MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown RIPS Critics Taking Aim at Tom Aspinall After UFC 321 No-Contest

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin discuss the fallout from UFC 321 and Tom Aspinall not being able to continue after an eye poke ended his first title defense as undisputed champion. Brown responds to critics saying Aspinall should have fought with one eye plus did Ciryl Gane expose him in that first round? Plus we’ll talk Jon Jones vs. Alex Pereira or Conor McGregor headlining the UFC White House card and much more. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When I got a great deal on a great gift at Winners, I started wondering, could I get fabulous gifts for everyone on my list? Like this designer fragrance for my daughter. At just $39.99, how could I resist? This luxurious will throw for my sister. This gold watch for my partner? A wooden puzzle for my niece? Leather gloves for my boss?

Ooh, European chocolate for the crossing guard? At these prices, could I find something for everyone at Winners? Stop wondering. Start gifting. Winners, find fabulous for less. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Back to the fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, we are now in the aftermath of UFC 321, probably not the ending anybody wanted,

with the main event ending in a no contest after an eye poke. Tom Aspinall still holds onto the belt, but not quite the ending anyone expected. Mackenzie Dern won a title. Umar-Margo-Metoff got back on track, but I think everyone, I've been pretty much everyone is just talking about what happened in the main event. you I think we won't I can't remember like I saw a stat last night I don't think we've ever had like a fight into no contest like when a title fight at least not like in that regard but I'm not gonna sit there and play stats on it like how many times this happened but obviously unfortunate ending I mean it would only happen in the UFC's current heavyweight division against Tom Aspinall right like like who else would this possibly happen to yeah I mean it's just like weird like this is like like trying to put a positive spin on a negative situation. situation. Like, at least you, at least you keep the idea of this division alive for a couple more

months because if Tom Aspinol goes out there just knocks a surreal gone, like, where does he go? Like, outside of, you know, maybe calling for John Jones, which we've already assumed that fight's not going to happen. Maybe he gets Alex Prayer to come up or something because, like, Volkov won last night, and I'm glad he won because, good God, Yelton Al-Meda cannot do any kind of offensive damage. But, you have no option. So, I mean, weirdly, like, even though the ending sucked, like, at least we're going to see them run it back again next year.

At least for a little while longer, Cyril Gond remains, like, a viable contender. Yeah, right? I mean, we'll see. I don't know, man. If Tom Aspernel would have won, I mean, there's always another guy, you know, like, like, how many times have we thought that in combat sports, not just in UFC or a particular division, just in general. It's a constant thing of like, like, oh, there's no one left. He's the greatest ever. or, you know, like these types of talks always happen.

And there's always another guy. There's always someone that gets pumped. There's always someone doing something. Anyway, on that point, it does, I wouldn't say I'm, that's really any consolation for me. You know what I mean? Like, I wanted to see the two fight. It was shaping up to be a good fight.

It was shaping up to, like, I think Surreal probably won that first round. I think he was at least ahead, you know, who knows what could happen. But, I mean, it was looking like it would be a good fight. It didn't look like he was just going to fall over for a takedown, you know. I think Tom had attempted a little bit, not, you know, hadn't put everything it hadn't to a takedown yet or anything. But it didn't look like surreal was just going to fall over, which in the past is kind of, you know, look like that a little bit,

not totally. But, yeah, so, you know, it looked like we're going to have a, a good matchup and Tom didn't like he said didn't look like he was pushing for a take down look like his game plan was to stand and strike with him maybe he was waiting for the right moment right but it looked like it was about to be a war yeah and and i want to give credit where credit this is cyril gone because i think a lot of people and i'll be honest i probably did too kind of wrote him off in this fight like tom is so well-rounded and i you know you and i have talked about this many times like tom asplen all we've thought was going to be like the biggest possible challenge

to john jones which is why we wanted to see that fight so you desperately and John Jones ran through Cyril Gond like a hot knife through butter. I mean, he took him out of there in two minutes and choked him out. But we always have to remember, like, you know, nobody is John Jones. You know, nobody is John Jones. And so like, I think we all got kind of pulled into that, that ideal gone was just kind of a one-dimensional fighter. And he didn't look great in the Volkov fights. So we're like, man, this is just probably going to go well for him. He looked great. I mean, he looked really good. Fast on his feet, elusive. He popped. He busted Tom's nose. I mean, look good.

Like legitimately good. And obviously it's unfortunate with the eye poked the way it happens. I'm curious your opinion on this, Matt, because we live in a world where fighters are regarded as the toughest and baddest people on the planet, men and women. And rightfully so. I mean, like I said, I like boxing. I like football. I like a lot of contact sports. But I think it's well documented.

Like fighters, like we've seen fighters with broken limbs try to go back out and fight in a round, you know, because it's just like the nature. Like you said, like you had to kill you to get out of there. Like you do not ever want to get taken out of a fight. That's just the nature of being a fighter. A lot of times fighters have to be safe from themselves. But in these situations with like eye pokes or fouls and end fights, I've noticed this consistent narrative of everyone kind of turning on the guy who got fouled and had with Al Jemann Sterling.

He got blast with the illegal knee by Peter Yon and it's his fault. Bilal Muhammad gets stabbed in the eye by Leon Edwards. can't continue, it's Bilau's fault. You know, now it's Tom Aspinall gets jabbed in the eye, and it seems like the narrative is switched to where it's like, man, you want it out of there. You were losing to fight. Now, too, was he losing that first run?

Yes, he wasn't getting knocked out. He wasn't getting knocked around. Like, he was losing the first round, but it's one round. Like, come on. But, like, that seems to be the repetitive narrative with fouls now. Like, we're so used to fighters just fighting through everything. I mean, to their detriment. Look what Kevin Holland did last week,

and I don't think that guy should have come back out if he took that nut shot. Like he got blasted in the balls a couple times and just ended up fighting and lost the fight. Like, I'm just like, dude, like live to fight another day,

man. Like, I know that that sucks. But, like, we've had this, like, prevailing narrative now that,

like, the guy who gets fouled is somehow to blame. Bro, what a great point, man. I mean, I kept trying to, to kind of,

you know, before the podcast, I kept trying to think of, like, how I wanted to, to phrase this, you know, because I was really been to,

disgusted with that narrative that you're talking about where everybody's blaming Tom Aspenon. I couldn't really come up with words to phrase it. I think you just hit it right on the head, though. Like where did this come from? Like how did he do anything wrong? And then, you know, people saying, oh, he should have just sucked it up with one eye. Get the fuck out of here.

Like, what are you talking about? Like, we're not, we're not in a death match, you know? Like, this isn't fucking. like street fighter or you know it's not a video game and it's like it you know this is a professional competition you know like like he wants to win and give himself the best chance of winning and for one I mean I think Tom Aspinall would have continued if you know had had there been I don't know had there been the right circumstance if he you know I mean like if his life was on the line or something, you know, but he's like, he's like, bro, he's like, I can't see out of my

eye. He probably couldn't see how his other eye very well either, the one that got knuckled fucking deep. It's like, live to fight another day, like try it again, go again, you know, like, if this was, you know, if this was like anything other than I think this match, like, I don't think it would even be talked about like that, you know what I mean? It was just like this particular match, the circumstances just added up where now Tom Aspinall is an easy target. I don't like, like, it's just so weird to me that like we've gotten to this place now where the guy who gets fouled is to blame. And like, I don't get like, I don't think, I honestly don't think Surrogon did it. Like he wasn't trying to eye him. You know what he was. He just put his hand up.

Just put his hand up. That's just a natural instinct when you're exchanging like that. That happens all the time. And I don't think. think he was doing as a dirty fighter, anything like that. Like, I'm not accusing him to that. It was a foul. It was an accidental foul. He put his hand up, and he poked him in the eye. But, like, I just, like, I don't understand how we got to the point now where, like, Tom is being made to be the bad guy here. Like, what did he do wrong? Like, he couldn't see. Now, I, you know, I have a ton of respect for any fighter as an opinion on this, because you

guys do what I can't do. So I always respect the opinion of the fighters. But, like, you know, Chil Sondon was talking about it last night, Anthony Smith was talking about it. I think you know my relationship with Anthony Smith, one of my closest buddies in this industry, had him on this podcast many times. But, like, they're kind of intimating. Like, sometimes you had to fight with one eye. And I'm like, I guess you can. But is it ever a smart idea?

Like, that's like, like, like, that's just like if you get absolutely cracked into balls and you can't walk, you can't function correctly, is it a good idea to go back out there? Like, are we going to tell Kevin Holland it was a good idea to go back out there? And he lost a fight. Lost half his paycheck. Now he has their loss on his record. Like, if Tom Aspenal goes out there, he's a lot. and says, you know what, screw it, I'm going to fight with one eye.

And then the next exchange, he gets absolutely blasted and knocked out. Are we still going to say, great job, Tom? Like, you went back out there like a warrior? Are we going to celebrate him? He gets knocked out two minutes after he says, you know what, I can do it with one eye. What's the narrative then? You know what I mean? Like, oh, he was overrated.

He was never as good as we thought he was, blah, blah. Like, what is he supposed to do? Like, I just don't understand how he becomes the bad guy. And what sucks is he's like, almost. in a lose-lose situation at that point. The only thing that that could have possibly, the only saving grace would have been if he went out with one eye

and ended up beating the shit out of surreal God. You know, like if any other situation happens, like it's a lose for him. They're like, oh, you know, he lost. They're not going to be talking about him getting eye poked and couldn't see and that's why I lost. Like that's, yeah. You know, those guys,

man, I love both those guys. You know, I really, I almost have like hold back saying like my real feelings here because I do actually respect and love both Anthony and jail, especially Anthony. Like I've trained with them and like we're friends. Like when I see Anthony, I really like the guy. I think he's very smart and I think he's a great analyst, by the way. I just think they're way off base here. And the fact that they said it straight away right on the post fight show,

I don't know if they didn't put any thought into it if it was just kind of an immediate reaction because I think there's probably a little bit of recency bias there where they're just like, you know, they're very disappointed the fight didn't happen and they're like, you know, in our heads like, dude, I think we all felt similar. How about the people that paid 80 bucks to watch it? Like, yeah, they're all like,

I wanted to see a goddamn main event. I don't care about your eye. I care about my 80 bucks. McKinsey Dern and the whatever name. They didn't do it for me. I need a real main event. I get that recency bias, but you got to have, you got to look at this realistically, too. Surreal's Ghan's finger went knuckle deep into his fucking eye.

Yeah. In the, in the, like, this is, this is not a complicated thing. I couldn't say it as well as you did. I mean, I thought you said it perfectly, bro. The, the, the guy, the taking a foul getting punished, especially when it's a fucking an eye poke, you know, an I poke or a nutshot, right? I mean, those are the two, you know, the eye poke thing, the UFC should have the gloves fixed.

We're what, 40 years into this now, 30 years into this now? Like, figure it out, guys. Come on. Like, it's not rocket science. Figure it out. Like, what's the problem? But it's not. And they haven't fixed it.

It's going to happen. We can expect it happens in. fights all the time. People get eye poked. Sometimes they come back. Occasionally they don't. It happens. Yeah.

And I think the thing that gets lost, just like I know we're kind of comparing it to groin shots, but it's true. There's no perfect way to figure out how bad an eye poke is. Like we've seen guys get absolutely jabbed in the eye by a finger and then come back and fight and they win. We've seen it happen. We've also seen these little like what look like little scrapes.

And they don't come back. and they ended up being a no contest. I think that was the argument like, oh, come on, Tom, it wasn't that bad. You don't know. You just don't know. And, and I, like, listen, let me be perfectly clear about this.

I am in no way, shape, or form ever trying to compare myself to a fighter. But I remember years ago I was doing jihitsu, and I got my, I got a finger scraped against my eye. And it, I mean, it was just a little, just a pinky, I think is what it was. You kind of scrape my eye. Had to stop the session.

Ended them going to the doctor. I had a scratch corn. He had to wear a patch for like a week. get eye drops and it was just barely like just barely a pinky across my eye didn't he look that bad my eye was bloodshot red you know I couldn't open my eye for like two days I had to go to the doctor they had to like basically force it open put drops in there made me wear an eye patch it was bad like it was nasty and I don't like I don't have videos it was just a training session but like it felt like just like basically a hand running across my eye but it caught me in just the right place

and I was like oh my god this sucks so bad like you can't open your eye you're basically tearing up constantly it it's all And that was to me, like, a very minor thing. Like, it was just a very barely, like a really like a scrape across my eye. Who's to say, like, Tom couldn't see? Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't understand. Like, I know I keep compared to groin shots, but obviously, Matt, you've endured that.

Like, you don't have to full-on field goal kick someone in the balls for it to hurt. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you don't have to, you don't have to literally jab your finger into someone's eye for it to hurt. Like, you can barely touch the eye. and in just the wrong spot, the wrong moment, a fingernail, whatever it is, you're blinded. And I don't understand the idea

that we're supposed to just be like, sometimes you got to fight with one eye. In what world are you supposed to? Like, no one should be advocating for that. Absolutely. I mean, this is a, like I said, it's a competition. It's meant to be a fair fight.

Like there's not meant to be eye gauges. Like you're not, that's why they have that rule. in place. Is it because you're not supposed to gouge each other as eyes? If that rule wasn't in place, we'd be gout, that would be, I've always thought about this, if there was actually no rules, right? The entire strategy would be to get to their eyes or their nuts. Right? That would, that would literally be a dick kicking contest and eye poking contest. Right? That's how you incapacitate someone faster than anything else. So it's like, you know, what?

We are in a sport now, not just a street fight. It is an actual sport. And there are rules. When the guy, when one guy breaks the rules, the other guy should not deal with the punishment for that. And it shouldn't be a no contest. It should be a disqualification. Yeah, I don't disagree. Listen, I'm not, you know, I understand it was an accident.

But I say this all the time. We talk about point deductions and things like this, which, by the way, a referee last night, Rich Mitchell, like right away pulled the trigger on a couple of fouls and, like, deducted points. I was like, my God, thank you, finally. Like somebody grabbed the fence and they, like, immediately took a point away. I was like, oh, my God, finally. I don't think Searle Gond did it on purpose.

I don't think he went out there and I'm going to eye poke Tom Aspinall, but I always compare it to basketball. Like, a guy goes for a ball, he hits the other guy. They still call a foul. Maybe he didn't mean to actually hit the arm or hit the leg or knock the guy over or or football, like when a defensive player just runs into the quarterback and they call rough in the passer and you just like maybe got shoved into him. Of course you didn't mean to do it. Doesn't mean they're not going to call the penalty.

Doesn't mean they're going to be like, oh, you're good. You're fine. Like, don't worry about it. Well, you're, you're, our bad, don't worry about it. Every other sport, there are penalties. And I guarantee you, yes, there are penalties where guys mean to do it. But there are definitely penalties where guys do it accidentally or they're just in the heat of the moment.

I mean, look at football. I mean, there's penalties that are clear accidents all the time, right? You know, these like rough in the pastor or, you know, all the, I mean, they have, I don't know, I guess there's an argument that they get kind of silly with. I'm not a close football follower, but I think they get, they go a little bit overboard with it at times, right? But like you said, it's still a penalty no matter what. You have to deal with the consequences of, you know, making it a close call.

Yeah. So I'm not like, I'm not even going to say or advocate that like Searle should have been dequeed, although I think you make a valid point on that. Like, it's a foul. The fight end it with a foul. But, okay, let's just leave it at no contest. I'll let it go at that, you know, this time. Like, I'm fine with him not making a DQ.

But again, like if you want to set a standard, you know, which is what rules are meant for, right, to have standards, then you follow that standard and you make it a DQ. And that doesn't mean that he shouldn't get another rematch. Like, I mean, I think it'd be fair to give him another rematch. But, yeah, you should get a DQ here. Yeah. But in that case, Lee, I just, I hate the. idea. Like I remember, like, if you remember going back to when Al Jermaine had that illegal knee

have with Peter Yon, like the narrative on Al Jermaine Sterling changed entirely. Like, people were sending out things like, you're an actor. Remember Henry Sizzito said I'm accepting the Oscar for Al Jermaine? Like, everyone was right. And I think to this day, Al Jermaine went

from, you know, kind of a fan favorite, you know, kind of like, just personality to where he's like kind of become vilified. Like, to this day, I don't think he's ever outlived at where people were like, oh yeah, but you ducked out of that fight with Peter Yan. Bilal Muhammad didn't live it down for years after that Leon Edwards fight. Like, everyone would bring that up. When Leon won the belt and Bilal's like, I'm going to get back to Leon,

they're like, oh, dude, you already get your ass kicked and you quit in the fight with Leon. Remember that? Like, that was just the whole narrative. He had to go out there and fight Leon a second time and beat him for everyone to be like, all right, well, I guess you were that good. But like, up until then, there was like, yeah, but you had your chance and you blew it with an eye poke. You could have continued. the narrative on Tom Aspinall might change out of this right or wrong

like it could like now like there's going to be people who are going to say A you were losing because that round was going towards zero gun wasn't a blowout by the way it wouldn't like he knocked him down four times like you know he I think I think he was winning the round but one just like the Leon Edwards belal Muhammad fight one round does not make a fight like bala mahaar marabd wallis really lost a round to Corey sanhagan and what happened he went out there and torched him the next four like come on now like one round does not mean the fight but I feel like we're now going to live in this era. We're like Tom Aspinall went from like the biggest fan favorite

because everyone's kind of like on Tom's side against the whole John Jones thing. Yeah. This one thing might change the perception to him. Right or wrong, people are going to have their perception change to Tom Aspital because of the way this played out. Yeah, I hope not.

I hope he posts like whatever, I don't know, MRI x-ray, whatever they do for eyeballs. You know, just, you know, what the diagnosis is, you know. I haven't heard anything yet I mean I haven't been you know following Twitter and stuff real close today but you know I think it'd be a valid thing for him to post

I look I'm fucking hurt you know like if he you know assuming that he actually is and look he's the only person that knows but to jump to the assumption that he's quitting I've you know I'm I'm not on that train

and I don't respect that um you get Tom's the only one who truly knows. That's all there is to it. But there's, we have no, like, Tom's never showed any reason for us to think that he's a quitter. He's a fucking heavyweight champion of the world. Like, most people don't become a champion being quitters.

So, you know, I'm going to start with the assumption that he's not a quitter and that he wanted to fight and, you know, would be willing to die in there and all that great stuff. and then, you know, until he proves me wrong. And that certainly is not proving me, proven, proven that point wrong. 100%. Can I ask Matt, though, like, if there is one other narrative we're going to come out away from this fight, is that now we, I know weirdly this, I certainly am not, like, saying this because of the iPogue, but, like, we are going to get a rematch. Dana White's already said, like, they're going to book it. Once we know Tom Salty and everything.

Be honest, though. And I'm just, I'm being honest. They're like, I'm more intrigued now because the first round, even though it was like four minutes of action, it looked like we were going to see a second round. Tom Aspinall has only been to a second round once in the UFC, and that was Andre Arlowski, a fight he won in the second round. I was like, wow, Cyril looked good. Like, he looked really, really good. Elusive. He was circling away.

He was popping Tom. He had a good jab working, busted his nose. I was like, all right, this is going to be interesting. I'm a thousand times more interested in the rematch now because, like, I'm still at Tom Aspinall believer, by the way. jumping off that train and saying, I'm just abandoning him as a good fighter, not at all. But Cyril Gahn showed me something. Even in four minutes of fighting, he showed me something. Now, maybe the rematch comes out and Tom just absolutely obliterates him in 48 seconds.

We don't know. But based on what I saw in that first round, I'm like, all right. Like, I'm kind of intrigued by the rematch now. Yeah, why not? I mean, I wasn't too far off from what I was expecting. I just didn't expect Tom to stand with him as long as he did. I think that's kind of what made it intriguing, right? because Tom

look like, again, it looked like his game plan was to stand with him. I'm not sure if that's the best game plan. I mean, not sure if he'll stick with that same game plan. And,

you know, and again, maybe that wasn't his gameplay. Maybe it was just, you know, for one round, do that or something. But if it was,

you know, it's hard to believe he's going to stick with that in the second fight, right? Because, you know, surreal was getting the better of them.

Like, surreal was sharp, looked good. but I guess when it comes down to a second fight, you got to think that Tom's going to be working for that takedown extra hard at this point, right? Because, I mean, we know, which again, it kind of surprised me they didn't because, like, we know that that's Surreal's weakness, right? I think Surreal knows his weakness, right?

Everybody does. And it just surprised me because I, you know, what I like about it, too, though, is Tom clearly wasn't trying to like live up to John Jones standard. Right? It didn't appear that way, right? It didn't appear that he's like, oh, I've got to get him out of here right away. Or I have to do this. I have to do that.

It's like it felt like that was just naturally what he wanted to do. Yeah. No, I agree. And I think that's a good point. We talked about that. Like we were totally the worst case scenario for Tom Aspinall was to like lose, of course. That was the worst case scenario. But then also like if it ended up being a battle or whatever, the perception changed just because the way

John Jones tore through Cyril Gaon. Now, I'm not going to change my opinion now that it's after the fact because I pick Tom Aspinall to win, and I'll probably pick him to win again in the rematch. But I do want to say this out, I just want to throw this out there, Matt. I know you, we've all been on this train, you and I have for a while now, but like we got to give some flowers to John Jones. Like, come on now. Like to go through Cyril gone, like Francis didn't do that. Francis didn't five rounds and basically won a 48-47 decision. Volkov, I thought, beat him, but it was a close fight, like it wasn't a great fight. I thought Volkov won, but it wasn't like a blowout, didn't knock him out. John Jones is the only guy to go out there and torch Cyril Gaon in two

minutes. So I'm just saying, give him a little flowers to John Jones. He's the only guy who actually did that because I think we all got, because you were right. Like you've said forever, like I think Tom Aspenol is the toughest possible matchup for John Jones, size wise, power wise, heavyweight, and you're absolutely right. I agree with you. But watching that fight last, I'm like, A, I think we underrated Cyril Gaon. I fully admit I was guilty of that. And B, maybe we just like didn't give john jones enough credit for how freaking good that guy is well fair point but you know styles make matches right i mean that's all there is to it like i i mean if you put bow nickel against i don't know mike tyson like yeah he might finish him in

two minutes if you put mike tyson against surreal gone like you know mike might beat him i don't know i mean stupid example but you it's like it doesn't say much to me at all. You know, and I think it seemed like to me like Tom at least wasn't I didn't hear any talk this week or anything that was alluding to

him letting it affect him in any way either. Yeah. Which I like. It shouldn't. I don't think so. But I will say like I said I'm honestly though I am more intrigued by the rematch now. Like I certainly don't wish the fight ended that way. I'm certainly absolutely not accusing Tom Aspenal doing anything wrong. But I actually, if I'm being honest, I have more interested in the rematch now because I thought last night, my opinion

was Tom Aspinall was going to win pretty handily. I didn't know it was going to be a second round knockout, a third round finish, whatever. I thought he was going to win pretty handily. And then we're going to fall into the conundrum of like, who the hell was he fight now? Because Volkov won in a very not great fight with Almeida. I'm glad the judges gave it to him because Almeida did nothing offensively. But like, and Tom topped Tom tapped Volkov in the first round when they met a couple years ago. It wasn't like it was like 10 years ago. It was like two years ago he did it. So like how much interest are we going to have in that? Sure, they can do it. But like, you know, how, man, I can't wait to see that match up. And at that point, we're like, is Alice Perey are going

to come up? Like, what options does Tom Aspinall have? Weirdly, the way this played out, at least we get one more fight and we're actually more interested in it now. We're actually interested in the Cyril Gaon Tom Aspinall fight now. Yeah, maybe it was all a conspiracy and they just set this up to work out this way. So we actually want to watch that fight. But, you know, I don't know. It's almost, it's just so awkward how it worked out, man. But, you know, if you don't mind, we talk about the rest of the card, too, you know, because I missed the Umar fight. And I did want to see that. And I'd be, I'm curious that I didn't even get to read. Because, you know, by the time I jumped in, it was a main event. And, you know, Twitter is full of the main event. And, you know, so I'm kind of curious as to how that fight looked and how Umar looked. Is he going to get a title shot again? I thought Umar looked great, but honestly, coming out of it, I was, I was just as impressed by Mario Batista. Like, he gave him a fight. It was a battle.

Like, nothing came easy to Omar. Like, Umar took him down repeatedly, couldn't really hold him down. He had a couple moments where he was on his back. He had the body triangle on him, but Mario was never in really any kind of trouble. And the second round, Mario blast him with a knee and dropped Umar briefly. And Umar got right back up to his credit. Like, I think, I think the replay showed it didn't hit as flush as we thought it did. but he got cracked and he went down for a second and got right back up.

I think Um, I think um, I think um, it's one of those situations where like a loss is never good, but Mario Batista deserves credit for going out there and being game as hell man. He gave him everything he can handle over three rounds. And I think, I think the tough part for Umar is because it was a tougher fight than maybe people expected. Um, I think he's going to have to do one more before he gets a title shot. Don't get me wrong. They gave him a title shot. I don't think it'll be the worst thing in the world.

But like, to me, knowing that he's going to be the worst thing in the world, but like to me, knowing that Peter Yon and Marab are fighting in December. If I'm Umar, knowing that he's going to be out for Ramadan next year, which I think is March. So like, if you can stay healthy, fight January and February. Get one more in, whoever that's against.

I don't know if it's, I don't know who the name would be depending on who's available. You know, like I said, maybe it's O'Malley, maybe it's Song Yadong, maybe it's somebody else. He already has a winner of Corey Sandhagan, so you probably don't do that again. But like somebody of that, you know, someone in that range, fight January,

February, get a win, and then you get a win. and then you get Marab maybe in a rematch like summertime into summer or something like that, assuming Mara Bues Peter Yan, but great, I don't you look great. I thought Mario looked great, but I think Umar needs one more. I wouldn't give him a title shot off that. I would love to see an Umar O'Malley fight. That would be really true. I think that would be an amazing fight.

Yeah, I think that's, I think that would make, and obviously you got the Paramount deal kicking off next year, January. You're going to build a big card. I mean, obviously we're hearing rumors about Ilya and Patty or Ilya and Gage or whatever. That's going to end up being. But you put a non-title, like, Umar and O'Malley on there? That's a big deal. So, like, I think, I think, and I also because of Ramadan, like, he's going to sit

out for a month for Ramadan and fighters typically don't compete right after that. So, like, get a fight January, February, get you another win, and then you get your title, assuming you win, you get the title rematch in the summer or something like that. So if I'm Umar, I stay active. I don't sit on the sidelines. Because otherwise, you may sit out for most of half of 20206 just waiting to see if you get a title shot. I don't think you should do that.

Yeah, and you don't know what's going to happen in the means. time either we've seen this play out enough times right sitting is most of the time not the right you got to stay out there stay active stay relevant and keeping people's faces man yeah let me ask you this matt kind of going back to the to the tom aspinall thing with aspiral with aspiral with aspinall and gone ending in a no contest and Dana white already saying like we're going to do the rematch it just depends on timing and like how bad tom's eyes fucked up and all this kind of things uh and immediately afterwards john jones put out his new picture.

Did you see that? The duck with the eye patch over it? Oh, yeah, yeah. And then, and then he immediately called for Alex Prairie. He said, you know, I love your attitude, whatever it is, and I think we should do it at the White House. I don't know. Like, I'm curious.

Here's me playing conspiracy theory. Is there any part of things that Tom had gone out there and just laid waste of Cyril gone that John would have been like, let's do it, Tom? Like, let's finally do this in the White House? Or because, like, in the aftermath of that knowing there's going to be no time when he's like, let's go, Alex. Like, he didn't say anything beforehand. He waited until after the fight.

and he called for the Alex Pereira fight. Am I thinking too much into this? Is there any small chance? He was going to be like, all right, Tom, you won. Let's go. Look, I have no idea what John was sticking in his head. But it's hard to believe that he's not happy that this happened and he gets to fight Alex Pereira. Right?

I mean, assuming he gets to fight Alex Pereira. I mean, what better case scenario could it be for John, right? Like, he can sit back and, I mean, I mean, he has his leg. he doesn't need all this anyway, right? He could be tired today, walk away, and never talk about the sport again, and he's still the fucking greatest ever. So great, you know,

but if he still wants to be involved in all the talks and the relevancy and all this and potentially fight again, I mean, this just worked out perfect for John Jones, right? Now he can just say, look, I want Alex Pereira. It is a bigger fight. Again, we talked about this. You know, I think in terms of, you know,

people getting interested, I think it's a gigantic fight, probably the biggest fight out there to make it in the current moment of the UFC. So, I mean, what better situation for John Jones? So, Hell, yeah, he's going to jump on that right away, you know? Again, I don't know what it was going on in the back of his head, how closely he was watching Tom, you know, if he's studying him a little bit or anything like that.

Surely at least to some extent, but looking for weaknesses, chinks in the armor. Yeah. But this is, I mean, the cards just lined up for John as well as he could possibly ask him to. Yeah, I mean, outside of time losing, which would have obviously killed any hope of that fight anyway. Yeah. Outside that, not like, and to their credit, like, they need to run it back. Cyril Gond looked really. It wasn't like Cyril Gond was getting blown out of the water and he poked him to stop the fight.

He was winning the first round. So you got to run it back. You got to do the rematch. And, yeah, it couldn't have worked out any better for John Jones because, like, the narrative, you and I talked about this after Alex won. We're like, yeah, you can fight Alex, but Tom's the fight he needs to do. Well, now he doesn't need to do it. Tom needs to fight Cyril Gan again. And John has a clear open path to Alex Bren.

I know, I think Joe Rogan said, lost. I guess kind of depending on the timing, though, right? Because, I mean, LaGone and Aspinall could fight in a month, potentially, right? They won't. They won't. They won't. They're not going to. Probably won't, but I'm just saying, you know. They already got the next two pay reviews lined up. Like, it would be January.

It would be the earliest. I don't think they're going to do it then. I think it's probably going to be like February, March will be my guess. That's just my guess. Well, let's say February or January. I mean, they can still fight again in July and fight John Jones. Like that card probably won't be announced until around that time. Well, I mean, I know Dana has said they want to start matchmaking for the White House in February.

They want to get locked in so they can start promoting it and stuff. Yeah. And I just don't think they're going to, even though Dana said, like, we're going to rebook Asphinal and gone as soon as possible, they already have things planned out. They already got, obviously, November, December, done. That's not going to happen. January, I guess it's possible. Maybe they can't get Ili and Patty.

Maybe they do the heavyweight fight on the first Paramount card. But I'm guessing it's going to be February, March, and they want a matchmaker start promoting the February. They want to start promoting in February March for the White House card. And let's be honest, like, Connor coming back if he actually does, you know, obviously that's a big deal. But John Jones, Alex Pereer, I mean, like it or not, I've said this going back like two years ago when they first started like hinting at it.

and I know Joe Rogan said this recently. It's the biggest fight, maybe the biggest fight in UFC history. It might be. I mean, because Alex is a legit star and John Jones is the greatest of all time. You're right. You've said it from day one. It is stylistically a mismatch for Alex Perey. Like that is the worst possible matchup for Alex Pereira.

But the reality is so is Kabibna Makaedov and Connor McGregor. Like, stylistically, Camboeem de Mbinovatov is the worst style for Connor McGregor. And the way that fight played out pretty much proved it. But we still got excited. We still got excited to watch Kabib and Connor, fight weeks, stare downs, all the nasty, bad blood between them. It was their biggest selling pay-per-view in UFC history, and odds-wise, Kabeb should have been favored to win heavily,

and he was, and he did. But like it or not, Alex Prairie John Jones is a monster, monster fight. And, like, that's the one time where I would say, Connor, buddy, you're going to have to play a second fiddle here. You're going to play a co-main event to John Jones, Alice Pereau. Sorry. I don't think it's quite the same as Khabib Khanor. It's a great analogy, by the way, but there is some differences.

Like, there's going to, I think anybody who really knows M.A. was like, Khabib, you know what I mean? He's going to beat him. Like, yeah, Connor has a chance, like, because it's M.MA, blah, blah, blah. But there's going to be a narrative of, you know, John Jones is old. Alex just has to catch him with that one, right? All these narratives are going to start popping up. Like, oh, we just haven't seen how good Alex is at wrestling yet.

I don't know. What kind of silly stuff? I mean, there are people convinced that Connor was going to be Floyd Mayweather. When a fight gets like to a certain size and then you start getting opinions from the casual, then more casual, and then the non-casual. and it all starts trickling over. You know, I think a lot of people, even the more hardcore fans, we start questioning things a little bit.

I like, I never thought of it that way, you know? Like, yeah, you know, Connor could land a spinning kick on Floyd Mayweather, unsuspectingly. Or, you know, Rhonda could knock out Floyd Mayweather, I guess. Like, maybe she could just smoke enough meth or, you know, like, you know, these narratives, like kind of trickle in. and that would happen with Pereira and John Jones. And I don't think the line would even be as big as it should be.

And I'll probably put some money on John Jones, even though it's a gigantic line and it's a terrible, you know, I hate betting the favorite when it's a big line like that. But like it's probably going to be a close enough line that it would be worth putting money on them. Yeah, I mean, and listen, I mean, I'm not, you know, stylistically isn't an awful matcher for Alex Perez. Sure it is.

But we don't know. I mean, Alex is, like I said, look what he did. See you already doing it. No, no, no, but I'm saying, like, Alex has legit, like, he has, like, you could argue probably the best striking in mixed martial arts. Like, right now, it's hard to argue with that when you talk about his complete game, from his cupcakes to his punching power. Like, I could argue it, but okay.

But I'm saying, like, in terms, like, the full package. Like, you know what I mean? Like, the whole, like, the whole package of everything. But, like, I just think that, like, yeah, I'm going to pick, John Jones to win that fight every day of the week and twice on Sunday 100%. But you're right. Like that we talk ourselves into things. We talk ourselves into it.

We're like, well, he could catch it. Alex has done great enough things that there's a narrative to be built. Yeah. That's what it needs, right? It needs that ability to have a narrative so that people can start putting that together. Which, you know, Alex has done to his credit, right? He's the one that's created that narrative, right? knocking these people out and, you know, putting on great performances last fight, you know.

So, but, dude, John Jones coming in for a payday. He's going to shoot. He's going to look like surreal gone again. Yeah. But at this point, the way that the, the way that the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, and you're right. speak with and you're right like aspinall and gone could technically fight early next year and still get cleared to fight by june but let's be honest come on now like they're they're setting the stage is now clear like now you can't say now you can't say aspirinol destroyed zero gone

why aren't you fighting at tom asplow well tom as well tom is technically not available right now don't think for a second the UFC might not do john jones a favor be like ah tom we're going to book you in april too close to sure but and just being totally like i know joe and say, like, it's the biggest fight the U.S. you could book. It is. It's bigger than Connor Chandler. Like it or not, like John Jones top, John Jones, Alex Pereira is a monster fight.

And if I'm booking the White House card, that is the biggest and best fight that you can book. Because with Connor, Connor, you're dealing with five years off. Chandler's off like three losses in a row. Like, is it still going to get some buzz to this Connor? Of course it's going to get buzzed to this Connor. Connor's, Connor. You can't deny. The guy still draws.

He absolutely does. But the intrigue is going to be more about, like, man, what is he going to look like after five years. What is this like? Alex Pereira is peak right now. He just knocked out Magamette and Goliath in like two minutes. Just went out there and obliterated a guy he lost to. And I know the narrative is like he wasn't at 100 percent. No one's at 100 percent. But he went out there and exacted his revenge in completely dominant fashion. John Jones is the greatest of all time. Like the path is clear now. Like the UFC, in my opinion, the UFC would be crazy not to book that fight because like that's one that not only is it huge, but I'm actually really

interested. I don't know how much interest I really have in Connor and Chandler. Like, I think Chandler's still a dog, but like, I don't know what we're going to get out of Connor at this point in 2026. Like, what are we expecting? I have a 38-year-old guy's been off for five years. Like, what are we hoping for? But Pereira Jones, that

is a fight. Like, that is a really, really fun fight. All right, so hypothetically, let's say you're the UFC, and you got Conner and Jones, Pereira, Raring to go. Everything's set. You got the you got the contract signed,

you're saying they put out of Pereira and Jones as main event and Connor Chandler as co-main. 100%. 100%. Not even close. Not even a debate. Not even a debate. Oh, damn. I would debate that.

You would. You would put Connor and Chandler ahead of Jones for Pereira? If I'm the UFC, I'm not sure what. I would have to really think about it. But do I think the UFC will do that? Yes. You think they would put Conner Chandler over Jones Perez. Yes, because I still think Conner's mainstream value, like all the hardcore five fans that want to see Pereira Jones. And we'll buy the card to see it. We'll buy the card anyway, right? We're already sold, right? Everybody that knows who those guys are. But when you're

talking about crossing over, you know, to get grandma to watch it, right? Or, or, you know, your, your neighbor, Karen, next door, you know, you want, you want her to come over to the party to watch. You have to put Connor. You have to. I mean, you're not wrong in the way you're thinking because, like, you know, Connor is Connor. But, like, to me, it's like, you've got to be crazy to actually put Connor ahead of John Jones-Ales-Sah prayer. And I, and I totally, I'm not arguing with where you're coming from, but here's the thing. If you are the UFC trying to sell, get as many eyeballs as possible, Connor at any point in his life brings more eyeballs.

I mean, 20 years from now, Connor still brings more eyeballs than probably anybody else. They probably won't have another star like him in 20 years. So again, you're not talking about selling to the person that's already going to buy it. They'll buy it because Jones and Pereira co-made event, and they'll be talking about that just as much. You're talking about selling to your local jeweler who wasn't going to watch the fight, but now everybody that comes into his jewelry shop is talking about Connor McGregor fighting Michael Chandler this weekend. Those people would not be talking about John Jones, Alex Pereira, and the jeweler would not recognize the name of John Jones.

and Alex Pereira, but when he hears Connor McGregor, he said, oh, the guy in Roadhouse or, you know, like the crossover is so much stronger with him, like he gets the main event. You might not be wrong. I don't agree with it, but you might not be wrong. I mean, I don't, look, if I'm running the UFC, I don't, I don't even talk to either one of them, really? I'm like, I'm like, John, you're fighting Tom Espinall and, and Connor, you're in the front row.

right you're sitting with me and we're going to pump you up for being there but we're going to put some real fighters in there that aren't out partying all day but the UFC's entertainment yeah right this is not a this is you know it's WWE on steroids right it's not you know you got to forget all that board they want the most people watching the putting their eyeballs on as possible and I believe Connor does that better than anybody has ever done it and probably will ever do it. If you're the UFC and you're looking at this historic White House card first and probably only, who knows?

I mean, obviously we don't know what's got to be the future, but let's just say first and only card. And we've been theorizing for months, like what would headline, right? And we're going to continue to theorize until they actually announce it. And we talk about you, you know, Conner, so I'm 100% coming back. I'm dedicated. I'm coming back. I'm ready to go.

John Jones has been called you retired two weeks later. like, I'm back, I want to fight in the White House card. Like, sometimes you look at, like, the UFC, like, when things fall in their lap, and you're just like, man, like, do these guys ever lose? And you could argue, like, last night was a loss because Tom Aspinall, the heavyweight champion ended up in a no contest over an eye poke, and people, one of the last times people are going to spend $80 on the UFC car before they go to free TV. They lost their money.

That being said, what a world to live in that they're looking at well? Do we want John Jones, Alex Pereira's a main event? Or Conmerger's comeback is the main event? Hmm, what a difficult war we living. Probably going to come down to who Dana actually thinks is going to show up more likely. Yeah. Right? Because, I mean, both these guys don't need this shit, really.

You know what I mean? And neither one of them are hungry competitors, hungry for titles or, you know, they're not chasing big things. Like, they're fighting to fight on the White House car, make money. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I think if you're. If you're actually in Dana's shoes, you know, you put your, you put your money where the, the more likely bet is that the guy is going to show up on fight night.

And Dana, for some reason, seems to have a lot of faith that Connor would show up. Like, I'm not saying he wouldn't. I'm just saying, like, he seems to have a lot of faith. So I don't think you're wrong in your assessment. Me personally, though, I think it's insane to headline a car. Like, you're not wrong. You're absolutely right when it comes like Star Power, crossover appeal, larger, bigger audience. Connor's still that dude.

Absolutely. Just like we were kind of half-joking, kind of half-talking about the old Rhonda Rousey. Like, say I like it or not, Ronda Rousey is still a massive, massive name. Just because you got all the crossover appeal and doing all the movies and of course more to WWE. Like, Rhonda is still a big name. If she comes back, it's a big deal. And you're not wrong, but I'm like, man. Like, could you imagine if you're John Jones and Alex Perey, the greatest of all time versus

one of the number one of the number one pound for pound guys, like number three or four, whatever he is in the world right now? And you're like, yeah, but we're going to play. Yeah, but at the same time, like, You know, in any other universe, if I'm John Jones, I'm like, fuck that. I'm not co-main eventing to this, but it's the White House card. And everyone wants to be on the White House card. And, like, they're going to be fight.

I guarantee you, there are going to be fighters who are normally, like, main card, legitimate top 10 draws, like not top 10 ranking. I'm talking, talk to him rankings, like, ranked fighters who are like, I'll be the opening pre-lim if you put me on the White House card because they want to be part of a historic event. Just like everyone for the longest time, I've got to be on UFC 300. I want to be on UFC 300. It's an historic event. I want to be on there.

And there were, there were fights in the prelims. Like, no one would ever be on the prelims of that card in any other universe. They stacked it, you know, incredibly deep. There are going to be fighters who are going to be like, I don't care, put me on there. So that might be the one way where you can convince John Jones. Like, John, you're fighting Alex Pereira, but you're going to play second fiddle, sort of to Connor, because he's going to be the main event. And that might be the one time when John's like, all right, because I'm going to be in the White House card. Right, right. That's exactly right.

Yeah, I mean, I just, I guess I also think about the, like the media tour, right? I mean, it's going to be a crazy media tour if you put John and Pereira. I mean, they might have some good moments, but. And realistically, it's like we would all watch for the amazing fights that we know will be stacking the car, the prelims and the main car to be all. all amazing. And you know when if it's Connor and Chandler and they actually come out

this has been building for like five years them to come out. It's a fucking WW show now. Yeah. And if you're the UFC that's probably what you want. Right? Like you're at the White House. It's historic. You want

you know, Hulk Hogan and the Ultimate Warrior as your main event, right? Yeah. John Jones Alps prayer is. a better fight bar none and the stairdown the stair downs are going to be awesome too

like seeing John Jones staredown Oxpro with that intense stairdown Alexes like that's great but you're right the press conferences Connor's going to be Connor like that's going to sell it Connor's going to be he's going to be calling up

he's going to be pumping up Trump and he's going to be all about you know the flash and the flare and the drama and lastly well also Trump is a big fan of Chandler too if I understand But lastly, I don't think Connor accepts even a White House card as co-main.

You don't think so. I mean, for one, I don't, I'm not, I'm maybe 30%, maybe 20%, believing he'll actually even show up, he'll actually even fight at the White House to begin with. But if it's co-in-made event, it goes to zero. Connor would not accept co-made event by any stretch of the imagination. I do not believe for one second. Well, the thing that makes it really interesting about that is because, like, there's no titles. So there's no precedent.

Like, it's not like you're putting Connor ahead of the heavyweight title, the light heavyweight title. Like, there's not even that. Like, you're doing it based on personal preference at that point. Because when it's title fights, we know how they do it. You know what I mean? They always put the heavier weight in the fight. But even that, like, Connor's gone against that. They made Connor a main event over a heavier weight class before.

DeCard you were on when you fought Tim Means. They made Connor Chadad-Mendez, the main event over Robert. Bobby Lawler and Roy McDonald's. So that precedent has been said. But in this case, they only have that because there's no titles. Like, this is this. But in reality, isn't that kind of crazy to think, too, that like, there's a White House card and, you know, a historic card. And we're talking about two co-main main event with no titles.

Like, this is what the UFC's become. That's the dream scenario in a way, though, because you need title fights to sell other cards. if you could sell the White House card with two non-title fights, and let's be honest, John Jones, Alex Pereira is bigger than Tom Aspinall-Serogne. It's just a much bigger fight. For sure. Connor McGregor and Michael Chandler is a bigger fight than, I don't know.

I don't know if I'd say, I mean, I think I think I'llie and Patty's going to be a pretty big fight when they do, but, like, even that, as big of a star as Ilya's gotten, he's not Connor. You know what I mean? He's not to that level yet. So, like, imagine if you can headline the first and maybe only ever UFC White House.

card with two non-title fights. You got the greatest of all time, the biggest promoter of all time, and that's your one-two punch. And if I'm John Jones, like, I, like, you're right. Like, I don't think John Jones would turn down the White House card if he's being made co-main, whereas you're right. Connor might be like, ah, I'm good. I'm just going to go promote BKFC some more and I'm not going to fight.

You might be right. You might be right in that. Like, Con, honestly, I'm, like, hopefully this doesn't become the whole podcast. is about, but like, I'm not convinced Conner would fight even even main event with the you know, the UFC paying as much as they will. And we've talked

about this ad nauseum, you know, like it doesn't make sense for him, but for him to be co-main, I don't think there's any possible way you get him in that situation. It'll be interesting. We're going to fight, but listen, the path is clear now because like it, like it or not, we're going to get Aspernel gone rematch.

And they need to do that. When they need, like, you can't not run that back, especially with the way that fight was both. Yeah, you got to do that. But like, I mean, but, well, I mean, great point. I mean, the, the UFC has had the path cleared now for, uh, nothing but great options, right? Like, there's, they don't really have any bad options on the table now for this

White House card. Yeah, 100%. And we are, you know, what's crazy is we're only like three weeks out from the next big pay-per-view and we got obviously Islam fighting Jack Del and Madelina. That's a great fight. Obviously, Valenzhena Chirchenko, fighting Wei Lee. Um, yeah, so we're, we're chucking along, man. that November card is stacked.

It's a good card. Yeah, almost top to bottom. Yeah, I looked at that card earlier. And I was like, wow, there's a lot of really good fights on here. The main event, I mean, I think it's one of the most interesting fights of the year, for sure. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's super interesting because, like, how Jack fought Bilal and beat Bilal. And have you seen Islam, man? That dude looks jacked up.

Like, he is embracing welterweight life right now. yeah yeah which is scary right like he is a big guy um but man yeah jack has looked so tremendous it's like when when islam first decided you first heard about this i was like man that's a good matchup for islam like that's that's this is a good fight but man the closer it gets i'm like damn like i could see jack pulling this off man you're doing that you're doing the Alex John thing like I I could see it happen tonight. I could see it happen. Yeah, it happens.

You know, I mean, that's his sport, right? It's too wild. It's not unpredictable. But, man, Jackson just looks so good. And it's like, man. You always wonder how a guy is going to look going up and weight, you know what I mean? Because, like, there's a million examples of it working and there's a million examples of it. Like, like, I know Luke Rockhold.

Luke Rockhold is a big dude. He is not a small dude, but he went up to light heavy way and got his jaw broken by Jan Bolhoeven. It's like some, you know what I mean? Like, not everyone. Then you look at Robert Whitaker. He actually looks like he should be a welterway, but he goes up and he wrecks the middleweight middleweight division

becomes a couple-time champion. He's an elite middleway for many, many years. You just don't know. Like, you can't predict it. Now, talent-wise, I think Islam Makachev is one of the most talented fighters we've ever seen. But how is he going to do it welter? I don't know. And Jack's a big dude, man.

Jack is not a small welterer. Like, he towered over Bilal. Bilau and Islam are kind of like equal size. Jack's a big dude. Like, I'm kind of curious. Like, you know, if Islam goes out there, misses his first couple of takedowns, you know, like, well, you know, it starts getting really interesting. But Islam's so talented, man.

Like, he's just, he's separated himself in so many ways in terms of, like, he goes out there and just dominates people. And if he can do that to Jack Delamatta, Lano, holy crap, man, that guy's, like, he's getting into that, like, all-time status. But I don't think it's an easy, I don't think it's an easy fight by any stretch and imagination. I think Jack's a dog. Jack is a dog, and he is clean. And he's got definitely, and between him and Ilius, two of the cleanest boxers in the sport.

And Jack is just smooth, man. And I haven't picked him to win a lot of the fights that he's won, but he keeps getting it done and just looking better every time, man. Fights smart. And, yeah, I mean, boy, like, just what an interesting match. But we've seen the weakness. I don't know if we call weakness, right? but like Volcanovsky and Islam, right? Like, like, Vogue showed, like, you can grapple with him.

Like, he's not invincible there. And Jack is about double Vogue size, right? Yeah. And does a lot. It feels similar to me, like, to that Volk fight. You know what I mean? And I don't know if Islam can work through it the way he did with the Volk fight. Like, he's got another 30 pounds he's going to be dealing with here.

And let's not forget when Jack fought Gilbert Burry. he got taken out a bunch, but Gilbert couldn't, like, get him in anything. And Gilbert is an incredibly skilled grabblery, one of the best Jitsu guys ever. And then third round, Jack, you know,

Gilbert's kind of gasoline because he had to keep working for those takedowns, and Jack just blasted him and knocked him out that third round. So I don't know, man. Like, I don't think it's as far as rich, far of a reach for saying, like, Jack pulls this off.

Like, I, we'll obviously talk more about his fight gets closer, but, man, I love that fight. Like, that is now my favorite. I know there's not a lot of fights left this year, but like that is by far my favorite fight list this year is Jack and Islam. Same. I'm really interested in up the line on this one. You happen to know what that?

Islam's favorite, but I don't think it's like insane. I don't think it's like a five to one favorite and crazy. He's favorite to win. Islam's favorite to win. It's probably like a minus 100 or something or 200 maybe. Probably like minus 200, I would guess. I'd have to look it up.

But yeah, he's favored, but I don't think it's going to be insane. Because you just, any time you have a guy going to wait, you just don't know what I mean? Like remember really when Connor's biggest Connor was when he went up. there were still people being like, man, Eddie hits hard, Eddie's a good wrestler. Like, now, obviously the fight didn't play out that way. Connery is absolutely decimated him. But anytime a guy changes weight classes like that, you got to question a little bit because you just don't know.

We have a lot of evidence of Islam as a lightweight. We have zero evidence as Islam as a welterweight. And I've stood next to you. You are a legit big welterweight. I've stood next to Khab Nirmagameh, who's a big dude. But like, if they put you and Kibibib next to each other, it would look like a big weight difference. Like you are over six foot tall. Khabibib is not.

You know what I mean? Like just size-wise, you see that. So I don't know, man. Like, I think it's really intriguing. And Jack's a big dude, too. Jack's not a small welterweight. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

Like, Jack is big for welterweight too. And carries it well, too. You know, sometimes there's like, you know, guys that are big for their size for their weight, but they don't really carry it as well, you know. Jack is built for that weight 100%. So, boy, yeah, I'm really, really stoked about that one. I mean, there's not to me fights we're talking about three weeks out and, you know,

starting to get a little bit of depth into it, right? Because we're like, this is a fight to watch here. I get kind of similar vibes to when Izzy went up to 205 and he fought Jan Bolshevich and everyone's like, oh, Izzy's going to be a two-division champ. Guess what? Yombovovich was like, no, you're not. You're not going to just be. And so, like, I get a little vibe everywhere.

Everyone's kind of looking best Jack and Jack's not a wrestler, blah, blah, blah. Don't count him out, man. He's a sniper, man. He's got power, good boxing, long. It's a super interesting fight. Very interesting. Yeah, can't wait to see it. Yeah, so we got that.

Obviously, we already know December Marab and Peter Yan running it back. And Pantoja, Joshua Vann. That's a fun fight, too. I really like that. Oh, yeah. So, real quick for a get out of here, I'm only going to ask you this because you've been in this situation, man. I just want to get you to weigh in.

Because when I put out, last night, I put out the main card for UFC 322, York card. And Benile Darius and Benoit Saint-Deney, which is a tremendous fight, is the prelim. They bump Bo Nicol back under the main card for his fight with Rodolfo Vieira. And that was the one reaction I got was like, what are you doing? Like, he just lost the Rainier de Ritter. Why are you putting him back on the main card and putting this incredible lightweight fight on the prelimbs? I'm not even going to have, I mean, you obviously can weigh in on the Bo Nickel situation. But Matt, you've been there. Like, I just mentioned the card. that Connor that you have whatever number I care what number that one one two hundred

ninety seven ninety eight whatever it was one where you were Connor fought Chad Mendez and Rory and Robbie were the co-main you were the future pre-lin what Tim means because remember everything was a decision you in there and submitted Tim Means and that started the streak where everything ended up being a finish that ended up being like the best six fight card ever started by you but I'm curious as a fighter in your own career did you ever take offense or get mad when you didn't get a main card slot that you probably should have gotten because in this case like if i'm benille and benoit i'm like man like come on now he's still a prospect he's coming off a loss or putting him on the main card over us like too

ranked like this is a top 15 match up a lightweight on the other side you say well they are going to help get people interested in the prelims like people are going to tune into watch so i don't know did you ever get upset by your place on a car because i wonder how much fighters actually even care about that i absolutely did and like i know why they do it right right like you said like they want people to watch the main card, right? And, you know, a lot, it's a good argument, right, that you do get more viewers, right? Like, you know, less people are going to buy it, then are going to watch it for free. But I don't know, I always felt sited personally.

And I'm sure other fighters feel the same way. But it's also one of those things, like you feel sited for like two seconds. You know, okay, well, we still got to go fight. you know, so fuck it, let's go. But yeah, I mean, we all want the main card, right? We all want to be, you know, the closer to the top, the better, right? That's what our, the way our mindsets are. That's what our mind goes towards every time.

But, yeah, that's about all I got to say about, I guess, because that's really, that's all there is to it, man. Like, you feel slighted. I think it's different for a pay-per-view, too, right? Like, I know pay-per-views are going to be gone. Like, and this is one of the last ones. where it matters, but, like, there's prestige to being on the main card of, like, a pay-per-view card, which, you know, where are you going to call it, not numbered event, whatever you want

to call it? Like, there is prestige that goes along with, like, I was on the UFC 322 main card. You know what I mean? Like, there's a little prestige about that, right? And, like, now, Benille and Benoit, who both have looked good in their last couple of fights or ranked lightweight, so they're like, hold on. Now, we're playing second fiddle to Bo Nicol, who's coming off a loss, and we still don't really know what this guy's going to be, and Rodolfo Viehrer is a good fighter,

but, like, I don't look at that and say, man, that's a barn burner. that's just a guaranteed banger. Like that's just 1,000 percent. We're still, we're still betting big on Bo Nickel, and we're going to put Bo Nickel in a spot to succeed. It's not about, it's a better fight because it's not.

Benoit Saint-Deney and Benile Derrush is a better fight. But, yeah, like, I don't know, man. Like, I don't take it as a slight, and obviously, you know, I don't think it's Bo's fault. You know, UFC makes the card. But, like, yeah, it seems kind of weird. Like, after a loss, like, if he had won,

okay, maybe you're going to build him towards that top 15. but now, like, why does he still get a main card slot over that? I don't know. It's just me. I thought it was an odd placement. No, it's definitely odd. But, again, we know what the UFC's doing with it. They know Benoit and Benile Der Rouge are going to put on a great fight.

You know, those guys always put on great fights, as a matter of fact. So I think it's a pretty well set in stone. Like, that's going to be a good fight and it's going to get potentially get more people. I just always wondered how much that actually works. Like, like, okay, the last fight of the. prelims is the greatest fight you've ever seen in your life. Is everybody, like, is anybody buying the card that wasn't already going to buy

the card now? Like, oh, dude, like, I wasn't going to spend 80 bucks, but now I'd just seen that fight. Like, now I'm going to spend 80 bucks. Like, how often does this actually happen? Yeah, I think it'll matter more on the new deal, people like sticking around. Like, I'm going to stay on Paramount Plus to watch

because it's free. Like, at that point, you're already watching it. But yeah, it is kind of a weird thing. Like, I, man, I just saw a great. I mean, now I've decided to put down $80. If you didn't already think about putting down the $80, you probably weren't anyways. Yeah. So I've always just wondered about that. So that mentality or that, that argument that they kind of make for that or the justification never really made sense to me.

I don't, I don't know. But so being that I never really felt the same way about it in that argument, then if I was not on the main card, then I was like. some bullshit. I should be on the main card. I agree. I agree. I haven't heard, I don't know. I don't know. I heard Benile or Benoit say anything. So maybe they don't even care, but we'll see. Yeah, well, I mean, he also, like, I mean, every time we're on the prelims, you feel that way, you don't go out speaking about it publicly either. I mean, you, you focus on the fight. You do what you got to do. You accept things the way they are, and you just go in and fight. You know, you can, it's not like you go make a big deal out of it. And they're going to be like,

oh, we thought you wanted to be on the prelim, so we'll put you on the main event now. It doesn't work that way. So you just accept it. Go out there, put on the best performance you can, try to get on the main event for next time. Yeah, 100%. Well, we'll have lots to talk about. The next couple of events, I'll be honest, Matt, aren't incredible.

I do think Steve Garcia and David O'Nama is a banger. It's just not like a big publicized main event. And then Gabriel Bonfim and Randy Brown, sorry, I'm not like super jazzed about that one. But it's almost like they're warming us up because November 15th, we get Islam and Jack Della Madelena and Valentina and Changi Lee and all those other fights. So we'll have lots to talk about with that.

As always, Matt, I want to give you a chance people who want to check out what you got going on outside of this podcast. Well, where can people check you out? What do you got going on? Check out. I am Immortal, Instagram and Twitter, the Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook.

And we'll obviously be back next week. We'll see what else out. Hopefully by next week we'll hear. We still haven't heard from Tom Aspinall. So hopefully we'll hear from him, see how bad that eye injury is. Like we get a better idea when we're going to get that rematch scheduled. And obviously we'll draw closer to Islam and Jack

and all the other fight. So stay tuned for that. As always, want to say a big thank you to tune in the podcast. Make sure you check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify. And, of course, over on the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin. We will see you guys next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider.

Thanks for tuning in. And we'll see you that. Podcast Network. Cool.