MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Says Colby Covington Hasn’t Been Elite for Quite Some Time and What is Joaquin Buckley’s Ceiling?

Episode Date: December 17, 2024

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin discuss what comes next for Colby Covington after a lopsided loss at UFC Tampa and if his days as an elite contender are already over. Plus we discuss how far Joaquin Buckley could go at welterweight and discuss Tyson Fury vs. Oleksandr Usyk 2 plus much more. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, we have officially closed the final UFC card for 2024. We are now headed in to 2025 with a bit of a break. Actually, we have a big boxing mess this weekend,

but we have basically like a four-week break until our next UFC show. Yeah, it's pretty rare for it. It seems like these days, right? But, hey, close out with a pretty good show, though. Both have really looked great. and, you know, Cub Swanson pulling off a big finish at the end. And so, yeah, it was actually a pretty decent card.

You know, we always, we were talking about it last week, right? Sometimes these little, I don't know, cards that you kind of don't think about as much. Sometimes these are better, right? Like this one outshined, what was the last UFC? 310, yeah, yeah. Yeah, this one kind of outshine that, in my opinion. Yeah, it was good.

It was a solid event. Crowd was great. another massive gate for the UFC, which is not totally a shock. But, yeah, close on on a strong note. And, you know, we get a bit of a break now around the holidays. I think that's on purpose because people traveling and, you know, no one's really going to sit around and watch a lot of fights at that point. So get a nice little four-week break here and kind of gear up for 2025.

We get going pretty quick with a fight night event in January. Then we go right into pay-per-view, which is Islam and Armin and Marab and Umar. So a little break. And then, you know, I like, we talk about this all the time. back of the day, you'd wait two months for a Yoshi shows. There's like six a year. At least, yeah. And now, you know, now we have them so often you kind of take for granted. It's like,

I bet by the end of this four week break, everyone's going to be like, I need a UFC event. Come on. It's been too long. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because back on the message boards back in the day, remember, that's what we were talking about. Like, dude, I wish there was more fights, et cetera, et cetera. And now you get it. Now everybody's bitching that there's too many

fights and it's oversaturated. It's like, bro, this is what we asked for. We wanted it to be on ESPN. We wanted it to be all the time. We wanted fights every weekend or at least, you know, more than once a month. And we got what we asked for. And, you know, I guess some people

will bitch about anything, though, right? Yeah, we might get even more because I was listening to an interview with Mark Shapiro, the president of TKO, the owners of the UFC. And he was talking about the new TV deal because that's coming up next year. And he was saying, like, basically, we're flexible to work

with our partners to get what they need, like to get what they want. that means like splitting the package, meaning maybe the UFC is on ESPN and Netflix. They'll do that. He said, we're open to maybe adding more shows, doing different shows,

like we're open to everything. So listen, money talks. Remember, I think I said this, I think I said this earlier this year. He said, he was talking about pay-per-view, and he said,

hey, like, we're not opposed to getting rid of pay-per-view. If someone pays us, you know, so when if Netflix comes and say, we're going to pay you $10 billion, we don't want pay-per-view. We want us to all be like Jake Paul,

Mike Tyson. and we want 100 million people to tune in to watch, you know, John Jones, Tom Aspinall, or whatever fight it is. If they pay, the UFC is going to be like, all right. So, like, I think, I think, like, 2025 is going to be such a big year because not only is the new TV deal going to come, but this could introduce, I mean, maybe nothing changes. Maybe they just re-up with the ESPN and it's all the same. But there is a world where, hey, pay-per-view could go away.

They could do 50, there's 52 weeks a year. Maybe they do 50 cars a year. I mean, there's all kinds of possibilities. Yeah. And I wonder how much sense that makes for someone like Netflix, right? Where like how many subscribers are they going to gain from that? Is it going to be worth it to them? You know, just, I don't know.

It'd be cool to see behind the scenes and some of the math and some of the analytics that they're running on that. I think that'd be pretty fascinating stuff because UFC is such a monster. But, you know, is it really worth it for Netflix? Because they're a monster too. Netflix has 282 million subscribers. They are so far ahead of everyone else in terms of like, streaming. But I think the key for Netflix and why they're getting into like the NFL's going to be on there on Christmas Day. They did the Jake Paul Mike Tyson. I think it's as much about keeping the subscribers they have versus adding a bunch more. I mean, if they get the UFC, there's going to be people who don't have Netflix who are going to subscribe to Netflix because there's some people who are just, but I think also you got to remember that they want to keep the people that are there. And they got to keep offering them things to keep them there. You know what I mean? So. If you say, hey, you're paying us $15 a month, you know, and maybe we're not making the TV shows you want or maybe we're not getting the movies you want.

But now we're going to have the UFC. Maybe 20, 30 million subscribers are like, well, I'll keep Netflix. You know, so it's a balancing act. It could be adding, but it could also just be keeping the people you have. Yeah, that's a great point. I wonder if they even increase the charge if they bring in like a UFC or more NFL and, you know, to cover that cost. Yeah, I mean, I think anything's possible. Like I said, Netflix is the one.

That's like the one that's like hanging out there that I can't ignore because now they're in business with WWE, which is obviously the UFC's business partner. And UFC is bigger than WWE. Like that's a bigger property, you know, in terms of money. So, yeah, I think anything's possible. I think that's the one that I'm keeping an eye on the most. I think Amazon is out there. I think that's a possibility.

They got all the money in the world to spend. So that's a possibility as well. But again, I think Netflix is the one that everyone's got their eye on. because they got the money, they got the resources, and the UFC is something that they can land while it's going to be expensive. I mean, they may spend, I don't know, you know, $5,6 billion. That sounds like a lot of money, but that's not nearly as much as they would spend to land the NFL or Major League Baseball or the NBA.

So it's kind of like let's dip our toe into live sports and let's go with a property that we know does well. It has a year-long product. There's no breaks. there's no off season, and let's see how it does. And I think there's a real world where that happens. And I'd love to see them get rid of the pay-per-views, you know, like especially there's so many of them now. I mean, you spend, you know, 80 bucks on a pay-per-view.

And if we could get that on Netflix or Amazon, I mean, it's just going to blow up. And then, you know, it seems to me like it would make sense for someone like Amazon to take that dive, put in the investment, outbid Netflix. Because Amazon Prime is just no. not, you know, like you said, Netflix is like buying far and large. Like the number one, but for Amazon, that changes the whole game for them, right? Like now they're the UFC's premier spot. And I think that's a game changer on their end.

And I think, you know, I think like a lot of people have said like they'll never do away a pay-per-view. And I think if you're asking me to put a bet on it, I would say probably not because it still does make a lot of money. But you know what I think? Honestly, Matt, and I think if this comes to pass, and let's say Netflix does do the deal, the UFC might want to send a thank you card to Jake Paul and Mike Tyson, because I think that fight doing 100 million viewers, like that many people watching that,

if I, 65 million concurring, meaning 65 million people at one time were watching fucking Jake Paul and Mike Tyson. That right there might be enough for Netflix and say, you know what? Here's the blank check. give us the UFC with no pay-per-view. And the UFC says, great, signs the check. And we don't have a bit. There's a real world where I think that influences this decision.

Because now they have proof. Like, though, we did a fight and we did it on Netflix for free or, you know, with a subscription and 100 million people watched. Now, obviously not every UFC card is going to get 100 million people. But if you get 50, 40, 30, I mean, that's a shit ton of people watching an event. Yeah. And you get more people getting together to, do it and you know i don't i don't know my question with all that is like how would that affect

the fighter pay right because they get a percentage of the revenues of a pay-per-view so that would be the first thing i would wonder about how they would make that work yeah it would be interesting i mean obviously i think at that point you'd have to start renegotiating some contracts i mean guys like you know guys like a john jones like you know if he fights tom aspinall next year that's a monster fight and that would probably yield him a big pay So he's probably going to say, I want 20 million guaranteed. Like, I don't want back end. I want 20 million guaranteed to fight because now I'm not getting pay-per-view.

So, yeah, and again, like, it doesn't affect everybody. We know the pay-per-view bonuses typically go to a couple of the superstars like Connor, you know, Jones, guys like that, and then the champions. And for those that don't know how the pay-per-view bonuses work, it's you have to beat a certain threshold. Like, you don't just get money from a pay-per-view. Like, you have to sell. I care what the number is. Yeah, you have to beat a certain number to start getting a percentage of the pay-per-view. It used to be $250.

I don't know if that's that anymore. I know when I was fought the title contender match with Robbie Lawler, like we had started discussing some of those contracts with my manager, and it was 100,000 and then 4% after that. And that was maybe it was different than other contracts, but that was the standard that I'd heard back then. Yeah, so I mean, but again, that's like, you know, that's when you sought to get that.

you start to beat that. You know what I mean? You start to beat 100,000 and start getting paid. And then it's beyond 100,000. So if you do 150,000 buys, that's not going to be nearly as much as if you do 700,000 buys. So, yeah. Yeah, so I think that's a real world. But like I said, I don't know what's going to happen.

I can't sit here and play a prediction and tell you for sure what's going to happen. But next year is going to be a big year because everyone's going to want a piece of this because the UFC is the last major sports property that comes available for three years. the next major sports property that will be available is baseball and that's in like 2029 or something like that or 2028. So the UFC is at a great position right now

because if you're a streaming service and you want live sports, you're not going to be able to get anything else for three more years. And if you do a five year, if you do a five year deal with the UFC, I mean, you're already going to be three years into that by the time that even comes available.

So. Yeah, now when's this contract negotiations is going to be, I don't know, finalized or what's the time? line looking like here. So an official, the window officially opens in January and they have, I believe, a three month negotiation, I think it's like

a three to four month negotiating window exclusive to ESPN. So April, I think, is when things open up. Now, I'll tell you ahead of time, and this happened because I was at Fox when this happened before and I remember when it happened when they went to Fox from Spike TV or whatever it was at that point.

They never get a new deal during that negotiating window. They're never ever, unless, unless Unless ESPN breaks the bank and offers them just an absurd amount of money, they're never going to get it done during that negotiating window. Because they've got to see what else is out there. They got to find out like, you know, so April, I think is like end of March going to April is the end of the negotiating window. And I would say by probably June will have a pretty definitive answer of where they're going. It may be quicker than that.

They may, as soon as April window opens up, Netflix may say, here's $10 billion, fuck off ESPN. You're coming with us. And that's the end of it. You know what I mean? So these negotiations tend to move pretty quick. So I would say April's when the game really starts because they're not going to sign with the ESPN during that window. No one ever does. They need to know what else is out there.

What is Apple willing to pay? What is Amazon willing to pay? What is CBS willing to pay? What is NBC willing to pay? Like, what are these places willing to pay to get the UFC? They won't know that until that negotiating windows is closed. So April is when we're going to start finding out more. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

they're in such a strong position with their numbers and everything that, yeah, they're going to wait and they're going to get a big number. We know that. I think that's pretty much set in stone. Like there's going to be some big, big numbers thrown out there. And they're going to have a, they're probably going to have some tough decisions on how they move forward with it. But it's all going to be good problems to have. Like, these are the problems that every business owner dreams of. Yeah, I mean, they're crushing.

I mean, they just did another massive gate in Tampa. And that wasn't, you know, it wasn't like they had like a ton of star. on that card. I mean, you know, you can say Colby, Colby, kind, I guess. And I think Cubs Swanson's the legend. He definitely draws a crowd because he's a name. But, you know, none of the guys that were on this car were like huge draws. Like, they didn't put

Porre on there. They didn't put Masmedol on there. Guys who we just know, you know, people just tune in to watch them. And they still did it. Like a $3 million gate, biggest ever sold it out. I mean, come on. The UFC's just printing money right now. They can do no wrong. Yeah, and we talked about a million times, right? It's the brand, right?

like UFC brand they don't even need big names man they put on a fight card everybody's going to go watch that son of a bitch and then when they do put on a big fight card everybody really does tune in to watch that son of a bitch like it's like you know like everybody ever so yeah they're in a they're at a perfect position right now and again you could not ask for a better time for this tv deal to come up because like the way that they're doing right now everyone wants a piece of the UFC and so like I think there's a real growing I want to say concern, a real growing acknowledgement that ESPN probably won't be able to keep all the packages. They might keep part of it. They might be able to split it and say, hey, we're going to keep, you know,

fight night events over here and you're going to do pay previews with Netflix or whatever. I have no idea. But like, I have a hard time believing ESPN is going to keep everything. There's just, it's getting too big and too much money and ESPN they're not doing what they once did in terms

of money. Like, they just paid for the NBA, and that was a massive deal. They're not doing the business that Netflix is doing. They're not, you know, so I'm just saying, like, I think we're entering a world now where we got to realize, like, ESPN's probably not going to be the exclusive home of the UFC after 2025. I think it's going to, at best, I think they're going to keep part of it. Has any of those streaming services ever done a pay-per-view before?

I don't remember ever see anything like that. No, I mean, I think Amazon has done it because they did the people. BBC stuff a little bit. I think they've done like one event. And I obviously said it has dezone, but that doesn't count. Like, DeZone's not going to buy it. DeZone's not in the running.

Netflix has never done it. I don't think they ever would. I think their product is you're paying 15, 16 bucks a month for our streaming service. You get everything. That's kind of their acknowledgement. Just like they did with Jake Paul Mike Tyson. They didn't charge it any extra for it.

They're not charging extra for the NFL. Like they just want people to subscribe and stay there. And generally speaking, people who subscribe to Netflix, don't leave. So that's what they're banking on. Like, if they get, if the U.S. goes to Netflix and they get to, let's say they get to 300 million subscribers. That's a ridiculous number.

300 million people worldwide. At that point, again, all they have to care about is just keeping those 300 million. You know, they don't have to worry about, you know, getting a 350. I mean, sure, that'd be great. But they're just, once they keep, because no one's going to come close to that. No one is going to touch that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, man, I would be stoked if we could have, you have, UFC's on Netflix on the regular, no paper views. We just know. Like you keep Netflix, you get to watch as much UFC as you want. Yeah. And again, I think there's a world where if a place is willing to pay, and you got to remember, when they did the last deal, they were ready to sign with Amazon.

They were ready to be done and go to Amazon. Then ESPN came in and up the offer and they went with ESPN. So the players are out there. Like people are going to put money into this. and knowing how much revenue and everything the EOC is generating, there's no way they're not going to get some bonkers offers here. And again, I think it will, there will come, you know, availability is going to play a part in it. Like, I don't think they're going to sign with some random streamer that's just, you know, starting up or something stupid like that.

But I think Netflix and Amazon have to be the two biggest, like, unknowns, like how much they're going to offer. I think ESPN is going to be in the mix. But again, you don't know. I mean, like I said, maybe NBC looks at this and says, hey, like, we want, you know, we're, we need, we need a big sports property to keep us relevant. So, hey, here's $10 billion. We want the UFC. You never know. Like I said, you just never know how these things are going to go.

If I would have told you a decade ago, the UFC was going to go on ESPN, you probably would have said that was crazy because that just seemed like they wouldn't, they wouldn't take a chance on the UFC a decade ago. Yeah, the UFC didn't even, our USPN didn't even cover the UFC a decade ago. Remember, like they were kind of anti-UFC in a, you know. sense and that's what I said we always dreamed about this back in the day and now we got it so you know prop to the UFC man and they built a hell of a business and you know like you said these guys are just printing fucking money man absolutely so let's let's talk about the fights over the week and of course Joaquin buckley stops uh Colby covington third round due to a cut um I I hate when fights in like that not because I actually think the stoppage was was kind of justified

and I actually blame Colby for it because every time the cut man would get it to stop bleeding, he would immediately wipe his eye because it was bugging him and it would start pouring blood again. Did you notice that? Like he would just, and I get it. It's annoying, but he kept wiping his eye. And as soon as he would do it, the blood would just start gushing again. Like he would take away the Vaseline or whatever. So I hate that it would stop this way because I knew immediately the excuses would start and it's already happened.

Like I was surging. I would have come back. Colby's already said it. I hate that stuff, but it was not going well for Colby. Buckley was beating him up badly. No, and we talked about it last week. I mean, Colby just didn't look like he was, like he didn't really want to be there. You know, he looked slower.

He didn't have a great game play, and his striking looked worse than it has in the past, in my opinion. I'm not sure what he's doing for training, but it doesn't look to me like he's, you know, trying to get back to any sort of title contention or anything. and you look at his record in the past, what, four or five years, he's like one and four or something. And, you know, fighting like once a year, you know, you just don't see that hunger. And, you know, to fight a guy like Buckley in that situation is not good, right?

Like Buckley's an athlete, he's hungry, he's staying hard on it. He's doing great things. Looking great, you know, looking like a title contender in that kind of fight. So, you know, it was about what we, I wouldn't say, was what we expected, but we knew it was the possibility of this fight turning out exactly the way it did, just because of, you know, again, like Colby's, I don't know, I wouldn't even know if I say his age, but just, you know, whatever, I don't know the word I'm looking for, but, you know, he's just not, he's not the Colby that he used to be. And I think it was very obvious this time.

Yeah. Have we, do you feel like, and again, like, the cut ending the fight does, Open that window a little bit for Colby to say, like, I would have won if he would give me two more rounds. I understand all that. Yeah, so I get that. But have we kind of, because, and I just also know Colby, I think in February, he turns 37. So he's getting up there for, you know, an elite welterweight. Do you think we've closed the door on Colby Covington as an elite welterweight? And, I mean, you could argue, I mean, no offense.

He didn't really deserve the Leon Edwards fight when he got it. I mean, he was shutting off a year and a half layoff and his last win was over. who I was Mazvedol. Like that's how long ago he had fought. He beat Mazadol. Masadol was like he'd been retired for like two years. He didn't deserve it then. He got it because his name.

He didn't get it because he deserved anyone out there and looked terrible. And it was a terrible fight. And he lost in lopside of fashion in a pretty lackluster performance. But do you feel like this? I know, listen, I know it's impossible to ever fully close the door on anybody because, you know, there's weird things can happen. Timing opportunity. We get all that. But just in terms of on paper, have we said goodbye to Colby Coveington as like an elite, quote unquote, elite welterweight?

That's a good question. It's hard to argue that he's really been elite for a while, really. I mean, he hasn't done anything elite for a long time. So, yeah, I'm not even sure if the door was already closed. I thought this was kind of his chance to show that he is still an elite welterweight and he didn't pass the test. So, yeah, he's, you know, but I think that door might have already been closed, I guess, is the only caveat to that. But, you know, we'll see. I guess the question is whether he retires, right?

It's not even whether he's elite Walter Wade anymore. I think that that answer is pretty clear. But is he going to stick around? Is he going to keep fighting? Because he's kind of lived off of his stick more so than off his performances, right? Yeah, I was looking at it earlier today. and I kind of was trying to remember, and I was like, when was the last time Colby had, like, a truly impressive performance? And I think the last time I can remember, like, him really, like, just kind of blowing us away a little bit was the fight with Robbie Lawler, where he went out there and we really pushed the pace and really put it on Robbie Lawler.

And that was like 2017, I think, something like that. Like, it was a while ago. And then he had, you know, he had that fight because the Dosanios fight wasn't great. It was a, you know, he won, but it wasn't like this blowout performance. and Colby hasn't had a finish since he beat Max Griffin and that was in like 2014 or whatever, 2015. The Robbie Lauder fight was impressive, but then he goes out there

and gets his jaw broken by Kamar Uspin one fight later. He beats Tyron Woodley, I think, or whatever. He goes on and gets another rematch with Usman, loses that fight, goes out, you know, it's just, I feel like, I asked this question over the weekend and I said, if we're saying goodbye to Colby as like a contender now, like he can still have some fun fights

and he can still be, do the stupid Colby shit. But, like, I think we got to, I think his days of, like, I'm going to go earn my way to a fight against Bilal Muhammad or Shafatat Ratman. I think those days are done. But can he still sell a fight because he's Colby? Sure. But I was like, how are we going to remember Colby? Because if you really think about it, man,

and I'm not trying to dog the guy. Listen, the guy got title fights. No one's going to fault him for getting the title fights. But every big, really substantial moment in his career, He's lost. He lost to Usman twice. He lost to Leon Edwards. Like, somebody was like, what's the comparison?

And I saw somebody on Twitter earlier today. I said this. I was like, that's actually pretty sharp. They said he's kind of like Josh Koshchek. Josh was loud, talked a lot. Always kind of right in the mix. He could never get past GSP. And then he kind of just faded away.

And how often do people talk about Josh Kosteck now? Yeah, not very much. That's a good point. Yeah, yeah. And it's, you know, like there's a different ways to build your name, right? Kobe kind of went the jail signing route, right? Like talk to shit and, you know, get out there and get people talking about you. You say you get the numbers and that's kind of how you're in the shot.

Or, you know, you also have the Blah Muhammad route, right? Where he doesn't really talk a lot of shit or anything, but he goes out there and performs. And Kobe did the talking route. You know, and I think that's probably what he'll be remembered for, right? Right, same as Josh Kostchek. Like, we don't necessarily remember a lot of his performances, even though he was a really good fighter. That's not the first thing you think of when you think of Josh Kosteck. You think of the loudmouth, brash guy.

You know, and that's what Colby's going to be remembered for. And people even now, like if you mention Kobe, like the first thing that pops in their head is going to be his stick, right? The shit that he talked and the people that he upset or the weird things that he said. It's not going to be, it's not his fights. And again, you know, it's different paths for different people. But, you know, it's a fair game to both, right? Like he's made his money. It has some fun doing it.

So, you know, good for him. It was funny what you said earlier, though. I think you're right. He's like, like, is this the end of him being an elite Welchway? And you said, like, was he still an elite welterweight coming into this? And I think you got a point there because one of my biggest complaints going into Leon Edwards' fight was his last two wins were Tyre Woodley. and Mazvedal. Now, I love both guys.

I like both guys a lot. But Woodley was on just a really bad run at that point, and it was almost like he was just, he just needed a break, and he got out of the UFC after that. And Mazvedal retired one fight later, and I think we just knew like that just was not a good fight. And it wasn't a great fight.

It was a pretty boring fight. Call me won. Don't get me wrong. He absolutely won. But that wasn't the same Mazvedal that went out there and starched Ben Ascran. Like, I know it's only a couple years difference, but a couple years makes a lot of difference.

like well you also also it's also one of those fights where you're like Masvedol ran out of time more than he lost right like like Colby wasn't hurting him wasn't doing anything to him just holding him down it's like okay well the time expired you know that like that's all there was to it yeah but yeah I think you got a point there because they were saying I say now because it's like Buckley was whatever seventh or eighth in the world like and he was not what he didn't he win he won he didn't even win when he got the one takedown he didn't really win that he just got to take that he didn't do anything with it. He just laid on top of Buckley and tried to advance the position.

Didn't really do any damage. Didn't hit him with any big bombs. Didn't drop any elbows. And then Buckley exploded out and got out from under him. Like, he didn't really do, he didn't have really any offense in that fight. And that was like on paper the number seven or eight guy in the world. I mean, you know what I mean? Like if he fought Shabkatat-Rak-Mannop tomorrow, are we even going to, that's, that's, he would be a massive underdog. He would be a huge underdog in a fight like that. I mean, Machado Gary. Like, I think he'd be a huge. underdog in that fight. I suggested maybe he fights Gilbert Burns or Wonderboy, you know,

guys that are, you know, veterans who are still out there doing it, but aren't maybe, you know, I mean, I think Gilbert's lost three in a row. Wonderboy is like one in four or one and three in his last four. I think that's where Colby's at now if he's going to keep going. But I agree with you. I think there's a world where maybe he just doesn't come back. But it's just weird because he was such a name, like such a, you just, everyone kind of talks about him, but it's never about the fights.

you know what I mean? We're never like, man, remember that classic Colby performance? The only one that I would say what was about the fight was the Robbie Lawler fight. And that Colby Covington looked like he could beat just about anybody that day. You know what I mean? Like that was a great performance

and just the volume that he put on, the pace, the cardio. He looked amazing. You know, didn't really take any big shots that I remember or anything. But we only seen that once. that's the only time we've seen him put on an amazing performance and I just wonder if he kind of started to rely on his stick a little bit too much

and kind of forgot about oh I got to stay in the gym and train and I got to push at pace like that and you know it's kind of a tragedy because I thought he was a really great prospect I thought he could have done some big things I think he could have put on some great fights with a lot of people but my feeling was that he just got caught up in a stick too much and kind of relied on that. And I kind of felt the same way about Chale Sanna back in the day,

which we all love Chale, right? But I kind of felt like, you know, the first Anderson fight, you know, the stick worked to get him that fight. And then, you know, he got triangled right in the last, what, 30 seconds or something, which was amazing. It seemed like it just broke him. And he was like, okay, I'm just, I'm doing the stick now. I don't have to be in the gym, busting balls when I can just do this stick and get paid.

And I think, but I think the biggest difference with, uh, with, uh, shit, Chill and Colby is chill always had like this natural charisma to him, right? Like, he just had a, he had this personality. When Colby talks, it always feels rehearsed. Like, it always feels like, yeah, it feels like he's in the back, right in lines, like, okay, I gotta say this and I got to, I got to pull out this line and I got to, I got to do this. it, like, it always feels like he's rehearsed a speech in the back and he's like, when he goes

out to a press or he's got to pull out the hits, you know what I mean? And he's like, I got to play satisfaction. I got to play, you can't always get what you want. He's got to play the hits. But Chill had a charisma about him. Like, yes, Chil had canned lines too. Like, he stole lines from pro wrestling. But Chale had a charisma.

You know what I mean? Like, Chil just had a charisma to him. Colby does. That's why he said, like, even like, like, chill, when he retired, now Chil is still one of the most talked about guys in their sport. Like, when Chil does interviews, when Chil does his YouTube channel, people pay attention. I don't know that Col, I almost feel like Colby is just going to kind of like fade away. Like, I don't think Colby's going to start a YouTube channel and people are going to be like,

oh, man, I can't wait to hear Colby's opinions on fights. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's also part of like, like Colby making himself the villain too, right? And, and he did a very good job of it. Like, people really disliked him, right? A lot of people. I don't know if anybody really liked him. But then, you know, Chale, like, he played a little bit of villain, but he just said like, cool shit, you know, where we were like, oh, damn, that was a slick line, you know? And, and that's, To me, that's the big difference. Like, he didn't really shoot for, you know, trying to be the heel. Where Colby, that was his whole schick.

Like, you know, I'm just going to say the most fucked up shit and be the heel. And also, Chale's trash talk was usually aimed at people. Colby has attached himself so much to Trump that it's almost like you forget he's talking about opponents because he's just turned into like this weird political lightning rod. And whatever, I don't care. And you know what, to his credit, it worked at the beginning. Like, it worked when he was like the first. fire brand Trump guy.

But then it's like now we're, I mean, at this point, we're more than eight years later. Like Trump's presidency, he's now in the second, he's about to go into the office again. Eight years after he started, it's almost like, all right, dude, we get it. Like, you know, it's like you're just, you're saying the same thing over and over. Like, I think that's the, like, the difficulty when you attach yourself to a person like that is that I'm not even saying, like, I think it was probably a good move at the time. But now we're eight years past it. It's like, when we talk about Connor, like, yeah, Connor was amazing. It was 2016 when he was amazing.

Like, we're, we're going to enter 2025. Like, I think Connor's still a star, but that's not the Connor who knocked out any opera as in 2016. For sure. And you can't attach yourself to another person. Like you said, it worked great at the time, but like Trump doesn't give a fuck. You know, whether you love or hate Trump, I don't give a shit. Like, we all know he's a self-centered ego guy, right?

He does not give a fuck about anybody. He wants votes, right? He doesn't give a fuck about one guy. you know, talking about how much he loves him. Like, it's a very strange thing to attach yourself to. Yeah, if Trump was going to, like, rage and, like, say he loved anybody, he's going to thank Joe Rogan. Like, Joe Rogan helped get him elected.

How much to, like, does he really care that Colby's out there wearing suits that say make America great again? Like, does he really, like, you know what I mean? Like, Joe Rogan brought him votes. Like, legitimately brought him votes. I don't know that anyone, I don't know that anyone's looked at the Colby coming to press government and said, man, I got to go. go vote for Trump now.

Right, right. Yeah, completely different. So, yeah, it is what it is, man. So I hope Kobe, I hope the best for Colby, man. I hope that he comes back better, you know. I hope that he kind of learns his lessons from this and he comes back better, you know. I hope that he gets back in the gym, trains hard. I think he's still got fights left in him.

But, you know, he's got to crack down and get back to the gym and train like he did when he was an up-and-comer because he was a threatening welterweight when he was an up-and-comer. I was watching a lot of them. You know, he was coming up as I was still competing. And, you know, he had a lot of tools at his disposal, particularly, like you said, his cardio and his pace. And when he fought Robbie Lawler, you know, he was a unique guy to have to face at that time. And I think he could still do it. You know, I think he could still be that guy.

But does he have that hunger? And I thought that answered the question last. weekend. I did not see the hunger. He didn't argue the ref stoppage, you know, or the doctor stoppage. You know, he wasn't, it just didn't look like he even wanted to be there. And he was like, cool, you know, I lost for a cut. That's better than, you know, a TKO or a knockout, which I guess is technically a TKO, but it's better than like a knockout or a referee stoppage. And that'd be an easy way to make an excuse is how I could have came back and won that fight. And those are, you know, it's unfortunate when those types of things start going through your brain,

through your mind, that's when, that's when you know it's time to stop. Yeah, and last thing I'll say on this, Matt, even if he goes and hits the gym and becomes the old Colby at 37, I guess my point that I said that I started this conversation with is still true. He could go back to me in the old Colby, he can hit the grind, he can do all that kind of stuff.

But at 37, I don't, I still don't see him getting to that top level again. Like, can he still win fights? Yeah, can he still? still win fights, can he still be a good fighter? Absolutely, he can. But I don't think he's ever going to get to the point where he's like a top five guy again. I think those days are done.

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath. I don't anticipate it either. I'm just saying he can, you know, I think it's possible. Like I'm a believer, man. I'm optimistic about things. And I believe, like I said about Connor a couple weeks ago, right? I'm like, bro, like you get back in the gym, train like you used to. Like you can still do this.

It'd be good for you, good for your family. Same with Rhonda. Right. we've had these discussions with some of these people that kind of fell off and got stuck on their little stick. And, you know, I just believe it's possible. But they got to forget about that stick and just go in and be martial artist and be hungry athletes. So far in those two cases, we're over two.

I don't know if Colby's going to make it over three. Like the guys who you say, they can do it, but will they do it? We're not having a good batting. We're not having a good batting average right now, Matt. Are those guys actually taking the advice? no no i don't expect them to and and it's hard man especially like once you get some money and and you're kind of living more comfortably the old saying is you know it's hard to go for a run at 5 a m when you're sleeping on silk sheets and you know and that's kind of the situation these guys

are in yeah so now on the flip side we're walking buckley what is his ceiling now because when he started winning when he started winning at welterweight he was impressive finishes big finishes looked good and again he didn't just blow Wonderboy out of the water he had some rough moments early on but then man he just knew it

he knew he had to pull the trigger when he did he knocked him out and knocked him out hard and again we all know knocking out Wonderboy means something I don't care of Wonder Boy is 45 he's still an elite striker he may not be an elite MMA fighter at this stage he's group he's still an elite striker and Buckley knocked him out

if you would have asked me a year ago I would have said I think Buckley could be a contender but I don't really see him being like the top guy, like a guy who's going to be champion. Like he'll be one of those guys who sits on that like top five range. You know what I mean? After what he did last night in the main event

and absolutely just dismantled Colby Covington, I think he's got championship material. I really do. Yeah, I agree. I don't think that Colby is necessarily, again, because I just don't know where Colby's at mentally and physically at this point. But that's not. not necessarily the thing that makes me believe that, but Buckley's just showing all the right

things, right? He's doing all the right things to be a title contender, if not a title holder. And, I mean, he has the athleticism. He's got the power. You know, he showed some good cardio with Colby that didn't look like he ever got tired. Everything, all the, all the signs are looking up for Joaquin Buckley right now. It's looking great for him. and I don't know what the ceiling is for him. You know, you just, like, Colby didn't expose any holes in Buckley's game where he said, damn, like, I don't know if he can be a title contender.

I think it would be more interesting when we see him in his, whatever his next matchup is, because we know he's going to probably be fighting a top five guy, right? And he's going to be fighting somebody hungry. I think there's a lot of great options out there for him. But I just think we'll see a lot more in his next fight. he called he did a great thing i loved to the end of the fight he called to the crowd and so i named some names and you tell me which one you want and i think at the end it was kamar usman i think that is the perfect fight right now usman is the perfect fight right now usman is the fight book right now he was just talking about maybe he was going to step in and fight shabkat that didn't happen Usman Buckley is a fight to make in 2025. I mean, it just is.

And then obviously the winner could easily shift right in to fight the winner of Bilau and Shavkat. Like, it's just perfectly set up. Yeah, I agree. I think that's a great fight for him. You know, the only question is where is Uzman at right now. You know, I do think that is a question. But for Buckley, I mean, I think that's a no-brainer. He'd absolutely go for that fight.

for Usman you know I don't know it depends on you know I'm not sure how he likes that matchup you know I think it's a tough matchup for him but I think we'd find out a lot about both of them where usman's at in his career and where Buckley um where his ceiling actually is uh yeah that's a really great fight I think it makes a lot of sense and like I said I think the ceiling is is exploded for walking Buckley now like I really do believe he could be a champion and again it always comes down to timing and matchups and things like that. Just like I said, I think Bilal Muhammad could be, I said could be Shabkat's kryptonite because of his pace, his wrestling, all those kind of things.

Buckley's power, Buckley, you know, again, we don't know how he's going to do. And we still haven't seen him in that, you know, fourth and fifth round, things like that. But he's a problem is what I'm getting at. He's a problem. And so I think there's potential there. Again, do I think, do I, can I guarantee he's going to be champion? I don't know, but I think he's got the potential to do it, just like we said Shabat two years ago.

whatever said that guy's got, Amy and Jaddo Gary, you know, we said even after the shop cap, I'm like, that guy's got championship material. I think you can add Joaquin Buckley into that list now.

Yeah, yeah. Like I said, he's showing all the right things. For Usman, you know, again, I just wonder where he's at mentally in his career right now,

right? You know, coming back to work for another title shot, we all know about his knee issues. He's had a lot of injuries over his career. I'm just not sure, you know, mentally. So if he's there,

you know, I think it's a great matchup for him. Definitely a winnable fight for him. But man, Buckley's a dangerous guy if you're not firing on all eight cylinders, you know, especially when you're talking about these guys that are up and coming like that and they're so hungry. Like Husband's been there, you know, do you have that motivation? Are you still training

like you did to get there? I think those are all questions that are important for, you know, they have to search their own souls to find those answers. And I think also just, you know, one thing I want to say real quick is even if Usman isn't the same Usman that was the champion and maybe

arguably the second best welterweight ever behind George St. Pierre there's still a name, right? And names matter. We can look at Saturday night and say I don't think Colby, I mean, again I think Colby, you said, like was Colby really still an elite Welterweight going into that fight? But Colby's got a name and for Buckley to beat the guy he did on

Saturday night matters, you know what I mean? So maybe Usman's not the same dude, but let's find out. And also it's a name and that you know that still matters like I said I keep using a Wonderboy as an example and I'm not trying to dog on Wonder Boy I'm just saying like Wonder Boy may not be the same Wonder Boy that

went 10 rounds with Tyron Woodley and had epic fights or whatever but he's still a name he's still a guy that matters he's a multi-time title challenge even at 42 or whatever he is it still matters it still is a meaningful win because of who Wonder Boy is Usman's very much the same thing like I don't know I can't tell you for sure who Usman's at

but he is a former champion he's still top three or four in the world, that to me makes a lot of sense for Buckley. And if Buckley goes out lays ways to Kumar Usman, then who's going to deny him a title shot? Yeah, that's big for him. That's a say, it's a no-brainer for Buckley. I'm just not sure for Usman. But what other names are out there in the top five right now? Maybe there are potential possibilities.

Honestly. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I mean, you could argue that the, you could argue that they could even potentially rebook because he was going to fight Ian Machado Gary on that card. And then obviously Ian got pulled to fight Shabcat. The other one is, there's two other names that are out there. Jack Della Madelana, who is injured right now, but I think he's going to try to come back by the Sydney card in February.

And then you got Sean Brady. Those are the two other names that are out there in that top five who don't have fights booked right now. I wouldn't hate either one of those, really, but it would be Uspin, Jack, or Sean Brady would be the guys who are immediately. there. Yeah, I really like a Sean Brady fight. Yeah, I think that's a great one. That's, I don't know, that's my, that's my pick out of all those.

But again, for Buckley, I mean, Usman is certainly going to be the one you're going to shoot for. That's the biggest name. That's a, you know, you know, I don't want to say, you know, I mean, he's probably the oldest of all of them, right? The more, he's got more miles on them than everybody else. So I think that's definitely the pick

if you're Buckley and you get the pick. But I think that Sean Brady matchup is just a great matchup all around. But also so is Jack. But that Sean Brady, I mean, he's a big enough name. Like, it still matters. That's not an easy fight for either guy. And I think we find out a lot about both of them in a fight like that. Yeah, it could be interesting.

It would be really interesting. Like I said, I think, again, there's options. But I get why you go for Usman. I mean, again, name power. You know, he's still former champion. And let's not forget, listen, Uspin's last fight. Yes, it was over a year ago.

but he went to middleweight on 10 days notice and took Hamza Tchamaya to a very close decision where we all have said if it would he went two more rounds Usman wins that fight and that was a fight he took on 10 days notice and going up a weight class. So I'm not sure I'm ready to bang the final nail

in Kumar Usman's coffin just yet. Oh no, no, I'm not saying that at all. My only question is, you know, like he hasn't fought for how long has it been? It's almost a year or whatever. It's over a year since the last October, yeah. Yeah, so that, just when I see that, it makes me question, you know, okay,

how hungry are you, how motivated are you, what are you coming back for? Are you, do you think you're going to get to a title? You know, so those just make me to ask those questions. And, you know, I obviously, I can't speak for Usman or I'm not going to try to impart what I think on it or whatever. But, you know, I think that is a valid question. No, it is. It is.

It's absolutely valid. Matt, as I said, we are, the MMA schedule is pretty much done for the year. I know there's going to be a rising card at the end of month, but I don't watch a lot of Risen. I don't know how much you watch, probably not a lot. I'm not usually staying up to watch Risen cards, but we do have a big boxing match this weekend from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Fury Ussick 2. Fury Ussick 1 was my favorite fight the year this year.

I loved that fight. It was so much fun. Great heavyweight fight. They're rematching it. I know I always turn to you for boxing knowledge. You know boxing far more than I ever know boxing. We talked a lot about this in the last one. So I'll ask you very plainly, Matt.

Do you see a different result in the rematch between Fury and Usik? Well, first, you may have caught up to me on boxing knowledge. You've been saying that for like 10 years now. At some point, you could have the boxing knowledge that I have. But no, man, I'd say it's hard. I don't see Fury beating. You know, I just stylistically. You know, Usoc is just so good, and, you know, you kind of know,

what you're going to get. You know, Fury's, I don't see anything in his game that's going to be. Like, I thought he was, you know, on top of his game the first time they fought. I don't think he had, like, a bad camp. He didn't look different than the normal Fury. So I'm just, I don't know what he could change up to beat Usoc this time. Usoc is a tough puzzle to solve. And, you know, you almost, you almost, you almost,

you almost have to be born a certain way to beat a guy like that. You know, I'm not sure how much you can train yourself to beat a guy like that. You know, same as like Lomacheco, right? There's certain guys that can just beat them just because of their styles or because of Lomachinko's own mental lapses or relaxation, I guess. Like when he fought Chalfa Mollapest, right? Like he just gave away to many rounds, right? He was the better fighter.

He slept. He slept, he slept through like four rounds. He didn't do anything really. And then he picked it up and he was winning, but he waited too late to do it. Exactly. He just gave away the fight, right? But it's hard to imagine, like, when I watch fighters like Usik and Lomachinko,

who both have the same trainer, right, and come from the same country and everything, it's just hard to imagine, like, a guy training to beat them because I'm not sure that there's an answer in that. Like, the only way you can kind of beat them is if, like, you naturally, your natural style is just a bad matchup for them. So I'm not seeing him where Fury is going to be able to change up his game enough to take out Ousek. So I'm picking Ousick again. Yeah, I am as well.

I mean, we talked about after the fight the first time. I mean, the first fight probably should have been a stoppage because you don't get to step in and save a guy when he's getting battered. And just because he's not going down and you give him a stand. It was still to me, that still bugs me to this day. He gave him like a standing tink out. And you're like, what are you doing?

He's basically out on his feet What are you doing? And again, we all know how tough ties to Fury is, but like I'm, I'm not a huge fan of the automatic rematches unless something weird or funky. Like if there's like a controversial card

like we had would better be Evan Bivel. That was a kind of a controversial card on a lot of people's eyes so I could see doing it again. Yeah. And I know that the, the decision in Fury Euse was closer than I think it should have been. I thought it was a bad, like there's a couple rounds

that I'm like, what are you looking at? But I don't think anyone. was like, ooh, Usik barely beat him, or Usik didn't deserve that decision. I think sometimes guys, I almost feel like guys sometimes need almost a confidence boost before going back in there. You know, Fury is going back in there six months later. And I'm like, I don't know what's going to change in that six months. Like, I remember, you remember this, Matt, going back to M.MA.

When Ginger Dos Santos knocked out Kane Velasquez in kind of shocking fashion did like a minute flat, remember that, the first ever Fox card. And it was, oh, my God, he beat him. they rematch the year later and Kane just beat the absolute breaks off him and then did it a third time and it's like oh okay he caught him I'm not taking away Junior's win

but like he caught him and that's what that happens like you know what I mean and when we saw them fight longer we saw what happened King just absolutely demolished the next two times they fought I just it wasn't that like he didn't get caught he didn't you know it wasn't a controversial decision

like he got beat thoroughly for the majority of that a fight. Did he win some rounds? Sure, but, you know, no one walked away from that fight thinking, man, Fury got robbed. Right. You know, and I don't know what is that much different six months later. Well, as I'm saying, I don't know. I'm not sure exactly what Fury can change to win this fight. And on top of that, you know, Fury is another guy. Like, I don't really know where he's at in his career now, right? Like, in a very close fight with Ngano, right? And then, and then

Usick, Losson, and then, you know, I just question whether he's really at the top of his game still, right? And boxing is worse than MMA, right? Like, you don't, you know, that drop-off is usually a lot more significant. And so it's going to be a tough. I'm definitely going to be watching it. Like, I'm excited to watch it. I absolutely give Fury a chance, right? Like, he's still a great heavyweight.

But I just, I don't see him beating Usik. I mean, Usoc is just too skilled. and again, like, you kind of know what you're getting with Usik every time, right? Like, he's kind of fought the same way for a very long time, even in the amateur. So I think you kind of know what you're going to get. And Fury's been a little bit, like, up and down, and he's kind of been down lately. So I get you got to go with Ustick on it. Yeah, if you notice, like you talk about, like, the drop-off in boxing is pretty steep.

It's true because if you look at a lot of great boxers, the end of their career ends up being like two or three losses in a row, and then they stop fighting. like it's just like it just it's almost like you lose it and it never comes back in boxing it kind of seems to be the way to say and by the way i'm not saying phuery's lost it i mean but still like i know like again we said going into the ingano fight he should be able to like just he should be able to sit on his couch each twinkies drink beer and show up and still be able to out box a guy who has literally never boxed before and he didn't he i mean i guess he won but it was way closer than

ever should have been and then you know he got he got boxed up pretty good by Usik. Like I was again and Usik again is, I mean, that's like apples to oranges comparing Usik to fucking Ngano and boxing. But yeah, I just, again, I don't know, like, if you're asking me, like, what can Fury do differently? I don't know, like put bricks in his gloves. Like, I'm not sure

what else he's going to do. It's like, he's suddenly going to be that much better than Olegsander Usik. Yeah, and I said, I thought he looked good in the first fight. So, you know, so he's, I don't know, I'm sure they're watching tons of video and they're going to see things that he can improve on. You know, rematches are always interesting, I guess, especially in boxing, where,

you know, you're going to find little details here and there, like, oh, I should just, you know, put my hand here instead of there and, you know, little feints and stuff. So that, I think it'll make it kind of interesting. But again, I just think Ucic's the better fighter, man. I think Usyk's amazing, and I think he's going to be a tough guy to beat. I think the way to be Ucic is you really got to stay in his face and you got to, you, you, you know, you, you, you, you, You can't let them dance around, just like Loma Chinco. You got to stay in there and you got to tie them up a lot, you know, not let him dance. You got to keep the pressure on them.

And it's not really furry style. So I think it's going to be a tough fight for him. You got to be like a Better Beave who is just after you, the entire fight. Like that guy is just coming after you with just aggression from minute one to the end. Yeah. Very, very skilled aggression too, not wild aggression. Yeah. And didn't use it.

Didn't you say better be having us. train together so are they come under the same or no that's lo Machinko sorry lo Machinko yeah so yeah but better be like that style as a heavyweight but i don't know there's anyone that's really going to do that right now so um yeah yeah like i said i'm with this do you think that is there a world where he stops him this time or do you think it's decision yeah i don't think you really know you know they're both good enough that you ain't kind of anything could happen um in terms of uh you know stoppages and tkos and stuff if you know you You know, Fuchsick's able to land those big shots again like he did last time.

You know, it could certainly happen. I'd imagine Fury is going to make some adjustments and not get caught with his many big shots. But, you know, it's like, you know, you got to do it on that night too, right? You got to be on your game. You know, my big thing is I just don't know Fury still. You know, I think a few years ago this may have been a different fight. The first fight may have been different. I just don't think Fury is what he once was.

I don't know how old he is. like he's got to be getting up there. Yeah, he's up there a little bit. Let me look. Let's see here. Tyson Fury is 36. Yeah, he's 36. Yeah, getting up there for boxers.

So yeah, I just, I agree. I think Usses is going to win. But like I said, I'm excited for it because I love the first fight. First fight was like the atmosphere and just like, you know, Fury's a showman, you know, so it's kind of fun because UcSuk's not really a talk or anything. But, yeah, it's a true. tremendous fight. And it's so weird, too, because, like, if Ussig beats Fury, like, I guess he fights Daniel Dubois, I think. I know Daniel and Dubois is a fightery book for next year,

but, like, because Dubois knocked out Joshua, so it's like, I don't know how much injuries there would have been in a third fight with Joshua anyways. He already beat Joshua twice. So it's like, it's weird because this is, this is the biggest heavyweight fight you could book right now, but it's like, where do you go from here if you're Usig? Like, because, you know, I mean, Joshua's not the guy right now. And I like Daniel Dubois. I, I actually met Daniel, dude, while he fought on the, I think he fought on the undercard of the fucking Jake Paul, Tyre Woodley Card, if I'm not mistaken. I was at that fight. I met him.

Good fighter. I just, I don't know that anyone pegged him as like being the guy, you know, like when he beat Joshua. I was like, what the fuck? So I don't know. Like, I don't know. But, you know, that's heavyweight boxing, though. Someone's always coming up. Yeah.

Yeah. There'll be another guy who knows who it's going to be. Because, like you said, there's not anybody like sticking out right now in heavyweight boxing. and that's kind of the downside, right? We had our different guys sticking out for the last few years with Fury, Wilder, Joshua. I even thought Ortiz was going to be really good, even though he's probably like 50 years old. But there's, at least as far as I've been following, there's not anybody sticking out. We're like, oh, that's going to be the guy that's going to give him a challenge.

But you know what? As we talked about before, man, people love heavy weights. There's always going to be interest. It's weird. Like, you know, you put Inouye on TV and people like, eh, you know, all right, whatever. You put Tyson Fury on there. Oh, Tyson Fury, heavyweight. So, yeah, it's nature of the beast.

Last thing, I'm not going to spend any time on this. I just want to get your opinion on this, Matt, real quick, where we get out of here. Over the weekend, I don't know if you saw this at the UFC Tampa Post-Fight Press or Dana White was answering questions and then going through the typical, you know, post-fight stuff. And somebody asked him about Aspinall and Jones. And they asked him if that's, like, his most, like the fight he most wants for 20-25. but then they said like how confident are you it's going to happen would you guarantee it and Dana said 100% guaranteed we're going to get Jones aspirin now I don't know that that Dana's talked to Jones yet I don't I probably imagine they probably haven't like Jones is kind of you

fights and kind of slips away does that increase your confidence at all Matt that we're going to get that fight next year now that Dana has now said 100% guarantee we're going to see Jones versus is Aspinall. Yeah, absolutely. It increases my confidence. I think, you know, Dana has the means to make it happen. And so if he's going to guarantee it, you know, he can get it done. We know that.

Whether it actually happens, you know, I'm not convinced still 100%, right? But if Dana wants it to happen, he can make it happen. We know that. It's going to come down to John, right? And I think that's really what the question is going to be. like, is John going to accept Dana's terms? Just like Jones and Ghanu a few years ago and Jones wanted Deontay Wilder money. Remember that whole thing?

You wanted $30 million or whatever, and Dana's like, you're insane. They didn't pay it. As you said, Dana can wave his magic wand or, in better terms, sign the magic checkbook, and he could make the fight happen. You know what I mean? Like, he can offer John an amount of money that John would be like, okay, let's go. Dana's saying I 100% guarantee it. It makes me things like he's ready right.

Because, you know, we were talking last year about the whole Connor or this year about the whole Conner thing. Like, is Conner's delay due to the TV deal? Like, they're trying to make sure they still have Connor locked up going into this new TV deal. Now, I kind of did. I kind of discounted that because I'm like, dude, they're killing it without Connor. They don't really need Connor right now. They haven't had Connor since 2021 and they've been absolutely killing it.

But if you can tell a TV partner, watch what we can do with Jones and Jones Aspinall this year, which would be the biggest fight, I think, of, you know, of 2025. That's a little bit of leverage. You'd be like, oh, look at the numbers we did here. Now you want to put up another $5 billion or whatever. So Dana's saying, I guarantee it, kind of got my attention. I'm like, all right, like, now you're putting, because now he's putting it back on himself to make it happen.

You know, he's not saying, like, if Jones is down, we'll do it. Or if Aspinall's down, we'll do it. No, he's saying, I guarantee we're going to do it. Yeah, which is a rare thing for Dana. to say, right? He doesn't always take the brunt of all that. Yeah, usually he's like, this guy's scared of this guy or whatever. He doesn't want to fight. So, yeah, you got to respect that, man. Hopefully he makes it happen. That's about all we can say, right? Because this is the fight to make. As much as we'd all love to see Jones Pereira, that's not the fight to make.

We know that's the money fight. The real fight is Jones-aspin-all. We're going to do, I think what we're going to do for our year end and then beginning in New Year's show. We did this last year. For the new year, we're going to go through our champions and kind of predict who we think is going to be champion at the end of the year. So I'll kind of be in January. But next week, we're going to do some of our categories, like our pick for five to the

year. But I'm going to preview our 2025 preview. Is Aspinall Jones the fight you most want to see? Like you're playing fantasy matchmaker right now for the UFC mat. Would that be the one you most want to see? Is there another one? Well, that's the one we're talking about. about right now so it definitely the first one that comes to mind i just got to have to think about it

for a minute because i can't think of another one off the top of my head that i'd want to see that much um yeah um yeah there nothing else is is popping up um yeah um yeah it's anything else even a contender for you in your head i mean i mean come i have been do blessings maybe like yeah i'm kind of like i would have said like i actually was excited for you and you're from Marab Umar, but we're getting that. So I don't really need to say that. It's already booked. Like, that's a good one.

But you look at the rest of the divisions, like, I want to see Pereira and Ancolaiav. Ancolaev's earned it. But am I like, oh, man, that's like, no, I'm not, you know, he deserves it, he earns it, but I don't know that I'm necessarily like that excited. We know we're getting Duplice and Strickland and I just, whatever. Yeah, I mean, honestly, like, when I go down the division,

I mean, like, I was to say the only other one would be like, you know, Deplessies gets past Strickland and fights Comiah of, like, Like that would be very anticipated. That would be a very interesting fight. Again, nothing else is really popping in my head where I'm like, damn, I really want to see that fight. Yeah, like, I'm excited for Islam and Armin, but even that one I'm not like, you know, it's not like the one. I'm just like, man, that's like, it's an incredible fight. But like, you know, it's still not like up and like, yeah.

And we already saw Teporia and Holloway. Like, Teporia, like he rematches Walkanowski. Like, I don't know. that's really i mean toporia lopez could be fun but again i'm not saying that would be like that would be better than jones aspinall and then yeah i mean i like pantosia but like yeah so i mean i don't really know another option adds to it too that this jones espinal fights kind of been the the one that's been slipping away right it's been talked about for so long and you know just hasn't really happened so um that kind of just adds to the anticipation the way jones looked in his last

fight just adds to it even more you're like oh he's not getting old like he's still out there doing insane things to people like it's nothing and the way Aspen always looked I mean just all the stars are aligned to make that happen and man I can't imagine the more exciting at least build up to you know

anticipation for a fight right I don't know how the buildup would be and all that but you know that that's it's a lock bro that's a pretty dead lock right there yeah that's the one I think that's absolutely the one so all right well we'll be we'll be doing like I said we're gonna do next week I think we're gonna go

through our categories for all the big awards, fighter of the year, fight of the year, you know, knock out of the year, all those kind of categories, kind of talk about our year and wrap up. And then we kick off 2025.

We'll kind of do our categories where we talk about, you know, who, what champion's going to be there at the end of the year? Those are always fun because I'm rarely right. Sometimes I kind of write by default

when I'm just like, well, Islam's the champion now. I'm still going to pick Islam at the end of the year. But like when you try to pick a new winner, man, it's tough because the fight's got to get made. And it's a rough one.

And you just know, I think I predicted Chimaia being a champion like three years in a row and he still never got a title shot. So you just never know. So we'll do a 2020 for my preview. Do you have written down our picks from last year to see how you were? I don't, but I will look it up. I will look it up for that episode to see how good or bad we did. I will see how good or bad we did last year because I think mine are pretty bad. I think I got like one right.

I think I got Islam. I think that might be the only one I got right that was still champion. All right. to see. Yeah, so we'll do that. Yeah, so obviously we'll be back next week, kind of wrap up 2024, and then we get ready for 2025. Matt, if people want to support you, check you out, where can they go? What can they do? At the, at I in the Immortal, Instagram, Twitter, the Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. That's all I got today. All right. Well, folks, we'll be back next week. We appreciate everyone that always tunes into the podcast. Make sure you check us out

on all of your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify, and of course over on the best website in the world, mMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I'm Damon Martin. We'll see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Writer. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then.