MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to UFC 316 Fallout, Merab Dvalishvili's Win, Where Does Sean O'Malley Go From Here, Kayla Harrison vs. Amanda Nunes and More

Episode Date: June 10, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to the fallout from UFC 316 including Merab Dvalishvili tapping out Sean O’Malley and where he stands now among the best pound-for-pound fighters in the sport plus Kayla Harrison running roughshod over Julianna Pena and the chances that she does the same thing to Amanda Nunes plus Patchy Mix struggles in his octagon debut and much more. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the Fighter versus the Writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, I know from time to time, we've made some, let's just say, egregious picks on this show where we get things wrong. But I'm happy to say for UFC 316, we were right on the money. We actually hit one right on the money, huh? Right on the money.

Marab Defends and Kayla Harrison smashes. We definitely got those right. Yeah, I guess they weren't the hardest pick, so right? I mean, technically no, but you got to admit, there was a real surge late in the week thinking, like, O'Malley's going to pull it all. Like, I noticed there was like this like sudden thing that like O'Malley was going to turn it around and get it different

and, you know, obviously it didn't work out. I mean, I know you said it was closer and, I mean, he did shut down a lot of takedowns. It just the end didn't work out too well for him. Yeah, I mean, I thought O'Malley personally, I thought he looked better than he did in the first fight. You know, I thought he looked great. You could tell he was well prepared.

Like we didn't see a single thing from O'Malley that didn't look like he was perfectly prepared to fight Marab. Marab is just that much better, right? Can I ask like, and we're going to talk about Amanda Nunes because obviously she's coming back. Well, when Amanda lost to Giuliana Pena, you know, she left American top team. She changed everything. You know, she moved on from her coaches. And, you know, now she's saying it's because she knew the Kayla fight could have. And I don't know if I totally believe that.

way it ended was she left after she lost to Juliana. But we see this all the time. Guys, girls, whoever, they make drastic changes after a bad night at the office, right? You see guys switch teams, switch coaches, whatever. Now, in Sean's case, he didn't do that. He still had Tim Welch in his corner, but, you know, he stopped smoking

weed, he stopped streaming, he got on social media, no colorful hair, all these things. And then, while I agree, he did look better in the second fight, the result was, I guess you could argue worse, because he got tapped out in the third round. So, like, I don't know, like, I'm not saying guys shouldn't make changes, but I always wonder if you make these drastic changes.

Like, isn't, I'm not saying they're not beneficial, but I think sometimes guys overreact. Like, he lost actually a closer fight to Marab the first time they did this time. Yeah, and this was, I think Morab is just that much better. But the Amanda changing camps is, I think, a largely different situation than your, are different type of changes than the type that Sean made. Sean made positive changes, like whether you're going for a fight or whether you're just trying to live a better life, right? like you quit smoking weed, got off the internet,

and just started being more adult, period, I think, right? Like, that's just good for anybody. We should all probably do that. You know, we should all take a page out of his book, and we should all be doing that shit. Now, man, to switching camps, I'm not always a big fan of that. And I'm very hypocritical here

because I was kind of a camp switcher my whole career, you know. But a little different situation. The fact is, you know, you if you win say I've seen a million times like guys will go win like five 10 fights or whatever and then they lose one they switch camps and it's like well statistically like you're doing pretty good you know like you're going to lose um Amanda I'm not sure you know that whole situation I don't know all the details so can't really say but her leaving because she thought about

you know using the reason of Kayla and that doesn't exactly that doesn't sound like the real reason, does it? No, I mean, if she had left after a win and did that because, like, she saw it coming, maybe, but she left after she lost. Like, she lost the Giuliana.

Why would you leave a camp just because Kayla? Because at that point, you're not, I mean, Kayla's not even in the UFC at that point. That seems, yeah, I mean, that's like almost revisionist, right? That's like the hindsight is 2020. She's just like, oh, yeah, that's why I really left. I don't think that's why you really left. But you called it though with Marab and Amali.

You said Amali would fight better. It would be closer. And in a lot of ways it was, he shut down a lot of takedowns. But man, Marab is just such a monster, man. He just keeps coming. I mean, I think weirdly, I don't mean this is like a severe criticism of O'Malley. I think O'Malley did such a good job kind of shutting down the early takedowns and stuff. And it's almost like he forgot to be offensive.

Because if he noticed he didn't throw a ton of strikes, he just kind of shut down the rest of a little bit. I mean, Marab just keeps coming after him. And then to get that choke, you know, get him tapped in the third round, I mean, like, I don't know what the ceiling is for this guy. Like, I really don't. Like, I don't know what the ceiling is for Marab, De Wiles, really. And I have a theory, you know, there was, like in the first fight, for instance, he was a little bit hesitant. I wouldn't say hesitant, but, like, took his time a lot more in the first fight, right? Like, he didn't know who Sean was, right?

And Sean's a tall guy. You know, he's a precision striker. So it made sense from Marb to do that. It felt to me like Marab was just comfortable with him now. And he was like, you know, you can't beat me no matter what you do. So I'm just going to let it all hang out and be myself. And that's what it felt like to me. Like it was just a continuation of the first fight because Rob did start picking it up later in the rounds in the first fight.

And it felt like just a continuation and like as if that was just bound to happen. And that's kind of where I said, I think Mara was just that much better. And yeah, how high is this ceiling? I don't know. I think we're, I think it's pretty damn clear at this point. He is the greatest of all time in the bannam weights. Can he get to the greatest of all time period? I mean, you mentioned it at last show, and I think you made a great point.

He said, you know, he's the greatest bandwede of all time already, but why aren't we talking more about him in the pound for pound list? And you're absolutely right. Like, he should be in that list. And because I think when you look at the hierarchy of division, right now. I would say it's kind of like lightweight is always near the top. We know that it's so deep. I think Walter Wade is near the top right now and I think Bantonweight. I think those

are the three best divisions in the sport right now. And when you're ruling over when you're to the point where we're not even sure who you can fight because you've already cleared out so many guys, that's a good sign that you're doing something right. Like Marab is already beating Jan. He's already beaten O'Malley twice. Like he already beat Umar.

Like he's going to probably end up fighting Corey Sanhagan and I'm fine with that by the way. I like Corey very much. I think it's fun fight. But if you're asking me right now, like just off top of my head, like, who am I going to pick to win that fight? Well, I'm going to pick Marab de Walshvili. And I don't know what the odds

are going to be, but I'd imagine he's probably going to be like a three or four to one favorite. And that's not a knock on Corey. That's a credit to Marab. So it's like, who can challenge this guy? Like, so far like Marab, I mean, yeah, Umar won a couple early rounds, but then he just faded and Marab completely took over. So

I don't know, man. Like greatest of all time, yes. Best band to wait for sure pound for pound i mean you know i'm not saying i'm not going to put him over islam yet because you know islam's been a little longer established you know whatever but he's got to be knocking on that door yeah how much more established is is Islam really though i mean he had what uh two title defenses four four title four title yeah yeah not a very good memory here but yeah i would be i think i would have to look at like the details that like how many former champions has Islam beat versus Marab and how many

you know future Hall of Famers and you know like Jose Auto you know Marab beat him you know I guess the big knock that's always going to be on Marab when we start talking about pound for pound we start talking about greatest of all time like he's got losses right he came in I think he lost his what first two maybe three fights in the UFC yeah two two of his first four I think it was no one was pretty controversial. I think it was the Ricky Simone fight where he got, they called it a guillotine choke and he never tapped and it was

pretty controversial. But the other way, yeah. So I mean yeah, but he does. I mean, like it or not, he has a couple loss on his record. Yeah, and I feel like that's going to be the real the real sticking point for him, you know, when they start talking about greatest of all time or

I mean, definitely the greatest ban on weight. I mean, you just can't, I think that's hard to deny at this point. It's hard to make an argument against a pound for a pound. and for greatest of all time. I mean, that's what I think he's starting to knock on the door of is those two things. And I mean, he's certainly top five pound for pound, right? There's no question about that.

But now it's like, you know, when you talk about the grace of all time, that's where I'm thinking like he's headed, right? And that's why I keep talking about it. I think he's headed towards the greatest of all time at some point. He's got a long way to go, though. But the knock is always going to be those losses. They're like, well, John Jones went undefeated. And it's like, well, you know, look at the competition.

Right and don't be wrong John beat especially early in his career. He beat some absolute killers But I feel like his competition has faded off throughout Almost throughout his whole career like it's kind of went lesser and lesser I mean and to his credit I mean he cleared out all the real challengers so You can't take nothing away from him but like what he's done a heavy weight is practically I wouldn't say meaningless But it doesn't carry a whole lot of meaning in my opinion So I just I think Marab has that high of a ceiling is why I'm saying it.

When you start looking at Marab's resume, he's now got O'Malley twice. He has Peter Yan on there. He has Umar on there. He has Suhudo on another former champion. I mean, you're absolutely right. When you talk about champions and credentials, like, he's got a pretty good list already. Like, it's kind of crazy. Like, Sehudo and Jan were before he was even a champion.

He took both those guys out. So, yeah, I mean, I don't think there's a debate. Listen, I like Dominant Cruz. I do. I think he was a very good fighter in his day. But Dominic came along at a time when a lot of flywates were masquerading his bantan weights. You know, he beat Demetius Johnson. He beat Joseph Benavides.

Good wins, they're both flywates. Let's be honest. They were never true bantam weights. They were flywades who didn't have a division. As soon as flyweight opened, they went right to flyweight. I think Demetius Johnson is even small for a flyweight. He's a tiny little guy. Yeah, he is.

So is Joseph Benevarez. He's a small guy, too. So like I don't want to dis I don't want to I hate tearing down one guy to build up another But I'm just saying like when you look at Cruz's resume he does have a lot of wins over guy He beat I'm a McCall who is clearly a flyweight Marab doesn't have that Maraub has Aldo yon umar Sehudo Umali twice like to me that debate's over he's the greatest band to weight of all time

And now now we're just arguing about like where does he rank pound for pound And to your point like if he keeps going on this this run and doesn't lose, where does he end up in the greatest of all time debate? Because I think Bantonweight's great right now. And I think Corey Sanhagan is a really interesting fight. I know Sehudo came out today and said he thinks Sanhagan wins that fight. Everyone's got to have like the controversial day after take. I don't know if I call it controversial, but everyone likes that to have a hot take.

I like you, will not be the bigger fan of the person and fighter that is Corey Sanhagan, but I think he's got an uphill battle going against a guy like Marab. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. how you beat the guy at this point, you know, the way he's fighting right now. And I love that he likes staying active. And, I mean, you can tell, like, he's always training. You know, he's just a fighter's fighter through and through, right?

He's not out there talking trash. He's not trying to, you know, get famous off social media or anything. I know he does some funny social media stuff. But, you know, he's just a fighter's fighter, man. I don't know how you could not love the guy and how you can not cheer for him. But I'd say, you know, about the same of Corey Sandhagen. I mean, he's one of the greatest human beings I've ever met. You know, I was around him back in Denver,

team elevation and just a great person all around, man, just an amazing person. But like you said, he just has an uphill battle, man. I don't know, like, what do you do to Marab? You know, I mean, you got to catch him on the way in, you know, or you got to be able to wrestle with them. Yeah. You know, those are like your two real options.

I mean, you know, you could try to submit them off your back or something, but, you know, we know how that game is. today. That's a tough one. Yeah. And I know he said before the fight, you mentioned, like you said, Sean O'Malley can still be a star, a loss doesn't kill that. It just kind of determines his ceiling, right? Like, his ceiling is kind of

capped right now. He can't be champion as long as Marab's champion. They're not going to do a third one, especially considering he got tapped in this one. He didn't go five rounds. It got to tell you, it went from bad to worse in terms of how O'Malley's fight ended. Like, he had that last where he's like, oh, I actually won. You didn't win, but okay. And then this one, he got tapped

out. Like, there was just no coming, I mean, And, you know, it's hard to come back from that. But I agree, like, the ceiling. But O'Malley's in a tough spot because, like, that's why I never liked this automatic rematch in the first place, because now you've taken your biggest star. There's no doubt about that. Sean O'Malley is the biggest star at Bantamte.

And you're relegating him to being a contender who kind of lives in no-man's land as long as Moravis champion because, you know, you can have him fight Umar, you can have him fight, Sanhagan. You can have him fight Mario Batiste, to whoever you want to have him fight. it's not going to be getting back to a title anytime soon as long as Marab's there. So O'Malley's going to have to kind of figure out where he fits right now. Yeah, I'm not sure what you do with that Malley, right?

You put him up against a up-and-coming guy like Batista, who also had a great performance. I mean, I don't know how many people will pick that win. But, you know, and risk, you know, guys coming up losing to a guy like Sean O'Malley. But I feel like we've seen this story so many times. And, like, you know, when they're in the position that Sean O'Mallie, he's in. I'm not saying that he can't come back, that he can't still have a great run, do all these great things. But I feel like we've seen so many times where guys end up in this position. And it just starts, it's like the beginning, it's like the lead domino that just

starts going downhill. And, you know, I hope the best for him. I hope that's not the case. But I feel like we've seen this before. Well, and I think the difference, like when you look at a guy like Max Holloway, who had a tough run against Volcanowski, right? But I think at that point, like Holloway was so established. Like, he had already beaten Jose Aldo twice. He was a defending champion multiple times. Very well-liked, very beloved guy. Like, when he lost to Volcanowski three times, I'm sure, you know, I know it sucked.

I know he wouldn't ever celebrate those losses. But Max was already like an established entity. We were still in a lot of ways trying to figure out who Sean O'Malley was. Because if there was one criticism of Sean, it's his rise to the top. He didn't really face the killers of the killers. Like, he didn't go through Suhudo. He didn't go through Aldo. He didn't go through guys like Marab did.

He had that one fight with Yan, which was a very close, maybe controversial. I don't know if you want to call it controversial. I call it controversial. Very close fight. That's his one. And then he goes out there and has the win over Al Jamein, which I still, I'm not negating the win. It was a good win. But, you know, I still hated the UFC rushed Aljo back in there four months after he fought

Zoodo. I never liked that. But he had that win. He beat up Chito Vera. Okay, good win there. Cheeto is Cheeto. And then he gets beat. by Brad twice. So I don't like I don't know that we really figured out who O'Malley was and now

he's kind of in no man's land. Like he's not going to get near that title again. So are you going to feed him to an Umar? And what happens when Umar goes out there and wrecks him? Like then O'Malley's like, you know, on a three fight losing streak and even deeper or like you said, you put him in there with a prospect and he beats the prospect but he's still in no man's land. It's kind of a weird thing. Yeah, it's a little bit of a weird situation. But you know, the way I see is like this is the UFC and if you want to fight the lions, you guys. You guys. got to fight the lions you know if you want if you don't want to fight the best in the world you need to go somewhere else and you know i say put him up against tomorrow next right the two guys

that lost to marab you know and i don't know how um i don't know how true it is about him not getting to a another title shot you know he's just got a longer road to that than some other guys right i think he's got to beat what probably three or four up-and-coming guys you know and show that look i'm the only guy they can give him a fight um he's going to have to show some improvements and prove that he can give him another fight. So, yeah, that's definitely like a long road for him, but I'm not going to say that that's not possible either, you know? Yeah, and based on the, and I know you like Corey very much,

I want to be clear about that, I like Corey very much as well, but if you're just looking at the landscape and not playing the, it could happen card, right? Like, you know, anything can happen, I mean, you know, but based on the current landscape of Bantamate, outside of an upset, and I mean every fight, I guess technically would be an upset, but I don't know who beats Marab right now. Like unless Marab just has an off night at the office or someone catches him, as you said,

like that can happen to anybody. And Corey could do that. Absolutely. Corey's got the striking acumen and the power to absolutely do that. But I'm saying like if you're asking me, like, put your money down on who's going to win between all the guys of Bantuwait and Marab to Alis. I'm going to pick Marab. Like, I don't see anyone right now that could be him at Bantway.

Yeah. Honestly, he's one of those guys. I think he could beat like two people in one night. Like I think you could put two contenders up against him because like he does not get tired. The guy is the machine is the perfect nickname for him. The dude does not stop going. I feel like you could actually put two guys. He could have fought another guy after Sean the other day.

You know, like just I think it'd be cool. I'm sure. I mean, that's wild and it's not going to happen. But like you could actually put like two guys back to back and he'd beat him both. I mean, I don't, I'm with you. Like I don't know how you beat him. him at this point.

Stylistically, Umar still probably has the best style to beat Marab. And we've seen what happened the first time. Maybe he'll get better the second time, right? Because, you know, I do think there will be a second time. You know, but we'll see. I mean, he's got, you know, he said there's still a bunch of killers, you know, and he's got to win some fights to get back also.

So, you know, what a wild situation. This division has become Marab just ripped through everybody. and you know I think you know this day and age you know the chances of him moving up is probably higher than him going on you know beating another five guys yeah we'll see what happens

you called it when it came to the women's band-to-way title fight Giuliana Pena went out or excuse me Kayla Harrison went out and tore through Giuliana Pena Kimora's second round taps her out very dominant performance from Kayla not surprised I mean I picked Julian I picked, I don't like it.

I picked Kayla to win. I picked her to win dominantly. I said, I said TKO versus submission, but either way, same result. Anything surprise you there? I know you kind of saw that one coming. Yeah, nothing surprising other than it.

She got through one round, I guess, you know. But, I mean, that's, and a lot of people, I got a lot of hate on Twitter about that, right, where people are saying, I'm, like, knocking Giuliano. I'm not really knocking her as much as, like, there's just Kayla Harrison is like a, she's actually like a legit fighter. I mean, she's a savage and she's an actual world-class athlete.

So, you know, just so many of these other girls aren't, you know, they're just not. That's all there is to it. I don't want to, and not do you need me to agree with you, but I mean, I've had to, I mean, I had this knock on Giuliana going into when she fought Raquel Pennington. I said, you know, I'll say, because at that point, Amanda was still retired. And I said, Julianne doesn't have a win of her single fighter on the current UFC roster. How can you not, like, critique that a little bit, like her biggest wins or, you know, know, Sarah McMahon who's gone, and Katzen Gano, who's gone, and Julia, Jessica I, who's gone.

Like, where her wins, quality wins over current UFC fighters, she had none. And Kayla had that line last week, you know, you've lost more fights and I've lost rounds in MMA. Like, you know, so, and then she goes out there, and it does look like a mismatch. And it doesn't look particularly close. And I think this was, I know we always said the UFC doesn't root for anybody, and they don't really care because they'll build a star out anybody, but this was the best scenario for the UFC to have Kayla Harrison, an absolute monster. Now you got Amanda Nunes coming back as a

former champion. I mean, this is the biggest fight for women since Rhonda was around. I'm not going to negate because, Rhonda, listen, Rhonda was a bigger star. If you say otherwise, you're just lying to yourself. Rhonda was a bigger star. But since she's been gone, nothing has come close to that. And this is the biggest fight they can promote right now. But I can't believe, Amanda, you know, is it confirmed that it's happening? I know she's got talked about it and stuff, but nothing's confirmed. And, you know, it seems ridiculous to me. How long has she been out now, like two years?

Three years. Two years? Two years. Two years. So, you're going to come back and fight Kayla? Like, that's insane. I mean, I get it for the money, you know, but, you know, this is one of the, you know, the same with the Sean O'Malley situation. we're talking about the immediate rematch.

Like this is one of the things I think boxing does well. And we know boxing has all kind of corrupt bullshit. I know blah, blah, blah. But one of the things they do well is like if you lose a fight or if you're like a champion that loses, like you get a tune-up fight. Like you don't sit out for a couple years or you don't get immediate rematches very often.

Like you get a tune-up fight. You know, and like you get your confidence back. You get feeling good again. Then, you know, if you come out of retirement or out of sitting for a year or two, like, again, same thing. Like, you get a tune-up fight. You get someone that you should beat. That doesn't mean you're going to beat them because it's a fucking fight. But you get a fight that, you know, you get to warm yourself back up, get used to being back in there again.

Amanda Nunes is not going to do that. She'll come back and fight Kayla. That's not a great situation, in my opinion. And like Kayla's active. She's training. She's going hard. Like Amanda's been like raising a kid and, you know, probably had every intention of retiring and probably ate a bunch of food and sat around and wasn't training hard.

Yeah. Like it, like it or not, like time off like that is not good. I think Amanda's 37 now. So she's not, you know, young. You know, she's not a young woman. I know, I know, like Demetri's Johnson. I like DJ. DJ's a great dude.

But DJ's like, I think, I think Kayla. should retire rather than fight Amanda. It's a terrible fight for her. And I'm like, listen, at her peak, I think yes, it could be, I mean, Amanda was a monster. She should be a terrible fight. Could be a terrible fight for anybody. But I think Kayla had a great chance against Amanda regardless. And then now you're telling me she's getting her off two years of layoff and retirement.

I mean, you know, I'm just saying, like, Kayla's got, Kayla's got better than a decent shot to win this fight. And, yeah, I mean, like, I know, I know. Kayla's manager, Ali Abdel Aziza, he's like, I don't think Amanda is actually coming back, and I don't think she's actually going to fight Kayla. I know everyone's talking about it. And to his point, Dana White said on Saturday that Amanda hasn't gotten back

in the drug testing pool, which, you know, she has to do that before she does anything else. So, I mean, maybe we don't see it. I don't know. I mean, this is the biggest fight that can make Amanda seem serious about it, but, you know, I guess we have to wait until the ink who's driving the contract, you know, for sure. Yeah, you know, we're talking about it. So that's my guess is that's what she wants. but who knows, right?

You know, but, man, like, who's out there, who's even out there to give Kayla a good challenge at this point? I mean, in the current division, I mean, the only person she hasn't fought who is on a bit of a streak is Norma Dumont, and Norma's good, don't get me wrong. Norma's, you know, a really good fighter, but I think it's, you know, Kayla Harrison pretty much runs rough shot over everybody. And I don't, like, Amanda Nunes is the greatest. She is.

She's the greatest of all time. There's no doubt about that. just at like at one point Rhonda Rousey was the greatest and Rhonda's time ran out and she got you know kind of run over her last couple of fights. I'm not saying that Kayla's just going to run over Amanda Nunes, but I'm not just saying like I think everyone is looking at this saying this is Amanda Nunes. This is the greatest of all time. Yes.

But you're not factoring in two years off. Retirement 37 years old. Like there's other things you've got to factor in when you talk about this. And by the way, if they fight and it's not until next year, she can be 38. Like time can get me closer to three or she's out by the time they actually fight. Yeah, because he said she didn't even in the drug testing pool. Yeah. And the biggest problem I think Kayla's going to run into is like, you know, Amanda kind of came at the right time and dominated the right people.

You know, there was, you know, she had like cyborg and, you know, a few others. I don't remember all the people. But she beat like some good fighters. Like I think Kayla's biggest problem is going to be finding people to fight. right like again I don't know who she's going to fight like Norma Dumont you know and like they're not going to be saying oh you're the greatest

because you just beat Juliana Pena and Norma Dumont yeah and I I give them credit because I mean I think the UFC knows like Amanda's the biggest fight they could do and by probably the only fight that really makes sense but I'm kind of the opposite of DJ

DJ is like retire now don't fight Amanda Nunes I'm kind of like the other side where I'm like maybe Amanda should just stay retired like you coasted into the sunset as champion the greatest of all time, like it or not, and I say this all the time people talk to me about Anderson Silva. Like, Anderson is one of the greatest fighters of all time.

But you can't just negate when a guy continues to go on his career and loses and has some ugly losses in there. You can't just act like it didn't happen. I'm not saying it ruins his legacy. But when you're talking about the greatest, you talk about, like, you know, Khab and John Jones and George St. Pierre, guys like that. That's why, like, everyone's like, oh, Fador, Fader.

I'm like, yes, Fador was amazing. And his peak, he was the best heavyweight in the sport. But you can't just forget that he continued to fight too long and lost to, got knocked out by Ryan Bayer twice, got knocked out by this guy. Fights, he probably shouldn't have been taken, but he took him. So like, does Amanda really want to come back and potentially get tossed and submitted or knocked out by Kayla Harrison? Like, is that really what she wants for her legacy?

Because I think there's a real chance that happens. Yeah, I mean, you got to think if she's coming back, it's probably for the money, right? is not because she wants to come back and fight Kayla Harrison. I don't think. I don't know Amanda at all. I don't want to make suggestions, but it doesn't make any sense for her to come back after two years and go straight to fighting Kayla Harrison.

So, you know, for all intents of purposes, you have to assume she's come back for the money. And, you know, what's the word on the street's going to be? You know, Kayla goes in and beats Amanda, regardless of whether she came after two years, you know, whatever the situation is, is going to be like, okay, she just passed the torch. Kayla's the new grate.

Yeah, absolutely. And there are exceptions, of course. George St. Pierre sat out for almost four years and came back and beat Michael Bisping. It can be done. But as you said, you're not coming back and just fighting anybody. You're coming back and fighting Kayla Harrison. And Kayla Harrison's on a run right now. I mean, she mauled Giuliana Payne.

Like, that was not a close fight. Like she took her down. And like the GSP is a great example, right? But, you know, that was a good matchup for GSP too. right and you know not to knock on bisping by any means but you know matchup wise like it was just a good matchup for gsp um kaila harrison is not a good matchup for amanda nunes i don't think no i don't either for anybody yeah for anybody i agree i agree and kind of like what you call it with the juliana paina fight like you didn't think it was particularly close fight i'm not saying that Amanda wouldn't

make a great fight she is a legend but um like i said when you factor in all the other little things like the time off, the retirement, 38, 37 years old. Kayla's on a run, very active. I mean, I think the only thing you can hope for in Kayla's case is if you're Amanda Nunes is, man, you really hope she has a really, really bad weight cut and doesn't come

in, you know, fully prepare, but that's kind of like the Marab thing. It's like, can you catch him? Because you're probably not going to beat him otherwise. You're not going to out-restle, you're not going to out-cardial him. You're not going to just beat him over five rounds. You better hope you can catch him. With Amanda, it's like you better hope Kayla has a really terrible weight cut, and maybe you get her.

Yeah, yeah. And that's a likely scenario, too, because Kayla, I don't know how long she can keep cutting this weight. Like, I'm so surprised she's already done it twice or however many times she's done it. Man, like what she just looks horrible when she weighs in. And I mean, she's a big girl, too. Like, she just not need to be cut in this much weight. That's, you know, along with her not finding fights, that's got to be one of the biggest constraints that she's going to be dealing with is how many times is she going to be able to cut this weight? You know, I'm going to say this, and maybe this is going to be a controversial take, and maybe you'll disagree with me, but I feel like you're going to agree with me. DJ was saying retirement. I mean, if Kayla goes out and beats Amanda Nunes and taps her out, knocks her out, beats her, and defends her title, I don't know that I'm not. Kayla Harris isn't saying, I'm done. I walk away as champion, and then the UFC just shuts down the band-of-way division.

Because, like, if you beat Amanda Nunes, after you've already beaten Giuliana Pena, become UFC champion, you're now 22 and 1 or whatever a record would be, like, are you really going to add more to your legacy by beating Raquel Pennington, by beating Norma Dumont, by beating, I don't know who the hell else is out there that would actually do it? Like, you know what I mean? Like, if you beat Amanda Nunes,

what else do you really need at that point to your career? Yeah, I agree. I'm actually really surprised that D.J. would say that because it's like, if you're Kayla Harrison and you want to retire, do the fight with Nunes. If you can get it, like go for it and take the risk like put your your legacy on the line with that fight right and if you win it's golden and you're the great and or a grade or maybe the greatest whatever i don't know and then if you lose all right

you lost you know you went for it you tried like i'm really surprised me a dj would say that yeah i just i don't understand this idea that like you know i mean because the reality is i mean there's just not a whole lot of depth in this division and we've said that before i mean unless unless Valentina Shipschenko goes out and beats Jang Waley and decides she wants to go up and fight her bantamate again the options are slim and few and far between at that point like Amanda and Kayla is huge it's a massive fight it's the biggest fight they can promote in women's MMA right now

once you get through that though if you beat Amanda Nunes what else is out there like are you really going to be like man I just beat Amanda Nunes let me go fight no offense but like let me go fight Raquel Pennington is that really going to add to your is that really like outside of just stack in title defenses, is that? You know what else? Because as you said, like Amanda came in

at the perfect time because she was able to beat Rhonda, she was able to be Holly Holmes, she was able to beat Misha Tate, a lot of the big names. They're all gone. Gone. So like, Kayla's options are much more limited. She can beat Amanda and she

can beat Amanda because what else are we really talking about here? Right. Yeah, that's a huge issue for it and you know how motivated is she going to be to fight some of these other girls you know like you know to cut all that weight and get into a hard training camp and then i mean she knows how good she is like she's a fucking stud you know it's like it's like is she really going to get motivated to fight you know just another girl for another title defense and you know hopefully she does

because you never know what's going to happen right a man of nunez figured that out right you just don't know you got to be prepared all the time but you know that's a hard wake up for it man there's no way that you can just look at it and you're like it's pretty rare like I've seen a lot of weight cuts you know and it's pretty rare where I'm you know I kind of step back like I don't like seeing that you know because I've done some terrible weight cuts myself I've seen them but when she does it it just gives me a little cringe like to him

she's like this is not good and she should not be doing this and the fact that she even does it like shows how much of a savage she is I don't put you on the spot right now I know we've already kind of talked about this, but just right now, just in your head, not thinking, not thinking too deeply about it. Who do you think wins, Amanda or Kayla? I'd be Kayla 100%. Yeah, I'm the same. I just, I like Amanda.

I think Amanda's a monster, and I kind of wish this has happened when she was still in her peak, but I don't know that she's in her peak. And by the way, I'm not saying that Kayla only wins because Amanda's not her peak. I'm just saying, like, that adds that question. If she was in her peak, I'd say it's probably a closer fight. I'd probably still pick Kayla, though, because Kayla's a savage. Kayla's a monster. But when you factor in two, almost three years off, retirement, you know, things change, man, 38 years old. I mean, there's a lot of factors working against Amanda in this one.

Yeah, and how old's Kayla? 34. She's 34. Yeah, you know, in Amanda's peak, like I would, it wouldn't be a quick answer, right? I'd be like, well, maybe this, maybe that. But at this point, you know, outside of, you know, Amanda, does have the striking advantage outside of that. I'm just, I don't see any way that she beats Kayla.

I mean, Kayla is on top of her game right now. And he said just in Savage, and she's got a great style to beat someone like Amanda. So, again, I don't see anybody beating Kayla. I don't know who beat her the first time. He said she was like 22 and one. That one fight, she had Larissa Pacheco and PFL and she lost three rounds to two. I mean, it wasn't, I mean, it was a good performance from Lowe's. But you got to remember, that was their third time fight.

you know, Larissa won, don't get me wrong, she definitely won the fight, but I don't care how you're paying it when you're beating a fighter twice and you've got to fight my third time, it's kind of like, all right, here we go again. Like the motivation's a little different. And she's, I mean, she lost three rounds to two. She didn't get blown out. She didn't get blown out.

She got knocked out. So I'm not making excuses. I'm just saying, like, when you've already beaten somebody dominantly twice before and you get him thrown them a third time, it's like, are you as excited? Like, I don't know. I'm not making excuses, but, you know, you can kind of tell. It's like, all right, here. here we go again and, you know, whatever.

But, yeah, that's her one loss. And outside of that, she's been completely dominant. And she already has two wins over Lutz Pacheco, too, one birthday beat her. So, yeah, so. Real quick, before we get out of here, Matt, I know you mentioned Mario Batista. Man, can we please give this guy some flowers for how good he looked on Saturday night and really took a two-patchy mix? And I'm guilty of it.

Matt, you know, I've been banging the patchy-mix drum in here for years. and Mario Batista beat him up, bloodied him up, busted him up. And I know you always say this, and I want to be clear about this. This is not to take away from Mario Batista. I'm being clear. Mario Batista won that fight. Patche Mix didn't just lose the fight. Mario Batista won that fight.

But we've seen this before. And I think we saw it with Patrice and Pitbull just a couple weeks ago. The UFC is a different animal. And I can't help but wonder if the bright, lights didn't, the attention, like, this was something totally new for Patrick because I don't care how many times you found Bellator or PFL. Sorry, Don Davis, it's not UFC. And I don't know.

Did you, did you notice that? Did you, because it did, like, it was a weird performance for Patch. Like, he went for, like, one takedown and, like, there was no head movement. He was, like, stuck in the mud. It was a weird performance. And I don't, I obviously credit to Mario Batiste. I think a lot of that has to go to him. But I also can't help but wonder, like, did the bright lights?

did the UFC, did 19,000 people, did that get to him? You know, I didn't get to watch the fight, so I can't speak too closely on it. But I'll tell you, man, like, I think the bright lights affect everybody to some regard. Some people are better, some people are worse. But I'll tell you what, man. Like, the UFC just has the best fighters in the world.

And I think these few fights, that we talk about where these guys are coming from you know champions from other divisions and everybody thinks they are so good i think it just shows the disparity in the level of competition in the ufc maybe the lights and and the media and all that kind of stuff play a role in it but i think it just shows the disparity man like the the number 15 guy in the ufc could be champion in any other wake any any other promotion that he went to. I mean, it's just a, it's just an extreme,

you know, difference between the UFC and everybody else, man. They have control of this sport of all the best fighters. And I think that's all there is to it. I mean, like you said, we've seen the million times.

And, you know, Ben Asking was an example, right? Where he could have been, you know, a legendary champion that he comes to the UFC. And it's like, he's another one of them. now, right? It's just a the UFC's just a different fucking animal

man, there's bloodthirsty lions in there that just want to eat your soul, man, and it's just a different level of competition. I mean, there are obviously exceptions to the rule Kayla Harrison being a good one, but you can also argue that Kayla came into a division that isn't exactly the deepest in the world. I mean, she didn't

you know, I kind of wish, I mean, it would have never happened because she was literally in the Olympics, but like I wish we could have seen Kayla when Rhonda was around and when Holly was around at her peak and Misha and all you. And the division's different. And that's not her, but it's just like right now, like light heavyweight. Like you mentioned with John Jones. When John Jones was at his peak and he's beating Rampage and Shogun and Michita, at the

end there, the division wasn't as deep. And that's not John's fault. It's just saying like light heavyweight just wasn't as deep. There are exceptions to the rule. You look at what Kayla Harrison is doing right now. But by and large, you look at, you know, Chandler came overhead that one win over Dan Hooker, which looks better now because Dan Hooker's. on a bit of a run.

But then, you know, he's, you know, I mean, he knocked out Tony Ferguson, but I think we all know where Tony's at in his career. Yeah. And you lose to Gagee, you lose to Poria. You know what I mean? So, like, and we saw Will Brooks came over. Will Brooks beat Chandler twice, came over and just, I mean, he had like one win in the O'S and lost like three in a row and got bounced.

Yeah, like, it's a different world, man. Like, I, and I'm listening. Remember even like when the pride guys came over. I mean, I remember everybody was talking. I'm sure of me and you probably talking about pride's going to take over. Like, it's going to be pride UFCL. There were a bunch of normal guys, you know, outside of, you know, Shogun did some good things for a while.

Who else? I don't even, I can't think of anyone else who did anything spectacular. I mean, Shogun lost to Forrest Griffin his first fights. Like, he didn't come back storming the case either. Like, he lost the first fight. But he did become champion eventually. He did. He did.

But, you know, Rampage did some good things. He became champion. But he was kind of, you know, UFC and pride back and forth type of guy anyway. But yeah, it was almost the same thing. I thought, like, dude, the UFC just has the best fighters and bar none. Like what you do outside the UFC just doesn't mean jack shit anymore other than to get you to the UFC. Yeah, it's everybody else is like it or not. everyone else is kind of like the minor league feeding system to get to the U.S.C.

You know? Everybody. Like it or not. It's like, you know, if you like college football, like, I don't know, would the national champion team beat the worst NFL team? They had that debate all the time and everyone's like, no, you would not. Like, I'm, you know, we're in Ohio State country. We live in Ohio State country. I love Ohio State.

They're not going to be an NFL team. Just it would never happen. It's not like, it's just never, ever going to happen. the worst NFL team would still beat the best college football team. There's just a disparity in talent and speed and everything. Yeah. So, yeah. That's it.

Is this anything? NFC's the NFL. It has become that in a lot of ways. Like everyone else is kind of feeding. Because it's funny, when you hear like Aaron Pico, Aaron Pico's a monster. I'm very much looking forward to what Aaron Pico does in the UFC. I think he's got a private future,

but he's still very much in the Pek's career. And you hear him saying, and I talked to Aaron Pico about this when he was battling for his free agency. And he said, if you want to be the best in the world, you've got to be in the UFC. That's all there is to it. And Pica is also, like, coming into his own as he's getting to the UFC. Right. These other guys were talking about, like, Apache or Patricio, like, they were kind of

legends in their own right outside of the UFC. And then they come to the UFC. And, you know, certainly individual style matchups make a difference to who you're fighting and all those different types of things. But, you know, when they come to UFC, it's just a different fucking animal, man. Like they're not used to, you know, that level of competition. Yeah. And we talk about the bright lives and everything.

I mean, those are all things that kind of like, I remember talking to Kayla when she came over and she's like, yeah, I've never like the amount of media you're doing and the amount of attention being paid. And like it or not, these are all factors that can affect you. Like, you know what I mean? You never had to do media day and never had like a room of 100 reporters all like asking focused on you. asking questions. I'm not saying that's going to make you win or lose the fight. I'm saying these are little things that people maybe are not prepared for. You know, getting pulled in 18 different directions. You got embedded to follow you around. Like, there's just so much more being in the UFC versus like, you know, you could be a big dog in a small pond in Bellator or you can be a small

fish or a small, a small, a big fish in a small pond or a big fish. Yeah. You know what I was going for. Yeah. You know, the, um, so like all the, all those things are kind of just those objective things that you can look at right like the media day the attention that you're going to get the amount of interviews that you're doing I think what a lot of people don't recognize

or don't really think about is is the you know like you're when you get in the UFC at least in my situation and I'm sure that others can relate like you suddenly have about 20 more cousins than you had the year before

right now you got people asking but now you're looked at When you walk into a restaurant, people see who you are. They know who you are. Those are the kinds of things that can either get to your head or, you know, or you can handle it, you know, more stoically or more properly, right? But I think a lot of, I think these kind of side issues is probably more of a factor than like doing an extra media day.

You know what I mean? Yeah. But even though the media stuff even also like, look, Like that can get to your head too, right? You're like, oh, yeah, like, they all want to fucking talk to me, you know. And again, when you're talking about these guys that aren't used to that type of stuff, like, it could easily get to your head. Like, you know, I've already done all this shit.

And like, you're just not, you know what I mean? It's just a, I think there's a lot more pieces to it than people would even recognize just on the surface. For all the things you've done and all the things you will do in your gym and you got your unclean slug, making debut in a matter of days in Columbus, Ohio. You're always going to be UFC legend, Matt Brown. And just like Saturday Night, I joked when I text you,

you were at Mark Coleman's Hall of Fame, and I said, Vicente Lucas trying to tie your record for the most finishes, then Kevin Holland put a stop to that. They're like, who has the most finishes in Weldoy history? Matt the Immortal Brown.

Like, you will forever be known as UFC legend, Matt Brown, UFC fighter, Matt Brown. And I'm sure you appreciate that, but I'm saying, like, that's how big the UFC's brand is. Like, no matter what you do, it's always going to be, oh, yeah, UFC fighter, Matt Brown. Like, that's just, that's just the nature of the beast.

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, when you talk about, you know, say Apache Meigs or Patricio or these guys, and, you know, they're going to the gym. Like, believe me, they're looked at differently now simply because they're in the UFC, right? Again, people speak to them differently. Again, I came at a different time when the sport was really growing, right? And but I remember going on the ultimate fighter and my life changed. Like I remember the girlfriend I was with at the time and she even said something to me when she's like when you she said when we walk into restaurants now you're looking around to see if anybody recognized you or you just like you know be an egotistical or whatever and I'm like no it kind of freaks me out because like people do recognize me like people stare at me now you know and and it's a weird thing you know when people start asking you for your autograph or for pictures and

Again, I think a lot of people, like, it's very easy for that to get to their head. I think it can cause a lot of overconfidence or ego, boost the ego a little bit too much. And again, what people forget is like that, that's a, that's not just, you know, when you go to a UFC. Like, that's when you're in the gym, right? These guys are looking at you different. The coaches are talking to you differently. The fucking strength coaches or your nutritionist, whatever. like they see the the fucking dollar signs right they they they they know where where this can lead to

your family's gonna fucking talk to different as I was what I'm saying like it's a it's a holistic thing and I think it you know it's not always I don't think everybody is made for that and especially we got to think of the complexities of you know you've already been a fighter for so long like like Apache mix already you know uh legend kind of in your own right like high level very good and now all of a sudden people are looking at you differently you know I mean now people are talking to you differently now people are treating you differently I think that those little things can play a bigger role than again like you know have an extra media day or

fucking you know the lights are a little brighter at the other little more people at the UFC because we listen look when you get into the octagon but I thought on I fought in gas station parking lots before I fought in fucking I fought in a cage once It was built with like dog kennel fencing You know I had like the bar across the middle

You know And they had that show in a wreck center In the fucking middle of nowhere You know Now I fought for a four wheeler You know like that was my prize if I won And it's like And it's like

It's still the fucking same bro When you get When you fight in the UFC And the lights come on it's still the same. It's all that shit leading up to it and all the shit outside of it that's different. The UFC is, I swear to God,

like when the bell rings and the refs says go, it's the same fucking thing. But you made it something different. I think that's a great point. And we'll see how Patchy Mix reacts from here going out as he continues his script. Same people producing a pit bull. Can they bounce back?

Can they get better? Can they do better? We'll find out in the near future. Matt, I mentioned you got your show this Saturday, unclean slate playing here in Columbus, Ohio. cover band where else uh if you got things going on people can check out i'm hoping you're going to have some recordings and posting some stuff on social media with the show this weekend well we do have a videographer coming hopefully he shows up you know like i was like bro i can't really pay you much

like it's not work we're making money doing this shit but uh we'll see if he shows up whatever uh if he does then yeah we'll have some videos up and hopefully i don't fuck up all the songs you know I'll tell you what like this whole process it's like going into a fight and I mean I'm just playing at a fucking local bar like I'm not even you know going up on a stage or anything you know it's like they don't even have a stage there it's a fucking local bar

but fucking it's like going to a fight like every little detail I'm like fuck like I'm fucking that up I got to get it better it feels very much like without all the nerves of a fight of course and the physical toll but but the mental is like it's actually very similar So it's kind of interesting. And, you know, I'm just, I'm trying not to take it like too serious, you know, because it's really not.

But when you kind of hold yourself to a certain standard, you're like, you want it to be, you know, really good, right? So yeah, so we'll have so fun this weekend. Hopefully we'll see you there. You're coming, right? Yeah, I'm going to stop up and see Unclean Slate do their thing and do a little video take and myself, all that kind of good stuff. So stay tuned for that. And obviously we'll be back next week to get a replay on see how Matt did on the guitar. and we got Kamar Usman and Joaquin Buckley this weekend.

That should be a hell of a good fight. Yeah, I'm excited for that. That's a good match-up. And obviously, make sure you check us out all your favorite podcast, platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and, of course, over the best website in the world. MMAFighting.com. We'll be back next week for another episode of the podcast for Matt Brown. I'm Damon.

We'll see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider. Thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you then. Thank you.