MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Turner vs. Green Stoppage, Mike Perry’s Win, PFL Taking Lessons From BKFC

Episode Date: December 5, 2023

On the heels of UFC Austin and BKFC 56, The Fighter vs. The Writer returns with UFC legend Matt Brown and MMA Fighting senior reporter Damon Martin discussing the fallout from both events. Arman Tsarukyan capped off the UFC card with a stunning knockout over Beneil Dariush but was that enough to earn him a title shot or who should he face next instead? Brown also gives his opinion on the late stoppage involving Jalin Turner and Bobby Green and his preference for referees in his own fight career. We’ll also discuss BKFC 56 where Mike Perry remained undefeated in bare-knuckle fighting with a win over Eddie Alvarez in a wild fight that only lasted two rounds. Plus we’ll detail how BKFC has managed to carve out a niche in combat sports while promotions like the PFL are still trying to gain traction while attempting to goad the UFC into a war of words. All this and more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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In stores or online, it's time to go shopping at Nordstrom. The Vox Media Podcast Network. Writer versus the writer, I'm Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown, freshly returned from Florida. get some uh you got better weather in florida than you do here in ohio i'm bedding 80 degrees sunny beautiful cut uh got off the flight 40 degrees cloudy a little bit windy but dude i don't i don't care about the weather shit man i get so sick of people always talking about that as like bro if you don't like it like fucking just move there then like shut

the fuck up that's a that is a that is a that is a big contrast though to get from florida to ohio weather it is a contrast there yeah like it was a contrast but i don't like let it phase me you know i get sick at that shit the only time i do i admittedly let it it does phase me a little bit is around like march april time when the weather starts changing or like teasing that what's going to change and then it goes back to the snow because you know it is nice to have a warmer weather I don't doubt that, but I don't disagree with that or argue that. But it's like, you know, again, like, if you don't like it, like, fucking move, bro. Quit bitching about it, you know?

Like, don't whine. And if you're stuck here for whatever reason, like, you know, like I have family here, right? And they're not moving. So it's like, well, that's what it is, man. You can't control it. So fuck it, bro. Deal with it. Ohio toughens you up, man.

I got a friend, one of my friends who lives in California. And I was talking to him recently, and he said something like, he's like, yeah, I got kind of chilly out. So I had, like, I had like put on the heat and I get out the coats. And I was like, what's the temperature? He's like, 68. And I was like, Jesus Christ, that's summer here in Ohio. I was like, 68. I was like, come on now.

Like, it's, you know, until it gets down in the 40s, we don't put coats on here in Ohio. No, I wear shorts down to freezing, usually. After freezing, yeah, something. I'll even wear shorts and freezing sometimes. I'm that guy, you know, everybody's like, oh, yeah. fucking douchebag but I don't know it's comfortable bro what you're I was it's not like I'm like it's not like I'm like outside like hanging out in my shorts either you know it's like you walk to your fucking car that you got warmed up I remember years ago I was in Columbus for I want to say it was a

strike force show I think and uh I was walking down downtown by the renaissance which was always the hotel where the fighters stayed at here in Columbus and I was going to tip top cafe I was getting some food and I was walking by and I saw Gilbert Melendez and Gilbert sees me he spots like Dave what's going on man I was like what's up man he's like dude it's so fucking cold out here and it was like you know it was like mid 40s it was chilly but it wasn't like cold

he had like a park on he was all bundled up and I was like you California guys are not ready for this Ohio weather I was like I was walking like a witt I was walking like a hoodie and it's like 45 he's got like a park on the hood's up and toboggan he's like all covered up he's like guys it's cold out here and I was like dude it's 45 this is nothing and that was

probably during the Arnold's, which every year, that's the time that's so annoying, right? The Arnold's is the first weekend of March every year. One year it'll be snowing, freezing cold, wind blowing. Next year it's sunny. We're wearing shorts. It's beautiful. Yeah, yeah, I've known that. Because they used to have UFC events every March.

And it was like one year would be like 70 degrees and gorgeous. The next year it would be, you know, 20 in snowing without fail. Yeah, yeah. That's the time of year that, to me, is annoying. Again, it's like, who gives a fuck, bro? You know, pull up your breeches. and deal with the shit. Yeah, no, you're right.

Like I said, dude, I live in Ohio pretty much my whole life. So I've just learned to adapt to it. So that's just life here in Ohio, man. You get warm, you get cold, and they're definitely seasons here. What they do people need to find things to do in the cold, too, right? Don't use any excuse. If you, you know, if it gets cold, you know, put on jacket and go for a run, right? Like, what do you do in the warm that you can't do in the cold, right?

If you're active outside, right? Now you can't just sit out on the back porch when it's freezing cold, so you don't get that. But if you're going to go outside, you just got to do something. It should be a good reason to get moving when you're outside. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Or a great reason to get to the gym because everybody wants to sit around and play fucking video games and, you know, and get drunk and shit and go to the bar. It's like, we'll go to the gym, bro. It's cold.

You can't go outside. Go to the gym. Jim's warm. That's always warm. Yeah. The gym is warm. Hell, I go to the pool sometimes indoor. Just swimming in the wintertime.

Swim outdoors, man. Be a man. Jesus Christ, Matt. Why aren't you swimming outdoors in the cold? Come on. I've tried it and it's not that enjoyable. I got to be honest. You know what?

I feel like I wouldn't be nearly as bad if it was like a cold ocean. But when you go like to Allum Creek or like Hoover Reservoir and it's like, some brown-ass water and you're swimming with carp and shit you're like I'm not really that motivated to do this I got to be honest this isn't that much fun this isn't that much fun well anyways yeah you're down in florida doing some seminars how are the seminars and it was amazing it was uh we had a great weekend next weekend I'll be going to a new hampshire doing a seminar up there some um I love doing seminars man I love meeting new people seeing other gyms how they're set up how they ran how their culture is how the people there are

And a seminar is always just a great time. And you get to get out there and like I said, meet the new people, see new cities. And you're not there, you know, just as a tourist. Like the people are always welcoming.

You know, you're coming there and share your knowledge so that, you know, they're going to show you around and they want to show you how they live. And it's a great time. And I absolutely love doing seminars. So anybody, any coaches out there listening,

everyone hooked me over the seminar. Big, small shit town. We can, you know, figure out a price. I just love doing it. and sharing the knowledge. Did you, did you teach the elbow technique?

I saw on your Instagram with the kids learning how to do elbows. I was like, damn, that's an elbow technique right there. And you said, that's the proper way to do it. Did you teach us some elbows? So it kind of depends on like the crowd that is at the seminar.

This particular seminar was a very like hobbyist gym, which is actually a lot of fun, you know, because the people are extra welcoming. And the area that I was in was a little bit higher up area. so it was a lot more like wealthier people you know so these people they all got really cool things going on so it's always great talking to my like I met a guy down there who's a profession I don't know uh not not professional but a scuba diving instructor and when he does I forget what

they call it the spear fishing oh yeah but does it in the ocean right to um you know invited me out to come do that sometime you know a different guy like owns some charter boats and stuff he's like come out on the boat sometime. You know, so it's really cool meeting people like that. So we didn't go over elbows to get to your question. We didn't go over elbows because, you know, these were hobbyist people, right? They're basic, you know, they don't need to know elbows and they don't really, you know, they like to see me do it, right?

But, you know, for them, it's not going to help with the journey that they're on at the moment that they're, that I'm there. But be honest, everyone could use an elbow or two. come on now be honest like that's a that's a life trait everyone should not have thrown elbow well it is a nice thing i think it's a great self-defense technique but if you can't you know keep your feet under you when you're throwing a jab like that's true we'll save the elbow for later yeah yeah well they we uh we did see some punches and elbows a lot of other stuff throwing this weekend a lot of good fights this past week and of course arm and saruqi and shocked everybody first round knockout 64 seconds over benil der a

I think we got every pick wrong on the main card for that UFC Austin card. Devis and Vigaredo came out and kind of shocked everybody, put on a great performance against Rob Funt, Jalen Turner, knocks out Bobby Green, which, by the way, let's just go ahead and talk about that one. Let's talk about this, the referee stoppage. Like, I know you and I have talked about this on the show many, many times that we would rather see a fight go a little too long than go a little too short and not give a guy a chance to fight back. but what happened on Saturday night with Jalen Turner and Bobby Green was just egregious. That was awful. That was a horrible, horrible stoppage.

I couldn't agree more. That's exactly right, man. It was amazing that that ref was standing there watching that happen without stopping it. That was amazing. But even though I'm not nearly as mad about that stoppage as I am, some of the early stoppages, he absolutely gave him every chance. It was also, you got to just wonder what he was thinking or, because it was how clear was it that he was completely out? I mean, he was out, out.

Yeah, I mean, he gets hit. He gets hit and basically face planted and he's laying on the ground face down and he's just getting punched in the side of the head. Like that, I just, that's just one of those, like, I, like, him falling face first to the canvas the way he did. You could probably just wave it off right then and there. Like, he just. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then just let it be taken questions.

Carrie Hartley, yeah. Yeah, Carrie Hatley. I'm going to request Carrie Hatley in my fight. So he's, I would rather have that as a fighter. I would rather have that than the early stoppage. You know, like let the dude half kill me. Like take a couple years off my life. I don't want this fucking fight stop.

But I agree. It was egregious. It was absolutely fucking ridiculous. I mean, you were just like, like, dude, like, what are you thinking? like we're we're literally watching saying like what are you doing bro the only worst stoppage was evil vene when I fought piece out

yeah I always remember that fight I'll never forget the moment you knocked him down you literally looked at evil Levine and you're like are you gonna stop this fucking fight and he's just like he's just like he just kind of stood there he just stood there and you're like all right you just had to keep punching on poor Pete sell and you know why I kept looking at him too I did it a couple of times it was because I kept having flashbacks of Pete Sell fighting scots

Oh, yeah. I was like, I do not want this fucking happen to me, bro. Like, come on, just like he's out. Like, yeah. You know, it was a little different. Like, you know, that wasn't a body shot. Like, it was head concussion. But it was like, I'm flat.

I just remember during the fight, I was consciously thinking about being another Scott Smith. I was like, fuck, I don't want this to happen. It's so wild, though, because listen, I entered, like, there are times when it's a thin line, when we're like, you know, like, we talked about with Yeri and Alex Pereira. Like, we both agreed it was early, but it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't like the worst stoppage in history.

It was just early. It was, you could have let it go for five, six more seconds, probably would have ended up with the same result. We would have liked to see that extra five or six seconds. This one was so bad because Bobby Green literally gets clipped face first down on the canvas and then Jalen has to jump on him and he's just wailing on him and he's not stopping. It's not like he took one or two shots.

Jalen wailed on him for like 10 seconds. before he finally stopped it. Like that was one of those stopages where like everybody agrees. Like there was no question. There was no debate. It was just a horrible stop. I'm just like, what are you looking at?

Like I'm with you in terms of I'd rather have it stopped a couple seconds late than early to give that guy the chance to come back. But when a dude gets punched and face plants on the canvas, chances are he's not coming back. And then just to let him wail on him for 15 more seconds or whatever it was, it's just insane. Yeah. And that wasn't a couple seconds late.

Yeah. Like that was way, way late. He took a lot of shots. And the referee's looking at him. And, you know, I don't know what he was thinking. But, you know, he's just watching this happen from, you know, two feet away. So, yeah, it's just absolutely ridiculous. And that ref needs to be fired.

I could, you know, I think that's a, the issue we kind of go back to all the time. me and you talk about it many times. There's just no repercussions. Like from what I was reading on Twitter, like Carrie Halley's done this before. And as the commission, you know, me and you, well, at least me and probably you,

like we're always going to lobby against the early stoppage. I'd rather be late than early. But the commission, their job is to protect the fighters. So there needs to be consequences. Yeah, I said that. Whether it's early or late, But I think especially being that you are a commission there to protect the fighters, late. Yeah, I mean, yeah, there needs to be consequences.

Absolutely. I said that on Twitter last night. I said there's got to be some sort of punishment for that. Like you cannot let this guy. I mean, you know, he ate, what, 20 extra punches that he didn't need to eat in that moment. Like this wasn't, this wasn't, he got knocked down. He took like two extra hammer fists. You know, even like this isn't, I mean, I noticed it sounds terrible says.

Like this isn't even Dan Henderson knocking out Bisping and landing that one big bomb. That was the first thing came on for me. But like this is literally the guy's knocked out on the face first on the canvas and you're just wailing on him. Like that's just there's no question. Like this isn't one where there's a debate where we can say, well, you know, he gave him every chance. Bobby wasn't moving. Like he wasn't, he wasn't rolling. He wasn't doing anything to escape.

He's just getting punched in the head. And you're just like, okay, finally. And I'm just, and you're right. Like, this is the problem is that Carrie Hatley is going to go about his day, and he'll get another assignment when the UFC goes back to Texas or whatever happens. And we kind of move on. Like, it took, it took Dana White complaining nonstop for like two years straight to finally get Mario Yamasaki to not referee UFC fights because he hated that referee so much. And finally, commissions were just like, it's not worth it. And so we just stopped assigning him.

Now, Mario has come back. He was refereeing the fights of the PFL a couple weeks ago. He was out there doing that. Him and his brother, I think, are both referees in that D.C. area. But, yeah, like, I'm not, like, I don't know that Carrie Hatley is the worst referee in the world, but that stoppage alone should cost him a job or at least cost him from high-profile situations like this. Like, you cannot put him back in there with guys at this level. That was a co-main event.

Like, that's a huge fight. And you're just letting Bobby Green take unnecessary damage. And, again, I'm with you. Okay. then knocked down one more punch, hammer fist. Okay, like what happened with Armin Sarukian? He knocked down Benile. It was pretty clearly done, but he jumped on, had a couple of hammer fist.

Mark Smith jumps in and stops the fight. Did Benil take maybe a punch or two more than he needed to in that moment? Yeah, but it was all rapid fire. You know, Benil fell. Armand that's instinctually you're supposed to jump on and keep going. He hit him a couple more punches. Mark Smith, Russia, then stopped it. It was just a timing thing.

You know what I mean? But it was over. And Benil took a couple of. And Benil was down for a while if you watch that. He was down in the canvas for quite a while. but thankfully he got up he's okay. But I mean, you're talking about Bobby Green just like basically unconscious,

eating 20 punches to the sides of his head when he's already been concussed basically, when he's already been knocked out. Yeah, that's it. And I always give him the benefit of the doubt, even on the early stoppages that I hate, and the reason that I lobby that they should be a little bit, I'd rather than see him a little bit lazy

because I do give him the benefit of the doubt that this is a split-second decision of a person's career that you are controlled. going here to like if you go a little bit early like as mad as I am and as disgusted as I am and I do understand the high pressure situation that you're in as a referee in that moment in this particular situation is the same right it's a high pressure situation but he had a long time to think about it too you know what I mean it wasn't like like it was a split second like like Dan Henderson Michael Bisping like the referee had a

a moment where maybe he could have jumped in, but you know, you never know what's going to happen. So Dan Henderson ends up getting off one big shot. This guy had like 15 seconds to sit there and think about it. Yeah. Well, it's also like watching when Jorge Masvidol did the flying knee to Ben Askeran. He landed like the two extra punches. That's just rapid fire. Boom, boom, boom.

Like it's just the referee stopped it as quickly as he could. But he hits it with the knee. Horley immediately goes over Bam Bam, bam, and the referee stops it. You know what I mean? That's not, you know, we can always sit here and say the, you know, fighters can stop themselves. And we have seen that happen before. But we've also seen the reverse when you don't do that. And the guy comes back on you.

So your job, and that's what Jalen Turner said after the fight, my job is to go until the referee pulls me off. Jalen Turner did nothing wrong. That's his job to keep going until the referee stops him. And this isn't like two seconds. This is like, it was like 14 seconds. Like, not kidding. I count. It was like 14 seconds of Bobby Green just eating punches to the back of the side of his head.

and the referee just like, I don't know, what's going on here, and they finally stop. That's a long time to think about it, you know. So that's where I have to remove that benefit of the doubt of it being a high pressure split-second decision. Who do you think? I'm curious, like, again, like every referee is capable of making a mistake.

I mean, even the best referees are capable of making a mistake, but who do you think is the best referee right now? Like, I think Mark Goddard's incredible. I think he's by and large, like, one of the top referees. I still think he does overall the best job, but I'm kind of curious as a fighter. Like, who do you like seeing in there as a third man in the cage? For my own fights, I've always liked Dan Mergi Lada, actually.

And I know he's made some mistakes. I know that he's taking some heat at different times for different mistakes. But for my fights, he's always given me a good chance, and it's always been a good. But to be honest, also, I haven't had to deal with rest. very much. I don't know why. Just my fights have always been pretty clean. Most of the time, I don't even remember who the ref was.

I don't really talk to them much when they come back and give me the little rundown of what they're going to do. I don't really ask questions. I'm just like it is what it is. There's only been two times where I was stopped, right? I was knocked out once by Cowboy and it stopped two other times in all of my fights. And both times I thought they were early. But I don't even remember who the refs were.

you know, I didn't care, you know, so I understand that even the best ref in the world can make a mistake. So it's like, you know, again, I understand that it's a high pressure, split second decision. So I understand and don't, you know, I'm kind of like eerie about it. You know, it's like, you know, you just got to go on with the Warriors Code, man. You know, if if you don't like the situation that the ref imposed on that, then you should have changed the situation. Shouldn't have been there to start with and put him in that situation. Yeah, and I know Dana said afterwards he felt bad about it, like he wasn't trying to stand by his decision. He said he felt bad that it went on as long as it.

And again, that's great. You know, just there's still got to be repercussions for that because there's a, if a fighter, if a referee steps in between you to stop a fight and you swing again and hit the guy after the referee tries to stop it, you would face a fine. The commission would 100% suspend you, find you something if you swung after a referee got between you, you just kept swinging and didn't stop. Or you push the referee and swung again or whatever. You would absolutely get fined or suspended for that. I'm not saying Kerry Hatley should never a referee again. I'm just saying that he should absolutely face some sort of repercussion for that. There has a consequence.

And I don't actually know how the commissioners do it. So I can only be so critical of them because I don't know if they even have processes for that. I don't know what kind of analytics maybe they run. You know, like how many fights did this guy ref? and how many, you know, had questionable errors in it or, you know what I mean? I always wonder if they do run any sort of analytics like that. I have seen some. I remember I looked into it at one point and I had seen some statistics on, I think it was

an Athletic Commission website or maybe someone on Twitter or something random numbers or something, but there was like some numbers available. So I wonder if they take that into consideration. and, no, excuse me, just burp. And if they use that, you know, when they, if I've never heard of a referee getting any repercussion or consequence for anything, which is what I think all of us would like to see.

But if they do, I wonder if they would take those analogics. Like if you do 100 fights, if Carrie Hatley had 100, you know, 200, 300, perfect fights with no real questionable decisions. And then he makes this one mistake. stake with Jalen Turner and Bobby Green. It's like, you know, does he really deserve a repercussion, right? Like statistically, he's a very good ref. But if this is a common thing, it's like, okay, at what point do we start making

repercussions? Yeah. Like I said, listen, we all agree it's a very difficult job. You know, it's not easy. Just like judging, I understand it's not easy when you got close rounds and things like that, but there are certain situations where you have to be called out like that. Like, we talked about the judges before. and we said we have to say their names

so we understand this is just isn't blind judging like this is this person has made this call to get the wrong call in a fight Carrie Hatley is the guy's name he needs to be called out for this and again I don't I'm not saying he's a bad guy or you know and I'm not saying you should never referee again but that was like that was just

I know you joke like give me Carrie Hatley in my next fight but like that's the reality like listen there's a fine line but that was beyond the fine line like that wasn't even like the fine line of like Well, he let it go a couple seconds too long. No, that was like 14 seconds of punches when Bobby Green's unconscious. That's a different story.

You know, that's not your fight, the one you had with, what was that kid's name from Florida that, oh, the young kid you fought and it was an early stoppage. Why am I not thinking of the kid's name, young kid? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, him. When you fought him, that was an early stoppage. You know what I mean? But you weren't face down on the canvas eating punches either, you know? I mean, like that was, you know, so like I said, there's, there's air on the side of caution,

and then there's the reverse, which is what Gary Hatley did, where he's like, well, let me just make sure these guys really knocked the fuck out. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, like I said, I mean, you know, these guys, they rough hundreds of fights, you know, at least in Ohio, you know, like you're going to have, you're going to see the same guys on these regional shows all the time. So they're getting practice all the time. So you just wonder, you know, how many mistakes are they making?

And if, you know, if the commission has any. sort of protocol for, okay, if you, you know, if you have like five, ten, whatever questionable fights, like we're going to start doing something about it. Yeah, I remember having back before we started doing the show regular, I had Frank Trig on, who is now a referee and judge doing the sport. We had a conversation because we were talking about him and like Chris Leibin have now gone on to become referees and judges in California. And we were kind of having the conversation about why more fighters don't do that. Because the conversation is always we wish we could get more fighter people at least with martial arts experience involved

on that side of the business whether it's judging or refereeing and he told me he's like one of the reasons why a lot of guys don't do it in california is because Andy foster the executive director out there who i think is the gold standard of commissions he makes you go through rigorous testing like you have to go you have to referee like two you have to at the lower low amateur level and you have to refer like 200 five some ridiculous number and you have to judge like 300 rounds before he'll even consider you for like bigger shows like not even talk UFC like just the next level of like LFA or whatever and then once you get all this experience then he'll start considering you for

UFC cards or or you know PFL Bellets or whatever it is and he's like I think that's the reason why a lot of guys don't do it because you have to put in a lot of work to pass like Andy Foster's eye test that you're ready and I think that's brilliant I got a funny feeling Texas doesn't do that I don't think Texas does that at all. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Texas Commission is not one of my favorite commissions. So, yeah, it's just weird.

Like I said, I would love to see that happen as well. But what Trigg said makes sense. And I think more people should follow Andy Foster's lead. Yeah, maybe that's something I might be interested in one day. Support for this show comes from Chase. If you're a fan of women's sports, you're always looking for ways to get closer to the action. And your Chase card can get you exactly that.

With a Chase card, you can experience more. That means access to pre-sales, preferred seating, and more savings. For more information about how to step into a world of more with Chase experiences, visit chase.com slash experiences. Benefits available only to eligible Chase card holders, deposit and credit card products provided by JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A., member FDIC. Terms, conditions, restrictions, and limitations apply. support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two, ghosts in the machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudulian and the rest of the Phoenix colony

have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprise his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbus. The Downloaded. It's a thought-provoking sci-by journey where identity, memory, and morality collide.

Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The Downloaded 2. Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. There you go. There you go. Also, we mentioned, of course, Armand Saroo-King, got the big knockout of B'Neill Daryushman.

What a performance. What a statement. to go out there and knock out a guy like that in 64 seconds. Looked like it was turned into a fun fight. B'Neil always hits hard. It's a fun guy to watch, but, man, Armin hit him with that right hand off the knee and just absolutely obliterated him.

And what a performance. Yeah, and you know what, that knee didn't even land. It just got Bineal to lift his head back up, you know. If I remember, right, I think Bineal got hit with a very similar knee. Maybe it was Charles Olivera, but somebody, he had been hit with that before. I still couldn't remember who I was traveling all day today, so I didn't get to look it up or anything.

But he has been hit with that before. So I think Armand had probably game plan for that and was expecting B'Neill to duck his head like that through the knee, perfect time, and followed it up with that right hand. So it looked to me like it was a strategic game plan thing that they had probably practiced throughout camp. Yeah, but he'll got...

Particularly knowing that he threw it so early in the fight. Because usually one thing I've noticed with a lot of fighters is like, you know, you have this whole game plan. They have his whole strategy, you practice all these things. And early in the fight, they use all those things. And then as the fight evolves, they kind of started adjusting, you know, based off of what's actually going on versus what they expected to go on. And this one seemed like it was just a everything, all the puzzle pieces. just fell right into place and I think he had gameplan for it and hit it spot on perfect. Yeah, it was crazy when you watch the replay.

He, the knee slid by. The B'Neill avoided it, but when he moved his head back, he threw that right hand. And talking about power off one leg because he still had his knee in the air when he threw that right hand and hit him and knocked him out. Man, what an impressive performance. And I think we've all, I think we've all raved about Arm and Surrogate at one point or another to say, this guy's going to be a future contender. When you can come in on day one on short notice and give Isis, McAche have a three-round fight and it was not like a one-sided beat down like he gave him a good

fight even in his first UFC fight that's super impressive and now like we're talking about him in the same conversation like I think you know like I've said this before and I'll say it again I think Justin Gaichi should get the next title shot I believe him beating Fazeve and him beating Desta Porre has earned him that shot and while I have absolutely nothing against Charles Oliverr I think the one win over Benile after just getting pretty much manhandled by Islam. I think you should get one more win. I think Armin and Oliver would be the fight to make man. I would love to see that one. And then the winner of that gets the winner of Gaichi and Islam. I think that's a perfect transition to move into that. Or I mean, because if I'm Gachi,

like Gaii's been promised to title shot, why would you, like you just took out of Fiziv, who was a young gun, and then you take out Dustin Porier. He's clearly earned a title shot, right? But you could question Olivera a little bit. He got beat, got pretty much manhandled by Makachev, and then he beat Benile, super impressive win. But I'd like to see him get one more, just like Gachi had to get one more. Gaci had to be two top guys to get back there. I think that should be Olavera's path as well.

I think Olaver and Armin makes a lot of sense. That does make a lot of sense. I hadn't actually thought about that. I think that's a great matchup too. You know, how do you see that fight going? It's the question, because, boy, I could see that going a lot of different ways straight off top of my head.

that is a really, really hard fight to predict at all. And yeah, I can't, I can't even come up with any ideas at all how that fight turns out. That's what I love about it though, right? Like, that's what's great about a fight like that. Like, I couldn't begin to tell you who would win. Like, Olavera is a monster. On his best day, he could be at anybody. But Armin has looked incredible.

And Armin is like 27 young gun, you know what I mean? like in that performance against benille and he dusted benille quicker than olivera did i think that'd be a perfect number one contenders like armin is he's firing on all eight cylinders right now everything his momentum's on his side everything is going his way whereas charles you know it seems like he's cylinders misfire every now and then i've always felt that way about him i know he had a long streak there for a while um but even then like his performance performances kind of go up and down a little bit. You know what I mean?

Like he kind of makes like these huge errors at times. Seems like maybe mentally he's not all the way there at times. But when he's all the way there, everything's there. And he's firing on all eight cylinders. I think he's easily one of the top five pound for pound best in the world. He's just not consistently doing that. Yeah, 100% agree. Yeah, when he's on, man, like I said, I learned to stop betting against him.

I kept picking against him. I was like, I picked poor age. to beat him, Big Gachi to beat him, and he beats both of them. So Charles Lover is a monster. But I think Oliver Armin would answer that question. Like if he could beat Armand Sarukia, no doubt he gets the title shot. Move on. And because I know I talked to Banyl about this before the fight, you know, he kind of leaned

towards Justin as well, not anything against Oliver, but he said, you know, Islam hasn't fought him before. It's something new. And this is the new Justin Gachie, a guy who's kind of adjusted his game plan where he's not just going out there swinging for the fences with every opponent he faces. He's actually going in there with a bit of a game plan. and smarter strategy and, you know, fighting smart. And I think that would be an interesting matchup with him and Islam.

I'm not saying he beat Islam, but I think it would be a fun fight. And I think Justin knows. I mean, Justin's acknowledged, like, he's coming towards the end of his career. He's only going to get so many title shots. This might be his last one. So let's get it done. Let's make it while they're still in their prime. And then, you know, Oliver can fight Armin in a real number one contenders fight.

And guarantee you beat Armini, and Benil back to back. You deserve your title shot. if Armin could knock out or beat Olaver after beating Vaniel the way he did do. Give that guy a title shot. I agree. I think that's pretty easy matchmaking, honestly. Like, all those pieces fit perfectly together. Justin Gagie v. Islam is an amazing fight.

You know, we seen what happened with Khab. And it's almost, I mean, Khab took him down so easily and submitted him so easily. It was almost odd. You know, like, it was like Gage didn't train any wrestling at all. So you got to think he's going to come in better prepared. He's more of a tactician now, like you said. He's going to come in better prepared for Islam, and I think he could surprise Islam. Yeah, I think it would be a really fun fight.

I'd like to see that one. Again, it's nothing against Charles. I just think that, you know, when you get handled that, I won't say easily. Easily, when you get handled that one-sided in a fight, to me, you've got to do a little bit more to get back there and earn it. You know what I mean? One fight, it should be at least two fights, and I think beaten Armin, he beats Armin. He beats Arminu, give him the title shot. I got no problem with that.

But for right now, I'd say, let's see Gaichi and his. Islam and let's put Armand again in there against Oliver and how's all I mean our arm and oliver is a fucking amazing fight like that is going to be a war yeah I say put them both on the same card too yeah I love that that's a that's a great co-main main right there that's a I love it's an awesome fight that's an awesome night of fights and it sets it up for a big card in the future for the winner of those two fights and yeah that that's an exciting division right now man There's a lot of studs in that division and a lot of guys that I think could really shine through at any point in time because we were kind of getting used to seeing all the same guys, right, Gagie and Porier and, you know, but guys like Armin coming up now, you know, this really ignites the division, in my opinion. Absolutely. Absolutely agree. We also saw Deveson Figurado make a great debut of Bant's weight. You and I did not see that coming. We thought Rob Fon striking, his jab would just be a little bit,

too much, but boy, Devison made a great adjustment. He looked good in there. He outstruck Rob Font, which is not easy to do. I was a little concerned about how the size would be different. I mean, you know, Devison was a big flyway, but there's still a big jump to go up and fight big bantam weights. And we'll see how he does when he gets to like the Corey Sandhagans of the world, who are really big, you know, bantam weights. But super impressive, man. I was, I was blown away by how Figueredo approached that fight. He started a little slow and once he started going man he looked great i agree and he took away all of rob's best weapons i mean i think we all of us had probably been you talked about we agreed like rob's jab is probably going to be

too much like he's got a phenomenal jab he lends it well he sets things up with it well and he'll probably just jab on night uh especially being the bigger taller man but you know what davison didn't look undersized he was certainly shorter but that he's you know, you can be shorter or not undersized. He was certainly shorter than him, but he didn't look undersized. It looked like his power carried over for the most part. Maybe not quite as much power coming up and weight, but it seemed like he, you know, he stung Rob when he hit him.

And his strength was there. You know, he was able to take Rob down, which was very, very easily. Wasn't able to hold him down. Rob was able to get up a few pretty quickly. but Davidson I thought the other part that that kind of took me back a little bit watching him was that strategic wise being the shorter man knowing you're going against a guy with a good jab his feet handled that really well his feet were very quick he maintained he controlled the distance very very well and I didn't unsee those qualities when he fought Brandon Marino right he went in he went in brawl a lot with Brandon Moreno. And I thought, dude, that's just not going to work well against Rob Font. But he made it

work. He took away his best weapon, the jab, and went there, and actually technically outstruck him very well, took him down when he wanted to. Beautiful performance by Davidson. And also show great conditioning, right? Because that had kind of been something to come back to biting when he had bad weight cuts, which we kind of come to

expect when you have a bad weight cut. That can come back to bite you. He had great conditioning. It looks strong all three rounds. Like he was still putting it on Rob. hard. There were a couple moments where I thought, man, if he could put together the right combination or he might finish this fight because, as you said, he's stung him a couple of times and Rob is definitely hurt. Rob's just an incredibly tough dude, so it's hard to put him away. But yeah, really good transition. And I said, I know a lot of people were throwing out ideas

afterwards saying, well, let's see Devinson and maybe Peter Jan. I said, listen, I know Al Jermaine Sterling has talked about going up to fly a featherweight and he's talking about this Max Holloway fight. I think Deveson and Al Jame would be a really fun fight. Like two ex-champs, ex-flyweight champ, ex-Bantonweight champ, I think that'd be a really fun one. I think that'd be a very interesting fight for sure, right? Because I'm not sure how Davidson went. Davidson has always surprised me.

You know, the way he fought Moreno, what, three times, right? Four times. Four times, yeah. You know, he always surprises me how he would, when he fought Rob Font last weekend, surprised the shit out of me. probably surprised most people. Again, mainly how he handled his jab and how he was tactical and strategic about it.

He's not like that technical-looking guy. Right? Like if you watch like a Peter Yon, like he looks very technical, stays in really good position all the time. Davidson doesn't look like he has those qualities, but he's able to work with what he's got and make it work. So the way he made it work would be interesting

because a lot of that stuff doesn't carry over as much in grappling, right? You can't just kind of like scramble your way out of things against the guy like Al Jermain. You can't kind of, you know, rely on your athleticism and speed and things like that, especially against the grappler like Al Jermaine. So I'd be very curious in that fight. I'd love to watch it and see how he kind of strategizes and how that fight would play out. I think it would be fun too because Al Jameen, if he does stick around a band to win, and he's beating so many of the guys already.

It's like that would be a fun different fight. to give him. It would still mean Devinson is still a former flyweight champion. Like it would still be cool to see that. Just like I would have loved to a scene back in the day when Demetrius was around. Like I would have loved to see Demetrius go up and fight some of those bantam weights and things like that. And I think the same kind of thing here.

And obviously, Devison made a great transition. And kudos to him for that. Also, another one that I'm not, I was not surprised by the performance, but I was a little surprised at how one-sided it was. Was Sean Brady taking out Calvin Gaston the way he did? I mean, that was as one-sided a fight, as you can see, just took him down at Will, mauled him on the ground, had him in bad positions throughout the fight, and then eventually he gets to Camara, which how many times we had, when's the last time we saw Kimora,

finish a fight in the UFC? Or Kalamazum, has you ever been submitted before? He did get to me, he got that heel hook from Jack Kramanson that one time at middleweight. He did get that, but that was a super, like, that was a rapid fire, like, boom, boom, he got caught and got tapped. But no, not often. I tell you what, Sean Brady. Or even how often have we ever even seen Kelvin Gasselman taking down that easily

and controlled on the ground like that? Not often, if ever. I can't remember ever really getting taken down like that. Yeah, and controlled like that. Like he couldn't get back up. I mean, I remember seeing him getting taken down before, but he'd be able to pop right back up. And when I watched the first round, I thought, man, you know, is that Kelvin just, you know, is he just, you know, the weight cut, maybe he got to him, maybe he's gassed out a little bit.

But every time he came, all three rounds, when he started off, he looked fresh. He looked good. He looked like his cardio was holding up. He looked like, you know, he still had popping his punches. He just wasn't able to land him. Sean Brady just imposed his will, did exactly what he wanted to him. And so with that said, I had to give credit to Sean Brady. That's not one of the, because I get really, really tired of here.

people do that where they give the excuse for the guy that lost versus giving credit to the guy that won. Yeah, and also, and that exactly to your point, I tweeted on Saturday night, I said, I hated after he lost to Bilal Muhammad, everyone said, oh, Sean Brady wasn't the real deal, he just got exposed. How about Bilal Muhammad is a freaking good fighter? How about you give credit to that guy? In my opinion, the most underrated fighter in MMA today is Bilal Muhammad.

People do not want to give this guy credit for how good he. is when he beat gilbert burns oh well gilbert had a shoulder injury and he couldn't really fight he won and he won in dominant fashion on a week and a half notice against one of the best welter weights of the world and gilbert burns who just fought before that jilbert was certainly a better position to fight that fight that boul was and boulat he beat sean brady he knocked out sean brady shon braddened off his takedowns and knocked him out on the feet in the second round instead of tearing down sean brady let's give credit where credit's new shan brady is a really good fighter guess what belal bahamah is a really freaking good fighter too that's exactly right

and bala has been um it just goes to show how good belal is what sean brady just did to kelvin gastol him i mean he dominated him in every aspect from beginning to end and and then ended with submission. I mean, it's very, very impressive. And, you know, it goes to speak, you know, all the rumors that you hear about Sean Brady being so strong. And I think we just seen that that's a factual statement now. Yeah. And I believe, listen, in my, in my heart of hearts, I believe Below should be the guy fighting for the title next weekend or two weeks against Leon Edwards. You know, you know, say what you about Colby Covington. It's not like a knock on him. But Balow's earned it, man. It's a joke he's not fighting for that title in two weeks. It really is.

with what he's done and the run he's on right now, it's just so stupid that he's not fighting for that title right now. Yeah, and everybody agrees with you. I don't think there's too, you know, there's no one that really is going to disagree that. Or we all know why Colby's getting the shot, and we understand, and we're all cool with it, right? We're like, dude, like, it's going to be fun.

And Colby does have a good shot of winning this fight. I mean, he's not, you know, some slouch off the street. Like, you know, he did. whether he deserves it or not is, you know, again, we could throw that word out of the vocabulary. What we always talk about in terms of the UFC? But look, like he could go in there and absolutely win this fight. And there's no question about it.

But, you know, if we put deserve back in the vocabulary, it's all below Hamamah, no question. Yeah. And there's what, like I said, yeah, we'll break down Leon and Colby next week and we'll kind of give our picks and everything. but I certainly don't think that's a fight. Colby can't win. I think he absolutely can win that fight.

I just think on Merit, you know, Balawan like a nine-fight beat, unbeaten streak, you know, and Colby on a one-fight win streak against the guy who is now retired no longer in the UFC. Doesn't really measure up, but hey, that's the sport. I get it. Again, like you said, we all know why Colby. Colby's not getting this shot because he's on a 10-fight win streak and he's truly the number one. He's getting it because he's the biggest name in the division,

not, you know, the champion or maybe Kamar Usman. And so he's getting it. Like, again, I've given up that fight. Like, I'm not fighting it any longer. I just say that in a right world, Bala Mahama would be fighting for that title next weekend, not Kobe Covington. But, again, we all understand.

That's why we always joke on this show, and we say it truthfully, Connor McGregor is always one win away from a title shot because he's Connor McGregor. You can sit here a bitch and moan and complain about it all you want. He's Connor McGregor. If he goes out and dust Michael Chandler when they finally do fight next year,

and he says, I want Isla McAchev, who's going to say that can't happen? Because it's Connor McGregor, and Islam would be a massive, massive fight with the Ravel with Khabi and all the other stuff going on. Not saying it would be a good fight, not even say it would be a competitive fight.

I'm saying that that's just the lay of the land. That's the world we live in, like it or not, and we've just kind of come to accept it. Is that if they fight or when they fight? I think it's a win they fight. I think they'll fight next year. I think you OC 300 is kind of, I think everyone's kind of like got their eyes on that

when it's going to happen. but I think it's when it's going to have it's not if it's when I mean I follow a lot of these Instagram accounts or I don't know they show up on my feet or some shit where sometimes I never know if they're real or not today I seen one come up it says Ronda Rousey versus Misha Tate UFC 300 truth or fiction oh 100% fiction 100% percent Ronda Rouse is not five no chance no chance zero chance she is not coming back guarantee she is never she is never coming back to fight again she's not she's not really doing pro wrestling right now anymore. She's just, but

I wondered if she wasn't doing so much pro wrestling because maybe she's getting ready to back and Dana just said the other day he's got a super fight in the works. I don't know what that way. Or is that going to be MVP and Kelvin Holland because I couldn't imagine

Dana calling that a super fight. No, I think he's got, I don't know what else he's got in mind with the whole superfight idea, but I don't. That's the other rumor that people are spitting out there. I don't know. I don't Maybe it's Nate Diaz coming back to the UFC. Maybe that's the super fight somewhere there.

But it's not, it's not, I highly die. I would say it's highly, highly, highly unlikely. It's Rhonda Rousey. I think she's done fighting. I don't think she wants to come back to fight. Why would she? You know what I mean? Like, what does she have to gain at this point?

The sport is kind of, she's beyond the sport. And no, I don't. And she's beating Misha, what, three times? Like, what's, like? It would be like coming back and then she loses. and like it's like when it's like when chuck ladell got knocked out by tito artis do we really feel like that was a legitimate knockout like yeah he did lose but was that the same chuck ladle who fought 10 years ago was one of the best fighters in the world probably not is ronda rousey in

2023 or 2024 the same ronda rousey was wrecking people back in 2016 i don't think so all right all right so do you have any predictions guesses or anything of the sort for this so-called super fight that's going to be coming up my only I don't know who, I don't know who it would be necessarily, but I mean, when you say super fight, it's got to mean something, right? Like, it can't just be like two guys from different weight classes. That's not a, that's not a super fight. So who's out there that doesn't have a fight booked right now?

Well, Connor is one. That's a guy who could potentially be out there. What he said it doesn't involve Connor, right? Yeah. So Adasanya would be another one because he doesn't have a fight booked right now, and he's kind of like a tweener. He's kind of like, you know, not really saying what he's doing. out there and he's a star. I think that's a possible. We know it's not John Jones because he's

fighting in July and it's going to be Stipe most likely, or it's going to be July most likely against Stipe's, so that's out of the works. I mean, who else is out there that's really a big enough name to withdraw like that? Like, you know what I mean? Like who's really out there that would do that? I mean, there's not a lot of options in all, like, Hamzot and Adasania. Maybe that's like the quote-unquote super fight? I don't know. Like, I don't really know what he's talking about or who he'd be talking about regarding that. yeah i just found it interesting because uh i swear it wasn't an hour after i seen that quote from dana all this bullshit's popping up on my feet i'm like what's real and what's not because i can't figure

it how i was seeing gs p d as and then see ronda misha tate and you know all this all this shit and i was like damn i don't know what's real now yeah yeah i don't think that one's real i think misha Holly Holie Holme is the fight to make. Misha looked good on Saturday night. She got a big win, dominant win over Julie Avala. Run that one back. Holly's coming off a tough loss to Myra Bueno Silva. That first fight was great.

I was at it. It was back and forth, five rounds. Then Misha ends up getting the choke and winning the title. I think now's the time to run it back. Misha's, Misha looked great on Saturday night. She dominated Julie Avala and then choked her out or technically neck cranked her out. And then, and then Holly's coming off a tough loss to myer, Buenos, Silva. I think right now is the time to run back.

two big names, both, you know, kind of in the division. Let's just run that back. Okay, okay. I like that. I like that. Yeah, that's a good fight. How old is Holly, by the way? 41, I think, 41.

I was going to say, she's got to be close to the end, huh? Yeah, yeah, like 41. So, yeah, I mean, you could, I mean, Misha, I know Misha's good friends with Juliana Pena, you could run that one because they would be, I think that'd be interesting. And I think, you know, Juliana doesn't have a single win over anybody on current UFC roster, so it'd be nice to see her beat somebody before getting a title shot because she missed out on this one coming up because it's going to be, you know, Myra, Buenos Silva and Raquel Pennington.

I would like to see Juliana Pena get one win over somebody on the current UFC roster, but I don't know if she'd fight Misha because they are good friends and they train together forever, but they don't train together anymore, so, you know, maybe they run it. Maybe Juliana fights Misha. Yeah, yeah, a lot of interesting matchups out there. What do you think, Sean Brady after his win? and he called out Ian Gary, who is now apparently the new Michael Bisping, the most called out fighter in UFC history all of a sudden

where everyone wants a piece of Ian Machado Gary. Yeah, what do you say about Ian Gary, man? Like, what a interesting character, huh? Interesting life he lives. And, you know, they say all PR is good PR, though. So this guy, he's getting all the PR right now. And, you know, we're talking about him right now. So, you know, much respect to him.

And he's a world-class talent. Like I you know I'm not sure that he's the guy to be calling out You know, okay Now matchup wise like him and Sean Brady Obviously I think Sean Brady is probably one of the Worseer matchups for him But we don't know what his grab Maybe you might have seen him

I haven't seen really what his grappling game is like Or you know really not a lot defense Yeah not a lot I mean that would that would certainly test him Because you know Sean Brady would absolutely try to see what kind of wrestling and grappling defense he has, and it would be interesting. He's got those, you know, Ian's a very tall, long guy. I think it'd be really interesting to see that fight. I don't know if it'll happen. He's got Vicente Lucke coming up next weekend. That's a fun fight. I did like the Ian Gary, the Wonderboy idea. I know

Ian Gary pitched that to me and about every other journalist he spoke to, and I like that matchup. I think it would have made a lot of sense, but, you know, I do like Shavkat and Wonderboy fighting as well. But, yeah, like, It's so funny, like, and Sean Strickland, let's just be honest, Sean Strickland kind of rocketed Ian Gary into the spotlight again, because when Sean Strickland's like a dog with a bone, man. When he gets, when he gets, when he finds something on somebody and he starts picking at you, he is relentless.

Like, Sean Strickland will go ham on you if you give him that opportunity. And boy, did he go ham on Ian Gary. And he did not stop, man. He just went off. And then, like, everybody just starts piling on. and Sean Strickland weirdly, like, he doesn't strike me as, like, the greatest trash talker in the world,

but man, he is vicious in his social media game. He's always got something to say, that's for sure. So he may not be a trash talker, like Connor, be able to put you down and all this shit, but he's always got something to say, right? He's going to keep talking.

And you got to love the dude, man. Like, he's a genuine man's man, right? You know, you may or may not agree with everything he says, but he's a man's man. And you know he's going to be a fun dude to go have a beer with and, you know, eat some hot dogs at the baseball park with or something. Like, this is just a dude that is fun as hell. And, you know, but he's also the kind of guy you can probably only handle in doses, too. You don't want to spend the whole evening with him having dinner with all your friends because

you're like, okay, dude, I've had enough. Go somewhere else now. We all have these friends in our life. Absolutely, absolutely. But, yeah, I mean, Strickland was just relentless, man. Like, he just, he went after Ian Gary. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong, by the way. I'm certainly not placed in judgment.

And I'm certainly not placing judgment on anyone's relationship. Certainly not my place. It's not really anyone's place to place judgment on Ian Gary and his wife. And I don't dig into any of that. I don't dig it at all. I don't like it. I've only interviewed Ian once after his last win. I did an interview with him.

And I know his wife followed me on Instagram. once we booked the interview, and I know who she was. I know she does stuff with karate combat and stuff. But, yeah, I'm not, I don't really get into that stuff. Like, I think there is a, I think to me, when it comes to, you know, trash talk in the sport, like, there is a boundary. Like, I've said it me. I said it to him.

You can go back a list of my interview. It's online. It's on video on M.MA Fighting's YouTube channel. I said, listen, I know, you know, Ian holds Conner McGregor in very high regard. There was Irish, you know, obviously, you know, from the same place. And, you know, Connor's the biggest star. I said, even Connor, like, I used to think Connor was the funniest, just the nastiest dude with trash talk.

And then it's just like at some point, he just lost material. And when he started insulting Khabib's wife and all that kind of stuff, like, that's where it got uncomfortable and I just lost interest in. And we started talking about Porre's wife. And I'm like, let's not, let's just stop. Like that's, I don't, you know, don't draw that. There's no reason. Like, you know what I mean?

Like, they didn't, they're not, just because they're married to a fighter doesn't mean they has to be drawn into your bullshit. Like, I don't, I don't go for that. Like, be more. creative. Connor was the most creative guy ever with the red panty night and the who the fuck is that guy the Jeremy Stevens thing. Like all those

were hilarious but when you start bringing in like Dustypore his wife, Khabibu's wife like I got no I got no interest. So kind of the same thing here like I'm not defending Ian Gary but I'm saying like I just I don't know man I get uncomfortable when it gets like people's families and stuff like that like insult the dude say sucks at fighting and pick him apart but I don't know like it just I always get a little uncomfortable

it turns like the wives of fighters or husbands or whatever it is. Yeah, no shit, man, because that's a, because it's also some, there's a couple of different pieces that are, right, where when you're insulting someone's family, you know, it's something that, for one, like, you don't even understand it, right? So, like, you're insulting, so it doesn't actually carry any meaning, right? So it's like you're trying to cut deep into something, but you don't actually understand it, right?

if you talk about like red panty night or you know the shit like that it's like we all get that and those become iconic so to speak uh quotes like we all talk like red painting night's like a phrase now that we use you know or or if you know when i see somebody come in the gym that hasn't been that for a while oh who the fuck is that guy right like these are commonly known phrases or someone throws a spinning technique you're like oh we're throwing spinning shit now right like these are phrases that become iconic. When you start like fucking with people's wives and and families, like we don't remember that shit. We're like, dude, that was a low blow. You know what I mean? Like we don't need to hear that shit. Like you said, it's not creative. And it doesn't like, it doesn't strike a chord with anybody,

you know? Because what we feel like when he says, oh, it's red penny night. Like we all feel that because we're like, yeah, we all want red penny night too. Like we get, we get this, this insult here. but like you started tying people's wives we're like dude if I was him like I'd stand up and fuck him up right now right you know somebody I forget who somebody did do that they got up in the press conference and because the dude was talking about his wife or something

and he got up and was it Porriet maybe or Jamie Stevens or so I can't remember who it was I can't remember who it was yeah but yeah you know yeah good those are the types of things that you know just it's just it's useless it doesn't you know

it's not creating any real drama for the common people. It, to me, it's like, it's low-hanging fruit, and it's just like when you, when you can't creatively dig it a guy and that's the route you have to go, then you've run out of material. Like, you know, like, and listen, I understand, like, a big part of this came down to Ian Gary, you know, when he was going to fight Jeff Neal, he had the mugshot that Jeff Neal had from jail when he got arrested. He put that on a t-shirt and I know that rubbed Jeff Neal the wrong way.

I'm not saying he's right or wrong. Let me be clear about that. I'm not saying what Ian Gary did was right or wrong. But that was still Jeff Neal. He didn't have Jeff Neal's wife's picture on his t-shirt. It was Jeff Neal. Now, when he went after Neil Magny, it was all pretty much, you know, fun in games. And Neil Magne, I love Neil.

You know we love Neil. I love Neil. I would consider Neil just a great dude. Neil made the mistake of trying to go word for word with Ian Gary. And he said something dumb at a press conference. when he said, I'll beat you, you know, I know what a beating looks like. I got two kids or whatever it was, whatever, I'm paraphrasing. That sounds horrible.

You should, like, he tried to trash talk. Neil Magny should not try to trash talk. I think we can all agree on that. And then Ian just jabbed him for it. And he kept jabbing him for it. And again, it's something Neil said. Neil should, I don't think, I don't believe Neil Magny is beating his children, but he made it, he tried to be funny and tried to be like a trash talker.

and it just backfired spectacularly on him. And so Ian found a nail and he just kept hammering on him for the rest of the time they were fighting. And again, I'm not justifying that, but I'm saying like that's just turning Neil's own words against him. He didn't say, hey, your wife is blah, blah, blah, or your kids are shitty. Or he didn't go that route.

And listen, I'm not saying what Sean Strickland should or shouldn't say. I don't care. Like, I'm not going to police anyone's speech. Again, I'm not trying to cancel Sean Strickland. I get a fuck what he says. but I just think like when it comes that kind of stuff like there's just I'm not saying like it has to be a hard line

in the sand but like I don't I don't think she said anything about him like I don't think she made public that Sean Strickland's a bad guy or you know what I mean like he just went after her unabated you know what I mean and like that to me just if I remember listen I listened to Sean Strickland's little rant

and I don't remember word for word or anything but if I remember right he was kind of he was going to Ian Gary right he was just saying like that's very beta of you just saying like you know you're kind of a beta male bro like you know you're in a fucked up situation if I remember correctly he didn't really attack his wife or anything I mean he did but then he went later and like you know he basically said it was like you know it was like a sexual predator and things like that like tweets he had more recently and I'm just like I don't know I just it's not my place to place judge when anyone's relationship one way or the

other I don't know his wife at all like I have no idea who she is she followed me on Instagram followed her back on Instagram. Don't know her at all. I know I've talked to Ian. I had a great interview with Ian a few months ago. Seemed like a good dude. He says some dumb things. But like, and again,

like if you want to dig on Ian Gary, why don't we dig on, like, if you're going to dig on Ian Gary, let's talk about like all the gyms he keeps leaving and switching out of. And apparently like doesn't work out going to Leon Edwards gym. And he was a kill clip. Now he's not there. Now he's down in Brazil.

That, if you want to dig on that, like how maybe he's a bad teammate or whatever, then go for it. But I just, I don't know, man. I just don't really see the, wife stuff. I just don't really get into that. I just, it's like, you know,

it just doesn't appeal to me. To me again, it's like, it's like low-hanging fruit, and it's just not really funny or interesting. You know, it's just like, last night during the BKFC card, Eddie Alvarez's wife is notoriously loud when he fights, and one of the other fighters from BKFC was in the press conference,

and he's like, so I was near your wife and she was yelling, let me just be honest with you, your wife scares the shit out of me. I thought it was hilarious. You know what I mean? Like, that's like, you know,

but you don't insult his wife. Like, she's just his wife. Like, I just, I don't know. I just don't see a purpose for it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, it's just low hang fruit. And, um, you know, just stay away from it.

Like you said, just, it's useless. It's not accomplishing anything. And Sean Strickland, he's just a fucking nut job too. though like and he knows it you know what I'm saying like he's he's a crazy son of a bitch like he doesn't give a fuck and he's he's one of those guys that were probably I in my opinion if he had like a

PR person like he'd probably be like 10 times more famous because you know like when he's tweeting or doing these videos like I don't think he puts a single second of thought into it or like you know how could this you know have the most powerful impact or anything you know how could to say this the right way or get across the right way or anything. I mean, I think he literally is just like a thought comes into his mind. He's like, let's fucking go. Yeah. And we talk about like funny and interesting.

You know, if you go back to like most of this trash talk stuff, if I'm calling it outright, they're basically pulling from the WWE, right? Like this is sort of the basic premise of it where it kind of started. Right. If we're all just fighters and we're all just war. Warriors and martial artists, like we're not really trash talkers. Like we say, we're going to fuck you up, right? Like most of us kind of regular everyday, I don't know, how most of us warriors are, right?

Like that's not really what's on our mind. But then they realize that, you know, this drama is what is going to create a lot more attention to the fight. So they pull from WWE. I've never once heard a WWE person attack somebody's wife. Now, they probably do. I don't know. I don't really watch it that much. When they do, and I'll say this because obviously I know a lot about the pro wrestling industry,

when they do, it's because the wife is in on it. Like, they know that it's coming. Like, they're like, it's part of the skit. You know, and they go after somebody's wife, it's because, like, the wife will be sitting in the front row and they'll say something. Everyone ooze and Oz, but it's part of the plan. Like, they're not, the guy who he's talking to knows that it's going to happen.

And like, okay, here's what we're going to go with this and that kind of stuff. They're not just unabashedly just ripping someone's wife. for no reason, you know, because it's all part of the skit. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And like I said, dude, Sean Strickland is wild and insane as he is. He actually does say some funny stuff. We did our best of 20, 22 last year on MMA fighting. I said, Sean Strickland had the best trash talk when he had that interaction with Israel Adasanya at the press conference. He says, no guy that jerks off to cartoons is going to beat me. And I thought it was hilarious. Like, it was a hilarious line because everyone knows Adasanya loves anime and he loves, you know,

he loves Japanese anime. It was hilarious. It was a great line. I love the best line. That was the best line, best trash talk line of the year with that one. That feels like a hard job. Like you got to get through all the trash talk lines of the year and pull out the best one. That was the one though. He's like, no one, no one who jerks off to cartoons is going to beat me. And I was like, that's pretty, that's pretty slick. Like, that's a good, that's a good line to turn about even, even on Asa Sanya that

moment seemed a little flustered when he's just like, oh, shit. So it's good. Like, you know, Strickland's got, just Shickland's dead. We had those moments, man. He can be a funny. He's a lunatic. but he's a funny dude at times. Yeah, he's just off the cuff.

I mean, everything he says, I really don't think anything's planned with him. I think it's straight off the cuff, which is why we love him, right? Again, you might disagree with half of the things, 90% of the things he says, he might turn some people off. But at the same time, you kind of got to love him, right?

He's a fucking blue-collar guy who came into the sport and grinded his way, to the top the hard way, got a title shot the hard way, ended up taking, you know, fight against one of the baddest, most polished dudes in history, wins the fight. And now he's enjoying life and saying whatever the fuck he wants, whatever the fuck he wants, right? He'd be kicked out of the NFL.

He'd be kicked out of MLB. They wouldn't let him do this. But you know he's that guy that he would get himself kicked out of any other job in the world because that's who he is. I think it's very pure and authentic, and I think that's what we like about him. He's genuine. He's genuine, for better or worse.

Like, when Colby Covington says this stuff he says, we've all known at some point he's playing a character. Now, maybe he's become that character over time, but we knew at the beginning, like he was a kid, when you just suddenly become that dude, just like Chil Sondon did it. Chil Sondon used to be the quietest dude ever. Like, he never really said anything.

I interviewed Chale dozens of times where it was just a normal, interview and then one day he just flipped the switch and said if I go after Anderson Silva and call him all these names and say all this crazy stuff about him I'm going to get more attention and then now Chelsanan is one of the most prolific talkers

and biggest stars the sports ever produced he created a character created a persona Colby Covington did the same thing I think that's just who Sean Strickland is then Sean Strickland if he wasn't a fighter if he was just digging ditches in Vegas for a living he'd still be saying this shit on the internet because that's just who Sean Strickland is exactly who he is is. And, you know, with

Chal Sautin, I think that that's actually who he was. I think he was suppressing that. He might have been. Yeah, he may have been. He may have been. That's the feeling I get from him is he was actually suppressing who he actually was. And then he said, you know, I'm just going to be myself.

And because if I remember, right, wasn't he like a politician for a while or something to? Or was he in politics? Yeah, he tried to do politics for a little while, yeah. Oh, he tried to do it. It didn't go well for him. Didn't work. Didn't work out for him. No. Didn't work out. He had a felon of conviction at one point and for that whole, uh, real estate thing years ago. So yeah, I think that's, you know, what's was it? And Tito tried politics. I don't know. Yeah. Titos. Titos went way worse. Tito. When you, when you get drummed out, when you get voted in and then just drummed out of the city council is not a good sign for you. Uh, it's just the fucking city council, bro. I don't. Yeah. I was just, I mean, I was just, I mean, who knows? Like, I could only imagine what those meetings were like

with Tito Ortiz around things, but yeah, and again, I'm not even false people for creating characters. Like, if it gets you attention, good for you, but I'm saying Sean Strickland is a character. This is who Sean Strickland is. Love him or hate him, and as you said, I agree with about 10% of what that guy says. But I know

it's just genuinely Sean Strickland. Like, he is that dude. Just like when you see the video of him confronting some guy who he thought was breaking into his car, ended up being a dude running from the cops, and he goes out there with his handgun and holds him a gun so the cops get there to arrest him. That's Sean Strickland.

Sean Strickland would be doing that exact same thing if he was working construction as he is the UFC middleweight champion of the world. Yeah, he was waiting for that day for years. He was so, like, his eyes lit up when that shit happened. Support for this show comes from Figma. Figma is the collaborative design platform where teams come together to turn ideas into the world's best digital apps,

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Saturday night the other big fight of course was Mike Perry beating Eddie Alvarez. Mike Perry is that dude. Perry, it's so wild to think he was always like kind of a, he was a good fighter in the U.S. He wasn't a bad fighter. Just he wasn't like top 10, top five in the world. Barrett knuckle, though, I know we've said it time and time and time again. I'm going to say it again. He was made for bare anduckle, man.

This guy is a fucking savage. And to go out there and stop Eddie Alvarez in the second round because Eddie's orbital is broken. His face has swelled up three times the side of his face. and Mike Perry was pissed off because he wanted five rounds. He's like, I want someone to meet me in the middle and throw down me for five rounds. I was upset that he couldn't go past two rounds. Dude, that dude is a fucking savage. Yeah, it's amazing, man, especially going from Luke Rockhold to Eddie Alvarez,

and beating both them in bare knuckle. Like, yeah, you're exactly right. This guy was literally built for this sport. He was born for this sport. it's amazing how things work out where this sport was just born, what, five years ago or something and Mike Perry was coming up like five years ago and now the roads collide

and now he's the star of BKFC and you know good for him, man. Like he deserves this shit. You know, yeah, he's a fucking killer. You can't even, you can't say it any better. Like he was built for this shit, born for this shit, and he's going to thrive in this shit for a long time. Until, you know, I don't know, if they start bringing in some really, really good talent,

I would love to see some, like, real boxers go into bare knuckle. You know, even if they're like some of the lower level guys, they just know they're never going to be champion in their weight class. Like, all right, we'll try the bare knuckle. Because the one that we have seen was Polly Malinagie. And Polly was a really, really good boxer. You know, never had power. You know, wasn't, you know,

a legendary boxer by any means or anything, but he was a really good boxer. And he got fucked up by fucking Artem Lobov. And that's amazing to me. Like how different the sport is just by taking the gloves off and how much it changes. Because if it's a boxing match, I can't imagine for a second that Lobov would have a chance in hell

to win a single round. Oh, no. it'd be as lopside as you could get in a fight but then you put it you do it bare knuckle you gotta think that it would right yeah but that i would like to see some real boxers come over well we do have they did they announce and i know like he was never like the top guy in the world but austin trout is fighting louis palomino in bare knuckle in february and austin trout it's perfect yeah yeah like he fought obviously has a winner of mcgled though he is he's in his late 30s he's older but i mean listen he's still i mean he was still a ranked guy like he wasn't like he's just

he's his boxing record he's still off wins like he wasn't just you know getting knocked out left and right and then he decided to do bare knuckle like he was off some wins he has a winner of mckel koto fought canelo a few years ago you know i mean does he have a has he fought in bear knuckle already yeah he fought diego sanchise and beat up diego in that one fight yeah yeah okay you're right yeah which is a pretty easy fight for him uh is he in uh perry's weight class uh he He's technically below it because he's fighting lightweight now. He's fighting Luis Palomino, who's the lightweight champions. They're one weight class below Perry.

But, I mean, Palomino's wanted that fight forever. He's won a Perry for a long time. And we all know what kind of guy Luis Palomino is. And if Austin Trow could beat him, I mean, who's to say they couldn't do it? You'd do it a catchweight or something. Do it at 170, something like that? Who knows? But, yeah, like, I, dude, I'm just, I find so much enjoyment watching Mike

Perry enjoy himself doing this. And I've said this on the show before. When Mike Perry was in the UFC, I think maybe I interviewed him like one time. And he was always, he just always seemed so out there and just kind of like a wild dude. And like he was getting in trouble a lot. And, you know, he had a lot of bad press, a lot of bad things going on. He gets to bare a knuckle. I've interviewed him before and after every single fight he's had in BKFC.

And Mike Perry has legitimately become one of my favorite interviews in the sport. Well spoken, smart. Like, he doesn't get nearly enough credit for how smart he is. Like he actually is a super smart guy. And he's just a fucking savage in there, man. Like, I root for that guy to find success, man. Like, he's just, I'm so happy for him. And he's making, you know, millions per fight now, like doing this in bare knuckle.

And he's a star. I mean, I can tell you from social media and a traffic standpoint, like people looking, Armisarokian knocks out Binald Daryush in the UFC. Mike Perry finishes Eddie Alvarez and BKFC. Eddie, Mike Perry's up here in terms of interest, and Armans down here. And I'm not saying that what Armand did isn't amazing. It is. I'm saying people are way into Mike Perry and Barranuckle fighting.

Like they are way, when he fights, people show up and watch. That's fucking amazing, bro. I love hearing that. And not only was he born for this and built for this shit, but he's the perfect face of bare knuckle boxing, too. You've got to give it to him for that, right? He has, whether it's a character, whether it's who it really is. Like, he is the perfect character, perfect personality for this sport.

I mean, he is who you think of when you think of bare knuckle, a bare knuckle boxer, right? Like, everything about him just exudes a bare knuckle boxer, right? And, yeah, it just works out perfect, man. And I know I talked to Dave Feldman, the president of BKFC beforehand. He said something to me. We're talking about PFL buying Beloit. and he said something to me, he said that he doesn't look at UFC or PFL or any of those other organizations as competition because it's not bare knuckle. Like, Bear Knuckles is what he's focused on.

You know, and he's like, the only thing we'll ever compete for is occasionally it might be for fighters. So he becomes a free agent. Maybe I get them. Maybe PFL gets him. Maybe Bellator gets them. But just in the bigger combat sports landscape, it feels like bare knuckle does kind of get lumped in a little bit more with the MMA because they have a lot of prominent M&A fighters over there. Of course, you know, obviously we saw Beck Rowling's fight. Jeremy Stevens fought Jimmy Rivera.

That was fun. A lot of guys come over from there. And they sold 8,000 tickets to the Utah Maverick Center, which is where the UFC held their event recently. 8,000 tickets, tons of interest online, tons of pay-per-views, and they got a legitimate star Mike Perry. I'm just throwing this out there, Matt. I'm going to stir some controversy when I say this.

Don Davis and the PFL want to say, we're going to be the co-leader, and I'm sure you saw what Dana said, just drummed him back into non-existence with his, just, I told you, don't poke the bear man. Dana is not that dude. He will absolutely obliterate you, and he did. If you want to look at the legit number two combat sports organization in the world right now, I think it's BKFC.

When BKFC has big fights, dude, it's huge. Like when he fought Rockhold, when Perry fought Rockhold on that card and Eddie fought Chad Mendez, that was a card everyone wanted to see. Am I wrong? I'm thinking like it's UFC and BKFC, maybe the second biggest, like most interested combat sports league? That's a really great point too,

because it also has staying power. You know, the, the, the PFL Bellator, like maybe they put on one great fight. Maybe they get in Godot to fight somebody and, you know,

everybody gets into. No one's going to get invested in PFL Bellator like they are, UFC. But I could see where like, Bare knuckle boxing, because it's such a different sport, like it's going to have its place there always, right? It has staying power. And like you said, they have a legitimate star right now, which is just going to elevate the chance for more stars, right?

And give maybe guys another option, you know, if they don't want to be a boxer or a UFC fighter. Now they got another option for combat sports, you know, as that money. comes up. And 8,000 tickets is nothing to scoff at. You know, it's not a UFC event by any means, right, where it's like 20,000 easily, you know, like a minimum of like 15,000 for the most fight night cards.

But 8,000 tickets, but I mean, I've been to a lot of really big shows, MMA shows. Like, PFL's probably not selling 8,000. I've been to Bellator shows where, you know, there wasn't 8,000 people there. I've been to shows like that where I'd be shocked there are 2,000 people there

Yeah So Yeah We're like good shows Like really good Really good names on the show But it's not UFC

UFC UFC is such a brand now That like you know You could argue Arm and Saruki And Benildare Ush aren't the biggest names to sport Because they're not

Like they're really not But it was a great card And they broke the record For that arena last night In Texas and Austin Like that's it I know I'm not trying

a hammer on a dead, to beat on a dead horse. We talked about a couple weeks ago with the PFL thing. But like that's where you're talking about. That's why Dana is saying one shitty organization that sells no tickets and nobody watches, bought another shitty organization that sells no tickets that nobody watches. He's like, it's fucking great. I agree. Like, that's what we kept saying.

Like, I hope PFL finds nothing but success. But you can't say you're on the same level or you're going to be on the same levels as the UFC. No one has done that yet. Now, can you find your, the key, which is what BKFC has done, is carving out your own niche, carving out your own section. And what Dave Feldman,

Dave Feldman has said this many times, he said, I'm not going against the UFC. I love what they do. I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to, you know, bite the hand that feeds me.

I'm not trying to go head to head with the UFC. They're the biggest. I'm acknowledging that. I'm just trying to find my own place in the sport. And guess what? BKFC has found that.

When they have these big cards, like when Arden fought Polymo, when Arden fought Polymoly, that was the talk of the town. for that whole two weeks leading up to that. That was all anyone could talk about. Mike Perry fighting Luke Rockhold. Mike Perry fighting Michael Venom Page.

Mike Perry fighting Luke Rockhold. Mike Perry fighting Eddie Alvarez. These are moments that everyone wants to see or at worst. Everyone's like, I got to see the highlights of that fight. I got to see what happened. That's the difference. I would say the hierarchy in combat sports right now is UFC, BKFC, and then probably PFL at that point.

And I don't know. I'm not talking about money and money. revenue and all those kind of things, because we've already said many times over the UFC is the only really profitable organization. But in terms of interest, I would argue BKFC has a larger lion's share of the interest than anybody outside the UFC. Well, I guess the only X factor there would be one championship, but all you hear about is how their numbers are inflated or it's bullshit, which I don't know what the truth of

the matter is in that, you know, with the social media numbers or their revenue or profit numbers. But I would put them as an X factor, right? Particularly because they put on good shows with really good fighters and their moitai. I mean, nobody has taken moitai and done what they have done with it. Nobody's put it in that much of a spotlight. Like there's been people try. No one has done it as well as one has so far. And I think at least the potential wise, I think they have more potential to grow to actually be a co-leader than anyone else does. They have a chance. The problem is they're burning a lot of money.

And from what I hear, it's not, you know, that's a problem in the long run. So we'll see how it turns out. I, again, but give credit we're one champion. You know, when you read Chatri's interviews and, you know, everybody has mixed opinions about Chhatri. And the problem seems to be that, like, yeah, you know, we're going to, it's all going to be better. in 2021 and then 2021.

It's all going to be better in 2022. And, you know, so hopefully, I just hope that he's actually telling the truth. I have no idea if he is. I don't know the guy or anything about him. But I hope that I hope they're able to keep one. I hope that it doesn't go under. I hope it works out. And I hope that, you know, they, it's a complete, because again, like,

you talk about the niche, like it is, it's his own niche product. They have MMA. You know, and it's not going to, they got to know that it's not going to compete with the UFC, or they would only do MMA, but they bring the Maitai and they bring the grappling, and it's an amazing show. Oh, yeah, I mean, and you do the crossover fights, like when they had Fabricio Androge fight Jonathan Haggerty. Like, that was fun. Their MMA champion crossed over to fight their Moytai champion, and Jonathan Hagerie fucked him up. And we saw the levels of Jonathan Hagerie, like, as a world moitai champion.

That's the kind of fights where you're like, oh, damn. Like that's the kind of fight. We were like, oh, geez, I need to pay attention to this Jonathan Haggerty guy. I didn't know him before he just fought the MMA guy. Same thing. You're right. They're carving out their own niche. You know, they're trying to do something a little bit different to separate themselves

from other organizations. I know PFL's tried to do that with the tournament and the season, but. Dave, it's been that, like, we are, that's been tried, right? Yeah. I mean, there are five seasons in. And if you quizzed 100 MMA fans name five PFL champions, not named Kayla Harrison, who have been the PFL champions in the past five years? Who are they?

And I guarantee you 80 people would whiff on who five people are that have been PFL champions because they switch every year. You know, every year it's a different. Yeah, well, even, I mean, just go ask 20 people who Kailard Harrison is, and 19 of them are going to know. The one that does know is because he trains at a gym and he overheard his first. friends talking about it. You know, he's probably never,

I've never even watched the Kayla Harrison fight. And I love Kayla Harrison. I mean, I think what she's doing is amazing. But I've never watched the fight. I just think, again, you're, you got to do something to separate yourself. And like when they did their big promo about the PFL, when they bought Bellator,

they said PFL is home to superstars like Francis and Gano and Jake Paul. Francis and Gano hasn't fought there yet. and Jake Paul may never fight there. Like you're banking on two stars. One guy who's basically openly said, the biggest fight you could promote for him is a mixed rules fight with Deonté Wilder because you have no one for him to fight.

Like there's no heavyweight that's interesting for you to put in there with Francis Ghanu. And then you got Jake Paul, who is a legitimate star. Absolutely he is, but he's never fought MMA before. So you're banking on him being one of your stars.

Even with that, like, you know, again, like the UFC doesn't have to promote, like we have these big, stars right because they have too many of them now of course we know that the biggest stars you know are a few but like like you said that they put on a show uh last weekend with two guys that aren't even considered stars and they're selling out aren't aren't so you know when so even if they were able to put jake paul on a card we're going to watch that one show normal people are going to watch at one show and probably it's not going to get them invested in the pfl they were there for jake paul

people are invested in the ufc yeah right people get invested in bkfc they're not they're not like no one people aren't watching you know again is i think there's a little bit of a dynamic there where like like people will watch for ronda rousey people did or did watch people did watch for connor mcgregor but the 90% of people are watching because it's UFC and it's a big fight. Absolutely. No, you're absolutely right. Like I said, that's again, this whole PFL thing, like I

hope they find nothing but success, but you've got to find your way to carve out a niche and get people interested. It can't just be a promise of Francis Ngano and Jake Paul, your two biggest stars. You've been around for six years now and the two biggest stars of your organization are people you've signed in the last nine months.

That haven't fought in the organization. And one of them, one of them is a star because he fought in the UFC. Like, Francis de Ghanem is a star because he was the UFC heavyweight champion. Right. That's a problem. It's such an uphill battle, man.

It is. It's a tough, tough, tough business to get into, as is, you know, boxing, all combat sports,

tough, business. But you're going up against a fucking monster. Yeah, like the UFC is an absolute fucking monster when you talk about the business. Well,

and that's why I appreciate at what BKFC is doing. Like they're carving out their own niche. They found a guy Mike Perry who was a good mid-level welterweight in the UFC. You know what I mean? Never a huge star. A bit of a draw.

You know, he definitely had a crowd, but never like a huge draw. But then you put him in the fucking bare-knuckle world, and he's like, I'm a savage over here, and he's so much fun to watch. Great personality. And something else, Dave Feldman said last time, I want to mention real quick before we get out of here.

He was talking about, like, building more stars. He said, we're actually going to bring in some former WB wrestlers to help our guys kind of get their personalities out there a little bit more. Because some guys just aren't, you know, they're clammed up about talking about themselves or it's just weird to do interviews and things like that. Like it's a skill, you know what I mean? Like you've learned it. Like everyone learns it, you know, over the years.

I was like, man, that's a great idea. Because some people just aren't built for that. Like they're not saying he's going to suddenly, they're all going to suddenly become Connor McGregor, but like just get them to open up and be honest and be able to speak on a microphone and things like that. I was like, man, what a great business plan that is. Like, that's a great idea. That's what I'm talking about, man.

BKFC's finding their niche and they're carving it out, and they found a place in combat sports. Yeah, and that's a very smart thing. Dude, you know, I was found interesting that the UFC doesn't do that. Like, I know that college athletes get media trained, you know, NFL, MLB, like, they all get media trained. My girlfriend is a former supermodel, and she told me about the media training that she went through, just as being a fucking model. Yeah. You know,

and I'm like, but the UFC doesn't do that. That's very, I've always wondered about that. But they will also tell you, like Sean Shelby's told me straight up, like the UFC doesn't change who you are or try to manipulate who you are.

We magnify who you are. Yeah. I found that very interesting when he told me that, you know, and it's actually very true, right? It absolutely magnifies who you are. I kind of like that too about the way Dana has done things. He's like, he's like, we're not going to train you or teach you how to be. Be yourself.

And you can be whatever the fuck you want to be. You can be a nut job like Sean Strickland or, you know, you can be, uh, you know, whatever you want to be. And you know, you know, you come in and you fight hard and, you know, obviously you're going to get preferential treatment, right? If you're a Colby Covington or, or, um, you know, whoever. But, you know, like, Homestaw, it's not like that, you know, like he's a pretty quiet guy. He's, you know, he'll say some shit, right? But he's a, he's a, But you see some of his interviews, like, you can tell like this dude's never had no media training, right? Like sometimes he won't even barely talk, right?

He's an absolute fucking killer. But he gets to push because he's a killer. So, you know, it's a little bit of like two different business models. But it always surprised me that they never did any media training with the UFC. Yeah. No, you're right. You're absolutely right. But you're absolutely.

You're also, again, the UFC is such a huge organization that they just shine a spotlight on anybody. and it's going to be a big deal. You know what I mean? Like, that's just how big the UFC is. And I appreciate Dana when he says, like, we don't police what people say. We don't tell people what they should say. You know, are there times when I wish certain language wouldn't get used? Like, I really don't need to hear homophobic slurs and things like that.

But, like, I appreciate that Dana's just like, you know, be who you are. Like, Sean Strickland's a fucking nut. Okay, be a nut. Like, that's who you are. Like, you're just genuinely, like we just said earlier, Sean Strickland is a fighter would be the same guy as Sean Strickland. the construction worker. Like, that's just Sean Strickland.

And I appreciate that they're not trying to mold him into some, you know, champion that they can market and put on billboards. Like him or hate him? Love him or hate him. He's Sean fucking Strickland. And I appreciate that, you know. But I also, but I do understand, like, you know, some guys, like, some guy might have, like, deep down inside of a great personality. He just doesn't know how to express himself and having someone help you with that. Just like when I was learning how to do interviews, like learning how to ask questions and ask

them the right way. Like you never ask a, you never asked a closed-ended question where I could just ask you a question and you can just answer with yes or no. I have to ask you open-ended questions to get you to talk. Like, that's an interviewing technique that I learned in college. Pretty simple, but it's true. Like never, never ask a question that could just be answered with a yes or no. Because all you have to say is, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. It's funny because I remember like when I first started in the UFC, like, I wish I had some media training or something, because I like, I remember what, you probably remember interviewing me early on in the UFC. I mean, I had very, very short answers, very quick responses.

And it was basically, you know, you'd say something like, like, you know, how you feel for this fight? I'm feeling great. I'm going to fuck him up. And I was it, you know, you're like, okay, I didn't ask you a closing question. but you basically made it a closed-in-answer. If you remember correctly, the way we first got moving was during your season of the Ultimate Fighter.

You and Mike Dolce were my ultimate fighter correspondents on my old radio show, back on MMA Weekly. So that's how I did. Yeah, that was the first, that was back in the Ultimate Fighter, you and Mike Dolce, where the guy is, Mike's always been like super talking, super chatty.

Matt Brown, not so much. But we got you to open up. We got you to open up over time. Well, you know, that it's yeah it's a it's a great conversation actually because you know I was a shy kid right like I and I wasn't used to being in the spotlight like I didn't have a lot of friends you know I was very much a gym rat and stuck to myself very introverted and even today like it still takes me practice like you I'm imagining like you can probably tell the difference between when I first

started this podcast as to now, like I can speak like longer paragraphs, right? It's funny. The reason I talk about is like, it is an actual skill. So when they talk about bringing in these WWE guys, it's a brilliant move because it is an actual skill. People on the outside probably don't realize like how much of a skill that it actually is. Like me and you sitting here doing this podcast, like this actually takes practice.

You don't just do it good the first time. And that's one of the things I've learned over time. Like that's when I started taking every interview that I could and I would consciously like be trying to practice, you know, having actual like better speaking techniques, not saying, um,

all the time, right, and pausing and saying like all the time. Nothing drives me crazier than hearing people say like all the time. It's like a fucking teenage girl. And if you say, of course, like,

you know, it's a part of verbiage that you can use here and there. but when you hear it all the time, it just drives me up the motherfucking wall. But I probably say fuck too much still. But anyway, I think my point is it's a great idea. And I think it's going to pay dividends for them, to be honest. I agree.

I totally agree. Yeah. I mean, we've been doing podcasts together now, like this show, obviously, this version of our show, but going back to our old show with you, me, our buddy Jeremy Loper and, of course, the legend, Mark Coleman. and we've been doing podcast together for five, six years.

And the rapport we had on day one, we used to step into that radio studio when there was four of us. And the rapport we built from there to where we are now is totally different than when it started. You know what I mean? But like if you did a podcast or if I did a podcast with, like when I have guests hosts on, like I built a good report.

Like when you, a couple times you've been out or not been able to make the show, I've had Alan Joban step in. And I have a great report with Alan because he does radio a lot. Like he does his own radio show. So he's used to having that dynamic. other people I've had in, it turns into just an interview where I'm like trying to probe them to get them to talk because they're not used like a co-like when we're co-hosting a podcast. This isn't me interviewing you.

This is us talking. That's what this is. Like I'm not interviewing Matt Brown. It's a podcast. And so that's a different feel that when you're sitting down and talking about when you fought court McGee or whatever, you know what I mean? So it's different. And that's what I said, the report we have. But I think it's a great idea because I think there are some great personalities out there.

but some guys just don't know how to exude themselves, don't know how to talk about themselves, don't, like, I get weird. When I get interviewed when people have me on their shows, like I still get a little weird when people are asking me questions. Like, it's still kind of weird to me because I'm used to being on the other side of that. Yeah.

But, yeah, I think it's a great idea. I actually, I don't know if I ever told you, I actually did, start in my own podcast. And I'm going to actually do it for real at some point. But I did about three episodes, and it was me leading. And that's why I'm fortunate to have you because you've led for a long time and you know how to do this. And again, I recognize pretty quickly.

I was like, dude, this is a skill that I do not have yet. And it's reasonable to not have that skill. Absolutely. Right. I mean, if, you know, the first day in the gym, you suck. And it's only reasonable for you to suck. And you have to do it, you know, either so many times or for so long that you don't suck. Yeah.

that there's only two ways that you get better or something either more reps or reps for a longer amount of time yeah that those are the only two ways you get better or something i explain this to fighters all the time you know they they get disappointed they're not doing good or whatever and i'm like dude it's it only makes sense that you are not good right now like you have you've only been doing this a year like you're not supposed to be good if you were good that means you're a prodigy that means you're an anomaly. It means you're very special. Like you're on the path that you're supposed to be on. Enjoy it. Absolutely. And I think it's a great idea. I think it's like the little things like that you can do to make your organization better. Build new stars. Great. I just, I love what they're doing

a BKFC man. I can't say enough good things about them. I love their product. The production's great. The whole product is amazing. And it's just cool to see a guy like Mike Perry find a home over there making seven figures to fight him and Eddie Alvarez just beating the hell out of each other. A lot is a blast. It was just a fun night. Like I said, man, great fights. And, you know, I think, I know this is going to be harsh to say. And I'm sure I'm going to get some messages about this offline.

PFL could you learn a thing or two from what BKFC is doing? I'm not saying they should turn into a barrennacle organization. I'm just saying, like, find your niche and separate yourselves because the tournament thing doesn't seem to be doing it and just becoming, just touting yourselves as a promotion to own. that has Francis and Gano and Jake Paul is probably not the way to do it, in my opinion. Well, speaking on that, I mean, the promotion that is doing that right now

is George Mosvado's promotion with the Gamebred Championships. You know, they're doing the bare-knuckle MMMA. And you're speaking on exactly what you're saying right there, they're doing something different. You know, it's MMA, so, you know, in a cage, so it's very similar to UFC. And it'll never be UFC. It just won't.

You're just not going to compete with them. But some people like that concept. You know, I've thought about doing it myself, create my own little niche, which I think I've told you in my idea before, where I want to have a fair fight, no rules other than what's fair, which means no nutshots, no eye gouges,

no fingers, manipulation, no fish hooking, right? You're wearing a cup and mouthpiece, but we're in an open area, maybe like a basketball court, maybe a football field. I don't know. We'll figure, may figure that out when we get there. And no time limit. And it's a fight, period.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm talking you can head butt, you can elbow, you can kick down opponents. You can, you know, all this stuff is fair game because it is a fair fight between two men with, you know, no cage that you can use to take him down or get back up. there's no there's no bullshit not not even a mat it doesn't have to have a mat you have a regular like turf or or grass and it's an actual fair fucking actual fight yeah no i like it i like it i think more people need to take that advice and find your find your place uh and i think that's what you got to just sometimes no no i dig it no i like it that's what i'm said that's worth saying that's all we're just

keep saying the same thing is like find your place and make your place and separate yourself. And I think that's the struggle that every other organization, every other MMA organization has ever tried to compete with the UFC has struggled to do. There are rare moments where organizations have gotten attention, like when Strikeforce for a little while, when they had Gina Carrano and Chris Cyborg and Kimbo and they were doing things like that and they got some attention. They started drawing. They had big drawings on CBS and stuff like that.

just wasn't sustainable over a long period of time. That's the key. You know what I mean? Like right now, you have to do something different. You can't try to make another Big Mac. Yeah. Right.

You're not competing with a fucking Big Mac. You have to do a flame broil burger. Right. You have to do a square burger. You have to be five guys. You have to be five guys where it's like the upgrade from like a really good burger. You know? Yeah.

Don't try to do a fucking Big Mac, buddy. It's not going to work. Yeah. And I think that's what the BFL's doing right now. Like we're making a big. Big Mac. Well, it's not the Big Mac. The EOC's the Big Mac. You're right now, you're jack in the box. Okay. And, you know, Jack in the box is fine. But, you know, jack in the box is not everywhere. We don't have them here in Ohio. So, yeah. I was going to say they're more like Arby's, like, because there's, like, Arby's. Even though it's actually not like Arby's because Arby's is actually the best fucking fast food that there is. But there's never anybody in line, which just makes it taste all the better. too. Yeah, yeah. You gotta be like try to be Taco Bell. Like Taco Bell's always got a line.

Not saying it's good, but it's always got a line. It's cheap. It's good. People enjoy getting it. So there you go. Get that. Yeah, that's what exactly. You got to be Taco Bell. You got to be Chipotle. You know, you got to do something completely different. Don't try to make another motherfucking Big Mac. Like, why am I going to choose your product when I can go to McDonald's and get a Big Mac? Like, why am I going to stop at your little mom and pop shop? Yeah. And then when, you know, when you, you know, team up with the other guys trying to do Big Macs, you know, you're not the co-leader in Big Macs. Like McDonald's, you know, McDonald's has thousands or millions of locations around the world. Like, because you got 20 of them now, you think you're a co-leader.

It's not what it is, buddy. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And like I said, then you got BKFC out there with some fucking spicy wings and like, hey, man, spicy wings. That's something different. I like a spicy way. You know? Yeah, like I like a spicy wing every now and again.

I want some fucking kicking my stuff. That's different. That's not a Big Mac, you know? Like, they're trying something different. Yeah, that's exactly it, man. So, you know, you just get, I love, you know, the more combat sports, the better, though. I just, I want to see some fucking Moy Thai come up, you know? Like, I don't know what, you know, they need a star like a Mike Perry for Moy Thai.

Yeah. Right? Like he just, like you said, just all the stars align, man. And he gets into the BKFC. He's the perfect fit. he's a perfect guy he's winning the fights Muay Thai's never had that guy that had that that um

liven a personality I don't know which is that it fact it's like it's an it factor yeah there's like an it factor to it like where they and I think part of it I'll be honest think part of it is because the highest guys in Muay or foreign you know at least here in America it's hard now there are great American

Muay fighters and there have been trained in America and things like that but I think that's the thing is you got to it's just going to take that one like I think like Jonathan Haggard is a great case now he's British of course but like he's a great case of a guy who speaks well knows the sport he's a savage

and he's gotten some huge wins and huge knockouts like that's the guy you can build around one championship is absolutely build around Jonathan Haggian he's a very well spoken he's a very intelligent guy yeah you know but but he's also with all love to him you know he's not charismatic he's not he's not gonna come out with

one liners like Connor McGregor he's not interested in that either. Like that is, you know, a Muay culture thing where they're very traditional and respectful. And to me, that's probably the biggest hurdle that kickboxing and Muay Thai is always going to have. Kickboxing has a better chance of finding those types of guys. Right. They've had like the Tyron Spongs or Tyrone Spongs. They've had the, you know, Rico Verhoeven is actually.

Bada Hari is a great one. You know, he popularized the sport a lot more because he's a wild man. but then, you know, Rico, who's more of a dry guy, like kind of comes in and beats his ass and doesn't have any problems with it, you know. But I think that's why kickboxing is a better chance of that because there is more outspoken characters. And Dutch people are, you know, there's some nutty people, right? The guys that do the kickboxing. And but they don't really show that like glory, for instance, doesn't really, you know, do anything to show their personalities. It's all about the sport.

The same with more time. It's all about the sport. And the Muay Thai guys are all very respectful. But until you get some of that, I mean, that's what changed the UFC, right? Was the ultimate fighter. When we started, and it wasn't because of the fights on the ultimate fighters, it's because we started to get to know these people and get invested in them as human beings. What is what we talked about when we were discussing the ultimate fighter with your season?

You had some savage knockouts on the ultimate fire, but what does everyone always talk about when they talk to you about the ultimate fighter? It's the dip. Without fail. To this day. Literally at the seminar last weekend. People were, dude,

I remember when you put the lump just you dip and you fucked him up. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. That's reminded me, buddy. That's like the ultimate fighter one with Kostchek being a dick in the house and everyone hating him and leaving the whole fatherless bastard thing. Everyone remembers that whole thing.

Like that's the kind of shit you remember because that's where we all get drawn to that kind of stuff. And so, yeah, you're absolutely right. Like that's the stuff people remember. I mean, realistically, like, I remember Julian Lane. And it didn't do a single thing. I don't think he even fought in the UFC, right? He was only on the show.

Yeah. But I remember his name to this day. He's like, just a big, bro. Yeah. That's what's memorable is these stupid quotes. And we're all victim of it. It's, you know, like, I'm the most martial arts-centric, respectful guy you'll ever meet. But I still remember that shit.

Yeah. you still remember Red Pandy Night, that's what we just said earlier. So, yeah, absolutely. Personality is matter, man. I say it's like the quote in Pulp Fiction, personality goes a long way. Yeah, so don't be afraid to show it. Yeah, I remember K-1, what always separating me with K-1 was when they had the one-night tournaments. Like, I remember, I remember staying up to all hours of the night to watch the old Grand Prix tournament

where you see Jerome Labanner and, you know, all those guys over there fighting, and Peter Arts and Ernesto Hust and all those guys in those one-night Grand Prix. those were a blast and you see literally eight fights in a night or whatever you know this great tournament they separated themselves by doing that they don't do that anymore like that's not the way of the sport anymore you know but that's i that's when i got way into k1 like that's what separated them like you'd see fucking you look at back at those k1 tournaments even though they didn't highlight those guys personalities they had very strong personalities in the in the sense of the way they fought yeah like indy hoog he was you know a crazy kind of the karate guy. You had Ernesto Huss, who was a grandmaster, you know, master leg kick or Ramey, Remy Bonjasky with the flying knees. You know, so you had a glob Fatoso with his Brazilian kick.

You know what I mean? So like these guys had these little intricacies about their technique that stuck out and made them unique in their own little way. I remember when I went to K-1 in Vegas back in 2004, and I saw Rimey Bojanski decapitate Vernon Tiger White. He flew across the ring with a flying kick.

And I thought he killed Vernon White. Vernon White just slumped down in the corner. I was like, did he just kill a man? Did I just watch a murder right in front of me? And, yeah, that was the night Bob Sap fought Kimo in K-1. So, yeah, dude, there was some. I bet that was a fun show there. That was wild, dude.

Kimo absolutely won that fight. They gave Bob Sapp like a four-minute break between rounds. They're like, hold on. Round can't start yet. Hold on. Bob's still getting oxygen over. there and then he came out and it went in the fight but it was like a three minute break between rounds it was like so it's so bad but it was like they wanted bobs have to win they were trying

to book him and mike tyson at the time because they had mike tyson yeah yeah yeah and they and there's like a three minute break between rounds there and was like why is the round not starting and he's like just bobs in the quarter sucking wind and it was so bad what a k-1 thing to do right oh dude it was hilarious. Everyone knew, like, he was absolutely just gassed out of his mind, and Kuma was winning. There was just like, hold on now. We can give him like three extra minutes here to rest. It was so bad.

But he won, Bob Sapp won. Yeah, it was back in the day with Bob Sapp was the thing. So, yeah, find your niche, man. Find your niche. All right. We're going to get out of here. Obviously, next week, this weekend, of course, we got to fight with Chris Gutierrez and Song Ya Dong. And, of course,

my buddy Anthony Smith, taking on Kaliluil Roundtree. That's a really fun fight this week. And then rolling in the next weekend, of course, UFC 296, we're going to have a big breakdown show on that next week. That's going to be the focus of our show next week. Talk about Leon Edwards, Colby Covington, Brandon Roy Val, and Alessandro Pantosia, Ian

Gary, and Vicente Lucca, Shavkat versus Wonderboy, Tony Ferguson, and Patty Pimble. We've got lots to talk about with that next week. So stay tuned for that. Matt, where can people check out and support you what you're doing? I am the immortal Twitter Instagram at the Immortal Coffee. And check all my links

in the bio for the best creatine gummies for Redwood sonnas. You got to get yourself a sauna, Damon. You got to come over and do it with me sometime, bro. I know. I need to do it. Right now is a good time to do it. It's getting cold out. It gets stepping out hot sauna,

step out in the cold air afterwards. It's like Sweden, man. Beautiful. I think Tuesday I'll have my cold plunge. So we'll throw you in there. And, yeah, that's me right there. There you go. All right, folks. We appreciate everyone to tunes in each and every week. obviously on the show.

Make sure you check us on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and of course over on the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com.

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