MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Says Ian Machado Garry Still Needs a ‘Signature Win,’ Argues Against Fighters Announcing Retirement Fights

Episode Date: April 29, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to the UFC Kansas City card and Ian Machado Garry calling for the next title shot following his win over Carlos Prates. Plus we’ll discuss Anthony Smith’s retirement fight and Brown explains why he’s against fighters making those kinds of announcements before calling it a career. We also discuss the pressure on Bo Nickal, Tom Aspinall waiting for Jon Jones and much more. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It was the night before the gathering and all through the house. The host rapid cozy cashmere throw from Home Sense for their spouse. Kids toys for $6.99 under the tree. And crystal glasses for just $14.99 for their brother Lee. A baking dish made in Portugal for Tom and Sue. And a nice $5.99 candle. Perfectly priced just for you. Happy holidays to all.

And to all a good price. Home Sense. Endless presents perfectly priced. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Back to the fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown and Matt. We are back from another weekend of fights. And we got another weekend of fights coming up.

We got a world where Jake Paul thinks fighting Julio Cesar Chavez is the same thing as Patty Pimbleau fighting Michael Chandler. It's a crazy world we're living in today, bro. Wait, what? I didn't hear about this. I just saw it. I just saw some social media, so I had to bring it up. because I know you're a big Jake Paul fan. He, he, because there's been a lot of criticism about him fighting Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.

You know, Chavez is 39. I think we all know where he's at in his career. But Jake Paul literally said, he's like, this guy is a former cruise weight champion, which he wasn't. He never won a cruiserweight title. But that's neither heard or there. He said he's the same age as Michael Chandler. He's like, I didn't hear anyone complaining when Patty Pimbley beat Michael Chandler, yet Michael Chandler is the same age as Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.

So everyone should just shut up. And I'm just like, I thought my brain was going to explode. I was like, am I having an aneurysm right now? Because I'm not saying, listen, we've had our criticisms of Michael Chandler on this show. We've talked about it very openly at where he's at in his career. He's not Chavez Jr. in his career by any stress of the imagination, man. Yeah, I don't think he does a lot of cocaine. Like, dude, just take the loss.

Like, I'm not saying you're going to lose the fight. He's clearly going to win the fight. But like, just live with it, man. You made the decision to fight Chavez. he's clearly not anywhere remotely near his prime. And even in his prime, he wasn't like the best boxer in the world. Like he was always kind of one of those guys who, and you are the boxing expert.

Please correct him wrong. But Chavez Jr. was always kind of like the guy who got, seemed to get by on his name more than his accomplishments. Am I right about that? Oh, for sure, for sure. But he was a good boxer, though. He just didn't put in the time or the work, you know? I mean, he just didn't, you know, he was a spoiled kid.

It was very clear. Like, you know, if you watch the countdown shows or, I don't know, whatever, they call him 24-7 with HBO or whatever. I mean, he was just a spoiled kid that, you know, grew up soft, right, completely different than his father and lived off his name. But it's a solid win for Jake Paul to go in there and beat him. I mean, how many fights he has you have now, nine or ten? 10 or 11, I think. Here's my problem, though, is like Chavez. I mean, but Chavez is, dude, Chavez was just fighting Uriah Hall last year.

and like it was a bad fight. He lost to Anderson Silva like four years ago. And that was like that was four years ago. I mean, I'm just saying like I'm not, I'm not criticizing. I just, Jake, do the fight. I'm fine with the fight. But don't try to justify it. Like, don't try to sell us on like this is like a legitimate opponent.

Like, come on. No, you're right there. Yeah. But, you know, Chavez in his prime, if he actually had one. I don't know if we ever got to see his actual prime because I think he was just partying and chilling too much, you know. But I think like at his best, I think he could have been a good boxer. I don't know if he'd been a great.

He certainly would have been his father. That's for sure. But I think he could have been a pretty good boxer. But again, I still think we ever even seen as prime, to be honest. Like, I think he just partied and was a spoiled kid. But look, for where Jake Paul is in his career, you know, if you compare Jake to like regular boxers, like this is a proper fight for him. Like this is where he should be fighting. Yeah.

And like I said, I don't have a problem with the fight. Just don't try to sell me that it's like this legitimate. You know what I mean? But you know Jake Paul, he's always going to say some shit, you know, always. Like we could have this conversation. If we just followed him every day, we can have this conversation every day. Yeah, I just rolled my eyes so hard at the comparison to Patty and Michael Chandler. I'm like, come on.

Like, again, take the fight, beat Chavez, all good. And you're not wrong. Like at that point in his career, fighting a guy like this at 11 and over whatever, or 11 and 1 or whatever. record is it's okay it's fine again but don't try to sell me on this being the same thing as patty pimble and Michael Chandler like good Lord like you are really you're you are what do the Diaz brothers say you are selling us some wolf tickets

Jake Paul I know right shit right I do see I see where he's coming from at least like I see a similarity but yeah Chavez and Chandler two completely different monsters yeah for sure a very different beast but I get the comparison right like you know older guys you know, on their way out of their careers. And, yeah, I mean, I guess he could make an argument here. If he were here talking with us right now, I think he'd have an argument.

You can make an argument that Chavez probably should have stopped fighting about four years ago. So, you know, just not. Totally. So, yeah, that probably shouldn't have ever fought and just lived off his dad's cash, too. Yeah. Did you get a chance to watch UFC, Kansas City this weekend?

A couple of good fights or a couple good knockouts on there. I know we talked beforehand with the, Anthony Smith situation. Of course, Ian Machado Gary going out there getting the job done against Carlos Prattis. So it was a pretty solid event. It wasn't amazing, but it was pretty good. Yeah, the Machado Prattos fight was really good, actually. I thought

and, you know, Prattos brought some energy late and made Ian Machado or tested Ian Machado Gary there at the end. So I thought it was a pretty solid fight. I still got to go back and watch Anthony's fight. It doesn't look from what I've read is something I necessarily want

to watch, you know, because I love it. I love it. I love Anthony Smith and, you know, I think the sport is all going to miss him. But, yeah, you know, I was interested, very interested in that process, Gary fight. I think that's a, I've said it before, man. I think Gary has a lot of championship qualities, man. You know, he's constantly, as we watch him go throughout his career, there's, he constantly gives us questions. But I think if he is able to answer those questions, or is able to rectify those questions, I should say.

I still think he's got that quality about him, and I still think that he's got it in him. He looked really good on Saturday. I think, you know, protests came back late, and you could argue that protest should have tried to push down, and matched down the gas pedal earlier.

It seemed like he was just kind of sleepwalking through the first couple of rounds. Like, he just wasn't really throwing any strikes, and maybe it was the nerves of being in a five-round fight for the first time, and he'd never really gone past round two in the UFC. But once he got going, he looked good, and he definitely had, you know, Ian in some trouble late, but, you know, he couldn't quite get it done.

But before that, I mean, Ian was putting on a master class. He was just out striking him and just moving, and he had the perfect game plan. I know, again, people are going to talk about the ending, but, I mean, that's fighting, you know, like, that's the same. It reminds me of Leon Edwards and Nate Diaz. Like, Leon Edwards beats Nate Diaz from side to side from round one through round four, but then he gets clipped in the fifth round and, you know, gets damaged. And everyone's like, oh, my God, Neil Edwards won the fight.

Nate did almost win the fight late, but he was getting beat up on for four rounds, but that's not what we remember. But I thought he and Gary look good. I guess so after the fight, I don't know if you saw this or not Matt, like he had talked about, he basically told the UFC, if I take this fight on short notice, I want to be the backup fighter for Bilal Mohammed and Jack Della Madelana. And they granted him that wish. Now, to be fair, being the backup fighter doesn't really guarantee you anything. There's no, you know, it's not written in stone that you're going to get anything. He's made it very clear.

He believes he should get a title shot. But the reality is, Matt, you know, you got Shab Katak-Rek-Banoff out there. It's unfortunate he got injured, but he still is seemingly the number one contender. And while it was close, he did get a win over Ian Gary. You got Sean Brady out there who just mauled Leon Edwards and submitted him, becoming the first person to ever finish him. I know you are, and I'm not saying this in a bad way. I'm saying, like, you've been at Ian Machado Gary Backer for a while,

saying you believe he has that absolute championship mentality and that quality. And I tend to agree with you. you. But looking at the lay of the land right now, and I know we got to wait for Bilal and Jack to play out because a lot can change depending on who wins that fight. But just based on Bilal Muhammad being champion right now, who should be the number one contender at Welchway? Does Ian Gary have a legitimate argument, or are we just playing that game? Like, he just got a big win. And so, like, he's kind of talking himself up right now. Yeah, I don't think it's Ian Machado, you and Machado Gary for sure. But, you know, he still doesn't have that signature win, right? Like

something to say like I am a number one contender whereas like you could argue Sean Brady does right he beaten finishing Leon Edwards you know that's a signature win right there saying look I'm I'm here and and I'm worthy of a title contender at least but you know if somehow Belaw was to fall off like Jack Madelena is a great matchup for Ian Gary actually I think that that's a really really good matchup whereas below i kind of feel like he's a bad matchup for either guy to be honest just keeping it real right i just think he's going to be a tough guy for either of them to beat but um who was the third person we we had in that combo there shop cat yeah shopcott yeah shopcott yeah which who's injured right so he's i mean he's the clear number one contender i think

yeah i i agree and i think that like if i was if i was if i was ranking them right now i would probably put in those three i'd probably put ean third not because he's not a good fight him but you know again he did he did come close to beating um shavka but almost doesn't count like you can't you can't live on a loss you still got a loss and while carlos prachas had all the hype around him in the world he looked incredible through his first few fights i think he was ranked 13th like you're not you can't you can't push for a title shot when you when you're lost and then come back and beat the number 13 guy if he'd come back and beat sean brady or beating you know shavkat or you know whatever like one of those big wins sure but

And by the way, just to be clear about this, I like Ian Gary. I think I agree with you. I think he's absolutely got that championship medal to him. But right now, like, Sean Brady, what's holding Sean Brady back is he lost to Bilau. He got knocked out by Bilau. But since then, he's looked incredible. And as you said, he now has that signature win. He did what even Below couldn't do.

He finished Leon Edwards. That's a pretty big feather in his cap. So, like, you could even say, I could justify a rematch for Sean Brady because of what he did to Leon Edwards. And of course, Shabkat is clearly the number one guy. The only thing holding Shabkat back right now is just, is he injured when's he going to come back? But if I had to rank them, honestly, I'd have to put Ian third in that list. Yeah, it's a tough situation for Ian because he's doing all the right things, right? You know, just couldn't finish or you just couldn't get it done versus Shopcott. That was a, that's his only kind of mistake that he's made, if you want to call it

mistake. He just couldn't get it done, right? So he's doing all the right things, right? He should be putting his name on that, on that list. We're talking about it right now. That's what he should be doing, and he's doing a good job of it. And he, I just, again, I think he just needs that signature win. He needs another top five, you know, top six, seven guy, someone to say that justify his position. And realistically, if he were to do that, he could justify a position probably better than Shavcott. Yeah. If I, If I'm Ian Gary in this position I'm in right now, you're not going to get the Shavkat rematch because it just wouldn't make sense right away.

I'd be calling out Sean Brady because Sean Brady's technically ranked number one right now. He's over Shafkat even because he beat Leon Edwards. I would call Sean Brady even if you don't get the fight, like show your willingness. Because when I talked to Sean Brady after his win, he said that he believes he's the number one contender. He believes he should get a title shot. But he also told me, hey, if you're not going to give me the title shot, you want to me to fight Shavkat, I'll take Shavkat, give me Shavkat. Now that, to me it's like a strong statement. You're not just saying I'm going to sit and wait, I'm only

going to get a title fight. You're saying, give me the guy that everyone thinks is the number one contender, the boogeyman in the division. Give me that guy, and I'll fight him and prove that I'm the number one contender. I think that's kind of where Ian Gary needs to go right now. Like, we appreciate him stepping in a short notice. It is a quality win over Carlos protest, but as you said, like, he doesn't have that moment where we're like, man, And he just went out there and finished his, I'm not knocking it, but his claim right now is almost like he almost finished Shabkat. Like that's his biggest claim, not that he went out there and beat somebody.

So I agree. And I think like calling out, even if you don't get Sean Brady, call out Sean Brady. He's kind of like the guy right now. He's on a big win streak. He just tapped out the former champion. Call out that guy. And stylistically, you would imagine, Sean Brady is the best possible guy he could fight to get ready for a Bala Muhammad because Sean has that heavy grappling style as well.

I'd be calling him out. Like, that would be my move. Yeah, I think that's a solid move. The other kind of X factor and all this, I don't know if he has a fight coming up, but if I'm Ian Gary, I'm looking to fight Buckley, I think that's a much better matchup for him overall.

Does he have a fight coming up, though? Buckley's fighting Kamar Usman in June. They just announced it a couple days ago, so that's a good one. That's a really good fight. Yeah, that's a really good fight. I was going to say Uspan would be the other one, potentially call out. call out the winner. I think they're fighting June 14th, so it's not that far after the title fight. It's about a month later, you know what I mean? So call out the winner of that then. All I'm saying is, while I understand the argument that Ian's making that he did step up and help the UFC out, and he's going to serve as the backup in Montreal. And listen, the reality is timing and opportunity to just happen with Jack Delah Madelena. He wasn't going to get a title shot. Shabcock gets injured. He gets the shot to fight for the title. So again, outside of like those circumstances, meaning like Balala,

booked in October and Shab Katz injured again and Ian gets the shot that way. Just in terms of merit, you just can't, you can't justify an Ian Gary title shot at this second. Again, outside of an injury or just a weird timing thing. Yeah, I totally agree. Again, he's doing all the right things. And how it plays out is going to be interesting. But there's not a ton of fights out.

there for him, right? Like, he's got to be, hopefully he's thinking about, I'm sure he is, thinking about his next move. I think it's a great call out to try to be the backup. I think it's a good call for him. But there's not a ton of options, right? So he's got to get, like you say, the winner of Buckley and Usman or, you know, getting a rematch with Shavcott is going to be pretty unlikely, right? You know, so Sean Brady, you're kind of left right there, right? And, personally, I think it's kind of a bad matchup for Ian. You know, that's kind of a, it's probably the one that he's like, I don't really want to call that guy out.

Like, you know, he's a warrior, I'm sure, will fight him. But I don't see him, you know, sitting in his room thinking, you know, kind of strategizing all this being like, dude, that's a guy to call out. You know, that's the guy I'm going to beat easy, you know? So it puts me in a little bit of a tough position because that's really the only call out that there is. Can I, real quick before we move on, you mentioned signature win, and I agree. And signature win to me means impressive win, not just a win.

Impress, like, again, right now, I think the biggest argument that Ian has is that he took Shavkat to the brink, but he still lost. When I think a signature win, I think of going out there. And again, we know that knocking a guy out is not as easy to just say I'm a knock a guy out. It doesn't happen that way. But to have that moment where, again, what Sean Brady just did, what Sean Brady did to Leon Edwards, he has that moment now. He said, I just tapped out to former champion, a guy who had never been finished before. That's a big feather in his cap. And a month or two months from now, if Joaquin Buckley can go out and knock out Oosman or Ousman knocks out Buckley,

they're going to have an argument to say, hey, I just beat the rising contender. I just beat a former champion. If Ian had gone out there and just knocked out or finished protest, I'm not saying his argument would be better, but he would have that on his record. So when you say signature win, that's kind of what we're saying, right? It's not just winning, it's doing it in a way that is impressive enough to where we have something to talk about afterwards. And also higher-ranked competition, because as good as protest was and as much as we like protests, he was still like 13 or 14 in the world. He wasn't like a top-five guy.

And that's my biggest issue with, you know, Ian calling out or fighting Sean Brady. It would be a signature win if he's able to go do it. But it's hard to imagine that that's not a grinding, difficult, you know, ugly win. right? It's hard to imagine that being a clean, you know, make you look great win. Like, Sean's going to be pretty good at making you look bad. Yeah. What, Ian, the problem that

is going to have is the fights that would make the most sense that would give him a chance to really shine would be Leon Edwards, who is now coming off a loss or a couple losses, or Jack Delamattelina, who's about to fight for the title. Those are strikers, guys that would give him a chance to kind of go out there in style a little bit, show his style a little bit. I don't know that you're really going to do

that against Sean Brady. So he's kind of in a tough spot. I get it. He can keep calling for it and you should. You should always call for it because you never know what's going to happen. But realistically, if I'm ranking him, I go Shavkat 1 unless he's just going to be out for a really extended period of time or Sean Brady because what he just did to Leon Edwards. And I put Ian kind of third. So if I'm Ian, like, I'm looking. I'm being the backup for the title fight. I'm even staying ready just in case if Buckley or Usman falls out. Maybe I stay ready for June and just hope. And then you kind of got to let the cards play out and maybe you get a shot based

on timing, but just based on merit, it's not Ian Machado, Gary. Yeah, it's just a tough position. And ultimately, the UFC's going to decide what happens anyway. So, you know, he's going to be fighting a top five, top 10 guy. It's going to be interesting to see how it all plays out. But, yeah, I hope that, again, I think he's got all the potential. Hopefully, he gets to fight a guy like Sean Brady for a title, right? If I'm his manager, I'm like, dude, let's hold that fight off for a title.

let's wait until, you know, we've already got where we want to get and then take that risk. But at this point, that's a tough risk to take. Yeah, it absolutely is. It absolutely is. I know you didn't see the fight, but I did want to kind of give some flowers to Anthony Smith. He had his retirement fight on Saturday. And, you know, the fight basically ended up with, he got elbowed in the head by Zhang Ming Yang, had a giant cut blood just absolutely gushing pouring down his face.

And he got basically, he tried to go for a take-down. blocked and then Zhang Ming Yang just unloaded elbows and punches and they stopped the fight. And I said on Twitter afterwards, I said, this is a cruel sport. That's the reality. Like, we can count on one hand, two hands probably, the amount of guys who have gone out standing versus guys who have gone out on their backs in the retirement fight. And I said, no one understands that better than Anthony Smith. Like everyone's like, oh, man, kind of bum me out.

He went out that way. That's the nature of this beast. I know you've talked about it. You've said this sport is a cruel bitch. and when you had your final fight, you didn't know at the time was your final fight. Now, I'm sure looking back, you're like, man, I'm glad I had that nasty knock of a court McGee, and that was my final fight.

But the reality is, Robbie Lawler had that kind of moment where he retired. He said, I'm retiring, and he went out there and had that big winner. And Nico Price that everyone remembers it. But nine times out of 10, it's Shogun getting knocked out by Ihor, Pataria. It's Anthony Smith getting finished by Zhang Ming-in. Is that just, I mean, I said it. Again, I want you to weigh in.

Matt, because you're a fighter, you're a legend, you know the sport. I said, no one understands that that's just the nature of the sport better than Anthony Smith. Like, I'm sure we're all kind of sad, like, oh, man, you don't want to see your guy go out like that. But Anthony knows that's just the nature of this beast. Yeah, it really is. And unfortunately, I mean, that's the game that we're playing, you know. And that's what the UFC's meant to be is the Super Bowl, right? They don't always live up to that with like CM Punk mishaps and shit.

But for the most part, right, it is the Super Bowl. of MMA and you know Dana has said it before and I actually agree with them you know if you're already thinking about it like you should just stop now something along those lines you know and that's why I'm not such a fan of guys you know kind of planning their retirement fight even though I get it you know and some guys you know like Robbie Lawler they handle it well and still go out there and get it done but I think when you're already got a foot out the door you know you're

probably going to be fighting a guy with two feet in the door. So it's going to be a problem. And this sport, you know, UFC hit and it has a had anyone die from a fight that I know of. But like it happens. Like our life is truly on the line in there.

And I don't think that it's a good thing to go in with the foot in the door, which was a part of my retirement. I was like, bro, if I got a foot out, like I'm not going to go in there where the guy would both feet in. Like that's a, you're, risking a lot there, especially when you got kids and stuff.

Yeah, it's funny you say that because I never really thought about it that way, but I guess you're right. Like, if you're saying, I'm going to retire after this fight, you're already kind of half in, half out in a way. So are you really going in there putting your full effort and are you going into to kill the guy, or you're just going into to have that kind of cool moment to say I'm on my way out? And like I said, of all the guys who have announced their retirement or girls who announce their retirement fight beforehand, the vast majority have lost.

Now, again, Robbie Lawler is the kind of the exception to the, rule in the moment we all kind of remember and say, man, what a cool moment. But by and large, more of the Anthony Smith exits have happened or more of the Michelle Waterson when she had her retirement fight like a year and a half ago where she got pretty brutally beat down and then retired afterwards. Like that is the vast majority of people when they announce that retirement fight. I never really thought about that way. But I guess if you are retiring, you could say, like, I'm going to leave everything in the cage.

But isn't, are you already kind of out of the cage before you start? Right, right. It's just a different mentality, you know, and you can absolutely go in, you know, I'm going to leave it all in there as my last time and everything. But the guy you're fighting isn't thinking that way. Like, he's in there, you know, thirsty for blood, right? And he's in there to try to get to a championship,

and he's in there to make money and all this shit. You know, the old saying, and it comes from boxing is, you know, you walk up the stairs in wooden shoes and you walk down the stairs in silk slippers. and that's kind of what you're seeing in these kind of situations, right? We've got other things going on. We got, we have, you know, making money in other ways, you know, our brands out there,

the names out there. And it's like, this isn't your full focus anymore. You know, and again, some guys can handle that properly and they don't, they don't necessarily, right? Like John Jones, I don't think he has to have both feet in the door to be out there, you know, legendarily beating other legends. Like, he just doesn't have to. Most of us, we have to. So, yeah, I've never really been too big of a fan of that.

But, you know, again, Prop St. Anthony Smith, man, for a great career. Love the guy. And I'll watch the fight, I guess, at some point when it comes across. I'm just not too excited to watch my friend get beat up like it. Yeah, I appreciate that insight because I never really would have thought about that way. But now that you've said that, I like, yeah, I kind of agree with your point. because if you're going in there saying this in my last fight, you're already kind of, you're already kind of, you know, the door's open.

You're not, you're not, you know, you're not kicking the door open. It's already kind of open halfway and you're just waiting to walk through it after the fight. So I know Jim Miller's told me that before, too. Jim Miller's like, I want to have my retirement fight. I want to leave everything in there that last final time. I want to know going in. I know some guys do it for accountability to, like, say, like, I'm doing it ahead of time so I don't come back.

But that rarely stops them from coming back. So, yeah, you make. that point of like I guess that is kind of like maybe maybe even don't voice it even like just do it afterwards and not really voice it like just you know maybe and maybe in the back if you're thinking about in the back of your head probably as you said probably shouldn't be fighting anyways but yeah and the fact is too when like you said don't voice it like when you do start voicing it or you are even having that thought in your mind you know it is like you're again you're going in against a guy that is in a completely different mindset mode for the most part right

I mean, I'm sure there's some guys who just fight just a fight or whatever. But like most likely, like you're going in there against a guy thirsty for blood and wants to make money. You know, and wants all those big things. If that's not where your mindset is, like you're going to be a step behind. It's just a fact. I don't think there's any way to, I don't think you can say it any differently. Like you're going to be a step behind, you know, when that guy is thirsty for everything. and you're kind of like, yeah, this is my last time.

I'm going to leave it all in here, but are you really? You know, and like, what are you leaving it all in there for, for your fucking legacy or something? It's like, you know, like this guy's leaving it all in there because he wants to move up, right? You're leaving it all in there so that you feel cool and, you know, feel like you did a great thing or whatever. Like your motivation is just completely different. It's just not a good mindset in my opinion.

Yeah, no, I agree. Now you've said that. I never really thought about it that way, but that's actually really, really smart. And you're absolutely right when you're thinking about it that way. And I know Dana says, like, when you start thinking about it, you probably should just walk away. You know, like almost. There is another side to that, too, because I think after every single one of my best camps, like, I started thinking about it, about two or three weeks out. And I'm, I'm like, bro, I ain't fucking doing this shit ever again.

So there is another side. Like, I think it's probably not uncommon. I don't know if I'm an anomaly here. but at least for me, I thought about retiring all fucking time. You have a bad day in the gym. You're like, dude, what the fuck am I doing this shit for? You know, but then, you know, I worked with a lot of sports psychologists and stuff. And, you know, and that's about defining your purpose and defining your why and what are you doing this for.

And, you know, those are the days when you go back to that shit and you remind yourself, why am I doing this? And because you're good, it's natural to have those questions at sometimes, especially, again, like two, three weeks out and you're starting to feel the Cal, the calorie deficit kicking in really hard, but you still got another fucking 20 pounds to go. And you come in home and you can't barely walk. And, you know, your kids are over there wanting you to play football. And you're like, fuck, do I have to? You know, it's just the things start piling up in the stress and things start piling up. When I got a great deal on a great gift at winners, I started wondering, could I get fabulous

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And with live TV, I'm not missing the game. It's kind of like I'm already on vacation. Nice. Air Canada. Nice travels. Wi-Fi available to Aero plan members on equipped flights, sponsored by Bell. Conditions apply. See AirCanada.com. Yeah, 100%. You mentioned real quick, you mentioned John Joneson there. You were saying like, you know, some guys could probably go and one foot out the door, still kill somebody because it's John Jones. I don't know if you saw over the weekend, Tom Aspinall, his dad was basically complaining about the delay waiting for the John Jones fight. Like, we don't know what's going on.

Why are we waiting for this guy? And by all accounts, I don't think it's going to happen on international fight week. That's now basically a month and a half away or about two months away. And we know John Jones, like he would already be in a training camp right now if he was fighting on June. So kind of imagine that's not happening in June. My guess, someone mentioned this over the weekend. I kind of agree.

Someone's like, it's going to be November. It's going to be MSG. It's going to be New York. That's kind of like John Jones' backyard now. He fought there last year. I know Tom is frustrated, and I get it, because he's been out even longer. Remember, he beat Curtis Blades last July, and he's been out now. I mean, it's coming up on a year where he's been out.

But if I'm Tom Aspinall, like, I'm not saying he shouldn't be unhappy that these delays are happening. And I'm not saying he doesn't have a right to be. upset that he's waiting for John Jones, but you made it pretty clear you only want John Jones, you want the undisputed title. And the UFC's not going to strip John Jones. As long as John Jones has a chance of coming back, they're not going to do that because they know that'll just piss him off and he won't come back. If you're Tom Aspin, I'm like, do you have to just kind of like, just, I'm not saying

he should stay quiet, but more just like, just roll with the punches, man. Like if you want to fight John Jones, you're probably going to wait until November. And you can't really complain about it because they're not going to give you an undisputed title against Cyril Gone. They're not going to do that. If you're going to fight Cyril Gone, you're going to fight it for your interim title and you're still going to be waiting for John Jones. So I'm not saying he shouldn't voice his upset.

His anger, he absolutely can. But, like, this is what you signed up for. You know John Jones is not going to operate on your clock. Yeah, what a tough position. I'm not sure what the answer is there, right? He's just a tough position. He's in, like, if I were Tom Aspinall, like, I would do, like, kind of the same that I told I said about Michael Chandler.

stop waiting and go fight you know it's in the contracts for the ufc they have to offer you a fight i think it's every six months or some shit like that um like he like he can go get a fight you know unfortunately it may not be john jones but keep yourself out like you go win a big fight um you know now it it just solidifies things even more right like it just pushes your name out there more you know i understand you not wanting to do that i totally get it puts him in a tough position either way. So how he's handling it is, you know, kind of his own, it's up to him, right? He can handle however he wants. That's how I'm saying, like, I would handle it. Of course, if he were to go out and lose, you know, it's a big risk, right? He goes and loses and it

fucks up everything. But look, you know, this is the situation that you're in and you just kind of have to deal with it, you know? It's just the dollar is to it. It sucks. And I'm not even saying he's wrong for being frustrated because I understand he absolutely has that right to be out frustrated but there are certain guys in the sport you know for the longest time it was Connor when Connor said hey I want to fight on this date and this time everyone just kind of

march to the beat his drum because he's kind of a bigger now that is kind of past I'm not to worry we are not getting on this subject but like he announced last week he's like I'll come back but I want a stadium show and I want this and that and the reaction was just like we don't care dude like just stay away don't fight and I was like

wow how far we have come when Connor used to announce fights and everyone's like let's go Connor and now they're like we don't even care anymore um but Connor was that guy Connor can be like I want to fight on this day this time this location and and everyone would kind of march to the beat of that drum I'm not saying he ever did I don't think he was really a demanding guy but you could say like during his heyday George St. Pierre probably had a little bit of that power where he's like I want to fight Montreal I want to do this I want to do that in our sport today there's probably that one person who can who can do that and has that power

and it's John Jones and so like it or not you're marching to his drum you don't have to like it you don't have to say I'm a fan of it and I hate waiting you can be upset as you can absolutely do that but the UFC knows they got one maybe two fights left in John Jones at most and he is still

a cash cow he is still the greatest co-fiter of all time they're not going to they're not going to push him and that's why Dana if you notice Dana will call out guys like hey you know this guy's avoiding this fight he'll kind of push that public agenda. You notice he's doing none of that with John Jones. He's like, we're going to get this

done. I'm confident we're going to get this done. It's going to happen. Don't worry. He's not saying bad things about John Jones because it's almost like John Jones is in a position now where we're talking about retirement. He can just be like, you know what? Fuck all of y'all. I'm walking away. And that's it. So I think that like I understand

Tom's position, but again, you're in a situation now where John like it or not is calling the shots. Yeah, and it's, I'll tell you what is really, I don't know how much you really want to get into it, but if you look at like the lawsuit and kind of what they're trying to change, particularly with the new lawsuit, the second one, not the Lee lawsuit, which was about money, but the second one, the Johnson, that's specifically what they're trying to fix is things like this, right? if it were a sanctioning body outside of the UFC,

then John Jones would be forced to fight or vacate, right? But because the UFC can control it all, then we end up in situations like this. And, you know, I'm not saying one way's right or one way's wrong, whatever the answer is. You know, everybody can debate that on their own. But it brings up the point that I think it's worth looking into each sides of that argument and kind of making up your own mind.

it. You know, it's funny you say that. I'm sure you've seen this news around recently, Matt, that the UFC or TKO, whatever you want to call it, is potentially looking into amend the Ali Act for boxing because they want to be able to award their own titles when they start this TKO boxing or whatever it's called. I know people are going to get mad at me saying this, and Matt, you, again, or around, you know boxing better than I do. But correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not saying I want the law to change because that starts stepping into dangerous territory when you're about changing laws.

But am I wrong in thinking, like, doesn't it seem like they don't really enforce the Ali Act all that much? Like, I don't really hear a lot of instances where, like, promoters are getting arrested or, like, I'm not, like, we don't, promoters are not handing out their own titles. These are the sanctioning bodies, the WBC, WBA, that's true.

But there's a lot of stuff that I hear about the Ali Act because when they were trying to amend it for MMA, they're like, it's going to change a sport. I was like, really? Because I don't generally see them enforcing it a lot in boxing. In boxing, I mean, it's overall enforced, yeah. I mean, it's

things like that, yeah, are enforced. Like, top rank isn't given out their own belts. Right, right, right. We could go through the whole act and, you know, maybe debate different things about it. But that's a very large part of it right there. And

it's not enforced in MMA at all. So just that simple fact. And again, you can make up your own decision on it. Like, I don't need the UFC hearing this and sending hitman out to bury me in my backyard or anything, you know, but the, you make up your own mind on it. I'm not saying one way or other. But the fact that it's not enforced in MMA should give you some insight into, you know, whether the sport is being run well or not, right? Or whether it's, I don't even say run well, you know, but whether it's, you know, for the fighters well, right? And there's a reason why the all the action.

was made. And it has helped fighters. And I know there's lots of arguments on how it has hurt the lower or mid-class fighters. But like, it's hard to argue that, you know, when you see Canelo-Alvarez get a $75 million payday and John Jones get a $6 million payday, I mean, that's a pretty simple argument, right? But I just, my only point of the whole thing is like I encourage people to look into it and love them or hate them, Luke Thomas.

did a great video on it the other day. And he brought up a great point that I didn't even know about that the ABC, which is for the fighters, supposedly, is actually working with TKO on this. And I was totally kind of, I don't know, not hands off, but like opinions off about it. Kind of, you know, it didn't really mean a shit ton to me until I heard that.

And the fact that they have someone like the ABC, working with them, colluding in a sense, that's a dangerous fucking thing right there, I think. And I don't like that at all, right? If TKO, obviously, they have their own business interests. Go in, go to the court, fucking try to get it done. I get it. You're a business.

You're trying to make the laws for you. And then the other side should be fighting against you. That's the way fucking the world works, right? But now when the other side is working with you to do something, to amend something that's been a huge part of, you know, fighters, boxing at least, for a very long time. And I think it's pretty, you know, maybe someone might disagree,

but I think it's pretty well recognized as, like, a good thing for fighters. Like, that's, that brings serious issue to me. It seems like, and even though I, even though I've read and heard a lot of people saying, like, the Aliak doesn't get enforced enough in boxing. thing outside of like the, you know, the promoter sanctioning body title thing, but like there's a lot of little intricacies I've heard that just don't get enforced. But that's not

really my argument. My argument is because we've talked for years about fighter unions and how it's just never going to happen. Like, it just won't happen in this sport. I'm not saying you should give up on it. I'm just saying likelihood is never going to happen. But who's fighting for the fighters, man? Like, you know what I mean? Because it's like I see, I see this kid Malcolm Wellmaker who won this last weekend. And, you know, he was, it's his first UFC fight, so he's not a super famous guy.

But he got a $50,000 bonus. And he's like, I'm now going to quit my job so I can become a full-time fighter because up until now he was a pipe fitter on top of being a fighter. And he's like, he told me, he's like, before, when he won a contender series, he's like in the back of his mind, he's like, my life's going to change. I'm a UFC fighter now. And he's like, I actually, I just pretty much went back to work on Monday morning. Like, nothing really changed. And I can't remember what it was this weekend. Somebody was talking about money. And I said, I mean, not for nothing. But I'm. I mean, not for nothing. I just put out a report about the TKO executives.

You know, Ari Emanuel made $18 million last year. Mark Shapiro, the president made $32 million. And Dwayne Johnson, the Rock, just for signing on and becoming a board member at TKO, he earned $29 million in stock options. Like they gave him $29 million worth of TICO's stock just to put his name on the board of directors. And I'm sure, like when Dana joined the meta world, the meta director, boarder directors of Facebook, I'm sure they gave him a chunk of money too. I think that like when you see stuff like that and then you see a kid who's like

$50,000 is just completely life-changing money for me. I'm not saying it shouldn't be, but like they have the money. They have the money to pay fighters more money. Who's fighting for the fighters? Like who's going? As we said, and I've said this many times, like there's a union is never going to have, you will never, it will never happen to them in the MA. I don't think it will ever.

It is in boxing. There's no boxing union. It's not going to happen. And so who's fighting for the fight. Yeah, I agree. And when we talk about who's fine for a fighters, they're supposed to be the ABC. That's my exact point.

Like, they were the one that was sort of entrusted to be fighting for us, right? And it's pretty clear they're not. But, and also, like, I don't necessarily, I don't necessarily believe that, like, incoming fighters should be earning a lot of money either, right? You know, you should have to work your way up. I think the, you know, where I take issue is that, you know,

when you do get to the top and you are selling, like you should be making real money. You know, like you should be making, you know, real fucking money. I don't know how to say it, right?

Like you should be fucking killing it. You know, like I read a thing saying, you know, Carter McGregor made $26 million total throughout his career. And to me, that's just insane being like a guy like, you know,

I mean, you could find boxers like, like you've, bank and bin over this weekend. Like I bet anything they made like 20 mil. You know what I mean? And it's like, you know, they're not the, they're not the stars that Connor was. You know, and they made him one weekend.

So yeah, I mean, we, we could certainly, you know, talk ad nauseum about this, you know, because it's a, it's a very deep, intricate subject. And that's why I just say, look, everybody, they need to do their own research. And my only, my only objective is like, look, I hope anybody listening, that cares about MMA and fighters and the business and the career and the people involved in it, like do your own research. That's my only thing. You know, I'm not necessarily taking sides or, you know, I don't want the UFC murdering me

or slice in my throat in my sleep or anything. You know, just it is what it is. Yeah, it's funny because I think one of the things I saw over the weekend was about the NFL draft and I know the NFL, the NFL is bigger than everybody. and as profitable as UFC is, it's nowhere close to the NFL, but they were talking about being a fifth round draft pick, Shador Sanders, this kid that was supposed to go in the first round. He didn't go to the fifth round.

Everyone was freaking out about it. And even in the fifth round, like, he's still going to get a player minimum contract, which I think is like $400,000 or whatever, and then that's not even getting into like bonuses and things like that. And like you don't sniff $400,000 in the UFC until you're a main event, like, title fighter. Like, you know, like that's a guy day one in the NFL, not play a single down in the NFL and you're going to make a guaranteed $400,000, whatever the number is.

I can't remember what the number is. But that's what, like, there's, again, you're not wrong when you say, like, you shouldn't, you know, you're not going to start out day one of the U.S. you're making a lot of money. No, and I don't think anyone would say that you should. But 10 and 10 or 12 and 12, and then the NFL guy or even hockey, like there's a minimum salary. Like, that's the kind of things you're not going to get in MMA unless some major changes happen.

You talk about Connor like 26 million. Now that sounds, I'd love $26 million. You'd love $26 million. And we're like, well, Connor's not hurting for money. He's got plenty of money. Sure. But when you know you should have earned $120 million and you only made $26, again, I'm not saying like he's not getting that extra cheese on his whopper, but there's still a value that he didn't

get paid his worth. Right. It was like, you know, I own a gym, right? And if one of my employees does a million dollars in sales, right? now my gym is making, you know, $10 million a year, you know, but I'm paying them, you know, 50K, they're going to be like, yo, bro, what the fuck, right?

I mean, it's just normal stuff. And, you know, but that's the contract that we sign. And that's, of course, that's the argument, you know, of anybody particularly, like if you go on Twitter and, you know, all the negative assholes and shit, like, well, don't sign the contract in. It's like, all right, I won't sign a contract and I'll stay a pipe fitter, I guess. You know, it's like, you know, it is. it is a difficult subject.

I think there's tons of nuances on both sides. I don't think there's a lot of clear, clear cut opinions and things. So I think that's why I said, do your own research, make up your own opinion. Just know that a lot of the research is going to be manipulated too, right? Like there's,

you know, you got to look pretty deep. And it's hard to expect fans to do that too, right? like if there's I'm sure there's lawsuits in the NBA and NFL and shit all the time and like I'm not looking into that shit like I don't I'm like boy I just want to watch a fucking game I don't fucking care but yeah so it's like it's not necessarily expected but you know if someone wants to have I think I would say it's about anything if you want to have an opinion about it fucking do your research about it 100% 110% real quick we get out of here Matt this weekend UFC card in Des Moines Iowa it's actually an incredibly good card Misha Tate is fighting there Jeremy Stevens big is return to the which is pretty cool. Corey San Hagan against Deveson Figuero. And then the co-mate event is Reiner de Ritter taking on Bo Nickel.

I want to close out on this, Matt. I'm not disrespecting Corey San Hagan and Figuera. That's an incredible fight. I think it's going to be an absolute war, and I am so excited about that one. I'm very happy for Jeremy Stevens coming back. This is a really, really cool card. But we've talked after his last fight with

Bo Nicol, the kind of expectations around this guy. Like he came in day one, three fights, and he's getting on pay-per-view main cards. before like guys established guys there's some blowback and very early on he was very dominant but his last fight against Paul Craig was not and we talked about afterwards like

you know he kind of he kind of lashed out a little bit about it and we're like dude like it was just not a great fight you won you you won like no one can complain you won but it wasn't like this knocked down dragout war you went out there and dominated the guy I'm curious Matt we don't a signature win for Ian Gary now Bo Nichols not there yet

he's not but considering the backlash he he phased off the Paul Craig fight, does he need to go out and do more in this fight? Because Reiner to Ritter is a very, very dangerous, very nasty grappler. Does he need to go out and do some,

I don't say spectacular. I'm not saying he needs to go out there and get a first round knockout. But does he need to go out there and do something bigger, better, more impressive? Because the narrative on Bose changed a little bit. Like the narrative is switched from like, here's this prospect who's going to be a future champion. Now it's kind of like, ah,

I don't know, we'll see. And I know that's the with the beach you're only as good as your last fight so does bow nickel need to do something special on saturday more than just win does he need to i don't think so right i mean he's he needs to go win first that's that's that's the key right he goes and wins he'll keep moving up and um you does he want to yeah that's up to his own mind right i can't say i got to assume that he probably wants to though right he probably wants to put it on and and show up a little bit better so that he's not facing that backlash. And that could be, that could work against him too.

It could be a good or bad thing for him. You know, who knows, right? I mean, he might fall into the pressure feeling like he needs to make it a little bit more exciting or he needs to, you know, go for more risks or something. Who knows? That could work against, especially against the guy like the Ritter, because the Ritter's not going to be a pushover. This is most likely his toughest fight to date, right?

This is probably his highest level guy. the guy's dangerous and not just the grappling. Like Paul Craig's really just dangerous in the grappling. And the Ritter's dangerous in other areas too. So it's pretty interesting. But I would never say he needs to. Right? He needs to win first. Right?

Yeah. I think that's the, I think that's the, like, you know, I was, because I'm a wrestling guy, I was pumping up bow nickel pretty hard from day one and I still am. Like, I'm still on the bone nickel train. I'm not jumping off by any stretch of imagination. But that's the danger of when you come in. and you have so much hype around you, right? Like, because you just, when you come out and you look like

an absolute killer in your first couple of fights, people are like, this is the guy, we were right, this is the guy. And when you have one not spectacular performance or one kind of like, oh, he won, but it was kind of boring or whatever. People turn on you quick, man. Like, there's no other way around it in this sport. People will turn on you quick. And I think that's what Beau's facing.

And it's almost like, if I'm Boe-Nickel, I just shut everything out. Shut the noise out. Don't even focus on what people are saying. You need to do this. you need to do that. Just focus on you, go out and win. And as you've said, many times in the show, Matt, winning fixes everything.

If you win, you're going to go. Now, maybe your path to a title is going to take a little longer if you're not out there, Alex Perrarian guys. But if you keep winning, it will solve the problem. So don't fuck around and be like, I got to be, I got to hit a flying triangle choke on Reiner to Ritter to win this fight. No, you need to beat Rinder to Ritter and let everything else happen the way it happens.

That's exactly right. So that's, but again, he may want to, though. You know, that's the, I think Booneckos are pretty obviously a very mentally strong competitor and has his head on right and everything. But the pressure of being a UFC fighter with a bunch of hype around you and the amount of media that he gets could push him to go do some things as not necessarily characteristic of him. Could, could not. We'll see. But that, but yeah, so I don't know if he wants to.

or not, but does he need to be great for him if he does, right? It'd be a really, really, really great for him. You know, probably push him like into top 10 territory. You know, but that's it's going to be up to him, you know, to see how he wants to handle his career.

You know, he might not feel like he's ready for a top 10 territory yet. I'm not sure. Yeah, it's interesting. And I, again, like, there's, I mean, there's, you know, when you have that much hype and attention around you, people want you to go out there and put on those kind of spectacular performance. I remember when Israel Adasanya signed, and I knew who he was from glory, and I was like,

oh, my God, I can't wait to watch this guy. And that, you know, there's a certain level of pressure. And you could argue, like, Patty Pimblek coming in the way he did, he had a lot of hype around him. And when he had that Jared Gordon fight, everyone, like, jumped off the ship immediately. They're like, oh, my God, he lost to Jared. He should have lost to Jared Gordon. We were jumping off this bandwagon. And now he beat Paul Craig 3027, but still, it wasn't what we thought it was going to be.

And some people were like, I'm off to Paul. I'm off the Bo Nickel wagon. That's the nature of the beast. I think for Paul, the best thing for Bo Nichols is just not to listen to it. Just go out and be you, when your fight. But, you know, there's a world where he, in the back of his head somewhere, he might be thinking, like, I got to go out and lay waste of this guy. I can't have another kind of boring 30, 27 decision.

Or, because remember, he was on pay-per-view main cards. Now he's the co-main event of a fight night card. You have a couple more stinkers. They might put you on a prelim. You know what I mean? That's just the, that's how the UFC operates. So I don't know. I think we're going to learn a lot about Bo Nicol in this fight, like how he approaches this

right yeah yeah again especially being the der ritter's he's claimed that he's totally willing to grapple with them and wrestle with them and everything but the ritter also has good striking too you know he's a solid striker you know i'm not going to say he's in israel to sign or anything but he's got heavy hands and and he's good on the feet like he he knows what he's doing so i think it could definitely it's a proper test for bo nico to see where he's at and i you know my fear would be that you know if i'm Nichols coach or manager or whatever. My fears that that pressure gets to him and he does try to go out and do

something that's not characteristic of him. I don't see Bo doing that personally, though. I think he's just a solid dude all around in terms of his mental capacity and mental strength and everything. I think he'll be perfectly fine. Yeah, I agree. We'll see. That's a good fight, and I'm not even, I wouldn't be shocked if Derriter

pulls off the upside. He's a really, really good fight. This is not like a walkover. This is not a pushover fight for Bo Nichols. So good card this weekend. Des Moines are good cards. We'll obviously talk about that next week. And of course, next week we'll be doing our UFC 315 preview.

We'll talk about Bilal-Mahomahana. We'll talk about Valentina Shepchenko and Mendo Fiore. So good car coming up next weekend from Montreal. So we'll definitely break all that down. Matt, people want to check you out, support you. Where can they go? I'm immortal Instagram and Twitter. The Immortal My Brow on Facebook.

That's what we got today. All right. Well, folks, we always appreciate you tuning into the show. make sure you check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and of course everyone the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin. We'll see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider. Thanks for tuning in.

We'll see you then.