out for 17 years, the other person's been out for a decade. And the last time we saw the person's about for a decade, she was getting knocked out badly by Holly Holman and Amanda Nunes. I don't think this fight would have sold that much on pay-per-view. Like, I don't know if people would have been willing to plunk down $90 to watch Ronda Rousey 10 years after her last fight. I don't care that it's Gina. Gina Corona is a name, too.

She absolutely is a name. But, like, I don't know that this is going to do a million pay-per-view buys. Now, on Netflix or Paramount Plus, whatever it would end up being. Yes, you're good. Like, I just, I just like, like Mike Tyson, Jake Paul did insane numbers. They got over 100 million people watching at one point during that fight. But I don't think that fight would have sold on pay-per-view because I think enough people know 58-year-old Mike Tyson is not worth plunking down $80 of your harder money.

But when you already have a Netflix subscription, sure. I'll turn that on a Saturday night or Friday night whenever it happened because I'm already paying $10 or $15 a month for Netflix. That's not an investment. Investment is when you're like, I need to pay $100. to watch this or $80 to watch this. Floyd Mayweather and Manny Packow is the biggest pay-per-view of all time. Even that was like two or three years past when it should have happened,

but we're still talking about pretty much in their prime, two of the best pound-for-pound boxers ever at that era fighting each other. And it had been built up and they were not past their prime. Maybe they were not, you know, where they should have been when the fight was supposed to have it, but they were still pretty much right there. Rhonda's 10 years removed from being a relevant women's fighter. Gina is 17 years removed. Like, there's not a, outside of, outside of cyborg who absolutely crushed Gina when they fought,

there's not a single person on her resume who's still active. Like, there's not a single person she fought who is still active today. So my point is, like, I don't know what you're expecting out of this fight, but I have a hard time believing anyone. Like, there was going to be, I don't believe there's going to be eight or nine hundred thousand people that were going to pay $80 to watch that fight. So Rhonda's theory about, I'm going to make the most money ever was based on two things. one, what she did in her previous Roma DOC, and as I said, pay-per-view in 20-26 is not what

it was in 2020-15 or 2016. And part two of that is, I don't know that people are going to be willing to pay that. They'll watch on Netflix, because you already got Netflix. Or even if you don't have Netflix, you're paying, what, $10, $12 to watch a fight? Sure, I'll pay $10 or $12. Yeah, and you get Netflix.

But are you willing to pay $90 to watch Gina and Ronda fight in $2026? I have a hard time believing that would have been a huge pay-per-view. Yeah, I could not agree more with you. And I think it's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out, even on Netflix. I just said a minute and I said, but we're all going to watch.

Everybody's going to watch. I don't know if that's the case. Like, the more I'm sitting here thinking about it, while you're talking. I don't know. I mean, I could definitely see where everybody watches, but I could also see where no one really gives a shit. Yeah, I mean, Ronda has. not done herself any favors publicly for a very long time.

Gina's been kind of polarizing, right? I mean, I like Gina. I think she's great. Kevin Ross is one of the best people ever, her boyfriend. I don't even know if they might be married now or whatever, but he's one of my favorite people in history. But the mainstream, like how many people really know who Gina is? And those who do, I mean,

You know, again, she's polarizing, right? Like, she's a, like, clearly, like, very conservative person. So, you know, you're going to have 50% of them or not, you know, those same, those 50% people might watch to hope she gets knocked out, right? Or that'll be cheering for Rhonda. But then who's actually going to cheer for Rhonda? I mean, is anybody actually going to cheer for Rhonda? I mean, like, I don't see.

she she sticks her foot in her mouth more than anybody I have ever seen in the history of sports period I mean I don't know how she's going to have a single fan they're rooting for there there there cheering for to lose right I mean that's you know that was Floyd's game right he was always the heel and everybody wanted to see him lose and you know I mean every big shit talker gets to that point right chel son and um Connor McGregor, Floyd. That's like their game, right, is play the heel. Kobe Cunnington became master of it, right?

This is a common thing. But Rhonda, the way that she does it, she's more, she's not even being a heel. She's sticking her foot in her mouth. And it's like, is people going to want to watch to see that? You know, there'll be people watching to say, I want to see Ronnie get beat, or people would be like, I don't really feel like watching her.

Yeah, I mean, Rhonda, I'm not being cruel about this. Rhonda kind of goes out of her way to be unlikable, like, in a way. Like, she burned, yeah. She burned a lot of bridges with the way she left the sport, you know. Because if you think of like a Floyd, okay, he plays the heel, but he's a likable heel. Yeah. Right.

Like, we all want to be like Floyd. Like, we want to, we, I think that's more the game is he's being a heel that we all wish we could be. We wish, or Connor, the same. Like, I wish I could do that shit while I'm on my yacht. I wish I could talk shit and say I'm the baddest dude in the world while I'm on my yacht It's not just unlikely

We want to see them lose Because it's like oh You create jealousy Right they do that shit They flash their money to create jealousy And you know That's how they become heels And you know

And talking shit Rhonda doesn't do any of that Like we just simply don't like her Because she's a A sour apple You know Yeah I mean she

I mean You know I've said this for a long time you know I brought this up to you before, Matt. Like, I always go back to the night that Dominic Cruz lost his title to Cody Garbrandt. And that was on the same card as Rhonda losing to Amanda Nunes. And I always remember that post-mite press comments, Dominic's showing up and answering every question, didn't shy away from the tough ones.

You know, he was very, I was like, damn. Like, I've always liked and respected Dominic Cruz. But, like, that moment, I was like, damn, this is like the shining star, even though it's a loss. I was like, man, what a way to take a loss. Now, and I've said that about Connor, too. Like, I remember when Connor lost to Nate. And I was, I asked Connor questions at the post-fired press conference. He didn't shy away now.

I understand, like, the Holly Home fight. She got knocked out. She got a jawbroken or whatever. Of course you're not going to be there. You're going to go to your treatment. I get that. Like, I understand. She doesn't have to show up for that pressler.

But then she just, like, disappears off the map for a year. And then I remember when she came back for Amanda, didn't want to do interviews, didn't even do the press or, like, refused to do any of that. And then she lost and just bolt it out again. Like, you don't have to, like, I'm not saying you have to always be gracious. but at least take your lumps. Like that's just part of the sport. And she never did.

Like she's just, I said this when she did that whole book tour. It's like, and we were talking about like you, like you said, like we want to love Ronda, but we just, I said the problem is it's like

all these years later, she still has never honestly addressed those fights. She talks about concussions and oh, she fell down a flight of stairs and that's why at no point did she ever say, credit to Hollyholm, man.

She had a great game plan. She took it to me, great credit to Amanda New Nelson. Still hasn't. Still hasn't. To this day, she's never really talked about that. And I'm like, that's the problem.

Like, you can't even like. That whole thing. That's another good point because that really makes me wonder, what's the media tour going to be like on this? What's the press going to be like? Because what's her, what's her narrative going to be? Right? I'm coming back as the baddest bitch ever and I'm going to be a girl hasn't fought in 17 years.

Or, you know, what's it going to be? Because, you know, kind of what I've seen from her lately, which is not like I'm following her every day. You know what I mean? I'm not, I don't, I don't think I follow her on Instagram. I'm probably blocked by her on Instagram. But it seems like a lot more self-pity and bitterness. And that's not going to sell any fight.

Yeah. Nobody wants to buy a fight because you're a bitter old lady. Right? I don't know. Well, and I think like the thing with Gina and I go back, with Gina, like, to the start of my career. That's how far I go back. Like, I always doubt that.

I'm pretty sure I was one of the first people to ever interview Gina because she was about to do a K-1 fight. And her ex-boyfriend at the time reached out to me and he said, hey, would you interview my girlfriend? She's about to do K-1. And I was like, sure. And I looked her up and there's so little information about her at that point. We did an interview.

And she was really sweet and nice. And we stayed close over the years. And when she was doing her movie career back in like 2014, she was doing a movie, promoting a movie and I reached out by doing an interview and she like didn't talk to any mMA people but she talked to me because she knew me like she would go back a long ways now I think she got a little upset when I covered the whole Star Wars thing when she got fired and everything and that whole mess happened but I just covered it I didn't really put an opinion on it I just said like this happened and when she closed her lawsuit probably got a bunch of money I covered that too

so I haven't talked to jean in a few years but I've always I've always like gina as a person now do I agree with everything she's ever posted online no but I don't agree with her I think Rhonda Rossi's ever post online either. But so I think Gina's got like, you're right, Gina's a little more like controversial, a little more polarizing because this whole like the thing that happened with like, you know, becoming like the conservative queen and,

you know, getting the whole Star Wars thing. But I'm not placing an opinion on that. So I think she does have a name, but it's almost like she has a name from that more than she does. It's almost like a secondary note that she was a fighter 17 years ago. You know what I mean? Like so here,

but let me bring this up to you, Matt, because and here's where this is, I was just real quick. I mean, her, the narrative behind her as a fighter is she is a legendary pioneer who hasn't fought in 15 years or 17 years I mean it's not like there's nothing more to her legacy than that right I mean after she got beat by chris cyborg it was okay the next it's the the the women's division has moved on like you're the old guard now the new guard is in like that was I remember that time that was it that was the

that was the narrative like you know you did amazing we love you you know go do great things go do Star Wars whatever and then you know everything all that's deserved and you know I think she's had great success since outside of fighting obviously

and I think everybody's cheered for her she's a sweetheart like one of the nicest people in the sport but none of that had to do with fighting yeah yeah so let me let me I promise you I'm not setting you up to for failure here Matt

because I'm asking you a question because you are a much more enthusiastic and knowledgeable boxing fan than I am. And I'm saying, there's a purpose of I'm asking this question. Has women boxing ever really drawn? Because I say it never has. Like even like Layla Ali at her height, she didn't really draw. Women's boxing has never drawn a big crowd. Am I wrong about that? Am I fairly accurate in that statement?

I mean, Layla Ali and Katie Taylor started to draw a little bit, but not really. Serrano made a couple fights that people wanted to see I guess with Katie Taylor um Coressa Shields like everybody knows who she is but more because she just talks so much shit

and goes in and fucks up housewives um god there's one more that I'm not thinking of but no I mean no one's ever really cared about women's and you know not to be misogynist which I know it sounds that way again

but like, does anybody care about any women's sport? Well, let me save you from going down that road too far. People going nuts. But here's the reason I ask that question. And here's, but let me tell you where I'm going with this. My girlfriend just walked in. So let me tell you where I'm going with this. So Amanda Serrano and Katie Taylor, too, did monster numbers,

but that's because they were the co-main event to Mike Tyson, Jake Paul. I'm not belittling what they did. It still matters. but they were part of the biggest. They didn't be massive numbers. Jake Paul, Mike Tyson, dude. When they did their third fight on Netflix, they did, they topped out,

and it was like 4.2 million average viewers, and 6 million was the top. Now, that's pretty good. Six million viewers is pretty good, and that's actually better than the UFC's debut on Paramount. They did about 5 million viewers. Now, the big thing you have to remember is

Netflix has 300 million subscribers. Paramount has like 79 million. So here's where the weird thing comes in. I guarantee you, Rhonda Rousey and Gina Corona just based on a curiosity factor and the fact that Netflix has 300 million subscribers, they're going to do a huge number. I don't know if it's going to be 40 million.

I don't know if it's going to be 30 million. I don't know what the number is going to. It's going to be a lot. And yes, it is based on name value. It's based on curiosity. It's based on, hey, I know Ronda Rousey. It's like I got nothing going on a Friday night. Let's watch.

Just like the Mike Tyson. I knew that. I mean, as a... Does it have anything going on Friday night? Well, I have, like, well, I mean, but like, I knew, I knew the Mike Tyson's. Fucked up your thing. No, but let me, let me, let me, take, take my job out of this. Like, I knew Mike Tyson and Jake Paul was going to be a dog shit fight.

There was no way that was going to be a good fight. But of course, I was curious. Like, of course, I'm going to watch this as a fan. I love Mike Tyson. I grew up by Mike Tyson. But I knew what the fight was going to be. So I'm saying there's going to be that curiosity factor. There's going to be.

And maybe it lasts 30 seconds, like half a rondous fights anyway, which just takes Gina down and submits it with an arm bar. And like I said, you already have Netflix. You're not really losing anything. paying for the subscription. Yep. So here's my point. I get what you coming from.

I think the fight's going to do monster numbers. Like, I think it's going to do good numbers. And I think it's probably likely they're probably going to do bigger numbers in the UFC card in the White House, like a month later because that's on Paramount Plus. They're talking about maybe doing CBS. But like even then, like, you know, the biggest NFL games get like 38, 40 million viewers on CBS. Like they're probably good. Like, Ron and Gene is probably going to get bigger numbers. That's going to be the narrative they're going to pay Matt.

They're going to say, man, Ron and Gina. that they did 35 million or 30 million and look what they, how badly they beat the UFC. But that goes back to my original point because like, I'm sure it would do big numbers. But like, where do you balance it at? Like, are we more interested in like the freak show stuff, like that or are we more interested in like actually competitive fights?

Because I'm telling you, that's going to be the narrative. I don't care if the fight is awful. I don't care if Roda submits her in 12 seconds. The narrative is going to be, oh, we did 30 million viewers. We crushed the UFC. But is it really that big of a win? You know, I guess what's one? I'm not trying to.

dog the fight. I'm just saying, is it really that big of a win? Because Mike Tyson, Jake Paul, did bigger ratings than any boxing match in history in terms of viewers. But is that anywhere, like, are we ever going to talk about that fight again in terms of like what it actually means? No, it was a horrible fight. Mike Tyson was 58 years old. He should have been there to begin with, and it was terrible. It was a terrible fight. You know what I'm saying? Like, yes, it did huge numbers, but ultimately, what did it really do? Like, what did it do for the sport? Didn't do anything. Yeah, I don't have a good answer, to be honest. I mean, I don't think, I don't know if any of this stuff is doing anything good for the sport.

Jake Paul, or for the sports. We're talking about boxing and MMA. I'm going to throw more tight and kickboxing in there because they're combat sports. I don't know if any of this, I guess we call it influencer boxing or an influencer fighting type stuff because let's face it, that's essentially what Gina and Miranda are at this point, right? They're not fighters. You're not a, I mean, okay, you're born a fighter, you're always a fighter, I guess. But they're not actual legitimate competitive athletic athletes, fighters at this point in their lives. So this is not a real fight.

Again, I don't know what any of this stuff is doing for any of these sports. Like, is any, you know, I mean, I'm not that in touch with the young generation, so I can't speak for that. But, I mean, I just, I can't imagine, like, some young kid coming in, never watch boxing, really. Then he sees Jake Paul and Mike Tyson boxing, like, oh, well, fuck, I got to find out, you know, what, the next boxing match coming on this weekend. How'd Brian Garcia do against Mario, so, you know, like, I can't wait to see that now. I just don't see where, where that point A gets to that point B.

Yeah, I mean. So, you know, for, now for the executive. for Netflix for these what do you call them these cable companies or streaming whatever it's doing great things for them for the you know but it's no different

than like MTV doing bully beatdown I mean like what a bully beatdown do for the sport you know like I don't I don't think these things do anything for the sport Rhonda Ronda and I know you agree with this like you don't like to be our biggest fan of notice like she changed the game

like when she came in she changed the game She made it like she brought in She you know Well I agree with that to some extent The UFC changed a game by bringing in women Yeah Rhonda was the surrogate Yeah Ronna was it They could have used the UFC could have put any woman in her spot

But I don't know Now to be fair she went out and she did the job right She went out and won right They could have done that with Holly Holme You can't tell me she couldn't win out knocked out or really beat up, you know, three or four or five girls and put her on Ellen Degeneres show. You know what I mean? Yeah, but Rhonda, all the, all the cards aligned and Rhonda became a massive star. I guess what I point. She did become a massive star. Her peak,

it was her and Connor. Connor was bigger, but Ron was a. Yeah, Ron, Connor did it for himself. I just, I like to be kind of particular with those words. Like, Rhonda did not do it. I'm, I'm pretty adamant about that. Like, Rhonda is not the one that did that. The UFC did it, and Rhonda was in the right place at the right time. But Rhonda, my point is Rhonda benefited from it. Like, she became the face of it all. She became the name.

Now, no, I'm not. In some ways, in some ways it kind of fucked her life up with you, yes, me. But whatever, that's another story. Go ahead. But I'm not, I'm not, like, she was a USC Hall of Famer. She defended her title five times. Like, she was, I mean, she was legitimately, you know, a star at her point in a career. And Gina was the Ronda of that era.

Like she was, everyone loved her. She was super popular. Just real quick. Gina, again, I believe she did that on her own. Yeah, but so. You know what I mean? Like she wasn't getting some gigantic push from Strike Force. No.

You know what I mean? She built her brand herself. But I digress. Well, no. So this is going to sound insulting what I'm going to say, but I'm going to say it. Gina at her peak was a massive star. That was in 2008, 2009. She got beaten badly by Chris Cyborg.

and she walked away. And credit to her. She went and made a big movie career. Probably made a lot more money and didn't have to take head damage for the next decade plus. Ronda last fought in 2016, she got wrecked by Holly Holmes.

She got wrecked by Manda Nunes and walked away. And then she came out and said, I had concussions and brain damage and all those other kinds of stuff, which suddenly all went away, I guess, because Netflix is paid her $15 million or whatever. I guess that's okay. This fight to me, and this is going to sound insulting,

but I'm going to say it. This fight to me feels closer to Elon Musk versus Mark Zuckerberg. then it does Kayla Harrison versus Amanda Nunes. You know what I mean? Like, Kayla Harrison versus Amanda Nunes is the peak of women's MMA right now. We were legitimately excited for that fight. Now, we'll be, like, Kayla Harris is a freaking monster.

I know you have a lot of respect for Kayla Harrison. You've praised her a lot on this show. And Amanda Nunes, you know, the goat, no doubt about it, she is. That is the highest level of women's MMA, much like, you know, like say, Yawanna versus Zhang Wei when they had that freaking insane war a couple years ago. That is like the peak of women's insane. MMA. The other side of that would be like the freak show like I said like the Elon like when because Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg yeah like 20 to 40 50 million people would have watched that. What did you

expect it was going to be? It would be an awful awful terrible fight but we're just we're built around the names. This fight feels closer to that now in 2026 than the other end of it is what I'm getting at. I don't think that like Rhonda may just get out there grab Gina throw her down the Judo throw an arm bar in 40 seconds and she looks quote unquote back but what did she really prove beating a fighter who hasn't fought in 17 years or maybe gina comes out there catch her with one jab and we see ronda can't take a punch anymore and she goes down and she's out in 30 seconds what do we really learn there either is gina is gina now 43 the best in the world no no one no one is going to look at this fight and say man that is the best fighter in the world so this fight feels like you're talking about influencer

this fight feels much closer to those fights yeah than it ever does like a high level like we're talking about see we're talking about you know you just engage ealia to porio or or whatever like you know what i mean like that's what i'm saying this feels like influencer fighting versus like real legitimate top 10 top five fighters yeah it's entertainment and i i i don't get the entertainment aspect of this fight personally i think that's kind of my whole point where i where i'm not so on board with it but you know you know one of one of the things that this this whole conversation has kind of brought into my mind a little bit was when i went to the ufc last night weekend it's the first time it's first time in a couple years I've cornered someone in the

UFC you know I've kind of stuck to building my own guys you know just working my own gym haven't really been traveling around like working with a bunch of UFC guys training with a bunch of guys or anything I'm kind of trying to do my own thing build my own thing and hopefully you know we get some greatness out of this but one of the interesting things you know doing this podcast I probably had about 10 people fighters and a couple other people, not fighters, like UFC staff, and not just say UFC staff, right? People involved in the sport that are there at UFC's regular.

Come up to me and say, dude, thanks for speaking up for the fighters. And thank you, we like what you say. You know, you go read the comments on Instagram. I mean, these fans, you know, it's hate after hate after hate, right? I mean, it gets some positivity to, you know, I'm not going to just remember all the hate. But, you know, there's a lot of negativity. You know, when I say some of the,

just truthful things. Not necessarily, you know, you know, saying something controversial, you know, like it's just, I just say truthful things. If it gets posted, it's posted. But anyway, the reason that that makes me think of this is if we want this, if fighters want change and journalists, fighters, the world of MMA want change. What the, what this, what this, entire thing needs to move towards the MMA, the world, is away from this entertainment influencership and into more of a sport.

I don't know exactly how that's to be done, right? Again, we could go deep into like, we went into it before, all the act, legislation that could be done, like, you know, the MMAFA, all these different things. But the fact that we all support it is what's keeping it. going. And if we want this to be a sport, if you want to get a fucking title shot off 11 fight

win streak because you're the number one guy, then this has to be a sport. It can't be fucking entertainment. And again, I'm not saying I necessarily know the answer to that, but that's what needs to be done. And I'm not going to hate on Gina and Rhonda going out and making a bunch of money, but it's doing nothing for the fucking sport and don't let's not fool ourselves into thinking that it is the again the nowgia story i said earlier like do you really think any 14-year-old kids are watching that shit like oh well i'm gonna start falling in the may now like no they're enjoying the fucking uh festivities of the night and they're like wow if anything it puts a bad look on the sport how many people watch jake paul and mike tyson and they're like oh these are you're

some 14 year old kid thinks oh these are the best two in the fucking world that they must be because they 100 million people fucking watched it yeah this is what is is going wrong with the sport and again i i it's you know there's this dichotomy inside of me where i'm like dude like of course i want to see these people get paid hell i i've been offered some of these fights i might end up taking one you know i mean i'm not going to do one these bullshit fights to make some money you know So maybe I'm part of the fucking problem too. Money talks, right? But I think I'm more just fucking philosophically speaking my mind.

Like it's just, it's so frustrating. Because I want this to be a fucking sport. And, you know, I want Armand to have a goddamn title shot. I want Movesaur to have a fucking title shot. You know what I mean? Because of their merit. And that's my fucking TED talk for the day, I guess. I don't know.

And it's just frustrating. And then when you see these fights like Gina and Rhonda, it's like again it's not doing anything for a sport i get the entertainment you know and good for them get a payday i mean again tons of respect for gina ronda is what she is um respect for i guess for being in the right place of the right time back in the day but i don't like this in our sport anymore i'm like i'm done with it you know i mean like i've seen enough of this shit like we we had fucking connor floyd okay guys you see no now like the fucking boxer be too big going boxing what do you know and it just it just won't

stop i'm like can we just be over this bullshit no i agree and like i said let me be clear about this like i'm not going to fault jina and ron if we're making a massive pay day i'm sure they're probably making 10 15 million dollars for this good for them like i'm not going to fault them for that but you're absolutely right and like like in terms of like what's gonna what's going to be viewed more it's gonna be ron and gina i know it is because like i already made i already explained it's on netflix more subscribers more interest factor i get it's going to get huge numbers But like even Gaichi and Toporia, which we've already talked about, it's not as close to a fight if we put Armine in their arm and should we get in the title shop. Let me just pluck Armine out of the conversation for a second and say, yes, I know I know I'llie is going to be a massive favorite.

And yes, I know, you know, Gagchi's going to be a huge underdog. But I am a thousand times more interested in that fight in terms like the actual fighting aspect than I ever would be in Gene and Mrona because we're talking about at worst two of the top five lightweights. I mean, I think, you know, Gaci, you could argue top three, top whatever number you want to put next to his name. name and Ily is number one. It's still a top five fight. Maybe one guy's a favorite, one guy's a huge underdog, but it's still a top five fight. Would I rather have Armin in there? Sure, but I'm not

going to fall. He's still a very good fighter. He's beat the brakes on Patty Pimble. He's a very good fighter. No one's going to deny that. That's a good fight. That's great proof that he's still a great fighter, right? Yeah. Yeah. So to be a smart ass, but but like, Rhonda and Gina,

I'm just like, wow, they were irrelevant. one was relevant a decade ago and the other one was relevant 15, 16 years ago and what are we expecting? And listen, I hope they go out and have a great fight. No one gets hurt, you know, outside of like in a normal fight. So, like, no one walks away at, like severely damaged, I guess what I'm getting at. And I hope it's fun.

I hope it's great. Now, you know, I talk to Gina's coach John Wood and syndicate. You know, she's taking it seriously. And like you, like I always had a great relationship with Gina. I had a much different relationship with Gina than I ever had with Rhonda. When Rhonda hit stardom, she didn't really talk to us anymore, like the regular. MMA media. She kind of did her own thing. It went on like ABC, Good Morning America, whatever. But I always had a really good relation with Gina. And I hope they both make a lot of money.

I'm not going to fall. I'll never fault anyone for making money, right? But yeah, like, am I actually interested in that fight? No. I have zero interest in watching those two fight in 2026. If they had done it, even in 2014, like, remember when they were talking about doing it then? Like, even then it would have been kind of like, Ronda's probably going to steamroller at that point. But at least like, okay, you know, Gina's five years passed and Ronda's in her prime okay like we're still you know we're in a relative time period where it could be a good fight that's not this is right rand isn't fun in a decade and genus won 17 years what are you expect like when when tyson came back like all right it's mike tyson i love mike tyson what do we

expect he was 58 years old you know what i mean like what do we really like remember when george foreman came back at like 50 something was still doing fights like dude what are we doing like what what are we really getting out of this so yeah i'm with you like for me personally would I'd rather watch Gaichi and Tupori a thousand percent. I'd rather watch that a thousand times over than watch Gina and Ron. But I know Gina and Ron is going to do ratings, and that's to your point. Like that's the problem. It's going to get ratings and be like, oh, you know, Netflix and you got ratings.

But what are we really getting out of this? Like, is Gina going to win and go on a title run? Is Rhonda going to win and go on a title run? No. They're probably going to fight this one fight and we never see them again for another decade. Yeah, again, it's just another fight, just like Jake Paul and Mike Tyson, everybody's going to watch it. and I'll get sucked into

because all my buddies will be like, hey, you watch from the flight and what are you doing? I said, I was going to fight, man. And then when it's all done, we're all going to be like,

why did I just waste my time watching that shit? Just like Jake Paul and Mike Tyson, right? I was in Thailand at the time and, you know, I'm at this, I was staying at the hotel

and I was just sitting up in my room sleeping, you know, jet lagging shit. And I'm, bro, you got to come down. Drake ball Mike Tyson. All right, I'll come down and no excitement whatsoever out of me, you know, maybe because I'm Mr. fucking negative Nancy or the Debbie Downer guy or whatever, you know,

but six rounds in, they're like, dude, what the fuck is this shit? I can't believe this is the fight we're getting here. I'm like, what the fuck did you expect? Yeah. Like what was going through your head? Did you think Mike Tyson was going to come out like he did against Trevor Burbick when he was 21? He's 50, he's almost 60 fucking years old, you dummies. Yeah, yeah.

Ron is going to be 39, Gene is going to be 43 or 44. Which is really isn't aged out of fighting, you know, at a good level. I mean, that's more of the time that they haven't competed. I mean, this guys that fight at a high level at 39, 43 years old, you know, like it's, that's not necessarily age. Those are the guys who continuously fought. to 43 years. Exactly. It's not been out for a decade.

Yeah, not been out for a decade. Yeah. And weren't going on like media tours telling them they've been suffering through concussions and CT and shit. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, I don't know. Like, did she say she retired because of concussion shit? I mean, concussions get cured real quick when they say,

hey, here's $15 million. Govigina Corona and naturally say, hey, my brain suddenly feeling great. I feel awesome. So, yeah. Or, hey, I wasn't using my brain anyway. Might as well. Might as well go in there and do some shit. Not risking a ton there.

Yeah, that's true. Real quick before you get out of here, Matt, I want to mention this because we mentioned boxing earlier. And once again, I turn to you because you are much more in tune with boxing than I am. But probably the biggest news coming out this past week, Dana White and Eddie Hearn have been going. Once friends, now very much enemies. They were going after each other.

And the big news of the week came out on Friday, which is Dana White and Zufa Boxing signed Connor Ben, who has been one of the mainstays of Mashroom, boxing, Eddie Hearn's matchroom boxing for years. I think he's like Anthony, Joshua, and Connor Bryn were probably the two most well-known matchroom guys, and Zufa signed him away. Now, we've heard all the rumors, one fight deal, and paid him a bunch of money. I'm not even getting in that.

What did you make when you heard that story? Because you're around boxing, you know these guys, and you know Eddie Hurd, you probably know of Eddie Hearn more than I do. Like, I know of Eddie Hearn because of like now getting, you know, now I'm watching more boxing. Like 10 years ago, I couldn't have told you. I could have picked him out of a lineup. You put 10 guys up there.

I would have got shot because I have. no idea who Eddie Hearn was. Now I do, but you've been around. So, like, how, how, like, in terms of, like, real story, like, how big is this? That's a really good question. I think it's a real good question, man. You know, it's very interesting. You said, yeah, they used to be friends. And even a few days ago, I thought they were still friends. And I think they thought they, I think Eddie Hearn thought they were still friends. You know, I mean, they were obviously, like, business rivals, right? Like, because Zuf is coming into boxing. Dane is, say, he's good. go take over and and Eddie's like,

just hold on, bro. Like, this is a box, you know, and then, and then I think it's pretty obvious. They're not friends now, right? Like, Bing is like, all right, motherfucker, I'm going for the jugular. And they took Matrim's biggest guy, Connor Ben.

I'm not, I'm not sure what to make of it. I got to, the first thing that popped in my head was conspiracy theory. Especially seeing one fight deal for 15 mil. Eddie's like, all right, look, bro, give me 10%. and you know that's 1.5 mil

Eddie's happy and go do their thing give us the inside scoop let me see the contract let's see what's going on and we'll bring you back after that's my conspiracy theory I'm not subscribing to that

but that's the conspiracy theory my other side of me says what the fuck were they thinking given Connor Ben $15 million how are they going to get an ROI on that and of course the truth of that is probably they don't give a fuck because they're like fuck you Eddie Hearn we're taking your guy we don't care how much he costs and then the last part of me is like

are you do UFC fighters give a fuck yet this is is Alex Pereira going to stay but um I want 20 million motherfucker yeah I'm a bigger star than fucking Connor bin like is anybody is ilia and arming or not armament uh Islam you know are these champions are these champions going to step up and be like, yo, we see you got the money now, motherfucker. What's crazy about that is, and I don't want to get too far off topic, but I saw this argument on Twitter. I can't remember who posted. I'd love to give him credit, but they were talking about this.

Like, you're like, in your head, hearing that Connor Ben's getting a one-fide deal for $15,000, which, by the way, I'm not, I'm not excusing. I'm just saying, like, that's turkey paying him, not the UFC. Like, the UFC has no money invested in this. This is all Turkey Al-Shake funding it. Like, he's given the burn. Oh, yeah, it is. Like, they're not, Dave, I've been on the financial calls with the TKO people.

Like, they're getting a $10 million fee per event. So every Zufa boxing event, they're getting $10 million from Saudi Arabia to do the event. They're not funding anything. Like, they're not putting any, and they have to, like, they have to disclose that on the books. They're not putting any money into this. This is all Saudi Arabia. So UFC or Zufa is not paying. But those are two different things paying Connor Ben and getting $10 million for the event.

Right. But I'm saying, like, they're not. Like, when he signed him and then it's one fight for $50 million, there's not a penny coming out of the UFC money for that. It's all Saudi Arabia. Turkey's paying that money, just like he paid Tyson Fury and everybody else. So that's neither here nor there. But the reality is like...

That's an important thing, I think. But no, it is. But here's the thing. I saw this on Twitter and they're like, in reality, seeing Connor Bin signed the Zufa boxing should, as you said, Alex Pereira, Islam McCashev, John Jones, whoever you want to say. They should be like, hey, like $15 million,

where fuck am I getting paid this? Like I actually draw. Like one thing I'm saying about Connor Ben, like he's a good fighter, never been a top fighter, never been the top guy. He's been a popular guy in Europe and in England, but he's not like...

He said in England, right? His only draw has been when he fought Eubank twice. It wasn't Connor Ben. That was the fact that Eubank had a rival. Yeah. Right? You know, and Eubank beat him the first time, which made the second fight even bigger, right?

Because it was a good fight. and it was a close fight. Ubank is a big star because of his dad in the U.K., boxing's just different in the UK to begin with. So now it's a rivalry. Yeah. Nobody watched a single other Connor Ben fight. Yeah.

That's the only reason we even know his name right now. I'm a boxing guy. That's the only reason I know his name. I mean, I kind of heard his name before that. You know, if you said it, I'd say, okay, yeah, he's a Walter Waite, whatever. but that was that's what we know about Connor Ben right now yeah but this is he's a Chris Eubank rival but this is this 100% is a move to stick it to Eddie Hearn because Eddie Hearn's been very vocal Zoofing boxing and sucks you're what they're doing his dog shit whatever you're like okay we're gonna take

your guy not the biggest star Anthony Joshua's clearly the biggest star he has we're gonna take the guy who's been with you the longest you rose him up through the ranks you put a lot of money investment in this kid and he's your guy we're gonna take him that that's the win here it's not that. But getting back to what I'm saying about like the whole money thing, I saw someone say, in reality, this should wake up every UFC fighter to say, hold on, this is bullshit. Like, I actually draw and you're not paying me $15 million. But the problem is, and you notice, Matt, and this goes back to the lawsuit and everything else, is that it just doesn't happen.

A couple guys, couple people will do it. We've seen it in the past. It has happened. You know, Connor's spoken up for him, for himself, not for the whole sport or, you know, John Jones for himself. but reality is this never like do you see knows like they know they know this like they've had enough experience doing

this you know they had like I remember when like we had a little bit you remember they had like a little bit of not really an uprising they had a little bit of like people getting a little buzzy a little pissy when it came out to like sage northcut made like 80 grand for his second UFC fight and there were like a lot of fires like this is bullshit he's making 80 grand I've been there for

whatever five years when I'm making 20 and 20 or 30 and 30 but even that it was just like there's a little buzz and it just kind of went away never never spoken about again. CM Punk, same thing. He got paid $500,000 day one. How's it?

Noisy for about a week or two, and then it just goes away. I would love to think that this is going to be like, Islama Kachachia is going to be like, foot down, you're going to give me $10 million to fight, you know, Ian Machado, Gary or Kamar Usman, whoever I'm fighting next to that or I'm not fighting. Matt, you and I both know that's not going to be the case. Like that's just not, that's unfortunately, sadly, that just doesn't happen. It has never happened. I'm not going to say it will, it won't happen.

The odds, yeah, say it's not going to happen, right? 99% not going to happen. I can't help but think at some point something's going to happen, especially with this ZUVA boxing. I've been saying this since the beginning. Like something has to happen at some point. There has to be an inflection point at some point here. That is some time.

Because they are particularly the champions. You know, you could talk about the mid-range guys, a lot of guys. You know, like me, like, you know, I think I was probably paid, for the most part I was paying more than worth. I think there's some fights, you know, I could argue, you know, certain fights, like a main event against Robbie Lawler were 5 million people watched. You know what I mean? Like, okay, well, I probably got kind of robbed there, right?

And overall, yeah, I probably didn't make what, you know, I should have made, whatever. My point is, I can't imagine when you're talking about, that many millions of dollars that people are missing out on that at some point they're not going to wake up and be like I'm fucking done with this bullshit like I'm set for life I'm cool you know if you're Alex Perry you're like look bro I'm set for life I don't have anything to lose let's go you know let's let's fight to fight but I think you'll get that with what it's going to take I just don't know what it's going to take I think you might get that with one or two

people but the problem is when all the lawsuits started when when the disclosure stuff came out a couple years ago, and we found out with written fact that UFC fighters made 16 to 20% of the revenue, whereas every other major sport is 50%. Like, I've been screaming, I've been banging that you can read dozens

of articles I've written about that, where I always put that stat in there. 16 to 20% of the revenue goes to fighters versus NFL, Major League Baseball, NBA, they all get 50%. That's in the contract, they get 50% of the revenue. If that didn't wake up the sport to say we need some real

changes here? I don't know that anything will. Like that to me was like the inflection point. I'm like, I'm like man like even it's like 10% more. You don't know how much more money 10% of the revenue would be for you? They're making 30% of the revenue versus 50. That didn't change anything. And so like a lot of a lot of people thought that the inflection point might even be when they lost the lawsuit. Yeah. Okay. Like we proved in court. Monopoly. Wrong practice. Antitrust. And we're like, oh, cool. We get paid. All right. Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. I thought that was going to be it. Like, when we got the proof in writing that the fighters were making 30% less than every other major sport in the world, I was like, man, if that's not the way, it didn't change anything really.

I mean, I'm not saying, you know, and this, like, while I could say, well, yeah, like, if I'm I'm Elyotiporia and I'm going to negotiate a table for the White House card, I'm saying, you're going to pay me, you know, whatever, you're going to pay me a lot more money. Maybe that one guy does it, or two guys or three, but like, I'm saying, like, you need the sport as a whole to step up. and say, we're not going to take this bullshit anymore. And I just don't think it's going to have it. If it didn't happen with the whole... You're right, because, you know, the other part of that, too, is like... I mean, I'm saying that because, you know, Conner Ben getting 15 mil, and, you know, my theory is prayer out of the Elliott, whatever, somebody's chambers

would be like, oh, we know you got the money now. I'm like, we already know they got the money. Yeah, they've known they've had the money. We've known for, like, you just said it. Since the lawsuit discovery came out and, like, We know they got the money. I mean, we know where all the pennies are going and they're swimming in them like Scrooge Duck, you know, the executives are, not us. I'm not, I'm not going to name names, but I've done a lot of, like, I've done a lot of financial reporting over the last few years since the UFC went public.

And I've done, like, a lot of articles. Like, there's a, TKO's got a financial disclosure this week. I think it's Wednesday. They're dropping their financials for the last quarter and then all of 20, 25. and there's going to be a story about how they did monster revenue. I don't know what it's going to be, 300 million, 300 billion, whatever the number, a ridiculous number it's going to be. I've had fighters retweet that and say, man, look how great the UFC's doing.

It's awesome. We're killing it. We're killing it. Yeah. Yeah, they are. Like, you know, like, and so that's what I'm saying. Like, I just don't think there's going to be that inflection point where it's like, you know, because I, like, they're celebrating the UFC making record revenue, yet not a lot of that's going back

in their pockets. You know what I mean? is Sean Strickland talking about last week? Like he didn't get a bigger paycheck because he went to Paramount. They didn't just come to say, you know what, Sean, we like you, buddy. You draw. You're a controversial motherfucker, but people like you. So we're going to give you an extra 200 grand in your car.

I didn't do that. You know what I mean? Now, when his next negotiation comes up, he'll probably get more money because that's just how the sport works. You stay there longer. I'm sure your contracts went up as you stayed there longer, did more bonuses, did more knockouts. but they're not just going to voluntarily come to you and be like, man, we like you a lot. Here's an extra million dollars. That's just not how business works.

So that's what I'm saying. Like I thought the revenue share would be the breaking point. We're like, man, we're really getting fucked over here. We're only making 20% and every other sports making 50. I don't know if Connor been making 15 million is really going to change much. You're right. You're right. You're right.

Like I said, we knew the money was there. dude I was fighting during that time when that discovery came out it never even crossed my mind to be like oh shit you guys got all this money you have said like you know we live this lifestyle and we love it so fucking much and I've said a million times the vast majority's fighters like they're coming from poor backgrounds most probably aren't very financially educated to begin with they're living the dream you know making you know good money you know what would be consider, you know, not getting their worth, but what would still be considered very good money.

And living their fucking dream. Yeah. You know, getting their dick sucked every day by all the fans and, you know, getting their ego boosted all the time. Every gym they go into, everybody's, you know, looking up to them. And, you know, they don't want to get rid of all that. And, right? And let me throw this out there.

And the UFC, like, you consider and say, well, the UFC doesn't, you know, they are underpaying. They are, blah, blah, blah. but the UFC also is still paying more than anybody else because I just did it. I don't know if you saw you probably didn't see the story last week. Justin James. Remember that name? He was like five times stepped up on short notice.

He was out there. He got busted at a tough enough fight, the tough enough organization in Vegas. He got busted for doing cocaine. He got busted test spots for cocaine. And during the hearing last week, they said, here's your punishment, your month of you,

whatever suspension you get. And we're finding you $200, which is 40% of your purse. Oh, shit. I had to re-listen to it like twice to make sure. I shouldn't I shouldn't even laugh at that. But I'm like, I had to listen to it a couple times to make sure I heard it correctly. Because he's like, we're finding you $200, which is 40.

This is a five-time UFC vet. And he's fighting in a regional promotion. And he made $500. To be fair, that's probably kind of his fault. I mean, that's. Well, I know, but I'm saying like, that's very low. It is. It is.

But I'm saying like that's a five-time UFC veteran on a regional show. 500 bucks. Yeah, and look, like I got a fighter in one championship. Like, I know what he's getting paid. I mean, I know guys that fight in PFL. I know what they're getting paid. You're right. I mean, it's an industry standard thing.

Yeah. And this is why I've said for the longest time. The only answer here is our legislators. They're the quickest motherfuckers on this planet. Did you see last weekend, like, Eurismatic, by the way, it's not his fault, by the way. He went on the Mike who won Great knockout by the way last night Incredible knockout

Knocking out Jeff Neal God it was nasty Afterwards he like basically made a plea To President Trump saying like I can't get my visa fix So I can get out of the country and come back or whatever Like I don't know what the whole deal was And then after the fight of the presser he's like Oh yeah I went backstage president Trump called Dana And they already got to figure it out

Now if you're if you're average Joe citizen And you're not getting your visa How long are you waiting in line? But that's what I'm saying I'm not I'm just saying like they have the administration like they're come on now like we already know just like the Ali acting like it's going to go through so yeah it's like they have this administration maybe they don't have the next one and it's like I mean the next one it'll be just as corrupt too right I mean I know we're not going to get deep into politics on this podcast or anything but it's like you know

they'll just be corrupting the other way possibly you know that's fucking like fucking R.E I mean I think he's a Democrat right like him he might be. be in their pockets the other way. Like, hey, don't fuck up or shit. You guys don't fuck it up either. What are we, what are we seen in the past? It was now it's like, and obviously very, and, you know, Dana and Trump are great friends and okay, fine.

What happened when Biden was, pretty? Nothing changed. It wasn't like, he was like, I'm going after the UFC. He didn't go, fuck. You know what I mean, that's small potatoes for what he's got going on. So like, Trump is all pro UFC. Whatever. I'm not going to, like, I get it. Like, this is the first time there's a president kind of like in the pocket of like a U.S.

Whatever. I'm not, I'm not faulting for that. Which I think is pretty. cool, to be honest. Oh, no, I think it's cool, yeah. No, it is. I mean, God, did I ever think an actual sitting U.S. president would attend a fucking UFC event? No, I never thought that would ever happen and it has happened numerous times.

It is pretty cool. I'm not going to lie about that. But the next administration comes in, let's say it's all Democrats. They're not going to go, fuck. The UFC doesn't matter to them. So they're not going to, like, suddenly like, we're going to reverse everything that Trump every day. No, they're just going to move on and do other shit.

So, like, right now is like they're just taking advantage. What you just is about the only chance. It'd be like, well, all what Trump was fourth, then we're against it. I mean, I'm not the only two. But I think they'll want to unravel a lot bigger shit than fucking the UFC is what I'm getting at. Like, don't worry about a lot of other shit. Yeah, you're right.

Right now they have a president. Yeah, they'll go with, you know, whatever pays them the most, right? Whoever is in their pocket the most. So that's government. People can get in their pockets as quick as they were in fucking the Republican pockets. You mentioned, I mean, Ari's brother, Rahm was one of the people who talked about running for president. Like his brother was the, he was the, was he the, was he the, Chief of Staff for Obama.

So they had people on both sides. Not like they said like they're all Republicans. Like Ari Mangels one of the biggest Democratic donors in the world. So yeah, it's all. I mean, because, you know, not, again, not to get too off topic. But I mean, we can see right now, if we, if we haven't seen more clearly right now how fucking corrupt this shit is with this Epstein file shit. Yeah.

I mean, get the fuck out of here, bro. This is, I mean, I, again, I don't want to get political, man. But it like this is. I've never seen so much mental gymnastics to excuse shit in my life. This is what when we look at other countries, when we talk about their corruption, you know, like Brazil or Russia or China,

we're like, oh, they're so corrupt. It's like, like, I think like we're on that fucking level now, bro. So, but my,

going back to my original point before we, we get into a Bill Mayer show here. The, that's, really the only chance of this changing, right? Because the fighters, I mean, we've talked about this ad nauseum. The fighters, the way that it is built, the way that fighters come into the sport. You're not talking about a bunch of college-educated businessmen coming in this sport

looking to do this as a business and make money. You're talking about a bunch of fucked up people with no other hope in life except to chase this fucking dream. And they get $100,000. They're fucking rich. You could do almost anything you want to them. The UFC has proven that through and through, right? I mean, they make them wear fucking uniforms.

I mean, you and I, you and I both grew up poor. And, like, dude, could you imagine at 19, 20, 21, someone said, we're going to give you $100,000? I would have shit my pants. Exactly. And I'm saying this because I was that guy. And, I mean, to some extent, I fucking still am. I'm not going to lie, like money talks, but, but like I was right.

You would, you would never convince me to side with MMFA in fucking 2010. I'm like, fuck you. Like, I'm, I'm UFC. I remember talking like my post-fi speeches like, guys, everybody support the UFC. UFC is the greatest. Like, this is, the brand is fucking powerful. And, you know, if you, if you're a, if you're a, if you're a Sean, Strickland. I mean, he said himself, like he'd be in a trailer park cooking meth.

Like, but here he is living his life. Like, you really think he's going to fucking walk out on a UFC fight, you know? Like, yeah. That's why I said, like, you know, just like, just to close out on this, you know, just like the revenue sharing and just like the counterbent thing, I don't think anything's going to really wake it out. But we'd love to think it would, but come on now. Like, I think as big as a counterbending is, I think the revenue thing was much bigger. That's a much bigger deal. And it didn't really change anything. So, yeah. Yeah, the only reason that I kind of popped. Wait, like 10 minutes of when the UFC sold for $4 billion.

Everyone's like, $4 billion. And then, like, you know, went away, like six months later, no one's talking about anymore. Yeah, now $7 billion. Yeah. I mean, the only reason that kind of popped in my head just because it was so blatant and clear, and it's another fighter.

Yeah. But, you know, which maybe it will. Maybe it won't. I think the odds are not in the fighter's favor here. Yeah, well, we'll see our favor. Us that are cheering for the fighter. It's not in our favor. Yeah, well, we'll see.

You never know. I mean, like I said, I always root for the fighters. I always say, like, you know, at the end of it all, I call myself a fighter advocate because I don't have a job. I don't get to do what I do without fighters. So I'm always going to be on the fighter's side. But there's only so much you can do. Like, you know, I can talk about it all day,

but ultimately it's up to the fighters to do for themselves. And sadly, that just hasn't really changed much in recent years. You know what I mean? So. Yeah, and to kind of do the other side of my negative Nancy stuff. here's a look there is some positivity to it there's thousands and thousands of fighters myself included that were in complete shit parts of their life and getting to the ufc more or less saved our lives right like there is positivity there you know it sure wasn't what we were worth

the revenue wasn't there you know it's all bullshit it's all fucked up blah blah you know they don't give a fuck about you, you're a commodity, you're disposable. But my life changed. And now I'm in a great spot. You know what I mean? So it's like, there are two sides to that coin. Yeah, no, I agree. 100%.

You're absolutely right. Like, what would your life be if he never got to DFC? Like, what would they? Like, you spent, you've been 15 years. And I like to believe, I, keep it real. Probably my personal, personally, I'd probably be making way more money. I'd probably be, I've said it a million times. Like, if I, if I found something that I was at,

that passionate about, which surely I would have. And if it would have been McDonald's and I started at the cashier, you know, at my, the same age I started the UFC and I sacrificed and dedicated myself as much as I did for the UFC or for that dream of the UFC stuff, I'd be the fucking CEO right now making million dollars a year. No doubt about it. So. Yeah.

But, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I would not have had the experience. the dreams or the you know lived out my dreams that there's a lot I would have missed out on you know probably have more brain cells I guess yeah yeah but you know like I said I mean as you're right you're right you did like it or not you'll see did change your life did you probably did you deserve make more money sure but like I said you did you know did change your life so yeah this girl that's over here right now I probably wouldn't be sitting with me if you were if you were Matt Brown the accountant versus Matt Brown. Yeah, actually, I date a fucking accountant.

I'm a fuck out of here. What do you do? I'm an accountant for a construction firm. Yeah, that's not very good. I'm an executive at McDonald's. Yeah, not quite the same cachet as, you know, 15-year U.S. veteran, most knockouts of Walteroid history. A little more, a little more cachet with that. A little more cloud there, yeah.

Yeah, there you go. All right. We're going to get out of here, Matt. Obviously, I want to get people a chance to support you wherever you got going on. So where can people go? What can people do to support you? I'm the immortal Instagram, Twitter, the Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. Also, what's probably happy to hear people were coming up and talking about the podcast and talking about the good things you're doing?

So it was awesome here. It's crazy, man. I think a lot more people listen than we realize, you know, and particularly the Instagram clips, right? You know, so shout out to him A fighting for putting decent ones out there sometimes. Maybe they should double up on it, you know? Yeah, we know. double up my pay and double up on the clips. We always, it's funny.

Like, everyone's always like, because we get that occasion, like, we've had this podcast for a couple years now. And they'd be like, man, you talk to Matt Brown a lot. I was like, Matt Brown does a podcast. We've done a podcast. And then they're like, oh, and then they listen to podcasts. Like, oh, wow, okay.

Like, I got a message every day. Someone's like, I've been listening to Fighter versus Rider for years. And they just recently started listening to my horror movie podcast. Like, I didn't know you. I don't know a horror movie podcast. I was like, I've been doing a horror movie podcast for six years. Like, hey, I had a good call out at the UFC. the guy, but Scott he was cornered

somebody else, he goes, bro, when are you bringing back legit man shit? He's like, that was the best podcast ever. You never know where they're going to come from, man. You never know where they're going to hear from me or whatever. Yeah, I mean, well, we don't think about it because the way that online and streaming is these days and, you know, it's out there and it's out to the whole fucking world, man.

And it's just, you know, me and you sitting here by himself talking to some silly microphone. and we forget that the everybody in the world could be listening right now man could be millions of people and you know the only time I'd ever fuck with me is when I went on Joe Rogan because I remember the night before I'm sitting there trying to fall asleep and it was like I was having dreams that I'm speaking to the entire world you know and then wake me up you know I'm scared I'm like dude like I'm speaking to literally every person in the fucking world and and it freaked me out going on the show

and, you know, Joe's the best in the world that made you feel comfortable and, you know, turn into a good conversation. But it really fucked with me. But we forget that, like, even a show like this, you know, we're not Joe Rogan's level yet. But it could go out to the whole fucking world, bro. We don't know.

I might say one thing goes viral and you might say something. I remember our old podcast when you said about seeing punk and up on Sports Center. I remember that. Matt Brown is not a fan of CNN Punk coming to the UFC. I remember when that blew up from our old podcast. So you never know what you're going to say that we'll get attention.

So, yeah, it's pretty cool. Oh, by the way, I forgot to mention to you. I interviewed Gable Steven last week, and I told him your opinion of him. And he had a good laugh. And he's like, I really, really appreciate that. So he appreciated that you have so much faith in him. He's very humble guy, so you can tell he's not like,

of course I'd fuck up Tom Aspinall. But he definitely appreciated. He said that. Like, he definitely knew. He was like, yeah, that's pretty awesome. I appreciate that. So I did mention that to him when I talked to him last week. I should have him to come out and trade if he needs a

A coach that's not going to invite him out on Saturday night. I can life coach him a little bit too, you know. John's the goat, maybe not the goat outside the cage, right? Yeah. I'll just do the outside of the cage coaching. Yeah, there you go. There you go. All right, folks, we're going to get out of here.

Obviously, we'll be back next week. This weekend we do have the UFC in Mexico City. It's not a great card. I'm not going to lie to about that. It's not a great card. But we do next week we'll be doing our UFO. O.C. 320 or what number is there? I don't even know what fucking number we're at now.

326. Max Holloway, Charles Olivera. Oh, yeah. Hellify. So we'll talk about that next week. I cannot wait. That's one of my favorite fights coming up this year already. So anytime Max Holloway fights is going to be good. You know Charles Oliver, same thing. So we'll talk about that next week. And obviously, we want to say a big thank you to

tune in the show. Make sure to check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify. And of course, over on the best website in the world, mhmapfiting.com. For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin. We will see you guys next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider. Thanks for tuning in. We will see you then.