MMA Fighting - Fighter vs Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Wanderlei Silva Suffering Brutal Knockout, UFC 320 Picks and Predictions

Episode Date: September 30, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to Wanderlei Silva suffering a brutal knockout in a post-fight brawl in Brazil and we look ahead at UFC 320 including our picks and predictions for Magomed Ankalaev vs. Alex Pereira 2 and Merab Dvalishvili vs. Cory Sandhagen plus much more. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We'd love to talk, business. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the Fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, we have finally arrived at UFC 320. We've been in the entire month without a pay-per-view, which is kind of odd. That never happens.

But now we get two in the month of October. Of course, this weekend is UFC 320. And in a couple weeks, we get UFC 321 in Abu Dhabi. And I feel like we got like four pay-pviews left this year, and then we're out of the pay-per-view era forever. I can't be the only one's excited about that, right? Like we just have to like turn on CBS or Paramount Plus and no longer have to pay for it. Yeah, no shit or not no longer have to pirate it or whatever.

Yeah, that's a yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. Isn't it is I guess I think I bring this up too often. But like it's odd to me that we are now saying it's odd that we went this long without a pay-per-view. Like it's still to me like waiting three, four months. for the next big fight was still like in my head for some reason. Yeah, no, I mean, I still get flashbacks to that. We had like five events a year or six events a year or whatever.

And like, yeah, it's weird. I remember when we had two or three good ones a year, right? I just tweeted about, I just tweeted the other day. Somebody had posted a highlight clip of Tito Ortiz versus Frank Shamrock, which is like one of my all-time favorite fights. Like back in the day, back in day people would say, like, before the UFC was the UFC, people would say, like, so what do you do or what?

what do you like? And I'm like, oh, I'm a huge MMA fans. I'm like, what's that? And I'd tell them, oh, I know that thing they got banned. I'm like, trust me, it's so much more than that. And I'm like, okay. And I'd show them Tito Ortiz versus Frank Shamrock. Because to me, that was like the epitome of like a fight that had everything.

It was wrestling. It was grappling. It was striking, conditioning. Like, it just showed everything. It was such an incredible fight. And I saw highlighted that on Twitter the other day and I immediately retweeted. I was like, this is the fight I used to show people. And they're like, what is this MMA thing?

This is the one I'd show them. to be like this is MMA. Amazing. Do you remember what your first fight you ever seen was? UFC 2. Oh shit, okay. Like live? I mean, or at least on pay-per-view.

I was a kid, so I should not have been watching it, but I remember because I loved martial arts, I love karate kid and like blood sport. And I had a friend in high school who was like, have you heard of this thing called UFC? And I don't remember how I was young, like very, very young. And I was like, no, what's that? and he showed me like a video of like hoist-gracy.

And I was like, all right. And then like he told his mom we're going to watch some fights to their house. He didn't tell her it costs money. And so he bought the pay-per-view. We watched it at his house. And I remember UFC too. I was for, now I don't remember like, I was too young to really remember the specifics of the event. But I do remember it being the second event.

Now, I didn't stick around to watch every event because my family certainly couldn't afford to pay for it. But my friend's family had no idea what he was doing. And so we got to watch a few at that point. And then I remember, like, UFC 10 was when I really became like a fan. And that's when Mark Coleman fought. That was like Ohio State. No, yeah.

That immediately became like a matter of like Coleman. I mean, I told Coleman this. We did the podcast. I was like he was my favorite fighter growing up. That's amazing. You were way earlier than me. Dude, my first fight was, uh, tank Abbott. But, you know, long after the, they actually had the fight.

and then the first one that I watched live, though, you know, on pay-per-view or whatever, was hoist Gracie and Sakaraba. Oh, wow, that's a good one. Yeah, and it was like a freaking movie, you know, because it's like 90 minutes long. And, you know, at the time, I mean, God, it was so exciting, right? But it was, I tried to watch it again a couple years ago. And I was like, Jesus, this is so fucking boring. Like, they really didn't do anything this whole time. But at the time, I mean, it was literally like watching a movie, especially, you know, with the stigma of Hoyce and the whole Gracie family and, you know, the whole, you know, no time limit.

I mean, how many no time limit matches have they had, you know, in total, like probably 10 or 15, right? I mean, especially that went that long. Like, I don't remember any other fight that went that long. Yeah, that was a good one. That was really, I mean, not good one in a sense of like, you know, it was like the most epic fight. but like 90 minutes and like just like a war of attrition and yeah and I I became like I became a big fan of Sakaraba during that time because like everyone growing up everyone knew the graces like everyone knew the graces and so like here was this Gracie killer he took out all the graces and

I was like ooh I kind of like this guy and I became a Sakaraba fan I know I've told this story on the show before I own like three or four mMA shirts that I've ever owned because like it's my job so I don't necessarily run out and start buying shit but like I have have a Matthew Immortal Brown Affliction shirt that you gave me. I have a W.C. shirt that they gave me like for the final event because as we all know, my mentor, Ryan Bennett,

who sadly passed away, he used to call WC fights. So when they had their final event, they sent me like a WC shirt, which I still have. I have a Fador, nobody beats me shirt that I still own somewhere in the closet somewhere. I do have an affliction Josh Barnett versus Fador shirt

they sent me that never happened. And then I, and then I And then I have a, I have a soccer office shirt from Japan. We used to have a guy who actually lived in Japan and like taught English over there, but covered the pride events. And so I have a little mini pride fighting championships gloved. It's like a keychain. And I have a blue and orange like team soccer raba shirts.

It's all in Japanese, but it does say team Sakarava on it that he bought me in an event and sent it to me. So I have like five MMA shirts and that's it. Nice. Well, that's more than I have. So outside of my own. But, yeah, dude, Sakaraba was such a legend, man. Like, you know, that was, there was a whole stigma, too, of, you know, being in pride. And I think Sakaraba had a lot to do with that, you know, with the stigma because, like,

hoist Gracie going over there or all the Gracie's going over there who were kind of the, not really the face of the UFC, but kind of the face of the USC to people who weren't really gigantic UFC fans, kind of maybe French fans or whatever. But, you know, then they just go over there and get wrecked by Sakaraba. and he's like comical about it and like smoking cigarettes and shit it's like it was so amazing man and you know well speaking of you know what am i uh i remember how how big of a fan i became a vanderlay when he fucking murks saccaraba like bad that was like that was like the most heartbreaking moment for me as a fan growing up because like i became such a fan of saccaraba when he was beating all the

graces when he did the hensoh and all of them i was like man this guy's unbeatable and then van der Leigh just goes in there and absolutely destroys i mean destroys his collarbone was that the way broke his collarbone in that fight i think i mean he just battered him like it wasn't a fight like vanderly just brutalized him i was like oh i was like jesus christ like this is like the exact opposite of what i thought was going to happen so right right like van derley was a savage back in the day man like that dude just had like i his his face-offs are still my all-time favorite. Him doing the Muay and just like staring people down.

Dude, he had the most ferocious stare down ever. He brought so much intensity. I mean, he was just another one of those guys. Like, that was the legend of what pride was in, right? I mean, you had Vanderlai and you had a crow cop, of course, and Faydor, of course. But, you know, the whole shootbox team, like the intensity that they brought, I think that's a large part of where we were all like, dude, These pride guys would kill the fucking UFC guys, right?

That's what we used to say back in the day, right? They're just lucky the pride guys don't come over. And, well, we see how it played out when it did happen. But, you know, it wasn't that bad. I mean, the other thing was kind of maybe 50-50, I guess. Like Shogun ended up being a champion and anybody else. I don't know. Maybe that was it.

No, Gera won a title. No, Gera won an title. Yeah, he did win a title. But it wasn't the domination that we thought, right? and yeah man so but vanderlay that was what made me first a fan of him bro i still remember that and then i think i don't remember if he fought rampage before after that but but i remember when he had the rampage knock out where he threw him through the ropes and i was like dude that's my fucking hero like i want to be this motherfucker and then of course showgun came along later and those

are the guys that got me into fighting and that's the guys i modeled my style after and you know, even throughout throughout my whole career, I think you could see little tinges of it here and there. And I think I tried to be a little bit more refined than they were. But I kind of always kept that back in my head.

Like, but if you just go in there, you're just fucking intimidating enough. You're just mean enough. You're just fucking got the balls and the guts to throw. You can beat some motherfuckers' asses that way. That Vanderley knockout on Rampage has got to be one of my top five favorite fights of all time. Like that whole first route was insane.

Vanderlai was, you know, it was a back and forth war. And then when Vanderlae started hit with the knees and Rampage goes flying through the second rope, knocked out, just one of the most epic finishes of all time. Like he just kneeing the shit out of the Rampage goes forward, falls in the ropes. I mean, that, like, that was just like all-time legend stuff. Like that, like that, like I could see it in my head as we're talking about it. That's how many times I've seen that. Like, I can just literally visualize like Rampage falling through the ropes.

And I can't remember if it was, uh, if it was Stephen Quadron. on commentary boss route but like they just absolutely freaked out and like yeah they do that was one of the craziest knockouts ever and it's got to make because like vanderly beat him a couple times and they did that rematch to the UFC and i was kind of like this isn't this isn't the same like van der leigh was already kind of like you know he wasn't the same vanderley at that point he was off the juice too right a little bit yeah so but yeah not to get too advantage here but you know when speaking of pride we've talked about it before and it was i think still for us at least me and you.

And I said there's probably a good niche of old school fans, Crow Cop Thadour, that fight, like I still keep, still have memories of that, man. We just talked about it recently, I think, and just the way that that fight hit home, man, and then it lived up to all the hype too, like how hyped we were for that fight. And, you know, to us, I mean, that was,

I think that night was like, this is the greatest fighter in history of martial arts tonight. And, you know, and maybe or maybe didn't really play out that way. But that night, I mean, I felt like for me, that was the only time that I can think of. There might have been another one, but that was like a time that it truly felt like this was the Super Bowl. You know, we always talked about like the Super Bowl of M.A. and this and that. And to me, like, it felt like the Super Bowl. Like when you're a kid dreaming about catching the winning touch.

down for the Super Bowl. Like, that's what, like, Cro-Cop-Fed-Oar felt like to me. I wish, like, I always say, like, I kind of wish I could recapture the feeling of that moment because, like, even though at that point, I was technically doing a little bit of writing

in mixed martial arts, I was still, I think, in college at that point. And so, like, I wasn't, I was just a fan. And I just remember staying up at, like, four in the morning or six in the morning, or whatever it was to watch that fight. And, like, don't get me wrong,

like, I still love mixed martial arts. Like, it's my favorite sport in the world. It absolutely is, but I still love it. But you do get a different perspective when you're around it all the time. You talk to the fighters all the time. You cover it. You know, it's still a – I mean, I love my job, but it's still a job. Like, I still have to, like, write about it.

I'm not just watching it just to watch it as a fan. And I think the closest, like that – the energy that I felt that night just watching it, because I had no investment. I was just a fan at that point. Like, I wasn't covering the event. I wasn't writing about it. I was just watching it as a fan. And, like, the excitement of watching Fador and Krocop finally show down.

Like, I was so excited. I think the closest – I've covered. come to that since then in terms like my emotions running high. And it was different though because it was more personal. But I made this seriously. It was when you fought Eric Silva in Cincinnati. And I was there, obviously. I was front row

for that one. That one was that because like obviously as a media member, I have to stay unbiased, but I think it's well documented. You and I are good friends. So it's like, it was hard for me because I'm like I'm watching my dude go in and fight Eric Silva in this main event. It was in your home, walking out

to Avenge Sevenfold, in the Cincinnati in the Cincinnati Arena like just it was just like in that like for like 15 minutes however long that fight lasted until you knocked him out I just was like full fan mode for that moment but I was also nervous because you know it's my dude like you know I mean like I used I've always said like when you fought when Rich Franklin fought and when George Griselle fought guys I knew personally like on a different level and Coleman but Coleman was already kind of like at the end of his career when we became friends but like yeah like it's just it was a different emotion like in that moment I was like just holding so tightly I didn't get up and cheer because that's just

really poor form for a media member but like I was just like living on pins and needles when you got the knockout I was like in my in my head I was like fuck yeah well I mean that that's very meaningful to me that I appreciate that that's really cool but um I'd tell you the only other time that I kind of felt this same way as faynor or crow cop wasn't even MMA it was mayweather pack yeah that's the closest I ever got like again because it felt like like the fucking greatest of all time. Unfortunately, I know that it happened five years too late, but it still felt that big at the time.

You know, like I'm, I'm on pins and needles. Like, like, we're about to see the greatest of our generation right now. And, you know, about three or four rounds in,

I was like, all right, we know it's going to, that's not, not too uncommon in a Floyd fire. I had a few rounds in. You're like, all right,

this isn't exactly what I thought it was going to be, you know, and Pat Yale kept trying. But that was, only time i think the lead up to the fight i kind of felt that way and um yeah but maybe live you know it was interesting like what would you say okay excluding me fighting like what was the most exciting live event ever you know i got one for you and i wonder i know you were there i put money that you were there but i wonder if you'd have this sarah the same sentiment the the best fight

i've ever seen in person like being there in live in the arena. Not necessarily the best fight, but like, what was the one that like the energy? Yeah, the energy you felt the most. It didn't, it didn't pay off in the fight, but the most energy, without a doubt, was Connor, Jose Aldo. The energy was insane in the building.

And there were so much animosity and had built up so much because they were supposed to fight on the card where you fought Tim Means and, you know, obviously Josay got injured. and so he ended up fighting Chad Mendez and they had the delays, did the ultimate fighter, all this other kind of stuff. When they finally got to do Joseo

and Connor McGregor, man, the energy was insane for that. Like, it was absolutely insane. Now, you know, it lasted 16 seconds, but just the... But that had to have been crazy too, though, like 13 seconds. Because I remember just watching it on TV.

I was like, there's no way this is over right now, right? You're like, this is impossible. Like, what am I dreaming? Like, are you guys seeing what I'm seeing what I'm seeing here? Like, I remember I was sitting on the very end of Media Row, and one of the UFCPR people brought over Kevin Connolly, who was in the HBO show Entourage. I guess they had run out of seats or something, and so he, like, sat him next to me for the Connor Aldo fight, and he's like, hey, do you mind if he sits there? I was like, of course I don't mind. It's the guy for fucking entourage.

And I always remember the moment when Jose goes down and Connor wins and the whole place erupts. And I looked over at him, and his jaw was just down on the floor. Like he's like, oh my God, I can't believe what I just saw. And yeah, like that just, you know, the energy of that moment was insane. Obviously the result was shocking too, but just like how it all played out. It was just there was just so that was like one of the biggest like bad blood fights of all time. And then for it, in a weird way, ending that way was even more dramatically. It had been a five round war that would have been cool.

But the fact that it ended in 16 seconds with, you know, Connor landing that hand and Jose going face first. Insane. It was scenes, man. It was scenes. All right, I got this is what, I got one for it. The most energy that I felt at a live event. And I've been to some decent high energy. Was that actually the Hamza DDP, the lead up was, boy, that crowd was fucking on fire, boy.

Like, they were about it. And, you know, I was pretty confident that it was going to turn out the way that it turned out. I thought it might be a little bit more exciting. But, you know, I wasn't quite as hyped as the crowd. you know when you feel the energy in the building you can't help but your energy come up too so that one was pretty intense too but

here in Columbus 2010 circa 2010 11 I think no it would have been 2006 7 okay Cotour Sylvia oh yeah bro when Cotor made his walkout

I mean the song back in the saddle right he came out to that which was just a fucking perfect walkout because he come out of retirement to beat Tim Sylvia who everybody fucking hated and and then he drops him what 10 30 seconds in or something like that first round knocked him down I remember that yeah like right away too like right away you're like dude that was to me that was probably like the live probably the strongest energy I ever felt like I just remember you know because I'm sitting like the nosebleeds at this point and like the you know it was deafening you know like it was deafening you know like

it felt like a wall of sound, like how loud everybody got. And I was just, I was so loud myself that, you know, you could barely even hear. You couldn't hear anything. I mean, it was fucking nuts, bro. And I remember, I remember after that fight, we went to the fighter hotel to try to get, like, try to meet the fighters and stuff. And it was the first time I remember, like, feeling like fighters or rock stars, because there was just a crowd of people waiting to meet Randy Couture coming in with the bell.

And I was like, wow, because before that, like, if you were an MMA fan, it's almost like you were in kind of like a secret club, you know what I mean? Like, there were fans, but, and don't get me wrong, like, it was nationwide arena. There was 19,000 people there. Like, it was crowded. But, like, still, you're kind of like, yeah, but you're just like a casual. You're not a real hardcore fan. And then to go back to that hotel and see, like, I mean, it was just insane. Like, they actually had to have security escort Randy in.

I was like, I'd never seen that before. Like, security with a fighter. Like, oh, my gosh. Like, it felt like I was watching, you know, rocks. star like you know, I had to tell like Tom Brady or something walking. Like you would just never see that for MMA. And I remember that was like the first time I was like, this guy's a rock star. Like this guy's an actual star because he couldn't get to the lobby.

Like they had to bring in security to give him to the lobby carry his belt through. Which is probably mainly due to it being during the Arnold Festival, right? The festival we have here in Columbus with what a half million people in town or whatever, all fitness people and, you know, the UFC coming. I mean, what a glorious thing that was when they did it, right? but because I wanted to he was doing an appearance the next day at the Arnold's and I went to go get an autograph you know and that line was I mean it must have been a half mile long I mean it was through the entire fucking convention center so I was like so I look around you know just walking around and next thing you know I see Tim Sylvia and had maybe two people in line if even that I was like well I'm gonna get a fucking autograph from Tim Sylvia then oh man God, you know, God blessed him, man. Like, I felt so bad for him, but, you know, to be fair, like, he was, I don't, I hate to be hard on him, like, because, you know, losing a fight, like, sucks.

And, like, especially in the next day having to go sign autographs. You got black eyes and, you know, you got beat up pretty bad. Everybody's cheering against you. You got a short-ass line. But, like, he was kind of a dick to me, too, you know? And I was like, I didn't, like, save the autographing. And I was, like, fucked him, so, but, you know. But, you know, but, yeah.

So it's cool, man, because Couture, you know, I know him now. You know, I wouldn't say we're like close friends or anything, but like I've spoken to him and like we have respect for each other. I've been to his gym multiple times. And he's one of the few guys that, you know, they always say don't meet your idols, right? But he's one of the few guys like you meet him. You know, bro, you're everything I fucking thought you would be, man. Yeah, Randy's, Randy's. Yeah, actually, I've become kind of buddies with Randy, too, and like an incredible dude, like just one of the nicest guys and like as genuine as you can get.

And, yeah, like, for me, it was Coleman, like, actually becoming friends with Coleman. Like, I was like, oh, my God, I'm friends with Mark Coleman. Like, that just doesn't seem real. But, like, now it is. But, like, again, like, you know, never meet your idols. You meet Coleman. You're like, you're way more than I thought you were going to be. But, yeah, like, in a good way, man.

We love Coleman. You know, he's a fucking wild man, though, right? He is. Like, dude, I never forget recording that podcast for, like, four years with him. It's just some of the stories of doing that show with Coleman. Because, you know, like, when you think about Coleman, like, you think you're going to meet this and, you know, this monster of a man that's just, you know, ready to eat your soul at any time. And then you meet him and, like, he's a fucking goofball. You know, he's like, and he's like the nicest guy ever, like, would do anything for you.

And he's like, you know, he's usually got one of his daughters around these days. And like, it's just so comical, man. You got to love the guy. Yeah, it's funny. I remember I texted him. I can't remember when it was. It was sometime after the house. fire had happened and he'd lost his phone obviously and I text him and I called him I always

call him coley that's what I always call him and I text him I didn't tell him it was me I just didn't think about like him not getting my number back and he answered back and he's like is this so-and-so or Damon because those are the two people who call me coli and I was like it's just funny like he knew it had to he knew it was me or one other person that called him coli and uh and I know who the other person is too oh do you okay he says one of two people who call him Cole and he's like it's either you or Damon I was like it's Damon it was just funny but yeah yeah what a legendary

guy man but I said you know they always saying never meet Charles man Couture I mean he is that fucking guy bro like he is everything that he lives up to exactly who you think he would be man just a great guy all around and just a legendary figure all around and you know I haven't

seen heard much about him lately though I'm not sure what he's up to lately but he's doing commentary with PFL obviously had that accident, the car accident where he got burned in the car accident, but he's doing good now, like he's okay now, and he, you know, he's back doing commentary for PFL, so he's doing good. I usually, I usually do interviews

with him, like, before and after the PFL season, but he had that car accident, and he was kind of out of action for a month or so, but he's already back doing commentary again, so I'm sure we'll catch up relatively soon, but yeah, Cotor's like the epitome of everything you think, he legitimately is Captain America. Like, he really is.

Yeah. Yeah. I want to real quick before we get to anything else, I want to ask you, like, this week, week the smashing machine opens with Ryan Bader playing Mark Coleman. I know you're not a movie guy, but are you at some point going to see that? I feel like you've got to see that at some point. I'll absolutely be seeing that movie. I absolutely wanted to go to the premiere this week.

It's on Friday here in Columbus. I'm assuming you're going to. I have a seminar in Houston. I'm flying out Friday 5 p.m. The preneers is 7, so I'm just barely going to miss it. And that kind of stinks, man. If I would have known about it, I would have changed the timing. but is what it is.

So I'll be back. I'll absolutely be watching that movie. I can't wait to see that, man. I'm excited. Like, I don't know. I never, I've interviewed Mark Kerr maybe once or twice. I don't know him that well,

but I know, like, everybody else in that movie. Like, obviously, Coleman is, you know, close. I'm actually, in terms of, like, people in the movie,

like, I've been buddies with Ryan Bader for many, many years. I've known boss rooting for, you know, over a decade, two decades, probably at this point.

Like, so, like, it's weird because I remember that documentary, like, watching that documentary when it came out and then obviously as years passed by and getting to know coleman and getting to know boss and like the people in that story so it's like i have like 19 different weird connections to this story even though i was i was never really close with mark cur i i like i said i think interviewed him maybe once or twice we were never like buddies or anything i never got

close with him but i've known boss for like years i've known ryan for years and no colman for years so i'm i'm really interested in this one i actually you just reminded me i don't know why i couldn't I'm glad we're talking about this because I've talked with Kerr for a couple of years now before even documentary stuff he's supposed to come and do a seminar at my gym at some point and I've talked to him a bunch of times

and just never set it up I think now would be a really good time to be setting that up 100% yeah you got to get him out here I'll come over to this seminar I'd love to do that man Kurt Kurt's like I said legend and I think it's cool like this movie's getting real buzz and people I know who have seen it

said it's really good like it's really I've heard the same. I've heard the same. Yeah. Because I remember I talked to Bader after he filmed it, because obviously at that point I hadn't seen a trailer or anything. And I was like, was it weird playing a guy like you know, and it's like, you know, alive. Like I know like when you're when you're doing it like, you know, years later, people can like kind of play the part however they want because the person's not around. He's like, yeah, it was a little intimidating. Like playing Coleman because like I know Coleman. Like he's a legend like to play him. And then everything I've heard by the way, Bader kills it. I've heard Bader's like really good in the movie.

Like playing Coleman. I've heard he's actually, because like that. That. whole story revolves around that pride grand prix when Kerr was supposed to be making his big comeback but ended up being Coleman won the tournament so like that's like a big part of this movie so it's going to be interesting and obviously I love Bader but I was like was a weird playing a guy who you

know and is like still around he's like yeah it was little intimidating because Coleman was there and like you know he had to talk to Coleman so yeah yeah it's going to be here I can't wait to see it man wish I could be here this weekend but is what it is but instead we get I get to the seminar and then we'll get to

what, UFC 3, what, 20 this weekend? After aftermath, yeah, absolutely. Well, last thing I want to mention where we get there, we were already gone off the rails here, so we're going to preview 320 a second, but I want to mention this because we were talking about Vanderly a second ago, and obviously if you've seen the news out there, Vanderle had a boxing match this weekend.

He got disqualified for multiple headbuts, which is certainly not good, but then there was a giant melee afterwards, and he got absolutely not cold. I guess apparently it was his opponent's son, but it was a melee. Like it was just everyone swinging and throwing punches And obviously Van der Le got knocked out cold

And I saw a photo of him today, man His eyes all messed up. And listen, you can't predict a post-fight brawl No one would have predicted that to happen in the fight But like watching him take a punch and just get knocked that cold I don't care if it was a soccer punch I don't care how it happened It just raises the point once again of like

These guys should not be fighting man Like Vandleys 48 and all the damage he's taken during his career And I've gotten a lot of messages from fans say, well, he wanted to fight. Like, I'm like, fighters always want to fight. But it takes a promoter who's willing to pay them to do it. Like, Matt, that's why I wanted to ask you about this, Matt, because you're a fighter, you know, like, it's not the fighters.

I mean, I'm not blaming, not saying the fighter doesn't take some blame. Like, yes, I understand you can put some of the blame on Vanderlay, but fighters always want to fight. It takes a promoter or a relative or somebody to tell him, hey man, this is not a good idea. And, like, that was just evidence of that. Even though I know it's a brawl and you can't control that part of it, but, like, watching him take one punch and just get absolutely not cold is just brutal.

Yeah, and unfortunately, I mean, no fighter is going to listen to, you know, coaches or friends or family and be like, oh, you shouldn't do it. They're like, I'll prove you wrong. And that's what we get fighters to the level that they're at is proving people wrong. Like, no one believes, you know, when you start your first amateur MMA fight that you're going to be a UFC champion. either you know so it's like i mean that that's what we live off of man is that feeling and you know i just encourage all these fighters like anyone listening any fighters that hear this man like you got to be more than just a fighter you know you got a your identity just has to be more than that

now when you're in there fighting you have to be only a fighter right i mean when you're actively competing trying to work towards a championship you don't need to be distracting your mind and you know you can't have all your all your eggs need to be in that basket you can't have a single egg in another basket man but but when it's time to hang it up like you you got to find something else man you have to and you know i know these guys you know vandale probably got paid pretty decent you know but like there's other ways to make money man and and i think a lot of you know I've struggled with this myself. Like you feel like you're almost almost too good to do something else.

Right. I go into my own gym, right? And like people are like amazed that I'm in my gym. I'm like, bro, I didn't think you'd be here. You know, like, you know, it's like, dude, like, do you think that I just like travel the world and, you know, make millions of dollars everywhere I go or something? And yet that is what people think, I think, I think. You know, they think I should be living in Miami.

you know, with Rolexes and beautiful women all around all the time. And it's like, that's just not the case, man. It's, you know, we don't get paid what they think we get paid from the UFC, right? And, you know, I know casuals or regular people aren't following the sport, the news and media and stuff that closely, right? So when we're talking about, you know, things like the lawsuit, where we found out how much people are actually getting paid, Like these people don't know that shit.

So but we do we all know it and I think there's a I think there's a lot of How'd you say it like guys you know we see guys like Connor and Of course like Floyd. I don't know like like we see other fighters and we think we we see them on social media and we see the um what we think that their lives are like, well, he's living like this. I can't be this cheeseball over here living like this. And I think we have to get past that, you know.

I don't know, you know, I can't read other fighters' minds. So I don't know if that's the case for everyone. But like I've struggled with that myself and felt like, you know, I should be, because people will tell you that too, you know, they'll be like, oh, you know, you shouldn't have to be in your gym doing this or you shouldn't have to, like, you know, I flip a house or something. And I go to the house and check on the brother, I can't believe you came here. Like, I'm flipping the fucking house.

I'm a bugger. Who'd you think was going to come? You know, it's like, I don't know. I don't think I'm really articulating what I mean so well. But there's something with these fighters where they just can't get past them being a fighter. And we have to recognize that, you know, this isn't a lifetime sport. the martial arts can be like that's what i'm dedicated to the martial arts for life but you can't be a fighter for such a long time man it's just you have you only get one brain man

you know you could get your limbs broken you can get your legs torn off but you're when your brain starts going like you don't have anything left man and you know i i know a very very wealthy guy that told me this and it was actually fascinating you know and he's not he's not he he started training with me a little bit with the one learned some jih Tzu and stuff and I was kind of wondering why he was like well he's like you know I'm not so healthy anymore and and he's like he's like I'm kind of a pussy he's like if someone wanted to like rob my wife you know on the street he's like I wouldn't be able to do anything about it he's like you know and she's got fucking he didn't say this but I mean she's probably got a fucking easy 100k of jewelry on her you

know what I mean so it's like so but he said you know he would trade to all the money that he has just to feel like he's 30 again or 20 or 5 or whatever. I forget the number. And I found that kind of fascinating, you know? Like we got to remember that, man. Like your health is by far the single most important thing in your life by a large margin. You know, we do all these things to, we sacrifice all of our health to chase wealth. And then when we get the wealth, like, I don't think there's a single person that wouldn't trade it at all.

back for their health. Yeah, I feel like there's two things here real quick. You know, when I remember when Daniel Cormei retired and I talked to him about it, and he told me he's like, you'll never duplicate that feeling of what it's like to walk down to the cage and battle another person. Nothing can duplicate that. He's like, and he told me that was the hardest part to walk away from. It wasn't the money.

It wasn't the, it wasn't the exhilaration of winning you. It's just that feeling, that anticipation of walking. He's like, you can't duplicate it. It's impossible. You can corner guys. You can do a million different things. never duplicate that feeling of walking to the octagon and stepping into the cage and actually doing battle with another man. He's like, that can, he's like, and that's what I'm going to

miss most, that competition. But then on the other side, real quick, the, the cornering guys makes it worse too, because now you see them experience here. You're like, why that and not me? But go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. And then the other thing is, is the money. Because I remember when you retire, you're like, you know, like you were mentioning like why you're retired when you got the call. You didn't feel that same energy and you knew it was time to walk away. But you said it is hard when you get that paycheck, like guaranteed 100 grand, $200. underground, whatever it is. You're just not going to get that, like, in life.

Like, you may make $250,000 a year doing what you're doing, but that's over a year-long period. You're never going to get someone to just hand you a $250,000 check and saying, congrats on your win. Like, that's a lot of money to just, you know, for one night's work or technically one night's work. It's actually weeks and months of work, but you know what I mean. And, yeah, and, and listen, I think, you know, Vandaleigh came along at a time

when guys were not making tons of money. Like, he wasn't even in a situation where he's, like, like in it, like where he could be a Rhonda, where Rhonda came in and had two or three years, made a ton of money. And clearly she doesn't need to work anymore. Like, and good for her. Like, I'm happy she's able to do that. But Vanderlay came along, like, before the sport was signing $7.7 billion deals to go on Paramount.

So, like, his biggest paydays were probably $100,000. I'm guessing. Like, that's probably like one of his biggest paydays was $100,000, $150,000, maybe. Maybe for the Chuck fight, something like that. So it's not like he made the kind of money where he could just live and, you know, retire and never work in their day in his life. So I know that much. money's probably part of it and I'm sure you're right.

Like that promotion was like, here's a, you know, 200 grand, 250 grand. And that's pretty tempting to go in there and, you know, think you're boxing with minimal risk in it. And I know you can't predict a post-fight brawl's going to happen. But when you get punched one time, you go down like that and you're that messed up, I'm just like, I just, I don't know, man. I get it from the fighter side. But I said this on Twitter.

I said, it's just like the referee man. Sometimes you've got to say fighters from themselves. You know what I mean? like and and because I saw this recently Joe Rogan was going to do that though they can like they're not going to stop the fighter from going in there if he wants to well no I'm saying like the promoters though like if you're fighting like you can you can you can still want to fight but ultimately you want to get paid for your fight if no one will pay you to fight because you go fight anyway sure you can but you know most people are doing it for that financial you know

yeah that's you know that's part of it if vanderlay wasn't making 250 grand for that fight he wouldn't have gone just box for the shit of it like he would have just he wouldn't have done that So, like, these promoters, like, they got to have a conscience somewhere along the lines. Like, I, you know what I mean? Like, at some point, somebody's got to draw the line and say, listen, we're just not going to book you, man. Like, it's not safe for you to be here. Like, I'm not going to be the guy who promotes Vanderlai Silva's final fight. And I'm not trying to be more, but literally his final fight.

Like, I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to have that on my conscience. I promoted his last living fight or something. I mean, that can happen. And watching him get knocked out last that is like, oh, my God. Like, that's irreparable damage. you may never recover from. Yeah, it sucks, man.

And, you know, the hard, the hard thing is, like, we all get used to this lifestyle, you know, like, you know, we, everybody talks about,

it's kind of funny, you know, I was at a business consultant meeting, not too long ago, and, well, actually, like over a year ago,

but, you know, they were talking about the discipline that I had, right? You know, they're kind of using me as an example, right?

Like, I'm the quote, unquote, famous guy in the room, you know, and they're like, man, you know,

the discipline that you got I have to reach this level of the sport, bro. And, you know, I kind of stepped up and I was like, bro, like, you don't realize, like, I didn't have discipline. And most high level athletes don't. It has nothing to do with discipline. It's like, we love this shit so much. Like, we would, like, we would just do it anyway.

And the days that we don't want to do it and go in anyway, like, our motivation is still, like, you know, two times someone who's just a hobbyist on our worst days, right? It's higher motivation than the other guys, the hobbyist guy's best day. So it's like, you know, that motivation is complete, it's just completely separate from discipline. So they talk about we have all this discipline. So what these guys, you know, when they're fighting like this, you know, because, they're just trying to get paid, they need to find some of that discipline, right?

Because we get so used to this lifestyle. And we just love like, you know, again, just being motivated to go do something. We've got to find this other purpose, man. We've got to find that discipline. Jocko wrote the best book, one of the best books ever, Discipline equals freedom.

And that's what we're so used to that is that freedom. So we've got to stop. and find that discipline to create some more freedom for ourselves. Yeah, it's just, and in that case, like, for Vanderlain, I don't know, maybe it was the money, maybe it was just like, I want to recapture that feeling of being in a fight again. I don't know what it was, but watching that at 48, knowing the damage he's taken, it's heartbreaking, man. Like, watching that, I didn't feel good. Like, I watched it last night several times because I was trying to, like, see what happened.

Not a single time did I watch it that I feel good about it. Like, I had to watch it because I was trying to see what happened. Like, how did it? Because I just saw Van derly go down. I was like, who hit it? What happened? So I'm like rewatching the video. And every time I felt like I was dirty for it.

I was like, God, I don't feel good watching this. Like, this is just like, it's like a snuff film or something. Like, I don't, I don't enjoy watching one of my martial arts heroes. One of the guys I loved growing up watching just get absolutely laid out cold. And, and that's getting knocked out cold is bad no matter what age you are. But when you're 48 and you've got a lifetime of damage on top of that, like, that's a, like, that's potentially life-changing. Like he may have, he, it seems like he's okay.

He's putting out videos and stuff. Seems like he's okay outside of like some, some, you know, facial damage. But that's the kind of damage you don't walk away from. Like, there's a world where he gets punched and knocked out last night, and we're having a much different conversation today. And that's the reality. That's the reality being 48 going through everything Van der Leys gone through and have that happen.

From what I understand, he also, tell me if I'm wrong. I just seem to meme about it, but they miss weight by 44 pounds? Well, no, he was just, it was like an open weight because he, he was supposed to by Vitor and then Vitor fell out and so he got like a pro boxer replacement and the guy was just smaller than him. So he was just 45, he was just 44 pounds bigger than his opponent, but like that was all,

it was all part of the planning. No, I mean, he was getting, he was getting pieced up pretty good and he had like four headbutts and he got disqualified. And then that's when the melee broke out, which, you know. So did you get to watch the actual fight? Because I haven't seen any eclipse of the fight at all. I haven't seen the, I was watching it out of the,

I was watching at the same time as the Perth card. So it's kind of like out of the, out of the side view, but like he was getting beat pretty handily from what I saw. Now, Grant, I wasn't watching intently, but then he started grabbing the guy and doing the headbutting,

because I think he clearly was getting pieced up on the outside. So, because he went from Vitor, who is his age, and I think Vitor is probably a better boxer at this time. Vitor's not terrible.

We've seen him go in there and box and win more recently. And then to go to a smaller, like, professional boxer, like a guy who has multiple title wins on his record, like, you know, pretty well,

known Brazilian legend kind of guy. Small or not, probably not a good idea. So, yeah, it didn't look great going into it and then he had buttoned and like four times I got disqualified. Lucky he didn't get his ear bitten off. But yeah, I just like, it's heartbreaking, man. You don't want to see that.

I know you don't want to see that. I don't want to see it. No, that sucks, man. You know, um, like I said, these guys, you got to find another identity, man.

You know, I don't mean to get on like some TED talk or some shit, but, you know, It's just what that's what it is, man. You know, we get so stuck on this identity that we're fighting and we feel like there's nothing else that we're good at, nothing else we can do. And, you know, I think a lot of these guys should go back and remember when they first started fighting

and how much they sucked at it and the amazing things that we accomplished doing something that that difficult. And it's like you can take that energy and put it into something else and you can do great things elsewhere too. You know, you know, don't don't don't. Don't narrow yourself down to just simply being a fighter, man. We can be more than that. And I guess that's easy to say, you know, I think everybody's got a different path and different journey. But I'd like to see more people just doing bigger, better things with their lives.

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and the co-made event. Let me open with the co-made event, Matt, because Marab has been on such an incredible run, beats Umar and Magamatta. I'll beat Sean O'Malley. Now it's his third title defense of the year. Corey Sanhagen got the one win over Deveson Figuero after losing the Umar,

it gets the title shot. By the way, I want to be clear about this. I love Corey, but like he got it because it's kind of like default because there was no one else for Murr for Marab to fight after he'd already beaten everybody. Corey is phenomenal.

Corey's one of the most dynamic strikers in the world. It always felt like he was one win away from a title shot. And he just kept, like, he had the Al Jamein fight. And then he had, like, the Peter Yan title fight on short notice. Things just kept happening to kind of prevent it from Corey from, like, reaching that apex. But let's be honest, Matt, he's coming into this fight as a massive underdog. Marab is on a role.

I know you know, Corey. I know you trained around Corey for for a while when you lived down in Denver. So I'm not going to force you to sit there and say, man, he's going to get ragged all by Marab. but like everyone has a chance. I mean, I know Corey's an incredibly skilled martial arts. He has a chance. But like, what does he have to do to beat Marab? And I mean, beyond just like keep it standing because like, yeah, I mean, I guess it's his best chance of winning.

But even that's not a guarantee because that doesn't mean you're going to get Marab off you from the clinch and on the cage. So like, what does Corey have to do to pull all this upset? You know, I mean, if you're Corey's coach, I think there's a lot of details that you get into about how to, to counter his wrestling and how to strike off of the wrestling and, you know, counter his clinching and turn him against the cage. So you're not the one getting pushed up against the cage. You know, when he shoots, like popping shots off. Realistically, I'm the same as you.

I love Corey. And, you know, I wouldn't say we were close or anything. Like, he's a different weight class. You know, we had a big team we were out there training with. But, you know, I hung out with him and chatted with him some. And, you're just an amazing person all around. but realistically on the outside, you know, what I'm looking at is his best chance is probably a flying knee or an uppercut on the shot or something. You know, if Marab pauses for a second, throwing, you know, a spinning technique or something, you know, ultimately you kind of call that getting lucky, right?

You know, I know if he ends up landing it, you know, sort of the Mazvedal-Assan thing, you'd be like, it wasn't luck. I plan that shit out, motherfucker, you know, but it's like, and 99 out of 100, it doesn't play out that way, though. And, you know, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's kind of the, the uphill that Cori's on, it looks like, you know, just on paper. And you never know, but what it looks like on papers, you know, he's got a, he's got to, he's got to find one of those little gaps, which Rob doesn't leave a lot of gaps, you know, gaps in time.

where Marab just stops for a second. You got to go for it right then. You can't take your time. You know, you've got to get Marab on the defense somehow. Again, you know, I think you could talk about tactically, you know, ways to counter his wrestling and create shots off of there, turning him when he's pushing you against the fence, different things like that.

But ultimately, I mean, you know, you got short amounts of time. that you got some big shots to get off. There's not really time for setups and, and, you know, fakes and faints and things like that. Like, you just got to fucking go for it, man. It kind of reminds me the run that Marabs on right now, and I know there's probably going to be some people who agree

and some people think I'm insane, but it kind of reminds me when George St. Pierre was on his run. And, like, it took until he fought, when he fought, when he finally got to, like, a Johnny Hendricks who had wrestling and, you know, maybe was doing some extracurricular things outside the Octagon. It took a fight like that for George to kind of meet his match a little bit. And I think we saw that a little bit with the Umar fight.

Umar has incredible wrestling, power, and Marab still beat him. But when George fought Tiago Alves, when George fought Carlos Konda, when George fought Dan Hardy, we had to talk ourselves into believing the guy had a chance. Well, oh, Dan Hardy, man, he's got one-punch knockout power. You know, Carlos Konda, dynamic striker. Every round starts on the feet. And he did actually have a knockdown that third round where he bloodied George and actually had him hurt for a moment.

But then it just, it kind of feels like that we have to talk ourselves into believing a guy can win. And like, I think Corey can win. Corey's a very dynamic strike or very dynamic fighter. But if you're asking me for odds or asking me for like in true belief who's going to win this fight, I mean, it's Marab. Like Marab's just a, he really literally lives up to his nickname as the machine. He just seen, and I think the scary thing about Marab, and I know from talking to his coach John Wood, is he's getting better.

Like he's not standing in, he's not running in place. Like, he's not the set. Like, what he did to O'Malley in the rematch was better than what he did in the first fight. Like he took him down, he out, beat him on the feet a little bit, beat him in the clinch, took him down and submitted him. It's scary when a guy that good continues to get better. And I think we, like, that again, kind of reminds me of George, when he kind of came

out as this karate striker guy, he got knocked together, he lost this fight with Matt Sarah, then comes back and he turns into this incredibly dominant wrestler. And you're like, where the hell this come from? and then just you could not out chess match George St. Pierre. You might have a moment, but like I said, you almost talk yourself into it. Like, oh, this guy's got a chance. But in reality, you're like, yeah, he's going to lose. So, like, I love Corey.

I think Corey's awesome. I'm glad he's getting his title shot, but I would feel a lot better right now if Corey San Diego is fighting Sean O'Malley than I do against him fighting Marley. You know what I mean? Absolutely, yeah. That's kind of, I hate, you know, I guess a lot of times I kind of, like I kind of get picks wrong, right? Like these guys, I think everybody gets picks wrong a lot.

Sure, right? But why? Because it's M.A. And sometimes this is one of those fights where it feels like the best chance that Corey has is the fact that it's MMA. And like crazy shit happens. And, you know, you might be able to pull off one of those crazy things. And that's where I was saying, like, you know, where Corey's just got to be on for five rounds and when one of those little gaps opens he's got to fucking go not try to set it up not try to

fake his way into it not try to be slick about it you just got to go and truthfully that's just not really corey style you know he's more of a chess match guy on the feet also and um marab is probably one of the best guys at shutting down the chess match right he's like he's like i'm not playing chess with you bro like i'm i'm playing checkers here Like, I don't even know if that's a good analogy, you know, like, he's like, I'm just a fucking bull. I'm just running forward and I'm just coming at you. And, you know, how many times, you know, if Corey Zay, have been able to elude some, you know, like what they call it the Matador?

It's like, dude, like, how many times can you, you know, wave that little sheet and you're the bull not run, not run you over? So I don't see very many times, you know. Yeah. And you hate to say, you hate to. hate to kind of dilute it all the way down to like lucky punch or lucky strike, but it kind of does feel like it's going to take a perfectly time flying knee or a perfectly time spinning Elber, just something unorthodox, because if it just stays, you know, mono and mono one-on-one fight and there's nothing crazy to happen. I don't see anybody being Marab right now.

You know what I mean? Like, it's just he's on a roll right now. I know everyone loses. Everyone gets caught. It happens eventually. But right now, I just don't see anyone beat Marab. We've talked about it more than once, man. You know, the, yeah, everyone loses blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, Marab's everybody's got a chance, you know. The problem is the Marab's X factor. That fucking cardio. I mean, when you talk about being a machine, he is the machine of machines.

You know, like he does not relent for one fucking second, the entire fight. I'm not sure we've ever seen anybody do that. I mean, I mean, even I was kind of known for it, right? Like, he's coming the whole time. But like, you know, the little gaps would happen, right? And then you get fucked up or, you know, you lose or, you know, there's a weakness here there. You know, I'm not sure if we've, I just don't know that we've ever seen that. I don't know if anybody even comes to mind where, like, they're just firing the whole fucking time.

And not even, you know, we see like a Nick Diaz, right, who's throwing punches the whole time or, you know, some silly strikes in with the punches or whatever. it's like he's throwing punches kicks shots you know he'll wrestle with you scramble with you back to it you know he'll throw you down like like he'll put everything together for 25 minutes straight and not take a fucking breath and I'm not knocking Nick Diaz because I love Nick Diaz love Nate Diaz but like throwing a thousand jabs in five rounds is far different have been throwing like 100 shots, like 100 takedowns. Like wrestling is more exhausting. And Marab's like, oh, it's the fifth round and I've already thrown 200 shots.

I'm going to take for another takedown and you're not going to stop me. Like it's ridiculous. That's actually a good analogy. It's a little bit like a jab, you know, because he's not even going like full bore trying to take you down every time. But he's like, you're going to be worried about it. You know, like he doesn't even care if it. It's almost like, you know, guys throw jabs like Diaz.

He'll throw that jab. And he don't even care if it hits you. but it's like, you know, sort of, we always use the analogy if it's like a bee flying around your head, you know, when you, Nick DeS is throwing those jabs, and it's like, it's just aggravating you until it finally decides to land on you and sting you. And Marab does that with the shots.

Like, it's just a bee that's constantly coming at you. And you, like, you can't just not deal with it because the second you stop dealing with it, then that's when he's going to fuck you up and put you on your ass for it. It's like the Peter Yon fight. He only landed like four takedowns out of like 70 attempts, but Peter Yon couldn't do anything else.

else. He just had to defend the takedown the entire time and ended up basically just like, he was like, yeah, your defense was great, but you did nothing else. You produced no offense because all you could do is try to stop his takedowns. Exactly. And that's what's saying, like, you know, you got to strategically, if you can come up with a way to counter that and get off some strikes, you know, as he's coming in, you know, like a knee or something or uppercut and still counter the wrestling shot. Umar was doing a decent job of it early on, right? Like he he countered some things and, you know, made Marab scramble and you would land shots and kind of odd spots. Again, he just wasn't able to hold it up for, I think that was only a three-round fight.

Am I run? No, that's a five-round. It was a five-round. It was after two rounds. The cardio just backfired. Myraab was still going to 110 miles an hour, and Umer started slowing down. Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah, that's exactly.

It was five rounds. Yeah, because if it was three, then Umar may have won that fight, right? Yeah. that's where I remember now I watch that live and you know I mean that again that's an uphill battle man because you know you're basically trying to counter someone's strength you know like like you have to you're almost forced to play into his strength and and that's not where you want to be that's the antithesis of what you want to be as a fighter you want to funnel them into your strength but with marab he basically forces you into his strength so matchup-up-wise

there's very few guys, you know, that that has even a potential of working for. You know, like, Sarukian, you know, guys like that where you're like, you know, maybe he could find a way to do it. But it's like, again, I love Corey Sannhagen, but on paper, I mean, he knows it. He's got to know it, right? On paper, you know, you're facing the machine. 100%. Real quick, before we move on to main event, give our pick on that one. I think right now, I know everyone's got a different definition of what pound for

pound means and there's no right or wrong answer because there is no real pound for pound it's all hypothetical we're just kind of like having fun talking about it but i think it comes down to a three-man race it's islam it's ilia and it's marab and obviously ilia just beat charles oliver but he's not scheduled to fight right now and it looks like probably going to be either gaichi or patty next year more than likely probably kicking off that paramount deal with one of those big fights obviously we know islam is going up to 170 and fight jack delamadela made i think he's able to make a big statement if he can win that fight and marab's the only one that hasn't really jumped around weight classes because he's been abandoned weight the entire time.

But I think you got to give you got to give Marab consideration when you're talking about pound for pound. I'm not going to sit there and say he's number one or he should be over Ilya or Islam. I'm just saying like I think the only three correct answers are Islam, Ilya, or Marab. Like the run they're on. And Marab, like you talk about Marab style. Marab's like he lost a couple rounds to Umar, but he was never in trouble.

Like he never looked in trouble. You know what I mean? Like we've seen Ily in trouble. Now it hasn't been a while. it was a pretty long time ago. He had that Jai Herbert Pido Lightway. But he hasn't really, you know, he dominated, you know, Max Holloway, Alex Wolganovsky.

Those are pretty good wins and Charles Olivaira. Islam, you know, you had a couple of dicey moments against Porriere, you know, he had a couple of here and there. Like, Moran Hessan had a dicey moment since he fought, was it Marlon Morayas, like five years ago when he had that kind of crazy fight and he ended up getting the finish in the second round or whatever. Like, dude, the guy's just insane. Like, he's just never in trouble.

He's never hurt or never the looks hurt. Like, he's got to be in that consideration. for one of the best pound for probably i'm not saying he's number one i'm just saying like he's got to be in that list yeah i couldn't agree more you get i agree it's the top three um i think ilia is probably number three there you know and it's so hard to say too because you know the run that he's on right now you're knocking out holloway and wolkenowski and himself is like like like i feel like any other time in history you'd be like dude dude fucking number one like no question about it right but you know he's just got these other two monsters out there

but um you know to me it's between Islam and rob and you know kind of the interesting thing is if you think uh like you said pound for pound so hypothetical but if we look at what a pound for pound guy like marab would be it'd be like Kane Velasquez I think right like he would be like the heavyweight equivalent of Marab in a sense and we've seen what he did in his prime so it's It's like, I don't know. That might be silly, might be meaningless or irrelevant. No, I think that's a great analogy. Like, I know Kane Velasquez is the most hypothetical fighter in history because he couldn't stay healthy.

But when he was healthy, and when he was healthy, Kane Velasquez is the greatest heavyweight of all time. I won't hear otherwise. Like when he was at his absolute best, when he was healthy, you weren't beating Kane Velasquez. Injuries ruined his career, not other fighters. Did he lose? Yeah, he lost fights. But, like, no one ever out Kane. like cane was a monster at his best like cane was the best heavyweight most talented heavyweight ever i think

it's a great comparison because he just outwork guys and just beat the shit out of them like what he did to junior de santa's bowtile like the last two times they fought uh he did to other guys too like um i think him and ral i think it's a great comparison marav is like the bantamweight cane yeah and i guess like the closest heavier guy you put to islam might be like a john jones i guess I don't know. I couldn't really think of anybody else. I'd be close to that. But, you know, if Islam wins this fight against Jack Badella and Adelaina, I mean, I think

it's going to be very difficult to put anybody ahead of Islam. You know, right now, I put the two neck and neck personally. But if Islam goes out there and, you know, at least easy, at least you got to beat Jack, obviously. But, you know, if he dominates him, I mean, I don't think it's hard to, you know, just because of the weight class jumps, you know, and beating a champion. And, you know, it'd be interesting to see how you feel after the fight. Let's say he goes out and beats Jack pretty well. It'd be interesting to see how you feel after because there's always that, you know,

before what you think and after what you think are a lot of times two different things. So I think it would be, looking at it right now, it's going to be a tough way, tough to not say the Islam's number one if he goes out and beats Jack, though. Well, I think historically lightweight and well to it, the two best divisions. I mean, I think Bantway is great right now. I think Fed O.H. great right now, but I think historically lightweight and welterweight is the two best divisions. And if you can conquer both of those divisions, yeah, there's a reason why we always said, like, BJ Pitt at his peak. Like, he was a welterweight champion and a lightweight champion.

Like, there's a reason why we always held BJ in such high regards. Like, my God, just got conquered the two best divisions in the sport. If Islam does that, that's going to be pretty hard to say he's not the best guy in the absolute world, one of the greatest of all time. Real quick for you get out of it. The question will be, I'll just end it here. I guess the question will be is if he goes up and loses to Jack, though, you know, how much does that hurt his status? You know, I like to say not a lot, but, you know, I feel like it shouldn't.

But we know how we feel when people come off losses and you're like, bro, you just, you can't be number one, you know? I think it kind of reminds me when Israel went up to 205 and everyone just to say, assumed he was going to be Jan Bolhovic. Like, Jan was a new champion and kind of like, you know, kind of a, you know, not journeyman's the wrong word, but like, guy had been around, never really got to that point, got to that point, became a champion. And everyone was like, oh, Israel's just going to mop the floor with him.

Like, Israel's on a run. And then he lost. And Israel went back down to 185 and continued winning and obviously ended up having that epic two fights with Alex. And, you know, he's on a bit of a rough run right now. But at his peak, like, I don't think, I don't, I think, I think, I didn't really hurt him too bad. It didn't because he went back down and did his thing.

Now, because if Islam loses and then goes back down and wipes the floor with Ilya, we're all going to forget about it because he's going to go out there and be I'm sorry to board. So like, I think it's always, it's what's next. If he loses to Jack and then loses to Ilya, it's a different conversation. If he goes out and loses to Jack but then wipes the floor with Ilya, we're like, well, you know, he was a lightweight. He should have always been a lightweight. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right, fair enough. Real quick, before we get out of here, we've got to talk real quick about the main event. Obviously, Maga Ben and Kali have won the line. last fight. And I know the cards were like 48, 47, but I don't remember it being that close. Like, I know Alex probably won around or something, but it just didn't feel close to me. Is there any reason to, because I'm not, I'm never a fan of these automatic rematches like this. Like, if it was an epic war and it was a split decision and it's just like, man, you got robbed or boy, you got kind of squeaked away with one. Kind of like what happened with Leo de Machita

and Shogun back in day when Shogun clearly got robbed, they ran it back and Shogun knocked him out. that I understand but when it was not really a close fight I'm just like I don't love these automatic rematches because I don't know how much is going to change so you tell me mad like do you see anything playing out that different between Pereira and ankeliah this time or is it still Ancolaeus fight boy it's tough to see any differences man because Ancolaev if man if he does one thing well more than anything else he just keeps his position and he just stays steady strong and just you know it's hard

hard to just get him out of position, you know, and prayer is very good at getting people out of position, and he wasn't able to get Ankelaev out of position at all, you know. And I'm talking on the feet, right? Like usually when people think about a position, they kind of think of groundwork. But, you know, Ankylaev just stays so fundamental, man, and he doesn't try to kill you. He's not constantly looking for the finish. He's smart fighter. He's strategic. Takes his time. He's patient. I just I don't see him making that big mistake. Of course, if there's a split-second opening and Pereira lands, you know, it could be a different story. But also, again, Southpaws, that hook is a lot harder to land, you know, so it's not in Pereira's favor.

I don't see anything that should change. I'm very interested to see Pereira's tactics. excuse me to see if he kind of forces any change right kind of what his strategy is to pull a change out of Anka-Lyav and get him out of position or try to land that left hook I'm interested to see how he approaches this and I don't personally see you know where where that opening is going to be for him. You know, if I'm his coach in this situation, I think there's a lot of studying you're

going to have to do to try to find where that opening is, but in the amount that I've watched Anka Lai, I'm not seeing that opening for prayer here. Well, the thing is, scary thing about the last fight, Ankelyb didn't really get takedowns. Like, he used to clinch a lot, but he really would take prayer. So it's like, that was the one

thing everyone feared. Like, what if he takes him down? Well, we didn't get to really see that last time. So what if he does take him down this time? Like, you know, then maybe it's like even more off-sided and I think you can get mentally in your own head like everything kind of went wrong the last time out and I know Pereira's talked like oh I was at 40 percent or I didn't I understand there's always going to be that talk that chatter what went wrong you know everyone was worried about prayer was traveling he's all these shows he's down to Australia two weeks

before the fight and like what are you doing I'm not saying those aren't factors but I feel like you you can you can play in your head like oh I had everything against me because it kind of felt like that with the O'Malley Marabry match when O'Malley was like my hip was her I stopped smoking weed. I got my life cleaned up. Man, I'm so much more prepared. And he got the automatic rematch and then Marab beat him worse the second time around.

And it kind of feels like that a little bit more like prayers. Like I wasn't at my best. I was traveling, whatever. I'm going to go in and smoke this guy. And Ankelyev just got to do what he didn't eat. Ankylai didn't have his best performance the last time out. And he's still won. So it's like, to me, as you say, fighting an uphill battle.

And I think prayers got to take chances. He can't play it safe. Like go out and throw some freaking haymakers, throw some crazy spinning strikes, whatever. All the things we said kind of cost him in the Autosania rematch when he got knocked out. But like, you got to take some chances. If you just fight a clean fight,

Angola is going to push you against the cage. He's going to control you. He's going to beat you up a little bit. And you're going to be stuck there for 25 minutes. And you're probably not going to win. Well, the one thing, you know, that Alex kind of abandoned at some point in that first fight was the calf kick, you know.

And to be fair, you know, Echolive didn't react to it too much either. He didn't really change up anything, but prayer kind of just stopped throwing it. And I think that might be an opening there for him, you know, to kind of get back to that a little bit. But, you know, again, Ekelyev, he just, he's so fundamental, man. And, you know, I'm a big believer in that that is the way, right? That is the way to fight. That is what you need to be doing. and Anka Laiv does all the right things.

If I'm Ankelyev in this fight, I go out and take Pereira down round one, right? Take his mind out of the fight, get him on the defensive where you're down around and you need to find a way, put him his back in the corner, right? Where he's got to find a way to win the next round. Because, again, if Pereira, I think he needs to not worry about the knockout. think he may, I'm maybe right, maybe wrong here, but I think he might have got a little carried away with the hype and was kind of looking for that big shot against Ankelaev. And Ankaallia, again, staying so fundamental, just never opened that door for him. And again, with Southpaws,

that left hook is harder as a land against Southpaws. And I believe prayer has knocked out some Southpaws in glory with his left hook, but it's just simply a harder punch of land. So, you know, I think he's got a, you know, I don't necessarily agree that he needs to look for that big, you know, odd technique or spin or whatever. You know, I think he needs to just stay more consistent and strategize, you know, versus a Southpaw and stick to that strategy because it seemed to me in the first fight, he kind of did it for a little bit and kind of got away from it. My feeling was that he got away from it because of Ankylai's fundamentals or so.

good and he felt like it wasn't really affecting the fight, right? He kind of just abandoned feeling like it's not getting him anywhere. I think he needs to stick with those things to give himself a chance. Yeah, it's interesting because, like I said, I mean, one of the reasons I don't like these automatic rematches, is not only because you're like putting the guy who lost in the tough position, if he loses again, you know. Now he's in the bad spot, yeah. Now he's kind of like in No Man's like, kind of what you just did to O'Malley.

And O'Malley is still a star, but like, you know, him fighting, I think he's going to fight Song Yadong in December. Like, that's not the same magnitude as fighting for a title on pay-per-view-made events and things like that. So, and I think, and Pereira also, let's not forget Pereira 38. I think he's turned 39 soon. Like, he's got to be towards the tail end of his career. I know light heavyweights and heavyweights tend to fight a little longer, but, you know,

if he loses again and if he does end up losing in worse fashion, which I think is possible, because I don't think Angolae have had his best night the last time they fought. If he comes out and has his absolute best night, Pereira loses again, he really does kind of get stuck in purgatory again. I said it, I said this. We did a little roundtable article that came out today, and I said if Pereira wins, there's a world where he's like, I'm fighting John Jones to the White House.

And then I'll piss off Tom Aspinol and every other fan, but there's still a world. Like, if he can go out knockout Pereira, he could be like, I'm going to fight John Jones to the White House. That's still a massive fight. And John's not the champion now, so you can't hold it against John. He's not holding up a division by doing it. But it's like do or die.

If he loses, I mean, he's not going to retire. He doesn't have to retire. But, like, you know, he's back to just fighting dudes. Like, he's just back to being in the three-round, you know, maybe a main event on a fight night. But there's no, because the divisions are so thin right now. Like, heavyweight and heavyweight are not that deep. There's not, like, big, massive fights for him if he loses.

Like, he's going to fight Jan again? Is he going to fight, I don't know, Dominic Reyes? Like, are you going to be excited to see him fight Dominic Reyes? Like, you know what I mean? Like, what's out there for prayer if he loses? is if he wins, he could once again start pushing for heavyweight. You can say, I'm going to fight Tom, I'm going to fight John, I'm going to fight whoever. You lose, and you're kind of in no man's landing because there's not a lot of options for him.

And I feel like one of the differences, too, is a guy like O'Malley is a star partially because of, like, his personality and his social media and all this. Pereira was a star because he was just a feared fucking badass. And then when you lose, now you remove some of that fear. And I kind of wondered myself a little bit now that I'm thinking about it, I kind of forgot about. But I wondered if Angolaev didn't, you know, it's debatable whether he had his best night, right? You know, that's subjective, right? But I felt like maybe he was a little bit intimidated at first by prayer. Right.

I mean, we know what prayer is capable of. I mean, and rightfully so, like being intimidated, like nothing to be ashamed of to be intimidated by, Alex Pereira, right? So I wonder if that might have played a partner, and now he's going to come in with full confidence, and could go better or worse for him, too, right? That could be a good thing or a bad thing. But I think we're probably in agreement.

Like, I'm going to lean pretty heavily towards Anka-Live in this fight. I like that analogy, though, because it kind of reminds me a little bit of like Anderson-Silva. When Anderson lost to Chris Wyden at the first time, that mystique goes away. like it or not it does. Like when you just, when Anderson's out there,

like when he's letting Stefan Bonner hit him, he's just like against the cage, basically mocking him and then comes out, just knocks the piss out of him. Or Forrest Griffiths, he just ducking and dodging punches and Forrest can't come anywhere close and he just boop knocks him down.

There's such a mystique in an aura around Anderson Silva. It gets knocked out once, and suddenly that mystique kind of goes away and people are not over, because I live by the fact that people fought Anderson afraid. People went in there like,

oh my God, I'm fighting Anderson Silva. Holy shit. and, you know, Chale was, and then when, you know, Buster Douglas and, you know, obviously what, you know, I think Chelle, but Chelle Stylisley was a different style. Not everyone could wrestle like Chil Sondon, and he's still lost.

And then he got knocked out in the second one. Once Anderson got knocked out by Chris Weiband, that mystique goes away a little bit. And then be like, hold on, now I can hang with this dude. And you're right. Like, if Pereira, that mystique has gone a little bit, maybe Ankelyev's even better, because I think you're probably right.

Like, Angolive went in there early. Like, I got to be careful. This dude's got huge knockout power. And then as the rounds went on, he's like, I don't have to be afraid of this guy. I can beat him where I want to beat him. And yeah, you're right. That confidence can backfire. But that aura disappears.

When you stop doing what he did to Jamal Hill and Khalil Roundtree and Yuri Prakashu and all that goes away and you get beat, you're like, he's not, he's not, he's not, he's not. He's not the boogeyman I thought he was. Yeah, because it's going to be interesting. Again, we're not going to be able to read Ankalib's mind. but, you know, if he has all that confidence and then, you know, he takes a risk that he shouldn't take, right? And kind of, because maybe prayer wasn't at his best. Maybe he's telling the truth, right? Maybe he was a 40%.

So, you know, those things are always so subjective and hard to read and actually tell what the truth is in there. And I think every fighter probably feels like they didn't fight their best, no matter what the outcome was. I mean, you know, I've had knockouts in under a minute before and, you know, I walk out. Dude, that was not my best. Like, I could have done it in one punch like, you know, in 10 seconds. Like, what a fuck, you know? And then you get the one punch in 10 seconds and you're like, bro, you know, I could have. There's always something you could have done, you know, the better.

Like, I could have intimidated more, walked out better. I don't know. You know, it's just there's always something. So, you know, I don't necessarily mind that as a. as though what I what I like about that and then don't like but what the one thing I do like about it is like he's taking the blame for the loss right he's not saying you know my coaches didn't do this or or you know my fucking weight cut was bad whatever you know it's like he's just saying look I wasn't my best and I don't look at that so much as an excuse I guess you know I have a little bit more more leeway for that kind of reasoning when you lost. Well, and real quick, I'll say this, though. The flip side of that, though, is when you say that,

you absolutely could be right. But if you loses again, you got no excuse. Right. If you're like, I wasn't in my best, I was at 40%, I whatever. Okay, you may be 100% right. And you know what? Like, I've seen cases where guys who said that? Now you get to show us that you were 40% last time.

And if you lose again, then you can't come out and say, well, I was 60% this time. But I'll tell you, that that's what's so impressive about the guys who go on such long win streaks and stuff because, you know, nobody, it's pretty rare at least that, you know, someone comes out of a win and says, hey, I was only 40%, you know. But, you know, like when I fought Wonderboy, you know, he was undefeated and I think 64 wins or whatever. And one of the talking points that I constantly had was like, but he didn't fight anybody, you know, he's fighting these fucking karate nerds, you know, that probably did karate class and did forms all their life. and then he goes and knocks him out like cool all right but even with that said i would still in the back of my mind i never said out loud but i'm like bro the fact that he won 60 something like 64 times in a row like he showed up probably sick one of those times he probably showed up at 20

he had injuries different times bad weight cuts shit going on in his life whatever and still found a way to win even if he's better than the guy Like, that's impressive. And that's where even, you know, Floyd, you know, having a 50 and O record, you know, we could talk all day about, you know, he made guys fight on his terms, made them weigh, all these different things. But he showed up every time and found a way to win, even when, you know, things got tough. So it's an impressive thing.

And I got off on a little tangent there, but. The point is, you know, we're not always at 100%. So I don't know where I was going with it. You get the point. Can you be 100%? Can you be less than 100% win or can you be less than 100% lose? I think that goes back to like what we're talking about, Marab, like the run he's on.

Like, I remember talking to his coach after the UMR fight. And he's like, I almost pulled him out of the UMR fight because he was so messed up. And he's still found a way to win. Like that's, you know, like when Georgia St. Pierre was on that run, like he won defendant's title nine times. I'm quite sure one of those. he probably felt like shit or had an injury and he still found a way to win. I'm not blaming Pereira for saying he was a 40% or whatever, but okay, you said it.

Okay, I'm not, you're, you may be 100% right telling us the truth. You can't use that again. It's a one time, it's a one time use. You can't come out to this one and say, well, I had a banged up arm or had a banged up leg. No, you've already used it. So, you know. Yeah, and you like, you don't know what your opponent was that either. You know, you don't know what they were going through.

I'm not making issues for Angola. Let's not forget. They fought March right at the end to Ramadan. He had just literally come off Ramadan and that's like a time when Islam doesn't fight because I get it. You're on fasting for a month. You know what I mean? You got a very weird schedule and I know Balam

Mohammed's told me he did it but I think he even said like now he wouldn't do it again. Islam would like Islam Kabib the guys of Muslims who did that time like they don't fight during Ramadan or right around Ramadan because it's a lot of time to like go into that month of fasting and your entire schedule changes. And Anklea fought right after Ramadan. I think Ramadan ended and he fought

right after that. So like, I don't know that we saw Ankalite even near his vessel. I don't know. He's not made that excuse. He's not said that out loud. But like, I remember that. Like, dude, you're taking a fight at Ramadan? Like, that's the thing a lot of guys won't do. Yeah, facts, facts. Yeah. And that's, I think that's where people don't like hearing excuses, right? because, you know, it's like the best champions that we've ever seen, you know, you guys like Saitiv. You know, I think he went, you know, eight years or something without losing a wrestling match. It's like, bro, like, how many times was he, you know, sick or, you know, I vomited before, you know, he's wrestling? And, you know, that's why that's so impressive, you know, to go on these long runs.

because just because they got the skill is one thing, but being able to work through all those other aspects of a fight or of a competition, you know, it's a pretty impressive thing, particularly with individual sports, right? With team sports, you know, it's impressive, but I think it's a different world when you're talking about individual sports because it just comes down to you. And we all deal with tons of different things in our life.

And, you know, your bodies are funny. You can't predict them. it's pretty impressive thing. And I think that's where the whole, you know, we don't want to hear your excuses thing comes from, right? Yeah, well, I mean, look at John Jones. That's one of the reasons I hold him in such high regard. You can tell me all the day about steroids,

all this other kind of stuff. But I know, like during that 8 to, whatever remarkable insane run he went on, undefeated for all these years. I know, well, we know for a fact he didn't go to some of the spice 100%. And he still, we know, we know for Daniel Cormey, who's out, you know, doing a Coke binge, like three days before or whatever.

I know he wasn't at his bed. Now, that's self-inflicted, but still, like, to go do what he's done during his career. And I know there's nights where he came close to losing. We're going to have to raise, fight, we have to gust some fight. But still, we want that kind of run for that time period and still win and never lose. That's pretty freaking remarkable. Well, that's, it's interesting because he would try to make himself a bill, and excuses, what he says, right?

Like, he wanted an excuse to lose, you know, and Lord knows, you know, the types of things going through his mind where maybe just wanted the pressure off himself or, you know, feeling the insanity of the media and, you know, being a champion, the responsibility and the pressure. And he's like, man, fuck all this. Like, I just want to do cocaine, bro. Leave me alone. It's like, you know, it's an interesting psychology to think about, you know, when you're talking about just simply making a built-in excuse for yourself, but still going out there and

fucking getting it done. Like, what a fucking savage. man. Yeah, well, we'll see, man. Like I said, it's interesting. I'm with you, though. I'm leading in Anka-Live. I have a hard time here.

Ankelyab, kind of my picks for this weekend. And I think there's a reason why the buzz on his card's a little lower because I think a lot of people have that same expectation. There's not that feeling of like we're about to see, you know, upset here. I think after watching the first one, we're like, yeah, we're pretty confident in Ankelaev. And I think it's real hard to pick against Marab right now against anybody, not just Corey Sanagan. So we'll see. I know you're going to be in Houston next weekend. You got your seminar.

So you'll be back and catching some highlights and we'll break down the fights and everything after you get back. Where else can people check out what you got going on? I know you said you're doing your seminar next weekend down in, down in Texas. I'm the Immortal Instagram and Twitter, the Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. Love it. And we'll be back next week to break down everything that happens at UFC 320. I want to say big thank you to everyone that tunes in the show each and every week. Make sure to check us on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify,

and, of course, over on the best website in the world, MMA Fighting, For Matt Brown, I'm Damon Martin. We will see you guys next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Writer. Thanks for tuning in, and we will see you then. Unwap holiday magic at Holt Renfrew with gifts that say I know you. From festive and cozy fashion to Lux Beauty and Fragrant Sets, our special selection has something for every style and price point. Visit our Holtz holiday shop and store or online at Holtrenfrew.com.