MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reveals How Arman Tsarukyan Can Win at UFC 311, Is Islam Makhachev Reaching GOAT Status at Lightweight?

Episode Date: January 14, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin preview UFC 311, Matt reveals how Arman Tsarukyan could pull off the upset and we discuss if Islam Makhachev deserves to be mentioned in the GOAT conversation at lightweight alongside his coach and mentor Khabib Nurmagomedov plus much more Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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But first, there, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes. To the Vox Media Podcast Network. To the fighter versus the writer, I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, we are back after a little hiatus for the holidays. And right after I come back, I get COVID. It's like a celebration around here.

Yeah, no, right? Well, that's what happens when the UFC isn't on. Everybody gets sick. Yeah, get sick during the time when you don't have fights to cover. I guess it's a benefit, I suppose. It is a benefit, but it feels like it's been a long time since we've seen a UFC, doesn't it? It does, it does. We had one over the weekend, not exactly the greatest card in the history, but we did have a card,

but it all kind of led to this. UFC 311 this weekend. Massive, massive card, two title fights. Yuri Perhoshka fighting Jamal Hill. We got Reiner to Ritter taken on Kevin. in Holland, Benil Daryush against Sanato Moikano. We are hitting the ground running on Saturday night. And of course, the main event is, I'm excited for that one.

Yeah, it's a really, really good card start in the year. So before we get started on the fight, so how was your holidays? How was everything with you and the family? I had a great holiday, had a win on a ski trip with the kids, enjoyed a little break from podcasting for a little bit. but now I miss it now we're back and get to talk about some big fights coming up

absolutely USC 311 man I love that they're just kind of like hitting the ground running with a big car right away and I tell you what this lightweight title fight it's been I gotta be honest it's been a little while

since I've actually like looked at an Islam Makatcha fight and said he might not win now I'm not saying he won't win I'm just saying like when he when he fought dust and I love dust support

I think we all know dust support is the legend I love it but I was pretty confident Islam was winning. You know what I mean? And matchup was. Matchup. Even Volcanozky. Like give credit to Volcanowski.

He gave him a really hard fight the first time around. Like harder than I imagined him doing. But even then I was like, I think Islam's going to win. Like here's why I think Volcanowski could do well, but I think Islam's going to win. I'll be honest. Saturday night, there's a little more hesitation because Armin's a beast, you know, 28 years old, looking like a phenon. Like, this is a tough fight.

And it looks like Armin is really coming into his own. out, right? Like, he's really, they fought before, right? And it was a good fight, but Islam came out on top. But since then, I feel like Armin has improved a lot. And he's really, like I said, just kind of come into his own. Like he's really found his way, you know, found out who he is and what he likes to do. And he's certainly an athlete that can, he's going to give Islam some problems, you know, 99% chance. Whether it's enough to beat Islam, because Islam's also already came into his own. So, you know, it's not like he has an easy night in front of them. But I expect this to be a back and forth fight. Well, what I like about this is because, you know, obviously Islam's a little older. You know, he's more of the veteran here. And like I said, I think Arm is 28.

You know as well as I do, Matt, like when a guy, like when the division or a fighter catches up to him, sometimes it happens in a hurry. Like, as great as Islam has been, you know, someone eventually, Essentially, outside of John Jones, no, everyone catches up to everyone. Like, that's just part of the sport, right? Like, Khabib, who is, of course, Islam's trainer and mentor. He retired before that really got there. And I'm not blaming him, by the way.

I'm just saying, like, we never really saw him challenge because he literally retired at the peak of his career. Like, he was still the number one guy in the sport. He walked away. John Jones is kind of like the one guy where you could say, well, you know, Dominic Reyes. Again, I'm not taking anything away from those guys. But there's part of me, it's like, was John Jones? It's like, was John really there? Like, did John really care at that point?

Like, you know what I mean? Like, when John cares, John wins. But outside of that, everyone catches up. Like, at some point, every champion has that moment where the competitor catches up to them. Is that Armin Sarukian? I don't know, but I feel like this is the toughest test he's had in a while. For sure, the toughest test he's had no while. Like I said, you know, we seen him fight the first time, right?

And it was a good fight, some good. crambles, like Armin got some things, Islam got some things, but Islam was a step ahead. Has Armin caught up with him? I'm not totally convinced based off of all of his performances. But he's going to get, you know, when we fight, you know, it's all about, excuse me, it's all about those opportunities and taking the opportunities when they present themselves. They will present themselves. These guys are very equally matched.

And it's about who takes that opportunity when the opportunity comes up. right a lot of these scrambles and you know particularly like you know a lot of them are just races right it's just a race you know who's going to put their hand who's going to get the risk control first who's going to you know get the arm around the leg you know it's just those tiny little battles that i call races and um you know armin might you know be a little bit more fired up that night he's certainly um but i say he's certainly peaking out in his career um As an athlete, I think, you know, 28's a great age to be fighting for a title. He's going to be hungry.

He's going to be firing on all these cylinders, I think. Here's my question. And I know this is like a weird comparison, Matt, but here's what I would say. He's like, here's the thing. The Armin, if you look at Armand's best performances, it's when he's being able to go out there and really control the pace, control the wrestling, control the grappling. Now, you look at his one loss more recently, which was a while ago, but he had that loss to Matush Gamrod.

Now, that was a battle. That was a great fight. Could have easily gone either way. But we all know Gamrod is also an incredible wrestler. He did not allow Armand to control that pace, control his grappling and things like that. You look at what he did to, you know, you basically beat Charles O'Averro by out grappling him. He got on top of him and beat him up from the top. He didn't get some bit from the bottom.

And he went out there. I mean, he didn't have to do that against Benadere Ush because the fight never made it that far. But my question is, like, it kind of reminds me a little bit of like Kamaro Oussman and Colby Covington. because Colby Covington, up until recently, kind of went out there and just kind of grinds and takes everybody down and out wrestles them and they can't keep up with it. Kamara Usman is seemingly a better wrestler for MMA. So Colby couldn't really use that game plan against him.

And while Colby still had moments, he never was able to employ that classic Colby Covington game plan against Kamara Usman. Kamar Usman kind of didn't either, but he knew. Like there's a reason why Kobe didn't go out there and try to shoot doubles on Kamauro. I think we saw that. I wonder if this feels a little bit like the Gamrod fight where it's like does Armand want to try to go for the takedowns knowing that he might get reversed,

knowing that he might end up on bottom. Because if I'm being honest, Matt, I think Armin's an incredible grappler, but I don't think there's anybody better right now in the world in terms of grappling and wrestling than Islamakash. In terms of like the top of the sport, I know we consider and say like, you know, Bo Nichols is a better wrestler.

Yes, I understand. Bo Nichols is a better wrestler. But I'm talking like purely MMA. Like, I don't know there's any better wrestler or grappler than Islam Ocatchev. And so I wonder, like, does that negate one of Armand's best weapons right out of the gate? Yeah, it's a great question. That's going to be TBD, right? That's what they're going to fight for.

Go see. But you got to think Armands probably, again, it's been a long time. You know, he's been in the UFC for a while now. And he's going to be looking to probably set up his takedown a little better, right? He's going to be looking to throw some punches, get him thinking about his hands a little bit, thinking about his striking, try to get in and get some takedowns off of that

versus just, you know, is I'm certainly not the guy that you can spam takedowns on. It's interesting. There's a lot of parallels between this fight and the co-main event, Marab and Umar, right? Where, you know, we're going to find out, like, can they shoot, can Marab shoot on Umar like he did on everybody else? Can, um, Armin, you know,

shoot these shots like he did on everybody else. And it's kind of TBD. And that's what makes it so excited. But, you know, he's dead. I think Armand definitely has to set him up a little better than he has in the past. And not get set up by Islam at the same time, right? That's the game they're playing. So let me ask you, man.

I always like picking your brain as a coach because, again, you coach a lot of great fighters in your own right. Now, I don't think it's any, I don't think there's going to be any giant secret to what Islam McCachia wants to do because he's a very dynamic guy. I know he gets pegged a lot as just a wrestler, but he's actually a pretty good striker. He's like, you know, I don't think anyone's going to call him a little better all the time, right? Yeah, but a lot of power, you know what I mean? He's showed good boxing, got good head kicks. Like he showed some diversity in that. But we've seen so much Islam. We kind of have an idea what he's going to do. Armine, I think, is a little bit more of a of a puzzle just because, you know, again, like what he did, what he did Charles Olivero was a lot of

wrestling and grappling on top. And it was a close fun. like, you know, Charles still gave him problems from the bottom. And he kind of blew through Benile Daryush, so it is what it is. So if you were coaching Armin Sauruqi and Matt, like, what would the game plan be? Because, like, Islam, in a lot of ways, is a puzzle that's never been really solved. I mean, you talk about the guy's lost a couple of rounds. And I know he lost early in his UFC career. That's so long ago.

It feels like a different guy, right? Like, that was like, you know, nine years ago. He got caught. Credit. He got caught. and that can happen to anybody. But outside of that factor, like, oh, he's going to go out there and clip it with a shot in the first 30 seconds. That can happen to anybody.

But if you were trying to, like, when you were trying to compose a game plan or a strategy, what would it be? What is the way to beat Islam? Well, it's obviously not going to be easy. I mean, it's pretty straightforward, though, right? You got to beat them with a jab. You got to, you know, or a teep or, you know, whatever long distance weapon of choice that you like. you're going to have to start beating him there first. If he's able to set his striking Islam,

he's going to start controlling the pace of the match, and it's going to be a big problem. You know, if I am coaching Armin, I'm going to try to do that first. I think Islam has the reach on him, so I think that's going to be an issue with doing that. You know, so maybe start setting teeps and, you know, some of the longer-range weapons kicks

and things like that. but try to get Arman to shoot or Islam to shoot on you, which we know he's going to do. But, you know, I think Armin can give him a lot of problems, you know, just wearing him out because he's not going to easy. Arm's obviously not easy to take down. But, you know, I think getting Islam to shoot on you, because shooting on him, especially when they're fresh,

you know, it's going to be whoever shoots is going to got to be the guy willing to expend that energy. And you got to believe in your defense if Islam is, to shoot on him and take him down. Obviously, that's a problem. But, you know, you're going to have, he's going to have to believe in his weapons. But, and ultimately what I'm saying is, look,

he's got to set him up to force him to want to shoot. You got to win in the striking battle. It's just like if they're wrestling, like you got to win in the hand fight and force him to take a bad shot. Yeah. And we saw, like, if there's one thing, because I talked to Grand Dawson,

he fights this weekend also. I was asking him because he trains with Armin down an American top team. And I was like, I'm not going to ask you to make a pick because that's kind of unfair. I ask you to pick against your teammate or whatever. But he said that he actually picked Armin to win. The reason he did it, he's like, I'm not sitting there telling him that Armand is the better fighter. He's like, but I think that the weight cut is going to eventually catch up to Islam. And I think it's going to because he was like, he's like, you know, I saw it when he fought Dustin because he's really close with Dustin.

Dustin's a good friend of his. They share the same head coach, Mike Brown. And he's like, I saw it in the weight cut. and I saw it in the fight. Like he started fading a little bit in that fourth round. Now, to his credit, he caught that Dars and, you know, submitted Dustin in the fourth round and got to win. But he's like, I think that could be a concern. He's like, I'm not even saying that Armin is a better fighter, more skilled fighter than Islam.

But that weight cut, as you get older, things, like, I think it could come back to bite him. So is there any part of like conditioning? Could that be a, like, could that be a weapon for Armin in this fight? Yeah, so I guess that goes right back, it plays right into what I'm saying. Like, you got to start wearing on them. You know, I look at them as if it's two wrestlers fighting. Like, if they were going at a wrestling match, I would tell them, you know, don't take any stupid shots. Like if something opens up, obviously take it.

But don't take any stupid shots. Wear on him, wear on his head constantly, snap him down a lot, you know, and try to get him, force him into taking the bad shot. Being that this is MMA, it basically is the same thing. You know, set a good team, set a good jab, move your feet well, stay fundamental on the feet, force him into bad shots and that's going to start wearing him out. Again, maybe he gets one of those takedowns, but you got to believe in your defense. You got to believe that you're going to be able to defend his shots.

I think Armin has a solid defense. And, you know, if he does get the takedown, look, you know, work your way back to defeat, you know, make him do that four or five, six times, right? And then when we get into those fourth rounds, now you can start taking your shots. But I think, you know, when you're arm in, it's really going to come down or Islam. it's going to come down to those strikes, right?

Who's going to get the better setups? Who's going to get the better angles, right? The better jabs, things like that. And that's what's going to set the pace of the match. And again, you can make the parallel directly to wrestling, right? If you're wrestling someone that you know they're a step ahead of you a little bit better, you want to start wearing them out. You want to win the hand fight battle.

And it's kind of the same thing here. Yeah. So to that point, let's talk real quick predictions, because those will lead into my next question. Listen, there's been a lot of time you're talking about how can Arm and win? But, you know, Islam Makacham has kind of reached a little bit of a point in my mind now

where it's like, until he loses, I have a hard time picking against him. Now I know that sounds like a dumb logic. Like, I have to watch him lose to pick against him. But like, until I see a real chink in his armor, until I see a real like, you know, where I'm like, man, maybe he's losing his step. Maybe he's just catching up to him.

Maybe the weight cut is catching up to him. There's just nothing I've seen. Like I know like there's this weird narrative that he was like losing the Dastoporrii fight. And I'm like, huh? Like what, what fight? Did we watch the same fight? Like, did Dustin have moments and did Dustin like stick around? Absolutely.

But was Dustin winning? No. So I'm kind of at that mindset, Matt. Like I think Arm is a tremendous competitor. I think he's a, I think this could be again. Like I said earlier, a fight where I'm not just, you know, 100% positive that Islam's is going to walk out as champion. But much like John.

Jones, there's a certain aura around this guy where I'm just like, and again, kind of like Kabir, where it's like, yeah, he could do this, he could do that, he's got this weapon, he's got that weapon, but I'm picking Islam. And that's kind of where I'm at now. It's like, I think Armand's tremendous. But Islam has shown me nothing to think that

he's slowing down. I almost feel like Islam's got a little bit of that Kabib in where it's like, if he feels like it's time to retire, he'll actually just walk away. Like I don't think he'll stick around too long. I don't get that sense about Islam where he's like I should have retired four fights ago. So until I see something to convince me otherwise, I'm picking Islam.

I just, I can't pick otherwise. Yeah, it's hard to pick against them and kind of going back to what I was just saying. If I was Armin's coach, I'd say you got to win the jab battle. You got to get things set up with strikes. Islam striking has improved tremendously over the years. And I feel like that's going to be the problem here for Armin is he's not going to be able to do what I would. tell him to do if i was coaching him and look like you got to tell him something like you asked me what would i tell him what would i tell him like you know you can't tell him look go out go out and spam

shots because you can't strike with them right that that would be pretty poor advice um so again i don't think he'll be able to do what i would suggest that he needs to do but i think there's going to be the telltale the fight and i think uh islam striking has improved enough that um you know he's going to start, he's going to win those battles and that's going to play right into him imposing his will, at least for the most part, in the grappling. Like he'll probably win those tiny little battles. I'll talk about the little races and he'll probably be able to win those and be a step ahead of Armin for most of the fight.

I think Armin will have his moments and may even expose some vulnerabilities in Islam, but for the most part, I think Islam's going to, he has what it takes to get his hand race at the end of this night. So let me ask this question, Matt, and I know this is going to stir a little bit of controversy only because of who it involves. But if Islam wins on Saturday night, that will be his fourth consecutive lightweight title defense. And that's the most of all time. That actually breaks a record held by his coach and friend. Could be Braga-Metoff. He had three title defenses.

Now, I think we talked about this briefly going into the Poria fight, but that's, you know, it feels like ages ago, which is basically seven months ago. But we talked about, like, what the, like, is there a world where is there? Islam could capture that, that mythical title of the greatest lightweight of all time. And I know the argument's going to be, could be retired undefeated. Like he never got, he had a single blemish on his record. He retired in 29 and 0, and I think he never lost a round. And you know that that's not the case for Islam. He hasn't lost a fight.

He lost a couple rounds to Alexander Volcanowski. He arguably lost a round, I think, to Dustin. You know, he's not been on that same, just purely dominant path that Khabi has been on. But I'm a big believer in title. defenses and this lightweight division has been around forever. One of the reasons we praise Steepa so much in heavyweight. Three doesn't sound, three title defenses doesn't sound like a lot. But when you look at Randy Couture, Mark Coleman, you know, all the long list of great

heavyweights and it took Steepay to get to three, there's a reason why we say Steepa is the greatest UFC heavyweight because that's the mark of a champion. So if Islam goes out and wins in any way fashion, and again, I don't care if it's a split decision or it's a third round submission, he wins the fight on Saturday. He is now a four-time defending lightweight champion. Is there a world where we start, where we have to start talking about him as the greatest lightweight in the world, or is that, are those blemishes on his record, losing rounds and actually having a loss, again, nine years ago, whatever it was, but it's a loss.

Is that always going to keep, and I know he doesn't care. But let me be clear about this. I know Islam and Kabib aren't sitting around saying, I'm better, I'm better. I don't think they care. I think they're both happy to be one and one-A if that's the way we look at it. But for us, like, is there a world where Islam could unanimously become, well, when I say unanimously, because it's never going to be unanimous, but could he get the majority of people believing he's the greatest lightweight of all time? Or does Kabim, is just like one of those

marks where it's like Kibib has done something so special. It's almost like John Jones-a-le-le-Heav-weight. Like, I don't, it would take so much for somebody to do that, to be, for me to say you're better than John Jones-a-heavyweight. Like, I love Alex Pereira. He's, still not even in the same stratosphere as John Jones in terms of like light heavyweight records. Like is there a word or we just is he just like is it just an uphill battle because of what could be was and who he was and what he did? Well, I mean, you know, like you said, it's a very subjective thing, especially where they're out right now, right?

I mean, you know, like John Jones is to the point where there's not really a lot of debate, right? The only debate is, you know, steroid stuff, right? That's literally your only argument of him being the greatest of all time. or not. You know, when you look at his record, he's the greatest of all the time, period, right? It's just a fact. But yeah, I think Armin is still in that phase, not Armin, Islam. If he beats Armin, he's still in that phase of like, there's some debate. Right. And for me, personally, the losses don't take away from that, right? You can't say, like, well, he had a loss and he didn't. Like you lose when you fight above your competition, your level, right?

If Khabib would have fought, you know, I don't know, B.J. Pinn, like for his debut pro fight, like BJ Pry would have beat him, right? I don't know. Like, you know, maybe it's a bad example. But, you know, it's just if you're fighting guys at your level or below, then you win. And if you fight guys above your level, you lose, right? And then when you get to the top, right? Now you're fighting for the title.

You should be the best in the world. So then it comes to the title. for the greatest of all time. So we certainly have to put Armand in that conversation. The loss, you know, and if anything, the loss shows me like, okay, you can work through some adversity, right? Like he's lost some rounds and he worked through the adversity. To me, that shows more strength than someone who didn't lose rounds.

That just means you were that much better than everyone. And in this sport, like not everyone, like everybody has a weakness. And if you fight long enough, like, you will lose. That is the game. You fight often enough, enough people. You put yourself out there enough. Like you will lose. Like, with all the credit that we give John Jones, like, you know, like a heavyweight, he has picked his fights.

At light heavyweight, you know, there's arguments that he lost a few of those fights, a couple of those fights. So the losses aren't really, to me, what's going to discredit. one for being in that greatest of all-time argument. But I was, for me personally, Islam wins this fight. He is at the top of that list, right? Then you got to look into the nitty-gritty details of him versus Khabib who's a greater or maybe BJ still, right?

Like I think there's a good argument still that BJ was the greatest ever. Yeah, I think Islam, here's the thing, and I know this is going to be the debate, but I think here's the thing is even if Islam's not unanimously or everyone's saying, man, he's banging the drum, he's number one. He's in the conversation. And I think that means a lot, right? Because we do hold Khabib in a pretty high regard. And rightfully so, like it's not like Khabi existed during the Hoyt-Gracie era.

Like this was, he was championed like five years ago and he's beating guys who are still currently in the UFC and competing. Like he beat Dustin Pori, he beat Justin Gachie, guys who are still in that like top five, top six in the world. So it's not like he fought of a different era. You know, like it's harder to compare, like even Matt Hughes, as great as Matt Hughes was, it's harder to compare Matt Hughes to like Kamar Usman because the sport has evolved so much since Matt Hughes to Kamar Usman.

Like that's just a whole. Even like a GSP, right? It's hard to compare like Kamara Usman. Like he had a completely different type of run than Kamara did. Yeah. So it's like, but to put Islam even in that conversation. And again, to be totally fair, I know I've talked to Islam a couple times. I've talked to Keeb more.

and I know both of them, I know their coaches, I know their manager. I don't think they care. Like, I really don't think they care. Like, if you said Islam's the greatest, Khabib would probably say, yes, he's the greatest because he cares about his guy. And I'm sure Islam would tell you. Like, I talked to Ustman to Malkimadov who fights next week, and he's 26, lightweight. Kabib said, I think he has the chance to be the greatest of all the times.

He's younger. You know, he's already a champion, things like that. And I asked, and I asked Ustman who he ranks, like, greatest lightweight. and he's like, Islam one, me too. He puts Islam number one. That's his guy. So I don't think they're sitting around the kitchen table arguing with each other, like who's the greatest lightweight.

But I think the fact that Islam can get in that conversation says a lot. Because I'm with you. Like, I don't think the loss, that doesn't diminish anything to me. What keeps Islam, even with the title defense, what keeps Islam just slightly in my book, slightly below Kabib is because the eye test of what I saw Kabib do. Kabee was so dominant and like you could not figure him out. Guys tried and couldn't.

It was like fighting a brick fucking wall to fight Kabib. Like you're just like you're fighting quicksand against a brick wall. It was just so hard to deal with him. And so that still reigns in my mind. When I think about like really good fighters just couldn't do anything against him. It was like almost intimidating. And that's kind of where I said like when we get into especially if he beats Arman, he's definitely in the debate and it becomes a debate right now we're debating nitty gritty details right

yeah and here's the thing though Islam's not done like we're talking right now like he has a chance to break the record okay that's four he would he would trump could be by one but he's not done like who's to say who's to say Islam can't go out and defend it two or three more times and then like I think at that point conversation over because I mean like it or not Like it or not? Like it or not? Start putting some stamps on it. Yeah.

Like it or not as much as I love Kabib, like he did retire at three. So if Islam gets to five, six, like how could you not? Just like, you know, Demetrius. Like I think, I think there have been some great light, great fly weights. But you don't have 11 title defenses like Demetri's Chalston. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. There's just a little low.

So if Islam can get to five or six or again, you know, I know this isn't the, we're talking about lightweight right now. of the all-time debate. Like maybe he goes up and wins 170. There's all these little things he can still do because Islam's not done yet. So I bring it up only because of the record. Like if he wins this weekend, he breaks the record.

It is impressive, right? Like four title defenses is impressive. But again, I still think for me personally, he's got a little bit more work to do before I would say, yeah, Islam won, Khab too. But he's in the conversation, and that says a lot. Yeah, yeah. And again, I think let's see him fight Armin this weekend.

and maybe we'll have that debate next week. You know, we'll see how he looks against Armin, different things like that. Because like I said, it's going to come down to the details then, you know, and sometimes there's a little bit of bias when you start getting into those conversations. Sometimes, you know, we can start talking about like how they won, you know, different things like that. Yeah, if he goes out and taps out Armist Rook in the first round,

we may have a completely different opinion. You know, if he goes out to just malls him. And that was one of the things like with Demetri's Johnson, where, you know, he has his argument, right? Like, he won the one fight. Was it Ray Borg, you know, in the fifth round with like 30 seconds left by the flying arm bar from the back? You know, and you're like, dude, like, okay, like, yeah, you're one of the greatest now. You know, like that really stokes the fire for people to be able to start saying those things.

And that's one of the arguments, I think, against GSP, right? He wasn't a finisher, right? He had a lot of decisions, and I think that's one of the arguments against him. But even, you know, he lost him at Sarah, right? But like, he's still in that conversation all the time. You know, he lost to Matt Hughes, right? He's still in the conversation. So, you know, there's, the losses to me are not what's going to define someone as the greatest or not.

You know, and we, this conversation happens all the time in boxing, right? And, you know, there's a lot of people out there that believe Floyd Bayweather is the greatest of all time because he never lost. And I'm like, dude, like, like, Julio Cesar. Chavez had fucking 84 fights before he lost. Like, Sugar Ray Robinson went on like a hundred fight something streak. Yeah. I mean, so it's

silly, you know, how people kind of play into that. Well, he lost thing, you know, so yeah, to be interesting. We'll see how he does this weekend and go from there. Yeah. I think it's, I think, like I said, I think he's in the conversation. I think that's enough, right? Like, that's impressive enough. The fact that you're like,

we could even have this debate. Like, we couldn't have this debate about, like, we couldn't say, like, again, about I bring up Alex Pereira. Like, I love Alex Pereira. We would never sit here and have this debate about him being better than John Jones. Like, we would not, we would not even, like, that would be the dumbest debate ever. People are like, why are you even talking about this? Some things greater than John Jones, right?

I mean. Well, yeah, but not a greatest of all time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like greatest light heavyweight of all time. No, I'm sorry. Like, that's not a conversation. I mean, I don't know if we've seen any rise like Alex Perey. I mean, John's rise was phenomenal, too.

I mean, there's certainly some comparables there, but Alex Perez rise was fucking insane. Yeah, and the problem Alex has, as much I love Alice, Alex is 37 going on 38. Like, he can't, he won't be able to maintain it that much longer. And I mean, don't say won't. Well, unlikely, unlikely to maintain it. Yeah, it's less likely, but man, we've watched this sport long enough. We know never say it's not going to happen. That's true.

That's very true. So, um, welcome aboard Air Canada. Rocky's vacation here we come. Whoa, is this economy? Free beer, wine, and snacks. Sweet. Fast free Wi-Fi means I can make dinner reservations before we land. And with live TV, I'm not missing the game.

It's kind of like I'm already on vacation. Nice. Air Canada. Nice travels. Wi-Fi available to AeroPen members on equip flights. Sponsored by Bell. Conditions apply. See Air Canada.com. Hack the holidays with the Pee.

The PC Holiday Insiders Report. Try this PC Porchetta. Crackling, craveworthy. You gonna eat that? Who are you? I'm the voice for the next ad, car commercial. But I noticed that show-stopping roast and... Help yourself.

Mmm, designed for indulgence. Precision crafted to navigate every corner of my mouth. All for just $18. Okay, okay. Try the season's hottest flavors from the PC Holiday Insiders Report. Please feast responsibly. co-main event marab de wailashvili against umar no magamato now this is a weird one because it's like the flip of the other fight where marab is the champion but umar is like a three to one favorite

like he is overwhelmingly favored to win this fight uh which is kind of wild to me and not because like i think listen i've said for two years maybe a year and a half that i think umar is the future of this division i think he is that good he is the next stage of evolution of that Dagestani Abdulmanat Narmagamato fighter where it's like Khabib was the first Islam was the second

and now you got like Usman and Umar because like the third generation of like where they're good strikers they're great grapplers like they've continued to evolve um you know Marab's on an incredible win streak and he's proven time and time and time again you cannot discount him but

I don't know man it's an interesting matchup because Umar I think Umar's the real deal Like how can I how can I not back Umar when I've said like I think this guy's the future of the division? Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know you were passing off to me there. Yeah. Bro, fucking I can't believe he's a three to one favorite.

Because I would not favor him by that much. Yeah, Marabas looked nothing but phenomenal. He's done everything he's wanted to do. And matchup wise, I mean, you know, you got to. give um mar the striking advantage most likely right i think um but wrestling wise i mean man i don't know like marab is a hell of a wrestler you know and he in cardio for days umar hasn't shown a lot of weaknesses in either of those areas but man i would not favor him out much i might put some money on marab as a matter of fact well here's where i'll say like here's the thing that here's what i would say

has to worry me about Umar if I was like you know questioning Umar's status here there's still a lot of unknowns about Umar like umar umar beating Corey Sanagan was super impressed we did over five rounds he didn't go out there and just get a quick submission you know he had to go five rounds with a really good fighter we all know how good Corey Sanagan is but that's one fight that's his one five round fight like we don't know yeah marab's conditioning is on another level we know that like that's a whole other animal. We've not seen him go up against another really high level, true high level wrestler. We know Marab is that. So there's little things. Like if you're going to question Umar, it's that, like we just don't know. Like, I think he's the real deal. I think he is,

I think he's unquestionably going to become a champion. Is it going to be on Saturday night? We'll find out. But if you're going to question things, I think that's what I would question because there's unknowns. Like, we know what Morat brings the table. We still, there's still a couple questions about umar yeah i think that was kind of what i was trying to get at there without saying as clearly as you but yeah you know he's got some questions um and i mean i haven't seen him faced a wrestler that good you know i mean he's obviously faced some really good guys but mara is a really really good wrestler you know and it's not to say that um mar can't handle it but um we again we just haven't seen it so it's going to be hard to tell and and and it's

also like I don't know how many I don't know how you replicate Marab in the gym. I mean do you have guys I mean I guess you know you have guys rotate in and out right and just spam double legs over and over and over again because I mean that's

Marab's kind of specialty right and if he gets you down you know I mean he's he's tough to get off of you so you know I think it's going to be very similar to the the main event at least in the sense that, you know, whoever is getting on top more often is probably going to be the,

have a better chance of winning, right? And it's going to be about wearing the other person down. And that's why I wouldn't mind putting money on Marab because I don't see him getting worn down. But we also haven't seen Marab on his back much either, right? We haven't seen nobody, you know, able to scramble. Like he had, you know, we've seen him with issues taking people down,

like Peter Yon, for instance. But, you know, he kept Yon on the deep. defense, right? He didn't, Yon wasn't really able to get off his offense. And I think that would be the trick for Umar, right? If he's able to, um, stop the grappling, stop the shots and then get offense off the whole way, uh, that's going to be a tricky night for Marab now. And it's, it's going to be a really, really interesting fight. But I think it's worth putting money on Marab for. I mean, at those odds, I don't think I don't see how you couldn't. I mean, like I said, the run that Marab's on, how could you at least not take a shot on? Now I wouldn't bet your bank on. I

wouldn't, you know, bet your life savings on it, but you're like, hey, we're three to one odds. Like, take a shot at it because, like, I don't think, I agree with you. Like, I don't think those odds are a little upside. That being said, like, I'm still leaning, Umar, because I can't not, I can't back off the guy now. I can't say this is the future of the division and then say, well, he's going to lose this fight. You know what I mean? So I think he's got a great chance of winning because I think he's just, he's bigger. Obviously, I think that's going to play a factory.

He's got the size. But I also think, like, he's got the wrestling to count. or Marab's wrestling. And, you know, Yon, Jan did a decent enough job about that, but the problem was, John was just on defense the entire time. All he could do was try to stop the takedowns.

He couldn't do anything else. Umar does have other weapons. And I think Umar will, you know, he can, he can counter a takedown. Maybe he gets one of his own, or maybe he just scrambles and, you know, sprawls and gets back up and starts kicking him. Little things like,

Yon had to constantly be wary of the takedown. I don't think Umar is going to be as worried about that because he's also a really good wrestler. and I think Marab is great, but we've seen Maraib get hurt in fights. We saw it in that Marlon Mariah's fight. He got, he got bombed in that fight. I don't think he can play that game with the guy like Umar.

Umar hits hard. He's a truck. And like I said, he's like the new hybrid that Dagestani fighter where he's not just a wrestler. He's got good striking. So I'm leading him. Yeah, which is where I think it gets so interesting because if Umar is able to counter some of his wrestling,

it's not to say that Rob doesn't have a counter two to the counter, right? And it could turn into some really fascinating scrambles. And then it's like, is Umar going to be able to capitalize on it with if he does counter? Yeah. Here's my question, Matt. I can't remember what fight this was we talked about this with. This was a couple months ago, and I don't want to rehash an old subject, but I do want to ask you about this. Because we had this conversation like, does the UFC root against certain fighters?

I can't remember what conversation. I can't remember what fight we were talking about at that point. But there was like this idea that the UFC roots again. Maybe it was Al Jermaine Sterling, which is kind of ironic because it's his teammate. But it almost feels like for a while there, like it's almost like the world was against Marab, right? Like he wasn't getting a title shot. It was almost like they got forced into giving him to fight with O'Malley because, I mean, stylistically, they had to know that was a bad fight for O'Malley. And it played out pretty much as we all expected it to be.

But, you know, this whole narrative, like they were like, you know, we want Marab to fight in January, he didn't want to fight in January. He's kind of doing the Al Jermaine thing, where Al Jamee was like, I don't want to fight on this day. and it kind of got this public discourse. And it always seems like Dana, like, remember the cut over the fight with the O'Malley fight when Dana's like, what are you doing? Like, he's just basically like, I'm idiot. Like, why are you showing that on, you know, why are you showing off the cut you got on? Again, I don't think anyone is sitting behind the scenes twiddling their thumbs to the UFC saying,

we don't want this guy to win. But is there any part of you that feels like the UFC would rather have Umar's champion than Marab or, or again, is that just a narrative that we make up to have a fun, story to talk about. Yeah, I'm not sure. It's hard to even comment on that, you know what I mean? Because you just, you don't know. All right, we're just speculating on things like that.

Yeah, it's just hard to say, man. I don't know. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't. Who cares? Yeah. I mean, I think it's funny because, like, when you see, like, I mean, Dana, here's one thing I do like about Dana.

Dana doesn't hold his, his cards close to the vest. If he doesn't like you or he has opinion about you, That's for sure. He's going to let it be known, right? Like, he's going to let it be known. And so, like, when Marab was doing the whole, I want to fight O'Malley, I want to fight Yon, and Dana's like, no, you're fighting Newmar. Like, you kind of get that sense of like, maybe he's digging at Marab a little bit here because Marab's like, oh, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that.

Dana's like, no, no, you're not. I wonder if that plays into the betting line a little bit because I think there's a, there's a lot of speculation that Marab didn't want this fight. Like, this was the one that he was kind of trying to avoid. Yeah. I mean, and you could argue. I know people are going to, I mean, people, this is going back, but you could argue the same thing about O'Malley. Like, O'Malley's like, like, this and that.

And he's like, I want to fight, I want to fight I want to fight I'm going to do this. And I was like, you got to fight Marab, right? Like, and what we, and you got to respect to Mali, too. Yeah, you got to respect the fact that, you know, he finally, man, Nubb said, yeah, you know, that's what the fans want. I'll fight him. Yeah. And credit to Marab, he's doing it here too.

Now, how that happened? What kind of back room deal happened? Did they offer him an extra, you know, zero on his paycheck or something? Who knows. But, yeah, I mean, like I said, I really don't, I truly don't believe the, like, are more, are certain guys more marketable than others? Sure. But again, that's what you got to love about MMA.

There are no guarantees. Like I said, I'm sure the UFC was right in the plan right now. Connor McGregor would be in the UFC. He'd be fighting three times a year. He'd be a double champ. And they'd be making, you know, millions on every single paper because Connor's still a big star. That's not how it works.

You know, that's not how this works. So, yeah, I don't think they're rooting against Morab. but I like I always laugh because Dana is just so blunt like Dana does not mince words like he's just like he'll say his

he'll speak his mind I do appreciate that no absolutely yeah yeah sometimes it's cool sometimes you're like all right you didn't have to say that buddy but yeah for the most part he's

he's saying exactly what it feels and he's in a position to do so you know more power to him right um yeah I mean that fight, it's hard to not be 50-50 on that fight, though. It's so shocking that that's the line. And in almost, you know, not any, but the vast majority of title fights, you know,

don't have a plus 350 line. So I think it's worth the bet there. And, you know, I'm out here giving betting advice now, I guess. Where's my draft king sponsor? Right. Yeah, what's going on? But, man, that's very surprising. But, again, I wonder if it had a little bit to do with.

you know marab really did not seem like he wanted this fight you know it really didn't but i don't think it's as bad of a matchup as people are making it out to be i guess we know that's that's to be seen you know umar is a tricky guy you know that's what's interesting i think the most because marab's pretty straightforward right like we kind of know what we're going to get with marab and he's pretty straightforward with how he handles himself in the octagon uh um Umar does a lot of really tricky things. And he showed that against Corey Sandhagen more than anybody, right? Like he stayed fundamental when he needed to.

He got tricky when he needed to. And he made it through all five rounds and ended up with his handraised against Corey, who's one of the best strikers out there. Let me ask you this question, man. I'm curious because we're talking about the Morab factor. And I'm not, listen, I like Morab. Let me be clear about that. I know Marab a little bit.

Marab's always been a really, really nice guy. I like Marab a lot. we've gotten to this point now in the sport and I call it to Conn-Morger-Isation if you want to call it that of the sport where champions are like kind of calling their shots now like if you remember back in the day like the champion was like I just

fight who they put in front of me like I'm the champ now I'm no longer the hunter I'm to hunt and bring me the next best guy that's not really the case anymore where like you know Sean O'Malley's like I want to fight Cheeto Vera because he has a win over me did Cheeto Vera deserve that title shot absolutely not did Dan

Henderson deserve a title shot when he fought Michael Bissing, absolutely not. That's kind of where we're at in the sport. But did Marab do himself a bit of a disservice when everyone's about, everyone's like Umar, Umar, Umar, and he's like, no, give me yon, give me a mali. Like it's a bad look. Like it or not, it's a bad look. Yeah. Yeah, but he wasn't wrong either. I mean, Umar, you know, I mean, what you said, his, his best win was Corrie

Sanhagan, which is a great win, but, look, Marab had to do, what, 12 fight win streak before he got the title? I mean, he's not totally wrong. I don't think he was wrong. But like you said, from a PR standpoint, you know, you got to say, generally, you know, you just got to say what you're supposed to say. And as I'm the bad as dude in the world and I'll fight anybody. Yeah, it's kind of like the, I can't, there's a movie that's like this where it's like

if you say it once everyone listens, you say it 10 times, it's like, what are you afraid of, man? Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. That's been the drum he's been banging on this whole time. Like, Umar hasn't earned it. He didn't go the right way. He didn't do what everyone else is.

has had to do. And I'm not saying he's wrong, by the way. That's the thing. He's not wrong. He's not wrong. But when you keep saying it, then people are like, well, hold on now, are you just like, are you trying to avoid this guy? Because when you say it once, like I said, you put it out there, you're like, okay, I don't think he deserves it, but let's go. Okay, to end it. But the fact that you keep like, he doesn't deserve it, he doesn't earn this, and that's been the narrative the whole time. And then the whole thing with O'Malley, the rematch and yon, all this stuff. I'm just like, I don't think he's doing, like, there's certain guys where you're just like maybe you need a little bit of a PR lesson like you need

someone to kind of pull you aside and say okay like slow down because marab had all the goodwill on his side going into a mallee fight and it's almost like it's been squandered going into this one because like the narrative completely changed or it's like why are you trying to avoid umar i don't really think he was trying to avoid umar but when you keep saying it people are like hold on now Are you trying to avoid him? Yeah, yeah. You know, I don't know if these guys hire, like, PR managers when they get titles or what, but I think most of them would be well served to do so, I think.

Very few of them say the right things, you know. Yeah, it's unfortunate because, like I said, you can squander that goodwill in a hurry, man. Like I said, the people will turn on you in a hurry. And to be fair, fans are fickle too, right? Again, he's not saying the wrong thing, but, you know, we're all fans, and I feel the same way as everyone else. I'm finicky also, and I'm going to say, bro, you can't say that shit.

You must be scared, right? We know that's not the case, but that's what it starts feeling like. Well, that's like the old, back of the day when Anderson Silva was champion, he had won like kind of a stinker fight against whether Tully's Lentis or whatever it was. And suddenly people were like,

oh, Anderson Silva's terrible. It's like, dude, it's one fight. Yeah. Anderson Silva's the Terminator. He had one bad fight. Like, one bad fight does not make a career. But that's the nature of this, right like unfortunately that's the nature of this beast yeah and that's a position you you get put in

when you're a champion and all eyes are on you you know they expect fans expect a lot out of you right it's the same in other sports too right like like ohio state went out and lost against michigan and they were talking about firing ryan day right and now they're about to very potentially win a national championship so that's the fan's job right is to be hard on people and uh when you're in that that position of a high performer, that's why you get paid the big bucks because you got to handle that stress. 100%.

Real quick before we get out of here, Matt, I got to ask you. I was going to bring this up at the top of the show. We got right into Armin and Islam and I got a chance to do it, but I wanted to mention it because it is like everywhere right now. This whole situation with Kabib Drabu-Bed-Bed-Mad-Mad-on. Very rarely are we talking about fighters on planes,

and that's somehow the conversation we're having right now. But this weekend, that kind of went everywhere, whereas, like, Kabib got removed from a flight, the airline released the statement saying, oh, no, no, they didn't, they didn't like, you know, single him out for his ethnicity or whatever. Matt, did you see the video? What did you think?

Because I was joking. I was actually talking about you in one of our meetings today. I was like, Matt Brown had to ride the middle seat to like Thailand one time. So if there's like a, if there's an international incident, waiting it to happen, that was probably it. But did you, did you see this video? Are people making too much of this or is it like? Because to me, my opinion, I was like, it looked a little like,

It looked some, it looks suspect to me. Yeah. It looked pretty suspect to me. You know what? I've seen the video and I don't know all the behind the scenes details, right? Because it usually something like that, we see a short clip, but there's usually something leading up to it. My only question was, why was Kabebeb in economy?

Like, can he not afford a first class flight? I mean, that's what blew my mind. I know I fly first class as often as I can. Once you get a taste of first class, you're like, bro, I don't want to go back there with the peasants again. I don't know. Maybe he's humble. Maybe it was a connecting fight, you know, like a really short flight that didn't have a first class. But I'm like, bro, like, spend extra money.

I think you got it. That's funny. You said, you know what, though? Some guys are just like, I'm not going to spend any extra money on anything I don't need to spend it on. So, like, he's like, I'm going to do coach. Like, I'm a fly coach because it saves me a few hundred bucks. So maybe that's his deal. But, yeah.

Listen, I'm not going to pass judgment totally because, again, you don't see the whole video. And I know the airline said that what was on video, what they said was on video was a gate agent, not the original interaction with the flight attendant. But, I mean, the whole thing seemed really suspect to me. Like, it's just like, you're saying, like, because the lady pretty clearly said, like, you're speaking English or whatever. And I, I have talked to, like, I have an English, I was an English literature major in college. I know Khabib speaks better English than people I know who actually are native English speaker. So I'm just saying like it was a really weird like I again I don't listen I want anyone suing me. But I don't want to say it was singling a guy out for his ethnicity or his religion, you know, whatever.

But that seemed pretty suspect to me because it's like because I've been in exit rows plenty of times. I'm a six foot three guy. If I can get an extra or I will. And generally all they do. is they come around and say, are you willing to assist other passengers where you say yes? And they need you to verbally say yes. That's all you have to do.

They're not sitting there like giving you a language test. So it just seems really odd that they singled him out. Yeah, and he seemed like he handled it well too. Yeah, he didn't cause a big fuss or anything. He argued a little bit and walked off the plane. So, yeah, it's a bad look for the airline. What was it? American? Is that what it was? Frontier. Frontier.

Frontier. Oh, frontier. Yeah. No wonder. Yeah, Frontier is one of the worst. Yeah. Yeah, it's a bad look for them. Yeah.

Why is he flying Frontier? Yeah, like he's flying coach and on Frontier. Yeah, I don't know, man. I don't know. But I saw that and I was just like, because I remember one time I was on a flight and we were in coach. And I, as I said, I'm six foot three. And so like I always have to kind of like, I try to get the longer seat.

Sometimes it doesn't work out. And there was a guy sitting next to me and I had my legs out. and the guy was complaining that I was in his space. Now, I wasn't. I'm very conscious of where I'm sitting my feet and stuff. But the guy was also kind of tall, and he kept complaining. And so the attendant's like, you can either move seats or you can get off the flight because, like, he's not doing anything to bother you.

Like, he's tall. His legs are there and they're not on your side. And the guy just got bitching. I think he wanted to upgrade is what he wanted. You know what I mean? They wouldn't do it. Sure. And so he got stuck sitting next to me the whole flight.

I just, like, laughed about it because I'm just like, dude, I can't not be 6'3. I can't not have my legs out in front of me, you know what I mean? And I wasn't on his side. I think you wanted to upgrade to first class. I think you wanted to be like, hey, can you bump me up to first class? Because, like, you know, I need leg room two or whatever. But people will complain for dumb shit on planes. And, you know, they do put up with a lot, but I've seen some really dumb interactions

too. And that one, that one seemed dumb to me. I'm just like, of all the hills to die on, this guy, like, English and like, huh? Like, I don't know. Did you see Michael Chandler, like, came out? He's just like, there's one guy you want on your side on a flight like this. It's Kabibna-R-Mach-A-Bed-Hoff, but I'm like, yeah. Like, if I want someone who's actually going to help the plane, that's the guy I want.

Sure, yeah. If we wreck, I want Kabeb there helping. Yeah. Yeah, if there's someone causing the disturbance on a plane, that's the guy I want next to me. Like, that's the guy I want to subdue the lunatic in the aisle or whatever. You know what I mean? So, yeah, it was so dumb. But you do make a valid point.

I actually had that thought. I was like, why does he not find a first class? but you know who knows yeah whatever uh i don't think it's a huge thing should fly over pretty quick we'll probably forget about it by next week so especially with the awesome fights this weekend you know there's a lot of other good fights too man we're not even touching on you know strickland and duplessis too right that's this weekend that's that's that's that's that's that's February still got a little time that's February what else is on this car there's other good fights that is uh jamal hill and your prohoshka that's on man yeah that's that's going to be uh I don't even

this is going to be a shit show right both those guys have no technique but they're such amazing fighters yeah and lots of knockout power man I have a hard time I have a hard time believing that one's going to go to a decision fact fact you got Benil Darius and Hinau

Hano that's going to be a fun one and then Rinder Dider against Kevin Holland that's a really interesting matchup because Derritter looked really good in his debut great grappling but Kevin Holland is no joke so that's a really fun one as well yeah yeah I'm really stoked and hopefully I'll be out in LA watching this and not getting burned down by any fires

and it'd be a good show give us a first-hand report from the from Cajside that's what I hope to do we will see if it's in the cards or not I got I got set up I just got to you know go get on the plane and hopefully not get kicked off and not get a middle seat and hopefully not get a middle seat that's the other thing yeah at least you get a direct flight if you go to L.A. We do have direct from here to LA, which I appreciate. There's a lot of places we don't fly directly in Columbus. Only on Spirit, though. Really? Is that the only one?

Yeah. I've done American from here, direct. Maybe you got lucky. I don't know. Do they not do it anymore? Maybe they don't do it anymore. I don't know. I haven't seen it.

I've never seen it. Really? Yeah, I did. When I flew to L.A., this is going back with Ultimate Fighter 20. When they did that season, I flew out to L.A. And it was a direct flight. I was so happy.

Because, like, you can't get direct flights from Columbus to anywhere. Like, unless you're going like Chicago. Chicago, like New York, which is like an hour flight, you're going nowhere on direct from Columbus. So, uh,

yeah, and did you, did you fly spirit one time? Not flying spirit a bunch. I don't mind spirit. It's kind of like frontier. You know, definitely not the best.

Yeah. Yeah, but I don't mind it because, uh, like when I go to L.A., I only go for a couple days. I don't check any bags or anything most of the time. So,

you know, It's not that bad to me They're on time Their planes work What else do you need? Do uh yeah And you know what? I'll take the I'll take the the

Craziness going to LA right now Or the freaking snow and coldness here in Ohio At least you get out of here during a time When it's like I think it was like 13 degrees this week So good time to get LA It's supposed to get down to like negative 16 is what I heard Yeah so have fun in L.A. I'm jealous I would be fully jealous of that trip right there so

All right folks that is our show obviously Matt always want to give you a chance obviously we'll be back next week to break down everything that happens at USC 311 and hopefully you get to go and we can hear a first-hand report of everything that went down in LA where can people go to show you support at I'm the immortal on my Instagram

and Twitter the immortal Matt Brown on Facebook and this year I will be starting a school community S-K-O-O-L and that will be Immortal School of Warriors I think is what it's going to be called I'm kind of working on right now, film with some content, trying to blow that up a little bit. Nice, nice.

So like some instructional things like that? Yeah. So what it is, a lot of people don't know what the school platform is. It's S-K-O-O-L. There's an app. It's basically imagine like a Facebook group, but it's so it's just community, right? And I'll do Q&As. I'll do, obviously I'll film content, but, you know, do Q&As and bring in friends and they can join in,

maybe do some podcasts on there. One of the things I want to do is like, you know, train with a guy and then we'll, we'll not really podcast, but, you know, we'll speak afterward. And you can talk, you can listen to us, talk about the techniques that we worked on or, you know, things that maybe I hit him with or he hit me with that aren't normal. You know, just kind of delve deep. Nice. I like it. Well, yeah, definitely check that out. And obviously, as I said, we'll be back next week with the show as we break down everything that goes on at UFC 311.

obviously check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms Apple Podcasts, Spotify and of course over on the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin. We will see you next week for another edition of the fighter versus the writer. Thanks for tuning in.

We'll see you then.