MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reacts to Weidman Controversy + Most Interesting Fight at UFC 300, Need for More Weight Classes

Episode Date: April 2, 2024

The Fighter vs. The Writer returns with UFC legend Matt Brown and MMA Fighting senior reporter Damon Martin discussing the latest from the world of combat sports including a controversial ending at UFC Atlantic City where Chris Weidman finally got back on track but not without a pair of eye pokes that played a part in Bruno Silva’s demise. Brown explains that the real culprit in those fouls isn’t necessarily Weidman’s fault but rather something that the UFC needs to fix. We’ll also discuss our picks for the most interesting fight at UFC 300 with the card now less than two weeks away. Brown will also pitch his idea for more weight classes in the UFC with hopes that it could not only curb more extreme weight cutting but it could increase opportunities for fighters to compete across multiple divisions, which is what everyone seems to want to do these days! All that and more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two, ghosts in the machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprise his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster. The Downloaded, it's a thought-provoking sci-by journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, What are you willing to lose to save the ones you love?

The Downloaded 2. Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Why do you save and invest? Is it so you can spend hours every day glued to the stock ticker, worrying about every movement up or down? Or is it so that you can live a better, happier, more fulfilling life? Betterman wants to help people invest to live, not live to invest. With features like automated saving, global diversification, and tax smart tools, Betterment is full of ideas to help you reach your goals without having to babysit your investments.

They help their customers invest so that they can go live their lives. Go to Betterment.com to learn more. Investing involves risk, performance not guaranteed. network. To the fighter versus the rider, I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, you are freshly returned from Nashville, Tennessee, where one of your fighters got a big win down to LFA on Friday?

Yeah, well, he's actually fought in Louisville. Yeah, 4-0 now. So, yeah, he's a good up-and-comer named Josh Pereira, the Flying Hawaiian. And yeah, he's a great kid, man. I just love the kid. He's such a good member of the gym, helps out, teaches classes, helps with the kids, trains hard, does all the right thing. So I think he has a bright future.

What weight class is he? 125. Oh, wow. So you got a flyweight. Yes. How did they fly in Hawaiian end up in freaking Ohio of all places? You know, yeah, that's a good question. I've asked him before and he told me and I don't exactly remember.

I don't know if he moved here for his girlfriend or if they both ended. up here because she's like Filipino or something too. I think she's Filipino, yeah. So I think it was for his girl, though. I think that's what it was. But I don't know. Yeah. Either way, he's miserable in the cold here.

Yeah, that's a culture shock. Going from Hawaii to Ohio of all places. Yeah, yeah. Well, the winners do not treat them well. I can, have you been, you've been Hawaii, right? Once, yeah, a long time ago. Yeah, I've only been there once too, but I see the appeal. I was there for like five days for a Rumble in the Rock Show years ago with BJP.

And I do see the appeal of Hawaii, trust me. But I could see, like I was there for two weeks. I was there training with Matt Hume's coach at HMC. His name is Haru. And actually, you know what else was there was Satoshi Ishi. Oh, really? Yeah, he was there trained too. I met it was right when he first started doing MMA.

Oh, wow. Yeah, so that was pretty cool. But I didn't know who he was or anything. but I was like man this dude's a beast you know um but yeah I was there for like two weeks and I'll tell you what like I could island fever is a real thing like I don't know if I could live there man like that island gets small really quick yeah it's weird because like I was there for like I think I was there for like six days and it was gorgeous but like I think eventually like I feel like being so isolated would kind of get to me because like you literally can't leave like you have to

fly to leave the state basically. The long flight. Yeah, I think that would eventually get to me. Because I like, like, yeah, we live in Ohio, but I'm always like, you know, I could drive to Chicago. I can drive to Pittsburgh. I can drive to Nashville. I can, you know, I could go pretty much anywhere I want.

If I jump on a plane, I can go to L.A., New York, like, whatever. I'm within, you know, hop, skipping a jump. Like, I'm no further than five hours away on a flight from anywhere in the United States, basically, besides, like, Alaska and Hawaii. Like, we're a five-hour flight from here to L.A., you know what I mean? I mean, we're in a three-hour drive of a lot of major cities. I mean, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Lexington, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, what else? There's Detroit.

I mean, we're in a short drive to a lot of places. I mean, technically you're only like seven hours away from Toronto, like getting into Canada. Like, we're not that far from there. Six hours, yeah, six hours from Buffalo. Like, we're not that far. Nine hours to Newark if you want to drive to, like, New Jersey. That's a nine-hour drive. It's not bad.

I mean, like, you can do that. Yeah, seven, eight hours to Virginia Beach. Like, you can be at the beach, you know, by the end of the day. Yeah. So, like, that, I think that's what would get to me, like, that isolation of it because, like, it's gorgeous. It is gorgeous. I had a blast when I was there. I had, man, best fruit I've ever had my entire life in Hawaii, like, the freshest,

greatest fruit. But, yeah, I think I would feel a little isolated. Like, even though people like, oh, Ohio, like, you're not, like, on the coast or anything. I mean, yeah, but I can, like, it's a four-hour flight to Vegas, five, hour flight to LA. Like I'm not, you know, we're still very centrally located. Like I can get wherever I need to be fair. Hawaii's a four or five hour flight to LA too. So yeah. But that's also like that's how far away you are from that. It's like five, a five hour flight from LA. Right, right. Well, I mean, if you love the ocean, man, that's the spot to be, you know.

Yeah. It is the spot. One of the coolest experiences of my life was during that week, we were out there for Rumble and the Rock and we went to BJ Penn's family's beach house and they live like right on the beach and we were sitting at his beach house watching surfers and like giant waves like these massive massive waves in the ocean we were just sitting on his like back porch watching surfers in the ocean it was so cool like and they live like I mean you are you are no more than a hundred yards away from the from the ocean from where his family's beach house was it was so cool. No, that's funny you say that because when I was there, the same thing happened. We were the North Shore. Something had happened and there was these ridiculously big waves and within three

days there are people coming in from all over the world to surf these waves. Like it was something completely unexpected and these waves were gigantic and I mean there were like 40 foot waves if I remember right. I mean they were just ridiculously big people from all over the world. The whole North Shore was packed. I don't know how those people do those waves, man. Those are some crazy people there to do that stuff. You're a bit of a risk taker. Have you ever done surfing?

I mean, I've surfed, yeah. But I love surfing. I think it's awesome. But like four foot waves. Or like five foot or something. I mean, you know, these waves, I mean, you know, they're taking, they had to use jet skis to even get out there. They couldn't, you know, just swim out there.

That's wild. Yeah. I've never I've never actually gone surfing But it looks like fun I know a lot of people who do it say it's a blast But I you know I've not done it But yeah I'm definitely not doing it in fucking 40 foot waves

No no surfing's hard man It's really really hard It's a really good workout But yeah it's a blast though I do it in Costa Rica every time I go there That's what I love to go there for Nice nice yeah speaking of why We're getting close to 300 obviously in a couple weeks

We'll be doing it working on I'm working on a special UFC 300 preview show, so stay tuned for more details on that coming up for next week. But have you seen Eln Matured on social media? Have you seen Max Holloway's social media lately? Not really. I haven't. He's obviously balking up for his fight with Gaci.

And when I talked to Max right after the fight got made, I asked him more or less, like what's the biggest difference now doing this fight of Lightweight versus when you fought Dustin Poria? And he was very honest. He said when he fought Dustin Poree, he was basically a featherweight who just didn't, you know, didn't cut to featherway. Like he just, you know,

he just, I mean, he walks around bigger than 155, but he didn't, like, try to put it on size to be a lightweight.

He just basically weighed what he would normally weigh, and then he cut to 155. This time, he's like, I'm going to do it the right way and actually become a lightweight. If you look at his social media,

he's looking thick, man, he's like, he had some muscles. He looked a little bigger. I was like, damn, like Max Hallways looking big.

Nice. Well, I hope he keeps his endurance because that's definitely the game he's going to want to play against Gagey, right he doesn't want to try to go power for power with gaigi but you know if he out points him and you know puts that volume on him that's got to be his game plan right i think that's like you know

what i think about this i was looking at that card yesterday and i looked at it again the day before the podcast i think that might be the fight i'm most excited about gaici and holloway there's just so many unknowns and like geishy and holloway never put on a boring fight like between the two of them never put on a boring fight i think that might be the one i'm most excited about an entire card even though technically the stakes in that fight are kind of unknown because, yeah, like, Max could win, and then maybe he goes and fights Ilya Tepore at Featherweight. He wins, and maybe he becomes a player at lightweight, and we all know the rumors about Islam fighting Dustin's, like, even if Gaichi wins, he may not get a title shot right away.

But even though, like, we don't know what stakes are on that fight, like, I think that might be the one I'm most excited about. Because there's so many unknowns. Yeah, that could definitely be the wildest fight of the night. But I'd say what I'm the most excited for, and that's, Charles Oliver and Armis Sarukian because both those guys are so well-rounded and I'm man you talk about a fight where you don't know what's going to go down I mean Charles Oliver always puts on great fights right he could finish from anywhere anytime he's got amazing stand-up it's Ruky and

you know just an up-and-coming dog you know so that's the one that I'm looking forward to the most I'm really curious about that one too because when you look at Arm and even the fights that Armand lost. When he lost to Islam, which was, you know, he was basically's first fight in the UFC, took it on short notice and went in there and took Islam to a decision, which is insane when you think about it. And then he lost a real close decision

to Batush Gamrod, which was, you know, super, super close, great fight. But I'm trying to remember, like, I don't remember Armand ever really being in trouble in fights. Like, he's lost fights, but I don't remember him ever being in, like, man, he got close to being submitted, or man, he almost got knocked out, or he got hurt really badly. Like,

he's lost by points, more He hasn't really ever been stunned. And you think about what Olavera does. Like, he's just a damage machine. Like, he will absolutely put it on you striking, and then he will choke you out or he'll put you down the ground. You look at what he did to Benile Darius. Look what you did to Porre.

Look what you did to Gaci. I'm like, this is fascinating because no one's done that to Armin. Like, even Islam couldn't do that to Armin. Like, he had to basically outpoint Armin to beat him. Could Olavera damage him that way? That's fascinating to me. Well, like you said, Charles Oliver is a finishing machine. too. You know, Islam,

he's had a lot of finishes, but that's not really his thing, right? Like, you know, he's going to grind you out a lot and he's going to finish you that way. Charles Alvary finished you at any second. For me, personally, I'm a little biased. Charles is probably my favorite fighter to watch right now.

Maybe ever. Like, I love watching that guy fight. Again, like, you just never know what's going to come out. Like, he'll throw some wild submission. He'll throw a big hook. like he did with Chandler or elbows or clench. And, you know, he's, I just love watching the guy fight. So, um, watching Saruki and come up, man, I, this is going to be a wild fight.

You know that's going to go be a wild one. But like you said, G. Holloway, how's that not going to be a wild fight? But I just, I feel like that could also, the one thing that, that, about the Gage Holloway fights, I think it could end up being one-sided. Either way. Yeah. Yeah. It may not be as back and forth, I think, as, you know, as we expect.

Well, you know, it's funny. When you go back and watch the Porreux Halli-Holly fight, like, Porreux won the fight pretty handily, but it was still a great fight, you know, like, I can't remember the scorecards, but I want to say it was like 49-46. Like, it was, you know, there was no question, Dustin won. It wasn't like a split decision or anything like that, but it was still a battle. And I think that's kind of what I think Gachian Holloway could be. Like, you know, it may not be, you know, 48-47 split decision kind of deal,

but I think it'll be a battle. But yeah, like, it's definitely going to be a battle, but I think it could be like, like, you know, just one guy kind of dominating, right? But they're both going to stand in there and be tough. You know what I mean?

Like they're both world-class tough, sons of bitches. But I could see one guy just getting ahead and figuring out the other guy and kind of winning. You know what I mean? Well, I think that one, I would imagine, and maybe I'll be wrong, I don't think I'm going to be wrong,

but I would imagine that one's going to end up, being mostly a stand-up war. Like, Gachi, you know, Gachie doesn't, you know, Gachie doesn't wrestle, he can wrestle, he doesn't wrestle, and Holloway is not known for that either. With Surukin and Oliva, I can't say that. Like, I don't know where that's going to go anywhere. Yeah, that's what I love about. Could go anywhere.

Yeah, I can't say that's going to be a striking fighter. That's going to just be a grappling fight. Like, that literally could go anywhere. Yeah, exactly, exactly. That's kind of, maybe that's more what I'm saying. Like, I just don't know where that fight's going to go, how it's going to to turn out if it's on the feed, on the ground, you know, it's just going to be a wild fight. You know, and the biggest problem that I've noticed throughout my 20-plus years of watching

UFC fights is the more pumped you get for a card, the more it looks better on paper, the worst the card ends up being usually. Like all of the ones that we think are going to be the greatest fights don't turn out that way. And then the ones that we try to overlook or like we think this guy. is going to dominate. Those are the ones that end up being the dramatic, you know, insane fights. Like Adasanya Strickland, right? It turned out to be, you know, it wasn't, you know, a crazy fight or anything, but it was dramatic, you know. And we were so confident what's got,

what was going to happen. Yeah, it's funny because I think, like, I think that's what the UFC did when they made 300 because they're like, listen, we're not taking any chances. Because even if, let's say, let's say Pereira goes out there, knocks out Jamal Hill and two, minutes or vice versa. I think it could easily go either way where that fight lasts two and a half minutes. And I don't know that Zhang Wei and Yan, Jan, Jan, Nan, the Strawway fight is going to be like an epic war. It could be, but, you know, that

could be one where Zhang just goes out there and absolutely dominates for five rounds and wins a lopsided decision, but maybe it's not the most exciting fight in the world. But then you add on Gaichi and Holloway. You add on Olaver and Sauruque, and you got, you know, Al Jumain making his debut at Featherweight. You got Holly Holme and Kayla Harrison. You got, I mean, Sadiq Yusev and Diego Lopez is a great fight.

Jalen Turner and Hannaato Moikano is a great fight. Jim Miller, Bobby Green. Like, they made it so stacked that when it's all said and done, like, could there be a couple of stinkers in there? Could there be a couple that just don't really live up to the hype? Sure. I think the one I've pegged that I'm like, I think people need to like calm down on like how good this fight could be is the one between Yuri Perhoshka and Alexander

Rackich. I was about to mention that. As excited. As excited, but as exciting as Pahoshka has been, Rackichich is not. that dude. So like that could end up being like a pretty tactical fight, like not the drawn out war we're used to seeing from Yeri. So, but I think they're making it so stacked because like, okay, let's just say Yeri and Alexander Rackich isn't great. But then you get to roll right into Bo Nickel coming back or you get to wonder about how Al Jermaine's going to do a featherweight or

how is Kayla going to do a Bantway. So like there's just so many like different things like different directions you could go. If one fight isn't great, the next one will be. Yeah, that's what we're hoping for. And I'll tell you what the opener, Davidson, Guerrero and Figurato, however you say it, and Cody Garbrandt, that could be a shocker, too. I mean, I guess we could go on every fight and say that. Like, this could be the Dark Horse. There's no way in hell, I don't think, that we don't get two or three ridiculous fights on this card, right?

Yeah. There's just no way that we don't end up with a few legendary fights, epic fucking battles on this fight card. 100%. It's funny because we, like, I feel kind of bad because this card, this is. last weekend wasn't a bad card. And then this weekend, you know, Brandon Allen and Chris Curtis is a really fun fight. I talked to Brendan Allen a couple days ago.

I'm actually looking forward to that. But we're all kind of like, we all kind of have our eyes set on 300. You know, we kind of like, I feel kind of bad because like you have to be like the road bump to getting to 300. So it's like, you know, we're like this, the card in Atlantic City, the other night wasn't a bad card. Didn't play out exactly the way I thought it would. I thought, you know, Aaron Blancho would do better than she did. Mano Fiore looked incredible. She did a great job.

Wachin Buckley. I mean, who saw that coming? Him coming out doing that to Vicente Lucke the way he did on the ground. That was super impressive. And then I want to talk about it, Matt, because I think it's the one most people are talking about because there was so much controversy.

It was Chris Wyman. Coming back, looking great, by the way. Look great through the first two rounds. Really, I mean, he looked like his old self out there. Did not look like he hesitated. Didn't look like the leg was bothering me anymore. Didn't look like he was a 39-year-old guy just trying to get a win.

He looked great. But then disaster strikes. You look at the knockout. You're like, man, and listen, unless your last name is Silva and you're from Brazil, you were probably all feeling good to Chris Wyman got a knockout win in that third round. We're all like, man, good for you, good for you, Chris Wyatman. And then we see the replay and it's literally like three stooges, two fingers in the eyes. It's so unfortunate because there's no way that doesn't mar the win.

Like we'd all like to have this feel good moment for Chris Weidman, but there's no way to really have that knowing how it ended. that every bro I guarantee was sitting there watching that saying the same shit when are we going to fix these goddamn gloves we how many eye pokes are we going to have to see before we fucking fix these gloves what a lot I think a lot of people don't realize is the glove actually it's hard to make a fist with the glove that they have like when we're in the back warming up like we start stretching out the gloves before we put them on like that's what our corners are doing in the back for you're going to go good 30 minutes. They're stretching, pulling, twist in, you know, manipulating these gloves any way they can so it's easier to make a fist because they keep your fingers straight and to actually make a fist requires some energy. And that's the most ridiculous thing ever. Like can we just not fix this? This isn't even a complicated fucking problem. Like make it easy to make a fist. Like if you should have to force anything. It should be to force your hand

open. Yeah, you have to, so just, and by the way, I'm not saying, you're, you've been in the UFC for, you know, however long you've been. And I want to make it clear, like, I put on a UFC glove before. The way the UFC glove works, it's like, it almost like straightens your hand out. You have to, like, you have to flex it to, like,

close your hand. Like, it's basically like, that's how, am I describing that right? You have to basically flex your hand to close it versus, like, you're, you're, like, when you look at a boxing glove, a boxing glove is naturally shaped into a fist. A MMA, a UFC glove is naturally, like, fitted to wear your hands out, basically. Am I getting that right?

You are 100% right. And it's insane to me. Like, it has blown my mind forever that this wasn't fixed a long time ago. I mean, with all of the technology improvements and money and everything that they have. And this is, like, the last priority on the list. Like, this being bought without a fucking eye, you know, it's like, I. I guess, you know, it wasn't because of an eye poke, I guess. But, I mean, we've seen it.

How many eyepokes are we going to have to see before someone steps up and says, this is a problem, let's do something about it? So the answer, from my understanding, and I, was it, was it strike force? There was one promotion that did try it. They tried, like, the curved gloves, and everyone said it was better. Well, pride, I mean, they had the gloves where you're, so like the UFC glove, goes down, you know, so you have your knuckle and then, I mean, I don't know how to explain it, you know, where your knuckle, where your whole finger bends and then like halfway through, right,

the UFC glove only goes down about halfway in between, whereas a pride glove, like, went all the way down and it was already curved, right? It had a natural curve to it. So again, like, you had to force your hand out. And it wasn't like a hard force. Like you didn't have to like flex hard to open your hand, but you had to, you know, if you just completely relaxed your hand, your hand was basically in a fist. Yeah. And yeah, and I just, I can't for the life of me understand why this just hasn't been fixed. You know, I've always thought we should use like a smaller version of bag gloves, you know, where all the fingers are completely covered. Like, we don't need our fingers. You know, We need to be able to grab things, right?

You need your thumb open, right? So you can grab things to grapple. But you don't need all your fingers. Yeah. They could all be tied together, basically. You could cover the entire finger with a glove. And when you're forced to like, and I know this sounds weird to say this. And again, I want to make sure I'm saying this correctly.

When you're forced to basically flex to make a fist, your natural instinct is to let your hands go natural. Your hands are naturally out like this, like just straight out. Like, that's how you are relaxed. When you're gauging distance things like that, your hands are going to be out. Your fingers are going to be out. If the glove was curved and let's say your fingers were down in that motion, you'd have to physically push them up to get them out again. And that's not what we're talking about. Like, that's why eye pokes are so much easier because your hands are naturally forced out.

So when you're gauging distance, am I describing that right? You are. And when we're sparring, I mean, we're wearing boxing gloves 90% of the time. Some guys spar with him and make gloves, which I never spar stand up with them made gloves. I fucking hate it and I think it's stupid. But, you know, some guys do. But most of the time, like we're sparring with boxing gloves and our hands aren't used to having to work for that. You know what I mean?

Like it's not a natural intuition in our mind. So, you know, to when you're in a fight, like you're, you know, you're just doing, your body's just doing what's natural, what it's been taught. And it hasn't had to teach us. to keep its fingers close, its fist tight. Yeah, it's a problem. And, like, I want to be clear about this. Like, I don't think in any way, shape, or form is Chris Wybin a dirty fighter or anything like that?

Like, it's just a natural. Yeah, it's just a natural. That's just naturally. And when someone comes to, like, when you're pushing away, like, you don't push away with your fist unless it's, like, naturally that way. Like, you push away with your hand. That's just natural. Like, when someone's coming at you, kind of push away with your hand, and that's

going to happen. Like, I'm sure you've been eye poked in fights, and I'm sure you've eye poked people in I'm not sure you never do it intentionally, but that's just the nature of the business when you have those kind of gloves. Again, we spar all the time, like in big gloves, and yeah, you put your hand in their face, like all the time.

Like it's a common standard defense, you know, put your hand in their face, and you're not worried about poking their eyes, which is another reason I don't spar with little gloves, really at all. I mean, I've done it a little bit here and there, but I don't believe in it for that specific reason. I'm like, I don't need my eye poked out in training,

So, you know, we're going to do what we do in training. And if you're perfectly comfortable doing that in training every day, then it's going to happen in the fight. And now you got a glove that is, you know, just promoting you keeping your fingers open. Yeah. So really the answer to this whole question is they need to change the gloves. They need to give you this. So the answer is the curve gloves.

Is that kind of what we're talking about? I mean, there's, I think there's a lot of answers to it. I think there's different things they could try, but my thing is we haven't seen any effort put into it, right? Like, no one's really out there trying new gloves or, you know, putting out different things to address this issue. I don't think it's a complicated fix. I think you just make it like the pride glove, basically. Yeah. And that's like the unfortunate side about this all is, is like we should all be feeling good for Chris Wybman today because he came back from maybe the worst injury possible in this sport.

and he got a win. And I understand why we're talking about the weird way it all ended because, I mean, it's not Bruno Silva's fault that he got poked in the eye. And then, and I will say, like, I'm curious your thoughts on this, Matt, because afterwards, Chris had said, like, when you get poked in the eye, you shouldn't, like, roll over and, like, fall over. Like, it's a weird thing because I've been poked in the eye. I got poked in the eye doing jiu-jitsu.

And I got a pinky, like, literally in my eye. And it hurts so bad. and like I couldn't see for like three days. Like I ended up going to the eye doctor and I had to scratch on my cornea and I had to get eyedrops. I had to wear a patch for like three days because my eye was so messed up

but I got a finger in the eye. For people who don't like if you've never had a finger in the eye, it really sucks. So like I don't want to blame Bruno Silva for freaking out when he got a finger in each eye and he panics because it hurts. It freaking hurts.

Yeah. You know, I don't know. Like what's Chris Wyven's supposed to say too, right? I mean, is he supposed to say, you know, I didn't earn that. victory, right? So, you know, fair game to him. But you can't hate on Bruno Silva for doing exactly what he did. I don't care how tough you are. Like, there's a reason why that's the first move they teach in self-defense classes that don't work. Like, yeah, poke his eyes. He says like the weakest part

of your body, that in your nuts. Like, kick him in the nuts, poke him in the eyes. That's like, that's, you're a Cromagall black belt if you can do those two things. But there's a reason, right? Like, it fucking hurts and it sucks. And you can't, like, what are you supposed to do? Stand there with, you know, with no eyes and, you know, like, Chris Wyman knocked you out. It's like, of course, like, you're defenseless now.

You don't have eyes. Yeah, it's funny because it's like, it goes back to like, whenever they do the replay on growing shots, and you see it's like a glancing blow and they do it, they slow it down in, you know, super slow motion. You see it kind of glance. And they're like, oh, it didn't really get him. Get hit in the nuts at full.

full speed, even the glancing shot, it sucks ass. Like, there's no way around it. Like, I never, I never question low blows like that because, like, until you get it, you don't know. And slowing it down, it make it look like it only kind of sort of hit. Trust me, you don't need to hit, and that's very hard for it to hurt. That's a fact. I mean, just, you know, wave your hand across your dick.

And just see how close you get before you start feeling it. Like it doesn't take much, bro. You can flick your dick and it hurts. But that's, with the eye pokes, though, like, I think, and I want it, because again, you're a fighter. I need your expertise on this. So ultimately, like, and again, I know this isn't every single case because there have been some egregious eyepokes.

I think we've seen that. But it's rare. And Chris Wyman's been around forever. He's the champion who he's doing. This really comes down to the gloves, is what we're saying. Like, that's really the culprit to blame here is the glove, not that Chris Wyman did something horribly wrong. Did you know all we want to see is a fair fight, right?

Like that's what UFC's supposed to be as real as it gets, but it's a fair fight. And, you know, that's what no one wants to see a fucking victory that way. And it shouldn't have been a victory. I mean, it should have been a no contest. I don't think anybody's going to disagree on that. I mean, let them run it back in a couple weeks or a couple months or whatever and do it again. But, you know, like just terrible reference. all night I felt like I think everybody felt like I mean it just it seemed like one mistake after

another just terrible refing and I I respect the ref job how hard it is and everything but oh excuse me my god I mean just nothing seemed to go right for the refs last night there were a lot of early stoppages too like I got like that bill algio fight like he was still standing I know he was hurt but he wasn't like out and I've kind of come around to your way at thinking like I'm not saying the guy has to get murdered, but like at least let him go out on his shield. Like he was still up on his feet and he had just recovered a minute ago. Like how do you not let it go in her 30 seconds just see if he can make it?

Like I didn't really see anybody tweeting about the Buckley-Luke 5. I thought that was early too. I mean, Buckley was throwing a lot of shots and I don't know what Lucke was doing exactly why he just kind of, you know, tried to play a high guard defense there. But he wasn't hurt. Yeah.

He got right up. He didn't really complain either. so, you know, fair game, but like, I didn't see any reason to stop that fight at all. You know, if Luke A wants out,

like tap out. Yeah, it's weird. I think, like, when guys get, like, when a guy gets flattened out on his stomach,

like, you go to a mountain, you roll over, you got flattened on their stomach and they're just, like, covering up. And you're,

you know, you're not, like, hurting them necessarily, but you're just wailing on them and they're not doing anything to get out of it. I get that because he's just stuck,

and you're just stuck. He was in guard, basically, like half guard and like Buckley was swinging hard like he was absolutely swinging hard but he was hitting his hands more or less he was sitting hands yeah so like it was a lot and i mean i think to me i think luke is just too good of a sport to like complain about it you know i think that's just who luke is and again this isn't buckley's fault by the way none of this is walking buckley's fault but like luckily did the right thing he got the stoppage yeah and a lot of reps would

have stopped i think some would not have you when we look i i i never forget the um showgun hinder and, right, you could have stopped that fight five times. Neil Magny, Hector Lombard, could have stopped that fight 10 times, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, I like to see these guys get a chance. Yeah, it was a weird night of refing, and, yeah, I think, again, I think that the Wyman fights the problem, and, like, the fact that, like, they see, why do we create instant replay if we're not going to use it? Like, right, like, why didn't they take a point from Chris Wyman? So, even if they go to the scorecards, like, they should have taken a point.

in which case now it's a I guess a draw right yeah but I mean like generally speaking in the way I think as the way you think is it should have been in no contest like I'm certainly not trying to take away a win from Chris Wybin again I don't think he did it intentionally but the eye pox or what led like he like when you watch the replay he got an eye a finger each one of the eyes now it's one thing to get poked in one eye he got poked in both eyes so he he reacts to it and falls over because it freaking hurts and then he gets wailed on by punches and they stop it okay, you can't restart the fight. I get that.

That's part of the sport. Fights over. But you replay it. You see the iPokes led to that. It reminds me a little bit of the Dustin Poirier, Eddie Alvarez, when Eddie Alvarez, like, had Dustin down and he blasted him with a couple of knees, and he was clearly down.

Like, there was no doubt about it. He was down. And they call it a no contest versus a DQ. Like, some of these weird decisions, like, why is that at no contest when Dustin was clearly down? Like, there was no quite, it wasn't like he was playing the one. hand thing. Like he was down on the mat and Eddie blast him with a knee. That's a no contest.

But what happened on Saturday, a guy gets two, two fingers in the eyes and that's a, that you go to the judge's scorecards? Like what? What? Right. And again, even if you want to go to the judge's scorecards, it was fine. But like, you're not going to take a point from Chris Wyman. He already poked him in the eye once or twice before. I mean, I think twice before. Yeah, now twice before. Yeah, twice. It's like, okay, well, you got to take a point now. you know it probably should have the second time i think that should be you know pretty standard as a second time but um you know maybe even the first time at this point you know it's like it's like what do you got the rules for if you're not going to enforce them i get i i do

i tweet a lot about the referees when they don't do that and i understand in a three-round fight one point can make the difference between winning and losing i get that and i understand how dire that is, but why are their rules and why are their fouls if you're not going to use them? Like, if a guy can just go out there and get punted in the balls three times in a fight, you're not going to take a point away. Like, I joke, and I say

this all the time, I joke, but I say like, if you're a UFC fighter, your first offensive move in every fight should be walking across the octagon and literally punting your opponent in the balls. Because, A, if you've ever been hitting the balls really, really hard, you generally, even

if you start to fight again, you're not 100 because it still reverberates. Like, it still hurts. No matter how much you have five minutes to recover, it still hurts. You get it really hard in the balls. And no one ever gets penalized on the first shot ever. I'm saying, you can walk out and literally kick a field goal in the balls and no one seems to care. Dude, it's a running theme in every gym you go to.

Like, if you get hit in the nuts or something, you know, they'll be like, oh, you get everybody gets one morning, you know. It's like a standard thing. Like, everybody knows it. Like, we get a warning. I mean, I've thought, I've never actually done this, but I've thought about it before. Like, dude, if I was to get real tired in a fight, they kick the dude in the balls. Give me 30 seconds to recover, you know? Yeah.

It's like, you know, you can't open up the doors for those kinds of gaming the system type things that we're talking about. You know, most guys just aren't dirty like that, right? We want to go out there. We want to fight. We want to win fair. And we want to, you know, show dominance. We don't want to game the system. But the door is open for it.

Yeah, well, and it's like with Wyman, like you said, like what's why I've been supposed to say? Like, you know, like, oh, I didn't really win. I get it. But like, as the eyepokes are on him, but like, it's also the responsibility of the referee and the cage side people watching the fight to make the, like, he didn't tell them to give him to win. He didn't tell them to score the fight and give him a decision when they made that decision. Well, that's what blows me away. How many motherfuckers are around there and not one of them stepped up like, hey, you know, you know, like this ain't the way it's supposed to be done you dummies you know like who's in charge of this

shit i don't know yeah it's just it's unfortunate because again there's not a person on earth not named silver or maybe from Brazil who wasn't rooting for chris wyman to win and he looked good he had a good performance up to that point but then to have it in that way there's no way it doesn't walk away there's a bit of a black mark on it because the eye poke ended it not the punches like two fingers in the eyes because i was looking for it forward to that third round. You know, the second round, Bruno kind of started picking it up, and I thought it was a close second round. I thought it could have, apparently they'd scored it for Chris Wyman, but I could have seen it going for Bruno Silva, I guess, except for like the last

10 seconds, Wyman heard it pretty good, probably won the round there. But it was a close round, and I was excited to see what happened in the third round. I was like, dude, Bruno has a, as good as Wyman was looking, like he wasn't dominating the shit out of Bruno Silva. Like, It was a close fight. It was, but I also want to give you credit because when Chris lost to Brad Tavares last year, even I was kind of like, man, I don't know if I want to see Chris keep going because I just don't want to see the guy, like, get hurt, you know, like he did not look good in that fight. He looked kind of, you know, and he said it afterwards.

He couldn't pull the trigger. He was struggling to, like, throw the kicks, and then Brad kicked his leg off and he broke the other leg. And it was just like one thing when he was like going from bad to worse in that fight. And you said at that time, even last August, you said, no, Chris should stick around. he still got, you know, he still got some fight left to tank, you know, go back out there and do your thing again, and you were right. Like, he looked way better in the second fight. He just needed to, he needed to get that, he needed to get those nerves out. And he said that.

Like, he was nervous. Like, he just, he, he's like, I wanted to throw the kick. My brain wouldn't allow me to do it. And this time, he looked good. Well, that's one of the tough things about the UFC, you know, when we compare it to, say, boxing, you know, if a boxer went through a severe injury like that off for that amount of time, he's come back to a tune-up fight. Well, Brad Tavares may have been meant to be a tune-up fight, but Brad Tavares is no tune-up fight. You know, like, Brad Tavars is a tough motherfucker that could beat anybody in that division on any given day. He's been around for a long time, and we kind of know that he's maybe not as consistent as he would like to be, right?

Sometimes he kind of doesn't show up or, you know, makes a big mistake in a fight sometimes. But when he's on point, like, he's one of the best of the world. So that's not a tune-up fight. And so, you know, the reason I said is, like, you can't take the credit away from Tavares in that fight. You know, Wydenman may not have been running on all eight cylinders. But even if he was, like, Tavares is still not an easy fight. Yeah, no, I 100% agree. And there's no, like...

Support for this show comes from Chase. If you're a fan of women's sports, you're always looking for ways to get closer to the action. and your Chase card can get you exactly that. With a Chase card, you can experience more. That means access to presales, preferred seating, and more savings. For more information about how to step into a world of more with Chase experiences, visit chase.com slash experiences. Benefits available only to eligible Chase card holders,

deposit and credit card products provided by JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A. Member FDIC. Terms, conditions, restrictions, and limitations apply. Defenders and cybersecurity are always there when we need them. They should get a parade every time they block a novel threat and have streets, sandwiches, and babies named in their honor. But most of all, they deserve AI cybersecurity that can stop novel threats before they become breaches across email, clouds, networks, and more. DarkTrace is the cybersecurity defenders deserve

and the one they need to defend beyond. Visit darktrace.com forward slash defenders for more information. We're talking about like Connor, not to get on the Connor subject too much, but like Connor coming back from the broken leg. And if he does end up fighting in June, as the rumors are saying he will, the international fight week card, like he's not coming back against some no-name, easy lightweight that he's just going to beat up. He's fighting Michael Chandler.

And Michael Chandler for as good or bad as you think he is, he is still a dangerous dude. Like, is Michael Chandler the best guy in the world? No. Is he still a top 10 lightweight? Yes. Is he still dangerous? Yes. Is he still a hard matchup for anything?

anybody in that, like, has anyone walked away from a Michael Chandler fight not been beaten up a little bit? Like, he beat up Dustin. He beat up Justin. He beat up Charles. They won, but they didn't walk away on Skades. So, like, if Connor comes back and fights Chandler on day one, like, he's not getting a walkover. Like, they're not giving a fight that he's supposed to win. No, that's exactly.

You have to go through a fire to beat Michael Chandler. And those guys you just mentioned, they walk through a fucking firestorm, right? like they they're just those guys you know like this is the wrong guys for michael chandler right just bad matchups like guys that can walk through that fire we don't know if connor has that in him still and that's all it comes down to and you know if i hear another motherfucker you know say about us talking about Connor again i'm i'm gonna slap him but it's a relevant subject well no i just and that's what i'm not center trying to start the subject but yeah i mean that's like with wide been like there's no coming to you know coming up

back and just getting an easy fight. Like you don't get a tune up fighting the UFC. So that's why I think that's why I think that particular injury, the leg break. And we've only had it a couple of times with Wyman, Anderson, and now Connor that like one of the reasons why it's so difficult is because you don't get to warm up. You don't get to like go in there and like get to work the rust out against some bum, you know, and you're just kind of feeling getting back in there. Like you're going in there against a freaking world champion.

Like a guy who's a killer. And so there's no like, you know, Gary. guaranteed win here. And I understand with Connor, you know, you're not going to pay him $10 million to fight some no-name guy that he's just going to run through. But yeah, like credit to like Wyman had a tough test in Tavares and his credit if he does end up fighting Michael Chandler. Like that's not an easy fight. That's not a guaranteed win. I mean, there's no reason not to, in my opinion, you know, pay Connor $10 million to run through some nobody. Give that guy an opportunity to make something against, uh, Connor, you know. I mean, you know, and ideally you put them in there with a tune-up, you know, a match that Connor's supposed to win. But, you know, it also gives another guy a good opportunity. So, you know, I don't see anything wrong with that myself. I think that's, you know, probably the proper way, you know, if you're trying to build stars, that's what you need to do with them. Yeah, that's just not how the UFC does it, though. And you know, I know that. They're just,

they're not done out about that. And again, you know, to their credit, like, you know, they're not, I think UFC, if UFC was going to have a motto at the UFC at sink or swim, because you don't get, like, no one just gets fights they're supposed to win. Like, I mean, you consider and say, like, Bo Nickel is supposed to beat Cody Brundage. Like, that's a fight that we all look at and say, that's a fight Bo Nickle is supposed to win. They're sitting up victory. But you're also remembering that even though Bo Nickel is a massive, massive favorite, he's also four fights in his career. Like, there's still a lot of unknowns about Meldickieck. We haven't even seen Bo Nickel get hit yet.

Like what happens if Cody Brundage clocks him with a right hook and he freaks out in panics and can't recover? Like, while I do understand why Bo Nicol is a huge, huge favorite over Cody Brundage, there's a reason why they're bringing him along a little slower and they're not throwing him into the wolves yet. They're not giving fucking Jared Canaan ear right now because he's not at that level yet. You got, like, he's four fights. He spent less than, like, I think he spent less than one round total in his entire career. Like, how are you going to throw that guy in against top 15 competition? Like, yes, I understand he's going to be a big favor to meet Cody Brundage, just like he was his last couple of fights.

But you got to let the guy warm, like learn what he's doing in there. Like, you know, like, it's not fair to throw him in there with like, you know, Paulo Costa or Robert Whitaker. That's insane. Yeah, well, it seems like the way that the UFC kind operates from my perspective is, you know, when they're building you up, yeah, you do get, you know, sometimes you get favorable matchups. No, excuse me.

You know, some guys, you know, know to get to a title shot like i think shot o'malley probably got more favorable matchups to get to a title shot um carter mcgregor got fairly favorable matchups you know for the most part not not 100 like hose outos no fucking favorable matchup for anyone um you know that i think that right because i picked jose to beat him many years ago and still owe you money for it but but you know they they will do that on the way up but like once you're a champion it seems seems like, you know, it's over now. Like you're not fighting anybody out of the top 10.

And every division in the top 10 are just absolute killers. Except for, I guess, maybe some of the women's divisions aren't really so hot. But, you know, in all the men's divisions, the top 10, there's no such thing as an easy fight top 10 UFC. There's not. It really is. I agree with you. I think like women's bansomweight, we could probably cut it down like a top five. I think that'd probably be enough right now.

Yeah, yeah, it is what it is, you know. Yeah. But that's, you know, that's the way the UFC's kind of always, and I get it, you know, like they want an A side and, you know, something for a B side. They don't want a C side or a D side, right? Well, I mean, think about it. They want a B side. Thinking about this, we talked about a couple weeks ago when Sean Amalley beat Cheetah Vera.

And, you know, you and I both picked Sean Amalley to win that fight. and Sean O'Malley was a favorite. And afterwards, everyone's saying, man, Cheeto shouldn't have been in there. I heard a lot of people picking Cheetah Vera in that fight. It was not a one-way traffic of everyone picking Sean O'Malley. So you can't sit here in retrospect and say, oh, he had no chance.

A lot of people picked Cheetah Vera to win that fight. So even that fight, which on paper didn't make all the sense of the world because Cheeto really didn't earn it. But even at that, people were still like, I think Cheeto's going to get it done. He's dangerous. He's got heavy hands, blah, blah, blah. So the UFC is typically not.

in the business of making fights that are not at least going to be somewhat competitive. And even if even like that, you know, like there's, there's so many of those fights where people are like, oh, it's a blowout, but then come fight time, they're like, well, this guy's got a pretty good chance. Right. There's so few blowouts in the UFC, really. You know, there's more like crazy things that happen, like Connor knocking out Jose quick, right?

But like that fight is not a blowout. it was a blowout one time, you know, in that specific moment. They fight 10 times. It's not a blowout 10 times. My favorite of all time is everyone in retrospect saying that they knew Holly Holm was going to dominate and kill Ronda Rousey. And I'm like, I wish I could go back in time and remember all the people who said that Ronda was going to kill Holly at the time. Like, there were people picking Holly. But by and listen.

I don't know if you remember. I picked Holly. You did pick Holly. But I'm saying like at that time, Ronda was on such a high. Like the majority of people were still riding with Ronda is what I'm saying. Like there wasn't like this overwhelming feeling that Ronda was just going to get torched by Holly Holm. You know what I mean? You could look back and say, oh my God, it was a mismatch.

Holly was that much better, blah, blah, blah. But in reality at the time, almost everyone thought Ronda was almost everyone thought Ronda was untouchable. And certainly that wasn't true. But yeah, you can't, you know, every fight, like every fight is even to a certain extent. Like, I'm not saying that I would pick Cody. That's the nature of this sport, bro. When you look at, when you look at boxing, like, it's way easier to make tune-up fights. Like, Strickland could have been a tune-up fight for Adasanya, right?

Like, he could have, like, if he just wanted a tune-up fight, yeah, give me Sean Strickland. That's a tune-up fight for me. And then, like, this sport is different, man. There is a gigantic difference in this sport from any other sport in the world. There's no such thing as a tune up fight. The number 25 guy, for the most part, not always, but the number 25 guy could beat the champion on certain days. You know, like Bo Nickel could be beat the champion right now, right,

if it's the right champion. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it would be the right one, right? You know, not necessarily the who's a champion. Well, who's a champion now? It doesn't matter. but you know matchups matter a lot in this game

absolutely yeah dracus is the middleweight champion right now so like that would be I said it like I've been super high on bo-nickel and again I'm a wrestling guy so I've been super high on bo-nickel the entire time but yeah like bow-nickle has that skill when you look at middle-weight there aren't a lot of great wrestlers at middle-weight now homzot's there now and so I guess that would be a little different

because homzot is legitimately a good wrestler but when you looked at the majority of wrestling when you looked at the majority of the middle-weight division there weren't a lot of wrestlers of Bo Nickel right away has an advantage over a lot of guys that hypothetically he shouldn't be in there with, but because he has that wrestling, he can even the score a little bit with that. And so you can't sit here and say like Bo Nickel couldn't beat that guy or this guy because he has that weapon. Now, because you do that at lightweight or a welterweight where there's a lot better wrestlers,

when you have guys like Usman or even like an Islam or, you know, you go down the line of guys like that, be a lot harder for a guy to come in as a wrestler and just go in and do that because there's already great wrestlers. middleway was a little more wide open so again it's about matchups it's all about the matchup and that's this sport is crazy everybody at the top has an x-factor right they all they all got something that if you end up in that part of their game like you're probably getting fucked up right like alice perr had his left hook right bow nichols got his wrestling you know i mean everybody's got that little something um you just have to stay out of that and that and that's And that's what this game comes down to, is imposing your will on your opponent,

you know, not playing their game and you pulling them into your game. And, you know, and that's why the, that's why I said, like, the number 25 guy has some X factor, right? He's got some move. It might even be an odd ball move, right? Like, Ryan Hall, you know, he, like, if he gets a hold of your leg, like, I don't really care who you are. Like, he could go up in weight classes and, like, he could tap out Alex Perlux. Carrera with a leg lock. You know what I mean?

If Alex makes that mistake and slips his foot in there on accident, Ryan Hall is all of a sudden a fucking, you know, 205 pound champion. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Now, I got, before we get out of here, Matt, I got to throw out this question because this is, we're talking about like the best, like, the possibility of the greats losing to other fighters is not as, not as, not as unpredictable as we might think it is,

because anything can happen in the sport. But I don't know if you saw this. This past week, George St. Pierre was on Kamar Usman's podcast, and they were obviously talking about his career, and they brought up the Kabib fight, the legendary Kabib fight. And George said he was pretty, you know, he gave credit where credit's doing. He said, you know, on any given night, you know, he could beat me, I could beat him. But he thinks that his style he would have beaten Kabibah,

had they done that dream fight that never actually happened. Now, to be fair, we're never going to see it. They're both way retired. Ain't going to happen. this is all hypothetical, this is just you and I talking, what do we think? We never got to see that. We never got to see Tony and Khabib either, but we never got to see GSP and KBeeb. But I'm curious, Matt, because you were a guy, I remember when George was talking about coming back,

he said, hey, I'll be Georgia's comeback fight. Like, you volunteered your services at that point. And I know that Khabib was technically a lightweight. But I'm curious, like, if they had fought at their peaks, not now, like, you know, when George was on top of the world and Kibib was, and they were never at the same time. Let's be clear about that. like kabeeb came later than George when he was at his peak but after peaks who would have won that fight who do you think would have won george or kabee gsp think so why i think he'd be able to keep it on the

feet i don't think he'd be able to take him down and or keep him down and i think gs p would jab him you know outstrike him on the feet pretty easily it's funny because george always talked about how he was not the biggest welterweight in the world but when i saw him stand him standing ending next to other welterweight. Yeah, he talks like that. Like, he liked to talk like he wasn't the biggest welterweight in the world. George was a thick dude. Like, George was not a small guy.

No, yeah. I think he was, like, reminiscing in his high school years when he can make 55 or something. I could do it again, you know? Yeah. He's like, no, brother, that was like 15 years ago. Come on. Yeah, I tend to agree because, like, I think in this sport, I don't know if anyone ever had a better blast double-leg take down than Josh Koshchek

in his day. And you remember that fight with Josh and GSP, and he just, I mean, he broke his orbital with the jab. It's all he did, he threw a jab all night long and Josh couldn't come anywhere near him. Now, I'm not saying that Khabib wasn't a better fight than Josh Koshchak, I think overall, of course he was, but also Josh was a natural Welterweight.

Kabe wasn't. I know Kabeb always talked about going up to Welterway, but he was a lightweight. He was legitimately a lightweight fighter. He would have been given up size. He would have been given up speed. He would have been given up, you know, height. He would have been given up a lot of stuff

to go up to Weltaway and find a guy like George St. Pierre. Now, you will not find a bigger Khabibna Magu Madov fan than me in terms of like who is the greatest lightweight of all time. But, you know, it's just like, I thought Anderson Silva was the goat of his era. But if he would have gone up to 205 about John Jones, he would have gotten massacred. Like, that would not have been a good fight for Anderson. I love Anderson. But John Jones would have taken him down an elbow his head to the mat.

Like, there's just certain things. I'm not saying that George would have knocked out Khabi, and it would have been a blow out, but what you're saying is exactly what I think would have happened. He would have jabbed him and he would not have allowed him to take him down. Yeah, that's what I think. And I think Anderson would have a good chance, actually, if he moved up 205 against John Jones

if John Jones made the mistake of not taking him down an elbow in his face. Because Anderson in his prime could have stood with anybody, including John Jones. He could have. Yeah, but I think John's smarter than that. But again, that's where it comes down to matchups and

your strategy and how you're going to, you know, go about doing things, you know, it's not, you know, when you get to that level, again, everybody's got their X factor, right? Anderson had his X factor, and if John played into it, and we know that John, too, you know, he was a, or is a proud guy, you know what I mean? Like, like, I can see him, you know, be impatient, not rushing for that take down. And it would give Anderson opportunities. It would, but I just think, you know, And I think the jump from middleweight. I agree with you, too.

Like, I'm not disagreeing. Yeah, yeah, I just think, like, but I think that's what I'm saying, like, in general. Like, can it happen? Yeah, it's happened. We've seen guys go up in weight classes and find success and become champions. But just like anything else, it's about matchups. It's about timing. It's about who's there.

Like, you know what I mean? Like, Robert Whitaker, we forget he fought a welterway. Like, he was a welter way for the first part of his career in the UFC. And they moved to middleway, and he's been such a great middleway. We kind of forgot he was ever a welterway. But we didn't forget. to Kelvin Gasselm, like he had success in middleweight, but he was never a big guy, and that eventually caught up to him.

Hoffield dos ano, same way. He came in, had a couple good wins of welterweight, but he was never really a welterweight. Like, he was always undersized, and he struggled with that when guys were bigger, stronger, heavier, things like that. So weight classes exist for a reason. Now, can guys become phenomenons and go up and down and wait and do great things? Absolutely, you can't do that. But it's hard.

It's difficult. Well, it's extra hard. in this sport too because the weight classes are so far apart you know you see that in boxing a lot more where guys can work their way into weight classes when they only got to move up for six pounds you know and it's like when you got to move up 15 pounds like from 170 to 185 that is a gigantic jump because now you're not you know if you're walking around at 185 like you're probably cutting to 170 but now you got to walk around at 205 to cut to 185 yeah like that's hard to do you know like that's hard to do for a lot of people. Like, that's why I never went to 185 because, like, I got to be fat to

get, like, 200, like I am, like I am right now. But, you know, like, I couldn't just bulk my way up there. Like, you can't do the amount of cardio necessary for the sport and bulk up. And that's where I get worried about guys like Max Holloway balking up. It's like, because he's a cardio guy. And again, I think that's really his, um, one of his best. chances against Justin Gagey is using that cardio advantage, putting a lot of volume on them. And that's kind of what I was alluding to when I said, you know, that bulk, I'm not, I don't know if I like it. You know what I mean?

Because like you don't want to trade power for power with Justin Gagey, right? Like that's not a good game plan to go in there with like you need to keep the volume on them. And size isn't going to help you put more volume on them. Yeah. No, you're right. You're absolutely right. Like I said, it's a weird thing for all the success we've seen guys have recently in recent years of, like, moving up divisions.

And, you know, we've seen a lot of two-division champions and things like that. But, again, it also depends on the division. Like, we've seen it traditionally be a lot easier for light heavyweights to go up to heavyweight because the greatest heavyweights in the history of sport aren't the biggest guys. Like, when you look at Fedor, he was a 230, 240-pound guy. Steepa's 230, 240. Two-40. Like they were not 280 pound, you know, like, yeah, there's the Brock Lezors of the world who were that big, but what happened when Brock fought Kane? He got absolutely fucking demolished.

Like, yeah, most of the 205ers are walking around 220, 2.30 anyway. They're just cutting 905. Like, everyone kind of mocked John because he looked like a little pudgy on the scale. I'm like, that's just because he's not really a heavyweight. Like, that's not really his weight class, but he's so damn good that he can do it. Like, he can absolutely do it. Like, that's just how good that guy is. but he's not naturally, he's naturally a 205 pounder.

Like, that's his actual weight class is 205 pounds. But, you know, he packs on a couple extra pounds and some muscle, and he's so skilled that he can be a heavyweight. But he's not a natural heavyweight. Like, he's not Brock Lesnar, where he would have to literally lop off a leg to make 205. I know, I know. I'd like to see him have more weight classes. I would.

I think I get why they don't do it. I get why they hate that about boxing. There's so many weight classes with so many different champions. So I totally get it. But I think it makes more sense to have more weight classes. So every other combat sport has more weight classes. Wrestling and jujitsu and boxing, kickboxing. They all have, you know, five, six pound differentials between weight classes.

Only MMAs is the only one that doesn't. So, you know, so you got guys, say they're walking around 180. Like I used to walk around 180 and I was like, there's no. way I could ever make 55. Yeah. But I'm too undersized for 185, obviously. So now I got a cut to 170, but, you know, it's not like you want to cut weight. You know what I mean?

So it wasn't a tough weight cut, but, you know, it puts you in an awkward spot, right? Like a 175 would have been perfect. So do you think, like, do you think the 10-pound difference would be the way to go? 125, 135, 135, 145, 155, 165, 175, 175, 175, 105, 105, 105, 205 at heavyweight. Would that kind of be the ideal weight classes? I think it would be a great start. And then, you know, as they build the sport more and more and have more fighters, I think every five pounds would be, you know, a perfect world.

Yeah. I get it. Like, I understand why they don't do it because, like, what Dana says, it waters down the product. And I understand, like, part of the, it's funny. Whenever I do a boxing article and I write about a great boxer, I almost automatically write a multi-division champion because it's so common in boxing for guys to have nine titles because, and technically they're only fighting between like 150, 1605 pounds. Like that's one weight class in MMA, but that's like four weight classes in boxing. So they've won like four different titles because they've jumped up and, you know, a difference of like three pounds or whatever. I get it.

And I do understand the confusion of that because like even now, even as I've gotten more. involved in boxing, I still don't know the boxing weight classes. I know the names. I don't know the weight classes. I don't know who's actually a middleweight versus who's a welterweight and what does welterweight mean in boxing. I just know Canello's this guy and Dimitri Bibble's this guy and David David Benavita's this guy.

I couldn't begin to tell you what actual weights they normally compete at. Yeah. And then they got like super middleweight and junior and welterweight, you know, and all these extra names on it. So I totally get it. Like I'm not saying that that is the way to go. But I do think that, you know, it makes it, I think it would saffing up the sport. We talk about weight cutting all the time.

I mean, again, like I was in a situation where, you know, I'm walking around 180 to 183, 184. So now I'm basically forced to cut, you know, 10 pounds, 10, 12 pounds, right? Like, it's not like you really don't have a choice, you know, like. You don't want to be walking around, like when I was on the Ultimate Fighter show, you know, I didn't even have to skip a meal to make weight at 185. And, you know, but I'm fighting guys that are walking around 205 and they're coming in the cage at, you know, 200, 205 pounds. Some of them probably bigger. And it's like, you know, what do you pick your poison, you know? So, you know, the obvious one you're going to pick is you're going to cut a little bit of weight.

and that's not good for anyone. So I think it would remove some of that. And I get where it waters down the sport a little bit too. But, you know, it's a real sport now. You know, it's not what it was back in the day. Like, it's a real sport and people follow it. And I think it's a perfectly good thing. I think it would be a good thing for the sport as a whole, personally.

Well, I also think I was kind of against more weight classes for that reason because it would water it down, but I think we've kind of gone beyond that because we are now at a stage in the sport where, and I don't want to say weight classes don't matter, they do matter, but what I mean is, is the names matter now. Like, we care about the names,

kind of like with boxing. Like, I care about Canelo, I care about Demetri Bivel, I care about Terence Crawford and Errol Spence and things like that. I'm not necessarily thinking, oh, they're not exactly the same weight. Like, you know, so when I think about, you know, when I think about Dream fights,

when I think about, like, let's say, Islam fighting Leon Edwards. You know, like, yeah, they're in different weight classes, but it'd be interesting because, like, if you're doing it in, like, the typical, like, if you're doing 10-pound increments, maybe they meet at one-65. You know, maybe that's where they meet at it. And that would be interesting. And I think about a guy, and I know, listen, I've been the guy, you know, I was his, you know, his biggest cheerleader thinking he was going to be a champion one day.

And I do agree to a certain extent. Like, Kevin Lee said forever, like, if there was a 165-pound weight class, He would have been so much better off because he was too small for welts weight and he was too big for light weight. Now, that's not everybody. I mean, dude, if there had been a 195 pound weight class, would Dan Henderson have ever lost ever in his career? If there had been a 1905 pound weight class, Dan Henderson might have been undefeated his entire career. Exactly. I felt the same way about a 175 pound.

Like I was just talking about, like 185, I'm too small for 170 kills me to get there. Again, I can only speak from personal experience. I can't really speak for others But when I get to 175 Like my body is hurting To get to that 171 weight limit Those last three or four pounds are fucking miserable And I'm dying

You know and like you're lightheaded You're suffering And you're not recovering I don't care about the 24, 36 hours However long it is There's no way you're fully recovering Your brain is not rehydrated as much. So again, I think it would help with the safety of the sport.

And look, you want to see double champs? Double champ would become a lot more common. Okay. So, you know, maybe the argument is, yeah, that waters it down. But if it becomes more common and that's more the standard, like in boxing, you know, where guys are multi-division champs, then that's what the standard is now. You know what I mean? It's not necessarily taking away from the sport. It's just making a new standard for the sport. No, you're absolutely right. Yeah, because we don't really blink an eye at that in boxing. Like, we don't really think about it.

It doesn't carry the same, like, it means a lot in boxing, but it doesn't carry the same thing we haven't even made where we're just like, you know, like, it is a huge accomplishment to go up and win a weight class because you're going up 15 pounds generally to win another divisional title. But in boxing, like I said, there is a benefit to that because you're just like, yeah, this guys won it welterweight, super well to weight, whatever the fuck numbers, whatever names they have for their divisions. But yeah, I agree.

And like I said, I was against it for the longest time, but I think you're kind of coming around to it because, like, while you will still have guys and girls who will go through extreme weight cuts trying to get that advantage, I think by and large the majority of people will fight at a more natural weight for them. Like, you want to follow 175 because that was your natural weight is 175. You're still cutting weight, but you're not killing yourself to cut weight. Exactly. You're cutting weight properly now, right? Again, my last three or four pounds, miserable, like your body doesn't want to sweat. It's just saying, stop it, please. And again, it would just set a new standard.

Like, when we talk about boxing, you know, we look at guys like Manny Packow has been champion of, I think, unified champion of eight divisions. You know, and like I know that stat. I'm not 100% accurate on that maybe, but, you know, I know that stat, but a lot of people don't. you know, but we all know who many Pacow is. Yeah, I mean, we all know that he's a great fight. Like you said, it comes down to the name at that point a little bit more. Where some guys, like if you're a, you know, one division champion, okay, that's not enough to be a huge star yet. You know what I mean?

Like that's maybe that's just not enough at this point. That just means that, okay, you're a champion. Now you need to move up and get another belt to really get noticed. You know what I mean? It just sets a new standard is all that it does. Yeah, you kind of have to rewire your brain. a little bit to think about it like you do with boxing. Like I said, it doesn't bother me.

Like, I understand the problem with boxing when they get like the so many titles involved. But ultimately, as long as we get the fights, I don't care what weight classes they are. Right, that's what you want, right? Yeah. The problem with boxing, in my opinion, isn't the weight classes. It's the sanctioning organizations. There's so many of those. So you could have, you know, three, four belts in one weight class.

And that's where, you know, it gets to be an issue. And of course, you're not going to have that with. the UFC that you know they're the top dog and they're always going to be the top dog so that's uh that's never going to be an issue and that's why i always had a you know i get again i get why they do it but i've never really liked like the bmf title or the interim titles that didn't really need to be interim titles and things like that because that's what i feel like waters it down more so than you know moving up weight classes oh yeah i've said it since last year like everyone like everyone that went nuts about Tom Aspinall, not fighting John Jones and, you know, basically

ripping John Jones for doing the whole Steepay thing. And like, do you realize the only, and I'm not, this isn't a knock on Tom Aspinall, but the only reason Tom Aspinall is interim champion right now is because the UFC needed to put a title fight on a pay-per-view. That's it. They didn't give him the interim title because he was the most deserving guy and he was waiting in line. And no, they needed a, they needed a fight to fill a card because John Jones fell off the card.

So they needed another title fight to sell a paperview. they created Tom Aspinall and Sergey Papovich on two weeks notice. That was not the heavyweight title fight of the century. It was the heavyweight title fight of necessity. And now everyone's kind of forgetting how it got created. Again, none of this is Tom Aspinall's fault. And I understand why he wants to fight John Jones. I totally get that.

But you have to remember the circumstances. Like he's an interim title because John got injured and they needed a fight to sell a pay-per-view. That's it. Right. And it's pretty rare when a guy gets. It's as dominant, well, he's been the only one as dominant as him, where now he's at a point in his career where he can make that kind of call. Like that doesn't happen in the UFC.

You don't get to make those kind of calls. But John is the greatest of all time and undefeated. And, you know, he earned that right to be able to make that call. Yeah, he wants a legacy fight. So, yeah, like, I get it. Could you argue Tom could be a more dangerous matchup than Steeping? at this age potentially i don't know like steppe still like i think people disrespect stepe i think stepey's not still a monster but for sure and what people forget is like like john

isn't choosing stepea over tom aspinall because it's an easier fight he's choosing it because of the name value right yeah you know he doesn't care about tom aspinall have an interim title yeah it's like it's like when uh when george fought nick dyes and johnny hendricks was the number one contender and everyone's like, oh, Johnny Hendricks, he's the number one guy, and he was at the time. But you're going to pass up on a Nick Diaz fight, which ended up being monstrously huge and, like, huge numbers. You get a huge boatload of money, and Nick was a huge name. Yeah, you fight Nick Diaz. I get why you fight Nick Diaz.

I understand that. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And, again, that's really, really rare in the UFC. You have to, you got to go through the gauntlet to get to that. And guys like John Jones and GSP have done that. So you know, you got to say fair game to them. But you don't get to do that when you're, you know,

champions defended your belt once or twice. You know, those guys are the fucking greatest of all the time. More power to them. Yeah, or you're an interim champ. At that point, yeah, you're holding a piece of some sort of title. I don't, I hate interim titles. I've always hated interim titles. And I understand sometimes they have.

There's a time and a place for them, right? There are, but it's, I think, I think the problem is, is, is, Dave Gays gotten watered down because like when Dominant Cruz was out for like two years and they'd never stripped him and so they had Haydenborough become champion. I got that. I understood that. But Tom Aspenol becoming champion because John got injured and you need to sell a pay-per-view. That's not a good enough reason to create interim time. Right.

And that's what I'm saying. That waters it down, in my opinion, more than weight classes. Yeah, that creates more. I think the weight classes would be a great thing. That creates more problems than it solves versus like having a hundred. Like if you had a hundred, if you had a 195 pound champion and maybe, maybe let's say, I'm not cursing the card, by the way. I wouldn't be like this. Well, let's just say hypothetically, Alex Pereira gets injured.

He can't fight at 300. So the 195 pound champion says, I'm going to step up and fight Jamal Hill for the 205 pound title. It's pretty cool, right? Like, that's still a pretty cool fight. That would make sense. But you don't need to create an interim title just because Alex is hurt and now you need another fight to sell a card. Yeah, yeah, good point. Yeah.

So, like I said, I think there's a lot of benefits to it. But I'm not Dana White, and I doubt that Dana White's going to be listening to this podcast and it changes mind tomorrow. You never know. You never know. You never know. That's the guy who once said there will never be women in the UFC and look where they're at now. I know, right?

I mean, at some point, they got to have more weight classes, I think. It's just if nothing, like just for the safety of the fighters, like I was saying, like, like there's no way I don't know maybe they would but like I don't see guys cutting 20 pounds the week of the fight you know when you when you can

you're going down four weight classes you know what I mean yeah versus like just going down three weight classes you know cut 15 pounds right I think it would solve a lot of that yeah and also let's not forget like a few years ago the UFC roster was like 400 guys now it's like 700 like

yeah yeah now we had that discussion a week ago. It's a lot easier getting the UFC now than what it once was, but the numbers are bigger. Like, there's a lot more people involved in sports. So you could potentially create those divisions. And, and at that point, like, guys could be ranked in two different divisions. Like, you could have an Islam Makacha being the number one 55 pounder. Maybe he's the number three, 165 pounder. Right. You know, like that happens in boxing. Like, that happens, you know. Yeah. I think, you know, you'd also have more title fights, more pay-per-views, I guess. That helps the EOC. They always want that.

Yeah, it makes sense to me But again, I'm not Dana White So maybe our talking point is You know, kind of falling on deaf ears here Yeah, we'll see, we'll see Well, we'll have a lot to talk about next week UFC 300 is ticking away It's almost here.

We'll have a lot to talk about hopefully going to be doing a special show For that next week, more on that later But obviously this weekend We got Brendan Allen taking on Chris Curtis That's a really fun main event It's at the apex, but you know It is what it is. I'm just, you know, I'm over the apex

It's still a great fight, though. Great fight. That's a bar and murder of a fight right there. That's a great fight. I just hate the apex. I'm so over the apex. But also, also, I'm just, I'm letting it go. I know a lot of you like to complain about it.

It's not going away. It's never going away. The UFC has found a formula to where they can have cards and not have to pay to travel and sell tickets. It's not going away. I just, I'm just over it myself, but it's just part of the sport now. Just learn to love it because it's not going away. Yeah, everybody's over it.

But like you said, it's not going anywhere anytime soon. So learn to love it. I think a lot of people, though, too, they're, you know, especially in a lot of these smaller cities, they just want to go to a fight. Yeah. They want to see the UFC tour more again. Like, I feel like they don't get around as much as they used to.

And that's, I think, what a lot of people are probably missing. That's what I miss, you know, that like just go into a lot of the smaller cities more often, especially on the East Coast, right? So many of them are, you know, in Vegas, you know, on the West Coast. like I used to go to UFCs all the time and I feel like they're never within you know a convenient location anymore yeah I would agree with you there that I do miss that that was one of the downsides like they just went to Atlantic City and that's like the first time they've traveled to that and they're going to St. Louis and May which I guess is

like the closest it's been to here but yeah like used to do Chicago they do Indianapolis they do Chicago they do Cleveland Cincinnati Cleveland we used to have cars in Ohio all the time at least once a year maybe and now like the last year in ohio is what you fought here and that was right after the pandemic ended yeah exactly that that's what i i would like to see a lot more of uh yeah is like we were just talking about earlier i mean we're within driving distance and within easy flights to a lot of cities around here so it was always easy for us to go to fights but you know when they're at the apex like yeah i couldn't even go if i wanted to anyway you know

there's not even seats there to go. So, you don't want to, you know, and I've been to enough fights. I'm not interested in being one of the 100 people sitting there anyway. I don't want to meet fucking Mark Zuckerberg. You might punch Mark Zuckerberg. Well, I mean, I don't have anything against them, but I don't, you know, I don't have any interest in meeting the nerd either. Yeah, that's all right.

Yeah. Like, I've been to, I went to Milwaukee. I've been in Milwaukee twice. I'm not knocking Milwaukee, by the way, for anyone listening for Milwaukee. but Milwaukee's not the biggest town in the world but I had fun in Milwaukee why did I go to Milwaukee because the UFC went there for a Fox card a couple times like that's how I went to Milwaukee

was because they had a UFC show there yeah yeah exactly right you never went to Milwaukee for any other reason right yeah like I had no reason to go to Milwaukee but now I've been and like I liked it I had fun of Milwaukee but I was only I went to Omaha one time I had no reason to ever go to Omaha Nebraska my life why did I go there because there was

a UFC show there yeah that's what I'm saying so this is kind of what miss. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. But UFC 300, that's going to be big. It's going to be massive. We're going to break down that card. Obviously, with all the cards, all the fights of the card, I don't know if we'll be able to get to every fight, but we're going to break down things. Just talk about the historic

nature of this car, break down some of the biggest fights. Hopefully I have a special show next week with that. Stay tuned for more on that later. Matt, where can people check you out? They want to support you. Support what you got going on. I'm Immortal Instagram and Twitter at the Immortal Coffee on Instagram. and Twitter at try underscore create the best creatine gummies well the best only creatine gummies i've ever seen but man the best taste in creatine you'll ever have more convenient take it through tsa with no problems they don't think you're trying to smuggle cocaine through the tsa or anything and uh and yeah yeah

that's my shit man that's a problem go through tsa like what is this it's creatine sure it's creatine. Come on. Get out line. I get out line. Yeah. And then they wipe it down with whatever they're wiping it down with and you got to wait. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck all that. Yeah. Get you some creatine gum. They save you the time. All right, folks. That's our

podcast for this week. We'll be back next week. As we gear up for U.S.C. 300 officially, it's only less than two weeks away now. So we'll be gearing up for that next week. So we appreciate everyone. Obviously, there's always support everything that Matt's going on. And of course, go check out the podcast on all your favorite podcast platform, Spotify, Apple,

and, of course, over on the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I'm Damon Martin. We'll see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Writer. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you that. Podcast Network. Support for this show comes from Volkswagen.

As the U.S. gets ready to host soccer's biggest moment on a worldwide stage, Volkswagen is helping people discover new turfs and new ways to play the beautiful game right here in the U.S. From deaf and power wheelchair soccer to beach and futsal, Volkswagen is actively supporting all the communities and teams within the U.S. soccer ecosystem. They're supporting talent from across the U.S. soccer extended national teams and are focused on helping to give these less widely known forms of soccer a platform moving forward. From the pitch to the sand and everything in between, welcome to our turf. Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first,

There, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes.