MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Says Tom Aspinall Absolutely Cannot Lose to Cyril Gane, Addresses Renato Moicano Turning Down UFC Lawsuit Money

Episode Date: July 29, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin discuss who has the most pressure on them in upcoming title fights including Tom Aspinall vs. Cyril Gane, Magomed Ankalaev vs. Alex Pereira and Merab Dvalishvli vs. Cory Sandhagen. Plus we discuss Renanto Moicano turning down money from the UFC lawsuit and much more Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Ooh, European chocolate for the crossing guard? At these prices, could I find something for everyone at Winners? Stop wondering. Start gifting. Winners, find fabulous for less. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Back to the fighter versus the writer. I'm Damon Martin. He is U.S.C. legend Matt Brown.

He is back for the attack after a week off going down to Costa Rica and joining some surf and sand, some training. How was Costa Rica? Beautiful, man. Love the place. The resort, well, hotel resort that we were at was just perfect, man. Just trained every morning. Got out. Got some surfing in every afternoon.

afternoon. Weather was beautiful. The food was spectacular to say the least. I mean, just the I love, that's one of the things I love about Costa Rica. All the food is so fresh. You know, we had mango trees growing right there at the hotel. We'd go pick a mango and eat it. We also, we got to get out and we caught a tuna, actually two tuna. My son caught one and then, and then what the host guy that, Terry is. his name he caught another one and so we had about 100 pounds of tuna meat to eat we'll we actually didn't eat very much of it but you know we put a good din in it fresh tuna um just a perfect week man just amazing had the whole fam there the kids and everything so um we're planning on doing it again

next year so i hope uh we get some more people this time you know we have pretty small group but it was a good quality group but got some good training but um next year man, I want to blow this thing up. So we're going to promote it on the podcast every week. 100%. 100%. Is it more satisfying to eat food that you've killed? Because I remember when I was a kid and I shot my first deer.

And like, I'm not a big fan of venison. I'll be honest. I'm not a big fan of venison meat. But like knowing I was eating the kill, you know, kind of, there's something kind of special about that. Like I haven't done in years, but like I remember when I was like 16, I killed my first deer. I was like, ah, I feel pretty good.

Like, you have that deer. Like, I'm not even a big fan of venison. I was like, this is pretty cool. killed my own food for me like it's pretty rewarding like a couple hours after but then the next meal's on it's kind of like all right it's just me you know it tastes the same it's not that much different but but that first meal that you have with it you're like yeah you know this was my work that i put it especially did one of those fish we caught took us an hour to reel the thing in it was an 80 pound tuna it literally took us an hour and we were like switching on and off between people

because we're just, you know, just grinding on his thing. He kept fighting the whole time. So, you know, when you put in that kind of work, it was like a team effort and then we all got to eat them after. Like, that was pretty rewarding. Yeah, I imagine. And, you know, like, I know you were posted a little bit on social media, you know, showing all the resort and stuff,

but like, gotta be nice to get on there, just kind of disconnect from the world a little bit. Just go down there and kind of enjoy the beach and enjoy some training, enjoy some food and not like focus on everything else in the world. Because I know, like, those rare times when I go on vacation, Like when I used to go to San Diego Comic Con every year, like it was such a good refresher just to go out there and disconnect from social media and just like not not think about that shit. Like it is just like a nice mental break.

Yeah, absolutely, man. Yeah, you know, I stayed up on my stuff just because I kind of have to, you know, with the businesses and, you know, everything like that. But, you know, it was I only had the Wi-Fi at the hotel. I didn't buy like the, what, international plan or whatever. So just had Wi-Fi at the hotel. You know, just catch up while I'm there. A couple hours a day, the rest of the time, completely disconnected from the world and just enjoying the sun and the beauty.

And, you know, I just love the lifestyle there, man. It's so chill and relaxed. And everybody's just there to have a good time. And especially like in the surf towns, like we're at the, you know, in the Sara, which is kind of a world-renowned surf town. goes there just for that and it's basically all there is to do that there's really not much else in the town of nassar like it's just a surf town but so it's it's awesome you know to disconnect and hang out with cool people you know it's just man it feels great it sucks to come back that's the

only downsides you got to come back and then um you know my flight got delayed and so we didn't get into like five this morning so yeah you know That's the part that's not so fun. But there's always like the hangover for vacation where it's like the best time and you have to like kind of get past it when you come home. You're like, because for a moment, like you're there's a party that's excited to be home, be in your own bed, you know, that kind of stuff. But then the other side, it's like as soon as you get back, it's like the hangover

of missing vacation. Yeah, you get home and you're kind of like, dude, what am I doing myself? Like, why am I here? Especially when you come back from a place like Costa Rica and you're like, And he'd be like, why am I in Ohio? Like, what the fuck is it? It was like, you know, going from, you know, 80 degrees of sun all day with green jungles and monkeys and fresh fruit. And then you're like, okay, I got to go to the Kroger and get some fucking frozen pizza for my dinner.

Yeah. Big stark contrast in the two places. Not a whole lot of similarities from Costa Rica and Ohio, I will say. Yeah, my vacation coming up in a few weeks, I'm going to Chicago, which is not nearly as far or not nearly as fun, but I'm going to see System of a Down. So I'm excited about that at the Shoulder Field. I haven't seen System of a Down like twice. And it's been years and they don't do a lot of shows. So I was like, they're playing in Chicago.

I'm going to that show. So I'm going to that. What is the date on that? Because the UFC's coming in a couple weeks. Yeah, it's actually like two weeks after that. It's like August. I think it's like August 16th is the UFC and System of a down is always. It was 30th, so it's like two weeks later.

Okay, cool. Yeah. That's going to be pretty cool, huh? Soldier Field, system of a down. And Avenge Seventhold. There's the two bands. Oh, and Avenge. Yeah.

So who's headlining? That's a tough one. It's system headlining. It's like they're just doing like, I want to say they're doing like six or eight, like stadium dates and that's it. Like they're not doing a tour. They're just doing like Chicago, L.A., New York. They're doing like six, like five cities.

And they're just doing a couple of stadiums. shows that's it like it's not a full tour and then eventually it's opening so that's a cool position to be in like yeah we're not going to do a tour we're just going to do a few stadiums for you guys yeah i just i love system of a down and like because they're they're still kind of broken up like they get together for shit like this but yeah but on new music and years so when i saw they were coming i was like dude i got to go i got to see i got to go see system so i bought tickets especially with binge which is your favorite band ever right yeah one of my i love a binge so i was like oh that come on like that was an instant buy i was like

come on now because I actually just saw Avenged here in Columbus last year they played down at Nationwide or Schottnstein I care of which which arena was but I saw him down there was a great show but yeah I was like I got to go to this avenged and system and of course you and I are sure love a metal of course this past week we had a bit of a tragedy in the metal community of course the great Ozzy Osbourne leaves us what's what's funny what's not funny what's crazy about that is is like I've been on a real Ozzy kick lately like listen to Ozzy music like I got a lot of Ozzy vinyl and so I've been like kicking a lot of Ozzy and the timing sucked because I was like I mean I've been just

rocking Ozzy non-sub lately and then of course he passes away and it's just like I mean he lived a big life man so I can't say he didn't he didn't do it all but still you know it's just sad you know some of you admire so much you love their music especially someone like Ozzie man like just a good dude all around like just nothing but a fun time for almost 80 years you know and uh you know what a fucking legend bro did you see Debussy, did you see Ozzy in concert? I went to Ozfest in like 99, I want to say, maybe 2000. And Ozzy was sick and didn't show up.

And they had the riot. It was here at Palaris. They had the little riot and everything because Phil and Semmel came out to try to cover for Ozzy. And he was already shit-faced. You know, he'd already played and probably, you know, I think he was close to like falling over drunk. And everybody's like, bro, what the fuck is this? and so they rioted and there's mud everywhere. The last time I moved, I couldn't find it, but I had a piece of the fence still,

where they tore it down and I try to keep it. And of course, you lose everything when you're moving, so it is what it is. But yeah, so I actually never got to see Ozzy, man. Kind of sucks. But I've seen Zach Wild many times and he's coming back. So I'm sure I'll see him again because he's probably my favorite guitar player of all time. I mean, he's amazing. I probably one of the greatest guitar players

in all the time. You're talking about Ozzy. Like, look at Black Sabbath, Randy Rhodes, Zach Wild, that dude just got a knack for playing with great guitar players. Yeah. I actually did. Everybody forgets about Jake E. Lee, Bark at the Moon. Yeah. And I think that show you're talking about, because at that time I was

living in Cincinnati, I went to Oz Fest that year, and I saw him play with Black Sabbath. That was when I saw Ozzie play. It must have been the very next show that they were at Polaris and Columbus because I saw him in Cincinnati River Bend, at Oz Fest. And I know I saw, I've seen Ozzy twice,

and that was one of the years when they play with Black Sabbath, because I was like, ooh, because Pantera was the main band before them. So it had to be the same year. Just you got to the one show later, and he didn't show up, because I got the Cincinnati show, and he did show up, and I got to see him play with Black Sabbath. So that's one of the only two times I ever saw Ozzie. Yeah, it was actually, I could do the math.

I remember I was 16, maybe 17. And, you know, we got really, really drunk on the ride, up here. I think we were tripping on acid or something. So I didn't even see the other bands before. Like, I was kind of like roaming around, you know what I mean? But I wasn't really watching anything. And like the interesting thing is I still remember a little bit of like, I think it was slip knot, disturbed. Like, you know, all these bands that blew up were on like the second stages that year. Like, you know, these fucking, you know, epic legendary bands at this point, like they're were just coming up. I specifically remember Slipknot because it was, I remember the, I think it was

Judas Priest playing on the main stage and Slipknot on the stage. It was one of the older like 80s bands and like everybody just left and went over to Slipknot and there was nobody at the main stage and everybody, but nobody ever even heard of them. They were just like telling their friends, like, bro, you got to come see these motherfuckers, you know? And they just put on a fucking, you know, a show like that that just blew everybody's mind. Yeah, actually, so that was actually one of the times I saw a system of a down, I saw them open for Faith No More in Bogart's in Cincinnati. It was before their first album came out.

And everyone's like, who are these guys? Like, they were just like, they're getting some buzz. And their album was coming out, like, maybe like a month later or two months later. And I think Sugar had come out by that point. I think that one song had come out. And they were opening for Faith No More during the King for a Day, full for a lifetime tour. And I was like, all right, oh, you know,

I love Padenomor, so I was like, I'll go see it. And I remember system, I was like, what the fuck is this? Like, this is, I've never even heard anything like that before. And, yeah, Slip Now, I do remember that with Slip Now playing at Oz Fest, where you're like, who is this? Like, they got three drummers and like, what's going on over here? And it's just something you never heard before and unique and obviously still going strong today. Man, it's crazy. What a great time to be alive, huh?

And the music scene, you don't see quite as much of that unique stuff these days, I feel like. I still follow music like. the newer stuff and there's still great music coming out I'm not that grandpa it's like you know all this shit's bullshit it's like you just don't see those bands where you're just blown away like you do I guess in a sense of like some of the technical

bands right we have the guys like animals as leaders you know shit like that where you're just like dude what the fuck they are like polypia shit like that but in the sense of like something that's just never been done like slip knot and just you know takes everybody's attention for a minute, like you, you just don't see a whole lot of that anymore. Yeah, it's not.

Well, like I said, you know, I don't go to festivals anymore, so I don't see a lot of the newer bands like that idea. Same, yeah. I've outgrown the festivals. I can't do it anymore. Yeah, I guess we're too grandpa for that shit at least. I just, our boy Loper invited me to go to incarceration. I was just like, oh, I just, the hour drive to Mansfield, the parking,

and then fucking, you know, every band I want to see, they're going to play like 30 minutes. I'm like, it's just not. I just can't do it. Yeah, had I not been in Costa Rica, I probably would have went to that, but I will choose Costa Rica. 10 out of 10 times for that trip.

Lots of good shows coming up. I got tickets going to system of a down. Spirit boxes coming here in November, so I'm going to see them. They're here, spirit box is awesome. So, yeah, some good shows. You know, it's just not festivals. I'm just not a big festival.

I'm going to the grandpa show. Dream Theater is coming, you know, and I'll probably be seated the whole time. and crossing my legs and watching with intention, you know. But I've never, I've never seen them, and I've always wanted to see them just because, you know, the technical proficiency is just out of this fucking world. So it'd be cool to see them. That's my next show. And next up after that, you'll go see Queensreich, you know, go see.

I think Queensreich is coming, actually. I don't know. I always think of Queensryke. Whenever I think of Dream Theater, I think of Queensrake. and I have no idea why, but I always think of those two bands together. Progressive mock metal, yeah. They're in the same genre to some extent, so I get it. Yeah, so when you're down in Costa Rica, you're training and stuff,

but I don't know how much you're actually paying attention to the sport because we've had a lot of stuff go on these past couple weeks. Of course, you were gone. We had Alangea Band, the Great Alangea Band, stepped in last week to talk about Dusta Porier, retirement of height against Max Holloway. not going to spend a lot of time on it. Just, you know, what we talked about beforehand, you know,

like guys who have one foot out the door, and rarely do you see a guy go out on top. And I don't think Dustin made a bad account of him for himself by any stretch of imagination, but it's just almost like you could kind of rewrite, you can probably pre-write the script when you go in because Max went out there and put on a great show. And Dustin hung tough, man.

Dustin was doing what he's doing, but obviously he retired. We got a lot of big fight announcements. We had three title fights get announced. We got Magumet Inc. Goliath and Alex Pereira 2, Marab de Wilesh Vili and Corey Sandhagan, and then Tom Aspinall, finally fighting against Cyril Gond, the fight we kind of all sunk calming. So I don't know how much you even kept up on the news while you're gone, Matt. Not a ton, ton, but I knew all those that you just mentioned. And the only fight I got to watch, you know, not in, not closely,

but got to watch a little bit was the Ritter-Wittaker fight, which was a really great. good fight and showed how good the Ritter actually is too you know i mean we all knew he was good coming in from one championship and you know uh beating bo nickel i mean that's no joke in of itself but but you know we kind of chalked that up to experience with bow nickel right and you know when he goes out there and beats robert whittaker and and didn't have an easy time doing it either i mean he went through some trials and tribulations through that fight and had to grind his way out, but dude's legit. He's coming up.

Yeah, he looked good. And I did score and win in that fight. It was a close fight, but a very good fight and a big win for him. And it's kind of crazy because, you know, lately we've seen some guys, you know, we saw Apache Mix come in and had some struggles. Patricia Pitbull came in and had some struggles. Derritor has not. I mean, you know, to go in there, go, you know, three and O, finish all three guys that

go in there and have a war with a former champion like Robert Whitaker and win. dude that's that's a huge huge feather in his cap and now you got to imagine it's going to come down to him or berhalio or imovov they're fighting in September you know depending on how that all plays out because we got drichus and homzot coming up here in just a few weeks so middleweight's looking pretty good right now got you got some new blood in there you know what I mean like imov is looking good he knocked out of sanya kio baraglio has looked great he's undefeated you know incredible guy comes from that fighting nerds team so that's a fun one like we're actually We talk about stagnation sometimes in some of these divisions where it's like, man, come on, we need some new blood in there, need some young guys coming up. Middleweight's got that right now.

Middleweight's got it. And with De Pleistice's at the top, like, I think we're in for some good battles, man. I think, you know, this fight with Hamzat's obviously going to be an interesting one. He gets past that. It's like, we're going to see Deplessis take a lot of beatings. I'm not saying he's going to lose. Like, he's probably still going to win all these fights. You know, I mean, who knows with him, right?

but, man, that's a lot of punching up on DePlessy's, you know, because that's just the way he fights, right? That's what happens. He gets punched and somehow wins. I've learned, like, it's, I can't remember, like, there are certain guys, like, you just find yourself, like, not because you dislike him. You just find yourself kind of picking against them, you know, like, ah, he's good, but I, you know, I was the victim of that with Duplessis.

I'm like, okay, he's fighting, he's fighting Robert Whitaker. Okay, this is where the run ends. And then he goes out there, knocks out of Robert Wittes. and then he goes out there to be Sean Strickland and then he goes out there and finishes is he I know Hamzott looks like a wrecking machine but I'm done doubting drickus like that dude's that dude proved me wrong too much I'm done doubting him not saying he's gonna win I'm not saying it's 100% we'll do it'll break that to fight down in a couple weeks but I'm done doubting the guy like I can't keep picking against him because every time I did he just

proved me wrong you know the last time I did that exactly what you're doing I think it was chuck Lidale like I picked against him a lot because I thought he had you know just match up wise you know you I was like, ah, you know, it doesn't look good or whatever. I think. And then finally, I was, okay, I'm never picking against Chuck again. And then he fought Randy Couture. I was like, God damn it.

You jumped on, you jumped on the train a little bit too late. A little bit too late. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, there's a lot of similarities there, right? Where it doesn't look, you just not, you're not seeing that sharp, crisp technique. You know, it's not like you're watching Jose Auto. Like, it's hard to ever picking his Jose Auto. Like, he's so sharp and.

crisp and fast and great technique. It just looks good and everything he does. That's why Hansen Barbosa was another one. It was always hard to pick against. And, you know, he just looks so good. Everything he did. So fluid and smooth and quick. And then you got the guys like Dracus who just do everything, you know,

what is appearing from the outside is so sloppy and a mess. And like there's no game plan. There's no strategy. It's just hoping for the best and throwing for, winging for offenses. and some bitch keeps winning, you know? He's a hard guy to pick against, man, because, you know, we don't know what his limit of beating, taking is. And, like, there's a point where he's not going to be able to take that anymore, right?

Yeah. We just don't know who's going to be able to do it against him. Yeah, it's funny because I talked to, I had talked to Derritter about this fight going back to the Bo-Nichael fight because he had, He trained with both of them. He'd train with Dracus. He'd train with Hamzot. And he told me that he's like, you know,

Hamzot, he's like, if Hamzot gets him down early, it's going to be a rough knife for Dracus. But if he can't get him down that first round, maybe second round, it's going to be a long knife for Hamzot. And he's like, and also because Drichus can take punishment. He's like, I understand Hamzot dishes it out at a different level, but he's like, just Drickis is so tough. And he told me, he's like, he was picking Drinkus to win

because he's like, I just think if it gets past round one, deep into round two, it's going to go bad for Hamzot. He doesn't have the guy. tank to hang him with Drickus. Yeah. And I feel like that's kind of the narrative of that fight. And I don't want to get too deep into it because we're going to break it down to a couple weeks.

But I feel like people are starting to come around a little bit more on Drickus. Because I think if you made this fight a year ago, people will be like, oh, Hamza is just going to kill him. Now it's almost like Hamzaa could kill him, but there's also a real good chance if he doesn't kill him early. He's going to be in trouble if it gets like the second, third, and fourth round. No, that's exactly it. I think it's a pretty clear, you know, the way this is going to look.

right. I mean, you know, Hamzaa is sharp and Drake has said it perfect, right? And when you said, we'll break this down. We don't have to get too deep. But, you know, we know that it's a clear game plan for Hamzaat and when, and Dracus knows exactly what he needs to do. And, you know, it's going to be interesting to see how if Hamzaa can get that early take down, right? Like, Drake is a strong dude. I mean, you can just tell, right, the way moves people and the way that he carries himself and, you know it's definitely not going to be easy night at the office for hamza and his hardest test so far has been gilbert burns you know i guess uzman to some extent

but probably gilbert burns was probably his toughest fight and drakes is a hell of a lot bigger than either one of those guys and hits a lot harder yeah that's interesting and i it's kind of funny because we talked about this with like pantosia when he won recently and then mirab goes out there and dominates and finishes shana mall it's like all these guys like are they going to get the respect they deserve and like the, I know everyone touched pound for pound, but I'm just like general in the sense of the word, like in just, you know, general sense of like how people hold you in certain regard. Like when Alex Perey was champion, people were like, oh, he can go to heavyweight, he can do this,

he can do that, he's great, he's this and that. And we don't, we didn't, we weren't, a lot of people, and Islam, Islam Akacha, and rightfully so, like he's this, he's that, he can do all, he can do everything. And I feel like there are certain guys who just kind of slipped under the radar for a long time as Pentosia, for a long time as Marab. and I feel like Drinkis might be the worst one. Like I feel like he doesn't get the respect he deserves for how good he is. And if he can go out and beat Hamzot,

it's going to say a whole hell of a lot about how good he really is. Yeah, I agree. And, you know, I was having this conversation every day with some guys well down on Costa Rica at the retreat. And, you know, I made the argument that the best base for MMA is not wrestling. It's obviously a great base and there's a great, a million great things you can do with. But the best bait is athleticism, toughness, endurance. You know what I mean?

Like these sort of X-factor things, you know? Because you can pick up wrestling. You can pick up striking. You can pick up jiu-jitsu, you know, all these different things. You can't pick up heart. You can't pick up grit. You can't, you know, most people have a sort of a limit to how strong they can get or how long their cardio can last and things like that.

and their athleticism overall, right? There's only so much you can develop. And that's the best base, in my opinion. I mean, I don't disagree when you say that because you look at a guy like Marab. I mean, you just can't keep up with the guy. Like he can't, like, he presses down in the gas pedal, and you're like, okay, I'm good for the first round. And maybe you're good for the second round. By the third round, you're like, fuck, I can't keep up with this guy.

And that is, I always bring this up. And I always remember when I first saw cardio as a weapon or really truly remembered Cardio's weapons when Frank Shamrock fought Tito Ortiz. Tito looked like he was three weight classes bigger than Frank. He's taking him down on top of him, but just kept going, kept going. And eventually he ran out of gas. And Frank out worked him and then finished him and whatever was the fourth of his round. Cardio is a real weapon.

Conditioning and pace is a real weapon. That's why I think, like Marab's an incredible wrestler. You know what I mean? He's got good submissions, but you just cannot keep up with that dude's pace. Like he is just a, he is a freaking nonstop train. You just cannot slow him down. and that is a real weapon. And he's certainly an incredible wrestler,

but, you know, we, you know, we don't see his wrestling. Like, he's, you know, when he fought Peter Yan first, is that, I shouldn't say we don't see his wrestling, but, you know, he shot how many shots on Peter Yan, and then, you know, finished, what, two or three of them at most? I don't even remember if he finished any of them. I don't remember seeing Peter Yan on his back,

but the fact that he just kept shooting him and shooting him, and, you know, that's like a perfect example. like you don't have to be the best wrestler, but if you can shoot 100 shots, you're going to create a big lead on the other guy during the fight. Yeah, I mean, we just saw that, I know you didn't see the fight,

we just saw that this last Saturday night with Bryce Mitchell, he got lit up in the first round by Saeed and Mugamatov and then Saeed started running out of gas and Bryce just took him down. Didn't really do anything flashy, he didn't really hurt him, didn't really come close to submitting him,

but Saeed was out of gas and Bryce could just keep taking him down and putting him on his back and you know out working them on the ground going for submission things like that that's a real weapon and so uh you know i i don't disagree when you say that when you're like oh wrestling's not the best basis is hold on now and then when you say that i'm like yeah that's kind of a good point because like guys who have incredible cardio like you could you like you can train cardio obviously but some people just have that natural yeah natural ability yeah we all have a uh a natural ceiling

you know like we don't we can't all go win marathons right like somebody's got something natural they put in the same amount of work and they get more out of it. And, you know, I would argue also, you know, on that same point that, how would I say it? Like, it's not that wrestling itself is the best base, but the people with all those qualities that are just described are usually better at wrestling. And they gravitate towards wrestling.

Yeah. You know, like wrestling is the most athletic sport in the world, right? It requires the most amount of athleticism. bar none. And I don't think, you know, I think you're going to have a hard time arguing against that, right? Like maybe gymnastics, but you're not going against another person. It's just you, you know, you're doing your own thing. And, you know, like, I think it's a tough argument to say it's not not freestyle wrestling. You know, you have to have cardio. You have to have strength. You have to have endurance. You have to have great technique. You have to have the right mindset.

You know what I mean? Like all of these X factors, so the people that succeed in wrestling, are all of those things that are just described. They're athletic and they have cardio and they have strength and all of these things. So, you know, it's not that it's wrestling that's the best base. It's those athletic traits that lead people towards wrestling, for one. But, you know, look at me. I get so aggravated when people say that because it's like they're trying to generalize things and they're trying to like pigeonhole different things, you know, like wrestling.

or strike it what's the bit like we're way past that i think like we're not in 1990 anymore right it's like if you if you have a the athletic athletic gifts like you can pick like israel de son and never wrestled right and you know didn't get taken down a whole lot you know you know at least for at least for a very long time in his career i think later on you know he started getting caught a little more but you know Jose auto never wrestled didn't even he grew up in Brazil like it didn't it couldn't even spell wrestling probably in English at least you know they call lucha or something yeah the but the point is like did he ever get taken down and held down once I don't think it was once not really he got taken down but never really held down

that was never really like a thing with him so yeah you just pop back up And you can argue, like, to that point, like, you think about, like, these guys who have, like, incredible wrestling backgrounds, and it kills me to, you know, he's my guy. I love him to death. But, like, on paper, John Jones should never out-wrestle Daniel Cormier. Right. That's a great idea. But he did. He did.

Multiple times in their fight. He took him down. And on paper, John was a second-year community college wrestler, and Daniel Corme is a freaking two-time Olympian. You should never be able to take Daniel Cormier down. MMA is a different beast, though. and you know like that's john jones was a different animal and different guy and different athletic i might stand corrected but i believe john lost to matt riddle in college yeah i i think you're right i think you are right remember correctly yeah i think you're right

yeah i'm pretty sure like matt riddle i mean you know to be fair he wasn't like losing fights but you know he didn't last long in the ufc and he was an athlete i was on the show with him that son of bitch is an athlete like a natural gifted son of a bitch like his ceiling was through the roof. But yeah, you know, and it's, that's like a perfect example. Like, okay, the best base, if the best base is wrestling, then the best wrestler should win. And I guarantee if Daniel Cormay and John Jones wrestled, like Daniel Cormer would beat him nine out of ten times, I would put money on that. But in a fight, that athleticism and, you know, and all the other factors play a part. 100%. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. When you say that, you're like, yeah, no, it's

absolutely true. And you think about guys, like, we think about, You know, we talk about Marab. Like, yeah, he's an incredible fighter. But that cardio, that conditioning, that ability to push the pace for five rounds or three rounds or whatever it is, you can't keep up with him. Like, it wears people down. And that is 100% an incredible weapon for him. We bring it up. And rightfully so, you're like, can you keep up with Morab for three rounds?

Well, the vast majority of people cannot. So. Yeah. Yeah, there's not too many people that can. We'll see if Corey Sandhagen can. That's going to be an interesting fight, I think. I think Corey has the right mentality going into it, at least, you know, listen to what he's saying.

He certainly has the right strategy, I think. You know, like he's not, from what he says, you know, he's not scared of Marab. He's not worried too much about a single thing, like his wrestling or whatever, or his cardio. We'll see how that plays out because, you know, I'm a, I love Corey, trained with him out in Denver, love the guy. but I've been a huge Marab fan since day one. You know, Nat, we've talked about that at Nassium. You know, I just can't imagine anybody

beating Marab right now. I just get just nobody. I just don't see it. So I want to bring this up anyway, so let me just ask this question because we got three title fights announced recently, as I mentioned, Ankylaia Pere 2, Marab and Corey, and of course, Tom Aspinall and Cyril gone.

Now, pressure, we talk about this all the time, Like there's pressure in every fight. I don't care if you're on the prelims or you're in a title fight. But title fights are always a little bit different because there's so much on the line. And you think about like going into Sean O'Malley and Morab too. Like I think there was so much pressure on Sean because you're getting back-to-back title fights against the guy in a fight that really wasn't that close the first time. You lose the second time.

You're going to be pretty far back in the pecking order. Not saying you can't get a third fight, but you're going to be pretty far back there. And that's what happened. Marab beat him. And now Sean isn't an afterthought, but he's going to have to work a little harder as long as Marab is champion. When you look at these three title fights, Ancolaev beat Pereira, I thought it was a pretty clear decision, wasn't necessarily a super close fight.

Pereira is 37, 38. He's getting his rematch immediately. You know, there's a lot of pressure there on both guys. Can Ankylaev do it again? Can Pereira win? And if he doesn't win, like, where does he go from there at 38? Like, does he even stick around on light heavyweight? Does he go to heavyweight?

You look at Marab and Corey. Marab's an overwhelming favorite. Like, he is now in a position where people are like, you should win. in this fight. But Corey Sadeygan's been waiting for this opportunity for years. And you just mentioned, like, Corey's a really good fighter. And then you look at Tom and Cyril Gons. Cyril Gons, get his third title fight in, like, two years and has won, like, two

fights in between there. And Tom Asphenol is, you know, finally the undisputed champion, can finally put John Jones out of his peripheral vision, at least for now, and he has a fight. But I'm curious, when you look at those three title fights and everyone involved, because I think there's always stakes. But in your opinion, Matt, who's under the most pressure to win? in those three title fights because you think like gone

if he loses does he ever get another title shot Aspinol if he loses what does that do like everyone's like you're the best Tom you're the greatest you scared John Jones into retirement

if he loses I mean come on that's disastrous then you look at you know Prairie's 37 38 if he loses does he ever get another title I mean there's just a lot on the line here yeah I think

it's almost an unfair comparison right when we talk about pressure versus pressure everybody's under tremendous pressure But I guess when you kind of look at it from not just pressure, but potential legacy and career and what's on the line, I think it's hard to not go with Tom Aspinall because the heavyweight division is on the line. If gone goes in and beats him, no disrespect to gone. Love the guy. The heavyweight division loses a lot of respect. even if Tom goes out there and it's a close fight or he gets dropped and then has to come back

or something like the heavyweight division has so little respect right now probably deservedly so I think even with gone getting his third title shot in a couple years like Tom has to show that he is the heavyweight division he has to prove that to the world like I am you know the heavyweight division's not just shit

but like I'm so good that the heavyweight division is shit right this is kind of his thing that he has to go out there and prove to the world if he goes out there and loses to gone you know the division already is not respected that brings tom down significantly i think right and of course you know the potential john jones fight which is whatever who knows right uh but least you know you know i guess when you look at uncle iven perera either of those could lose either of those guys could lose and they'd probably You know, prayer loses. It's like, okay, he's just not as good as Anka Lyev, and, you know, he's got other options, right? There's other things, you know, maybe he retires. Maybe he, you know, goes and fights other big fights, moves up to heavyweight, back to 185. Like, he has tons of options. Ancolaev loses, like, probably potentially sets up a trilogy or maybe he's got to work his way back

because, you know, the UFC is with guys who aren't exciting and don't talk shit. So is what it is. those guys all have options and futures beyond that. Like if Tom loses, like, you know, like his only option is a rematch, you know, and it's like,

how many people are going to care about that, you know, like what kind of, what kind of demand is there going to be for that, right? And, you know, and then when you look at Corey and Marab, you know, Marab's only pressure is to stay,

you know, how far up can he move pound for pound, right? If he loses, it's like, all right, well, maybe you're not top five pound for pound now, right? You're a great fighter, but we finally found someone to meet you. If Corey loses, it's like, dude, you lost to Maraub. You know, like you get in line with the other guys, you know. Sorry, it sucks.

You know, so. But now with that said, internally as individuals, you know, I would say the person that probably feels the most pressure is going to be. Corey though because I think he's probably got a tough road to another title shot and this is obviously his dream and all that. Gone might feel the same way, you know, because he's probably not going to have another title shot. So he might kind of feel the same way, but I don't know. There's something, I'm not even sure how he put in words, but there's something different about you know, Corey fighting Marab like feels like there's going to be more pressure on himself

to win that fight. Yeah, I agree. Now, in terms of overall, like, the stakes, it's Tom Aspinall. I mean, there's no other answer. I mean, the reality is, because there's a measuring stick here. You know, we know what John Jones did

to Cyril gone in two minutes and whatever was four seconds. Yeah, that's a good point, too. And right now, the heavyweight division is dreadful. I'm not going to sugarcoat him out. It's bad. I mean, it's real bad right now. It's not good at all. We just had Marcus Buchetcha come in.

Oh, a new heavyweight, and he loses. in pretty, like, unimpressive fashion to Martin Boudai, who's not a bad fighter, but he's like the number 15 guy. Like, even a prospect of, we're like, oh, a world jiu jitsu champion, great. This is going to be fun. It wasn't fun. It was not a good fight, and he lost. And, and I mean, we got, like, you know,

I'm not saying there aren't guys out there who could make an impact, but all the guys who could make an impact have either already fought and lost to Tom Aspinall or just aren't around. Like, we were talking about Derek Lewis, who I love, by the way, but knocks out Talism to share I guys want to know in the UFC and they're like maybe he gets a title shot. That's how far down we're going now. We're like well people like

Derek Lewis. He's won one fight. Let's get him in there. Tom Aspinall can't lose to Cyril gone. He can't. He can't. He absolutely cannot because every talking point that we made about Tom Aspinall for the past year plus he's the best guy in the world. He's the real

champion. John Jones doesn't want to fight him. John Jones is running from him even though you and I totally disagree with that. That's the narrative. If you go out and lose to Cyril Ghan, oh my God. John Jones will go on a tweet storm like you have never seen in your life. And that is the, and, by the way, this is not a knock on Cyril Gond. I think he's a very good fighter, but I think we kind of see, we've kind of seen the ceiling for Cyril Gond.

You know, like that, that In Ghanu fight felt like his closest he was going to come. Like, he came close. And that'd be like three, two. now granted Francis had a torn up knee in that fight wasn't the best Francis but he gave it all and we talked about that he went for that submission late and he shouldn't have gone for that submission maybe that cost him but then he got that fight against John and it was over in two and a half minutes whatever was two by just and four seconds he got tapped out with the guillotine and since then it's been kind of like eh like he had that fight with Volkov I didn't even think he won that fight from being honest and then Aspinels looked like an absolute wrecking machine like an absolute wrecking ball you can't even And this is, yeah, and this is where I was kind of saying, like, how he beats gone, assuming he does may play a factor, too. Like, if it turns out to be a close fight, again, John's going to be on his phone with Twitter open watching this fight, like just waiting for Tom to fuck up and get dropped, get late

kicked and limp in a little bit. You know what I mean? John can't wait for that moment. Yeah, exactly. And so, and as you said, you're absolutely right. Like, the heavyweight division is bad right now. Like, it's pretty bad right now. Tom Aspinall is the saving grace of that.

Like, you go back to John Jones a light heavyweight, when he had kind of cleared out all the legends, the rampages, the showguns, the Liotto Machitas, all those guys. And he got to, and I'm sorry, I'm not saying they're not saying they're not good fighters. I'm just saying they're not established, like, long-time top five guys. When you're fighting Tiago Santos and Anthony Smith, and even Dominic Reyes to a certain extent at that point, you're like, but the goal, the crux.

Crown Jewell was John Jones. It was almost like John Jones was there and he's just fighting whoever is there. And we were still holding John Jones in a very high regard. That's Tom Aspinall right now. Like Tom Aspinall is the heavyweight division. If he loses, I mean, come on. Like, what do you, like, where do you go from there? Like, you know, like Cyril Gan becomes chairman.

Like, how quickly do you rebook him with Tom Aspinall? Because what the fuck else do you do? Like, Tom Aspinol is like, as bad as the division is, if Tom Aspinall could come in and wreck Cyrilgan and then fight, I don't know. Waldo Cortez Acosta or whoever else. He puts on a four or five title defenses, breaks records. He's still wrecking dudes left and right.

It won't matter that the division sucks as long as Tom is raining. But if Tom loses, I mean, where in the hell do you go with that? What do you even do with that division? Right. That's why I've argued for a long time. I would love to see John fight Tom. Let's just say hypothetically John beats Tom. John

do five fights next year just beat five heavyweights you're the greatest heavyweight of all time now you beat the the streak what is it three yeah like like beat the street do four fights do it but do it in one fucking year and just get it done

he could fucking do it yeah I agree like take one year out of your life bro and then you know make those mills and go fucking buy a boatload of cocaine you know like you know go do whatever you do after that you know you can retire off that shit bro like like you are we already know you're the greatest like it's i think it's pretty well agreed upon

you know we can argue steroids all day that's the easy argument and you know and i think there there is arguments i guess but pretty well agreed upon the win the title legitimately and just go ahead and go have some easy you beat Daniel Cor Mayer after a Coke Bender I think you can beat fucking I don't know Jalk Na Mada or Curtis Blake I think you can do it bro

No I agree I agree And that's like that's the danger of a fight like this Because you know we talked about like when Amanda Nunes retired There was like that period of time We're like what's gonna happen to like Fed away just died like they just did away The division because it wasn't a real division anyways

But then Bansway were like What do you do like she was like She had beaten every former champion. Rhonda's gone. You know, Misha wasn't what she once was. And Amanda left, and that division kind of suffered for a while. And I think Kayla has kind of come in and like resurrected it. But it took a couple years.

If Tom Aspinol loses to Surreal gone, I don't know what you do. Because there's not like this young up-and-comer. There's not like this young star coming up. There's like, I mean, unless you sign Gable Steven and hope and pray to God, he can develop into a real guy. and that's still like three years away. Like, what do you do? Like, there's just not, that division is, is bad right now.

Like, it's real bad. I would argue there is that may not be three years away for Gable Stevens. Maybe not. Maybe not. He's a performer, and he's that special athlete, right? That guy was alluded to earlier. That dude could come in and be, you know, like a Brock Lesnar and be champion after one fight. Yeah.

And he's the type of guy you do that for, right? Like, Teril Gond beats him. It's like, all right, bring in Gable. You might have to because who else is you got like Tom is, like you said, Tom is the shining star you can build around, even if he's fighting guys that probably don't belong in there with him. You can say, well, Tom Aspinall is just a bad dude. You know, Tom Aspinall is just the best of the world.

But if he loses, man, it's like, oh my God. Like, you know, John, like now that goes away. John's net, like John didn't want to fight him before then. If he loses the serial gun, John's definitely never going to fight Tom Aspinall. And I get it at that point. Why would you? and like surreal gone and becoming champion while I think he's a very I think he's a good fighter he's had multiple opportunities now if he goes out there and somehow pulls off the upset

I mean what is the interest there like is it going to be surreal and Curtis Blaze surreal and Jelton Almeader people are going to be excited about that like at least Tom has a name and some star power and some recognition he loses I mean John John will have a field day like John will have an absolute field day Tom Aspinall loses and and you know John can come back. John really can come back at that point to fight, you know, Pereira. Like,

he doesn't have to worry about Tom at that point. But yeah, like, and I'm not as, like, everyone has pressure, as you said. Like,

Ancolaev, like, if he loses, he may never get another title shot for the rest of his life. Like, he already had to work doubly hard just to get the first one. If he loses and gets knocked out by prayer, there might be like,

oh, trilogy, what's that? We never heard that before. Go fight, you know, somebody else, Angolaev. Pereira,

you know, as you said, he's a star enough. And if he loses, he can go to heavyweight, he can go to middleweight, he's got other options. He's enough of a star to where you can still build other fights with him. For Corey, I agree. Like, you know, Corey's kind of like a little bit in the Ankylai of situation where it's like he's not the loudest guy in the room. You know, he had to work, you know, he got close a couple of times.

But if he loses, I don't think we're going to be shocked because it's Marab. Like, if he loses, it's not really an upset because Marab is just that dude. And if Marab loses, you almost like, well, you're going to give him an automatic rematch because Marab has been wrecking fools and who's going to go in there and fight otherwise. But man, like, it feels like if Tom Aspinall loses, like they just close the book on the heavyweight division. They're like, all right, Cyril Gons are last ever champion division gone. Yeah, I mean, yeah, we say that.

But we also, we know what the UFC is, too. Like, they'll bring in Derek Lewis to fight Cyril Gahn and we'll all fucking watch. You're like, if they made that fight, like Surreal Gond beats him, they made that fight tomorrow. I'm like, bro, it's fucking Derek Lewis. I got to watch this shit. You know, like, even if we're just watching for the potential post-fight antics in the post-fight interview, it's like, imagine Derek Lewis winning a heavyweight title, that post-fight interview, right? Where he actually gets a couple minutes on the mic and not like, okay, we got to move the show along. Like, we will watch that shit.

Yeah, no, we're, we're, but like I said, like it or not. But yeah, us being those in the know and the hardcore fans, we're all going to be like, yeah, we're watching for the post-fight interview, right? Yeah, yeah. This is, this feels like this feels like an absolute must win for Tom Aspinall. He cannot. And I agree with you saying, like, he can't even just go in there and win. He has to go in there and, like, demolish Cyril Gaugh because there's going to be that comparison. Like, John did it in two and a half, two minutes and four seconds.

Can you beat that? Like, I'm not saying he should even think of it. about that, but you know it's going to get brought up. If it ends up being a five-round war and he wins like three rounds to two, people are going to say, oh, well, you won, but, you know, John did it in two minutes. Like, you know, no wonder John didn't want to fight. With that said, you got to think this is the situation John was craving the whole time, right? He beats him in two and a half minutes.

He's like, dust off his shoulders. All right, guys, I'm out for a minute. Like, you know what I mean? And I mean, of course, he beat Steve next, but, you know, he's like, he's like, all right, what can you do, Tom? You know what I mean? Yeah. Because like that's hard to, it's hard to beat a guy in two and a half minutes.

Like, you know, a professional fighter. Like, it's not easy to do. And, you know, if John fought him 10 times, like, he probably wouldn't beat him that fast 10 times, right? It's going to be, you know, that was one in those 10 times that he beats him that fast. But now he did it and now he can say he did it. And if Tom doesn't match it, he's like, well, you suck, Tom. You just fought somebody worse. And the reality is,

no one's put gone out like that, but John, like, he went five rounds with Francis and Gano. He's gone, like, even though I didn't think he won the fight. He went three rounds of Volkov. Like, no one's really put gone out out except for John Jones. If Aspinol goes out there, it has to go all five rounds and win a decision. I don't care how dominant you are. You're going to be like, well, hold on. You couldn't do what John did.

John did it in two and a half minutes or whatever. Yeah. There'll be some of that talk, but of course, Tom will still be the champion. And, yeah, that's, again, still John's only option. Yeah. In my opinion. But a loss would be devastating. A loss would be just catastrophic.

Yeah, for Tom. Yeah. And overall for the heavyweight division. But again, you know, we say that, I mean, you know, how many times have we said, you know, boxing is going to die or, you know, this division's dying, all these different things. And it just never turns out that way. The train keeps rolling. Yeah, no, I agree.

Let me ask you real quick before we get out of here, man. I'm going to put you on the spot here. I'm going to put you in a controversial spot. We've talked very loosely around the whole UFC antitrust lawsuit settlement stuff. We've talked about a little bit. And we've been very honest in this show talked about like the superiority of the UFC and being a UFC fighter and the difference of being in the UFC. And you've been very open about your opinion about how much you appreciate what the UFC has done for you.

But you also have been honest and said like, you know, we've got to be honest when the UFC does bad things. And does antitrust lawsuit settlements out there? Fighters are all getting their payments soon. I assume you're probably going to be getting one of those as well and rightfully so. But I'm sure you saw, maybe you saw what you were gone. Hinato Moikano came out and said like, he turned it down. And there's other ones who did as well. Now, Brendan Shob, who I love Brandon, he ripped the shit out of Hinato.

And he's like, dude, they're not going to, like, they're not going to give you a bonus just because you turn down the money. Like, I don't think Dana's like marking his down his calendars and, oh, we've got to treat Hinata better because he turned down the settlement money. He's like, the money's there. It's gone. They're paying it. You're turning it down does nothing but increase what I get.

So I guess I should thank you. I'm not even trying to point this at Moikano as much as like brand loyalty. Like you were a loyal UFC guy and you continue to, I know you love what they did for you and you continue to be a good guy for them. But you've also been honest. Like there's times when the UFC does things that are messed up or you disagree with. Where is the balancing act with like company loyalty versus like, blind loyalty because like in my conno's case i'm just like dude they're going to give you

$200,000 it it's not that you didn't earn it you did earn it like that's part of this settlement is that you didn't earn it so yeah it seems kind of crazy to me to turn that down it's definitely foolish but the you know well first off i think you have to remember the ufc is a corporation now right back in the day you know it was Dana Lorenzo um Donna, you know, like I can name all these people that, you know, you go to the fight. And it's a little family of people trying to build this thing up and build a great business, right? It's a corporation now. Like, you're not, you're not changing Dana's day at all.

Like, Dana has, I guarantee like, once the lawsuit was settled, Dana did not think about it for one second after that. He claims they didn't think about before that, but I doubt that's actually the case. But after it was settled, like it was a drop in the bucket for them, the amount of money. And it's a fucking write-off for them, too, of all things, which is great. Not a write-up for us. We have to pay taxes on it, but it's a write-off for the UFC, which is fucking insanity to me. Fuck his fucking government. But anyway, with that said, you know, it's from a corporation.

It's like if you, you know, if Apple had a class action lawsuit against them and had to pay out and then you said, no, like, I love my iPhone. It's literally the same thing. And the money is already paid out. Secondly, I question whether that's true or not, too. I think McConnell may be saying that in public, but I don't know that that's truly the case in reality, though. And I question that strongly. knowing some inside things. You know, there's a little WhatsApp group with, I don't know,

I think it was like 500 or 500 or something fighters in there now, you know, all about this lawsuit and everything. And I don't think we're really supposed to speak about it much, but, you know, it's there, whatever. All the fighters know it's there. You know, and a lot of the data and analytics have come out. Like there's very, very few people that have, haven't signed up to get their money.

I doubt that McConnell is one of them, to be honest. Just know what I... Yeah, I mean, and like the public facing of it all, it just... It doesn't make them look better saying that either. I don't think anybody's like, wow, bro, you're fucking brand loyal. Fuck, good for you. Everybody's like, no, bro, you're a fucking idiot for this. Yeah, like, what do you...

like if you're going to impress the UFC and get on their good graces, you're going to do things like when they call you for a short notice fight and you take it. They're going to appreciate that. And they've done that. We've seen that. Like guys have gone and taken short notice fights and they lose, still give them a contract, still give them an opportunity,

like, you know, keep them around, give them another big fight after that. That, they will do that. We've seen that a thousand times. There is a version of loyalty that they will pay off for that. But it's no different than any sport.

Like I'm a big Bengals fan. And we had this whole thing with our first round, draft pitch, Shamar Stewart, didn't sign contract in its dispute. They finally got it done. And he came in and everyone's asked him, like, do you hold any grudges against the Bengals for like, you know, doing this? He's like, no, he's like, it's business. He's like, I'm ready to get to work. I'm ready to play football and get to work. And the Bengals are like, no, we don't hate this guy. Like, we wanted him. We drafted him. We wanted our team. That's business. Like, there's no ill will there. They got the deal done. Now that's just about the business of football.

This is no different. Like, I don't think the U.S. season, I don't think any, I don't think there's a single fighter in the pool of 500, 600,000 fighters are going to get money, where Dana White's like, I can't believe Matt Brown took the money. What a fucking piece of shit. Matt Brown took that money. I can't believe Matt Brown took. He doesn't care. Like, this is the business they're in.

And you know what? Had they actually gone to court and trial and potentially lost, this is a kick in the bucket compared to that. So, like, but even the public facing of it, like, what? What are you really gaining even if you're actually taking the money and you're just saying publicly, I'm not taking the money? Are they marking you down to say, we'll never release you now? Because if he loses three fights in a row,

they're still going to bounce him. They don't care. And it's business. That's how business works. But what I'll add to that too is, you know, what this sport has become, the way that the UFC has built it is not proper.

And what it leads to the way they've built it is, I mean, if you're Dana White, it's proper, right? If you're the business side, right? You sold your business for $4 billion. Like, you did the right thing for yourself, right? And for your company. And that's what, you know, the business doesn't care about doing things right. The business cares about making money.

And that's what the business is there for. But if you look at boxing, which I know boxing has its own issues. There's a million things we can talk about for that, you know, but you look at boxing, even like tennis. golf, all these other things, right? But boxing in particular, because that's the closest to the way the UFC of MMA is, right? But there's boxing inmates, it's not just UFC, right? I still make that mistake sometimes myself, right?

Because it's basically UFC. The promoters should be competing for the fighters. And with the way that the UFC has been structured and built is the fighters are competing for Dana's acknowledgement and Dana's love. and that is completely opposite the way they should be. Just like your bingles analogy, like these guys, if you're a good football player, the teams are competing for you. So you end up making more money.

Like you shouldn't be. Now, if you're like a lower level, yeah, you're competing for the other football players to try to get in, right? Maybe when you're in college or, you know, you're trying out for a team or whatever. But once you're in there, like they should be competing for you. the UFC has reversed this. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be very well understood that this is the proper model for

for individual contractors to make more money, which is what fighters are. And what we have now is, unfortunately, the TKO group is trying to implement this in boxing with their revision of the Ali Act, And they have some absolute scuzzball senators and and politicians that are the biggest pieces of shit on this planet that are involved and helping support this to have clearly no idea what they're talking about and probably don't care to have an idea of what they're talking about because they're getting backdoor deals or, you know, whatever kind of corruption goes on in these politics. They even got the ABC involved and supporting it, which is the most mind-blowing thing I've ever heard. hurt in my fucking life and you know our are I don't know what you call him for the friend

Luke Thomas actually did a great breakdown on this you know for for whatever he is you know take it for what he is it's Luke Thomas there's pros and cons of everyone but on this subject he does phenomenal content and it's interesting because to me because like Luke has practically given up on this type of content because the fighters do not care like moikano for instance is where to circle back around moikano rather than taking money that he fought for as a prize fighter like he wants Dana's love and acknowledgement more than the money thinking that it's going to get him more money in the future and again i'm not sure that that's totally the case because i think he probably did take the money um and that should be a very fucking clear sign of how

flip this script is and how fucked up it really is. And, you know, I've tweeted about this a couple of times. I'll kind of end with this. And usually what I get is a couple of fans. First, you don't get a lot of response from it to begin with because nobody really cares. And it's hard for fighters to care because of the way that the script is and because the narrative and because of, you know, it seems like such an uphill, hopeless battle.

but with that said you know when I tweet about it you get the fans oh you just want more money you're just being greedy you signed a contract blah blah blah so what I would

ask is it anybody that does have that opinion anybody listening anybody that might have any interest at all in this sport and growing it and making it a sustainable long-term model for fighters to make a lot of money and boxers also

just do some research. Like don't even take my word for it. Do a little bit of research. There's tons of info out there. Again, I will refer to Luke Thomas, love them or hate him. He does have some amazing videos on this and breakdowns of it. And that's about all I got to say about it. Well, I mean, and I'll bring it back to football.

Like what's going on to Bengals right now with our defensive end, Trey Hendrickson? Like he said to me $16 million this year, and he's holding out because he knows he's earned more. And he knows he's earned a bigger contract. and people were like, well, you signed a contract. Yes, you did. But that doesn't mean you haven't out-earned your contract. Like, you know, like, I remember, I'm not going to name names.

There was a very prominent UFC fighter who was on the Ultimate Fighter a few years ago, you know, did really well in the show and then got into UFC and did really, really well. But, you know, those ultimate fighter contracts are like 10-fight deals, and you're not making a bunch of money. And the guy and the manager reached out to me, and they're like, hey, do you know how much such-and-such-such-person made for a title fight? told him. And they're like, okay.

And yes, he signed a contract coming out of the ultimate fighter, but he's about to go into like a number one contenders fight or a title fight. I can't remember which one it was. And he was still on that ultimate fighter contract. You've out-earned that contract. You no longer should be making 20 and 20 or 15 and 15 if you're getting into a number one contenders fight or a title fight. Now, yes, you sign that contract.

But that doesn't mean the guy you're fighting is making a million or $500,000 and you're making $15 and $15 because you signed a contract. You've out-earned that contract. You've now out-earned that, and you should be making better money. There's no difference here. Like you talked about, they should be competing for the fighters, not the other way around. You should not be like, I love the UFC, and I love Dana, and I'll do whatever they say, so I'll take 20 and 20. But if you're supposed to be earning 100 and 100, why would you not fight for that?

That's like the whole union argument I get into all the time. Like, I've just given up on that whole idea because I know it's never going to get organized. You're never going to get enough fighters together to say, We'll fight for each other. The union argument, I'll touch on that real quick. That's a tough sell also to the fighters. And understandably so, being that our job is to actually kick the other person out of the organization. Yeah.

Like that's literally our job is to, you know, put you down, right? And to take you out and, you know, so you can't feed your family doing this and you can't walk anymore. And, you know, you have CTE for life. That's our actual job. So for the two of us, you know, for me, I had, what, 27, 28 fights in the UFC. So that's over 50, you know, or, well, that'd be like 28, close to 30 opponents, right? My math is all fucked up. I'm retired.

But that's 30 other guys that are probably, you know, at least at some point in my career, would not want to team up with me and fight for a single cause, right? there like no fuck you i'm on the ufc side they're the one paying me i'm not going to join with you on this so you know it doesn't make any sense uh for a union to ever work with that yeah but i mean even going back and real quick before we get out here just going back to the moikana thing like um you know you can show loyalty but that doesn't mean you should sacrifice your your money or your long-term career your long-term health because the reality is it's a business and like i said If Anato Moikana goes out there, he lost to

Banyl Daryush and he lost to Mokachev a fight he took on short notice. If he goes out and loses the next two in a row and gets finished in both those fights, do you think the UFC is going to look back at this and say, you know what, man, stand up, you didn't take that money, we're going to keep you on. No, if they think you're good and done and cooked and you're not

worth it to them anymore and you're making a lot of money or whatever the case may be, they're going to release you. And guess what? That's their right because they're a business. Just like you have a gym. You have a gym. You have a gym manager and you're expected to demand. Because that contract that you signed that everybody wants to talk about is cited for the UFC, by the way.

Yeah. And they always say, oh, well, you signed it. And it's like, yes. And, you know, what were my other options? You know, if this is the career you want to choose, you could just simply do a different career, which, okay, now we can go into the other part of it, too. It was like, you know, when you're talking about unionizing, coming together, collective bargaining, tons of, you know, whatever, fighting back against UFC or corporations

in any manner whatsoever, you know, you're not talking about a bunch of CPAs or, you know, or a bunch of college-educated people with a lot of options in life. And they're like, you know, this is the option that I wanted. But, you know, I just want more money to do it. Right. It's generally the people, for the most part, the people that are gravitated and attracted to this career are people with traumatic childhoods and, you know, poverty and, you know, I mean, like low education.

Like, that's just a fact of nature, right? We're fucking fighting each other in a cage. Yeah, absolutely. No, you're absolutely right. And like I said, it's going blasting on my football analogy. Tray Henderson wants to get paid, guess what? The Bengals can release him tomorrow. And if he doesn't have guaranteed money on his deal,

they don't pay him a dime. You're gone. So when you're saying, oh, he signed a contract. Well, yeah. But the other side, like right now, Hanata-Wi Kano has lost two in a row. Based on the UFC contract, they could just release him right now.

They don't hold any loyalty to him. They can say, you know what, we're done. See you. Do you think they couldn't do? You think they're not going to do that if that's the, like, that's the reality. So you have to treat it. You have to treat it as a business. And, and, and again, that's where, like, I wish people would do research before they have opinions.

And this is, this is, this goes in a lot of different areas of life, not just this area. Yeah. Like, like, try voting, for instance. Like, like, like, maybe research who that votes going for a little bit and I understand, maybe a little bit, you know. But, like, my brother, for instance, is, uh, he's a lawyer. and he did contract law for a long time. And he explained to me a lot of contract law stuff. And he looked at the UFC contract for me one time.

I mean, it's not like you can change it or do anything about it. And he's like, he's like, I would never sign a contract like this. He's like, this is ridiculous. Yeah. So, yeah, you're right. You know, he was dealing with contracts all day, you know, like, did a lot of like construction stuff. And he even got into politics some and, you know, dealt with like some of their contracts. that they have and stuff.

And he looked at it like, he's like, bro, this is like the most lopsided contract you could possibly make. He's like, this is out of, he's like,

I would never allow my client to sign this. Yeah. And that's, and you said, I was like, well, I signed it for five years. The sports reverse,

like you said, no, we're not bidding for the fighters. We're bidding for the EOC. And that's backwards. You know, backwards how it is. Yeah.

And that's, and that's the argument of the lawsuit is they have a monopoly. And that's why the contracts are the way they are. That's, why the pay is the way that it is and that they have done, they have, you know, broken antitrust law to get there.

And again, when you're Dana, I mean, I think Dana's a cool, nice dude. Like, I've had beers with them, and he's a fucking great dude to sit down and have a beer with.

While you're having that beer, if you'll have, if you cross him, like he'll have someone come up beside you and slice your neck and he'll finish his beer. You know, I mean, that's what a, you know, a guy like him is. And, you know, nothing against that.

I respect that. I love the dude. And if I'm in his position, I'd probably do the same thing. Like, your job is to be, you know, is a slave to the business, right? Like, you are a steward of the business when you are a president or CEO of a business or, you know, in Dana's case, you know, the president. But you are a steward of the business. You are not a steward of the employees.

So what they have done and what? what they do is natural course and what you know they bought out other organizations there's you can't hate them for what they have done but you can fight against it and say that okay it's not right and and there's uh you know when there's no resistance like of course they're going to keep trampling all over everybody you know so all you know the the only thing that this lawsuit i think the only goal of course is money and everything but is to begin a reason resistance. There has to be a balancing act. Right now there's no balancing act. There's only one side doing as they please. And there needs to be a balance on the other side or it's not going to turn out well.

I will say I appreciate the fact that, you know, knowing the list and the fighters that have responded and I'm not going to get names or anything like this, but the vast majority of fighters involved are going to take the money. And I think that says at least a little bit because of everyone's like, no, no, we show loyalty to the UFC. We're turning. That's where maybe you're like, okay, the brainwashing has gone a little too far, but at least most people are taking the money. I don't know, as you said, maybe Moycano is quietly taking the money behind the scenes,

but even the public facing of it, just like you said, no one, no one has come out and been like, man, great job. Way to show your loyalty. Everyone's like, dude, you're a dumbass. Take the money. Yeah, yeah, it's silliness. And he's not doing himself, himself any favors. And I think he's a more intelligent guy.

And then I think at some point in his life, he's probably going to look back and regret it. It's just when that time comes, we don't know. But I think I can say with pretty strong certainty that the day will come when he'll look back and say, you know, I was a fucking idiot for not taking that money. 100%. I agree. I agree. So, and like I said, I know you are going to cash check as you should, Matt Brown. You should absolutely cash that check when it comes to you. You've earned it.

It's not money. They're just giving you a bonus for the hell of it. You earned that money. Yeah, thank you. I hope I did. Prize fighting. And if they give you a prize for the fighting, you take it. 100%.

All right. We're going to get out of here. Obviously, we'll be back next week. We're kind of in a bit of a law. We've got a couple weeks with a couple of apex cars, but we are gearing up, of course, for UFC 319 in Chicago in a few weeks, so we'll get into that. I'm sure there's going to be some other news and notes of stuff happening around the sport we'll get into.

Matt, if people want to check you out, support you, where can they go what can they do I am the immortal Instagram and Twitter the immortal Matt Brown on Facebook and apparently actually at I'm immortal on threads also I always forget that I do have a

threads account attached to my Instagram that I never look at but well maybe like once a month I'm like oh yeah I got this fucking threads app you know I accidentally click on it more than I actually go there like I'll see the thing and I'll click it I go oh shit I'll go to oh yeah I have a threads account

kind of the same thing. I'm like, oh, yeah, I do have this account. I never use it, but it's out there. So, yeah. And obviously, we want to say big thank you to everyone that tunes in the show. Make sure you check us on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify. And, of course, everyone on the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com for Matt Brown. I am Damon.

Martin. We'll see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Writer. Thanks so much for tuning in, and we will see you then.