MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Reveals Keys to Victory for Jon Jones and Stipe Miocic Plus is Jones Ducking Tom Aspinall?

Episode Date: November 12, 2024

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown breaks down the keys to victory for both Jon Jones and Stipe Miocic ahead of their showdown at UFC 309 and we discuss if Jones is actually ducking Tom Aspinall after declaring he has no interest in that fight plus we preview Michael Chandler vs. Charles Oliveira 2 and more. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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He is UFC legend, Matt Brown. And Matt, we are officially into UFC 309 Fight Week. I know everyone was super excited about UFC Vegas 100, but we're through that, and we are now on to UFC 309, John Jones, Stephen Miochich, Michael Chandler, Charles Olivera. Matt, it's a big event week. It is, and I think we're all pretty excited for this, right? It's been a long time coming, and we're ready to see what happens, man. But I'll tell you what, everybody's talking about Jones, Miochich, and I think a lot of people are actually forgetting about Chandler-Oliver, because that fight, that's the real barn burner on the card right there.

And it's also five rounds. So they're giving them a five. Now, will it go? I do it go five rounds? I highly doubt it. But it's a five round fight. Yeah,

that's a tough one to see going five rounds. But boy, you know, we seen what happened in the first fight. Chandler was really close a couple of times. And Oliver does what he does, you know, just finds a way.

Man, that's an exciting fight, bro. Of course, Stepe and John, I mean, that's going to be, you know, I don't see that as much as an exciting fight. It's just two guys with great names, two legends, you know, and that's not a word you're taking, you're throwing around lightly when you're talking about those two, you know, true legends. And in Madison Square Garden, it's fucking awesome. But that's not going to be a barn burner of a fight, most likely.

You never know. It's a UFC. You never know. But that's not going to be, you know, a knockdown. drag out bloody war. I don't think. No, I mean, typically speaking, I mean, what can you, you probably count on like one hand the amount of heavyweight fights that have been like that. Like, don't get me wrong. There have been some fun, fun heavyweight fights and fun knockouts, fun finishes, but, you know,

was it Mark Hunt and Bigfoot Silva? Remember we always talk about that one when those guys did it? But I mean, when you, I mean, don't get me wrong. I love heavyweight MMA and obviously I think everyone does, just like heavyweight boxing. But much like heavyweight boxing, you don't generally get like those you know you don't get those epic battles in heavyweight boxing you're usually looking for the big knockout you know like yeah you get those great moments like fury and uh and wilder where wilder knocks him down he gets up and somehow wins the fight but or you get to draw technically that fight but it's usually the lighter ways that are able to like take those kind of punches so yeah I mean you can probably count on one hand now I'm trying to think of it like what other like epic

heavyweight fights have there been there's not many Miochich, D.C. was kind of epic, I guess, right? Like, that was a pretty good one. But, yeah, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't a fucking knockdown. It wasn't Lenner Garcia fight. It was really like Steve Bay, Steve-Bey was getting beat pretty handle, and he comes back with that body shot. And then that was more of like a really cool comeback. You know what I mean?

That wasn't even like it was a battle. It was just like he was down and then boom, he comes back and knocks out D.C. And third or fourth round or whatever it was. So, yeah, generally speaking, I mean, that's the danger of heavyweight. That's why everyone said for years, like I was always curious how John Jones would do at heavyweight because like it or not, I think to this day, and it's not like what Steve Bate did is amazing, three title defenses. But the reason there's only been three is because there's just so much unpredictability. You just need one, one little bit of a glancing shot at heavyweight and you're done. You know what I mean?

So like there's no, there's literally like zero room forever error in heavyweights. That's exactly right I was sitting there trying to think of great heavyway fights and I could think of some boxing ones but yeah in MMA it's so rare isn't it? Yeah it's I mean again when you watch heavyweight MMA you're thinking about the big finish

you're not necessarily thinking about the epic war like you may have a big moment and then somebody gets a knockout or something like that and you may have a couple of rounds but typically speaking like you're never you're generally not going to get just a five round grueling just an epic battle it's just so much punishment

and so much damage done with that much power that it's hard to do that. Like I said, when you think about heavyweight, you think about the crow cop head kick knockouts and you think about, I mean, yeah, Kane Velasquez is what he did to Junior DeSanto's over five rounds, but that wasn't a compelling fight. That was Kane absolutely beating the living hell out of Junior

for basically 10 rounds, winning both of those fights. But, you know, it's like Junior's toughness, but that's not really a compelling. It was just him eating a lot of punishment and Kane beating him up. Yeah, again, that was a good one, though, right? because we kept thinking, like, you know, Kane just putting that pressure on. You're like, dude, Jr.'s going to land it.

He's going to land it. And he landed a couple, but it wasn't enough. And, yeah, man, I'm sitting here racking my brain, trying to think of a really good, knockdown, drag-out heavyweight war. And it's just stumping me now. Yeah, it's feeling far between, especially title fights. You know what I mean? Like, when you get, like, you may, we could probably,

we could probably go down through history and find a couple of, you know, pretty decent heavy-weight fights. But heavy-weight title fights typically have not been that way. when you think about the guys who have been champion. I mean, even like Shane Carwin, Brock Lesnar, like that was Shane beating the living shit out of Brock Lesnar for the first round, and then somehow Lesnar surviving and then coming back.

Yeah, and then coming back, it wasn't like it was this back-and-forth war. It was just like, oh, my God, he somehow survived this entire onslaught, and then he comes back and beats, you know, Karwin in the second round. But again, that's not like, you know, like you said, that's not like a Dustin Porier or a Max Holloway fight or something like that. Yeah, there's not a lot of back and forth, huh? Yeah, I can think of some boxing ones. You know, Riddick Bow and Vanderholyfield was probably one of the greatest heavyweight fights

that you don't really hear a lot about. I mean, Ollie Frazier is obviously like one of the top three trilogies in history. But, man, you just don't see that, do you? I didn't even say about that. But, yeah, so I guess that's an easy prediction, then it's probably not going to be a knock-down, drag-out fight. But I guess it's going to come down, is Jones able to take them down, right? and then if they end up on the feet, it could actually turn into a little bit of a nail bit of a nail biter.

Well, let's get in, you know, I said we're going to debut a new segment this week when we are, which is going to be, you know, Brown's breakdown. I'm going to give you keys to victory for both guys. If you're coaching Jones, if you're coaching Steepay. But I am curious because I said for years, and I think you'll probably agree with me, I said for years when Jones kept T's in heavyweight,

kept T's in heavyweight, I said Steepay would probably be one of the more difficult matchups because Steepa's fast, he's a good boxer, he hits hard, and he's got good wrestling, like really legitimately good wrestling. That was the scary thing about Francis because as powerful as Francis is, if he puts Francis on his back, I don't know that Francis would get up again because John is so good on top. Now, are we dealing with, you know, nearly a four-year-long layoff with Steepa? Yeah.

Do people lose the step as they get older? Sure. Typically, it's a little less in heavyweight, though. I will say. Like, heavy weights typically go older. but stylistically, I've always said steeping was one of the more difficult matchups for John heavyweight. Yeah, yeah.

I think that's the big question in this fight is where are these guys at, motivational, enthusiastically in their career? It's like what is their real motivations? You know, I mean, there's a lot of questions been raised in the past few days about John Jones' motivations, right? And, you know, I think a lot of that's going to come to light in the fight. In particular with Steppe, I think we're pretty much guaranteed.

This is his last fight. You know, is he going to go out and give everything he's got? Or is he just like, yeah, another payday school, you know, and this is a gigantic payday. And certainly he wants to win. I was just talking with my friend about this earlier. You know, it's one thing to want to win and put in the work that you need to put in. But you'll see a lot with fighters when they're coming up is, you know, after practice, they're doing an extra round.

They're jumping on the treadmill, doing an extra sprint. Maybe, you know, doing extra drills a little bit. Kind of towards the lighter end of your career, maybe you're putting in that work and still doing it well. But those extra little tidbits of, you know, of work, they start piling up really quick. And, you know, it's like, are these guys doing that at this point? You know, is Steepa going to do that?

I don't know. And that's to be seen. So let me ask this question, Matt, because I think, this is the general curiosity about this fight in general is, you know, does Steve-Bey have a legitimate chance? Because I think a lot of people to read, one of the biggest reasons why people are pushing so hard for Tom Aspinall was because not only is he on a run and looking like a ferocious monster, which he absolutely is, is the question about Steve-pe. I mean, Steve-Bey hasn't fought since 2021. His last fight was a knockout loss to Francis. He's been out for almost four

years. He's 42. I mean, these are all, and I'm not going to discount them. They're all legitimate concerns when you're dealing with this. But there's this like, I think this overwhelming message, you know, this overwhelming messaging with this fight that Stipe's just going to get blown out of the water. Now, when you look at Stipe's losses, you know, he got caught by D.C. In a fight that he was winning early and D.C. caught him on the inside. Credit to D.C. got it done. The two rematches, obviously, things were, we just mentioned, things were going a little dice

to R Stipe. Comes back, knocks out D.C. third fight was mostly, Stepe didn't really, D.C. wasn't greatly in that fight. You think about the Francis fight, he got, I think what happened to Steve A in that fight was he hurt Francis. He tagged him. He got a little overconfident and then he got tagged himself because that's heavyweight. Because he hurt, he had, he had, he wobbled Francis briefly with a punch and he's like, ooh, I got him. And then he went forward and Francis, you know, did what Francis does. When you think about Steve's losses, even like the one loss he had to Junior Dos Santos, I actually thought he won that. that fight. It was a close decision. Maybe that's one of the fights we should talk about like a

war. But again, that was another one where it's like it was a close fight. It wasn't, you know, so Steve-A typically doesn't get like blown out of the water. Now, John Jones is a different animal. He is the greatest of all time, maybe the most talented, you know, mixed martial artist ever. And he's been, I guess, slightly more active. I mean, it's been almost two years since we've seen him too. But are people right to question and say, Steve is just, this is just, this is just, this just give you a total dismantling, or do people need to give Steve a more respect for the resume he's put together

and the kind of fighter he's been throughout his entire career? Yeah, I certainly get the narrative where people think John's going to blow him out of the water because John can do that to people and has done that to many people. But he's also won some very contentious decisions too. So we can't forget that. It's hard to believe, again,

depending on, if Stipe is in his prime, which he's probably not in his prime, but if he's training like he's in his prime, comes him motivated and put in the work for this camp, I don't believe he's going to get blown out of the water. If Jones beats him, I mean, Jones could be anybody on this planet, I think. So, you know, that's not going to be any surprise. But him just, both of them coming in in great shape and fully prepared,

I don't see Steepay getting blown out, period. Yeah, I agree. And the thing is, is, you know, again, maybe I'm being a little biased here because I did just go to Cleveland and spend some time with Stepe. He looked at tremendous shape.

You know, he looked like he was, you know, he looked like Steepe. I mean, he didn't look like he missed the step. He looked, you know, like Steepie. He looked big and strong and certainly didn't look out of shape or anything. Like, he wasn't taking this seriously. Now again, what I'm seeing

and what is actually happening in the gym behind closed doors, maybe two different things. I don't know. I think the biggest difference with this fight For me, Matt, the reason why I'm not just going to sit here and say, well, it's John Jones all day is because when you look at John's one fight a heavyweight, he fought a guy who has zero grappling. Cyril gone can't grapple. You can't.

I mean, that's his like Achilles heel. He can't grapple. I don't think he would argue that point. Yeah. And he got put against the gauge. He got caught in a guillotine and tapped, you know, inside whatever it was like three minutes or whatever. Steve Bay, you know, I think we all know. has, you know, incredible wrestling.

He's very, very dangerous on top. We saw what he did to Overeign. We've seen him he's done to other guys on top. And he's got really, really good, powerful wrestling. You know what I mean? Like, he's a legit, I mean, he was a legit, you know, Division I college wrestler in Cleveland State. So I think that, to me, is what makes this interesting.

Because if John can't get him down, then it becomes a striking match. And can John beat somebody on the feet? Well, we've seen him do it. I mean, he knocked out Daniel Corme, the head kick. He's got legitimately good striking. But there's also that danger factor because Steve A does have one-punch knockout power. Does John? John's never, now maybe that's different to heavyweight.

Maybe he's just gained so much power in heavyway. But John's never been a one-punch knockout striker. That's never been his game. Did he, yes, he did the head kick with DC. But even that didn't put DC out. He caught him and heard him and he finished him. That, to me, is the biggest concern with this fight, is that John doesn't have that, at least in his career, he's not shown to have that one-punch knockout power.

Steepay does. Go back to the Verdict. Doom fight. Steve-A was backing up and just took one little swing and boop on the chin and Verdun went face first on the canvas. That to me is the biggest concern here for John Jones is just taking an errant shot from Steepay and getting caught. That's heavyweight. That's the nature of this division. No, that's exactly right. It's going to be interesting. I mean, that's why we're going to watch, right? You know, I mean, it comes down to when we talk about the keys of victory, it literally comes down.

to can John take him down? I mean, this is, I wouldn't say it's a striker versus Grapler matchup, but we know a thousand percent that that's going to be John's game plan, and that's his best chance of victory. Now, whether or not he wins on the feet, you know, they're, like you said, they're both really good strikers. So that's not like a guarantee that John can't take him down. He loses the fight.

But that is certainly his path to victory here, at least in terms of game planning. That's your key to victory right there. And there's not really a ton more to it than that. You know, he's got to time Steve A and get in and take him down. Because Steve A is not going to be easy to take down. But when John gets on top of people, it seems like there's something he does. And I don't know exactly what it is, but there's something that he does.

It's just different than other people. Like he just wrecks people from top. I mean, every single time he's got on top someone. It just looks like the fight's about to end right there. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And so in that regard, so he's like key to victory. So if you're coaching John Jones, that's the key to victory.

Get Steepie on the ground, put him on his back. Now, again, Steve-Bey's a legit wrestler. That's not going to be. So how difficult is it to actually get Steep A down? I'm trying to think, I mean, I'm sure he's been taken down at some point, but it doesn't really ring him ahead of when Steve-be's really been taken down in his career. I mean, I'm sure he has. Or didn't D.C. take him down in the first.

first fight? No. I think maybe he got him, maybe once, but I don't think he like kept him down. I don't think it was like a thing where he actually held Steepa down that I can remember. Maybe I'm forgetting. I don't know. Yeah, I'm not remembering it, but I feel like he probably did, but whatever. You know, that's going to be the big telltale sign of whether John's going to dominate this fight or not, I think, right? Whether he wins or not, we don't really know. but, you know, if he can take Steepay down and hold him down, Steepay, you know, is a big guy. Like, it's hard, it's a lot harder to get up

when you're moving that much muscle and that much weight. So that's certainly, you know, if you're John Jones, you know, you want to get Stepe at a distance, right? You know, with those oblique kicks, you know, you're, you know, regular kicks. You want to try to keep them at range as much as you can. and then as soon as he steps inside that that that that that that that that that that that far distant range like you're you're going for the legs or you know clinching up or whatever and and that's

certainly there's no question that's got to be what john jones is thinking to do right he's going to keep him out there try to mess up his legs because stepe is a little bit i would i would say flat-footed but you know he's a heavyweight he's not dancing around like dominant cruise. So that oblique kick is going to be there most likely. And I think that's going to be a huge part of this here, whether that, because he throws that in almost every fight, right, tries to land on that leg. I hope Steve A's been training for that. If he has and has an answer for it, I think he's got a much better shot. But those kicks from the range, I think, are going to set the tone of this fight. And if Steep A can get into punching range, you know,

where he's able to start getting his jabs off and start getting off some combinations and just laying that big one, then it's going to set the tone for him. Now, on the other side for Stepe, you can sit here and say most heavyweights, you know, probably have a couple good rounds in them, and then they start to fade a little bit

because that's just heavyweight. But Stepey actually has been a five-round fighter. He can't go deep-up fights. I mean, he finished D.C. in their second fight in, I think, the fourth round, and then he beat him over a five-round fight in their third fight. So Steepa's got the gas tank to go five-round. rounds. John, I know John blew through Cyril Gond, but John traditionally has been a bit more

of a slower starter, not slow starter, like he gives away rounds like a Mayweather, but more just like he's kind of measured, kind of figuring guys out, and then he kind of dismantles them. That's a little more dangerous at heavyweight, though, because when you're doing that a heavyweight, you may get a punch. So for Steepay, what are the keys to victory? What does Steepen? If you're coaching Steepay, what is his key to victory to beating? Because I said this to Steve, and I'm sure you probably agree with me, Matt, the problem with John Jones,

like John Jones has been the puzzle that's been impossible to solve. Like that's been his greatest attributes. Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty simple for Stepe, not necessarily to do, but, you know, to game plan. And, you know, obviously you have to stop his takedowns. Again, I think John's game plan is going to be to get a takedown at some point.

So you absolutely have to stop that. If he's able to do that and stifle John, his wrestling game, then if he just keeps that pressure on him, like Steep A does pretty well anyway, and keeps that jab in his face until the big shot pops up, you know, starts, because what you got to do with John is you have to win around or two, you know, to, you got to get it, how would you say it? You got to get it like, you got to get him thinking a little bit, you know, because if you notice it in most of his fights, if not all of his fights, you know, it's John kind of setting the tempo and the pace and

excuse me doing what he wants to do when he wants to do it so instead of him thinking about what you're doing he's just thinking about what he's going to do next so I think if steep A can get some pressure on him start popping him with a jab a little bit and stifle the takedowns I think it's going to put John into a situation he's never been in and particularly taking a fight a little bit longer like not looking for that big shot right away that's what's going to open up the takedown but looking for the big shot letting the big shot come to you right in the maybe the third fourth and fifth rounds you start

looking for early john's going to take advantage of that you start popping with a jab keeping that pressure on them and letting that big punch happen and not even necessarily you know looking for that big punch at all but just keep touching them you know keeping that pressure up on them um i think that would pay a lot of dividends as a fight goes on and we also haven't seen john we've only seen him fight the one time of heavyweight. We don't know what he can do in five rounds. Carrying all that weight for five rounds is a lot different than carrying 205.

And like I said, like it or not, I think to me, the biggest factor is, is we still don't know can John take a heavyweight punch? You know, like you look back at the Dominic Reyes fight. Dominic Reyes was a long,

tall, light heavyweight of a similar body structure as John. Now I know Stepe will have the height thing going on, but he's obviously not going to have to reach. John has a bigger reach than Steepay. But size-wise, you know, pretty comparable. I've stood next to both guys. John's a little bigger, but Steve-A's not a small guy, I guess. Like, he's not a D.C. heavyweight.

He's not 5-10 as a heavyweight. He's not a Fador. He's legitimately like 6'4. But like it or not, you know, that heavyweight power is different. And like when you think back about what Dominic Ray is, like, when he tagged John and dropped him in that fight, and everyone's like, oh, my God, he dropped John Jones. Even if it was a flash knockdown and John got right back. up. Can you play that game with a guy as powerful as steep Miochich? I always said, like,

the same name was Francis. Like, while I would always favor John to be to Francis and Ganoe, Francis has that X factor, the nuclear bomb, as we called it, going into the Tyson Fury fight. You know, he has that, he has that X factor, the nuke. That's always present when you're in heavyweight. You know what I mean? Like, that's always there. Derek Lewis has lived by that principle, his entire career. I don't think anyone's ever going to say to you that Derek Lewis is the most well-rounded complete mixed martial artist. But when you can throw that one shot, it completely alters the fight. You know what I mean?

Like I've talked to Curtis Blaze about this. Like Curtis Blaze in his mind, he's like, if I fought Derek Lewis, I'd win 99 out of 100. But the one time it didn't, I ducked my head and he threw an uppercut. And I was faced. I went face down on the canvas. That's the danger of heavyweight. So to me, it's like, what does John do if he plays the John Jones, you know, angles, he's trying to set things up, try to play his time,

and Steepa and corks one and hurts him. Can he recover from that? Can he even take it? We just don't know. Yeah, well, that's it. And that's exactly why I said, Stepe can't look for that big shot, though, because if John reads that big shot come and ducks under

and gets to a leg or, you know, is able to clinch up or something, that's going to cause problems for Stepe. He's going to slow him down. You know, because you got to think John's probably going to try wear his arms out some, clench with them, make him work inside a lot. And then so if Stepe just stays fundamental and always knows that that takedown is a possibility, stays fundamental, it doesn't look for the big shots, just tries to simply land.

I think it would be enough to hurt John. And then, you know, don't try to just go put him away right away. You know, keep pecking away little by little. And it's going to come. Like a heavyweight, like Stepe has enough power. He doesn't need to load up, doesn't need to go for the big shot. And he's not known for that either, right? Some, you know, I don't, I think his style, that's one of the reasons, one of the many reasons why we say that, you know, Stepe is such a great matchup for him.

So, yeah, so, I mean, it's pretty straightforward. But, you know, again, I do think Stepe taking him into those deeper rounds could really pay a lot of dividends for him. If he can get it there, which is going to require him not getting taken down by Jones, because Jones also isn't a knockout guy. So you're looking at Jones, even if he's winning in the striking, if Stipe can continue to keep it on the feet, he's always got that chance. And also, you know, let's not forget two things I like about Stipe's striking in this fight. One, he does a lot of good body work. That pays dividends. Look what he did to D.C.

Just needed that one body shot completely changed the entire direction of that fight. And two, Steebe is not a kicker. You know, Cyril Gahn depends on his kicks. That's one of his best weapons. Steve Bay doesn't. You know, Steve A's a wrestler, so he's always got those legs back and ready to sprawl, ready to spring. But he's not going to give that opening to John where he's going to throw a kick and John can counter by catching it or catching him off the kick and go for the takedown. That's not Steve A's game.

Steve A's never been a kicker. I'm trying to remember the last time I remember seeing Steve A kick, period. So I think that helps him. So like I said, like all the ways that Cyril Gone was almost like a tailor-made matchup for John in his heavyweight debut. He's a big long striker, flashy, big. kicks and zero grappling. It's almost like the idea. It's almost like the exact opposite with Steve.

He's a good wrestler, great boxing, huge power, and the wrestling is, I think, the key. So, um, so Matt, like, listen, I don't think anyone's going to, like, you're going to force me to say, like, who do I think is going to win? The way I pretty much always pick fights and you know this about me is like, who has more ways to win? And I think John Jones has more ways to win, you know, John can. I mean, again, John can. Find a way on the feet. He's done it.

Even if it's not, you know, regularly, he's found a way to do it on the feet. His grappling is world class and it's John Jones. It's like George St. Pierre. It's hard for me to pick against him. But tell me on the flip side, so I'm not going to make you pick because I know Steve A's your guy. On the flip side, tell me why Steve A can win this fight. Well, I'll tell you, I think it's pretty simple. If he can stop the takedowns, I think he has a very, very good shot at winning this fight.

So A, he's got to stop the takedowns. But B, and this is what I was mentioned earlier, is the biggest question with Steve A going into this fight. He's 43 or 42, right? 42, yeah, 42. 42. Like, he's been there, done that. Like, he's already got the legacy.

You know, he's most likely. He's probably comfortable with what he's done. If this wasn't John Jones, would he even come back to fight right now? So how much motivation is that for him to put in those extra rounds, put in that extra work. You know, how motivated is he?

If Stipei is fully motivated, I truthfully would give even lean towards Stepe A in this fight in his prime. I just don't know where he's at. And that's why it makes it kind of a 50-50, maybe even a slight lean towards John, because I do think John is motivated

and plans on fighting after, apparently, from, you know, from maybe Alex Pereira after is what the word on the street is. And that makes me lean towards John because I do think when we talk about the matchup in terms of technical terms, right? It's very close. And Stepe is certainly the built to beat a guy like John Jones or at least compete with him and fight with him. But does he, is he going to have, you know, that little millisecond lag in his step and his punch and his reaction? and that could be the whole game changer here because that's all it's going to take with John Jones.

Yeah, I agree. I totally agree. And also, like, to your point about motivation, like I'm hoping, and just from talking to Steve A, that since I get, is that he's pouring everything into this last fight. Like, he knows this is probably the end for him. He's not said it publicly. He wouldn't say it to me when I asked him the question. He's like, I'm not even thinking about it.

I'm thinking about the fight. But I think we all kind of know this is probably Steve A's last run. But if you're going to have one last run and you're going to go out on John Jones, go out and leave everything in the cage. So maybe he's just pouring every last ounce of himself into this training camp into this preparation, knowing that, you know, when Khabib fought Justin Gachi, we didn't know it was his last fight going in,

but he did. He knew that was going to be it for him. So he poured everything into that. He went out there and beat Justin Gachi and defended his title and then retired. He knew. So maybe that's the steep thing. Maybe he's just like, you know what?

I got one left. I'm going to put everything into this. I'm going to work my ass off. I'm going to come back and look better than ever. And I'm going to beat this guy. And right off under the Sunday. as the one guy who beat John Jones. There's a world where that's real.

Like there's a world where I could see Steve having that mentality. So, yeah, I mean, it's a question. You're absolutely right to ask that question. And I agree that I think, like, we don't have that question about John as much. It's easier to ask that question about Steepa after, you know, four years and 42

and all those kind of things. But on the flip side, my argument would be like, hey, he's got nothing. Like, no one's picking him to win. Like, he just gets to go out there and be Steepen. Like, if he goes out there and learns a knockdown on John Jones comes close to winning but ends up losing like a 48 47 decision that's still kind of a win for steepe in a way you know what I mean so I think I think my head and what I'm hoping for is

this is just steep as like balls to the wall I got nothing left there's no tomorrow there's no I'm gonna fight aspirin after this I'm I'm 42 I got one last one in me and then I'm gonna go for it and I think that's that's a dangerous steep if that was the case and I believe for sure that was the case and was confident and that being the case I would kick stepe in this fight just keeping it completely honest i don't know if that's the case and that's what keeps me up 50-50 yeah no you're absolutely right but but to that point here and i love that you said that even though we don't know for sure it's still 50-50 there's no like guarantee here like i like because i know when you talk to fighters and you talk to people who

know the sport like i talk to brandon gipson i've talked to a lot of the fight you hear it and all the fighters are saying this is a lot closer you're giving it credit for like you can't just you're not just going to roll through Stephen Miochich. The general fan, I get it. He's coming off a loss, four years, he's 42. But remember, heavyweights, skew older. I mean, Francis is 38. It's not like Francis and God was a young guy. I mean, Tom Aspin, we're talking, Tom Aspen, we're talking, he's a young dude.

He's 34. 34 is, like, almost ancient in a lot of weight classes. Like, that's just their prime as a heavyweight's 34. So it's not, and, you know, John's 37, 38. It's not like John's a young guy. So I think, like, you got to take these factors in there and say, yes. And when I asked Steve, and again, I'm not just pumping this up because I talked to Steve-Bid, but I did ask him that question about the time off.

And he's like, I think it was good for me. Like, I need to let my body heal. Remember, when he got knocked out by DC, that was like five months after he fought Francis. And I said, I think he came back a little too soon. Like, I think he took a lot of damage in that fight. He won, but I was like, I think he just, I think he came back a little too soon. And you could argue maybe he did that with the Francis rematch as well. He had the two fights with DC back-to-back, then went in against, you know, Francis a few months later.

Maybe the time off's good. I'm not saying it's great. Again, these are all things I think could work to his favor. Will it? I don't know. Like I said, I'm still leaning John Jones because I just can't not pick John Jones because I will pick John Jones to beat pretty much anyone on this earth. But I think there's an absolute world where Stephen Meotcher goes in there

and shocks the world and lands a right hand and John ends up face down on the canvas. I think there's a real world where that happens. Yeah. So my question is this. Stepe A. Beach John Jones, right? are we going to hear a bunch of people on Monday saying or Sunday saying you know John Jones is it's not not such a great victory John Jones is a light heavyweight right that that's my question and then you know and now is steep A the pound for pound goat right you know there's a there's a lot that

you know Dana's pumped up John for a long time as being that well what if steepe goes in there beats him. Because that's going to raise that question, right? They'll be like, well, he beat a guy that, you know, has only fought at heavyweight once. He's a 205er. Here's why I will counter that. And I don't think that'll necessarily be the case because for the longest time, the narrative on John Jones. And it was a stupid thing.

I hated it. I always thought it was dumb. They're like, oh, why John is so good at heavyweight's because he's so much bigger and taller and longer than guys. There's lots of tall long guys. I mean, you know, Simmy Schilt was. the tallest, longest heavyweight ever, and he still couldn't do it at M.MA. So I never... John made the weight. He did. But here's the other thing I think that works in Steve A's favor

if he does win, is that he does have one fight. I mean, we can't say that he hasn't, and he's been a heavyweight now for basically two years. I mean, he worked his weight. And what did John always say? When I go to heavyweight, that's it for me. Like, I can't, you know, he had the GSP thing where he's like, I can't just, like, go up and down and, like, I need to get my body right for heavyweight. He did it. And he went up and fought Cyril gone. And again, stylistically. is Cyril Gahn a much easier fight for John Jones, sure, but you still got to do it. You still got to win the fight, and he did.

So this isn't John Jones, like, as an experiment coming up to fight Steve Miochich on six months. This is two years of John Jones being a heavyweight, already beating Cyril Gahn. I can't, I can't, will there be people who will make that excuse? I'm sure. People make excuses for everything, but I just don't buy it at this point. John's a heavyweight. There's a reason why everyone's like, John's got to fight Tom. He's got to fight Tom Aspinall.

They're not saying that because he's like heavyweight. They're saying it because John's legitimately heavyweight. So I don't think that would be a factor. But that's how the sport goes. You know how it goes. Like I said, the next day, the narrative suddenly changes. I hope that's not the case. Always.

So does that put steep A number one then? I mean, I don't know. I mean, number one heavyweight for sure. But I don't know about pound for pound. That's a little bit more difficult just because you've been out for so long. and, you know, it's not like Islam's record just suddenly goes away what he's been doing or Alex Perez record just going. I think John's only fought once in the time this TEPA's been out, right?

Yeah, so, I mean, maybe I don't know. It's interesting. It's an interesting argument. But let me ask you this. It's a silly argument, and we know that. It is. But let me ask you this real quick before we move on to the rest of the card. So you brought it up, like, is John going to keep going?

And John this week has come out in interviews and said, Dana is like, I'm sure they're going to fight Tom Aspinall. I'm like Dana, you're Dana, I get it, what you're doing right now. And then like a day later, John comes out and says, there's nothing that Tom Aspinall could do to make me fight him. I don't want to call him a nobody, but he hasn't really done anything. He hasn't beaten anybody. And if there was one guy that was going to make me stick around again,

it would be a guy like Alex Pereira, the light heavyweight champion. He's on a run right now, big star. And immediately the conversation shifts to John is ducking Tom Aspinall. So, Matt, you are a fighter. You know fighters. Is John Jones ducking Tom Aspinall? I guess you kind of have to define what ducking is, right? Okay.

John's not scared. I don't believe that for a second. Is he playing the game and choosing not to fight Tom Aspinall? Absolutely. It's the proper fight to make. I don't think there's any question about that. He wants the bigger fight with Alex Pereira. I don't think that's what a champion should do,

but that's what every champion is doing now, right? They're all wanting to move up a weight class. They're all wanting to fight the big fight. You know, Sean O'Malley wanted to fight Cheeto Vera, right? That's what every champion is doing now. So to put John below like every other champion because of that choice, I wouldn't do that. Is he choosing to not fight Tom Aspinon?

absolutely. I mean, he should fight Tom Aspinall. I think we all agree on that. He absolutely should. It's just, I think it's almost at this point, it's almost a personal taste or personal opinion, like whether you're going to hate on John for not wanting to do that fight or not. He wants the money fight. But, you know, we are in the business of prize fighting, right? Go for the biggest prize. Tom Aspinall, unfortunately, he's not the biggest prize. Is he the most deserving? Should he be the next fight? Absolutely. He's not the biggest prize.

Daniel Cormier said something on his YouTube channel, and I agree with him. He said that 100% John's not scared to anybody. Get that out of your head. I hate that. He's not scared of Tom Aspinall. John Jones is, in my opinion, the greatest fighter of all time. He's not scared of Tom Aspinall. But the point that D.C. raised, and I agree with it, he's like, it's risk versus reward.

is it a bigger risk to go against Tom Aspinall than it is to go against Alex Praheda? Is it a bigger reward going against Alex Pareda versus Tom Aspinall? And that's where you got a pact of this end. Like when, you know, yeah, I mean, listen, you're fighting one of the most devastating strikers to ever enter our sport. Is there a danger? You're not going into a fight against Alex Pryor

and thinking, oh, I'm just going to beat this guy. You know what I mean? Because Alex Pryor is legitimately a nasty, nasty dude. You know, we'd all love to sell all the take downs. wrestling, yes. That is a quote unquote easier matchup. I'll totally agree with that. But then you got to look at the flip side,

which is the money. Him and Alex, as I've argued with people on Twitter about, is probably the biggest fight the UFC could stage that doesn't involve Connor McGregor. John Jones, Alex Pereira is a massive, massive fight. Is John Jones, Tom Aspinall a big fight? Sure.

But does it go anywhere in the same atmosphere as what you would do with Alex right now? No. Because Tom's just not that dude. I'm not saying Tom's not a great fighter. Tom's an incredible fighter, but there's a difference between being a great fighter being a star. Tom's not really a star. Maybe in England he's a star, but they're not going to put that fight in England. They're going to want it in Vegas. And yes, there's going to be a curiosity factor because it's a heavyweight championship fight and it's John Jones being involved. But the star factor is with Alex. The less

risk factor is with Alex. So if I'm John Jones, I mean, we tell guys all the time, Like, remember you're a prize fighter. Like, go for the prize. Well, what's John doing? He's going for the prize. He's going for the bigger prize. And yes, he's taking the less risky fight. I can't fault him for that.

I can't fault him for like, you know, like. Right. The only thing I kind of fault a little bit is where he, you know, he does bring up legacy. And in terms of legacy, I do think Tom Aspinall is the proper fight for legacy, too. Like, he is the interim title holder. and it gives you more of a legacy in terms of short-term legacy you know the fact

is he goes in and takes down Alex Pereira and wrecks him on the ground in two minutes you know like he did surreal gone like no one's going to be shocked and be like dude that was the greatest legacy fight dude you are the greatest ever blah blah blah I mean not that anybody really argues that he's not anyway

but he goes in and does that it doesn't really add to the legacy I don't think if he does that to Tom Aspinall I think everybody sits back and was like fuck you know like after doing after doing you know beating steepe obviously first but then goes and does that tom aspin all like that's a to me that is more of a legacy fight than then alex perera but like you said either look the UFC and the fighters or business it's it's not uh you know i guess what like what what you say like uh like football or something right where it's

you know you fight this you're you know you know this match, this match, or this game, whatever, and then we figure it out from there. It's, you know, you get to pick and choose to some extent. Who the biggest fight is. It is entertainment first, and that's what the people are going to pay to see. Yeah, and I agree with you. Like, I think beating Tom Aspinall would absolutely mean something because we're all very high on Tom Aspinall right now.

But I also said this, and this is an argument I made before, you know, two years ago, all we could talk about was Francis. We've all just kind of forgotten about Francis. We moved on to Tom Aspinall. And here's, I've had a criticism of this whole thing, Matt. I would just say, why are you doing this, John? Like, why are you insane it publicly? Well, people ask you about, like, I asked Steepa about Tom Aspinall,

knowing the answer I was going to get. I asked him the question, 100% knowing he was going to say, I'm not worried about that right now. All I'm thinking about is John Jones. I know Steepa well enough. I've interviewed him enough times. I've been around Steepi enough times to know what he's going to say. But I asked the question.

And he's like Tom's a beast, he's a great fighter, tons of respect for him, but that's not my concern right now. Because I think we all have in our heads, Steve-Ba's probably going to retire. John making that statement makes him look bad. That's what I thought. You know what I mean? Like it or not, when you say Tom Aspinall hasn't done anything and I'd rather fight the light heavyweight champion, that doesn't look good. I'm not saying he's wrong because it is a bigger fight. He's not wrong in saying that's a bigger fight.

but you don't need to say that right now. It just doesn't. That's where we get the whole ducking and scared and all. Even though we're all saying, anyone who knows the sport is saying John's not scared, but you're making people question it by saying it. And that's the problem. You should not say it.

And I was going to say a similar thing, almost the exact same thing. John should have said what Stipe said. Like the fact that he brought up, the fact that he is, going to fight again and it's not going to be the current interim

champion. That was a mistake on his part. You know, he should have, you know, UFC should have sent a PR trainer out there to him or something a bit. My brother, just, how about we don't even talk about the future? Let's focus on what we're doing now and then, you know, we'll figure that out, we'll cross

that bridge when we get there. But he did. He crossed the bridge and open up the door. He has to know that when he says that there's going to be criticism that he's ducking. And again, I think you kind of got to define what ducking is. Like I say, he's not scared.

I mean, he's not, you know, he would fight anybody, I'm sure. I'm sure he has a thousand percent confidence that he would beat Tom Aspinall. But that is the biggest heavyweight challenge in the world if he beats Steepay. Fact, right? That is the next challenge. So if you're going to keep fighting, that's what is expected. of you to do. Yeah, and I think at the end of the day,

and I think this is the one thing that we, everyone should agree on, it's just a bad look. You know, it's a bad look. Like you said, like, is he scared, no, but is he openly avoiding the fight? There you go. You know what I mean?

Like, you're just saying, like, no, he hasn't. Well, he's 8 and 1 with 8 first round, the first or second round finishes. And the one loss was a freak injury, so let's just kind of, you know, that's like John's disqualification loss. I don't really count it. and he's knocked out everybody, he's beating every contender.

I mean, out of the top five right now, I think he's beating four of the guys, three or four of the guys at heavyweight in the top five. You can't say he's done nothing. You can't say that. Like, you can't say he's not done anything. Now, I don't disagree in terms of, like, the risk versus reward. Yeah, it's a riskier fight against Tom Asplano,

and the reward is greater against Alex Prayer. I totally agree with that. But it's almost like, don't say it now. Like, don't say it now, John. Like, you're just setting, because now the narrative is, What you said, define ducking. I don't care what the narrative is. The narrative is your ducking.

Not that you actually are, but the fact you've openly said, there's nothing he can do to make me want to fight him. I'd rather fight the guy who fights a 205 pounds. Not a good look. Yeah, well, if you define it as I'm scared and don't want to fight this guy because he might beat me, that's not what John's doing. If you're saying he's ducking because he's strategically working his way

into a bigger fight to make more money, then okay. ducking him. Fair game, right? Like, you know, just, you got to define what that term means. And, you know, people kind of toss that word around a little bit loosely in our sport, you know, especially like, you know, Dana has set the bar for that too, right? I mean, the way they've ran the UFC is like the best fight the best. So he has set it up that way for us when guys, when it is the two best, not fighting

the two best, they're going to call it ducking. You know, you hear that word all the time in boxing. And, you know, sometimes maybe it is. Maybe sometimes it's not. But, you know, most of the time, I think it's, you know, Floyd heard that term 10 billion times in his career. And most people have him listed as like top three pound for pound greatest of all the time. So, you know, did he lose anything by a bunch of nerds sitting around calling him saying that he's ducking?

Not really. So, you know, so, you know, when people toss that word around, like, like, What are they talking about, you know? Yeah. I just think ultimately is just not a good look. You know what I mean? Just don't say it. It's not a good look.

Yeah, I agree. Take the high road. Just be like, oh, Tom's a great fighter, but we'll see what happens. And maybe that's the generic answer. It's the PR answer. But that's the answer you should give. Don't say, I'm just not going to fight him. I'm going to go after the 205 pound champion.

Because we're like it or not, that's not a good look. That's not, that's like if Islam is saying, I don't want to fight Armin, I've already beaten him once. He's done nothing to prove it. give me Ilya Teporia. Now, would that be a big fight? Sure, but you're calling out the featherweight champion. You're calling out the guy of weight class below you.

That's, you know, that's not generally. You generally fight up, right? You generally want to fight up in your world, in your, in your fight. You know, you want to fight the guy that's supposed to be bigger and bad or and better than you. You don't typically go down. You don't hear Islam saying, give me Marab. I want to fight Marab.

Like, what's, like, what's, huh? Like the guy, too, what are you doing? That's not how this works. So it's just a bad look. I don't care how you paint it. I don't think John's scared of him. And if John fought Tom Aspinall, would I still lean towards John Jones? Yeah, because I'd favor John Jones over probably anybody.

But you're saying it openly is a bad look. Yeah, well, I want to see Tom fight everybody because I do want to see him fight Tom, John Jones. But it doesn't look like it's going to happen. So, you know, that's the game we're playing. And look, John Jones and Alex Pereira, it's still a fight. fun fight. You know, it's still going to have a great hype behind. It's still going to have a great pump up. We're all going to want to watch it. And like you said, it might be the biggest fight outside of Connor coming back. So I think it's still a pretty exciting matchup.

You know, we're just going to be like, it will probably end up being let down if the fight happens because we'll get all pumped up and, you know, they're going to have great PR behind it. Alex is going to look like he's a murderer and this, which he is. But John, John, Jones is going to go in and it's going to look like surreal gone. For the most likely, it's UFC, MMA. We don't really know. But that's probably what we're looking at here. Yeah, I think that's, yeah, but again, like, I'm not saying John's wrong.

I'm just saying you don't need to say it publicly. Like, don't. Don't say it publicly. Yeah, say it behind. He just says it. He don't give a fucking. Yeah, I mean, yeah, he doesn't care. He clearly doesn't care.

And again, I appreciate some level of that, too. Maybe say it after the final. It just, to me, it's just, again, I don't. That's the way I boil it down. It's just a bad look. You know, like, don't. I even he just said, even he just said,

Tom Aspnell hasn't earned it, and you stop there. People can bitch and moan about that. But the fact that you openly said, well, Alex Pereira, the light heavyweight champion. You're like,

hold on now. Again, it's just a combination of, like, things working against John. Again, he's not wrong. What I'm curious to know is, what did John Jones do this weekend? Did he go on his Coke binge

like he has done in the past? Because if he does, I don't think that's going bode so well against Steepa. I mean, he did it against Daniel Cormier, so, you know, can't take nothing away from the guy. I mean, that's a, that's a godlike maneuver right there.

Like, you go on a Coke binge and they go fight fucking Daniel Cormier. But, man, he's got Steepa this time. This is a different beast here. Yeah, it's going to be interesting. Yeah, he was in Vegas this weekend, so it's a little worrisome. A little worrisome.

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It only lasted basically at one round in 19 seconds because it got into the second round. Oliver caught and put him down in 19 seconds into the second round became champion. But we are dealing with a slightly different Charles Oliver. He's had a couple losses since then I'll tell you a bit of a rough run. And then obviously Michael Chandler's coming off a two-year absence with the whole Connor thing. Here's my question, Matt, because I think, like, in terms of like the fight breakdown, this is one of those fights where it's like, it can go either way. It just depends on who lands first, really. I think that's, you know, if Chandler can actually put Charles down and keep him down,

I think he can absolutely win this fight. If Charles can survive early and put Chandler down, he can win this fight. But here's my question, Matt. We went through two years of us going back and forth. Is Chandler making the right mood waiting? Is he ruining his career by waiting? Is he what should he be doing right now? And we kind of waftled a little bit, but towards the tail end, we're like,

dude, he's got to, like, put a deadline on this thing. He's got to fight or, you know, shit or get off the pot, so to speak. He's finally here. He's finally back. He finally moved on. And I'm giving Chandler tons of credit for that because he just, he's like, I can't keep waiting for Connor because as we've said, we doubt Connor's ever fighting again. Is this must win for Chandler, though?

I mean, he lost to Porier two years ago and he lost to Gauchy, so he's technically off a couple losses. But he's been out for two years. And Chandler said, Chandler told me he thinks this is a perfect opportunity to go out, beat Charles Olivera, fight Connor. I know, I know, but fight Connor. And then go on to fight. the winner of Islam and Armin.

Now, is there a world where that can happen? I think there is, if that all plays out that way, because Conor, like it or not, is still a massive fight, and Islam hasn't fought Chandler, so I think there's a world where that can happen. But if you're Chandler, 38 now, off two years away, and you're getting this rematch with a guy who beat you for the title, is this, like, must win for Chandler.

I mean, Chandler's always going to be an entertaining guy. Chandler's not going to get released for anything stupid like that. I'm just saying like for Chandler to kind of reignite his career, does he need to win here? Yeah, that's a great question because he's in a tough situation if he loses his fight, right? You know, he's got to fight down in the rankings and he's got to get a win to get back up. He's going to have a much longer path to the title at that point, I think. So, yeah, that puts him in a very tough situation. And then, you know, does Connor still want to fight him?

You know, again, we don't know what's going to happen if Connor ever even does come back or anything. But, you know, if he loses, does Connor still going to want that fight? So, yeah, there's a lot of questions on that that I didn't even think about that you just brought up. But, you know, first he's got to get through Charles Olivera. And it's funny because you were just talking a little bit ago about who has more paths to victory. and it's pretty clearly Charles Olivera, right? But picking against Chandler is tough, right? Because we see what happened in the first fight.

Like Charles was getting his ass kicked in that first round and then comes back and finds away. So that makes an uber difficult pick, but what a great fight, you know? And over five rounds, you know, I think that bodes well for Charles Olivera, if I'm keeping it real. Yeah, it could.

And I think, I think the key is, for me, the key is Chandler can't, like, if Chandler goes balls to the wall, he's got to do it in a smart way, you know, like, he can't go out there and just like, I got to get a first round finish and get him out of here. Because typically speaking, Chandler's got good cardio. He's always shown good cardio. He's had five-round fights before. You know, remember the Alvarez fights back in the day, he's always had good cardio. But it's that quick.

Real quick, to be clear, when I say that the five rounds doesn't, as well for him? Is it because of his cardio as much as that gives Charles more and more opportunities? 100%. 100% I agree. And as I said, typically the way I pick fights or who has more ways to win. Chandler, or you see me, as you said, Oliver clearly has more ways to win

because he can beat you on the feet and he can very easily beat you on the ground. That is the last place you want to go with the guy like Charles Olivera. I think where I think Chandler has something working for him right now is I think like we talked about the motivation in the Stipe A Jones situation. Like who is motivated?

Is Stepe coming in to get one last paycheck? Or is he actually coming out there to say, hey, I want to be the guy to beat John Jones. There's two different kinds of motivation there. For Chandler, I think he knows. Like, he's in a much different situation now where he can't, like he is one of the most exciting fighters in the world. He's not going to go anywhere with a loss.

He's still going to have big fights. But this might be the Baker Break moment in terms of like, where does he go from here? If he really wants to be, if he still wants to be considered a top two or three guy in the world, He has to win here. He cannot lose a second fight to Charles Olivaire. Now, could he still get Connor? Sure, because, you know, like you said, maybe Conner's like, hey, give me Chandler now.

I want Chandler more than ever. He's coming up a loss to Charles Olivera. There's still that world. But if he's serious about pursuing a lightweight title, because remember, you know, Dustin has got like one fight left. He's gone. Gachy, I think pretty clearly is, like, on the tail end of his career as well. Those are a couple guys that have beaten him. If he can avenge the loss to Charles Olivera and then maybe he gets Connor, I know, or whatever.

maybe he's already beating Dan Hooker. Let's not forget about that. He knocked Dan Hooker flat in the dirt when they met a couple years ago. There's a world where he could get into title contention pretty quickly. Like there's a world where that happens. But the opposite is also true. If he loses Charles Olivaera, then it's like, well, now you've got to fight Fazeve. You got to fight Gamrod.

You got to fight maybe Moikano. You got to fight Patty Pemblit. Like that's a whole other world of what you're getting into. Not saying you can't win those fights. I'm just saying like that's going down, not going up. so I think I think we're going to get a pretty fired up Michael Chandler. Now it doesn't really matter though because Charles Oliverers fought plenty of fired up people and he's beaten most of them.

Yeah and it makes it interesting because we you know like you said when you pick the fights based off of who has the most passive victory unfortunately for Chandler like he basically lives off his one path to victory he's going to throw the big shot and hurt you and we've seen Charles Oliver get hit with big shots and get hurt a lot. So it makes it such a tough fight to call. And he was smashing Charles Charles Oliver in their first fight. So it makes it so hard to call. But that's why they made the rematch too, right?

Like this is an exciting fight. And what does it do with Charles Oliver if he wins? You know, I think it's kind of strange thinking this is a very potential title contender match when both guys are coming off of losses. But it's actually a realistic scenario. I think, only because there's really not a lot of other guys in that division that have fought at the level that these guys have fought at for so long and are still deserving of title fights. So it makes a really interesting situation all around, I think. Before Charles went on this run a lightweight, the biggest question we always had about Charles was, you know, he tended to fade.

Like when he wasn't leading the fight, he struggled to come back. And then he proved this all wrong by doing what you did DePorei, doing it. DePorei doing what he did to Gagee. He was a wrecking ball, an absolutely Terminator during that run. That was one of the most impressive runs in the recent history of the sport. And it started with, I mean, it didn't start with, but, you know, Chandler was on that list.

He got absolutely demolished in that first round, comes back and knocks him out in the second round. Incredible. But my question about Charles, like, we're going to bring that up again. Not necessarily like he can't come back. I think we all know he can now. But his two losses are to Makachev and Sarukian. Now, Serukin was

a split decision, very close fight, but I don't know that like even beating Chandler's going to get him right back in that race again, maybe. But like if Islam beats Armin, which I would favor him to do if we're playing the, you know, the futures game here. Does Islam really have a lot of interest in running the back with Charles again off one win? You know what I mean? Yeah, that is the difficult part, right? Because he's fought both of these guys already. Yeah.

So you wonder, like, you've got motivation. Like is Charles, you know, does he like, does he see a path forward? he's like, I want that title again. But unless, you know, unless Armin wins and you can say I went to a split decision, when does Islam? Like, I don't know if Islam's going to be, oh, yeah, give me Charles again. I want to, that wasn't a fight. Like, he dominated Oliver.

That was like, I was, that was, he beat him on the feet and he beat him on the ground. That wasn't like a war. Yeah, he should admit him, didn't he? Yeah, he did. He beat him up on the feet, knocked him down on the feet and then choked him out on the ground. Like, it was not a close fight. Does Islam really have interest in running that back? I don't think Islam would avoid anything.

But I don't know if the UFC would be jumping. jumping at that. You know what I mean? Like, oh, that's... But the question is if Charles wins and doesn't get title shot, like, who would? I mean, I guess it depends on who else is out there, what else they do, I suppose. But, yeah, because I don't think they're going to run the rest of that. Yeah, I mean, we'd have to look at all the rankings and all that kind of stuff. But I'm just, like, no one's just coming to mind that would be as deserving as Charles, you know, even, even though it's Michael Chandler, you know, it's not, you know,

it's not Arm and Sarukian or whatever, right? But, um, Yeah, I think it puts the whole division in a resting spot. You said with Porre and Gagee, both on the tail ends, probably not looking for title fights right now. You know, I mean, certainly always going for the big fight, the title fight, but I don't think Porier is necessarily looking to get a title. Gagee is probably, you know, if he wins a fight, he probably start looking for the title.

But he kind of puts the whole division, you know, in a funny spot where now you know maybe now you're looking at those up-and-comers with like Moikano and maybe even Patty you know some of these guys and let's not forget max holloway's coming he said I'm lightweight now you know and he knocked out he knocked out gaichi I think I think max is going to end up being a better lightweight now because I do think I do think those weight clubs do get to you you know what I mean you do them enough like would max it would max I mean I think I'lliott's a poor can knock anybody out but like can max like max like max like max takes those punches at lightweight, maybe easier than he can take off at featherweight,

you know what I mean? So Max Holloway is a factor in there. Maybe Max comes in and gets one big win, and then he's getting it. I mean, who would complain about Max getting a title shot, really? I mean, you know, if he comes in and beats Fazeve or one of these other, you know, or maybe he fights Porriere in a rematch. I know there's been buzz about that. Maybe if Charles wins, it's Charles and Max.

Yeah, let's say they have history. I mean, you know, they had that one weird fight and Holloway beat him when Charles hurt his neck or whatever. I remember that? It was like a really weird. Yeah, yeah. I forgot about that. So, I mean, that's there as well.

I mean, Chandler and Holloway, how's that not a fun fight? You know what I mean? So I'm just saying, like, I think, weirdly, it's an easier path to a title for Chandler than it is for Olivera because he doesn't have that history with Armand and Islam. So, and I think to me, Chandler's got to be fully motivated because he just spent two years on the sideline of everyone telling him he was doing a fool's error and waiting for Connor because Connor wasn't coming back. and the prophet Matt Brown was 100% right.

Connor didn't come back. I think, you know, again, maybe I'm playing too much into it, but I just feel like Chandler knows, I'm not saying it's do or die, because, again, Chandler's not going anywhere. But I think he's got to know, like, if he wins, he's on a path to get what he wants. Well, if he does lose,

he kind of turns into, at least for the short term, that exciting guy that we want to see fight, not the guy that is going to potentially be a time. title fighter one day or have the title one day. And I don't know Chandler at all. So I don't know how much that motivates him. It sounds from everything that I hear like his motivation is to get the title. So, um, and I kind of didn't really like the way he kind of had planned out the next couple years the way he did. You know, like he's maybe looking ahead of Charles Oliver a little bit. I kind of don't really like when people think like that. But, you know, we'll see. You know,

Chandler, the one thing about him is like, you kind of know what you're going to get, right? He's going to come in. He's going to throw bombs. And he's going to, if he hits you, it's going to hurt really fucking bad. You know, so it's almost like it, you know, that's just this style. Like I don't see him really changing that style. So I don't know if that mindset of looking ahead really makes a difference or not with him. So in terms of picks, who are you taking?

Is it Oliver or Chandler? I'm going to lean towards Olivera because, you know, I'm going to play off of your system. Like, he does have more, gosh, I keep burping today. He does have more past the victory. And Chandler really has the single path. And, you know, if he lands that shot, then, okay, I'm wrong. But, you know, if Charles can just avoid that knockout punch, you know, I think he has so many ways to find a victory here. I'm going against myself by saying this,

but I'm going to lean Chandler for the one reason that every fight that Chandler's in, he's been a couple seconds away from winning. He had Gaichy hurt. He had Gauchy hurt, and Gauchy obviously survived. He had Poria hurt bad in that first round, and Poria came back.

He had Olavera pretty much out of there, and Olavera somehow survived. There's enough there for Chandler that's like he's going to hurt you. Can you survive? You did it once. You're playing the odds of you doing the second time. And that's where I'm like, and I think, weirdly, I think Chandler taking the time off,

maybe not two years, but I think taking some time off was good for him. Because, dude, you get your head rattled enough. You go through those wars. Need a little break. You know, he's healthy. He looks like he's in phenomenal shape. I'm going to lean Michael Chandler to finish what he started in the first fight. Because, again, you play that game long enough.

It will come back to buy you. you and I think that even in losses, Chandler's hasn't been just totally outclassed. He's hurt Yerci. He hurt Porre. He hurt Olavera. He just ended up losing. I think that factor. And again, I'm playing the mental side of things, Matt.

I do wonder if maybe Charles is in a slightly different place now off of losses. Now, again, he beat Benile Daryush in the middle of that. I don't know that Benile was really that dude in terms of like top lightweight, very good lightweight, but I don't know if he was like, you know, the top three. or four, but you lose to Islam and a heartbreaker to Armin, a fight. You lost by a split decision, razor close fight, but you lost. You're not getting the title shot, Islam or Armin is. You have those two losses. Those guys are fighting next. The chances you're going to jump right back in there against one of them, maybe not as likely just because you do have that history. So I do wonder, like,

you know, is there maybe just a little bit of like, you know, a little bit of malaise, a little bit of lackluster feeling going into this one? I already beat this guy, knocked him out, won the title. I have fights against the two guys who are already fighting for the title. What's my motivation here? He's a little bit of hesitation. I wonder, like, you know, he gets clip one good time and maybe Chandler just gets him out of there. So I'm leaning Chandler. I'm being honest.

I'm leaning Chandler. I think that's a very solid question. And with Olive Farrah, and, you know, I mean, he's been here for a long time, too. He's got a lot of fights. And, you know, is he going to show up for this one? Because I think that's sort of one of the knocks against him. He just doesn't show up for fights sometimes. You know, he was kind of fading away.

People used to say he would quit. you know, and he's certainly proved people wrong in that. But, you know, if he's not mentally all the way there for this fight, that could be a problem. But you could almost ask the same thing with Chandler, right? Is he going to be mentally all the way there? He's been out two years. So, you know, we're certainly going to be looking at, okay, who's going to show up that night? Because it is that close of a fight that who shows up is going to just play a factor, right?

Who's game that night? Who warms up properly? who ate the right food, you know, who didn't get the diarrhea after the weight cut, who had a better weight cut, you know, who slept better the night before, you know, those little things that we really don't have any insight into it all. The insight that we do have, you know, just based off their fighting styles, which is all we can base it off of our opinions, we have to go with, you know, kind of a gut feeling, right? Like, is Chandler going to finish him with the big shot or is Charles is going to survive it and find a way to win or just not get hit with it at all.

And that's really like a gut feeling thing. That's not really a, it's not a solid pick either side. I'm going against my instincts too because I just said, I usually pick the guy who has more ways to win. I'm telling you right now, Charles Olivaire has more ways to win. But just I'm going with that gut feeling. There's just something my gut saying, like, I think we're going to see a very highly motivated Michael Chandler is like, I need this one. I need to go out and beat this guy because, you know, I've wasted a lot. a lot of time waiting for Connor.

It didn't happen. I need to win here. And he's getting a chance to avenge one of his losses. That doesn't happen every day. And also, like you said, like, we not go. Sometimes when it's a rematch, like, the guy who lost is more motivated because the guy who won already won. Like, he already beat you.

He already knocked you out. Is he as like, oh, man, I can't wait to do it again? I mean, you know, like I said, that happens. So, again, it's just a little bit of the mental side on Charles where I'm like, I think I lean Chandler, but will I be shocked at all of hair pulls at 100%? There's no way to be shocked. You cannot be shocked by anything Charles Oliver does at this point. If you are, you're not paying attention.

Yeah, this is not what those fights that I would be willing to put any money on. 100%. Yeah, no chance at that. This is a, but this is a really, really, really good card. I mean, obviously, listen, we're all going to be paying attention to the main event and the co-main event. But we got, you know, Bo Nickel making his return against Paul Craig. Obviously, we got... Which is an interesting one, which is a very, very interesting fight.

actually. Yeah. Chris Wybin and Eric Anders is a really interesting fight. Jim Miller and Damon Jackson. There's always a chance you can hear one of the commentators actually accidentally call him Damon Martin, which I do enjoy when that happens. Joe Rogan's done it a couple times. I think Dominic Cruz has done it a couple times. I always text Damon after the fight like, sorry, man, because like they call him

Damon Martin occasionally. I'm like, slip my name in there somehow. So Rogan's done it a couple times. I know it's really funny when Rogan does it. So Jim Miller fighting Damon Jackson. Yeah, so some decent fights on here, man. obviously you got oh jonathan martinas and marcus mcgee that's actually a really fun fight so you know i mean listen you know it's a it's a paperview so we're always kind of leading towards the the co-main and main

but yeah and the co-main and main in this one are bangers i'm excited for both of them sure sure and the the paul craig bo-nickel one sparks a little bit of extra interest in me because this might we might get to see bow stand up this time yeah right this might i mean game plan wise like you probably would rather stand with paul craig uh You know, Paul Craig might pull guard or whatever and, you know, do his silly stuff that he does. I call it silly, but, you know, it works. He's a great fighter. But I hope that that's the way it plays out.

We get to see some of Bo Nichols stand up. We've seen short bursts of it, you know, seeing him drop whoever it was. We've seen some bursts of it, but I'm interested to see how he actually is on the feet for, you know, setting things up and, you know, having a good jab or a good teep or, you know, or some kicks. You know what I mean? Like, let's see a little bit

holistically more of this game. And this is by far as tough as match with him. Paul Craig's legit. We know Paul Craig's a legit dude. So this is a real interesting matchable. It says, it's not a give me.

This guy's got a nasty ground game, good triangles, good off the bottom. I think that's why they gave him to Bo Nicol because it's like, well, here's a guy who's actually really good on the bottom. Like, he can actually hurt you on the bottom. So, yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, maybe Bose in his head,

like, maybe I don't want to take this guy to the ground. Maybe I want to beat him standing because there's that danger on the ground. So it's interesting, man. Like I just saw this thing the other day, Bo Nickel did the Demetius Johnson podcast, and he said, you remember a couple years ago, he did a grappling match with Gordon Ryan? Do you remember that?

And he said, he did it. He was still in wrestling. He did it for fun. He's like, yeah, he took the match, and he's like, I guess I should learn some jiu-jitsu. And so he took three jiu-jitsu classes and went and grappled Gordon Ryan. Now, did he lose? Yes.

But did he go almost 15 minutes? Did he suplexed Gordon Ryan at one point? I was like, damn, that's some balls right there to be like, I've got the greatest grappler in the world. Let me go take like three jiu jitsu classes to get ready. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's what's interesting with his fight too, because Bo might go right into Paul's game. He might take him down and go right into that, which would also be a little bit interesting, right? Let's see how good is jihitsu is because the only jih Tijuana that I know that I've seen, you know,

against a good jihiscii guy was gordon ryan and that kind of doesn't count right it's gordon ryan so yeah so it could be interesting either way so i guess it's ultimately it's just watching the progression of bow nickel is is what's going to be interesting about this fight and i'm sure that's what everybody's interested in and you know we can't discount paul gregg either i mean he has some nasty jihitsu and generally the bane of wrestlers existence is the triangle yeah well i like you know you i think you know my opinion on bow nickel i've been super high on him ever since he came out of college. I think this guy's got all the potential in the world. But potential's one thing. You've got to prove it. And this is a good fight for him to prove it.

Matt, so UFC 309 this weekend. You are getting ready to travel over to Thailand and a little fun stuff over in Thailand again, but you're still going to come back for the breakdown as we do post-fight at actually, probably a better chance you're going to watch these fights live because it's not going to be in the middle of night for you. So yeah, yeah, I'll be watching them on a Sunday morning, wake up, eat some breakfast, watch the fights. That'd be pretty nice. It depends. on how jet-lagged I am and how fucked up my schedule is. But yeah, we shout out to Fight Circus for bringing me over there. I'll be over.

And we got some fun surprises coming up for this card. These guys, they put on the wildest show you ever see. Like the whole fight circus is the perfect description of it. It is a fucking circus. Yeah, we'll look forward to that. And as always, we'll be back to break down all the action. UFC 309 goes down Saturday. We will be obviously covering everything.

Also, by the way, Do we didn't say this? I'll, before we get out of here, who you pick, and Jake Paul or Mike Tyson, they're fighting on Friday? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Man, do I have to pick?

I mean, it's sad and depressing, but I guess I'm going to pick Jake Paul because, you know, Mike Tyson's 58 years old, and I know he's Mike Tyson, but he's 58 years old, so I guess my, my prediction, please, for the love of God,

don't like Mike get hurt. That's my prediction. Please, that's my request. Just don't get. get hurt. Well, I am going to be an optimistic guy here, and I'm going to go ahead and pick Mike with very little confidence because he's 58 years old. And even 10 years ago, I think this would be an easy call. But unfortunately, yeah, he's 58. You know, he's going to be in a wheelchair in like 10 years probably. So, you know, I'll go ahead and pick Mike just for the hell of it.

Yeah. I mean, I'll pick Jake, but this is like, again, I don't care who wins as long as Mike doesn't get carried out of there. That's all I really care about. That'd be a nice thing. That scares me. Like that's, you can't, I mean, dude, 58. I don't care. Like, you know, like, that's a scary thing.

Yeah. Well, I hope, I hope Mike is at least ready and prepared, you know, and hope he feels great. And it's healthy and walks out healthy. I agree on the same thing. I mean, hey, there is that chance that he fucking explodes a big left hook. And, you know, we don't hear from Jake Paul for a couple hours afterwards. So, you know, we can, that's what we're all going to watch for and hope for. And props to Jake Paul for putting us all in that position to hate them and watch.

So it's, yeah. What a shit? That's the, that's the bigger fight circus there. Yeah. Yeah. Has anyone ever rooted more for one fighter than people will be rooting for Mike Tyson on Friday night? So, yeah, I just, yeah, like, yeah, I just, I want Mike to be able to walk out of the ring. That's my biggest.

That's, if I, if I don't care what else happens, if Mike can, walk out of the ring, I'm good with it. That's all I care about. That's a win. That's a win in my book. Matt, where can people check you out?

They want to throw some support your way, as they always do, as you get ready to head over to Thailand and come back and talk some more U.S. 309 with us after the fight. Yeah, I'll try to document some of my trip on the Instagram, at I'm the Immortal. And Adam the Immortal also on Twitter,

the Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. Also, I've got to give a shout out to my substack, which is, the mortal wisdom. I had to think about it for a second. I shouldn't know that better. Substack, have that newsletter coming out every week. And

yeah, those are those best spots to see me. Love it. Well, Matt, we'll be back next week to talk about the fallout from UFC 309. Obviously, safe travels over to Thailand. A big thank you to everyone that tunes into the show. Make sure you check us on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify. And of course,

find all your event coverage for Jake Paul, Mike Tyson, depressingly, and as far as UFC 309 as well. on the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I'm Damon Martin. We'll see you back next week for another edition of The Fighter versus the Writer.

Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then. Podcast Network.