MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reveals His Greatest Heavyweight of All-Time, Warns Jake Paul About Moving into MMA

Episode Date: January 31, 2023

The Fighter vs. The Writer is back and this week Matt Brown and Damon Martin discuss the latest news happening around combat sports, including Fedor Emelianenko’s retirement fight happening at Bellator 290. Emelianenko is widely regarded as one of the greatest heavyweights of all-time, but does his résumé really top everybody else to make him the best to ever do it? Also this week, we’ll discuss the recently announced fights with Alex Pereira going to war with Israel Adesanya in a rematch while Gilbert Burns prepares to clash with Jorge Masvidal. Brown will also give his thoughts on Jake Paul signing up to face Tommy Fury as well as his recent deal to join the PFL roster where he expects to make the transition into mixed martial arts. The UFC welterweight veteran offers Paul some friendly advice about making the move into MMA while adding that he’d even be willing to help him get ready for his debut. All this and more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. the Writer! Subscribe: Apple Podcasts Subscribe: Spotify Read More: MMA Fighting Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and he is the UFC legend, Matt Brown, and we are back for another week of fights and Belator and UFC both back this week. Matt, first off, how are you? I'm very good, training hard, getting ready, man. Ready for that call. You teased it last week. The immortal is coming back. I'm ready, man.

We're in talks. It just isn't solid yet. It's just not solid. man. Well, we know we know we're going to break the news here on Fighter versus the writer. What else would you have a podcast? You can't break the news for your own fight on here, you know?

Yeah, especially when it's an MMA podcast. Yeah, if we were talking about, like, we were talking about something else to be a little weird. Like, why are you talking about fighting right now? But no, this is kind of the point of the podcast. So, yeah, if you didn't, if you didn't break it on here, what are we doing this for? Yeah, what else? What we even talk about, like, comic books? Yeah, we can talk about metal.

Don't say nerd. I got, you're looking at a shelf of comic books. behind me. That's not cool. Yeah, that was kind of a joke. But yeah, we can talk about metal too, I guess. But I don't know if, you know, we're into metal, but is all they make people that listen into metal? I don't know.

Yeah. I can talk about music a lot. I listen to a lot of music. I mean, I worked to a music store for years in college. So I love, I could talk about we've done on metal all day. So I'm all for that kind of podcast. I don't know if the MMA people would be tuning in for the metal podcast. Maybe.

I don't know. Yeah. There's a certain demographic that is, and then there's those that are not, and that's fine, right? But, you know, with metal, like, you either into it or you probably hate it, right? Like, if you're not into metal, you probably think it's fucking ridiculous and it's stupid, and, you know, the turkey monster growls and shit. It's like, you know, you got to be like, you got to be into music to be into metal, I think. Yeah, yeah, it's a, and also, I will say, like, there are definitely metal heads in MMA, but no offense. like some, a lot of fighters and a lot of people around, like, there's some pretty crappy

music around MMA. I'm not going to lie. Like, when I hear like entrance themes and stuff, I'm like, who, man. Yeah, it needs you get you on some different music there, guys. Like, what's going on here? But yeah, to each their own. To each their own, that's what I say. I never judge anybody by the musical taste.

Just chances are we probably wouldn't go to a concert together. Well, I'm sure we're going to talk about Izzy in the show today. But I got to tell he had one of the best walkout themes I've ever heard when he did, came out to the soft music. Oh, that was awesome. That was amazing, bro. We got to give it to them. Like, that was just on point.

Unfortunately, it didn't work out the way that the theme song played out, but it was very cool. Yeah, here's what I love about Izzy. Because one of my biggest complaints about, I don't say it's a big complaint, one of my little annoyances of the UFC is how, like, all the intros and everything, all the walkouts, they're all the same. Like, there's nothing really special about them. And, like, I remember, like, when they did that thing, for Mendez and McGregor a few years ago,

the card you fought on, when they had them, like, live performances. Like, that was cool. Like, it was awesome to, like, have, like, cool. Like, just, I'm not saying you do it for every card. Obviously, you don't do it for every card. But, like, you know, a lot, like, the personality part was kind of taken out of it.

And I like that Izzy, like, he brought back the Undertaker thing from WWE for his fight with Jared Cananier. The Saw thing was a really cool theme to use for that. He had that, like, the whole, you know, that whole moniker for the, for the paraiify. He did that big one down in Australia and his Zealand when they had that card down there, Australia, when he did that huge walkout with the Haka, the drums and everything, all that kind of crazy, like dancing and stuff.

Like, dude, it's the, and I get, it's not for everybody. Like, I understand, like, not everyone's going to want to have this elaborate walkout, but, like, I just missed it. Like, we don't have any. There's, like, it seems like there's no fun in the walkouts. Like, it's just music plays. You walkout, it's over. Yeah, I agree.

Best walkout ever, though. Mike Tyson. Yeah, Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson has somebody. Yeah, I forget which fight. it was but when he was wearing the black cut off and it was just silence and he just walked out

I mean God how intense was that bro come on yeah head down gloves up he had a whole down moniker going on there just dude Tyson Tyson was not Tyson was never one of the I mean let's I know people you know talk about this and debate this Tyson was never one of the greatest heavyweight boxers of all time but he was one of the

most fun heavyweight boxers of all time like that dude just like in his piece he was so much fun to watch. Like it all fell apart. We all know what happened. But for those few years, he was on top man, boy, was it fun? That's exactly it. And I get so aggravated when I hear people talk about Mike Texan was the greatest

heavyweight of all time or even top five greatest heavy weights of all the time. He certainly could have been, I think. I don't think there's any question in that. Like he had the ability. But no, you said it perfectly, man. Like, what a fun time. We were kids at the time. obviously but Jesus man when this guy walked out you know it was just like it was just sitting a chill

down your spine oh yeah I remember we used to back in the day we had the satellite dish and we used to steal like you'd tune in and get like the you'd like steal the pay-per-views because Tyson would beat people so quickly you'd be like man can I really afford to pay for a Tyson pay-per-view because he just goes out there and obliterates the guys and I like I remember I was a kid like you I was a kid during those years and I just remember like I didn't know much about boxing, but I knew Mike Tyson. I knew when Mike Tyson was on, someone's getting their head knocked off. That's exactly it.

And thank God, man. Like, that dude was just, I don't remember ever seeing a fighter where it just struck fear into every opponent. And when he walked out, I mean, like I said, it's sitting a chill down your spine, man. Like, I don't ever remember anyone like that in the history of combat sports. And that's why everybody says he's the greatest, even though we all know it was not by, you know, anybody who knows knows he was not.

And neither was Floyd Mayweather. So we want to start talking about greatest botches of all time. You know, we can get into that. Although Floyd in there is not one of the greatest, certainly the most successful. But without change of the subject, well, yeah, man, Mike Tyson would just, God damn. Like, what a fucking fearful guy, man. When he was at his prime, like, like, do you heard the story about a sphinx, right? they're in the locker room and Mike Tyson got mad about something,

punched the wall, hit a hold through the wall, and Spinks is in the other locker room next door, and Tyson's fist goes through the wall. I mean, Spinks was just scared out of his mind. Of course, Spinks was coming up from light heavyweight, up to heavyweight to fight freaking Mike Tyson. I mean, this dude just nerve-wracking, man. I mean, imagine having to go in their box with that guy.

Oh, I know. I think the only, like, the closest equivalent I can think to of that in MMA for like a two or three year span was probably Anderson Silva. There was a little bit of a time, like a couple years in Anderson Silva when he was running at middleweight and then going up and doing what he did to like Forge Griffin. Like he had that oar about him where like I said this all the way where guys were almost beaten going into the cage with him. Like they're just like, we just want to survive. Like we're not trying to win. We're just trying to make it through like around. Like there was that two or three year span of Anderson Silva.

but I think that's the closest, because even as dominant, like, as good as John Jones has been, and John Jones is, in my opinion, still the greatest, you know, mixed martial artist talent-wise we've ever seen. There wasn't that, like, just that ferocious fear of him, you know what I mean? Even, like, Demetrius Johnson, as good as he was, it wasn't, like, this fear of him, but Anderson, because the way he just used to just obliterate people, like, I think that's the closest, and it's still not the same as Tyson. Tyson had a different aura about him to, like, where, I just, I just were watching some of those

fights where the guys were in there and they're like they're talking a good game and then they go in there and they just deer in the headlights man they just got absolutely frozen and then just beat on by Tyson like no one's quite the equivalent but I think Anderson's probably the closest we had for like a two big a two year stretch there that's a good call I was thinking maybe francis might get there of course now he's doing whatever he's doing which I'm sure we'll talk about you know whether it's fighting Tyson Fury or um going to pfl whatever it is he's you know, he certainly had the power to strike that fear to people. He didn't really do the crazy, intimidating stuff like Mike Tyson did, where, you know,

he said, I'm going to fuck you till you love me and shit like this, right? You know, he didn't have that kind of street about him, even though Francis's history certainly adds up to probably help for life than Mike Tyson's. and the only other guy I think that could have maybe began to struck that fear, but he retired was Khabib. I mean, he made guys miserable

through, you know, however many rounds they lasted, he made them miserable. And I think guys come out in the, you know, not to name any names, but I think I've seen guys in the third, fourth rounds of Kibb fights broken. And with that fear, you know, after the fight, they might have thought they were walking

into, you know, they might have come into the fight with some confidence, feeling good. But by that third or fourth round, they're like, I've never felt anything like this. And I'm not getting out of here, shamefully. And I'm sick of being in here with this guy. I'll never forget at the UFC 205 card in New York, the first Madison Square Garden card. I was on Media Row. And he was fighting Michael Johnson on the undercard. And, like, it was, and I like Michael Johnson very much.

Michael Johnson, a real durable guy, real fun fighter, a guy who's, like, like resume has a lot of losses on it, but a guy who's like, oh, he's two wins away from being a contender. Like, he knocked out Dustin Porre. Like, he's just, he's always like, he's always like, he's always been like right there, but never quite got over the hump had that crazy by with Justin Gachie. But I remember in that fight, like, he had Michael Johnson on the ground beating on him and like telling him to give up.

He's like, I need this title. You need to give up. The title is mine. You need to give up. You need to give up. And he's talking to Dana in the front row. I'm like, how, like, how much of a mental head. fuck is it when there's a guy literally punching you in the head telling you to give up and then

talking to your boss on the outside of the cage saying I need this title shot and then just fucking punching you in the head dude how like mentally debilitating is that dude I can't even imagine I don't know but again he did that to Michael Johnson who's not some scrub either like Michael Johnson is one of the best athletes in the sport man and I think Michael Johnson has way more potential than he's ever tapped into. I don't know what exactly, you know, I'm not part of his camp or anything. I don't know what's going on. But that guy has some mad skills, man.

I think he could be anybody in that division on any night. He made an easy work of him, man. So, you know, just like you said, talking to Dana during the fight. And he did the same thing with Connor, right? You know, just talking to him and telling him. I mean, I've been in enough fights. I don't know how these guys are, you know, how good he must be to be able to keep fighting, keep beating up a guy and talking about it at the same time.

Like, what a savage son of a bitch. Yeah, that dude, like I said, and again, I'm glad he went on on top because so rarely do we get an instance where a guy actually goes out on top of me, retired 29 and 0, retired his champion. But I'm not going to lie. Like, I would have loved to see him go for just a few more fights. just because that dude was so freaking good. Like he just, man, he was just so much fun to watch.

And he was just, he was that guy. And like I said, credit to him, though. Get out while the getting's good. You know, there's two, there's really two examples in our sport. It's him and George St. Pierre, guys who literally went out on top with the title, walked away and never came back. Because you and I both know there's a million other instances

where guys keep coming back, keep coming. We talked about it last week with Shogun. Like, I love Shogun. Shogun's a legend. I'll never, you know, not love Shogun. but we talked about it. Like, it's just sad to see a legend go out against some dude who you couldn't pick out of a lineup if there was a gun to your head. I don't want that.

Speaking of retirements, Matt, good segue here. We got the great Fador Emilian Inko's got his final fight coming up on Saturday against Ryan Bade. The last fight of his legendary career, so he says he's retired before and come back. Although I think this time, I think he's like 43 or 44. So I don't, I don't, there's not a lot of, you know, not a lot of sand left in that hourglass for him to really come back again. but uh fadeor i'm kind of conflicted on this one matt because ryan sparked him in like 45 seconds the last time they fought and and obviously we know how good fador can be but there's part of me it's like man like i feel like ryan bader's probably going to win this fight and and i love

ryan bader by the way ryan's a good dude i've known ryan for a lot of years doesn't he's another one doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves for how good he is but man like it's going to be a little heartbreaking to see like if that's the way it plays out Fader gets sparked by Ryan Bader in his final final finally it's you know I don't know I'm I just I want guys to go out on top and it just so rarely happens in this sport yeah I'm with you and I actually think that Bader is a good matchup for Fador but um you know the first time you got caught early and you know that's what happens in the sport right and bader hits like a freaking Mack truck so what do you do right like it's gonna it's gonna happen but

I'm actually interested. I think it's a good fight for Fadorn. I'm interested in seeing this fight. And I'm with you. I don't want to see him go out going down like that. But, you know, the problem is a guy like Bader, you just can't make mistakes, man. He said he's underrated, in my opinion,

in terms of the top, you know, 10, 20 guys in the world. You know, he's not always talked about, but maybe he should be. Ryan has kind of rejuvenated his career at heavyweight. Like he's become a really solid heavyweight. And we've had this conversation before, Matt, in past episodes where we talk about, like, being the biggest, strongest guy doesn't always necessarily make you the better guy, especially at heavyweight.

I mean, Fador, one of the greatest heavyweights of all time. He was, you know, 2.30, 240, pudgy. You know, he was never the big ripped up mass, you know, just ripped heavyweight. Steepay, you know, 220, 2. 2.30, never the biggest guy. Velasquez, 220, 2.30, 240. Being the biggest guy in heavyweight doesn't always mean you're the best. Now, of course, there's, you know, monsters like Francis and Gannu, who easily pushes

260, but yeah, like, you don't have to be the biggest. It's just being the better guy. And I'm curious, Matt, you know, we had this article go up on MMA fighting yesterday, the round table where we all picked our favorite heavyweight of, the best heavyweight weight of all time, not our favorite heavyweight, the best heavyweight of all time. And we went down the list and I was thinking about this. I was like, when you look at every other division in the sport, from light heavyweight on down, it's not that hard to pick the so-called goat, the so-called greatest of all time.

You could have a bit of a debate. But, you know, light heavyweight, probably John Jones, middleweight, Anderson Silva, welterweight George St. Pierre, lightweight, Khabib. You know, you could argue a little bit of featherway, but I think it's pretty clearly Josealdo. You know, you get, Bant to weight's a little bit more of an argument who is, you know, that's a bit of an argument, but heavyweight's tough because you got Fador, who was like this dude who went on this incredible like 28 fight win streak or undefeated streak, undefeated for five years or whatever nuts it was.

But as much as I love Fador, he had a lot of, he had a lot of tomato cans in there, Matt. He did. He had a lot of weird pro wrestlers he was beating up over in Pride and Zulizino and all these weird, like guys who had no business being in there with him. Now, did he also have Nogara and Crow Cop? and absolutely he had some really quality wins in there but we can't like when you say 28 fight on beating streak let's qualify who is in that 28 fights and you look at you look at stepey most defenses in UFC history more than anybody else it's only three but it's more and when you look at stepe's

resume he only has one really bad loss on there he has the stephen strut fight other than that he doesn't really have bad losses he has quality wins and his losses are to junior dos Santos he has a loss to Daniel Cormier, who he ended up beating twice, and he has a loss to France. He's a guy he freaking dominated for five rounds in the first fight. You got Fabrizio Verduz out there. You got Cain Velasca. I don't know, Matt, in your opinion,

who is the greatest heavyweight of all time? You know, I'm there with Steepa. I'm a huge Fedor fan. I wish it was Fedor. You know, up until Steepet, I would certainly say Fadour. So I put Fado at number two. You know, like, I mean, you said it all perfectly. Look, 28 fight unbeaten streak, but it's not so much the unbeaten streak as much as the guys that he did beat along the way.

Because of 28 fights, I mean, how many of them work tomato cans, a lot of them. A lot of guys that were guaranteed wins and easy wins and, you know, a few of those pride matchups that were just circus fights. Everybody loves to see like Zulus, right? like that's just a circus fight for pride. Steppe, I think, had the toughest competition, the hardest matchups in the most difficult division historically in terms of heavyweights.

Pride certainly has an argument there, right, with the guys that Fador beat with Nogheira, Kro-Kopp. but, you know, when you look at the level of competition, like Stepe versus those guys, look, I think Francis and Cormier, you know, is better wins than Crow Cop and Neger. So I go with Stepe, Pader a close second, and King Velasquez should have been, but, you know, should have could have would have. you know, I think he would have been had he been healthy and everything would have worked out in his favor. His life would have took in the right turns, but he didn't. So he's stuck probably, you know, I don't know, five or six or something. So I'm totally right there with Steve, A.

I'm betting you agree, don't you? I do. I put Steve A number one. And again, to me, it's quality of wins and also quality of losses. You know, he has one kind of bad loss that was Stefan Strew very early in his year. UFC career. Junior DeSantos, no shame there. And that was a fight, a very close fight, very good fight there first when he avenged it, knocked him out in their second in the rematch. He has the loss to Cormier, then picked up two wins over him, so that's, you know, quality

wins there. And then the loss to Francis, a guy, every fight he lost with the acceptance of the Stefan Strufei fight, he also has a win over that guy. He has a win over JDS. He has a win over Francis. He has two wins over Cormier. And the one bad loss of Stefan Struv. And again, that was one fight earlier in his UFC career. And listen, I know people, here's the other thing I have with Fador. And again, this makes me sound like I'm knocking. I'm just saying like when it's close, I have to take these things into account. Fadour, like Fadour later in his career, you can sit here and say that like he wasn't the same

guy, he was older. Yes, I understand all that. But it doesn't not count. Like him losing the Matmitrium counts. Like, I don't care how much you dislike that he did it later in his career and he was 40 and he wasn't the same Fador's in pride and whatever. I get it. But it still counts.

He's still got knocked out. And there's where I would add in, like, even if you, so if we take away Fador's later career after he lost to Bear Doom and then I think he was on a three-fight losing streak after that. Yeah, Dan Henderson knocked him out. Yeah, all that. Yeah, Anderson and then, you know, Mitrione and these guys beat him. So even if we cut all that out and we start before that, then just compare those careers,

then Stipe still beats him, right? because he has, you know, the wins of, excuse me, over Francis, Cormier. And, I mean, one over, two wins over Cormier is gigantic. I mean, that's a huge, huge feather in the cap right there. So, and a win over Francis is gigantic. So, you know, when you take just cut out fado, if you want to say, you know, all fadoes old and everything, okay, well, let's just, let's do that. And let's just look at the beginning of fadoors.

career or you know his uh the prime of favorite career so to speak i'm still going to stepe yeah stepe stepe does i don't think stepe gets quite the credit he deserves and i think fadour had a bit of like that that mystique around him in pride you know what i mean like this is not a knock let me just be clear about that like there's a lot of new fans in the sport who who heard about fador that weren't necessarily around for fador like when he was actually like on top and i was you were I think we've had this conversation before, staying up late to watch him fight Crow Cop, one of my favorite fights of all time.

Like, I was around and watched Fador in his prime, and that dude was a monster. But, you know, I just think there's some other, like that, you know, again, his biggest wins, Nogarra and Crow Cop, those are probably his two most established biggest wins. You know, but at the same time, when you look at, again, Steve Bay's resume, you look at Ingana, Cormier,

Cormeet is a great one. Like, if Cormia hadn't dropped down to light heavyweight, because he respected his teammate, Kane Velasquez. Daniel Kormier could be in the conversation is the greatest heavyweight of all the time. Like that's how good that dude was. I mean, do you remember what he did to Josh Barnett when they fought? He chucked him around the cage like a freaking ragdoll

and that's Josh Barnett. And Stevie has two wins over that guy. I mean, it's just, it's not, I'm not saying it's like, you know, it's a blowout. It's not, you know, a big huge thing. But that's why I put Steve A number one and Fador number two. And then I'm with you. I think if Kane Velasquez stays healthy,

Kane Velasquez might be the greatest heavyweight by a mile, but the poor guy, man, he might, here's the sad thing about Kane Velasquez's his career. He's probably going to go down as the greatest what-if in history. Like for all he accomplished, two-time champion, all this kind of things, it's still the greatest what-if because so much his career was missed by injury. Yeah, it reminds me, like we're just talking about Mike Tyson's very similar, right? Where there's so many what-ifs, we see all the potential,

we know how great they could be. but when we look at wins and losses, that's what we got to judge it on, right? It's got to be results. We can't base it on what we think would happen because we don't know what would happen. But also, I think we have taken account like the different eras too.

If you look at like Fador, even like Matt Hughes, right? Like he did amazing things during his era. But then GSP came in and created a whole new era, right? And this is just kind of the evolution of the sport, right? The wins that Matt Hughes had probably weren't as great as the wins that GSP had, right? And then it just gets tougher and tougher, like Camaroosemann, Kamaru Usman has an even

tougher time, right? Because the level of competition is growing, the sport is growing. So, you know, when we talk about Fadoar, I say, yes, he was the greatest of his time. it's almost impossible to put him as the greatest of all time because the level of competition just wasn't there like it is now. Yeah. And we could probably, we say the same with,

you know, we could go back in history and look at multiple guys like that. You're Matt Hughes is the first guy that comes to mind. He was certainly the greatest of his time in Walter Wade division, maybe, you know, one of the top three of his era, period. But you can't compare his wins to GSP's wins.

you know, and the fact that GSP beat him doesn't necessarily, you know, that's not where I'm going to make the determination. GSP is the greatest and not Matt Hughes. Like if, you know, Steep A and Fador, if I, like, I would pick Steep A to beat him, but that wouldn't be the reason that I would say he's the greatest over Fador. You know, it's just different errors on the level of competition is coming up immensely in the past 20 years. Yeah, absolutely. No, that's absolutely correct. And like I said, I love Fador. I'll always be a fan of Fadour and he may go down as number two.

I just can't put him, again, I can't erase, I can't erase what happened in the latter half of his career. I hate that we do that and I understand the tendency to do that. We kind of, you know, when someone has a lot of losses towards the end of their career, we kind of forget about it. But again, when you're when you're nitpicking on why one guy is over another guy, you have to start looking at those things, right? Like, you know, Steve A just, I mean, Steve A last loss was to Francis Inganu in a title fight. And Francis was, Stipe was not, like, Steepa was a young, you know, 28-year-old guy losing to Francis. And what, you know, Fadour at 39, 40 was losing him at Mitriot. So, I mean, again, can you just say, like, that just eliminated because he was older?

Because Steepen's not, like, the youngest guy in the world. He had two wins over Dana Kormier at 39 or whatever. So I don't know. I just, the argument about, like, the lot part of their career doesn't count. Yes, it still counts. Like, I'm not saying it should outweigh everything he's ever done. It doesn't eliminate that. But you can't just.

ignore you can't say oh well the loss to dan henderson doesn't count why yeah he got he got knocked up by a middleweight that counts like yeah it's kind of touch you with that too like do you count anderson silva's lost to jake paul i mean for boxing but not for m m m i mean it's not m m m m i mean you know what i mean like and i even with anderson like here's where like andersen like anderson's a great a great example Anderson Anderson had losses in the latter half his career a lot of them We know that. He did not go out on a good streak. It does not eliminate what he did.

But let's say, hypothetically, Israel Adasania had continued to go undefeated and put together, you know, nine or eight or nine title defenses. Without losing, I'd say Adasanya has a chance to challenge him. Now, that's been knocked off a little bit because he got knocked out by Pereira. And, you know, we're going to talk about that in the second. How many is he had so far? Seven, right? Who, Anderson or is he? Izzy.

He was at seven, right? I think he was at like four or five. I don't think he was at seven. yet. I think he was like four or five. But then he lost a prayer. So, but again, like, if he had stayed on that run, beaten Pereira, you know, beaten whoever and maybe gone up and done another two oh five fight, then I think Otisania has a legit argument at that point of being

the best middleweight. It's knocked down a little bit because he lost a prayer. And of course he has a chance to bounce back from that. But, you know, Anderson, like, again, it's picket, it's nitpicking. He did. He did. And you just can't, you just can't, you just can't You can't negate just because you don't like that he lost later in his career. You can't negate it because he took the fight. He stepped in there and fought. You can't just say, oh, it never happened because you don't like it. Just because you don't like the result doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Right. But I said he lost Anderson. So if you're going to take the whole of the career, because the way I look at it is like, if we're going to talk about the grades, we've got to look at, you know, what was their big accrual of the career? accomplishment, what they do, you know, minus, like, everybody's going to have road bumps, everybody's going to have ups and downs. So we got to, we don't dismiss that, but during their prime, what did they do? What did they do during his prime? What did Steve A, do during his prime?

He may still be in his prime, you know, if he ever fights again. You know, what did Anderson do in their prime? And I don't negate what happened after, but I can also kind of cancel that out of the conversation a little bit too because if they keep fighting like bad things are going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. All I'm saying is I'm just saying like when you're when you're talking about like that real close like who gets the top spot. You know what I mean?

Like in Steepay and Frey and Feodor thing. Like to me, Steve Bay has a little bit better resume and then Fador has a lot of, you know, a lot more bad losses than Steve A does. And again, it's not it's not a knock on him. It's just like I still have Anderson's the greatest middleweight of all time. you know what I mean like even with those losses he is and it's going to take somebody like an because you're comparing prime versus prime right yeah yeah and again if otisanya had gone on a run and not lost to Pereira and continued winning then I'd say man this guy's a legit chance to

take over that spot obviously you know that didn't happen and to that point Matt he comes back and if he comes back and beats perera that's going to be one of the biggest stories ever you know in terms of one of the greatest of all time because he's lost to him three times now, counting the two kickboxing losses, got knocked out twice. Bro. If he comes back and beats Pereira, that is absolutely amazing. And if there's a guy that can do it, it's fucking Israel-A-Assania, man. So speaking of which, that fight got announced this past week.

And, of course, we're coming up on April 8th, UFC 287, I think is the number. I care with the exact number. But, yeah, it's going to be Israel-A-Sanya and Alice Prayer, too. And, of course, we also got Gilbert Burns taking on Jorge Mazadol. We talked about this before with Pereira and Adasanya coming back. I mean, this was the fight that was going to be made. I know we heard rumors. Maybe it was going to be Robert Whitaker.

It was probably never going to be Robert Whitaker. It was always going to be Adasanya. He deserved the rematch. It's basically going to be six months later. They fought November last year. They're going to fight in April. So about six months between fights. The first fight, Adasanya, was winning until he wasn't.

He was winning the fight, and then he got caught and got knocked out in the fifth round. Three losses now. two fights where he was legitimately winning and then got knocked out. He was winning in the kickboxing match and then he got laid out. He was winning in the MMA fight and then he got laid out.

Matt, early thoughts on Adasanya Pereira two technically in MMA. Yeah, I mean, I just said it. If there's a guy that can do it, it's Adasani. It's going to be a mental challenge for him. It's going to be a mental struggle. It's going to be a mental game all around. He has the skills to do it.

He has the ability to do it. can he overcome it mentally? Because now this guy just seems like his arch enemy, his nemesis, his, is, you know, just the one guy that he can't fucking beat. So if he can mentally overcome it, I totally think he can do it. And I'd say, well, I'm picking, Otisani to win this fight. You know, it's funny to say that I actually picked Pereira to win the last time, and I was feeling pretty good about that. Weirdly, I think I'm going to lean towards Adasanya because he made one mistake. He stood in front of Pereira

And allowed Pereira to back him up Against the cage in that fifth round That was a huge mistake He knows he shouldn't have done that And he did it and he got caught and he paid for it He was winning All other aspects of the fight to that point You know what I mean?

Like he can't like it's kind of like Usman and Edwards Like you can't just suddenly reinvent the wheel Because you got caught right Like Usman was beating Leon Edwards soundly He got caught Credit to Leon Edwards Does that mean Usman needs to

completely reinvent himself to win the upcoming. No, he just needs to go out there do what he was doing and not stop doing it and then complete the five rounds or get a finish. Adasania's the same way. Just don't back up against the cage and let him trap you there again. But I don't think Otisanya needs to reinvent the wheel. And Adasanya strikes me as a pretty mentally strong guy. Like he doesn't kind of, he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who's going to wilt under the pressure because he's lost to Alex Pereira three times. That's exactly it. And I think also, I mean, there's more to it than, I think, you know, just don't back up against the cage.

I do think there's a lot more strategy. Oh, yeah, of course, of course, of course. ...has he has to employ than just that. That's not going to be the sole determinant factor of him winning in this fight, which, yeah, you know that. But you were stating a fact of a big, a huge important piece, which I'm sure Adasanii sees and knows himself. The problem that Pereira faces here is he has... he's not as good as a kickboxer as Adasanya. Of course he's beat him twice,

but he knows that he's also, his chance is the knockout. That's how he beats Adasania. Twice now, he's got dropped by Adasania. Well, I guess in the MMA match, he didn't get dropped, but he was wobbled, and the fight would have been finished had he not been saved by the bell.

So I don't think Adasania's going to be mentally weak, mentally nervous, or, I mean, he'll be nervous, but he won't be mentally broken for this fight walking in there. I think he knows this is a winnable fight for him. He knows that he's the better kickboxer. You know, the problem with fighting Ferreira is it just takes out one fucking mistake, man. So that's, you know, this is a such a great matchup, man. It's just, you know, world class.

These guys are just, you know, two of the best ever, like kickboxing. and now at MMA. So this is world class. But again, all it comes down to, in my opinion, the Pereira knows he's got that knockout is his chance. And I think Adasani can overcome that. Yeah, I think in a weird way, I know it sounds weird to say this, Matt, but I think Adasanya needed that.

Like, I think he was kind of sleepwalking a little bit through his last couple of fights. Like, he beat Vittori. Yeah, he beat Canaanier. And I was very critical because, like, the cannoneer fight, he was dominating. And, like, he just, he just walked through rounds. He was winning rounds, but he wasn't, he wasn't gunning for it. He wasn't doing much to, like, and again, I know it takes two to tango, put some of that back on cannoneer, and Vittoria and whatever.

But, like, it was almost like he was getting bored. You know, he's just like, I'm beating these guys. Like, it just kind of, you know, Anderson went through the same thing when he was fighting Tallis Lettes and Patrick Cote. And he's just like, what am I really getting out of these fights? I'm just another guy. Like, it's not Chelsan and it's not, you know, it's not Okami who had beaten me. It's not, you know, the Vitor Belford, this huge rivalry for Brazil. You know, it's Talis Lette's, like, no offense, but like, what does that really do for me?

And he just kind of got bored. And I think the Pereira fight got him up. He was very excited for that fight. He got caught. He got caught in the fifth round. He didn't get out classed. He didn't get beat on for four rounds and got finished. He got, he lost.

Israel, Adesania ultimately lost about two minutes of that fight, right? Like in the first round, Pereira had some good moments, and then he knocked him on the fist. So out of a whatever it was, like a 23-minute match, whatever it was, didn't go to the final bell. But like 23-minute match, out of Sania lost like two minutes. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And, you know, Ferrer pushed him around a little bit. It was the only, I think, you know, he pushed him back a lot, which, you know, was, you know,

see if he can continue doing that in the next match. If he's, if he can make some adjustments where he's not getting pushed back, maybe he gets some more angles. But again, he just can't make a mistake. That's the whole problem here, you know, is he just can't make a mistake. I mean, prayer has got that power. You make one mistake, and it's not like he's not a good kickboxer, right? I mean, obviously, he's, you know, one of the best ever.

But Izzy just can't make that big mistake. And I think he can get through it, you know. I think he can, but 25 minutes is a long time. So it's hard to lean heavily towards Izzy. But like I said, if there's anybody that can do it, I trust his mental strength and his willpower. That's interesting. He said that he might have needed that.

You know, I would have never thought of it that way. But because I thought that he was doing, you know, Vittori and Canaaner, these guys, it kind of seemed like he was coasting through. I didn't think that he took it lightly or wasn't fired up for it, but he took the intelligent route is the way that I took it. And I could be wrong, too. You know, maybe he was taking it a little bit easier on those guys, so to speak.

But it looked to me like he was just as fired up. He was just playing a little bit safer because, you know, why take the risk when you're winning? Whereas Anderson, on the other hand, was playing with guys. Like he was taking the risk where he would throw some ridiculous stuff like, you know, if you catch me, you catch me, you know, whatever. Like he just wasn't afraid to lose is what it seemed like to me. Whereas Adasanya was playing a chess match and winning the chess game and, you know, why go for the kill? Yeah, like I said, it's not a, it's not a knock on what, you know,

Adasanya, you know, I think more guys need to be smart about how they fight because you see a lot of guys that cost them because they want to entertain. Well, we do it up with this Michael Chandler, guys want to entertain and not necessarily just go to, you know, not take the least, you know, the easiest way to victory, you know, the easiest way to victory is not going out there and chucking fist with a dude for 25 minutes until one of you falls over. Having some strategy in there is a better way to win. But I just, I just, again, audicide, like, I just feel like, like, when you, when you fought against the absolute best in the world, and you fought Robert Whitaker twice, and you went up and fought Jan

Blahovic, and you fought, you know, you fought Paulo Kost of that nasty rivalry, all those kind of things, and you beat, and you come back tomorrow, and it's not a knock. on Marvin Vitori, but you'd beat him early in your career. You're kind of like, oh, Marvin Vitori. And it's not a knock on Jared Cannonier, but like, you know, it's like, oh, he's just another guy. He's just another guy. It's very possible that that's where Aze's head was.

I'm not doubt that that's. But I think Pereira got him up and then Pereer caught him because that is he looked great that fight. The whole fight is he looked fantastic. That was his best performance since the Whitaker fight. And then he got caught. Okay, he got caught. But weirdly, I'm with you, man.

I think that Adasanya is going to be so much better prepared. He does not want to go down. I think he's a mentally strong guy. And I am favoring him in this fight. I'm not sitting here saying it's going to be like a knockout or I'm not going to say it's going to be a lopsided fighting and crazy like that. But I think Adasanya can win. I believe he will win.

And then it just sets up a trilogy. I mean, let's be honest. It's going to set up an epic third showdown between them and why not. Like, you know what I mean? Like this is a fight that's going to, you know, unless Hamzok comes up to middleweight, which is probably the other most interesting fight that could be there at middleweight, they're still not a number one guy.

Like, there's still not a guy, like knocking on the door for a title shot right now. You know, Robert Whitaker's still the guy, and he has two losses to Adasanya. So there's no one, like, you're not passing anybody over

to do Adasanya prayer two more times if that's the way it plays out. You know what I mean? Like, you're not screwing up the division if these two guys continue to fight. Yeah, and I hope it works out that way. You know, like that, that trilogy would be the biggest trilogy in history, I think, man.

That's just a beautiful fight. I mean, these guys, like I said, they're just at the top of their division, top of the world, man. They're just amazing fighters. And I just, I want to see him go out of me. I want to see Izzy get a win over for Air 2. That's, you know, I'm a huge Izzy fan. You know, I've been acquaintances with him, you know,

before UFC, before he was in the UFC, train with him a little bit, like just a huge fan of the guy. He hasn't changed one bit, man. Like when I met him back in the day, he fought him glory in Denver, I believe. And, yeah, he came and he trained with us for a little bit, and I got to know him pretty well. And, you know, just an amazing guy all around, man. And, you know, so I'm cheering for him. I'm a little biased, too, because, you know, I'm cheering for him, hardcore, man.

And, you know, just one of the best guys I've ever known. And every time I've talked to him since, he's been exactly the same. So I got a special place in my heart for him and watching him come up through the ranks and become one of the greatest middleweights of all time. So a little bit of bias towards him. But, you know, I want to see him win, man. Yeah. He just want to see him get that victory and set up an amazing trilogy fight.

And, boy, it's going to be a good one. And like we're talking about, look, all he's got to do is he's got to avoid that hook, man. That's his enemy. That's prayer is money. That's his go-to. and that's what Izzy has to avoid the whole time, man. Can he avoid it for 25 minutes? Not certain, but I'm with you, leaning towards Izzy.

Yeah, but listen, one punch, huge punch, but you think to yourself like, you know, you can avoid him two times he hasn't. So, you know, you got to be away. We're supposed to, both of us said here picking out of Sonia, but like I said, by no means can you count on a guy like Alex Prayer because that's what he's got. He's got that one thing that has been Izzy's kryptonite,

two different times in fights that he was losing. Pereira was losing and both times he made him pay with that one punch. So again, as much as we're picking out of Sonia, Pereira still got that ultimate, you know, the ultimate equalizer in that left hand. And I'm going to expect Adasania to be more aggressive and he knows he needs to get Pereira out of there, right? He's been close twice to getting him out of there earlier in the fight at least.

I think he's going to go for it this time a little more. and I think he'll be able to accomplish that. Yeah. The other fight that got announced, of course, was Gilbert Burns and Jorge Mazvedal, and that's a really interesting one because Gilbert, of course, coming up that dominant win over Neil Magny, very... Boarding for flight 246 to Toronto is delayed 50 minutes. Ugh, what?

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I mean, that was my favorite fight of last year. And then you got Mazvedal coming back after losing, you know, pretty, not, you know, not a great performance against Colby Covington, had two big losses to Kamar Usman. This is, this is a weird one because on paper, it seems like two guys going in opposite directions, right? Like, Gilbert is still like a fight or two away from a title shot. Like, yes, he lost to Hamzaa, but like beating Magny and that was just, I mean, It was one side.

It was one-way traffic. I love Neil Magny, but it was, you know, he was over before it really started. I took him down, tapped him out. Great performance to Gilbert. Gilbert is like, you know, one or two fights away from knocking on that door of title contention again. Mazvedal's like one or two losses away from like, I'm not saying to me out of the UFC. Let me just, I'm not like going that far.

But I'm just saying like he was a guy who shot to start him in a hurry with that Ben Ascgren fight, knocked him out five seconds, kind of boom. He's a megastar, the Nate Diaz fight. the BMF title, that was massive. And everything since then has kind of been downhill. You know, he had the ugly fight with Usman, then he got knocked out by Usman, then he got, you know, fairly dominated by Colby.

It wasn't a one, completely one, so he had a couple of moments, but again, pretty lopsided fight. To me, this feels kind of like do or die from Azadol. Like, is he going to be a star, or is he going to be a relevant fighter in this division? Because if he loses the Gilbert Burns, there's still going to be big fights.

I mean, there's still going to be big fights for, for Horrie Mazel regardless, but he's not a guy like Connor who has just that longevity of stardom behind him. Like, at some point, people will lose interest, in my opinion. Yes, I agree.

And, it's a tough matchup for Mazvedal, if he asked me, you know, Gilbert, the biggest thing on this is Gilbert has been, how many times has Gilbert fought since Masvedal has fought last? Two times. Homsot

and Neil Magnus fought two times since then, yeah. He stays after it all the time. He loves fighting. He loves competing. He loves being in there. For a matchup like this for Mazvedal to come back to after this long layoff, coming off a loss, I think it's an uphill battle for him. But Masvedal, if he can keep it on the feet, I think he'll demolish Gilbert Burns.

I think this is almost a classic, you know, strike. versus grappler matchup. If Gilbert Burns can get him down and keep him down, work his grappling and his jiu-jitsu and his ground game, then, you know, it's Gilbert Burns favor all the way.

If Mazvedov and keep it on the feet, it is favored him all the way. But I think with Gilbert Burns, you know, staying active and staying after it, you know, I got to lean towards him. See, I disagree with. there on the striking portion though well i do agree that horay is the better overall striker uh we've seen gilbert get big knockouts i mean look at what he did with homzot they threw they and i'm not saying

like he's a better striker but he's got that punching power that he could hurt masvadol on the feet and and and and he's got that x factor being his ground game if he takes this fight to the ground and that's where masvidal has struggled you know so much of of the fight with usman and so much of the fight with colby you know not being able to break away and actually you know deal with the wrestling. I don't know that Gilbert will submit him because Mazadol has really sneakily good defensive jiu-jitsu. Like he survived with Damian Maya on the ground. But, you know, when you, when you combine this, as long as Gilbert, as long as Gilbert doesn't go out there and just swing for the fences and hope for the best, I think he wins this fight because he's got way more ways to

win, in my opinion. Like he's got, and also, you know, what, what are we going to get out of Mazadol? Like, is he, like, is he like? That's a big question, I think. You know, like, what, what, where is he at in his career right now. Like, where is he at? Like, I think he's kind of on a downward turn right now. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think we've seen any proof recently to say, man, this guy's, you know, he just had a couple of tough fights. So he got laid out by Camaro and then just lost an ugly fight to the biggest rival of his career. Guy he wanted to knock out, desperately want to knock on Colby Covington, and he didn't do it. Yeah, I think that's the big question. Where is Mazvedal going to be at? But I do think Mazvedal is going to dominate Gilbert if he can keep it on the

feet. You know, I think Hamzaa is kind of where we're saying, you know, Gilbert's got some good striking in him, but Hamzad and Mosved al are very different strikers. Like, I don't necessarily see Miles Vidal knocking out Gilbert, but I think, you know, Hamzat was going for the kill, which leaves him open to getting hit back, and that's where Gilbert was taking advantage of, you know, Hamzat coming in there thinking he's just going to knock him out and then bully him around a little bit and Gilbert just didn't stand for it. You know, he just threw a back card and Hurrahams out a couple of times. Whereas Miles Vidal is a more technical, going to pick you apart type striker.

And if I think if he can keep it there, I think he'll be able to pick Gilbert apart. You know, he'll get hit. You know, it's a fight. Just like if Gilbert takes him down, like it's not going to be an easy domination for him. But, you know, I'm leaning towards Gilbert on the ground and Miles Vidal on the feet. Is this? because I said this earlier, man, I really do believe this, is this do or die for Mazvedal being a legitimate contender, a welterweight? And I say it is because, you know, he's already lost to Usman twice.

He lost to Colby. If you lose to Gilbert, again, there's no shame in losing to those three guys. We're talking about three of the best guys in the world. But Mazadol's not a young guy anymore. It's not like he's 29 doing this. He's in his late 30s doing this. Like, if he's going to be a contender, and I'm not saying he's going to be champion, but let's be honest, If Leon Edwards can beat Usman a second time and Mazvedal can beat Gilbert Burns, they're going to fight.

Like, they're going to match up Edwards and Mazvedal because there's a huge rivalry there. But if Mazel can't beat Gilbert Burns, it all goes away. And that might, in my opinion, Matt, that might be the last time we're talking about Jorge Mazadol as a legit welterweight contender. Not saying he's going to retire and he's not going to be relevant. I'm not saying that. I'm saying like in terms of being a legitimate threat to the best welterweights in the world. he needs to win this fight. I'm right there with you.

And I think, you know, if he loses this fight, it's just a huge uphill battle for him. And he's got a lot to go back to the drawing board and overcome, got to get the right matchups. I don't think Gilbert is necessarily the best matchup for him coming back off of back-to-back losses like this. You know, respect to George Mosvedal, he's a fucking gamer, man. He comes in to bang and, you know,

he's not afraid of anyone. and he goes in there with the high skill set. But you said Gilbert's firing on all eight cylinders right now. And that's a tough spot for George Mosvedo. But, you know, I think Mazbadoll has the skills to win this fight, but can he implement those skills? And like you said, coming off these losses with the layoff, all this, man, it's because it's an uphill battle for him.

He loses. It's even more of an uphill battle. But he has the skills. be champion, I think. You know, what's funny is, is like, this fight has, like, such polar opposites in what it means for Mazda. A loss, to me, you know, kind of knocks him out of relevancy and turn out, again, doesn't mean he can't be a good, big fights, doesn't mean they can't match him up with

someone and make a big, you know, big pay-per-view. That's not it at all. He can still do that. I'm just saying, like, if he wants to be considered one of the best welterweights in the world, then on the flip side, if he wins, now, again, his fight takes place a couple weeks after Usman and Edward, so we're going to find out, you know, how much it's relevant at that point, because if Edwards loses, then it kind of goes all the way anyways, because he lost Usman twice. They would never make that fight again anyways. But if Edwards can pull off the

upset a second time, then at that point, Mazvedal's career can go in complete opposite directions. If he wins, he's getting a title shot. Like, let's just be, he's going to get a title shot. It's going to be a massive pay-per-view him and Edwards, all the backstage beefs, the fight, the two-piece and a soda, three pieces of the soda, all that comes back up. Huge fight. He loses. Suddenly, we're back on, well, I guess he could fight, you know, and we're looking at, like, you know, we're looking at, you know, outside the top 50, like, is Nate, is Nick Diaz around? Like, is Nick coming back? Like, what, like, what, you know, is he going to fight Robbie Lowe?

No, no, I'm saying, I'm saying, like, I'm saying, like, in, like, in terms of just Masmedal, like, going one way or the other. Like, he can go all the way to the top or he can go right back to what if Edwards and Mosvedol both lose then they match up you still do that fight you still do that fight that's the other one that's out there yeah the only problem is that one of them wins and one of them

loses right yeah well that's true that is true if Edwards loses and Mazvedal loses they could definitely do that fight and it still has meaning Mazvedal is still a star and Star power saves you from a lot of like I'm not saying it's fair or unfair but Star Power

saves you from a lot of ridicule when it terms in terms of your importance to the division because while I say this is kind of do or die for Mazvedal as a contender, it's also not because you're a star. You know, like him and they could match up, they could match up Mazadol and Robbie Lawler tomorrow

and that's still a big fight. They could match him up against Nick Diaz, who I don't really know if Nick Diaz should be fighting anymore, but I'm just saying like if they made that fight, it would be massive. You know what I mean? They could put Mazvedol in there with Connor, and it is still a huge pay-per-view.

Star Power, Star power saves you from like all the ways like one loss can cost a guy and they got like a, they got to go on a 10 fight win street to get back to where they were. Mazvedal's not in that case. He is a star, so it saves him from the same level of ridicule, I guess, because as you said, if Edwards loses and Mazvedal loses, they fight each other. And guess what? Still a huge fight.

Yeah, yeah. Like you said, he has big fights coming no matter what. He's the star. He's a huge star in the UFC now. Everybody loves Miles Bidal. Everybody loves watching him fight. But in terms of rankings, that's what we're, that's what really matters. Right?

In terms of rankings, he loses this fight. I don't know if he drops out of the top 10, but he goes down pretty significantly. Where's he out right now? What, four or five? He's, I think he's like maybe eight, seven or eight, something like that in the UFC rankings. In our rankings, I don't have them ranked anymore. In our MMA fighting rankings, I dropped him out because he's been out. out for a year and guys who continue to win and do things.

In my opinion, you have to, you know, you have three losses in a row. And again, they're not bad losses, but when you got guys like Shavkat Rakmanoff coming up, you got Neil Magny fighting four times a year. You got, you know, guys like that, Jeff Neal just picked up a big win, you know, all those kind of things like those guys take their spot, you know. And if he comes back and beats Gilbert Burns, of course, he's going to be ranked again. But, you know, inactivity and guys fighting, keep keeping busier and getting wins, that to me jumps your head. But yeah, Mazadol,

Mazadol is one of those rare guys. There's like three or four guys. It's like him, Nate Diaz, Connor, you know, guys that could lose, lose, lose, lose, yet they're still relevant because they're stars. Like, that's what Star Power does for you. Exactly. Those guys are always going to be relevant. We're always going to want to watch

them fight. But you know, the rankings is what matters the most. Yeah. I totally agree. Before we get out of here, Matt, I want to bring up a couple things that came up over the weekend and a little bit of your more of your world in the world of boxing. We saw that the fight between Jake Paul and Tommy Fury is finally going to happen, supposedly,

at the end of February in Saudi Arabia, this batch has been booked like four times. They're finally going to fight. Matt, I've said this on our show before, and I'll say it again now. I like Jake Paul. I think Jake Paul's a pretty decent boxer. He's not a championship box. I'm not going that for it. been a pretty decent boxer.

Have you seen Tommy Fury fight? I never watched him fight. I couldn't. I heard he does not look too good, though. He's awful. I'm never, like you would imagine, you would imagine sharing DNA

with one of the best heavyweights of our era would help you in some way become a decent boxer. He is awful. I mean, awful. Like, Tyrone Woodley is a better boxer than, then,

then, then, then, than Tommy Fury and it's not even close. Like Tommy Fury is awful. Man, Jake Paul knows how to pick him, don't he? And the backup's Mike Perry. He's got Mike Perry as a backup just in case.

Okay, okay. That's actually a pretty interesting fight. Mike Perry can box a little bit. I'd give Mike Perry a better shot than Tommy. I'd give Mike Fury. I'd give Mike Perry a much better shot to Tommy Fury. No shit, okay. I'm going to watch Tommy Fury fight.

now. I've never watched such as these circus side show fights that I have a hard time getting into. And, you know, I mean, Tom and Fury has never done anything of interest to me. So has your opinion of Jake Paul changed it all in terms of just like overall opinion of him beyond just boxing also. We also know he recently signed the deal to join the PFL. He's going to be fighting MMA. So he says, you know, there's going to take a year to train or whatever. He's going to do MMA. We know that's not easy. We know. that transition for boxers has never really gone that well

there's very few instances where it's gone anything close to well he's also starting this you know he's talking about starting this fighters association wants to get fighters on board for that we've talked about Jake a lot in the past Matt has your opinion of Jake

changed at all I never really had a negative opinion of Jake you know I've always said what he's doing you know more power to him right what he's doing it's just it's a side show It's not really boxing. What boxers do is they start amateur, you know, maybe go to the Olympics if they can,

and then they go pro after, you know, a number of fights and worked the way up the rankings. Like Jake Paul didn't do any of that. I mean, you know, he's just, he's fighting guys that aren't boxers. He's finally fighting a boxer. But I've never not had respect for what he's doing. I mean, he's making money.

He's put himself out there. He is, you know, getting in a ring with boxing gloves on throwing fists with legitimate athletes. Like Tyrone Woodley is a legitimate athlete, you know, like you better be a good boxer to beat Tyrone Woodley. I mean, he's not, you know, just some slouch whether he knows how to box or not. I mean, the dude is a world-class athlete. So, you know, I'm never taking anything away from Jake Ball, but, you know, it's just

it's not boxing. So I just see it as a completely different thing altogether. It's almost like WWE versus freestyle wrestling, right? It's just two completely different things. even though what Jake Paul is doing is probably real. But so, you know, yeah, more power to him, man. You know, I'm going to see what he can do. I don't mind watching it.

And I don't usually watch it, but it doesn't excite me to watch it. But it's cool, right? Here's what I give Jake credit for. It's entertaining. He makes it entertaining. And I think that's one thing boxers and MMA fighters in general could take away. from that. I'm not saying you need to become Jake Paul because not everyone's going to be Jake Paul and that's totally okay. But he makes it entertaining. Like I said, there's a million boxes you can name right now, Matt, that I've never heard of. Not because I don't follow boxing as closely as you do. I know the big names. I know the champions. I know the Tank Davis's and I know the Tyson Furies and I know the Alexander Ousick's and names like that. But when you go down the list like the number five guy who you think's a monster and whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah, probably never heard. heard of him. Why? Because they just don't, they don't, they don't promote it and they don't kind of

cross over boundaries. And credit to Jake Paul for doing that, because he is making it entertaining. He's made, because whether we like to admit it or not, Matt, combat sports has some relativity to entertainment. And, and people are drawn to that. And Jake Paul makes it entertaining. Yeah, I thought when you were talking about boxing a week, I thought you're going to talk about the better be of match. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, yeah. Well, that's, you're talking, Yeah, there you go. Like that's a name like I was kind of, I knew who he was. I was not super familiar.

But there's another example. Like a guy who's really good, but just doesn't really break through the mainstream kind of, you know, like barrier or whatever you want to call it. But yeah, like that's what I'm talking about. Guys could, guys could, what I'm getting at is guys could take a bit of a lesson from, you know, from Jake Paul in that regard to make themselves a little bit more marketable, make themselves a little bit bigger in terms of attention. because he does a good job at that. Yeah, that's a good point. Again, I don't take anything away from him. You know, like what he's doing, he's out there making money.

He's putting himself on the line, you know, regardless of the opponents that he's fighting. I just don't consider him a boxer, you know. That's all it comes down to. I mean, like he's not good. Like, if he goes up against Canelo, he's getting demolished, right? If he goes against Bairbayev, I mean, he's getting fucking. ridiculously demolished.

I get a dude is amazing. He had an amazing performance over the weekend. You know, his only problem is his age, right? Like, it's where, you know, I think you're going to hear more about the guy in the coming time. And I wish everybody would have watched that match over the weekend. I mean, he's a fucking amazing boxer. But look, Jake Paul, he's doing good things, man.

He's out there. He's getting the sport more in the mainstream. More people are talking about it. More people are getting into boxing. And I think his road to MMA, if he does, MMA, is probably not as big as most boxers would be, right? Because you talk about boxers crossing over. You know, he's not really a boxer. So, you know, I think he wrestled here in Ohio for a long time.

So he has a good base there. I know his brother was a really good wrestler. So that wrestling base is going to do more for him than the boxing base. But, you know, honestly, his boxing skills right now are good enough to carry him to a pretty high level in MMA. And with his wrestling skills, you know, assuming that he's keeping him sharp and he was a decent wrestler in Ohio. I mean, Ohio is not a joke for wrestling.

You know, it's one of the toughest states there is next to Pennsylvania. So, look, he has a high ceiling in MMA. Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree. I just hope that, you know, he takes it serious. because, you know, I mean, listen, I'm not saying that like, Cloresa Shields didn't take it seriously, but like we saw from her first time stepping in there, it was just, she just wasn't ready. She just was not ready for what she was going to fit.

Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly. She is a boxer, boxer. And here's the difference, too, when Jake Paul comes to MMA, I think one thing he's going to discover is these guys that he's fought in these so-called boxing matches, you know, for one, he fought all, you know, older guys and, you know, I don't know, I'm not going to call them washed up, but, you know, guys that, you know, they weren't boxers and they were older. Look, these M.A guys, I know a lot of M.A fighters, even fighters that aren't good, they're fucking lions, man. But they're starving, blood-hungry lions. Like, it's a different beast. Like, boxers are generally, there's some beast boxers, too, but generally, like, they're athletes.

playing a skill game. Like when you get into MMA fighters, like these guys are just savage fucking beasts, man. Like they're lions coming for blood. Yeah, and Jake's got to be aware of that because, you know, there's not like, you know, can he win an MMA fight? Sure. There's fights just by anyone could win an MMA or boxing or any

air sport. You get the right matchup. You know, there's a way to win. We've seen that. But yeah, I mean, man, like I said, it's not easy. and, you know, all eyes are going to be on him. And, you know, it's all about matchups, so on and so forth.

But, you know, dude, you've trained your entire life. You know, you've trained your entire life to do this to do M.A. And it's still an impossibly hard sport. You know what I mean? Doing it and doing it well. Now, again, I'm not saying they're going to throw Jake Paul in there with, you know, the best, you know, welterweights or middle weights in the world, whatever weight class is going to fight at.

He's not going to be fighting Adasanya. He's not going to be fighting Kumar Usman or Leon Edwards. We all know that. But, you know, even 1 and 0 guys, 2 and 0 guys in MMA are dangerous to a Jake Paul. Because, as you said, MMA guys are savage, man. And they want to, like I said, there's guys out there who you've never heard of who are badasses. And they don't care that Jake Paul is good. They don't care that Jake Paul is a name.

They want to take out Jake Paul. Again, I know, again, it's a different example. But like I said, it's like what happened to Clarissa Shield. She was fighting so-called nobody, right? She was fighting a nobody. Somebody she should. And she got more or less dominated her second fight. She lost the most majority of her first fight, too.

And then she came back in one. But that's the reality. Even the fights you're supposed to win are not a guarantee in MMA. Not like boxing, right? There's a million. There's so much predictability in boxing at the lower level, right? Like, you know, Canello is never going to fight a guy in his third pro fight who has absolutely any chance whatsoever beating him.

None. It's not going to happen. In MMA, you don't have that option. You cannot predict that a guy with no experience is just going to mollywop his competition. You cannot predict that in MMA. That's exactly. It's a different piece, man. These guys are savages.

And you can pick the right match up and still lose. There's so many different ways to lose. It's just a different beast, man. Like the type of people that choose this sport for a living are just a different animal altogether. And, I mean, we've seen it. How many guys have come over from different sports? excel crazy at their sport. And then they come to M.A.

And again, you're just dealing with different animals altogether, man. These guys are savages. And, you know, you look at Marcelo Garcia, Andrea Galvao, you know, these jiu-jitsu guys. Like, they could, they should dominate the fuck out of everyone. But they can't do it because it's a different beast. They're not used to that intensity. They're not used to the, you know, God, it's hard to even describe what it is, man.

Like these guys, you know, you take them down, they punch you from the back, right? You pass their guard, their elbow and you from side control. You're just like, what in the hell is wrong with this guy? Like, why does he keep doing this? Like, you know, and boxers, it's the same thing, man. These boxers that, you know, they're used to just outskilling guys, you know, using their fast footwork, athleticism, and speed and all this. And there's so many ways to overcome that.

in the May. That's what makes his sport so beautiful. There's so many ways to victory. And that's why it's so much more impressive when you see, you know, you know, guys like John Jones or Demetrius Johnson just is in there dominating title after title, you know, versus guys, you know, like a Floyd Mayweather who's, you know, winning 20 title defenses, you know, picking when he fights which guy and, you know, putting them in, uh, tough positions and, you know, it's just so much more impressive to me. No, I agree. And also to that point, like, when you talk about crossover athletes from other sports,

like the only guys who come into M.MA or girls, for that matter, who come to M. and I'm like, that's a fighter, you got to watch. That's a prospect of wrestlers. Like, Bo Nichael, I'm a big Bo Nickle believer. That dude's a monster. When Kyle Snyder was talking about coming over, I said, if Kyle Snyder does MMA, he's the best prospect this sport's ever seen, day one. Like without a doubt, that guy's so explosive, so dominant in wrestling.

He's going to be a prospect on day one. But Ed Ruth is a monster. Ed Ruth was a four-time national champion, and he's had struggles in MMA. He's like eight and three. Like, he's a good fighter, but he's still not developed into that great fighter. Bo Nicol, I think, is a guy who could be an absolute star. He may be a future middleweight champion. But he's still got to go in there, and there's still no guarantees.

MMA is the most unpredictable sport, which is why we all love it. And here's a question for you, Matt. I'm going to throw you here. I'm chasing headlines here, Matt. You're an Ohio guy. You have an Ohio-based gym. Jake Paul, of course, is from Ohio. He's from Cleveland.

He's from the state. Would you train Jake Paul? Of course I would train him. I mean, I train, you know, look, when I look at training guys, I don't look at, you know, how much money I can make off of them. I don't look at, you know, necessarily whether they're going to be champions. I don't look at that stuff. I look at, are you going to be loyal?

Are you going to have integrity? You're going to represent. Right? I've kicked out multiple guys from my gym that were good fighters, high-level guys with tons of potential, but they don't show the loyalty and the integrity. They don't show the respect. And that's all that I look for.

That's all I care about. So Jake Paul came in, showed the respect, and showed the integrity, showed that he's a good. good person that I want to be around, then of course I would train them and not even caring about the money. One thing that, you know, like my entire objective when I opened my gym was I want a place that I want to walk into every day, a place that I enjoy being every single day, because I'm on the mats every single day.

So I want a place that I enjoy being. If you bring in bad energy to my gym, then, and you make me not enjoy being. there, then I don't want you around. So that probably completely fucks up your headline, but that's really what it comes down to, right? Like there's this is what a lot of people may not recognize like, you know, think of like your workplace. Like if you work in an office, you know, these people listening.

If you work in an office or if you work in a factory, like one bad person can ruin the entire vibe and now you hate your fucking job. If you're around great people, even if you're doing a misconduct, you're doing a misconduct. job, you can enjoy it. Like, this is my office, this is my laboratory. When I'm on those mats all the fucking time, all

day long, until I come to podcast with Damon. I'm on the mats all the time. I want to enjoy it. I'm too old for that bullshit where I go in and, you know, just want to get the hardest rounds and just get the

you know, just grind hard as I can and try to fight everybody in the gym. And, you know, all this kind of stuff. Like, dude, I want to enjoy my day. And so going back to the original question, if Jake Paul made my day enjoyable, then yes, I would absolutely train him. I get the feeling he probably would. He's a character.

He seems like he's a hard worker. And, you know, he does seem like the type of guy that would, you know, be kind of a loyal guy. I mean, he comes across to me that way. I don't follow him that closely to say, but he comes across to me that way. Yeah, you know, I only know Jake a little bit from interviewing him, you know, a couple times and I know people around him and everything, you know, you got all the social media stuff and, you know, he's promoting himself and good for him. But like everything I hear about him off that, like when it's just the cameras are off

and he's just being Jake Paul, everyone says he's a good dude. He works hard. He trains his ass off. He's serious about it. You know, you can sit here in question how serious he is when you look at. some of the guys he's fought. Okay, fine, but, you know, he's making money. I'm not going to, like, like I said,

Tyre Woodley is a bigger fight than some one and O boxer would actually be a tougher fight for him because no one knows that guy. Everyone knows Tyre Woodley. Everyone knows Anderson Silva. Everyone knows, you know, Ben Asker and whatever the case may be. So I don't fault him for any of that. And he seems like he is a hard worker. I'm making that connection, man, only because, like I said, you have a gym.

You have one of the biggest gyms in Ohio. He's from Ohio. I just, and I think your style, I think it's interesting. Like you have a style with your clinch work, with your elbows, the weapons that he could incorporate from boxing and still use an MMA. Like, I think it would be an interesting part. And, of course, you also got the legend. Mark Deharmre Coleman works up at your gym. Like, talk about who could you have better to teach your wrestling for the first time or help you improve your wrestling?

A guy like that. I don't know. I just think it popped on my head. I was like, I think that would be a good partnership. Like, because, listen, Jake doesn't need to do this. He doesn't need to fight MMA. He doesn't. He's making, listen, I don't, he's fighting Tommy Fury, a fight that I think he will win and win handily.

He could fight, you know, I don't know, I'm just making stuff up. But he could fight Mike Perry after that. He could fight Nate Diaz after that. He could fight Nick Diaz after that and make millions upon millions of dollars, never have to work another day in his life, continue to just do what he does in boxing, and never have to even bother with MMA. The fact that he wants to do it, the fact that he's saying, I'm going, now again, he hasn't done it yet, But the fact that he's saying, I want to fight MMA, I've signed with PFL to start developing my MMA career, says a lot to me because he doesn't have to do this.

This is not like I want to do this to make money thing. This is a, I want to do this to prove myself kind of thing. And kudos to him, man. Like, you know what I mean? Like, kudos to him because he doesn't need to do this. Yeah, I'm not sure what his whole plan is here, right? Because he wants to talk about he wanted to be a real boxer, right? want to go. You can't train

MMA and box and go box and go boxers. You know, you're going up against guys that are only working their hands, boxing for six, eight hours a day versus guys that have to do you know, if you're trained in MMA, now you got to do jih Tijuana, you got to do wrestling,

you got to do clench, you got to do kickboxing, you know, and then you got to do some boxing. And the sports are very, very different. That's why when these guys go over into boxing, I'm never too sure about it, no matter how good of boxing they were in MMA. When you go over into boxing, I mean, there's just so many things that change and so many adjustments that you have to make, not only to the fight itself, but to the training and the

lifestyle. The entire culture is different. I'm just not sure what his goal is, you know, which one is he want to do. And it's cool if he wants to do MMA. but again, you're in a different world now when you're fighting MMA fighters. You're in a world of fucking savages. It's not to say that there's not a lot of boxers out there that aren't savages, but there's a lot more athletes that are great boxers than there are, you know,

savages that are great boxers. There's a few and far between that have some of both. Now, in MMA, I would say it's kind of, of the opposite. There's a lot of savage sons of bitches, and then there's a few at the top that have kind of both. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And that's the thing.

Like, you know, if I was going to offer one piece of advice to Jake Paul coming in in MMA, I would say, just take it very seriously because there's no playing around in MMA. Like, there is no, like, you're not going to get, like, you're sure, you can get a couple of matchups early on to give you some confidence or whatever, but even those are not guaranteed because it's a, a million fights we've seen where someone is supposed to win and they don't. And your room for error,

your room for arrow is zero in MMA. Like, you cannot met you like that, MMA, if MMA was going to have a slogan, Matt, MMA would be the sport where the slogan is, fuck around and find out.

Like, that is literally the slogan of MMA. Because if you don't do one thing right, your opponent will make you pay. They will kick your legs. They will elbow your face. They will take you down and mall you on the ground. They will submit you.

They will choke you out. They will snap. an arm, they will snap a leg. You are in danger in every single position in MMA. There is no escaping that. So if you're doing it, good for you. I'm kind of with you, Matt. I don't really know why, but good for you.

He doesn't need to do this, so whatever. But please, no, you better take it seriously because there is no playing MMA. You do not play MMA. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you don't really play boxing either, but, you know,

like you said, even if you get the right matchup, you know, these guys, MMA, it's just a different beast, man. These guys will go out

and they'll just throw for the fucking fences for no reason at all. Like, you know, you might come up against, you know, Litter Garcia.

He lost five in a row, but this dude's going to wing, like, wild windmill punches and not give a fuck if you hit him. You just don't know what you're getting into with these guys.

You might get a guy, again, he's lost, One of my fighters had his pro debut match the other day, and he was going up against a guy who was 0 and 3. And we're like, oh, this is going to be easy. And then he gets in there. And, you know, this dude suddenly is like showing all kinds of these skills.

Where how was this dude fucking 0 and 3? Now, my dude ended up beating his ass. But we're like, how did he lose to, you know, the guy that my guy, my fighter, is a very, very talented kid. going to be to the UFC at one day. But I'm like, how did this guy lose three before?

Like is there, you know, is there, is he only fighting guys that are as good as my guy? So, you know, that's, you just don't know in the sport, man,

there's so many ways to win, so many ways to lose. And like you said, you're, you're never safe, man. You're, you're never safe in the sport. Guys will,

I mean, how many times in boxing do you see guys pull out something, you know, in the last couple rounds after losing, for, you know, six or seven rounds in the eight ground, they pull it out. Whereas in MMA, how often do you see guys losing 13 minutes of a fight and win in the last two minutes? Like, it's not even that uncommon at the lower levels, you know, like these guys pull shit

out all the time. So, yeah, so I think Jake Paul needs to, as long as he's got the right people around to understand these kind of things and tell them these kinds of things, and he's not a stupid kid. I'm sure he's watching. He knows what's going on. And, you know, he's going to get himself the right matchups where I know this. And PFL's going to help him get the right matchups. You're going to sell great fights. But it's not going to be so easy. It's not going to be

so straightforward as boxing. Yeah, no, I totally agree. I totally agree. Well, there you go, Jake Paul. You got an open invite. Come to the Immoral Training Center in Columbus, Ohio, and Matt Brown will teach you a thing or two. Yeah, I think we could have some fun. But I don't think he lives in Ohio. No, he lives, he was training down. I want to say in Puerto Rico, and then he obviously lives out in L.A.

So, I mean, there's obviously good gyms everywhere. But, you know, like I said, it's an Ohio thing. Come back to your roots, man. Come back to Ohio, you know, like grind. Like, that's not, that's also when you come to Ohio, you're getting away from the glitz and glam. There's no paparazzi around here trying to take your photo, you know what I mean? So come back here to, you know, just train with the, train with the badass is in Ohio

where you're from because that's the kind of mentality you have if you're taking an MMA seriously. Because, like I said, there is. there is no playing MMA. You are not playing in this sport. But at the same time, don't bring the paparazzi here either, motherfucker. That's the last thing Matt Brown wants

is paparazzi, you're outside of the gym. Yeah. Well, folks, we're going to get out of here. Obviously, we appreciate everyone tuning in each and every week to Fighter versus Rider. Make sure you check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and of course over on the best website in the world,

MMAfighting.com. Matt, anything you got going on? You want to plug? Tell people where they can find you, all that good stuff? Yeah, man, you check me out on social media. I'm The Immortal on Twitter and Instagram. Oh, man, you get a little bit of everything. You know, check out my instructionals on Dynamic Striking.

Got a couple more coming. Got working on my own online curriculum. I'm going to build my own website with a full MMA curriculum. And that's going to be striking, wrestling. clinching, jiu-jitsu, everything to do with MMA, strength and conditioning, everything. I got the whole outline made, and we've been filming a little bit. So I teach classes at my gym.

We're going to be filming the classes. So you're going to watch other people learn as you can learn too, right? So you'll see the mistakes that a lot of beginners make and see me correcting them. So I'm pretty excited about that, man. It's going to be a lot of work, but we're putting the work into it. And it might end up being in the summertime before it gets done because I'm probably going to be fighting pretty soon. Probably in March or April is what I'm hoping for. So I'm ramping things back up, gearing up for the next fight, getting the weight down, getting the cardio up, and ready to hammer away, man.

And I'm being fueled by The Immortal Coffee at the immortal coffee. At the immortal coffee.com. And routine by my nutritional. something that R-O-O-T-I-N-E. Damn it. Routine. There you go. Check it all out and support Matt

as Matt continues to do the show with me. As always, I want to say a thank you to everyone tuning in each and every week to Fighter versus Rider. We'll be back next week. Of course, this week we got Fador's final fight.

We got the UFC card and then we got a roll into some more UFC cards coming up in the next couple weeks. We've got lots to talk about. So stay tuned for all that. And we'll see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Ryder.

Thanks for tuning in. See you then. To the Vox Media Podcast Network.