MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Slams Endeavor’s Lack of Dana White Response, Reacts to Francis Ngannou's UFC Exit

Episode Date: January 17, 2023

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin tackle the latest news from around combat sports including Endeavor’s lack of response to Dana White being caught on video slapping his wife and Francis Ngannou ultimately deciding to sever ties with the UFC. In the aftermath of White’s actions, he has said that he doesn’t know what kind of punishment he’s supposed to face but what about Endeavor? Does the company that owns the UFC have some responsibility to hold White accountable in the wake of his domestic violence episode? Also on the show this week, Brown and Martin discuss the ordeal surrounding Ngannou and the news that he’s officially a free agent after being unable to come to a deal with the UFC. Did the UFC make the right move in letting Ngannou walk? What could be next for Ngannou now that he’s free and clear to sign with any other promotion? Is he headed to boxing? What optiosn are available for him in MMA? We’ll also discuss Jon Jones moving to heavyweight and whether or not his biggest obstacle to becoming champion has already been removed now that Ngannou is out of the UFC. All this and more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Boarding for flight 246 to Toronto is delayed 50 minutes. Ugh, what? Sounds like Ojo time. Play Ojo? Great idea. Feel the fun with all the latest slots in live casino games and with no wagering requirements. What you win is yours to keep groovy. Hey, I won! Feel the fun!

The morning will begin when passenger Fisher is done celebrating. 19 plus Ontario only. Please play responsibly. Concerned by your gambling or that if someone close, you call 1-8665-3-3-2-60 or visit comex Ontario.ca. With Amex Platinum, you have access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. So your experience before takeoff is a taste of what's to come. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Versus the writer. I'm your host. As always, Damon Martin, I am alongside the UFC legend. He's back after a week away. And let me tell you, the show is not the same without him. Matt, the immortal brown. Matt, what's going on? Man.

Glad to be back, bro. That was a long week without you. I miss your face. Dude, I tell you, like, it was weird. Like, listen, we had a great pinch hitter. Paul Felder came in, did a great job on last week's show. Really appreciate him doing the show, Kevin Lee as well. It was awesome to have him.

But, man, it was just so weird. We've been in such a routine of doing the show. It was so weird not to do the show. I was like, this is just bizarre not having Matt on Mondays to talk about fighting. And so many things happened in this time. I thought, like, I've been kind of off social media for the most part, kind of been traveling and dealing with hospital stuff. And man, I come, but every time I looked back, you know,

it was like every, you know, once a day or something. Like, there's just so much insane news. I'm like, could everybody just chill for a minute? Like, it's just January still. It feels like there's some weeks it feels like nothing really happens and we're like, you know, kind of digging around. Like, what should we talk about? And then other times it's like everything ever happens.

And during a downtime, like the UFC was off for a big part of that. there's all this crazy wild stuff happening. And it's just a two-week span that we've been away. It's like craziness. So, yeah, it's quite a world we live in the UFC these days. Yeah. And I think it's going to be a great year for 2020. I think I'm on a fight again probably.

So I'm already gearing up talking to the UFC about some different options. So let's make 20203 a big year, man. Let's get the podcast rolling. Keep it going weekly. and give me a fight. Let's fucking have some fun this year. We'll do some fight camp podcast. That'll be interesting.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, well, that was always been our holdup before, right? It was because we've talked about doing podcasts so many times. And I'm like, man, I got a fight. Like, I'm not doing this shit. But I'm kind of in a group now. It feels comfortable. Like part of my day, it's not like I don't feel I'm going out of my way.

And we do it on Zoom. So it's pretty easy. so I think I can keep it going this time. Yeah, for anyone who doesn't remember when we used to do what was, I mean, we had like, we had like 19 different names for our podcast, but back in the day we did the podcast with you, me, our friend Jeremy Loper, and of course the legend Mark Coleman, we used to go in a radio studio. So we'd all have to go to a radio studio.

We'd sit down. It was an awesome dynamic to all sit down together and do the podcast. But the problem is we all had to travel to this place, which is like for me, you know, 20 minutes away, for you, 20, 25 minutes away. everyone had to gather. We'd end up BSing for 40 minutes before we actually record. Then we record for like two hours. Then we BS again.

So it ended up being like a four or five hour process. Now, it was fun. It was a blast to do it. But, you know, it's a long, it's a huge chunk out of your day. And this is like we jump on Zoom, 45 minutes to an hour and we're out the door. And it's not like really intrusive. And speaking of Mark Coleman, I was just saying I was in this morning. He's got some big things coming up for him.

I think everybody should go follow him on social media. I don't know what his social media is, that at Mark Coleman, probably, Mark D. Coleman maybe. Everybody should follow him, man. There's going to be some cool things he's got coming up. I don't think I'm at liberty to be announcing things for him, but it was really exciting, man.

You know, I think he's around two years of sobriety now, and he's got some really cool things coming up. I think everybody's going to be very excited to see. That's awesome. Yeah, I was actually going to mention we should get Mark on because obviously coming up in February, actually just a couple weeks from now, we're going to be talking about Fador Emilian Inko's retirement fight.

That's his fight with Ryan Bader's coming up in Bellator. And I was like, we should get Koli on the show to talk about those legendary pride days because, you know, Fador. And I think this time it's actually going to stick. Like I think Fador is actually going to retire this time. And of course, you know, he battled with Fador back in the day and had that legendary running pride. I think, you know, maybe we get Koli on the show to talk. Dude, how old is Fadour now? 44, 45?

Okay. And how old's Bader? He's kind of getting up there too, huh? I think he's 39, if I'm not mistaken, 38, 39 right around that range. That's a crazy matchup, too, you know? That's a fight that is kind of interesting, no regardless of how old they are. Just, you know, Bader's been looking good at heavyweight. Yeah, I mean, they fought the first time, and Bader knocked him out, whatever was, like 40.

The fight didn't really get started. He clipped him and caught him, and it was over. And that happens in heavyway. But, yeah, and Fader's looked good his last couple of fights. Like, he had knocked out Tim Johnson, knocked out, not getting rampage, you know, know, maybe Rampage isn't the same rampage you and I knew from years ago, but still super tough dude. I mean, Fador, like I said, you're staying in front of Fador,

he can still knock your block off, you know what I mean? Yeah, he hasn't seemed to have lost a lot of that speed and athleticism that he's always had. So, yeah, I think it's a good matchup. Regardless where they fought again, there wasn't like a, we didn't get to see a lot in that fight. So I'm interested to watch them have like some scrambles and some good fighting.

Yeah, absolutely. So we got a lot to talk about with today, Matt. Of course, we're going to get into the Francis and Gano stuff in a little bit. That was the biggest news story coming out of the weekend. But I'm not going to sit here and rehash everything that's gone on that we've missed. But, you know, of course, the biggest story, the biggest thing that's happened, honestly, over the last couple of weeks that we were away was the entire situation surrounding Dana White, you know, slapping his wife.

We all know the videos out there. I'm not going to sit here and rehash everything. I think that's been talked to death. I'm not going to sit here and just try to create hot takes because we haven't had a chance to talk about it. But the one thing I wanted to focus on, you know, Dana did a couple of press conferences this last week. He did one leading into the UFC Vegas 67 card and then he did one after the card. And the one before is where he really addressed everything. You know, talk talk basically said, you know, no one should be defending me.

Don't defend me. You know, it's not your place to defend me. I did wrong. You know, whatever people are saying about me, they have every right said about me. All that was right. I actually weirdly thought he handled that. very, very well. I said, in a way, he's handling this better than the people around him, being like Endeavour and ESPN, everyone else just kind of staying silent and not even,

no, not even putting out a statement saying, we don't condone these actions, like they just stayed silent. But the one thing I wanted to touch on, he talked about it last week and he talked about it again on Saturday night was when people say, do you feel like you should be punished for this? And he said, well, what would my punishment be? I could have walked away in 2016. I could have walked away during the pandemic. I didn't. Me leaving is harming the fighters. you know, he says more about my personal life and my professional life. And I'll say this right off the top, Matt.

And I said this from the very beginning with Dana. Like, I'm not calling for the guy's head. I'm not saying the guy should be fired and never work again. And listen, fairly, you know, honestly, there are heads of leagues around the world if this happened to them. Roger Goodell, the NFL, like the commissioner of the NFL, like guarantee you of this happening him, he'd be done. He'd be out of a job because the owners vote on the commissioner.

so I almost guarantee he'd be out of a job. But I'm not saying the guy who's loses his job. I'm not. Like, I'm not even saying that. Like, I never said that. You know, listen, people, people make horrible mistakes and do horrible things, and there's a way to come back from that. The problem is, to me, it's the hubris. It's the attitude.

Like, punishing me punishes everyone else. I don't get that part of it. And even if it's a, even if it's a slap on the wrist kind of, you know, kind of a punishment where it's endeavor putting out a statement, we don't condone these actions. know, this is not going to fly in our UFC. We're going to make a huge donation to domestic violence, charities, whatever that is. And Dana's going to step away for 60, 90 days to handle his family. And we're going to, you know, and then he'll return in March or April, whatever. And listen, is that, maybe that behind the scenes?

Will that all be complete BS? Maybe. Like, maybe he'll just be operating at home and just won't be doing interviews. I don't know. But the idea that you could do something like this on camera, get busted for it in that way, and have to take a huge hit publicly, yet the response in terms of your punishment is, well, punishing me punishes everyone else.

That to me, that's the only thing he said in this whole ordeal that I've had an issue with. Everything else he said, don't defend me, don't, you know, I did wrong, stop saying, like, stop trying to make excuses for me. 100% agree. But that thing kind of bug me because I'm like, at this point, the UFC's kind of a well-oiled machine. Matt, you work there, you know.

Not to say Dana doesn't have a job. He does. He plays a huge part in what makes the UFC move. But him stepping away for 30 days, 60 days, I don't think the wheels are going to come off. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot to that, man. First off, I don't work there.

I work for them. That's true. That's true. Contractor, right? Which is a whole other debate, of course. But, you know, technically I don't work there, right? Like, that's a, I wouldn't put it that way for sure. but man you know i think it's a tough one man like because he's kind of right also like what does

punishing him do you know it doesn't really help anyone it doesn't change anything it doesn't um whether it hurts the fighters or not i don't know about that right like um but in some respects i kind of get where we could too if it's a 30 60 90 day punishment it's like okay now you got to deal with some other guy for, you know, a month or two, and then you're going back to Dana in a month or two, you know. And on top of that, I don't know what his day to day is also. I don't know really what he does day today. Of course, we know it's a well-oiled machine, and I agree that any one person could probably step away from the UFC. Probably any group of people could step away and be replaceable, like everybody's replaceable in a business at large.

I have to think. But I also don't see where it helps anything either. Other than what you were just saying, and we haven't even discussed this yet or even texted about it or anything. So I think we're pretty much on the same page here. You know, the whole issue here, in my opinion, I think you're agreeing with what everything I heard you just say

is, you know, endeavor. You know, they're the ones that should be there. they're the ones fucking up here. You know, not just saying silent, right? They haven't done anything, haven't said anything. You know, shame on them. Yeah, I think that's what it comes down to. That's, and honestly, that's been my bigger issue than anything.

It's like, you know, like how, to me, how hard is it to put out a, you know, public relations statement saying we could, we don't condone domestic violence. You know, we, you know, we completely disagree with this. We're going to have conversation with Dana behind the scenes. You know, we don't, I just, it's so bizarre. And in ESPN, like, they've discussed it on their TV shows, and they had to actually discuss it twice. Because the first time, you know, Stephen A. Smith and that group kind of came off, like, almost like, Dana's a great guy. He's such a good guy.

And I'm like, dude, like, I understand. Like, you like, you like the guy. He still did something horrible. And then they redid it. And they're kind of like, and they're like, okay, take two. And then, you know, they kind of went off a little bit more. But, like, ESPN as a company, didn't put out a statement. Turner Sports, who's about to air the slug.

lap fighting league in like a day and a half. Dave said nothing. Again, I'm not saying you have to cut ties with the guy. I'm not saying you have to stop doing business with him. I never said that. And I don't necessarily believe that that's the thing that would happen. But you can at least put out a statement and say, we don't condone these actions.

Like how, Dana's inviting you to do it. He's like, don't defend me, don't you? Whatever you're saying about me is correct. Then why are these companies just at least saying that? Like, how are they not? Like, what mess? Like, here's a great example. And this is like one thing that,

Like really, okay, you remember the whole situation a few years ago with Rihanna, the singer and Chris Brown, that whole domestic violence situation when, you know, that whole thing exploded. WME, William Morris Endeavor, Endeavor is a company. They represent Rihanna. That's her agents. Imagine if Rihanna is going in the office and she's been a very public survivor of domestic violence. And then this company just stays silent when another person on their roster. Because ultimately, Dana's an employee of Endeavor now.

Like he doesn't own the UFC. He is essentially an employee of endeavor. Like that's who he works for. Right. The fact that they, again, I'm not saying the guy should lose his job, but make a statement. Make a, you know, put out a public relations release and just say, hey, we don't condone these actions. That video is terrible, you know, whatever.

And I'm not saying it all goes away, but at least you make an effort. Like, at least you're publicly saying we don't, because by staying silent, you're not necessarily saying we condone this or we have no problem with it. but you're not not not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not you're not evolving him but you're also not even saying it's wrong yeah it's weak it's just very weak uh as a business and that's where i look at you know whether it's already i think he's in the head guy right in charge right and you know that's some of the things you have to do as a leader of a business is of a company is you have to make these hard decisions

and and whether it's you know minimal just a statement i just wonder what these meetings are looking like when they're talking about it. They're sitting down with the board or the different people involved in there said, you know, let's just stay silent. Like, how does the meeting end with that versus, you know, we get, there's something we have to do, right? And again, you know, I just say shame on them, right? Like, it's what it comes down to is, uh, it's just a very, very weak position that

they're taking. And this is what, you know, we talk about it all the time about, uh, the next generation, and how weak they're becoming. And these types of things is what is kind of trickling down and teaching this generation, this sort of weakness. You know, a lot of people may not even tie it directly to that, but I do. And I think that's, you know, what is teaching people weakness.

And again, Dana was the guy who came out the most respectful and honorable of all this, even though he did the crime, which was a terrible thing to do and was wrong. And, you know, we're not going to not. I don't think there's any debate of that. But the way that he stood up and said, I did it. Don't defend me. You know, I deserve whatever I get.

That was an honorable thing to do. The weak people were the ones over top of him that had things that they could do and didn't do anything. Yeah. And like I said, you know, when it comes to the whole punishment thing, like I'm not even, you know, like I just honestly, I thought like, and again, credit to Dana for actually doing a, for actually doing the press conference and just like talking about it. addressing it because my honest opinion was after that whole TMZ thing because TMZ is ultimately a partner in the UFC like they have a business with the UFC so doing that I was like okay you've you've gone to an outlet that's not really going to push you on these questions they're not going to question whatever happened you know even one guy in the interview is like now we heard there was a lot

of alcohol involved like all right let's stop like the whole like you know um so I thought maybe Dana would just you know put his head in the sand and disappear for a month you know we wouldn't because the car coming up this weekend's in Brazil, the next one's in Australia. There are a lot of times where Dana doesn't travel to those events. I just thought maybe we wouldn't really see a lot of Dana until March. You know what I mean? And that would ultimately be his quote unquote punishment. He would just kind of fall off the radar for a couple months.

He came back right away and was like, let's just talk about this. He stood in front of the media. So again, even though I did, the one thing I disagree with him on is that like the whole like, you know, how does it punish me? I disagree with that just because it's a little, to me it's a bit egotistical. to say like punishing me punishes everybody else. But that being said, everything else he says, go ahead, go ahead. I agree on that.

But also, like, would you not say the exact same thing in his position, right? Like, what's he supposed to say, right? Like, he's not being punished and he's basically already accepted any punishment that he gets. So look, you know, whatever happens happens. But he's like, what do you say in that position? Put yourself in his shoes. And that goes, and that goes back to what we're talking about, right? Like, in a way, like, in a way, Dana shouldn't be, Dana's not going to punish himself.

He's the president. Of course he's not going to, like, you know, he's. So why aren't Endeavour? Why aren't, you know, Endeavour's really the worst one here because they are the ones who employ him. And again, I'm not, nowhere am I saying that the guy should be gone. I don't think that at all. And I don't, I don't believe that. But where are they just to say, like, we're going to handle this behind the scenes?

What does that mean? It probably means nothing. You know, it probably means that, you know, you know, they've, you know, they've talked to him about it, you know, basically said if this ever happens again, you know, you're gone, whatever, you know what I mean, like, whatever the case may be. But the fact that they're staying silent, like, yeah, in a way, I agree with what you're saying. Like, what's he supposed to say? Like, I'm going to, you know, I'm suspending myself for 90 days.

Like, he's the president of the UFC. There's no one above him in the UFC. So, yeah, I mean, talk about fumbling the bag. Endeavor is the worst one here because they didn't make a statement. They didn't even try to, like, you know, protect. that they're going to punish him. They didn't, you know, you're right in that way. Because like I said, because everything else that Dana has said has been right.

Don't defend me. Don't make excuses for me. What people have to say, I have to live with this for the rest of my life. All those things are right. And that's my whole point. Dana came out. And, you know, in a time like this, like it's the time it shows who the strong and who the weak are.

Dana came out. I mean, we all know what he did was wrong. And there's no excuse for it. he said it his damn self so everybody can stop making fucking excuses for him right um but at time like this you you see you kind of weed out the week from the strong right data came out strong you know he faced up to it straight away did a press conference put it out there said what he said didn't defend himself um Ari uh endeavor or whatever w me all these guys they come out the weak ones in my opinion right they don't have the integrity or the

morals or, you know, whatever it is to come out and just condemn it and, you know, figure something out from it. Yeah, and that's like I said, that's, you know, even if, even if the punishment is no punishment, the fact that you're at least putting out a statement saying, we don't condone these actions. How hard is that? How do you mess that up? Like, how do you mess that up?

It's really beyond me why they haven't done that. It just doesn't make sense. It doesn't add up. Yeah. Like when a U.S., even like we've seen this in the UFC, when a fighter messes up, or does something stupid or gets arrested or whatever the case may be. The UFC will, you know, usually, you know, some people get released or whatever. We know that happens.

But like sometimes, you know, they'll put out a statement. Like, that's just normal business relations. Like, that's just how it works. Like, they'll put out a statement saying, you know, we don't condone these actions. You know, I mean, now granted, this is a much different situation. Obviously, affects the UFC on a much grander scale. But, like, when the whole James Krause thing happened up, they released a freaking three-page long, Like all this stuff like, you know, basically absolving it.

You know, basically, now, again, that's, I understand it's a totally different situation. But still, like, that's how serious it was. Like, within a day, they're putting out a huge statement saying, like, how does Endeavor fumble this so badly? Like, how do they mess this up so? And I just don't understand it. Like, you are a company that before you own the UFC, you were a, you were an agency. You represented people. You have a public relations department.

You know what I mean? Stars, celebrities do stupid. horrible things all the time. You know what I mean? And people put out, how could you, how do you fumble this so badly? I just don't understand it. I couldn't agree more.

That's exactly what it is, man. It just doesn't add up. It doesn't make sense. And I'm not sure what exactly is going on. So ultimately, I just relegated to weakness, man. They're just being weak about it and poor decision making. And that's what part of being a leader is, part of being a CEO, part of being ahead of a big business.

Like, you're going to have these hard decisions. and when they're not firm on their decision and strike right away, it shows weakness to me. Yeah, I agree. I totally agree. So we'll move beyond that. Of course, the biggest story coming out of the weekend. We all know the news.

John Jones is officially back. He's going to fight Surreal Gone coming up at UFC 286. I think it's the number, 285. 285 in March, in T-Mobile, which, by the way, I do still find it hilarious, that some billboard operator at T-Mobile Arena broke the news before anybody else, which I thought it was hilarious. That was a full-on, like, I can't believe this actually happened. But that was pretty funny.

But then afterwards, we found out the UFC has cut all ties with Francis and Gano. They let him go. They're not going to do a matching period. They're not going to do anything. They've officially made him a free agent. He can sign a new where he wants, and they've stripped him in the heavyweight title, of course. Matt, your reaction when you saw this news, because it was what everyone was buzzing about on Saturday night. it kind of dominated the fights.

We kind of forget there was a fight on Saturday night because everyone was talking about this. So what was your initial reaction when you heard that, you know, John Jones is back. He's fighting Cyril gone and Francis and gone who is out. Yeah, well, my first reaction was I seen John Jones is back. I said, well, why is he not fighting Francis? Right.

Why is he fighting gone? Then you find out Francis is released from his contract. You know, what a unique situation. I don't, I'm not getting this at all either. this is another thing where I'm just kind of befuddled. Why are they letting Ingano go like that? You got the baddest dude in the world. And you couldn't come to terms in some way.

I really don't know what they're thinking. You know, I'm really at a loss here. I got to think they got some sort of plan. I mean, you know, maybe they're kind of banking on John Jones winning. and they'll have him as a heavyweight superstar, which of course I'm picking him to win, and I think he will be a gigantic star at heavyweight, even more so than he is now.

But man, I can't figure it out. I just don't know. It's so bizarre to me because, you know, Francis, like, let me tell us, like Francis Francis has such an incredible story and talking to Francis. Have you talked to Francis much? I don't know if you've really met him or hung out. I've never talked to Francis.

I've never talked to him a few times, you know, whatever. But he is like the nicest guy in the world. Like he is genuinely like as genuinely nice as like, you know, not the fake like, you know, where he's a genuine. And I'll say this. I've said this many times. Like my personal interactions with John Jones has a terrible reputation. Every time, John has been nothing but nice to me.

Like I always in that way will defend John Jones because. John has always been super cool with me whenever I see him. Francis is that dude. Like Francis is an incredibly nice guy. He's also the dude who will hit you and knock your head into the fourth row, you know,

baddest dude in the world. What I don't understand about this whole thing is if his, because what Francis wanted, what we have to imagine he wanted ultimately, it wasn't just about money, okay? Because let's be real outside of him going and doing a boxing match with, let's say,

Tyson Fury or Deonté Wilder, one of those big things. And there's going to be a big pay to attach to that where he's going to make $10, $20, $30 million. If it's mixed martial arts, he's not going to make more money than he would make in the UFC because PFL, one championship, Bellator, they can throw a couple million at him, but they can't throw pay-per-view points at him. And pay-per-view points, if he fights John Jones, that fight is going to do $800,000 buys and he's

going to make $10 million on top of his paycheck. So let's just be honest. Let me start there. You aren't going to make more money in mixed martial arts than you will in the UFC. That being said, but real quick, real quick. So PFO with Jake Paul is talking about doing this 50-50 split. Well, they are, but 50-50 of 75,000 buys doesn't really equate to a lot of it. But you don't think Ingano would get more than 75,000 buys.

I mean. Regardless of who he's fighting. Maybe, but I mean his fight with Cyril Gahn did like 300,000 buys. His fight with Steepay did like 350. It wasn't huge. It wasn't like astronomical. numbers and the problem is is who's he going to fight? I mean, boxing

if he does Deonté Wilder and they go in there and there's just two, yeah, that's a different world. But MMA, I don't know who he's going to fight that people are going to plunk down $70 to watch. That's the problem. I think, sir, I think his first fight whatever he does is going to bring in a lot of eyeballs. But beyond that, like, are we going to pay,

are you, like, as a consumer, you're going to pay $70 to watch him fight Linton Vassel and Bellator. Right, right. And that's not a knock on Linton Vassel. I'm just saying like 50% of, you know, 75,000 buys more than, you know, whatever percent of 300,000, 400,000 buys. It could be, but depending on what you're charging and how many buys. Sure.

You could. And PFL, like I said, that's what they're offering. And, you know, I mean, it would seem like. I'm just wondering if this is where his head's at. Yeah. Well, and here's the thing. If that's ultimately what you want, you want more freedom to do things. and that's been his biggest, you know, statement this entire time is he wanted freedom to do other things and boxing is the one thing he wanted to do.

The UFC, by allowing Connor McGregor to do that back in 2017 to go fight Floyd Mayweather, they opened the door to this. They opened the door to this to allowing, and it's not going to happen all the time. And there's not going to be a long list of fighters who are going to have viable big matchups that would actually be entertained. Like, they're, like, Islam Makachev is not going to suddenly say, you know what, I really want to fight Tank Davis. No, that's not going to happen. We all know that's not going to happen. Like, they're not going to, he's not going to suddenly say, you know what? I really feel like fighting Oscar Day, LaHoy and his re-comeback from retirement. No.

But Francis and Ghanu, the baddest heavyweight on the planet, going out there and trading hands with Deonté Wilder, that's, you know, now, do I think that Francis will do great against high-level boxers? it's probably not going to go well because ultimately, even though heavyweight, I get it, but, you know, boxing, I hate the disrespect to boxing that, like, a guy from MMA can just come in and beat the best boxing. It's probably not going to happen. But if he wants to go secure a bag and get paid $20 million, $30 million to go out there and throw hands with Deonté Wilder for 19 seconds

or however long those two savages can throw bunches at each other, go for it. And the UFC has to shoulder the blame because they let one guy do it. And we all understand Connor's a superstar. He's the biggest thing. We all understand that.

But you open the door. And now you're telling this guy, we won't do for you what we did for Connor. Yeah, that's a good point. You know, I think that's a real good point. Because in whatever organization,

let's say Ingano does go to PFL, he's probably not going to sign exclusively with him, right? So now he could do PFL and boxing, right? Like he's going to certainly have this in his contract now, right? So I think this is, you know, and like you said, even more so than the money. Now he can do all these different things and he can really, you know, he's going to make enough money to be perfectly fine. He's going to make good money. And he's not going to be fighting the John.

He doesn't have to deal with John Jones coming up to heavy weight, right? He doesn't have to deal with steepe coming back and these guys trading their life off to fight him. but what he may end up having to deal with is Tyson Fury, right? If he ends up fighting Fury, that's, you know, I actually think Wilder and Ingana is a great matchup. I think that's a really solid matchup where the two of them could have a really good fight. And I think Wilder's a little underrated as a boxer personally. I think he is better boxing.

He just looks terrible at doing it. And everybody only talks about his power and kind of forgets that he does actually have some skill. but I think Ingano makes a good matchup for him because Wouter needs himself to be hit and we all know what happens when Ngano hits someone and so I think that's actually a great matchup. Him fighting Fury though, I wonder about that one because

we all know what's going to happen but then again we all knew what was going to happen with Floyd and Connor so it gets pretty interesting you know, but I have to think that Engano wants to fight in PFL and boxing. Right? Is this possible? Yeah, I think it's possible.

And I think that's, you know, whatever the, whatever scenario happens, I think that's the most likely the way it plays out is he does, he signs with some MMA organization for a fight or two, but then he's also going to do boxing. Boxing is the thing he's always wanted to do, and we all know that. And I'm not going to fall. Listen, the guy has a dream. And the other part of this, too, is that, look, if he goes out there and beats Deonté Wilder,

beats Tyson Fury, which I highly doubt. But look, this is fighting, bro. The crazy shit happens. And then he goes to PFL and has a fight and has a 50-50 split with him. That does over, you know, that does over 300,000 buys now. I don't care who he fights. He's the biggest star in the world at that point. Absolutely.

He can go out there. And, you know, I keep saying Deonti Wilder, I think that's the fight that would make the most sense. because a Tyson Fury is back now and I don't think he's going to really entertain the kind of weird freak show fight as much, especially with Usik out there. And Tyson, not to say like, you know, just like Floyd, you know, Tyson might entertain it to take a paycheck, sure. But it seems like he's more focused on like establishing himself as like one of the greatest heavyweight boxers of all time right now. At least it seems that way to me. And I would disagree. I think Tyson just personality wise would love that, right?

like he's just a fighter like that and it's an easy payday for him. I think Tyson will be more into it than you think. I think the biggest X factor in all that is Usik, who he brought up at Usik is going to give Tyson a way tough for a fight than anybody is giving him credit for right now, and Usik might beat him. Usick's really, but that's a fight in boxing that will sell. People want to see that fight.

That is the biggest fight you can make right now. Now, would the Francis Inganu fight be easier in terms of, like, less danger than Alexander Usik? Yes. In terms of like, you know, like, Ustik has a legit chance of beating Fury. I don't, I'm being honest to him. I don't give Inganu a great chance of beating Tyson Fury. I mean, yes, it's heavyweights, one, but dude, he got hit by a cement brick in Deonté Wilder. And I would argue Deonté Wilder probably hits just as hard as Francis Igano.

And he, and he kept. Now, I'm not saying, you know, you get hit on the button by the wrong spot. and you're going to go out no matter who hit you. But what I'm saying is, is like, odds are Tyson's Fury would be an astronomical favorite over Francis de Gauner. The hard thing is we've never seen

in Ghana box. So we really don't know how good his boxing is. MMA is not boxing. So we need to see a box first, right? Like it doesn't, we can't even make a determination without seeing a box. Yeah, but Jim and Deonté Wilder,

that's an interesting one. I think that's one that would sell a lot of pay-per-views. There'd be a lot of interest there, too, the heaviest hitters. the history of sports. I mean, not just boxing. MAA like, too, so yeah. And if in a perfect world,

I'd love to see Engano, if he wants to really seriously, wants to go box, like, go beat a lower ranked heavyweight first. I mean, this is what, you know, same thing I said with Connor and the same thing I talk about with any of these guys who want to go box.

Like, go beat one of the lower ranked guys first. I'd love to see, what's it, Angano fight like Stivern or something like that. And, you know, one of these guys, the top 10 that's going to be a tough test and if I lose to him

then he's just, you know, don't try to box again. If he beats him, you know, then maybe we got something on our hands worth watching. Somebody threw out Andy Ruiz, I was like, oh, that's a good idea. Yeah, well, he's fighting, he's fighting soon.

Yeah, well, I'm just saying like that level, you know, guy who's, yeah, the guy who's, you know, good but not too good. But here's the thing, I'll disagree with you there. Well, I agree with you in principle. I do agree with you in principle. On the paycheck side, if you lose to Severn or one of those guys, then it goes, so go get to Deonté Wilder, if I go get to Tyson Fury, if I get your paycheck, get your huge money, I'm fine with all that.

My issue is, is if that's what Francis wanted, he wanted to live his dream and go box, he wanted to box Tyson Fury, he wanted to box Deonti Wilder. I don't understand the UFC's logic in just letting the greatest heavyweight, maybe the greatest heavyweight will ever know. We don't know. We still don't know because he hasn't had a chance to prove it yet. But maybe he is. Like, how do you not want to get in business with this guy to go make that fight?

Like, you did it with Connor. And I understand, like, Tyson's represented by top rank, which means dealing with Bob Aram and Dana and Bob Aram despise each other. And maybe that's what it was behind the scenes. Like, he's like, I'm not going to deal with Bob Aram. I don't know. I don't know who is. I don't know who Deonti Wilder's promoter is. Is it PBC's a premier boxing?

I can't remember who his promoter is. Sure. But like, if that's ultimately what he wanted, and he's like, I'll take the money, I just want to go do this boxing match. I just don't, I don't get why you wouldn't say, okay, like, you did it once, and it's not going to be in every guy, every guy and every girl is not going to get this same thing because every guy and every girl isn't going to get the same opportunity. Let's be honest about that.

Like not everyone, as I said, like I said, there's not going to be a scenario where they're like, you know what, Al Jermaine Sterling, you've looked pretty good, we're going to match of a tank Davis or whatever the weight class you know it's not going to happen um this is one that could happen and it would get this guy a 30 40 million dollar payday whatever it is i just i don't understand the logic and and here's here's and i'll say this matt and here's where it really here's the thing that bothers me most about this and i know everyone's been talking about this francis wanted money but he also wanted freedom to do other things we all know that Francis has said that publicly numerous times.

He said it on interviews and whatever. Why do we always have to get this narrative from Dana of him saying, well, he wanted to get paid more money to fight lesser competition. And that's not what we do here. He wanted to leave to fight. Now, could I argue and say that Francis will not face the same level of competition outside the UFC in heavyweights? Yeah, I could see that.

I understand because there's heavyweight's not a deep. pool. Like, it's just not. Like, you're not going to go fight the random dude. Like, was anti-Dilesia, I think is his name. The guy who won the heavyweight in PFL. Like, are we going to pretend that dude is on the same level as Steep A or, you know, John Jones or even Surreal Gone or Curtis Blades or Sergey Pavlin? No, we're not going to pretend that. We're not going to pretend that. We're not going to pretend that that dude is on the same level. But to suggest that he's leaving, surely because he wants to fight lesser competition is so ridiculous. And I don't understand. understand that narrative.

And that narrative worked for other guys, for sure, right? Like, whether it was true or not, like, we could kind of buy into it a little bit, right? With Francis Ingano, it's like, wait a minute. This dude just beat the best heavy weights in the world. Like, did you see what he did, Alistar Overeem? I don't think he's scared of anyone, right? Yeah. Yeah, he beats steep, handedly, right?

I mean, come on, man. I don't think anybody is buying into that for Francis. Yeah, just don't say it. Like, stop that. He does it every time. Like, when Dustin Porreys supposedly didn't want to fight some, but Tony Ferguson or some, he came out, he's like, he just doesn't want to fight him.

Maybe he doesn't like that fight him. I'm like, come on, it's Dustin Porriere. Like, the dude fights everyone, anyone. He's never, like, just stop. Like, do, are there times when fighters turn down fights because they don't like a matchup? Of course that happens. We all know that. It happens.

But to this narrative that they're afraid, dude, you step in a cage with another human being knowing full well you're going to get, you could potentially get your head knocked off or a limb broken. You step to suggest that he's somehow, he's like, he doesn't say he's scared, but he kind of says he's scared, right? Like that's kind of the narrative you're building when you're saying like, well, he wants to get paid more for lesser competition.

And that's not what we do here. I'm like, come on, Dana. We all know better than that. It's sort of a political thing. I think where, I mean, if you think about politicians or, you know, Dana speaking, you know, you're speaking to the lowest common denominator here, right? You're not speaking to the people that are educated and, right? Like, you're speaking to the casuals.

Like, those are the people that you're pandering to the most when you're saying things like that. And, you know, a lot of them probably believe it, to be honest, right? Like, they'll buy into anything because they don't know the ins and outs of it. But, you know, it's very similar to, you know, how politicians say different things, right? They're just saying things that the mainstream mass people are going to buy into. And those that really know, you know, like me and you, we know Francis isn't scared of anyone. And, you know, we'll have listeners on here that will understand and they'll listen to us and say, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, they're right. But, you know, there's millions of other people out there that are going to buy into it probably.

Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first... There, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. A new era of fitness is here. Introducing the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus,

powered by Peloton IQ. Built for breakthroughs, with personalized workout plans, real-time insights, and endless ways to make. move. Lift with confidence. While Peloton IQ counts reps, corrects form, and tracks your progress. Let yourself run, lift, flow, and go. Explore the new Peloton cross-training tread plus at OnePeloton.ca. Yeah, I want to talk about John Jones at heavyweight in a second, but last thing

on Francis, I want to say this. You know, the UFC has rarely lost a fighter they either wanted or wanted to keep. We all know, of course, Dana brought it up with Fador. That was a big one years ago. and to be honest, and I'll say I know it's a controversial statement now, and I'll say, like, I don't think losing Fador was the worst thing ever. Like, I never, I love Fador, you will know, I, I'm a huge Fador fan, and I loved watching him

a pride, and the dude is still going at 45 or whatever he's doing right now, but I never I never quite, like, I never thought that, like, would I have loved to see Fador in the UFC, of course, but I never thought that was like, because he was never in the UFC, right? Like, we still have, like, the unanswered question, and he eventually

fought for Bisi Ovidum, he lost, he had a couple other losses in there and maybe that would have happened to the UFC, I don't know. But I can't imagine out of everyone that's ever been out there, free agent or fighter who's been in the UFC and left. And I'm talking about guys like Eddie Alvarez or Benson Henderson, guys who have been champions, guys who have been there. Matt, am I wrong in saying this is the biggest loss the UFC's ever had in terms of losing a fighter who's left the organization who they wanted to keep and they couldn't keep?

Like, I can't think of another scenario where there's been anyone of this level. right like of this level francis freaking the heavyweight champion the baddest dude on the planet and he's gone like that's the biggest loss and probably in his prime too right i mean i think his age is questionable you know like whether it's true that he's what 37 right i think he's like 34 i think he's like 33 or 34 or something like that yeah i think that maybe i just follow too much conspiracy bullshit on twitter but there's a lot of people saying like dude he's probably more like 41 or 42. But whatever.

Who cares? I can't think of a bigger loss either. I can't think of another guy who, again, I think Francis is either in his prime or very close to his prime, right? He's champion. He's smashed the top guys in his weight class. So I can't think of anyone. And I just got to wonder if, you know,

his Francis, when he says he wants the freedom, is he equating that freedom to more money? Is that what he sees? Like, okay, I can do what I want and I can live or die on my own work, right? Where he knows in the UFC, you know, this is his only option, right? He's got to fight the next toughest guy

and that's how you make money, right? And however much they're able to pump up the next guy is going to depend on how much money he can make. Where now at least he has options. And if he goes out there and does some great things, he can be, you know, one of the wealthiest athletes in the world. If he goes out and, you know, maybe loses or something, you know, of course, his stock will go down and it won't be that much.

But it seems to me what I take from is, like, he's betting on himself here. And he thinks he's going to go do some great things. And he wants to have that availability to do that. Yeah. And listen, I think Francis is probably one of the only guys in the sports that could do that right now, right? like where he can bet on himself and know there's going to be big paychecks out there. Like, PFL is going to roll out the brink truck to sign him.

Bellator should be talking to like the people at Paramount. But like, what assets can we sell to sign Francis and Ghana? Yeah. You know, all these organizations. And again, even like Deonté Wilder, like if I'm Deonti Wilder, I would take to Twitter right now and call him out. Like, Francis, you're free.

Let's go. Because I love Deontay. I agree with you. I think he's a much better boxer people give him credit for, but he's lost to Tyson a couple of times. and the last one really didn't go well for him. You know, could he fight Anthony Joshua and make a bag? Sure, he could do that.

But what would be a higher, you know, a higher, I mean, is there risk? Of course there's risk. But let's be honest, Deonti Wilder's still going to be a pretty heavy favorite to beat Francis. Nganu, low risk, high reward. I mean, you're going to, because the attention that Francis is going to bring, you're going to get more from that than any other fight you're going to have in boxing right now, probably. Like, yeah, you could go to the UK and fight Anthony Joshua would be a big fight, but is it going to,

is it going to translate the pay-per-view buys? I don't know that there's going to be a lot of people. I mean, yeah, you'll sell some, but I think Francis would sell more is what I'm getting at. I think he goes and fights Anthony Joshua, which I'm picking Joshua to lose to Anthony, Andy Ruiz too. So, you know, his stock's going to start going down probably.

But if he were to go fight Anthony Joshua in the UK, that would do, massive pay-per-view buys. Anthony Joshua just sells in the UK, period. Yeah. It doesn't matter who he's fighting, and he comes in and fights Francis Angato. That does massive.

I'm saying, like, Deonté fighting Anthony Joshua. Like, it would be a big fight, but I'm saying, like, I think Deonté and Francis would do better and in the U.S. where you get more money. You're going to get more money. Because Anthony Joshua is a star in the UK, but the UK doesn't sell pay-per-views to the same price they do over here. Over in the UK, I'd pay-per-views like 20 bucks.

You know what I mean? I didn't know that. Okay. So you could sell a million over there. There's a lot of 90,000 percent arena, though. Yeah, they do. They do that. But I think like over here, you could sell, you know,

600,000 pay-per-view buys and make way more money because obviously fighters here in boxing get a much bigger split of the purse. But what I'm saying, but what I'm saying, if I'm Deonté Wilder. Okay. And also Anthony Joshua, for as many flaws as he has, he's still a dangerous boxer, right? Francis, you take less risk.

Like Francis, you just have to worry about him way laying you with a big punch. He's not, we don't, and we don't know what we're getting in Francis as a boxer. And chances are on day one you're not going to get, you're not going to face as much danger and risk fighting Francis as you would, let's say, Anthony Joshua. Because for all the faults in Anthony Joshua has, he's still a pretty decent boxer. And fighting Francis Ngano, you get a big, big paycheck. Guarantee $30 million, whatever. So if I'm Deonté Wilder, I'm calling out Francis today. Like I'm calling him out saying let's go big boy.

Let's go. And Francis, to hit to your point, he's one of the only guys outside of maybe Connor and a couple other people right now who could do that, right? Like most people don't have the leverage to go out and demand a two or three million dollar paid or go to PFL and say, open up that checkbook, boys. You're going to be paying me seven figures in a lot of ways. So I'm rooting for Francis in that way because he's one of the only guys who could do this. Because let's be, I know it's going to sound terrible.

I'm using this example, but like at this stage of like, you know, Parker Porter, who is a UFC heavyweight, said, you know what? I'm betting on myself. I'm going to go and bet on myself and I'm going to get, come on. No one's going to pay you. You might sign a PFL and they'll give you a chance to enter the tournament for a million dollars, but you ain't getting a million up front. Now, the only other part that we haven't really talked about about this,

maybe I'm going out on limb here, but with Jake Paul, being involved in boxing now and being involved with the PFL now, does he make some moves with Francis, put him on one of his paper views together, does a PFL, something, I don't know what it would look like, but did they all somehow work together and all get rich together? Should 100%. They should team up tomorrow. They should absolutely team up tomorrow.

Yeah. What better, what is that work? Is Jake Paul, he's with Triller, right? No, he's not what he was he basically he does a one he does a one fight deal every time with showtime Showtime's been his promoter but just like in boxing you know it's like a one time thing like they're not signing like a long term deal so from my understanding he can pretty much go where he wants showtime's just been his promoter over the last couple of fights but now he does have some sort of deal with PFL so maybe that's where he's going to box now too I don't know I don't know

the ins and outs of that but yeah I agree with you Jake Paul and Jake Paul and Francis they did a they did a TV show together and they were kind of talking about like this uh this is like a year ago or like eight months ago they were doing a show where they were talking about this whole you know collective bargaining and and unions in the UFC and the freedom of UFC doesn't give you they seem to be a little bit of kindred spirits where Dana White was concerned team up team up do it that's what that's what's wondering is something going on that no one's really talked about yet that I haven't heard at least I haven't heard anything about no one's mentioned so just to bring that up and throw that out there no you're

absolutely right. And listen, Jake Paul fighting Tommy Fury and Francis fighting Deonté Wilder, that is a massive pay-per-view. Massive. You know, massive, big as it gets. Yeah, do it. You know, outside of, I don't know, Fury versus Mike Tyson. Yeah. Yeah, do it. And again, I'm rooting for Francis to make it now. Long term, is there a chance Francis might struggle to find competition if he does, let's say, fights Deonté Wilder and loses, and then he's in PFL fighting, you know, anti-delisia. Is he going to eventually run out of competition because heavyweight's just not that deep? Sure, it's possible.

But that's two years down the road. And guess what? Two years down the road, he might be retired with a freaking bag as big as a house. You know what I mean? He might have like $50 million to bank and say, I'm piecing out, boys. And the only one that I want to happen that will absolutely not happen, probably completely out of question. But what I would actually like to see out of this whole thing is in glory, Alistar Overeign,

versus Francis and Ghana. Yeah, I'd like see Rico Verhoven. Rico Verhoeven and Francis would be interesting. Yeah, I mean, I'd just like to see it only because of what happened with Alistar the first time. Oh, sure. Yeah, see it in. Yeah, I should be matched under Alice Starr's preferred rule set. But, yeah, even I didn't think about Berhoeven.

God, yeah, what a fight that would be too, huh? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. The other piece of this puzzle, Matt, is, of course, John Jones is officially back. He's going to fight Cyril Gone in March. I said this when we did our year preview show a couple weeks back, and I said that, you know, I, you know, Francis was, to me, Francis was the scariest guy to fight John because Francis has that incredible one-punch knockout power that could just, it levels the playing field.

As good as John Jones is, it levels the playing field against anybody. And all you need to do is clip you one time and you're done. I like Cyril Gahn very much. He's an incredibly talented guy. But he got taken down at will by Francis Inganu. A 260 pound John Jones, unless he's moving in there like a slug because he's so heavy now. Dude, remember when John Jones fought Brandon Vera and he took him down and just elbowed his head into the middle of the canvas? I have a little bit of a feeling that's how this fight's going to go.

And I like Surreal Gone very much. But if John Jones is smart and I think John Jones is very smart in the cage, does a lot of stupid things outside the cage. Inside the cage, dude, his fight IQ is astronomical. I think he takes Cyril, gone down, and elbows him into oblivion. And listen, the UFC is bet big on John Jones before and come up snake eyes, because John's made a lot of dumb mistakes. But if John's got his act together and things are going well for him, I do think there's more danger in heavyweight, guys like Curtis Blades who can wrestle,

a guy like Sergey Pavlovich, who's got that huge one-punch knockout power. But John Jones, he could. I mean, like I said, how do you, how do you? you make people forget about Francis de Gano? You throw John Jones and they're heavyweights. Yep, I couldn't agree more. And I think the other thing, too, is that I think

John Jones is going over with Henry Suhito going to have him coach him. And I think Henry, that's a great matchup for John in terms of a guy who he can really relate to and a guy that, you know, can be a positive influence on him and help him not only

in the cage, but in life, to, you know, I think that's going to be a great match as training partners, coaches, however you want to put it. And John Jones is going to go in and wreck the heavyweight division, you know, without Ingano there. I think Ingano was the only chance of beating John Jones. Unfortunately for Gone, like you said, it's just a terrible matchup, man. Like, what's he going to?

John's just too smart. Like you said, he's going to find a way to take him down. And it's going to be very, very bad news. gone has years and years to go to catch up if he ever could catch up to john chose on the ground which is pretty unlikely and uh yeah it's going to be a pretty you know the only thing is john is hitable and gone is good at hitting people so you know i think that's you know there's a there's like gone has a chance like i'm not going to say that that john's just going to walk right through him and blow him out like gone has a chance and despite there is a fight there is a chance and there is a chance

there is a path to victory for him. But it's really dependent on Jones, right? If he decides that he's going to remove all paths to victory, I think he can. If he gets a little cocky or, you know, wants to try to test himself in Don's waters, then it's going to, you know, could be a tough night for John. But I'm right there with you. I think he's going to pick the path to an easy victory. He's going to take John down and it's going to be a bad night for God.

Yeah, and remember when John is motivated, like, I agree. One thing Paul Felders out on the show last week, and I agree with, he's like, I think when John was fighting Tiago Santos, and he was fighting Dominic Reyes, and he's fighting Anthony Smith, and I love all those guys, there's nothing against them.

But I think at that point, John's just bored. You know, John was bored. When you look like, he had that really close fight with Alexander Gustafson the first time, and he's like, man, he made a mistake.

He openly said, I didn't train for this guy, I didn't get ready for this guy, and it nearly cost me. What happened in the rematch? John destroyed Gustafson, absolutely destroyed. destroyed him.

I think John is going to be more motivated now because these guys are more dangerous. Like there wasn't as much inherent risk fighting Anthony Smith. There wasn't as much inherent risk fighting Tiago Santos. Even though I know Santos has big power, I get all that, but still, you know, he beat, he already beaten the legends. He went through Shogun. He went through Rampage. You went through Daniel Cormier.

He went through all the legends. And now he's just fighting the next guy. And I don't think John's into just fighting the next guy. I still do think at his best The Stebe matchup is interesting because Steve be's got the wrestling He's got heavy hands

You know it's interesting And I think you know Curtis Blades is interesting I think Curtis has incredible wrestling He's a big guy You know he's got good He's gotten much better hands recently I think again your guy

Sergei Pavlovich will be interesting But the one guy I gave a legitimate chance To beat John Jones He's not there anymore Yeah yeah Yeah That's exactly right.

And that's the thing. John can outrestle all these guys, I think. That's the big problem that they all have. I mean, when we watched him fight Daniel Cormier and he stuff, Cormier's takedowns like it was nothing. And then took Cormier down, like, I don't put anything past John Jones now. And then come to find out he was on a Coke binge the week before. I mean, you can't put anything past this guy, man.

Yeah, it's going to be exciting to watch him in the heavyweight division. And I'm not seeing anybody giving him a real hard match, to be honest. Yeah, I mean, he's going to be a favorite against everybody. You know my feelings on Stevie Meotchich. Love him. Ohio legend. Your guy, Sergey, I think he's a force. I think he's a really, really fun guy to watch Curtis Blades,

maybe the most underrated heavyweight in the sport right now. Tom Aspinall, a guy that I know you're very high on, we've talked about him, but nobody's going to be favored to be John Jones, and that's the reality. Like, I think Francis, John was, yeah, no, no, and John, you bet John, I bet. John was a, John's a massive dude. Like, he's not, he's not a guy who's going to be going up to heavyweight and giving up size. Like, John is a huge guy, you know what I mean? Like, John's not going to be giving up reach or size or, or, you know, you could argue power, but I had, The way he's working out and getting ready to fight it, it sure looks like he's putting on power.

Yeah, and he's done the right things. He's taking his time to move up to heavy weight. It wasn't a one fight that, you know, six months later he's fighting a heavyweight. Like it's been how many years now, you know, so he's had time to pack on this weight and get adjusted to it, get the cardio there. So, so the real, the only real question is,

you know, is John's cardio going to hold up a heavy weight? is he going to be a little slower heavyweight? These are the only real questions, but skill for skill, John Jones is by far the best guy out there at heavyweight now. I think talent-wise, to me it comes down to two people. It's Demetrius Johnson and John Jones in terms of the most talented fighters I've ever seen. And there's just some things you can't overcome in that.

You know what I mean? Like talent-wise, like at heavyweight, there's just no one is talented as John Jones. Now, again, it's heavyweight. can you get clipped can you get caught can you get a you know what i mean like if when when derrick lewis caught uh for curtis blades like i think if they fought again and fought 10 more times i pick curtis blades to win every single time but in that one instance he made a mistake he ducked his head and derrick lewis hit him with the uppercut and knocked him out that could happen absolutely

um but if you're just talking about like matchup wise you know it's like demetrius like just no one's at his weight class no one should beat demetre's johnson like You just shouldn't happen. And I agree with you on Henry Sehuto too. I think in the long run, Henry may end up being a better coach and he is a fighter. And he's a really good fighter. Like he seems to be an incredible coach. Yeah.

I mean, I just all is, and listen. And with John Jones having someone like, I think there's a big difference between having, you know, nothing against Greg Jackson. But, you know,

Greg Jackson is a martial arts coach and is a guy who, um, he wasn't really a fighter, you know, didn't really do. Henry Sehudo was a gold medalist. Like John has a certain level of respect for him that you can't get any

other way other than going out there and getting a gold medal. So, you know, I think that that level of respect is going to be a big factor in Henry coaching John. Yeah. So outside of like a weird upset, we're both kind of agreeing no one at Heavyway in the EOSC right now

beats John Jones. Yeah, that's exactly because one of the big things I've noticed about John is, you know, he's had some close fights and, you know, hasn't always dominated everyone. But the one thing that I've noticed by him is he never makes the big mistake, right? He doesn't, like Curtis Blades made a big mistake. You were just talking about put his head down, you know, wrong time, wrong spot. John just never makes those big mistakes that are fighting mistakes.

He'll get hit, make small mistakes. Maybe he gets a little bit, lash the day's goal times. Maybe he doesn't take it so serious. Maybe he's a little overconfident. maybe, you know, whatever it is. But he never makes that mistake, which, I mean, I can look at my own career. Like, I've made those big mistakes before, right? And you just don't see John do that.

He never does a fight-ending mistake. It was almost like if you watch the Bengals Ravens game, right? Like Lamar Huntley made the big mistake that changed the game, right? John just doesn't do that. You have to force him to make a big mistake. And that's not an easy task against the guy's skill to. him and his athletic is him. And, you know, we all say defense wins championships.

And, again, he never makes that big defensive air where you're looking at having an ability to win the fight. The only time actually that he actually did make a mistake that was that big was against Vitor Belfort that I can think of. You know, he gave up his arm, Vitor took the arm. John gutted out and got through it. But, you know, that was a very rare thing. and I think he, you know, who knows what was going on.

John's head looked to me like he was just completely relaxed and was like, dude, I'm like, this is going to be real bad for you. And then Vitor just, I mean, you know, it's Vitor Bellfort, right? He just popped it out of nowhere, you know, exploded into it. But that is so rare for John Jones from everything I've ever seen from him. Yeah, we can talk about all the dumb things he's done outside the cage, but inside the cage he might be the smartest fighter ever. Like, honestly, like he may be like fight IQ.

We talk about fight IQ all the time. John Jones may be head and shoulders above everybody. Like that may be his greatest asset. You know what I mean? He is smarter than you in the cage. And it's going to be hard for anyone to beat him in heavyweight. Like I said, Francis was the one guy. I don't know that anyone else does it.

Yeah, the only one I compared to him fight IQ wise is probably GSP. Yeah. Oh, yeah, GSP is there. And I give Demetrius, you know, like I said, I think talent-wise Demetrius is up there as well. I just think that those guys like the, and there's a reason why GSP, after the

Matt Serra fight, he rarely he never, you know, he went out there and beat everybody you know, at their own game and dominated and yeah, I mean. Yeah, well, I mean, we're talking about fight IQ which is a different thing than

you know, skill for skill. And when I see Demetri, it's not so much fight IQ ability to adjust and see things. He's just that much better than everybody. Yeah. That's what I see there. With guys like Jones and GSP, I do see more fight IQ there personally. Again, so it's just a difference, you know, where, you know, Demetrius is just the best fighter in history, in my opinion.

But it's not necessarily because of his fight IQ, I don't think. Whereas GSP in particular has really struck me as, you know, a smart game planner. And not just like, okay, the game players, we're going to take him down, like how he sets up. to take down, how he gets to the take down, how he puts his feet in position, you know, different things like that. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. Real quick, before we get out of here, Matt, we do have the first UFC pay-per-view of the year coming up in a matter of days. I want to get a couple quick picks from us because, of course, we have two title fights at the top of the card, the flyweight title fight between Deveson Figuero and Brandon Moreno, and of course, the new light

heavyweight title fight between Glover Tashara and Jamal Hill. I'm not going to spend a ton of time. we're just going to do some pictures real quick. So this is part four of Moreno Figurado. The first three fights have all been great. Obviously, there was the one fight that was a bit lopsided when Moreno beat him pretty handily. And I think a lot of that, of course, figurato seemed to have a really terrible weight cut for that one. Not making excuses.

It just seemed like that's what happened. The other ones, of course, one was a draw and then Figurato eeked out a really close decision in the other one. Matt, which way are you leaning in this one? Are we going to see Figgy Smalls remain champion? or is Moreno going to get the job done and finally put an end to this was a quadrology or whatever the hell you call it for four times?

You know, I think Davidson should win this fight. I think he has the skills and the ability to win the fight. But I've said that on all their fights. Marino just, God, he finds a way to fucking pull it out, man. And he's the guy that seems to be getting better every single time he goes out there. And he's the guy who's got heart for day. and just fights like a fucking ferocious honey badger.

So I'm actually going to go with Moreno, even though I think Figurato should be able to do it. But I think Moreno, man, he's just getting better. And I think he's going to show even more new things this time. And, you know, he's got the heart of line, man. I agree on everything you just said, but I'm still sticking with Figurato. Two things, I think playing in his factory is fighting at home in Brazil. The crowd's going to be on his side.

know, and whether you like it or not, you know, crowd rising and falling from punches and things like that. I still think it does affect judging sometimes when the big swing and a miss can still look like a punch and the judge is like, ooh, he must have hit him. So there's one thing, but also, too, I do take into account that Brandon lost his head coach. You know, I mean, listen, you know, James Krause was his head coach. It seemed like they had a really strong relationship built up and he's gone now. And it's just, it's a weird one because it all happened relatively soon.

I know he's been working with Saif from down at 4 to 7M. Saif is an incredible head coach, incredible head coach. But, you know, two months of working with the guy, you're going to have the same rhythm, the same patterns, the same corner work, all the things you had. So I think that's a factor. So I'm going with Figy Smalls. I think I think Figure Ada pulls it out.

I think it's going to be another close fight. I agree with you. I think it's going to be like one of those 48, 47 kind of decisions. But I'm going to go with Figure Ada to pull it out. Other one is the main event, of course, Glover to Cher, the ageless wonder that is Glover to Sherer, taken on Jamal Hill. kind of a shorter notice fight, of course.

This fight came together after the December card when Magamad Ankleyev and Jan Blahovic didn't get to finalize their fight. So Matt, which way are you lean in Glover or Jamal Hill? I'm definitely leaning with Glover on this one. I think he's just a more skill and more experienced fighter, and I think he's going to come in shape and ready to fight. And I think he's going to do really great. You know, Jamal Hill is an absolute savage too.

so, you know, can't take nothing away from him. And I just lean, I think it's more of an instinctual leaning on this one than most times. My gut tells me Glover's going to pull this one out. I agree. I'm going Glover to share as well. I think this is, I think Jamal Hill is an incredibly talented guy and super dangerous. He's a knockout artist. We've seen that.

But I think this is still just a little bit too much too soon for him. Like I think he was still one, maybe two fights away from this. You know what I mean? I think ideally, like he had that five with Anthony Smith booked. If we would have beat Anthony and then maybe beaten one more, maybe he would have beaten, you know, a Magermanical Iowa, you know, or one of those guys, like one of those other upper echelon top two, top three guys, then we'd be there.

But I think this might be just a bit too much too soon for him. I think he's still a fighter two away from that level. And I still have faith in the old dog, man, Glover Tashara. Like I said, you look at that ground game. You look at his striking. I just think he's got a little bit of gas left in that tank. And I think Glover's going to pull it out and become champ again. Yeah, and I think that what you just said was what I left out.

I think Glover just has a lot more ways to win, too. I think that's kind of the icing on the cake here. Yeah, absolutely. All right, that is our show for this week, Matt. We'll be back next week. Of course, you'll be back next week. The show is not the same without you, so don't go away again, please. And we appreciate everyone tuning in to the show.

Matt, where can people check out? People supporting you, of course. I know you were just in L.A. with one of your sponsors working. So where can people check out what you got going on? Yeah. I am The Immortal on Facebook and Twitter, Instagram, at The Immortal Coffee, at the immortal coffee.

At the immortal coffee.com. Yeah. And of course I got my dynamic striking instructionals and check out. Working on building my own online instructional right now, actually. Full system, full curriculum from, striking and clenching, wrestling,

jujitsu, fitness, a little bit everything. And my response that brought me out to L.A. you have to think that

routine. R-O-O-T-I-N-E. That's a multivitamin made specifically for your own body, which is they take your blood and they take your saliva and they see what you're deficient in, see what you're

high-end, see how your DNA accepts different minerals and vitamins, and they make a multivitamin, multi-mineral specifically for your own body. Love it, love it. Matt, we'll be back next week with another day for the Fighterverse Ray. Make sure you check us out on all of your favorite podcast

platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and of course you can always find us over on MMAFighting.com. For Matt Brown, I'm Damon, Martin. Thanks so much for tuning in. We'll see you next week. Thank you.