MMA Fighting - Fighter vs Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Sean Strickland-Eric Nicksick Fallout, Francis Ngannou Returning to Boxing and Henry Cejudo's 'Last Run'

Episode Date: February 18, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin discuss the fallout from Eric Nicksick offering his brutally honest opinion about Sean Strickland's performance at UFC 312 and Strickland later saying that Nicksick probably wouldn't return to corner him again. We'll also talk about Francis Ngannou's decision to return to boxing and if that's a good idea or not? Plus, Henry Cejudo says he's taking one "last run" at the UFC title and we give our picks for Artur Beterbiev vs. Dmitry Bivol 2 and much more! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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IKEA, bring home to life. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Back to the fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, we are coming off a weekend where there was a UFC card. I don't know how many people paid attention. It wasn't exactly the barn burner of all cards.

We are going into UFC Seattle this weekend. Pretty interesting main event. Although that entire card has just fallen apart. I mean, so many big fights fell off that card, which kind of feel bad for the fans of Seattle. But, yeah, we're in kind of a little bit of a down period before we get to UFC 313 a couple of weeks. Which is the big one.

I'm ready for it. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you know, Canineer and Rodriguez, I thought it was going to be a pretty good fight. It turned out not so bad, but wasn't, you know,

hey, Canaaner is a bad dude, man. You know, I think he's got a lot of potential actually in the division. You know, it's funny. And I've noticed this with a lot of these fight night cards because I get into, I won't say I get into arguments,

but I've had a bit of a debate with some other people online about this. or like the idea of like it's the cards that don't get the attention that they end up being banger cards and while that does happen occasionally like it or not mad and I'm sure you probably agree to me to a certain extent the stakes still have to matter like there's regional shows where you see crazy knockouts and that's awesome but like when you're in the UFC when you watch a UFC event you get to a main event you want some stakes and I'm not saying there were no stakes because you know but like cannon air was off two losses Gregory

Rodriguez wasn't ranked again I didn't think it was a bad fight it ended up being a pretty decent fight but as good as it was when there's really no stakes it's not like the one guy was like you know a couple of fights away from a title shot I mean can and there's 40 he was off two losses so it's not like he's like in the deep you know end of it again I'm not negating that was a decent fight I'm just saying like stakes matter yeah no that that's exactly right I mean I've said a million times right it's all about the drama that's what we actually want. And we're all guilty of it too. We love watching high level fighting,

but it won't fucking drama, bro. If, you know, if Muay had drama, it'd be the biggest sport in the world, but there's not a lot of drama. Yeah. People aren't tuning in for love and respect and handshakes. They want to see the drama show. That's

the reality of it. So, speaking of drama, Matt, since we don't have a lot of, like, big fights coming up, we are going to talk a little bit about U.S.C. Seattle and a couple of other things. But I really, really, wanted to get your perspective on this because I don't know how much you saw last week. Sean Strickland and his head coach, Eric Nixick, have kind of had, I would say, a little bit of a falling out.

And I think a lot of it stems from Eric, who I know very well. I like very much. Eric's a good dude, like a really genuinely good guy, did an interview after Sean Strickland lost his fight. And he talked about the performance. And again, I don't want to misquote him here. He said that it was a very underwhelming performance and it was kind of an uninspiring effort from Strickland is what he said.

said during the podcast interview. And then like a day later, Sean Strickland comes out and says, I like Eric. He's a friend of mine. He's going to continue to be a friend of mine. Will he probably be in my corner? Probably not. More or less. And he never flat out said, like, I don't like what he said.

But you kind of read between the lines. Eric was very brutally honest about the performance. And then two days later, Strickland says he's not going to be in my corner anymore, which essentially means he's not your coach anymore without fully saying, like, I didn't like what he said. Now, I'm allowed to have an opinion about this, Matt, because I've been covering sport for 20 years. I can have an opinion. But ultimately, like it or not, my opinion really doesn't matter.

You're a fighter. You're a legend. And also, you've been a fighter and you've been a coach. So that's why your perspective is so invaluable here. So I'm not actually going to necessarily take sides. But I guess the question is, is it okay for a coach to come out after a fight and talk about very openly and honestly about what happened, which in this case, he didn't like what Sean did? And we heard him in the corner that night. He tried, man.

He tried to get into Sean's interesting. You've got to go. You got to move. Sean never really reacted to that. And then two days later, Sean says, hey, we're kind of breaking up, for lack of a better word about it. So, again, I'm not saying you have to necessarily say Eric's right or Sean's right.

But how do you take this situation? Because we do live in a world where we ask fighters and coaches to talk about fights. And I appreciate that. And I think criticism is okay. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with criticism, but should it be handled publicly? I don't know. So that's why I wanted to ask you, like, how do you feel about this whole thing?

Yeah, well, first and foremost, we have no idea, like, what's going on behind the scenes, right? There could be a million different things that, you know, we're basing all this off a couple paragraphs, you know what I mean? So, who knows, you know, they've had a long relationship. So there could be a million different things about this. Just from the outside looking in, I mean, like Sean Strickland doesn't come across to me, you know, in his fights and his just personality. like a really coachable guy anyway. So it's like, you know, was he having a guy as a water boy? Or was it, you know what I mean?

Was he just paying a guy to kind of be there? And, you know, maybe that's not what Eric wants, right? And I don't know Eric at all. I've never, I don't think I've ever even met him. But, you know, certain coaches work for certain people. And certain coaches don't work for certain people. And that's all there is to it. I don't think it's unfortunate that this is the most,

news that we got this week, you know, because it's like, it's like a real nothing burger, you know. It's like, yeah, you know, these guys, you know, we're all grown-ass men. I mean, if you ever tried doing business with anybody on this planet, it's not an easy thing to do. So, you know, especially when you're dealing with fighters who already have screws loose and then coaches who got something wrong with them to want to be coaching this sport. So, you know, it's a, it's a bad mix. there and that's too. I guess my bigger issue, not my bigger issue, my bigger question is like handling it publicly.

Like you said, behind the scenes, we don't know what's going on. Maybe behind the scenes, Sean had already told Eric like, hey, I'm not going to be in my corner anymore. Eric did the interview and said, hey, like, you know, I just didn't, it's not working out.

Like, you know, like you said, maybe he's just not the most coachable guy. And maybe Eric is just behind the scenes fed up and said, man, you're not listening to me during fights. Like, what am I doing there? Maybe that's what happened. I don't know. But when you handle it in a public forum,

people are going to react to it, right? Like when he goes out and says it was a very uninspiring, underwhelming performance. So, I mean, I guess the question is, like, is it okay for a coach or a fighter to, like, you know, criticize their guy? Because, I mean, I think there is a place for, for critical analysis. And we ask this fighters all the time.

We ask this to, like, be honest about your performances. You know what I mean? Like, I've had plenty of interviews where guys say, I perform like shit. And they won the fight. But they're like, I still did not. look good out there and I try to compliment him. I'm like, no, man, you did great.

He's like, no, no, that was a terrible. So, like, fighters are self-critical, but is it like, is this, should this all be handled behind closed doors or, or is there a right to say, like, does, I don't know, does the public, does the public perception saying, like, it wasn't underwhelming? Because if Eric comes on, it says, oh, so, you know, it was just a bad night at the office and doesn't offer anything else, he might be questioned, right? Like, people are like, what do you, hold on now, like, you know, like, Sean didn't do what you were telling him to do.

So it's kind of a weird thing because we do live in this platform now where everyone's on social media, everyone's doing interviews. And this is a weird one because like they seem pretty close. And now it's like they're splitting up. And it just on the surface, as you said, behind the scenes, we don't know. But on the surface, it looks like Eric criticized Sean publicly. Sean didn't like that. And so now they're not going to work to you. That's the way it looks.

Yeah. That's all we can base it off of is what it looks, right? And it's unfortunate, you know, look, if, like, you criticize you. I don't think you should criticize your fighter publicly. Like, when you signed up and you agreed to be his coach and work with him, like, there's a lot of personal business that goes on there. It's not just business. There's a lot of personal stuff that goes on there.

Yeah, you should just be, you should have his back no matter what. And if business gets in the way, like you just, you just. You know, you don't talk about it publicly. I'm a big believer in that. That's not to say that a situation might arise where the opposite happens to, though, right? But, you know, that's part of a coach athlete agreement, too, I think, you know, a kind of unspoken rule. So, yeah, but that also wasn't a, like a bad thing that he said either. I mean, he just said it was an uninspiring performance.

And, you know, I think Sean's man. enough to admit that also, right? It wasn't like he said, oh, he fucking sucks, you know, I don't want to coach him anymore. You know, something like that. You said it was an uninspiring performance. And I think anybody with an honest, you know, look at themselves honestly

would say the same thing. Yeah. How would you make, I guess, if I turn it back to you, because, again, you take both roles now. You are a coach and you were a fighter. Yeah. Like, obviously, like, we talk about, you're about to go, not to spoil the future,

you're about to go do seminars and travel and you're going to coach a guy who's fighting in one championship. You know what I mean? Like now, again, I don't know. Obviously, we hope for your guy to go out there and get a big win and you come home happy. But if he has a bad night at the office, I just, I don't, I don't see you coming on this podcast and be like, how'd things go? And you're like, man, he looked like shit. Like I just, I don't, but that, but that and that's, again, I'm being, I'm defending Eric in this. And I appreciate Eric's honesty because I think sometimes we need that kind of brutal honesty.

we talk about in the corners, which, again, that's not an interview, but like, we talk about all, I see this all the time, and again, everyone's got their own coaching style, but we've talked about this when a guy's clearly lost around their coaches, like, you did great that round. It was close, and we're like, were we watching the same fight? Like, it wasn't close. And I, I dislike that. Me, personally, I dislike that kind of coaching, because I'm almost like, why are you lying to the guy?

Like, if he's down two rounds and you've got one round to go, you better lie to fire under his ass and say, dude, you got to go. And to Eric's credit during the fight, he did. over and over again. He's like, you got to go. I need you step in for it. I need you doing this. And Sean didn't really react. And as a coach, I'm sure you as a coach, that does get frustrating when you're like telling a guy what to do and he's not

doing it. So I appreciate that he's open and honest about that. But on the flip side, I understand like you kind of want that handle behind closed doors, right? If your guy fights in one and has a really bad night, doesn't listen to you, doesn't react, you're not going to come on here first thing, like, man, he fought like shit. You're probably

going to tell him behind closed doors he fought like shit, but you're not going to necessarily come back on calling out publicly, right? Well, I also keep in mind that me as a coach, anytime I'm coached someone, all I'm doing is giving them my opinion or my beliefs on things. Like, I'm not the one in there. Right. So I can sit there and say, you know, you need to go for, you need to go for. I don't know what he's actually feeling. You know, I don't know what he's actually going through. So I would never criticize him for that. I could always give my opinion on how well I think he did. but to yeah i i don't really appreciate that honestly like like sometimes i mean you could just

wake up with a flu or something maybe you don't even tell your coach you know what i mean it's like when you sign like a coach athlete relationship is like a boyfriend girlfriend right you like you got their back you know until you don't right i guess you know when it's all said and done but more like a marriage i guess right like it's to the death right like you know you got it You got their back and you're there for them. Like you're not fighting for them. You're not, all you're doing is giving your belief on what you think they need to do.

And they're trusting you with that belief. That doesn't mean that they're going to do it or they have to do it. Or they're bad if they don't do it or there's something wrong if they don't do it. Like you don't know what they're going through. You don't know what it is like standing in front of, you know, someone trying to kill you. Well, especially guys that have never fought. And I try not to be overly critical.

Like, I like guys like Eric Nick Sick and guys. But, like, if you've never fought, like, you're literally just giving an opinion. You know, I mean, I think someone who's fought, like, their opinion goes a lot farther. But it's still an opinion. But I could say, you know, someone that's actually done it. You know, it's like if you want to teach someone to drive a car and you've never driven a car before, is like, do you really want to learn from that person? I mean, my 14-year-old son could tell you how to drive a car.

I mean, he could teach someone how to drive a car, but do you want to learn from him? You know, it doesn't really make sense. But, you know, I try not to get too much of a, be too much of a hater for the guys who have never fought because they can bring a lot of value to a camp also. But if you're going to sit there and act like your opinion is so good and your belief of what they did was so good,

I hope you at least fought before so you can say, okay, I did that and I believe that you should. Yeah, it is, it's a tough one because like we appreciate the open, honest conversation we can have with coaches. Like I've had, I mean, I've talked to Eric Nixon many, many times. I talk to Mike Brown all the time.

He's a tremendous coach down American top team. And to his credit, Mike Brown was a pretty damn good fighter in his own right in his days. I've talked to Tiago Alves since he started coaching. I talked to a lot of guys. And I appreciate that there are, open and honest enough to say like what's going on you know behind the scenes before and after fights things like that um but it is it is a tough one right because like if you're a fighter you are

trusting him to a certain extent right like you're trusting like you said it's a marriage like if you and your girlfriend your wife are having a fight do you post on social media that you're like man I can't believe she did this and then that's how she finds out about it like again we don't know behind the scenes of like they're having the same conversation but when I put it like if you're having an argument with your girlfriend or your wife and and and you guys are argue behind the scenes, but then I go on social meeting and I post a video and be like, man, my wife, she's just so uninspiring in the bedroom and she's just like, it's a really, really underwhelming performance.

She'd get pissed and rightfully so, right? I think she would, yeah. You know what I mean? She'd probably leave you. You know, but that's what I'm like, that's kind of what you're saying, right? I know it's an extreme, but that's kind of what we're talking about, right? Yeah, absolutely. And so, like, I would, I don't, if this is the case,

And that's the whole thing with this entire conversation. Like we're assuming a lot of things here. Right. But if that is the case, like I understand Strickland getting mad about it 100%. Like, dude, I've done, I've had terrible performances. And my coaches never said a word about it outside of to me, right? And we'd talk about it. And, you know, and they would still, like I've seen it a million times.

Like, you know, not a million times. I haven't lost a million fights. but you know you lose a fight and then you know the my coaches still have my back like you know the next week or whatever you know like somebody's talk a shit online and you know and they're on there defending me you know what I mean um and I personally I appreciate that and again you know it's like when you sign up as a coach like you just got to realize like what your role is and what you're doing like like you're nobody you know that one of the things I've talked about lately to a few different guys because I'm trying to remember there was something on

Twitter or Instagram or something there's a thread and somebody was talking not really shit to me but just saying I was wrong about something and I think that was actually what they were talking about was you know what about coaches that have never fought and and I don't know I'm trying to remember exactly where that came from but um you know you You know, the thing is when if you've never done it, like you can only, I feel like you can only speak so much about it. You know, like you, you might have a great opinion, you know, going back to the same analogy, like my son could teach you how to drive.

Like he could tell you to put your foot on the pedal, go easy on the brake, put it in drive, both hands on the wheel. but what's he going to how does he know what to tell you to do when you know there's a drunk driver next to you and they swerve it all over the road right or you're on ice or you know it's a crazy rainstorm or something it's like when shit's easy it's easy to say you know what to do right but it's when shit gets hard and that's why um it really blows my mind that there's so many coaches out there that haven't fought Yeah, yeah, essentially. I mean, again, and to their credit, you know, you get a guy like Greg Jackson, he's been around forever, never fought. He's obviously coached a lot of great guys, but that input is valuable. Well, that's...

And when you look at... The last thing I'll say in that real quick is, you know, you have to keep in mind guys like Greg Jackson. And, again, I try to be real careful. I don't want to act like I'm hating on these motherfuckers or anything, but the athlete makes the coach. And any good coach will tell you that. It's like, it's 100% that.

Like, you could have the best coach. in the world and if you're not a good athlete it doesn't matter if you are the best fighter in the world like like john jones for instance he could have any coach in the world he doesn't need greg jackson and again not taking anything away from greg jackson like he's done some good things i guess but like john jones could train he did cocaine the week before he beat daniel cormey he went on a cocaine binge like do you think he needs a specific coach you know yeah that's fair that's fair. Speaking of gym politics, I want to throw this out at John. I don't know if you saw this.

This is going back a little ways, but it's still kind of, we're talking about, you know, like something that happens that the gym stays in the gym. Did you see this video came out like a week or so ago with Kevin Lee getting rocked in a sparring session and everyone? Man, I talked to Jason Jackson who's one of the kind, I don't know if you call him a team captain

or whatever, but he's been with that team forever. And he was not happy. And it seems like no one was happy that got out there. Because I've been to gyms. Like, I always tell the story. I went down to American top team to do a feature on Yawanna Young Jacek, but I was at American Top Team for a full week, and I got to sit

in a sparring session to watch Jorge Mazvedal and Dustin Porre a spar for three rounds. Now, they're close friends, they'll never fight, and boy, it was in a lot of fun watching those two just duke out with Mike Brown basically serving as the referee. I didn't video it. I didn't ask to video it. And even if I did, I would never ever, ever in a million years,

release that. That's a betrayal of trust me being there is like a journalist and then trust to me being there. The only thing I recorded, which is still to this day, one of my favorite things was Junior Dos Santos. playing air guitar to Metallica while doing a workout. I released that footage because it was hilariously awesome. But like that whole like what happens in the gym stays in the gym and like everyone, like I've not heard one person side with the guy who released that footage.

Like it's a shitty thing to do to do that to a teammate in the training part to release footage. And this goes back to that. Like I remember like we hear these stories all the time when guys talk about like, I beat you in the gym all the time. Well, what you're doing in the gym isn't a fight though. You're not trying, like, I know you go out there to fight, but you know that. I'm not, again, I'm not telling you anything. You don't know, Matt.

But like, even in the gym when you're in sparring, you're not trying to kill the guy. You shouldn't be anyway. You shouldn't be trying to hurt your sparring partner. Well, I can tell you, there's only, well, there's been a couple guys I trained with, and then I fought. One of them, I killed him in the gym. It was easy. I didn't even have to try hard. And then he beat me in a fight.

The other guy, he killed me in the gym, made it look easy. and I beat him in the fight. So, yeah, the gym is not, does not have the lights, does not have the pressure, does not have the weight cut, does not have the, your family and friends watching. And there's, you know, some people, I guess every now and then someone kind of talks shit or wants to fight me or whatever, you know, just dumbasses. I say, that's cool. I invite all your friends and family and, you know, let's charge them 20 bucks. So we make a thousand bucks and let's put on a show. and then we'll fight.

You know, that's going to change the stakes a little bit now, right? Now you've got to think about it. You know, so it's a, yeah, it's a completely different world. So, yeah, what happens? The gym should stay in the gym. And, yeah, I don't know. Did they ever figure out who released that? So apparently.

That's a fucking, that's hardcore. Like, that gets your ass kicked. Yeah, so apparently when I talked to Jason, he said it was the guy's coach. Like, he has, like, his own coach that comes in with him. he's a Russian kid, and he kind of put the blame back on his coach. But he, and what Jason said, now, he agrees, well, then don't have, if you can't trust your coach, then don't have him there. Like, don't have him in the gym. You can't.

So it's almost like he was kind of putting the blame on somebody else, but pretty clearly, like, it wasn't like he's, you know, he didn't, he wasn't like screaming to take it down. Or, you know what I mean? It's almost like he had to come out. He issued an apology, then deleted the video. But it's almost like he had to, he had to issue an apology because everyone's coming down on pretty hard. Because when you watch the video, Kevin Lee throws a fly. jumping knee but he pulls back on it because it's you're not you're not trying to hurt the guy and then as soon as he drops his knee the guy comes over the overhand right and clocks him now

have i been in gyms and seeing guys get rocked absolutely it happens you're not you know you know when you're sparring you're throwing hands it's going to happen to because you hit a guy i've seen guys get brutally knocked out in sparring sessions not because the other guy was trying to kill them they just hit him with a shot wrong way and and they get knocked out but the reality is is that happens in gyms like i've seen plenty of grappling sessions where where I've seen guys get tapped out. I just, that's part of learning.

And to put that out there. So here's the thing I think it's going to happen, though. And again, I'm not trying to condemn this poor kid because he's not, he's not like a prominent fighter. He's like a 9 and 3 fighter. He's not like a UFC guy, not a PFL guy,

not like at the major level. What you're going to run into, though, is the next time that guy goes to another gym. There's going to be people to see him and say, I don't want you here. I don't want to spar with you. And that's, that's the danger of doing something dumb like that

because people are going to be like, I don't want to work with you. And Jason told me that that guy's got a reputation for going after people in the gym, like trying to hurt them in the gym. And he said the last time he sparred him, he put him down pretty hard for that reason. Because he's like, you're not going to do that shit to me. You're not going to make a name off me. So he's like, you know, so he kind of put him on his ass for it. But yeah, you get that reputation.

People are going to want to work with you. Yeah, that happens. I mean, it'll probably be forgotten. He'll go into a gym where somebody's never even seen the video or knew that it happened, you know, a lot of places. no problem but uh they'll find out pretty quick i mean you can usually tell those people like pretty quickly um you know every a lot of people you know think that i'm that guy you know but i never went hard either that's what i think just talking from my own experience i like there's a lot

of people that thought that i was the guy going hard but i never went that hard i was going like 80 percent or 70 percent or something i've never once in my life don't a punch as hard in a fight as i have are as hard in training as I have in a fight. So, you know, it's a, it's a funny thing, sparring, man. I'm actually working on a course on, like, how to spar for dynamic striking. And, you know, it's not an easy thing. Like, the more that I dig into it, I'm like, dude, like, you know, like, this is hard to teach people.

Like, it is really, really hard to understand. It's really just an experience thing. And, but there's a, but even beyond the experience, there's also, you know, you know, just like you have to release your ego and that's and that's a extremely hard thing to do like it's it's so hard like no one knows no one understands like everybody talks about oh we just trained blah blah blah but it's like dude when you get hit like it fucking pisses you off like you know you fuck you might be mad at yourself but you're going with another guy so it's a really really difficult thing you were to we were talking about this a couple of weeks ago we were talking about

break it down the Sean Strickland Drickett's fight. You said, like, you can't have sparring being your only training. You're not really learning from that. And sparring is a tool. I mean, it is a tool. But there are guys who have gone away really. I think Demetrius Johnson has eliminated. I think he eliminated almost all the sparring late in his career and just went to just, you know,

drilling and round. And again, everyone's got their own method. Some guys love sparring. Some guys don't. But sparring is a tool just like drilling grappling or drilling wrestling, wrestling, using it effectively. And again, the point is, like, yes, bad things do happen. just like, I mean, you know, train jiu-jitsu.

You grab onto an arm bar, and even if you tap and the guy's not trying to hurt you, if you roll the wrong way, you still could get hurt, not because he's trying to hurt you. It just happens. Happens all the time. But, yeah, like, sparring is a tool, but you're not out there. You should never go out there trying to hurt a guy. And, like, when you're shining because you rock Kevin Lee, I'm like, yeah, you and Kevin Lee go fight in an actual fight, and let's see how well it goes for you.

I doubt it's going to end nearly as well for you. in that realm. And that's why it says, dirty business, man. Like, that's just like, you know, like, and I know, listen, guys do it.

We know. People say, I beat your ass in the gym all the time. It's good promotion for a fight. We get it. But in reality, as you said, it doesn't matter

because, as you said, personal experience. You had one guy you fought and beat and the other guy you didn't. Yeah, and it can matter, you know, depending on how they beat you,

right? And it can create a confidence issue in the fight or, like the guy that, the guy that beat me, I think I was overconfident. it. I think the, you know, there's a ton of different things that can come up, you know, and once you sparred with someone in the gym, at least me, I don't think all people feel this

way, but, you know, I do feel a connection with you now. I'm like, okay, like, you know, whether you like, you like, I feel some sort of connection with you. But I'll tell you what, this whole idea of no sparring, I think it's the silliest thing ever. I think it's ridiculous. And, and I wonder if what they mean when they say that is like, no hard sparring, because, like, you have to spar. Like, it's just insane that you wouldn't spar before you're fighting. It's like saying you're going to go for a marathon run. You don't do any runs.

Like, it doesn't make any sense, you know? Yeah. And again, as you said, there's different levels of sparring. You're not going there trying to kill each other. Like, when we talk about the Sean Strickland thing, there's a lot of times where you watch Strickland's sparring footage, and it looks like he's literally in a fight. And you don't necessarily want that when you're sparring. You want to learn.

Like, I'm not, I don't think I'm telling any secrets here. I was up at your gym. This is going back a couple of years ago, and I got to watch you and Mickey Gall grappling. And Mickey is known as a jiu-suitz guy. That's his specialty as grappling. But I saw you guys grappling. It was a blast to watch you guys go.

And you weren't trying to hurt each other. You were trying to get better. Like there'd be moments where you would start on bottom, he would start on bottom, things like that. But it was fun to watch. And you learn from each other. You're not out there trying to grab a hill hook and rip his knee apart. So when you say sparring, there's different level.

There are guys probably out there doing really dumb sparring. Like, I'm sure there are. But that's what you don't want to do. You're not going out there to actually beat the shit out of each other. Well, there's a time and a place for that, too, right? To raise the intensity and really push it and kind of see what you got and see if you can handle that intensity. Because, you know, in a fight, like, you don't want to the first time, you know,

in however long since the last fight, you don't want your first time to see that kind of speed be the fight. You know, you might get shocked. So, yeah, there's like a million different details that I. You know, it's like, but yeah, Mickey was a great example. I mean, you know, like we would catch each other sometimes. It's like, all right, you know, we're cool about it, right? It's like, we're here to learn. And when that's, when you have that mindset,

then you can release the ego, then you get a lot better, like really, really fast. You know, it's going to improve everything a lot faster than trying to win every round. We were talking about the, the, Nick's, and again, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to stir it up, but you said, like, you know, we're talking about fighters being coaches or coaches that have never fought. Now that you're in more of a coach girl, because technically you're retired, you're still very much active in the sport. Do you still get in, and I assume you still get in, spar and work with your guys in that way?

Because that's experience you can lend to them as both a coach and a fighter, right? Because you have that experience. Like, you can watch from the outside looking in, but do you still get in the cage and, like, work with your guys like that? I tried to as much as I can. It's been a while because I had my back. got injured again and then I just got a surgery on my nose last week

so it's been a little while but I do try to go in there and push them and usually you know I do it with well for example like in striking you know I'll wear like the belly pad and you know let them need the belly and things like that you know we're kind of sparring but you know it's kind of like I'm letting them

kind of win right and letting them be creative and have some fun with them and toss me around a little bit. But I'm also, you know, they know that I'm letting them, so it's not a real risk, you know. Yeah. And the idea of all that, like the light sparring, the idea of that and the idea of that type of training

is that we take the athleticism out of it, right? Because that's where I think so many people, especially in the sport fuck up, is they rely so much on their athleticism that now I have to pick up my speed, right? Because I'm trying to be as athletic as you. when it's like, that's why they call it technique sparring. And no one does technique sparring, right?

You know, it's about actually using the technique and being smooth and as flowy as possible. And if you do the technique and still get hit, it's okay. You didn't do the technique perfect. So try again. Versus like, I'm a, okay, I did the technique and I get hit. Well, now I'm going to do it faster next time. and that's the standard way that it ends up going, right? Are people moving their feet a lot, moving fast,

and forcing the other guy to speed up, and then it becomes a race to, you know, who can punch each other first. And I could go about it all day, but it's a frustrating thing to watch, that's for sure. Yeah. Let me shift gears real quick, because, again, we didn't have a lot going on this last week,

and we actually do have a couple things coming up this weekend, and I want to talk real quick in a minute about, Henry Suhudo coming back against Song of Dungan. Of course, Dmitri Bivel, Archer, Better Biav is also on Saturday. Big, big boxing match

and Daniel DuBois, Joseph Parker, also really interesting heavyweight matchup. Yeah, yeah, real good boxing this weekend. I'm sure you saw the news over the week last week. Francis de Gado came out and said he's going to go back to boxing for his next fight.

He's talking about Deonté Wilder. A lot of opinions on this. Some people are saying, hey, man, go make that money. And Daniel Cormier, who I have a ton of trust for it, a ton of respect for. I kind of cited with D.C. when he said this.

And what D.C. basically said was, I understand this for the money. Like, you're getting paid way more to do boxing in MMA. I don't fault for that. But he's like, I do have a little bit of a concern because of how the last fight went. Because if you look at Anthony Joshua as a boxer, his entire career, he's a much more passive guy. He kind of sits back. He's not known as like an aggressive knockout puncher in that way. And he went out there and showed no fear against Ngano and knocked him down a couple times

and just absolutely landed the kill shot and put him out in the second round, whatever it was. He just didn't go in there with that fear, and he just put him out. And he said, you have to worry about a Deonté Wilder because Deonti Wilder's not a technically great boxer, but he has such power. Now, I will say, I don't know where Deontes is at in his career. He seems like he's kind on the tail in. Maybe in Inganu fights probably the best thing for Deonté. I know that sounds terrible, but where he's at right now. But how do you feel about Inganu going back? I'm all for making the money, but there is a, I mean, you have to have a real concern when you get a knockout like that. Now, he came back and absolutely wrecked

and Ferreira wasn't even really a fight. He just went out there and mauled him. But like it or not, Wilder may not be the greatest box in the world, but the dude does hit like a truck. Yeah, I mean, if you talk about a guy that's going to come at you fearlessly and throw bombs, right? That's fucking Deonté Wilder. No, I say go get the money, man.

Like, everybody, like, I don't know. That's what everybody's worried about is, like, getting knocked out too many times or hit too many times. Like, I don't know, I've been hit a million times, and I feel like I'm fine. So I think I mean Like you signed up for this sport

Like what do you expect a guy to do You know like he's a combat athlete He's a fighter Like go fight bro And he's taking the biggest fight out there For the biggest money Fuck yeah And we can also

Also it's You know We have two boxing matches That we can judge And Francis Angano on And one He's basically one against Tyson Fury, and then one he got mauled by Anthony Joshua.

That doesn't really say anything as to what's going to happen with Deonté Wilder. That gives us basically no clue whatsoever. So if he goes and boxes Wilder the way that he did Fury, we'll be like, all right, well, he'll probably beat Deontay Wilder. If he boxed him the way he did Anthony Joshua, then he probably loses and gets knocked out. It's like we still don't know who Ingano is, is a boxer.

It's funny you say that because I also think of it this way. Maybe this is the wrong way to look at it. But he's like the most intriguing O and two boxer ever because like any O and two boxer would not be in this situation. But also that mark O and two. And again, you can talk about the Fury fight was close and he could have potentially gotten that win. But he's O and two right now.

And God is like 38. He doesn't have a ton of time left on the clock. Like if he sits around and, you know, let's say he digs around. Let's say he goes out and fights Vadeem Nimkoff at M. Maybe he loses to Vadimimkov, who's a very, very good. fighter. Not saying the boxing goes away, but the interest drops, right? The interest drops a little bit when you lose. And he's only going to have so many bites to this apple. You know what I mean? Like right now there's still a buzz for it. There's still an interest.

Him and Wilder. Wilder's kind of on the downturn of his career. A lot of people are saying Wilder should be retiring. And I think as dangerous as Wilder is, it's different to say go fight Wilder versus go fight Daniel Dubois. Like would anyone pick Nengu to be Daniel Dubois right now? No. And he shouldn't even entertain that because it's going to probably go badly for him. 27 years old, Dubois on top of the world right now, probably not a good idea. But Wilder's not.

Wilder's 39, tail end of his career. And again, you wait a year, you might not get that. And let's just say he does lose. Let's say he gets knocked out brutally by Deonté Wilder. Chances are that's it. Like, Francis isn't going to get another bite of that apple. No one's going to pay him a ton of money to go out there and then fight Derek Chazora or something.

You know what I mean? I'm not saying he can't, but I'm saying the likelihood of that is a far less likely that. Turkey is going to go, here's $10 million go fight another guy. You know, I mean, at 0 and 3 and 2 knockouts a row, if that happens, the interest is going to fall away. There's no way it's not a little bit, right? Like, we talk about this with Connor all the time.

Like, as big and popular as Connor is at some point, you've got to win. You can't just keep losing and people are going to continue to pay attention. So this might be, for instance, last bite of the apple. And so I'm like, go for it. As you said, like, he gets knocked out. He can still come back to M.M.A. and rec house, it looked like a million dollars. And I actually, weirdly, as much as Wilder is dangerous, this isn't Wilder five years ago.

Wilder's had a kind of, he's had a bit of a rough time lately. You know what I mean? He's at the tail end. So, you know. Yeah. And or if he loses, I mean, he can ride off in the sunset with his however many millions of dollars in the bank, right? Like, you know, yeah, like you said, man, you got to fucking strike while the iron's hot. You got to get all you can before you get out of this shit.

And God has done it better than anybody else, I think. except maybe Connor. So yeah, go get it done, bro. Go have fun. I'll say it again. Look, we're in a combat sport. He's a combat sports athlete. Getting knocked out as part of the game. Like there's guys that, you know, it's because it's Francis Ingano and he's in the limelight and he got knocked out in a big fight. Like there's guys that get knocked out early in their career once or twice or sometimes even more than they go on to do great things. Like everybody's always so worried about our fucking brains and stuff. And so I understand that that's a thing, right?

That there's CTEs real. You know, I'm not some conspiracy theory or something. Like, it's real and it's an issue. But, like, we signed up for the shit. Like, what do you expect a guy to do? Like, he doesn't want to go run a business or, you know, like Connor wants to run a business, you know, good for him. He's a great businessman.

It seems like. And Gano wants to fight. Let him fight. Make the money. He'll be fine. Yeah, I mean, I joke, and I say this, and I joke about it, but I'm dead serious. Like, dude, you give me $30 million or $20 million. I'll take a bunch from Deontel Wilder.

I know it's going to end badly, and I'm going to get knocked out, but guess what? Unless he kills me, I'm going to wake up, I'm going to recover, and I'm going to have $20 million to bank. Yeah. You know, I mean, and in God, it was obviously an actual, like, legit fighter, so, you know, I'm not saying he couldn't win that fight. I'm not saying the odds are great, but he, you know, I mean, we're Wilder's that. Because, again, he's not calling out Daniel Dubois. He's not calling out Usik at this point. Like, we know that's not who he should be fighting.

And he's not. He's looking for the money fight. Yeah, and Wilder's, that's the one I always wanted. The Wilder fight is the one I always wanted for him. Yeah, and look, he's got two boxing matches. You know, the problem with boxing that is not as much the knockouts is the constant little blows that you're getting. And he hasn't taken a ton.

He's got two boxing matches. Yeah, and he didn't really take, he's never really taking a ton to his MMA career either. So it's not like he's on, it's like he's on borrowed time right now. you know what I mean? So yeah, no, I'm with you. I agree. Real quick, before we get out of here, I mentioned, of course, this weekend, Henry Sehuda is returning against Song Yadong, and I had a chance to talk to Henry last week, and he was very honest with me. He said, I'm making this last run, this last four-a-a-a-a-a-ta-ta-tot the title. He's 38 now. Doesn't look 38, but he's 38.

And he's like, I'm making one last run to this title, and this is kind of where it starts. He has two losses to Al Jermaine and Merabda-Wiles-Ville. Neither fight was a blowout. Like he became very close to beating Al-Germaine. that ended up being a split decision. And then he lost to Marab, lost two rounds to one, but it wasn't like in. It wasn't like he got absolutely destroyed.

But so I guess the question is, I'm not necessarily saying we need to pick him in Song Yadong, but is this kind of like with Henry saying this is the last run, is it kind of like do or die this weekend? Like, because you can't lose the Song Yadong and then say you're still making a run to the title, right? Like that's kind of where you're at. Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. I think there's no question about that. I never really care too much for the whole, like I'm making my last run. thing, you know, like, that's a, that doesn't convince me that you're in a great mental state to actually be making a run for the title. I, because I think, um, I think like when you're kind of coming up and looking for the title, like, you're not thinking of anything else, right? Like, that's the only thing on your mind. That's the own, that's your entire focus, is your entire goal. And if you're saying it's my last run, you're like, I'm going to try one more time. You know,

like, like when you're young and coming up, like, you don't believe there's, any chance of you not getting that title. I think Henry completely had that attitude, right? He was a thousand percent confident. He was there and he wasn't stopping until he got it. Now he's kind of like, I'll try one more time, see if my skills are that good. And that's just what it feels like to me. I don't know what his actual mentality is.

But that's generally, I think, the mentality that people have when they say that. I mean, I did the same shit when I was fighting, but, you know, I don't think is necessarily the best mentality. It doesn't give me a lot of confidence, but I do think song is a pretty good matchup for him, though. So I think it's, you know, and Henry can certainly make a run for the title. Like, he's that good, but, you know,

is he going to put in those extra hours? Is he going to put in the extra reps? Is he going to stay after training? Is he going to show up training early? Is he going to, you know, go to sleep dreaming about this shit, you know? Yeah. I don't know. Well, I mean, this, like I said, I mean, you got to, I mean,

like hearing him talk about, I think, you know, because he mentioned he's 38. Like, I think he knows. Like, he can't afford to lose fights right now at 38. You know what I mean? Right. If he's serious about getting back to the title, he can't drop three in a row. I don't care who those three in a row or two.

Sterling, Mrabb and Song all three good losses, but still losses, like it or not, their losses. Yeah. So I appreciate the honesty to say, like, I know this is probably, and maybe that's, maybe he needs that to put pressure on himself to say, I can't fuck around. Yeah, I can't. You know, I can't lose a round or two and think I'm just going to come back and win. I need to go out and put it on this guy. That's the way I took it.

But again, this is kind of mean, and I think also, and this is just me reading into it, I think he's putting the pressure on himself because he knows. He can't lose this fight. He can't lose this fight and still make that run? Can he lose and still put on entertaining fights and fight until he's 40? Sure. But if he loses to Song Yadong after already lose now, Jemena Marab, the chances of him getting back to a title shot at 3940 are pretty slim.

Not saying it's over. Michael Bisping proved me wrong on that years ago when I kept saying Michael Bisping was not going to get a title shot, then he goes out there and knocks out Luke Rockold. But percentage-wise, if he loses the song you don't, the chances of him getting back to a title shot are pretty slim. Yeah, I think especially in those lower weight classes, right? Like, you know, the higher the weight class, the easier it is to be an old man. So, you know, those little guys, they're so quick.

And I feel like the smaller weight classes are evolving faster, too. Like, you're seeing different techniques. You're seeing different athleticism. And it's just a different world when you get down there. but yeah like you said Henry has the ability to do it you know I think it's just going to require like you're in the UFC you know like there's hungry fucking lions thirsty for blood out there like if you're not feeling that same thirst you're going to have a hard time yeah it's tough it is tough and like I said man it catches up to everybody like it or not it doesn't it's hard like at 38 and being a bantan weight that's not again we've talked to I know we talk about this all the time like being 38 at bantamate is different than being 38 is a heavyweight. Totally different, totally different world. You know what I mean? So, yeah, there's a reason.

What is the statistic? Like, no one over 35 has ever won a title from like 155 and below or whatever it is. Like, that's, that's, I mean, there's a reason for that. Like, it's not a made-up statistic. So, you know, that's, he's fighting an uphill battle, right? Like, like it or not, he's fighting an uphill battle. But if there's a guy that can do it, it's Henry Sehuto, right? Like, he's proved us that he's one of the best in the world, elite athlete.

But again, I just think it needs that hunger. Yeah. And I don't know Henry personally, but, you know, just what I see on social media and, you know, interviews and things like that, I don't see that hunger in his eyes like, like you did when he was younger. Yeah, we'll see. And you also, I remember he's been competing for so long, man. He's been competing at the highest level. I mean, he's an Olympian in his, you know, early 20s. Never went to college.

Went straight to the Olympics, won gold medal. Last thing before we get out of here, Matt, real quick. Better be at Bivel, too. Who are you taking? I mean, I got Bivel. Yeah. I thought he won the first one, and I think he can get it done this time. I'm, God, I hate what we just always agree.

It's such a hard one, right? I know. I'm going to agree because I lean slightly to Better B.M. And the last one, I'm talking, like, just the closest of margins. Like, it could have easily gone the other way, and I wouldn't have complained. But I think that Better B.E. I realize on his power so much, and Bivel is just a better technician. and as long as he doesn't just stand in front of Better B'Eb, I think Bivel wins.

But man, what a fucking fight, dude. That's such a great fight. What a great fight. So it's a high-level fight. Also, I think B.Vol's a lot more dynamic, and it says he can change his game playing a lot more, and he can do a lot more different things. And he'll learn from the first one where Better Biav is, as good as he is, is pretty straightforward and pretty much does the same thing in every fight.

So I think B.V. knows what he's getting. Better Biav doesn't necessarily know what he's getting with BVol. Yeah, I know this is a bad comparison, but the best way I can give to the audience is like when Deonté Wilder was on his run, he needed that knockout. Like he lost a lot of rounds on the way to a knockout,

but he found a way to get the knockout. Now, I think BF is a better boxer, but I'm saying, like, that was the first time he'd ever want a decision. He knocked everybody else out. If that doesn't happen again, Are we going to play the odds and he can win another decision against a really, really good

technical box like Bivel? That's where I say like Eileen Bivel because could he knock him out? Sure, but, you know, so Eileen Bivel as well. Last one was a great. Last one was a great, a great fight. It's a great, great fight.

Such a high level fight. And I picked Bevowl in the first fight. I did think that he won maybe being a little biased because I picked him. But yeah, I'm going with the same again because I think, I mean, I do think he's a better boxer

than B. Vol, or than Better Biav. Hopefully, well, I mean, hopefully in the sense that, you know, I want to be right, you know, hopefully he can land a big shot to earn some of Better Biav's respect. I thought that was the big thing that he just never really got accomplished in the first fight. He just never really completely earned his respect where Better Biaf had to back down for a second, gather himself, rethink about what he's doing. You know, I did think Bavol outclass him for most of the fight, but, he just never landed that shot.

And he didn't show a ton of aggression either, especially in the early rounds, right? He looked like he was nervous about better be of it. And I thought that looked bad to the judges. So, you know, I'm with you. Like, I don't argue the judge's decision there. I had to vote winning. But you can't argue the judges when it's that close.

12 rounds, though? He spent 12 rounds. Now he knows the power feels like. Like, am I giving him some confidence? Now he knows. Now he knows. You know, that nervous energy early in the fight. which might be a bad thing too

he's like he's like dude that powers everything I thought it was going to be yeah do you give Joseph Parker a shot to beat Dubois that's the it seems like the Ousick sweepstakes in that one yeah probably not I'm not sure but I can't wait it's only 27 man I saw him fight on the undercard he was at that undercard when Jake Paul fought Tyron Woodley

in Cleveland I actually met him there and I was like I didn't realize I was like he's only 27 right now I was like that's insane for a heavy one only 27 So big dude too He is man Scary guy But yeah that's I think that's the one Because him and Usik had a little bit of controversy

In the first fight And yeah And as much as people don't like Shakur Like I'm excited to watch him fight again I know his last couple fights have Rubbed a lot of people the wrong way But you know It doesn't always have to be a war for me

I love seeing the skill And that guy's got skill for fucking days If he could just land a couple knockouts Dude he'd be the biggest thing in the world He's just he's just It's just nice I don't know if that's possible. Yeah, like I know, listen, when you go out there, show skill,

but, you know, people do like to see the knockouts, and, you know, that's not really sure. Steve's his game, so. I don't know if he can knock somebody out in power slap. We're just standing there. But it's like, but, hey, I love watching the guy, man. I mean, that skill level is next level. I think it's, I think he's going to learn how to sell himself a little bit, right?

Like, like, Floyd didn't knock a lot of people out, but, you know, he did it a little bit earlier until he hurt his hands badly, but, but, um, I think he's learned to sell himself better. I think it's really smart that he's like the third fight on a really big boxing card, because like, you know, like trying to get people to punk down 50 or $60 just to watch the corner main event, be like, no, I don't know about that, but you can put him on a car with Dubois and Parker and Bivel and Better Biav, you know, get people a little bit more interested me.

That's the way to go. So, yeah, that happens Saturday. And, of course, Saturday night, you have C, Seattle. There's another big fight on that card too. Is there another one on there? I'm trying to remember who it was. But I think there was four of them that I was excited for. Let's see.

Better be a, yeah. So it'll be interesting. Yeah, it's a good. I mean, it's an afternoon card. What is the other hole? I got the card pulled up right from here. Shakur Stevenson, Carlos Adamas and Hamza Shiraz, Virgil Ortiz and Ismail Madredov.

That's one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then Jay Le-Ley Jang, Big Bang, Zhang is fight on the undercard. It's a freaking insane card for just a random, Like, for, you know, you don't need anything beyond Bivel and Betterby, but yeah, it's actually a really good card under that. Yeah, you rarely see that in boxing these days.

So it's cool to see where boxing's going. Way to go, Turkey. Put it together, buddy. Matt, as always, man, obviously, I want to give people a chance to check you out, follow along, whatever you got going on. So where can people find you what you got happening in the world? Check me out on social media at I Am the Immortal on Instagram and Twitter, the immortal Matt Brown on Facebook.

I got to start posting my Facebook more. I always forget that I have it. I forget that I have social media. That's all right. We should probably all forget we have social media more often. You know what happens. Usually it's about three or four days. I'm like, oh, yeah, I should post.

Yeah. Like I said, we should all probably take a break from social media more often. As always, we do appreciate everyone to tunes in the show. We will be back next week with another edition of show. Make sure you check us out all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify. and of course over on the best website in the world, MMA Fighting.com. For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin. We will see you guys next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider.

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