MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Sean Strickland Beating Khamzat Chimaev and What To Expect in Ronda Rousey vs. Gina Carano

Episode Date: May 12, 2026

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to Sean Strickland’s upset win over Khamzat Chimaev at UFC 328. Did the judges get it right? And how will Chimaev do if he actually moves up to 205 pounds? Plus we’ll discuss the phenomenal fight between Joshua Van and Tatsuro Taira and preview the upcoming Ronda Rousey vs. Gina Carano card. What should we actually expect from the main event? And who wins between Nate Diaz and Mike Perry? All this and more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the Fighter versus the writer. I'm Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown, and we are in a very big week here, Matt, because we are now 24 hours, 48 hours, whatever it is removed from UFC 328, one of the bigger fight cards of the year.

And, of course, we were rolling into what may end up being the biggest fight card of the year with the Ronda Rousey, Gina Carano car coming up in a matter of days. But we've got to kick things off, of course, talking about UFC 328. Sean Strickland kind of shocked the world, pulled off the upset, beat Hamzaat Chamaev in the main event

to reclaim. the middleweight title. And afterwards, Hamzot apparently told Dana White, I'm done in this weight class. I'm moving up. Matt, what were your thoughts on the fight? I think we were both a little surprised at how it went. Hamzot seemed to have a pretty brutal weight cut.

There were questions, did he actually make weight, blah, blah, blah. He went in there, had a great first round, and it looked like he was drained. But to his credit, he did get his second win to kind of come back. But what did you think of the fight? Did the judges get it right? Yeah, well, with the judges getting it right, I think is the big controversy. Radla. I think a lot of people had a scored for Hamza. I think it could have went either way. I mean, I think there are two potential swing rounds, right? Rounds three and five.

Because I looked at the scorecard and they actually, all the judges scored round three for Strickland. And I thought that was a swing round. But it was round five where two judges had a scored for Strickland. And that was what ended up being the actual judging swing round. And, you know, and I could see either one of those going either way, right? I don't think that's, one of those like no matter who because you know what it kind of reminded me of was um i'm trying to remember um it's a machita fighting somebody but you know but it's basically when um you know you got somebody that's so hyped up and it's so special and then someone unexpected comes in and and is and is kind of beating them up like during the fight you're not really looking at it uh objectively right

you're like no this guy's winning you know what i mean when it's it's that close you're like no like like humsat's winning like there's no way that he's actually losing to street this is his plan that he this is exactly going exactly how he wanted it i kind of had that feeling last night when i was watching the fight even though you know i think objectively i don't think you could argue strickland winning that fight i think i think strickland put on a great performance and um i mean you got to give credit where credits do look strickland has now beat israel out of sanya and hamzat like this guy's you know You know, two-time champion now.

Like, this guy's fucking legend, man. Yeah, it's kind of, I had to score three rounds to two for Sean. I thought Shrekeland won. But like I said, I had them going two, three and five. Three and five being the swing rounds you're talking about. I thought, I thought Sean landed the better strikes, more damage over those two particular rounds. And I didn't really score much for the takedowns or Hamzot landing because he didn't really do anything with them. So I had Sean winning.

But like I said, it was a close fight, close rounds. But the reality is, I mean, not saying this is, the judges clearly don't know. this, but like at the end of the day, if Hamzaat walks up to Dana White and says, I'm done in this division, I mean, really, who can complain? Because at least now you got the title on somebody else that doesn't throw the whole division into chaos again, because if Hamzaa's like, I won a split decision, now here's the belt, I'm moving up, then you're back to square one again. You're like, well, who's going to fight? We do a tournament? What's going on? So, I mean, I don't, Sean won the fight, but it was a very close fight. I was super impressed with his ability to kind of

shut down the wrestling after that first round. And even when Hamza did get him down later in the fight, he couldn't really hold him down, couldn't really do anything with it. I do have to say, like, I'm not trying to, like, throw anybody under the bus here, but, you know, so much of this training camp, we saw videos and Instagram videos all over the place of Homs out working out in California with that, the training lab, the team out there in California with Sam Calavita. I'm not knocking him personally. I'm just saying, like, you know, those guys out there rave about working with him.

What are you doing? Like, he was gassed out. Now, granted, like I said, he came back. He had a second win later in the fight. But after that first round, he looked done. Like, he looked gassed. And he came out and, like, basically pulled. guard more or less in the second round.

I mean, what are you doing? Isn't that the kind of the point of having a great strength and conditioning coach? It's like you're literally in your title, strength and conditioning. And Hansat looked like he was, and when he did wrestle, it was like in those kind of fleeting moments. He didn't go out there and try to dominate on the ground against him. It was like he tried to like, you know, he kind of set it up a couple times later in the fight.

And like I said, he did get a second wind and I think that was that fourth round where he really showed like, wow, okay, he's kind of coming back. But I'm like, you spend all this time working on strength and conditioning. and then the one aspect of that just fails you, like a round end, that's not a good look to me anyways. Like when they make such a big deal about who you're working with, who's getting you ready, and then you struggle making weight, and then you kind of fall apart after the first round. That's not a good look for me, Matt. Yeah, I'm with it.

And really all we could do is speculate on that, right? Was he not in shape? Was it the weight cut? Was it the adrenaline dump? Like, we really just don't have any idea. But, I mean, we could guess a lot of different things. But, again, at the end of the day, we don't know. but what it felt to me like even when he got his quote unquote second wind it was like it wasn't even a full second win like i thought we i think we all

expected him to pursue the wrestling hard and it wasn't like he was you know the the the issue that that that strickland tends to have in all of his fights is that he doesn't win dominantly very often right and he doesn't really threaten enough on the feet where where you know it's like a clear W right he's gonna jab you push kick you and throw right hand every now and then and and and you know he's not really not doesn't tend to drop a lot of power into his punches sit down on him a lot or or throw him real straight and accurate and what that leaves is a lot of open questions right but but Hamzot never seemed to

trust his cardio for the wrestling is what it felt like right he just didn't trust himself like because that first take down when they're both fresh um they're both strong they're both dry all like it looked very easy for him right and and the times when he uh really pursued it it didn't look like it was too hard for him right i mean i think uh you know it certainly wasn't easy wrestling is just not an easy thing to do but it seemed like he was just holding back the whole time and he was kind of like you know that when when strictly is is not threatening him enough on the feet to, you know, create a threat of a finish. Then he's like, okay, well, I'm just going to save my breath here.

But, you know, so when I'm talking about a second win, it's like he got enough second win that he's like, okay, well, I can be competitive on the feet, but I just, I got to save my energy. I can't, you know, I got to get through this somehow. And that's what it felt like to me. Again, it's all speculation, but that's what it felt like watching. And I mean, listen, we all know Sean Strickland is kind of like the death by a thousand cuts. He's not got to go out there and pop him in one shot and put you down. But like, Drickus Dubleuice is a really, really good fighter. A really good fighter. And Hamza took him down at will and held him down for the better part of five rounds. Now, at the end of the fifth round, I think he got reversed one time and Drickus got on the top for like 30 seconds or whatever. But it was pretty much over at that point anyways. But it's crazy to me think last August, he's out there dragging Drickus around the cage like a freaking wounded animal. And then whatever it is eight months later, he can barely go around with Sean Strickland's like, what happened? Like what changed? What changed? What are you doing?

I'm not saying you can't have an injury or other factors to play in this. I think like when Marab, I'm not certainly not taking anything away from Peter Yon, he won that fight, great fight. But I think Marab like ran himself too ragged at year. He already fought four times, five, three times or whatever. For all five round fights, like, dude, it's okay to take a break. But he's like, I want to break a record. Didn't work for him. And Marab didn't quite look like himself.

Now, I think part of that was Peter Yon looked incredible. But, you know, he didn't look like the normal Marab we had seen to that point in the year. it's okay to be like I have an issue here and not take that fight but like with with homzot it's like it was literally the polar opposite of the drickest fight like he got him down that first round and he just kind of abandoned it and even when he did take him down later in a fight he didn't dominate on the ground he kind of took him down and Sean just kept getting back up and it was weird like how do you change how do you how does your physicality how does everything change that much in eight months like you literally look like a night and day fighter from what you were in August last year when you ragdolled he raged old he raged Ragdoll drink us across that cage for five rounds. He did it for one round. He did he ragdoll, but he took him down, took his back. Sean defended, stayed very calm, very patient. And then when it was between rounds, he looked at, oh, my God, you need to get him an oxygen tank or something because he's about to fall over on the stool.

And like it or not, visuals matter, you know what I mean? Like when you're coming out there and you don't look like, like, Hamzons doesn't even shoot and he's not even trying to go for a takedown. He's pulling guard. You're like, what is going on out here? So, yeah, very weird performance from Hamzot, and credit to Sean for. you know kind of stick into his guns you know not overextending himself it's kind of weird he didn't put more push kicks like when it was clear that

Hamzat wasn't really looking for the takedowns I thought maybe he'd kind of keep kick him to the body more he didn't really attack the body which was kind of weird because Hamzad's kind of drained I thought maybe you could put him out of there that way but either way I don't Sean won the fight but it was very close but yeah man and what can you say about Sean Strickland dude love him or hate him man this dude goes out there

and finds a way to get it done it beats Israel out of son no one saw that coming he beats Hamza Chamaix. Nobody saw that coming. Two-time champion, dude, you can't erase his credentials, man. He's a phenomenal fighter, and you don't have to love him, but, man, you've got to respect what he can do out there. Yeah, it's crazy, man. He's probably the worst-looking champion in history.

And I love the guy. It's not an insult. I mean, you don't have to look good. You have to get the job done, and that's what he does. He gets the job done. And Strickland, that's the one part with everything you're talking about there that we have to add is, and we, we, we, you tend to be pretty careful about this on this podcast.

He's like, we can't, we can't just chalk it all up to Hamzop, his weight cut, or whatever. He showed up. He fought the best he could when the condition he was in, whatever condition that was. Strickland showed up professionally and did what Strickland does. So you have to give the credit to Strickland. You know, he was able, like you said, he got taken down in the first round, got dominated in the first round, got held down the whole time, but was able to defend. and you got to think that was part of his game plan. I think he'd even talked about it.

You're not going out there planning on winning the first one or two rounds, but you gas him out and you start to dominate in the end. And that's exactly what he did. And you can't take away from the fact that cardio, weight cutting is a part of cardio. It is a part of the preparation for a performance in the octagon. I've had bad weight cuts and it fucked me up on the night of the fight. It is a part of the performance.

You know, you can see, you can talk all day about who's more skilled, you know, you know, if this would have happened. If this would have happened, it doesn't fucking matter. You get 25 minutes and Sean Strickland showed up professionally and showed up, did what he does. And he did it pretty fucking well, you know, considering. Can I ask, this is away from the fight. Sean wins incredible that he's back there as champion again. But I'm not sure if he saw after the fight. You know, they were, they dapped it up at the beginning of the fight, they touched gloves,

and they were like, at the end of the fight, Hans-on, and I thought that was a pretty cool gesture to put the title around Sean's waist. I thought that was kind of cool thing. But then, like, afterwards, it's almost like, don't tell the people the magic trick. Like, don't, when you watch a magician when you're a kid, you're like mystify when they make a rabbit appear out of the hat. You don't really want to know the trick of how they made that rabbit appear out of the hat. You just want to enjoy the mysticism of it all.

But Sean came out afterwards like, yeah, you know, we sold the fight. You know, we had to sell the fight. We wanted to sell the fight. I don't really have anything against him, blah, blah, blah. I understand. This was one of the nastiest rivalries going. I mean, you know, Hamzak kicking him at the press conference to the point where, like, we're at the way ends,

and like, Dana has them, like, 15 feet apart because he can't risk them getting close to each other. They're shouting, they're cursing. I mean, it was a pretty rowdy scene. And, like, we're all waiting for the video, and them, like, charging at each other in a hotel. Like, we were just waiting to have that, like, post-by, the video. And then afterwards, they're just like, oh, yeah, no problem.

We were all good. Yeah, I really never a problem with him was a good dude. And I'm like, Sean, don't. Don't mess up the magic trick, man. You built a great rivalry there. I don't care if you're never going to fight him again. I'm not saying it ruins anything. The viewership is what it is.

But when you kind of let people in on the secret, in a little way, you kind of ruin your next fight. Because even when Connor lost to Nate the first time, and I remember interviewing Connor after that fight, and he was pretty reflective and, like, you know, honest with himself, oh, I had a really bad night, maybe I'll get further away, like all those kind of things. Two weeks later, man, he's right in on it again.

He's going after Nate and they had to end after the second fight. They hugged it out, great decision, but then a week later, there's still, you know, there was none of like, kumbaya moment where they're like, oh, we're best buddies. We were all just faking it to sell a fight. Like, because Dana was talking about, like, the greatest rivalries, the most heated rivalries. They're talking about Connor, Kabeb, and he talked about Jones, Korme, and he had Hamzaat, Sean 3. I wouldn't put anywhere there now because, like, Jones and Kormier clearly still don't like each other. That's very obvious they don't like each other.

I don't think you could put Kabeb and Connor in the same room without a fight breaking out between him or their teams. I'm not saying it needed to be that way, but it felt that way. And when you tell us afterwards, you're like, actually, there was a mirror behind the door, and what are you? I don't, you just ruined it. Like now, like maybe, listen, it looks like Hamzot's going to go to 205, so it's probably a moot point anyways. But like, in any other scenario, he lost a split decision, and Hamzaat's undefeated, he'd been incredible up to this point. You could, you could, you could, you could, and I'm guaranteeing it would probably do big money. It would still do a big fight, and they'd go right back out.

after each other. Now, I know he's going to light heavyway, but now what part, like, now you know it's bullshit. If they didn't come, oh, we hate each other now. No, you don't. You just told us you didn't hate each other. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. And, yeah, they certainly, you know, uncovered the little magic trick there. But, you know, ultimately, like, I respect it to, though, right? Like, that's two grown-ass men in there who went to war and showed respect for each other afterward, no matter what was said. And I do have a certain level of respect for that you know regardless if you know they rematch or not and and started up again because you know what they they do it again most people they're

gonna fucking buy into it again right I see it and look Strickland you know you know the part that I didn't really get was you know I want to sell the fight like what what exactly are you selling right like everybody's gonna watch the fight's gonna watch the fight and you're getting paid what you're getting paid you're not getting pay per view because more people are watching this fight and you know when he's saying like some of the things he was saying um i don't know i didn't really see that as a cell is more like he's just simply insulting the guy right you know like saying you're dog shit coward like you know that that doesn't make me buy into it but i guess i could see where a lot of other people would so you know i'm not i shouldn't

really even say that because a lot of people you know really love that stuff but look, my ultimate point is, look, I respect it, man. Like, I know exactly what you're saying, and I don't disagree with you, because then afterwards you're kind of like, like, like, oh, wait, you just said all that shit just so I would tune in. You know what I mean? You didn't really put on a great fight either, you know? It wasn't like some, it wasn't banned Tyro.

Yeah, I don't mind, like, putting, you know, putting it behind you, shaking hands and having, like, a cool moment after Friday. Like, I kind of hope everyone would do that to some extent. I don't want everyone jumping over the cage to attack Dylan Dan. It's like, Khabib did. But I'm saying, like, it's cool. But then, like, afterwards, you're like, you know what? I really do hate to do, but he came out there in battle.

Like, we can have that respectful moment. Like, you know, like I said, with Connor and Nate. But then, like, you just, like, it was over. Like, he literally just like, yeah, and none of it was real. I'm not, I'm paraphrasing. But that's basically what he says. Like, none of it was really real. And I'm just like that.

Come on, man. Like, you know, you just like, like, that's, I appreciate the honesty, I guess. and it's cool that you guys can dapp it up and kind of put bygones behind you in that moment. But I'm like, dude, like, you just sold this on, like, a great rivalry, and now you're just telling us it was all fake. I don't, I always say, like, because I, by the way, I'm going to mention, I was going to mention this during our next segment.

We have a special interview at the end of the show. Nate Diaz, I had a chance to catch it with Nate Diaz before his fight with Mike Perry, which was a really cool interview. Stay tuned for that later in the show. But I'd ask Nate, not to ruin the interview, but Asinid is like, you know, you've not been really heated with Perry. It's not been like, you know, nose to nose, like got to separate him. He's like, basically Nate told me, he's like, I don't get that with anybody unless they get

like that with me first. He's like, you know, like, I had that with Connor because, you know, me and Connor kind of went back and forth and he said, you know, me and Maddhvadol were cool though. He's like, I really had no problem in Masmethal. And he's like, more or less, you know, you mess with me, I'll mess with you back. And I respect that. Like, he's not going to create, like, he's a big Jim Miller fan. I mean, like he fought Jim Miller at one point.

Like, I don't think Nate would ever say a bad word about Jim Miller. Like, you know what I mean? like he's not going to create it. And he basically said, I'm not going to create a fake rivalry just to please people. I was like, I appreciate that honesty. I really do. So don't create a fake one. I'm not saying like beef with Hamzaa just because you're beefing with Hamzaa,

but if it seems real and it definitely seem real to me and we do know they had history training together. I was like, man, this seems so real. And then to come out afterwards and tell us it was all fake, I'm just like, or mostly fake. I'm like, dude, come on, man. Like you know the interesting part about this whole thing is we, particularly someone, in your situation where you have spoken about or we have spoken about Strickland specifically

and you're like hey you know some of the shit he says I don't agree with 90% of it but he's fucking authentic and I think that's where it probably bothers you a little bit extra because he's like because now he comes out he says hey all that shit I said it wasn't authentic motherfucker yeah like that's what I said like I weirdly like when hearing Sean speak even last time after the fights like he was you know weirdly introspective like you know

He actually had some really cool thoughts about, like, you know, talking about you being a fan of George St. Pierre coming up. And when you met George and George said, you know, he's like, I'm such a fan of you and you're an icon, you're a legend. And George told him, look where you're at right now. You're fighting and I'm watching you. I know that was a really cool quote. I was like that's a really cool moment to share with George St. Pierre.

That's cool. And like I said, I don't agree with a lot of what Sean Strickland says, but he is authentic. Like I appreciate he's just speaking from the heart. He's not trying to play the game where he's like, I got to be the nice guy or I got to be the bad guy. I got to be whatever. What I'll add to that real quick, though, is, you know, he's so authentic.

He's even telling you, hey, I said all that bullshit to tell you on the fight. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, dude, come on, man. Like, you know, just let, like, you know, like, you can put bygones behind you. You can shake hands after the fight, but you don't have to tell us, like, oh, yeah, it was all made up. Like, dude, like, you just, because, like, I don't, like, I know he's not going to have that kind of same rivalry in Nasredine and M-Eval. That's just not going to happen. Emavall barely speaks to English, and, you know, they're not going to have this kind of back-and-force because,

just not going to be that kind of energy. Maybe he runs it back with Drickas for a third time. Maybe they'll kind of amp things up because they fought twice before. I don't know. But like, Hamzot was the one. And you beat him. You beat the boogeyman. You beat the guy that everyone's always unstoppable.

He's going to be undefeated. He's going to win titles in three divisions. Blah, blah, blah. You beat him and you hand him his first loss. Like, I'm not saying you should dance on his grave or anything, but like relish in what you did, especially knowing how bad it was leading into the fight. Because now when I go back, if I ever watch a press conference clip or if I watch that way in again, I'll be like, yeah, it was all bullshit.

That just takes away, you know what I mean? Like, I don't, you know, it's just, it really doesn't matter, I guess, but I just, I appreciate the authenticity of like, I know Daniel Cormier and John Jones are never going to be friends. Like, they may respect each other, and D.C.'s told me many times, I have a lot of respect for John. He's a great fighter. But, or, you know, whatever, Connor Kabeef's the same kind of thing.

They're never going to be friends. They're never going to be allies. They're never going to sit in the same room together. You know what, man, we did a great rivalry. Nope. You get those guys in a room together. you better have security. There's going to be a brawl in there.

I'm not saying it needed to be that way, but it just kind of takes away some of the lustre and you're like, yeah, it was all bullshit. And by the way, you said, like, it wasn't like it was this great, amazing fight. Like, it was an okay fight. It was a, you know, all right fight. It wasn't terrible, but definitely wasn't like...

The only thing that made a great fight was the rivalry, keeping it real, right? I mean, if this was a prelim fight or just simply not a main event that was hyped up to be what is, you know, two of the best in the world, which it actually is, you know you would have left the room and cooked a hot dog and come back at the end of the fight

because i mean there was nothing really exciting about the fight i mean it looked like a sparring match most of the time and it was really shocking to me that you know you know that neither one of them really decided to pull the trigger because i mean strickland looked like he had moments where he could have pulled the trigger because hamzat was gassed and uh and hamzad i mean obviously with his cardio issues that he had last night. He wasn't really able to pull the trigger, but it felt like he let, like Strickland let him hang in there. But he was just, he was confident with his jab.

I mean, it worked out for him, you know, he can't say anything bad about it, but, you know, he was confident in, look, I'm outlanding you and I'm just touching you up. I don't need to do more than this, where I thought he had moments where he could have really, pulled the trigger and went for it. I agree. Real quick, before we get to the co-main event, Hamzot looks like he's going

to 205. I know I think Sean said this. couple of people said this, like probably an easier division. But 20 pounds is a lot. We've seen, I mentioned, like, Luke Rockhold tried it, didn't work out, got his jaw broken. You know, Chris Weidman tried it. Did not work out for him. I understand Hamzot's a beast, not denying that, and I will say

light heavyweight is not what it once was. But I'm not convinced he's just going to go up there and just wrecked shop. Like, I understand light heavyweight is not great, now and it's not like the best division but like i don't like homzot to beat ankyov i'm being honest but they're right now i don't know that he beats magabat ankelai

that dude's a really good wrestler he's massive he's a huge guy you know like okay maybe maybe a year he fight i think that would be interesting and when alberg comes back i think it's been like as you continue to go up in weight classes you're going against bigger and bigger guys and i think homzot's a monster absolutely do and everyone's like oh

he's gonna wreck shop by no colo rooster he's like oh he's going to destroy everybody i'm not sold about it yet especially like if you have weight cutting issues now, clearly he's not walking around anywhere close to under 95 pounds, but I don't think he's walking around like 250 either. Like, you know what I mean? So I don't know, like, I don't know that everyone is built to just continuously jump up, up, up and away.

I know, like Robert Whitaker's going up to light heavy weight. I don't know that I love that for him either. Like, you know what I mean? Like he was not the biggest middle way. He was a, you know, a small middleweight. He's going up and now he's going to be fighting guys for like, have like eight, nine inch reach advantages over him. I don't know that I love that for him.

But, you know, credit for creditors due light heavyweight isn't great right now. but like I would I right I'm saying right now I would pick macamad and Kaliv to beat hamzat Shama if I wouldn't say that about a lot of their middleweight like I would not even look like he did last night I wouldn't say oh well Emma ball is going to beat him or this guy's going to be I don't know strictly had a great game plan he worked it out well but I don't know that I don't think what I'm getting at something is guaranteed that homesteadsaw is going to show up at 205 he's just going to wreck everybody for sure yeah I mean it's not guaranteed at 185 obviously either right so you know that's that's that's his game man it's not guaranteed to so far John Jones is really the only person that's done it for a long time at that level. And, you know, even him, he got easier fights as they kind of went on. But regardless, you know, when you compare him to like someone like Whitaker going up, I think the difference is like Whitaker's like a speed guy, you know, and he's going to be much faster than the 205 risk for the most part.

And having the not cutting weight should really help with that, right? you know, and he's just going to be going against bigger guys, and he's always had tremendous takedown defense. But Hamza, I think the fear there is his power going to carry over his strength, right? Because, I mean, that's his game where he's the most dominant. You know, maybe his striking will come along someday. It's not there now, I don't think, to beat the guys like Alberg. And, you know, Yuri's always kind of a wild card or Ancalae, for instance.

you know, I think the striking, he's got a hard time there, right? Might win some, maybe not, right? I don't know. But, you know, his game is he's going to put you against the fence, take you down and grind on you. And when you're dealing with bigger, at least as big and very strong guys, you know, that's the question is if that's going to carry over or not. And remember, I know this is there are totally different fighters,

but remember when Israel went up to 1-8, went up to 205, you could try to get a second belt. Got overpowered, yeah. He's going to crush Yombovich. It's not going to be a good fight. They were just setting it up for Israel to become a two-division champion. And Yombovich is like, slow down. He's got to fight me first.

And he got overpowered. He got outgrabbled. He got muscled around because he just wasn't as big and his physically strong. And Yombovich is a really good fighter. But everyone just assumed, oh, he's going to go up there and he's going to wreck shop. He's going to be a two-dov didn't work. Remember there was Izzy and John Jones? Like that was the thing they were going to fight each other.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Couldn't get past John. And he's like, going back to $1. That's the biggest. That's the biggest jump. I mean, outside, I guess, technically going from light heavyweight to heavyweight. But, you know, most, like, even, there are big, big heavyweights, but a lot of the greatest heavyways, like King of Alaska's was like 230.

You know, Stephen Meotche's 230, Fador, 230. But this is a big jump. And so I'm just, all I'm saying is Israel, Luke Rockhole, Chris Wybin, these are all champions who went up and it didn't work out for them. So I'm just saying, caution. Don't think Hamza is going to go up there and just wreck everybody. Let's see him fight there first against a legit competitor and see how he does, because he may struggle.

He may struggle with somebody of you. We don't know. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You know, we can't assume anything in this sport. If that's one thing we've learned, right? We can't assume a single thing because whatever you think is going to happen, the opposite is eventually going to happen if it hasn't already happened. And that's just the sport, man.

So, you know, I'm not going to assume that Hamza is going to go up there and rec shop. I think it, like you said, I think it's a tough call for him. I mean, I think he's going to be comparable size, I think. I think he'll be well fit for that weight class. It's just a matter of, you know, can he over-strength those guys? Because, I mean, that's kind of what he's done a lot of. I mean, he's got an amazing technique, but, you know, and also, is it going to fix his cardio issues, right? Is it just the weight cut that's his cardio issue?

And I don't put it past that. Like, I think that's a very feasible thing that the weight cut is just killing them. And that's what it looked like to me last night. I mean, I could name my own, you know, it gets speculation and it could be a million different things. But, you know, I've experienced it myself. Like, I've literally lost fights because I had a bad weight cut. And he's cut more weight than I ever did. So, you know, I can sympathize with that to some extent.

Yeah. Co-mate event, Joshua Van and Tatsuio Attire. What an incredible fight that was, man. And Van looked awesome. Tyra looked awesome. Like, what a great way. And that was, they said classic striker versus a grappler, but it's not going to play out that way. Boy, did they ever play out that way in a good way.

Like Tyra was, Tyra's toughness, dude, like, what an amazing. Like, that dude looked done. It was the second round when he got dropped and you're like, oh, it's over. He somehow found a way to come back. And then Van, every time he got taken down, he just found a way to scramble free. And Tyra is so good on top. Yep. And he just could not maintain control on Joshua Van.

and then on the feet, my God. Remember back in the day we always did talk about John Dodson's speed? Remember that? That was like the thing. John Dodson's so fast. Dude, Van is so fast with his hands. It's like the combination that put Tyra out, he hit him to the body like three times and into the head.

And I think I missed like four of the punches because it happens so quick. I was like, where did he hit him right now? Like that dude, I was so impressed with that performance last night. Dude, I don't know if we've ever seen a better striker versus glopler matchup where both guys were doing what they wanted to do on such a high level and so well. And Van was just the one that was able to finally finish with what he wanted to do. Like Tyre was doing what he wanted to do. He was getting near submissions. He was getting takedowns.

Van was doing what he wanted to. He was getting up. He was landing shots. Like it was, in my opinion, that was one of the best. I've ever seen in the UFC at least. I mean, that was a tremendous fight, such high-skilled level. I mean, when you look at a lot of the nuances that were going on, I mean, these guys just fought tremendously.

And I would argue a little bit about Van and his speed, because it wasn't, from my viewpoint, it wasn't so much as speed that was taken him off, but his ability to judge the distance, His ability to see the opening when it was there. His ability to be accurate with his throw shots that mean something and his ability to move at the right times in and out. Again, the nuances, I mean, you could, I think that's one of the best fights to break down and study

that I could remember, at least in recent history. I mean, I've probably seen better fights. But the skill level of both those guys is what made it such a great fight. beyond just, you know, your old Leonard Garcia fight, where it's just like, you know, two guys just winging wild shots, which is always fun. But when you see them doing it as such a high level of skill, both of them show toughness, right?

I see a lot of people talking, you know, I'm following Twitter last night and seeing a lot of people talking about Tyrus toughness. Like, what about Josh Vance toughness? I mean, he got taken down and seemingly dominated more than once. So, like, oh, this is it here. You know, I felt that way a few times. And he found a way to just keep working his way out of those situations and put it back on tire. What a beautiful, beautiful fight.

I loved that he pulled off a couple. He didn't knock him out. He pulled off a couple times. The old Eve Edwards against Edson Berto. Remember that when Edson Berto was going for a takedown? And he jumped, knee kicked him and knocked him out. Remember that back in the, I think it was Strike Force days or whatever, Elite X-C? He did that a couple times.

Tyra had him on a single leg, and Josh cracked it with a knee, and it kind of got him loose and got him out of there. I think that's what also impressed me about Ty about Van, because so much of what Van has done is UFC Kerr has been boxing, and he's got great boxing, going to the head, going to the body, really good combinations. But he mixed things up last night with the knees, the kicks. He was veering up his attacks, and I was just super impressed with that. Because I think, like, when I talked about, like, Sean Strickland didn't throw a lot of teep kicks up the middle, which is usually one of his best weapons, kind of teap kick into the body. he kind of went away from that. And I had a thought, like maybe it's because of the takedown thread.

He didn't want to throw a lot of kicks. We saw that with Walking Buckley. Every time he threw a freaking kick, Sean Brady took him down. But Van showed no fear of that. He's like, all right, well, you catch me my kick. Fine, you take me down and get back up. But he was throwing knees. He was throwing kicks, lightning quick hands.

It was just super impressive. And you got to give credit to Tyre as well, because there were a couple times where I'm like, oh, my God, this is over. And he just frowned away, man. Can I ask you, I don't want to put, there's nothing negative to say about this. fight. It was an incredible fight.

But what did you feel about the stoppage? Because I thought it was a little early. I thought they could have let it go a few more seconds. If he let it go a few more seconds, I wouldn't have been mad. I wouldn't have been mad. I wouldn't have called a late stoppage. The fact that he stopped it when he did, I also was not mad. I did not think that was a terrible stoppage. And I've seen a lot of posts on Twitter about people saying it was an early stoppage. I did not feel that way. I felt like the end was there. And, and, and, you know, and, you know, Tyra had turned his back away from him and took a punch that dropped him as he had his back turn. After taking, you know, three, four, maybe more solid shots before that.

Like, it was, if he let it go, like, I don't think anybody would have complained. But the fact that he stopped it when he did, I don't think it was a bad stoppage. I don't think it was like a minority there. I don't think it was an egregious stoppage. There's one of the worst stoppages, trust. For sure. In that moment, I was like, I just give like a few, you know, because I think the reason, and I understand you got to judge it in the moment.

That's what referees are supposed to do. By the way, Vitor Shalind Hibero, who's the referee of a legend in the sport of his own right, great fight in his day. I'm not taking anything away from the stuff. Like I said, I think it was a terrible stoppage. I'm just saying, like, what we saw in that fight were like after that initial knockdown, because we saw the referee rush in, like he was going to stop, but then he backed out when clearly like Van got his,

or when Tyre got his wits about him when he got dropped that second time in the second round. But I'm just like, man, we've seen this guy. Like he's like, he's a zombie. You can't quite put him away. And then in that moment, like he drops, just like, it's over. I understand, like, referees had the hardest job in the world. And you probably, you probably did save him from potential damage going on that. But I'm just like, man, in that moment, like, give me five more seconds.

Let him handle a couple more punches. Maybe he grabs a leg. But hey, you're not wrong. I don't think it was a terrible stoppage. I'm just like, can I just. I just wish we could have given just a few more seconds to try because, like, he was clearly awake. He never gotten dropped and, like, went unconscious and, like, woke up again. We've seen that had plenty of times.

But you're not wrong. I don't think it was a terrible stoppage. I'm just, like, in that moment, knowing what tire had done in that, if I'm, like, give him one more, give him five more seconds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. And, like, that's not a hill I would die on. Like, if someone, you know, just absolutely hated that stoppage, like, I'm not going to sit here and argue with you. I'd be like, yeah, okay.

I think it was an okay stoppage because we also have to take into account the amount of punishment that Tyra had taken over that whole fight it's not just those last that I mean that's the way fans look at fights right it's the last five seconds is all that matters and like Tyra had taken a lot of damage you've been dropped more than once I believe if I remember correctly been dropped more than once I mean he was like clearly slowing down now he's turning his back it's to find stoppage. And look, again, it's not a hill I'm a die on, but I'm not going to complain about a stoppage like that. And here's what I also love about that fight. All fight week long, Van and Tyre were like the afterthought. And I get it because Chimaevin Strickland has so much heat. I get it.

They were just kind of there. And I talked to both of them before the fight. Didn't have a bad thing to say about each other. They're very respectful. You know, they're just like there. And so they were just kind of there. Then they go out and put on the best fight of the night by a mile and have that kind of crazy war.

And you know everyone was tuning in because they're getting ready for Strickland Chimaya. So it's like, hopefully these two guys get some deserved, like, shine off of this fight because they were kind of forgotten the whole entire week. You're like, there's another title fight in this card. And then they go on and have that kind of fight. You're like, now, you know, Van's going to probably rematch Pantosia, which is good. I can't wait for that one. And then whoever tire fights next, like, main event, co-main event, and he's going to get more attention because of how many people tuned in. who kind of coincidentally watched a co-main event

to get to the main event, I think it's nothing but good things for them. And my question is, how does he do against Pantosia? Because when that first fight happened, I didn't really think he had a great shot against Pantosia. I mean, I thought that, you know, I knew he was skilled and he's good,

but I was like, man, he's kind of young. I'm not sure if he's ready for a Pantosia. He has a lot of high-level championship experience. And, you know, there's got to be one of the top fighters in that weight class, right, in history. and now after watching that I'm like bro this is a fucking fight this is a very interesting fight especially with Pantoja coming back from an injury like that that throws a whole loop in how I feel about that fight but with that said you know I

want to see I want to see Tyra get a win I'm hoping you know whoever he fights I don't want to wish anything against anyone else but I hope he gets a win and van wins and they rematch because I want to see that one again I want to I want them to that back. I think Tyrol will come in better prepared, you know, and I think it could be a very interesting rematch. Yeah, it's interesting too because like Pantosia is more of a pure grappler, whereas Tyra's a bit more of a wrestler. He's a wrestler and a grappler. He's a wrestler. Can he get Van down the way that Tyra did? Like that's going to be a real question because, and we've seen like Pantosha's got pretty good stand-up, but I don't know if he's got Joshua Van

level stand-up. Like, that's going to be the issue. He takes a lot of punishment too. And that's where I fear in that fight, right? He takes a lot of punishment. Van is very good addition to out punishment, as we've seen. Yeah, I mean, he had a very close fight with Steve Ursaig. And no, I think Steve Versaig. And no, I think Steve Versaig's a great fighter, but, like, Van's stand-up is better than that. Like, I think, you know, personally, it's so.

And by the way, the other one I want to see is Van vansmanal cop. I mean, the striking exchanges and that would be insane. So, flyway's killing. Could you imagine there was a time when they were going to get rid of the Flyway Division? Like, think about all the great flyway fights we're talking. We got Copp and Corruchi are going to fight in June. Like, that's coming up. Dude, this division's on fire.

I love it. And they're doing so. And by the way, we're seeing great finishes. Like, not a lot of decisions, great finishes. So, yeah, Flyway's killing it right now. I mean, those are usually the best fights as the littler guys, man. Even in boxing, me, look at in a way right now. I mean, he's got tremendous fights every fucking time.

It's just people, for whatever reason, they want to see the bigger guys. I mean, I guess I get it, right? like it's a big knockouts and it's especially when you got like a derrick lewis character who's you know the the big kind of chunky guy or daniel cormier you know not really ripped up so everybody kind of relates to him a little bit and then you know he goes out there and i think there's also an aspect of like knowing that you couldn't beat the guy right because everybody feels like they could beat up joshua van right some some big you know 210 220 pound bodybuilders like i can fuck him up he's just a little guy but but then you know you know you're not

You know, when they look at, you know, some heavy, like D.C. or something, they're like, all right. Yeah, I wouldn't, I couldn't mess with him. So I think there's that aspect. But, but, like, me and you hardcore fans of the sport, I like to see the skill. I like to see the speed. I like to see the movement. I like to see the feints. I like to see the whole gambit all across the board. And that's what the littleer guys bring. That's what I always say, like when it comes down to the most talented fighters, when I talk about the greatest fighters, best, you know, I think the most talented fighters come down for me. It's always Demetrius, George St. Pierre, and John Jones. Just pure talent. Just pure talent.

Now, I know John Jones is a bigger guy. He's kind of like the anomaly, so to speak, because he's like heavyweight or even heavyweight. But George was that way, and Demetrius was on another level. Like, that guy watching him work was like, how the fuck do you beat this guy? What do you do? Like, what do you do to beat this guy? So, yeah, it's remarkable. And like I said, I think Van set himself up for an even bigger matchdown against Pantosia,

because he was a massive underdog the first time around. Yeah. I don't think he will be. much of an underdog now. No, that line's going to be real interesting. I can't wait to see what that is. Yeah, so Van and Tyra was like the highest level of mixed martial arts, right?

Like that's like one of those like, because it had everything. Now we're going into, I think like an equal level of just amazing skill, even fight. I think I know where you're going with this. Ronda, Rousey, Gina, Carrano, Matt Brown. That's where we're going with this. This is like Van Tira part two, right?

Yeah, another striker versus Grappler. match up. Can't wait. We are six days removed or whatever it is now from Ronda Rouse and Gina Carano. Of course, Francis Ingano, Philippe Lentz, and yes, Nate Diaz against Mike Perry. Remember, I'll have my Nate Diaz interview at the end of the show. Matt, we've talked about our anticipation. You kind of felt dirty for it, kind of like the Jake Paul, Mike Tyson fight.

I think if you weren't doing this podcast, you probably wouldn't watch this fight, but obviously we're going to have to talk about it so you're going to watch it kind of out of sheer obligation. Realistically, though, like, what are you? You can't really expect anything because I don't know what to expect. You got one girl who's been out for 10 years, another one's been out for 17 years. I've talked to Gina's coach, John Wood, who is a great guy. He's promised me she's looking great.

I've talked to her training partners in the gym. She's training hard. She's working hard. She hits like a truck. I talked to a couple of people who are working with her, and they said, man, she's looking good. But looking good in the gym is not looking good in the fight, and Rhonda hasn't looked good in her last couple of fights. It's been 10 years since that happened.

and Gina's last fight was in 2009. So what are you expecting? Is it going to be ugly? Is there going to be any level of skill? What are you expecting out of this fight? I don't know. Are we doing picks here? I mean, I guess.

I think I already said earlier. On paper, I think Rhonda should win. I mean, the sport advances. And like, if you were telling me Ronner-Rousy is going to fight Kayla Harrison right now, I would say Kayla Harrison is going to chuck her to the ground and beat the absolute shit out of her. And that's knowing that Ron is a very good judoka. But she was a bronze medalist.

Kayla's a two-time gold medalist. And it's going to have a lot of size and power on her. I would pick Kayla to ragdoll Ronda Rousey right now, my opinion. But Ronda Rousey was really good in her era when she was ahead of everyone else until people caught up with her. When Holly Holmong caught up with her and obviously Amanda Ninnis caught up with her. Gina comes from the era before that. Like, you know, Ronda, like Gina wasn't even around during Ronda's rise.

Like when Rhonda was throwing Misha Taita around, Misha Tait's a very good fighter. She is. She's a very skilled fighter. Rhonda was tossing her around. Gina was from before that. So, like, I'm not saying you can't grow and evolve, but Gina's 43 years old. She hasn't fought in 17 years. I don't know what we should expect.

Like, in any other world, if this was Ronda against Amanda again or Ronda against Kayla, I'd say, you're going to probably get hurt again. This is probably not a good idea for you right now. But she's fighting somebody from, like, the era before even she was around. So I don't know, and I know Gina's been training for six months, Matt. Six months sounds like a long time. It's not a long time when you've been out for 17 years. Like what are we?

You know, if Gina was coming back and fighting some bum and, you know, yes, absolutely just skill level and size and power should probably do it. Say what you will about Rhonda Rousey at the end of her career. It did not go well. But before that, she was dominant. She was a very, very competent athlete at that moment. I just don't see how this ends well for Gina, if I'm being honest. Yeah, you know, I'll go against the grain since Lord knows what's going to happen.

You know, I think it's going to be an ugly fight for the most part. But here's why I'm going to go with Gina Carrano. I think Gina is naturally a little bit bigger than Rhonda. I think that during this downtime, I don't know either one of them personally, but I'm going to assume just from the personalities that I know online and in the media and whatnot, that Carano's probably attempted, at least, to stay in better shape. Whereas Rhonda, I think, just kind of quit training altogether and was just out. And now she's coming back.

And lastly, Rhonda is a lot more predictable, right? Like, she's not, for one less, she doesn't go in and shoot double legs, right? It's going to be a judo style takedown, which is, you know, kind of a little bit more predictable, right? You know, she's got to get in a clinch and try to attempt to throw. And if Corona, if Gina does like some of the basic things, like she should, she should be able to mitigate that. And with that said, it'll probably be ugly as hell. Ugly as all hell. And it's going to be, you know, nothing to write home about.

But I'm going to go Corona and plus, you know, I'm a bigger fan of Corona too. So I guess maybe it's a little bit of bias there. Well, I mean, the reality with Rhonda is you got a question, like, where's her chin at? Because she talked forever about, you know, she had brain damage and she, remember all I felt out of flight of stair. I don't either trust what she says. No, but I know, but I'm saying. And she, like, she, like, woke up in the morning with a headache one day. She's like, oh, that's from my fight from two years ago.

I got a concussion. Yeah, but, like, Gina does hit hard. And you mentioned, like, her husband is Kevin Ross. He's one of the nastiest, like, Muay Thai kickboxers in American history. That dude was a fierce animal during his career. I know you know Kevin. I don't know him very well. I've interviewed him a couple times.

I know Kevin really well. I don't know Gina. I know Gina. I was Gina's first ever interview, by the way, just to throw that out. She was fighting K-1 at the time. I think, like, that's my biggest question with Rhonda is, can she take a punch? I mean, like it or not, she did not take punch as well at the end of her career. Now, granted, you get head kicked by Holly Holme.

That's probably going to knock out a lot of people. but then like Amanda tagged her up and she was like 40 seconds in she was just getting tagged up and put out. Now, yes, we're talking about Holly Holme was a very accomplished fighter and of course Amanda is in my opinion, the greatest of all time in the women's division. But still, like, Rhonda is a natural featherweight and this fight's had featherweight. It's not at 135, so she's not cutting that extra weight. Remember, I don't, she could make all the excuses she wants about steroids, a blah, blah, blah. She never wanted to fight sidewalk at 145.

She absolutely, make all this she, she never wanted to stand toe to toe, with Chris Seibor because I think Chris Seibor would have demolished Ronda in my opinion. This is my opinion. I think what I think if Cyborg had gotten to Rhonda before Holly and all of him, we'd be talking about that one. That's what we'd be talking about. Oh my God,

just what Chris Seibor did to Ronda Rousey. That to me is the advantage that Gina has. She's going to have size. She's going to have some weight. You see when they stand up, she's good like two, three inches taller in the Ronda. Like, she's pretty big and she hits harder. Can Rhonda take those punches? If she lands a good shot, can Rhonda still take a

bunch of being, like being away a decade. Oh, it's helped her out. I'm not really sure that's true because you haven't been getting punched. Like there's a conditioning element to that when you're sparring and, you know, kind of used to it all the time. She hasn't done that. You know what I mean? She hasn't really done that. So I don't know, man. Like I'm sticking with my Rhonda pick just because I think she should be able to get inside, take her down and probably get the arm bar and kind of look like Rhonda Rousey back when she was fighting, you know, Betcha or whoever. But Gina Lanz a good one though. Like she just needs that one good punch. I don't know

that Rhonda can take a punch like that anymore. Yeah, and the thing is, like, everything that Rhonda does can be mitigated pretty easily. I should even say easily, but, like, you can learn pretty quickly, like, how to not get armed, you know? You can learn pretty quickly how to not get judo tossed. Like, Ollie Holm wrote the blueprint on, you know what I mean? I don't think if Ronda got a single takedown on her. And it because, like, judo is a specific sport where you're wearing a ghee and you got grips and, you know, you're, doing certain things with that where it's transfer over to no ghee or mMA you know is limited and it's

not that it's not great for that i mean i think i love judo and i think it's an amazing sport but only certain moves carry over and it's a very limited amount of moves so gina has a limited a number of things that she has to train for against ronda whereas ronda has to train you know, to get her striking better. And she was training that for a long time and it never got better. Like I don't think she has the natural intuitiveness

to be a striker ever. So, you know, that combined with the size. And again, I do think, like just, just guessing, you know, Gina's probably more inclined to be the type to stay in shape over 17 years, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of go back to what you said a few weeks ago

when you're kind of comparing it to Jake Paul, Mike Tyson. Like, we're probably going to be really sad when it's over. And I think there's a good chance of that. I mean, what times does it come on? Do I have to stay up for this? It's 9 p.m. and it's a 5-5 main car. So it's a little shorter. It's kind of like a UFC event.

Yeah. So it's going to be like the card last night. Yeah, but, you know, I mean, you got, you know, you got Junior Dos Santos and rebellists to spawn you. Like, I don't think that's going to last more than around. Like, I think that's going to be very quick, whoever wins. you know and then we'll get to mike parry and nadeaise and francis in a second but yeah i mean i don't know like i'm just my here's my greatest hope is like i'm not sad when it's over like

you know what i mean like if it's it was gina winning by knockout or ronda winning by arm bar i just wanted like it to the point where i'm like okay you know it happened you know somebody won and and no one got seriously hurt or injured but i don't want to walk away from this thing being like oh my god like you know like you said feeling dirty that you're like why do i watch this like Either it's really ugly, which I think there's a real world where that could happen because when you're, when you're riding, you got knocked out brutally two times in a row. Are you now trigger shy? Are you now like, you know, like, do you not want to get hit? Like, you can spar and train all you want. It's different when you actually get in there and get hit.

You know that, Matt. So, like, is she going to be gun shy? Is she going to be trigger shy? Is Gina just, like, going to avoid the takedowns? Is she actually going to throw? Is this going to be like a lot of stand around and wait and look at each other for five rounds or whatever's going to be? So that's what I don't want. I just want it to be like an ending that I can live with

to where when it's over, I'm not like, God, why did I just watch that fight? Because that's how I felt at the end of Jake Paul Mike Tyson, or a lot of Jake Paul fights, honestly. But like, with that one in particular, I was like, God, I just wish I hadn't watched. That was so bad. And I'm glad Tyson didn't get killed because he was 58 years old. But I felt there was, I felt nothing good after watching that fight. I don't want that feeling again.

I'm about all I can say is good luck on that. you're going to go to bed next Saturday night after that fight and be like, why did I do this? I should already be asleep. Well, you stay up late anyway, but me, I'm going to be like, why am I still up watching this? And my kids are going to want to stay up and watch it. And so unfortunately, I'll probably be stuck watching it. But there's nothing exciting about this to me. Now, Perry Diaz, of course, that's the fight of the night right now, right?

Like that's the one everybody's excited to see. In Gano Lins, it could turn into a good fight, right? Junius Sandoz could turn into a good fight. Like, there's a chance. I mean, it's MMA and, you know, we don't know where everybody's at in their lives and careers. But Perry Diaz, we don't really know where they're at. But that was an interesting fight, at least on paper. I mean, they've been active.

So you can't, like, you know, Diaz has been boxing. He's been active. Perry's been, you know, King of BKFC. So, like, even though now I've been fighting MMA, they're clearly MMA fighters and I like that's my main event like because on paper I think Francis is

probably going to nuke Philippe Lins like you know Fulib is like a light heavyweight kind of masquerading as a heavyweight unless Francis has just totally lost the step being out of action for a while which it's been a year and a half it's not been that long but unless he just totally lost a step and it just turned or Lins

gets takedowns or something I don't think that's going to end well for him but Perry Diaz is legit interesting because we know how like how good and how tough Nate Diaz is. And you've got to remember, like when Mike Perry was fighting M.A. I said, you know, he was a mid-card guy. He was never a champion or a contender. You know, he never got, I don't know if he ever got ranked.

I don't think he ever did, to be honest. But he came in and, like, you know, blew away a few guys, knocked him out brutally. And then he got to higher level competition and kind of got handled. He got armed by a cowboy. He got, you know, he got handled by other guys. So the return to MMA is interesting to me because on that level in terms of MMA, I'm thinking away, and it's 170, by the way, it's welterweight. I'm just like, Diaz should win?

Because, like, he's got submissions. He's obviously incredibly tough dude, and he's got, like, legit, good striking for MMA, whereas Perry was always kind of like the brawler kind. Like, he was always out there just trying to gun for the knockout. I wouldn't, I wouldn't say, like, did you see that combination, that blinding combination that Mike Perry just did? No, he was usually just kind of gunning for the knockout. So on paper, I think Diaz has an advantage there, especially when hits the ground.

I mean, that's kind of a mismatch. Diaz is very, very high level on the ground. We know that. and whereas, you know, Perry really never was. So I lean Nate Diaz in that regard, because I always like to go for the guy who has more ways to win. I think Nate Diaz has more ways to win. Yeah, I kind of agree with you on that.

But realistically, I mean, Nate Diaz was really kind of a mid-card guy, too. I mean, other than, you know, he got some big fights, and he beaten Connor was certainly the peak of his career. He did fight for a title, though. He did fight for a title. Right. But I think it was more, like, because of his persona. and things like that versus like him earning his way up there, right?

I mean, that's debatable. I know that's, there's an argument there. He beat Cowboy. Like, he fought Benson Henderson. It wasn't like, you know, the same way. It would have been like Islam or something. But I think he earned it at that point. But you're right.

It was never, you know, it wasn't quite, but I agree what you're saying. I get what you're saying. Yeah, I mean, it's an easy argument that he accomplished more than Perry did in the UFC, right? But, but overall, like, you know, he wasn't, you, you, he, you, he, you, you, you, you, you get what I'm saying. You know, he wasn't known for for being a world champion or anything. But yeah, the point is, you know, I think the biggest thing that Nate Diaz has, that concerns me here is, you know, the Diaz brothers, both of them have always been very hitable. And Perry's got really good power, which has kind of been his blessing and his curse as a fighter, right? Because

he does land that big shot and hurts people. But it's kind of his thing, too, is he's got to land that big shot. You know, he's not a pepper you guy. Like, like Neidez. But that's what makes this fight so interesting is because it is kind of the high volume pepper guy, long, lanky Neadez versus the power guy who's going to go try and land one big shot. And they're both exciting, crazy exciting fighters. So I think this is actually a pretty fascinating matchup. I'm going to lean a little bit towards Perry just because I think he's a little bit hungrier at this point in his career. And I think he wants it a little bit more. But, man, that's a very sight lean.

And I'm really saying that because I'm, well, maybe I'm forcing myself to make a call here. But, you know, it's because, look, I'm just making a call. And I'm going to go to Perry. You know, I think he's been a little bit more active than Nate. And he's, again, he's got the power. And I think Nate is hitable. And I think he can catch him. And I hear you know, Perry's also hitable, though.

That's the thing that kind of worries me about that because he, every BKFC fight he's had. He got teed up a little bit by Jeremy Stevens. He got teed up a little bit by Eddie Alvarez. Now credit, he comes back and just knocks the piss out everybody. But, you know, Nate and the Diaz brothers are known for having legendary, you know, legendary conditioning, legendary chins, durability. You know, remember when he got stopped by Mazdala, it was a cut. He didn't get stopped.

He got, you know, he got a bad cut and they stopped the fight. You know, but, you know, Mazadol was taking him apart pretty good. Like, if I'm Mike Perry, I'm watching that Masbidol fight, where you see how Masvidol kind of took it to Diaz in those early rounds. But I like Nate to win just because I think, like I said, he has more ways to win, especially like if he just jumps a guillotine. Like, I don't know the pair can get out of a Diaz guillotine or, you know, like that. Fair, yeah. Fair point.

And this is, like, no offense. I think Francis is awesome. And, you know, listen, there's no doubt that Rhonda and Gina are stars. We don't sit here and pontificate about how great they are as fighters, but they are stars. This is the main event, Matt. This is the one. Like, this is the one that's actually like, because I don't, like, when I say I don't know what's going to happen in Rhonda and Gina, that's a bad thing.

I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen. With Perry and Diaz, it's like, I don't know because, like, there's ways for Perry to win. There's ways for Diaz to win. This is the main event. No offense. This is the one that I'm, like, most excited about, and I don't feel like I'm going to be sad when it's over.

Yeah, well, they're also two high-level active fighters, right? I mean, we're talking about being mid-car guys, but they're high-level guys. I mean, these are both very high-level professional fighters and, they've been active you know they've been out there fighting Ron and Gina have been active for fucking decades you know so it's a

yeah it makes for at least an interesting fight and I it could be its main event I mean it could be its own main event I mean it could be its own card Nate Diaz and Mike Perry so yeah I'm that one I don't think we'll walk away being like I wish I didn't watch that

yeah and I think the winner's in a really good position because for Perry he could go back and do BKFC and has that Darren Till fight kind of staring down at him. That's a very big fight for him. Yeah. And I don't want to ruin my Nate Diaz interview in a play in a second, but like Nate talked about like, you know, why he didn't want Connor. By the way, just to answer your question because he mentioned it. He said, it wasn't about the money. He's like, I just didn't want to be, I'm ruining my interview. I'm about to play in a second. He basically was like, I didn't

want to fight Connor coming back from a broken leg and getting knocked out and being out for five years. Because if I beat Connor then, it's almost like, yeah, you beat a fucking broken down, beat up, you know, 38-year-old Connor McGreg. But if Connor can come out and, like, you know, starch Max Holloway, which I don't think is going to happen. But, hey, let's see what happens. Then you do the trilogy, and that's where Nate's like, then it makes sense because I'm not fighting a broken down,

you know, guy who's like everyone expecting to lose. I was like, yeah, that's kind of makes sense, you know, like you don't want to be the guy. And he said, I don't want to be the guy to retire him. Yeah, I kind of get that. Like, when he explained it to me that way, I was like, I get it. Like, because everyone's going to be like,

what is Connor going to do? How is it going to look? if he comes back in wins, which we'll see, or if he comes back at all, then you set it up, and if Nate could beat Mike Perry, then he has kind of like his pick of the litter. He can be like, I want this, I want that. He really wants to buy Charles Oliver. I think that's actually a really interesting fight.

Nate Diaz and Charles O'Levara. Really interesting fight, yeah. Yeah, so, yeah. I don't believe Nate on that still, though. Like, now maybe the money offered on the Conner's side was just maybe only slightly higher. And he's like, okay, now that's my. actual reason, but look, money talks. That's all there is to it.

Like money talks. I mentioned it to Nate, and you hear at a second, I said, USC wants you back, they're pregnant, want you to sign a a multi-deal. And he's like, and he actually said, like, I don't have a problem with that. They just got to give me guys I want to fight. So, yeah, I think that's all, I think that also plays a part with the like, yeah, well, dude,

we want you back. Here's $12 million in a four-fight contract. And I think he kind of likes that freedom to be like, I want to go fight Mike Perry, I want to go fight Darren Till, or I want to go box, you know, whoever. I think Nate likes that. Nate had to wait a long time to get free. Remember all that he had to go through to finally get out of his contract? So I don't know that he's racing to be like,

let me sign another four-fight deal. So that also, I think, plays a part. That's my whole point. There's just more to it than what he's letting on there. Yeah. I could be wrong. Like, you know, Nate is a respectable guy like that too, where he's like, look, I believe that's true what he's saying.

I don't think he's lying in that. Like, he doesn't want to fight Connor coming back from a broken leg after sitting out for having me years. And I wouldn't doubt also that he's on the same page as me. That Conner's not coming back. Yeah. Yeah, it's also true. You mortgage your freedom.

You sign a new far-wide deal, and Conner doesn't come back, and you're stuck under a new contract. Doesn't like that goes away. Exactly. So, no, I like that. I like that very much. All right, Matt, we'll obviously break down either the happiness or sadness

of watching this event on Saturday on next week's show. We'll see how it goes. before I play my Nate Diaz interview, Matt, where can people check you out? Where can people find out what you got going on? At I'm the Immoral, Instagram, and Twitter, The Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook, and now The Immortal cast on Spotify and YouTube.

There you go. And folks, enjoy my interview with Nate Diaz. He fights Mike Perry this Saturday night on Netflix. We'll, of course, have full coverage over on the best website in the world, MMAFighting.com. Enjoy this interview. We'll be back with another edition of the Fighter versus the Writer. Next week.

Thanks for tuning in. Nate, what's going on, man? How are you? I'm good. How are you doing? I'm fantastic, man. I appreciate jumping on me tonight. How's that?

How's everything, man? Obviously, fight basically just a week away now. Yeah, it's time. It's time. I know you never really stopped training, but when you were doing boxing, did you miss MMA or is it harder getting back into MMA full time? I'm not for and you're ready for, so I didn't miss having to do it. but I stayed

I stood active in everything I touch everything pretty consistently but now that I'm doing it and I'm full in full camp it's a fucking rough ride compared to my I was gonna say man

you're having so you're having so much in boxing like I honestly wonderly would you ever do MMA again yeah no it felt like I was cheating the system It felt like I would have access to the fucking money box in the fucking bosses' group. Yeah. Before this fight came about, we'd all heard like there was going to be boxing opportunities.

Like, when you got this offer, were you surprised? Did you kind of see it coming? Like... The best option for the time for the moment. Yeah. And listen, I think you mentioned like this is probably the biggest fight you could get outside the UFC, Mike Perry's obviously been doing very, very well at BKFC, so, I mean, you had to be pretty excited with this guy, and I assume you're getting paid well, so it's kind of like a good

combo. Not to mention that he's the biggest name outside of the UFC doing things, like how I'm trying to do, and that's what fighters should be doing, and we could say an example, I believe, like I was already trying to do, but it takes two to tango, and there's not much out there. And then not to mention they got the Netflix combined with it, too, so that's two for one, you know? Absolutely, absolutely. And listen, I mean, you were a guy, you know, you were kind of fighting for this for a long time. You wanted to do things outside the UFC.

When you finally got your freedom, like, do you feel like this has been the best thing you've been able to do between your boxing matches and now doing this? Like, you're not really tied to any one thing. You've got to do your own thing. Yeah, it's out there. Don't come with time and learning, and I think people need to speed it up, step on the fucking gas and get control. careers and their shit and understand what's really going on here, you know? Yeah. I know I know Rhonda's been going pretty hard to the UFC, but I know like anytime, you know, Dana's

asked about you, it always says great things about you. What is your relationship with the UFC right now? Yeah, well, I think we could have been better if they can be, but I think they, they're not happy with it either because I'm not business, you know, and they got the, it's the other fucking, the other show, but, uh, I did too much. to get out too much while I was in to get out and it's kind of hard to just jump back in when it's not that much on the inside for me at the moment. Yeah, I'm not going to make you get into like contracts like money and stuff,

but I kind of assume like if the UFC brought you back, they're not going to bring you back on a one-fight deal, right? Like, they're going to want you to sign a multi-fight deal again. At least I assume that's like how you'd have to go back there. Yeah, they wanted to fight in the UFC right now, you know, because I want to, the thing about They got the best of the best, and I'm still interested in fighting the best fighters, and I still want to fight for a title, and I still want to do the best shit you can do. I don't want to just hop around the UFC to play around, and waste nobody's time.

So when either people need to take action, get out and make their own stuff, like, make their own... The inside, it's like, if there were whole more people in their performance, I mean, nobody that really sports interest in there that much, you know, at the moment. But you know what you can see it, they pop up. Yeah, absolutely. And, Nate, like, obviously, you've been a part of some of the biggest rivalries in the sport. I would say the biggest rivalry ever, you and Connor, that was such an epic rivalry. But you and Mike, you have been pretty cordial, no bad blood, really?

Like, was that just like you don't really have a problem with him? Is it just been, like, you just really haven't felt like you need to go after him yet? Or maybe it'll ratchet up this week a little bit? Everything. People outside of the ring, it's because I'm a professional fighter. That's a real feeling. That's a real thing. And that's really how I felt like when I was fighting Connor, fuck Connor. You know what I'm saying? When I was fighting, I didn't have a little more problem for now with that guy. And it's, you know, in the New Sea. And I see him come in and we were on sit bus a couple times. It's been around each other. And we never had a problem. Number one spot. And outside of the UC, me and MR, the number one guys, I'm here to take the United States. I'm here to take the bus a couple of times. I'm here to take. that spot. I'm not going to just make up an artificial beef for fucking people's entertainment and to do a, you want to watch real athletes motherfuckers out of the UFC, do the thing, this is what you're going to see. And if you want to get on some goods, you shouldn't get all. That's what I do anyway. I'm not trying to do that. But if it were to happen, that's what

happened. Official beef, we've already seen each other cross past to hello by any means. Some bullshit. I get a professional like I am and go out there and get the job done and make the best motherfucker win. I love it. It's funny, night, I tell people, like, if you ever get around Nate Diaz, like, because I remember being in Strike Force with Jake and that whole giant Mayhem Miller

thing, guys, like, if you actually get around the Diaz guys, like, they're actually really, really nice guys, just don't cross them, don't mess with them, don't piss them off, and you'll be totally cool. robbery shit like when Connor come in the press conferences with him on it what can he say to me I've been around longer than him I fight better better people look at it like this but this how I looked at it and I fought better fighters than him he grew up watching me he has to not touch to me like he talks to all these other guys I got in front of him and this guy just spit it on me just like he did everybody I said then it was like fuck you so that created

a real rivalry but that's a real feeling and I'm down for that if that's what it is artificial big that I can smell artificial bullshit and people try to sell a fight from a mile away and what I'm selling is watching the best motherfucker win that's what I'm talking about and I don't need to do all that but if anybody that's what I do is I'm getting on well what's funny is when this fight got it now you know Rhonda and Gina great fight obviously Francis is a legend but like it feels like you and Mike is like you know kind of like the people's main event it's the one everyone's else you know is getting really excited for have you kind of felt that to lead up to this?

It's the most realest fight you can do it. It's show for everybody. I think I'm going to do the best that I can, and I can't, and whether you think you're going to try to want a decision. Look, I don't know how to do that. Yeah, I mean, this is going to be a battle. It's going to be a battle from start to finish until one of you all gets finished, and I assume you're looking to go out there and either knock out or choke out Mike Perry.

And I know you said, like, when this came about, everyone asked you about, oh, what about the Conner fight? and you said, you know, you want to fight the real dudes, you want to fight tougher competition, you didn't want to be the guy to nail in Connors' golfing. Can I just ask you, honestly, do you feel like that fight is just done? Like, that robbery's done just because of where you're at in your career and where Conner's at? I'm a real fight. I'm still good and great.

He's fucking everything he says he is and what USC did and all that. But when I'm not going to let him fucking test that out on me. And I'm not trying to be a part of this fucking Carter McGregory. come back. I'm gonna finish him off. I don't want to get finished off. I'm like, why you come back and do your thing? And when you're doing the thing and I'm doing my thing, then we'll have our fucking thing that you owe me from a long time going to anyway. So we'll fight the guy who got a thing and then go get it to death. Fucking just knocked out Luke Rock horses who were once-of-way medal-weight champions and

fucking everybody ever taking over businesses and the baddest motherfucker on the outside of the UFC. I'm trying to fight the toughest competition. Any type of I don't know my dinner fight when I was in the UFC for any years or any time up. It was only because they weren't the best motherfuckers to fight. I always wanted this tough guy. I wanted the best. So I wasn't going to try to, like, is Connor McGrath even ranked right now? Is he fucking, he's coming off a knock guy.

He's coming up a broken leg. He's coming off at him with his skinned. He's on the hill spiral. I think he's doing just fine. I think I've been through all that. He's new. I've been around longer than him. He's just, he's had,

and he's down from everybody. He's got home probably like, watch me take over all this shit again. Motherfucker, I'm moving. And I ain't here to have that shit down to me. You go get that shit done. I'm going to get my shit done when my parents most bad a motherfucker

get my shoe popping out here. And then we're both ready to fight each other. We're both ready to fight each other. Nonsome fuck that fucking little, uh, uh, agenda that everybody else wants me on. I'm not. I'm making my own moves under my own thing, like a real fun, like a real nigga, outside of the fucking U-S.S.

on my own shit, all my own force, by myself. Absolutely. I don't know if you heard, but did you hear the rumor? It sounds like Connor's going to fight Max Holloway, and I know Max is your guy. I know you love Max. I don't know if I'd like that fight for Connor. I think that's a good fight. Could be.

We'll see. I mean, I think I have your kind of opinion. I don't know what to expect with Connor right now. So it's been five years, so hard to tell. What do you do? Who do you think what tough fight? I mean, I got a favor. Max, I mean, he's been more active,

and I think on the feet, like, he's looked so good. He's looked great at lightweight. I mean, I know that Charles Olavera fight wasn't his, but that wasn't really, you know, it wasn't a great fight, in my opinion. But I just think right now, man, like, that's a real tough fight to come back from five years off. Oh, I would think that hell kill me.

I was getting his ass when I was fucking everybody up. And now he just out of nowhere. So when he finally got the ballot and was around and I, oh, shit, I'll fight. Fucking all there finally, doing something. So I said, what's so while of him? Respectfully. I'd like to fight all very.

That's the time he's been around. And he said, no, thanks, homie. I'm on the bigger, and do all this bitch shit. You could say that, you little fucker, because he right there. And then he fucking won one fight, and then he called Al Connor. And that's exactly what I thought when he caught Alconnor. Why are you trying to find the guy who's coming up on my break? Just got knocked out.

And he's all fucked up and fucking on down. Oh, thanks, homie. I'm trying to do bigger things. I'm like, pick on a guy who you're full of shit. You think you're fucking tired. And then fucking, uh, that's why I had something to say about Oliver. I don't have nothing to get him except for that. Like, if no thing told me, I'm on the bigger, better things like what,

picking on a guy who just got a asshole till the time? That's whack. Those are the motherfuckers that I'm trying to buy. I'm fighting the bullies. I ain't trying to find no fucking, uh, nobody. I want Connor come back and do a good job and then we can meet up I only can get it on. 100%.

But I want to fight somebody at their best. In other words, that's what I was saying. I only took time off because I was only trying to fight the best people. That's the only time I was out of fighting. So I know we want to give you number 16. I'm like, you're not going to give me something in the top five? I'm cool. So I made number of fights.

I'm not fighting because they're not giving me the best guys. I've always fought the best guys. Five-more top five-rate opponents at any champion ever. So that's what makes me a champion. My budget, I feel I'm better than everybody. I've been doing more. It's longer and more than everybody. I love it.

It's kind of funny you imagine that because I'm sure maybe you saw maybe someone told you, like, Dustin Poy is still talking. He's like, I'll come out in retirement. That means to one guy come out of retirement. Can I imagine it's kind of a similar thing to like Conner? It's like, where's Dustin at right now? He's been off for a year. He lost to Max.

Like, I imagine like a Max Holloway or Charles Olivaer would be a much bigger, better fight for you. About fucking, I never fucking, I never reached out, never plan on it. Never, never plan on it. Why don't you fucking get your fucking bitch ass back in the ring and start fighting people? And when the time's right, we're going to link up and we're going to fucking fight. But don't leave it on me for you to come out of retirement. You're fucking done.

It's a rap. Go lay down with your girlfriend and fucking put your clothing. Motherfucker. I'm not trying to fight normal. I'm trying to fight the best of them. I love it. Well, listen, man, this is such a great fight. Like I said, I have nothing.

We're retired ladies. Fucking Savage, top right ones only. Yeah. Well, I think this is, I mean, this is like I said, I love Rhonda. I love Gina. I love, you know, Francis and Philippe Lins. But this is my main event, Nate. This is the one I'm most excited about.

There is no way you and Mike Perry is not going to be a freaking awesome fight. I love, I appreciate that a lot. And I figured I'd imagine that. I know, I know what I want to do the half-meant-me and stuff. But I'm the one who's managing what the fuck I'm doing. I'm fighting the best guys the whole time. And that's why I believe I say what I'm at, because I'm not fucking playing.

I'm doing this phony fight. Anybody fucking for, I could all those times off, too, all these last two years, I ain't been fighting too because there's nobody to fight. I could have fought every, I could have fought so many no-name people for fucking millions of dollars more than anyone gets paid in the USC. But I'm not just trying to make a bunch of money

to fight. I'm trying to fucking fight the best and the best and make a lot of money in the process. Absolutely. Real quick before I let you go, Nate, I know that Jake has said, like, after this car, everything goes well, like they want to get more invested in MMA.

Can I imagine you'd be willing to work with them again if they get you another good fight and another good payday? Everything is about timing and whatever the options are. We're going to weigh them all. allow and I'm going to fight the best of the best for the most amount of money for the next forever. I love it. I love it. Nate, man, I really

appreciate you doing this, man. Obviously, I have fun in the fight next week, man. I'll be watching. Can't wait for it. Thank you for taking a little time for me, man. I appreciate it. Yes, sir. Love. I'll see you out there and good talking to you. Absolutely, man. Talk soon. All right, all right. Have a good one. You too. Bye-bye.