MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Still Doesn’t Buy Conor McGregor Returning to Fight Again

Episode Date: August 5, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin debate who actually has the better chance of competing again — Jon Jones or Conor McGregor? Plus we’ll discuss Robert Whittaker’s future and if he should contemplate retirement now rather than later? And Brock Lesnar is back in WWE despite allegations naming him in a lawsuit against Vince McMahon but is anyone surprised he’s returning? All that and more on the latest episode! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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legend Matt Brown and Matt. Here we are back after a wonderful apex weekend. We got another apex weekend ahead of us before we finally get to UFC 319. But there's some other stuff going on. Let me first start off the show by saying congratulations to your guy, Josiah Harold, getting a win over the weekend.

Bro, well, yeah. I don't know what's got to take to get this guy to the UFC man like I don't know if they got a problem or I can't figure it out bro 10 and no nine finishes this guy fought last weekend was absolutely UFC level this guy was a killer he was good um and yeah so I don't know what else we got to do man they said well maybe a short notice thing or something I'm like just sign the guy the kid man like he's an absolute killer is going to be a world champion and I don't know if they don't see it or you know is well as well what it is. But yeah, with that said, so I've ended up missing the Apex card.

Sometimes I have my friends, they'll send me these messages like, like, who should I bet on, you know? And I didn't recognize a single person on this card. Like, not a single person. I mean, I kind of recognize Tara, Tara, however you say it. Yeah. But I remember watching them fight, but anyway. Rough times out there for these Apes. I don't know. I recognize Neil. I forget about that. No pot. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, there was a couple, there was a couple of names on there, but it was not much. And I mean, I'll be honest, I wasn't actually got Saturday off from work, so I didn't watch everything. I watched a couple of main card fights. So there was a couple, you know, a couple of fighting. I didn't give them two five of the nights, which those are both bangers. But it's one of those things that I'm certainly, I think Chris Duncan, I think the other guy was Matush Rebecca, like good fights. But I'm always a big believer in like stakes matter.

And like a great fight is a great fight. but like it matters more of like two top 10 guys or two top 15 guys or whatever when it's not that it just kind of and then like you know Tasu Yutair who you mentioned like he had a you know pretty decent fight you know booked up and then you know that fight got scrapped and he ends up getting a new opponent and on last minute notice and yeah it's just one of those things man it's just like you know it's hard to get up for some but I think the UFC even knows that I think even the UFC recognized that you remember when Dana like Dana would never miss a card and now I think he's at like every third card like he never like there was never a car where danel white was in front center and now he's on like vacation in italy he's not even in the same state as what it's happening pretty impressive the run that he did do though for every card for so long so you got to give that to him but yeah i mean i don't know um it it kind of sucks just because it's it's not really any better than just your regional show like lFA or or even um you know

even just your regular regional show. I mean, of course, you know, these are, I think the big difference is like guys like this on an apex card like last weekend, you know, they're fighting for a lot more, right? I mean, these guys are wanting, you know, these guys on the regional show, they want to get to the UFC. But, you know, they're probably working a regular job or even, hell, even a lot of the Apex fighters are probably working a regular job. But they recognize the opportunities right in front of their face. at this point, right? Yeah, it almost, it almost feels like, I feel like they benefit, like, because everyone seems to really like the Contender Series, you know, five fights, in and out, you know, just

kind of like, you know, moving on and not, you know, not bogging things down or anything like that. Like, everyone seems to like the Contender Series fights. They're always pretty exciting. It almost feels like maybe that would be a better way of doing some of these lesser-known Apex cards, like, just put on, like, eight fights, you know, put on, like, eight fights, you know, because, like, they got contracts. to fulfill and everyone's supposed to get three fights in the year and all that kind of stuff.

But I just wonder if like maybe these Apex cards, they wouldn't be better off just almost running like a contender series light, like just running like eight, eight fights, you know, rapid fire, get them in and out of there and then move on because it just seems like the interest these cards just isn't there. Yeah, I think that's a great idea, actually, you know, just give a UFC tryouts at the Apex every week. Yeah. You know, like just film it.

Just every week. Give a UFC tryout. you know everybody that wants to you think you got the shot here you go and you know a lot of these guys they'll make bad mistakes and be like I'm ready you know let's go and then

you know they're going to fuck up but I think that's actually a great idea guys might come two or three times or four times or whatever you know they don't to be honest they don't even have to pay these guys to do it guys would do it for free you know they can pay them you know

500 bucks you know whatever it is like every fighter in the country would go to do it. We got to catch us to Dana. Something, something. I think it would be interesting more than what's going on right now. But yeah, we are in the middle of the law. I've got a couple of apex cards in a row,

and then we do get UFC 319 next week with Hamzot and Drichas and, of course, AARPika making his debut and a couple other good fights on that cards. So that'll be interesting. We'll get in breaking that down next week. But Matt, it's everyone's favorite subject when we talk about this on the show. And I honestly hate bringing it up because it feels like we do talk about this stuff exhaustingly because these kind of situations come up.

But we also can't ignore it because it's two huge names in the sport. Now, we've talked about John Jones retiring, unretiring, and now saying he wants to fight again. Dana's already said he doesn't want him headlining the White House cars. He can't trust him. But he says, you know, I'm still coming back. He hasn't negated the possibility coming back. And he's talking about, you know, still wanting to be a heavyweight champion, blah, blah, blah. And then we know this week, Connor McGregor actually got back in the drug testing pool.

Now, there is a test in there. So he did really get drug tested. This isn't like a social media thing. Now, I could go on a much bigger rant about the fact that guys are just able to just jump in and out of the drug testing pool for whatever the fuck they want. Because that to me seems like a really bad idea that you could just like, you know what? I'm back. No, I'm not back. Oh, I'm back.

I'm back. He's got to be clean. But still, it just seems like a bad drug testing program when your guys could just jump in and out whatever the hell they want. But only certain guys can do that. Yeah. Yeah, but he actually took a, he actually took a drug test. So that's a real thing like he is in the system. So, Matt, let me ask you this question because I think this is a very weighted question,

but it's curious. John Jones, Conn-Bergregor, who actually has a better chance of fighting again? Or do you believe either of them ever fighting again? Because I have my doubts about either one of them ever fighting again. Not have my doubts about either one, but I think there's a far, far, likely a chance we get John Jones fighting again. You know, his whole retirement, quote unquote, you know, was it really a retirement, you know,

and, you know, he's playing the game, and he's an interesting guy, you know, he's a, he's a bit of a wild man. I say wild card, wild man a little bit. So, you know, I don't know if that was really retirement. Connor never actually retired, right? But he's basically retired. And Connor also, you know, I think it's the only chance of him actually come back is if he's not self-aware.

Right. Like John Jones can do all this stuff and come in and beat Daniel Cormier. Connor McGregor, you know, he's a special guy too, but he's not a John Jones special. Yeah, it's, um, like we like it took me a while to finally come around to your way of thinking saying Connor's never going to fight again just because he constantly kept addressing it and I'm going to fight I'm going to do this I'm going to come back and also like I was understanding of the fact that he had a really really nasty broken leg like I think some guys come back too quickly from that

injury and I've said you know that may be one of the worst injuries you can get in MMA because it seems like everyone who's ever had it has not really ever come back the same now there's other factors Anderson Silva was older, Chris Weidman was older, all those kind of things. But I was a little more understanding saying, like, that is a pretty devastating injury, you know, and so like give him time to recover. I held on, I clung to that thread probably more than most people did. But I finally came around to your way of thinking. And then him saying he's getting back in the pool again, I almost, it reminds me that something you said, this is going back maybe a year ago or a year and a half ago we were doing the podcast. You said that something to do the effect of he just doesn't want to let it go.

Like he doesn't want to live outside the limelight of being a fighter. He's a he's now running for president of Ireland, which whatever. He's, you know, running liquor companies and beer companies and and his BKFC co-owner. All these kind of things are great. But it's not the same attention, the same drive that comes from fighting. And you had said something, I don't want to put words to him out, but something to the effect of it. He just doesn't want to give up that feeling. He doesn't want to give up that hope.

And that's why he keeps talking about coming back. That's what this feels like to me. Like everyone's like, Connie, you're doing this. you're doing that, you're doing this, you're doing that. And he's like, hold on now, I'm still a fighter. Whereas the rest of the world has kind of moved on. Like, we've all kind of moved on and said, dude, like you're doing good. You're making millions.

You're living on a yacht. Like, whatever. But it just seems like he can't let it go. And it almost feels like this is like trying to prove something to himself, which that could backfire spectacularly if he actually does end up getting in there and he's not fully committed. And someone just lays waste to the guy. Yeah.

And, you know, again, we don't know him as a person, right? We don't know him personally. We don't know what's going on in his life. If we judge solely by his social media, not, you know, any, which you can only judge so much by social media, right? It's not factual all the time, right? But if I judge, if I judge him just by social media, like I would question his mental health, right? I would question, you know, depression or, you know, other things.

you know, I'm not a mental health expert. They're all kinds of, but I would quit, you know, addiction is a clear, obvious one. You know, I would question his mental health, right? And we all know, every fighter knows, like, it becomes your identity when you're a fighter that becomes who you are. And, you know, we talk about it all the time with sports psychologists and other fighters and, like, you know, you can't let this be your identity. Like, you're more than that. And it becomes your identity. I don't give a fuck what everybody tells you or what you try to believe in your, in your, you know.

your own head. Like, when you step out of the cage one day, you'll realize, like, that's who you were. And that was all of who you were. And, you know, I think Connor's having a hard time with that is seemingly. Yeah. I think it's, I mean, and the, and the, the harder, I think the hardest thing for me to wrap my head around with with Connor is that, you know, he's not in the same situation where a lot of fighters are where they don't have another option.

You know, like, some guys retire or try to retire, and you're like, they don't have another way out. Like, this is their outlet. Like, this is how they make their money. This is how they pay their bills. This is how they pay for their kids' school, whatever it is. And they don't have another outlet. Like, the fighting is all they've got.

Maybe they're not able to do podcasts or own a gym or whatever else is. Fighting is their identity, truly their identity. That you're kind of like, man, that's kind of sad that you kind of feel for it. But, like, in a case, like, he's got all the money in the world. He doesn't need to fight. All that money in the world does not help your mental health, though. Yeah, I know you're absolutely right. Yeah, as a matter of fact, it can make it worse because he's probably in the situation

where he retired and he's like, I got all this money. What the fuck do I do now? You know, I've, I mean, I've never had that much money, but, you know, like, I have to say that out loud just in case you wondering, but I haven't had that much money yet. But like, I know very, very wealthy people that talk about. that they're like but once you make a certain amount of money like your purpose in life becomes a little bit more difficult to find like you better have good friends and family because like you don't know what to do with yourself now like you made it like you like you have everything you need like you can buy

whatever you want you can go wherever you want there's nothing left you know like it feels cool when we're coming up and like oh i got my first house fuck yeah you know all that progression those little things. Oh, I got a fucking car I've always wanted. You know, I'm dating a fucking girl that, you know, respects me for my, my hard work and what I've earned. And, you know, I mean, the list goes on and on. You get all these things. And then, and now you get whatever the fuck you want. And you're like, you're lost. You're like, you can't buy anything anymore to show that you made progression and that you are doing good things. Yeah. It's, uh, I think. I think, You just tacked that on to, okay, now his identity, for one, got kind of ripped apart by Dustin

Porier. Dustin took his soul, or Habib probably first, but I think Dustin kind of put the nail in the coffin on that. And, you know, so now he's not a winner, right, and with that identity. Oh, excuse me. And now he's not even able, not even competing anymore. That's a lot to deal with for. anyone, you know, so you got to have a little bit of sympathy on that side, too. Like, it is a lot to

deal with. Um, and again, we can only look from social media side. That's all, that's all we know about them, right? We're not hanging out with them. And on that side, it does not appear that he's handling it properly or well. Yeah. And also, I mean, the reality is like, as you said, like, John Jones can roll off the bed and probably beat 90% of the heavyweights and light heavy weights. He would fight right now. Like, let's just be honest about that. Not that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, That's more of a testament to John Jones that I'm trying to insult the heavyweights or light heavyweights. I'm just saying like that's how talented you.

We know that. John Jones was on a Coke bender and went in to be Daniel Cormier. I mean, that's ridiculous. We've talked about that many times. Connor is already out four years. And by the time he would potentially fight next year, we're talking about almost five years. He's 37, 36 going on 37.

And, you know, he was getting, you know, he got, you know, way late way late in the last couple of fights. As you mentioned, that was 2021. and we already talked about this before. They're not going to bring Connor back and let him fight some random no-name guy. Now, maybe he fights Chandler, and it seems like Chandler might be, you know, towards the end of his career as well. So maybe that's still one fight. But even that's not a guarantee.

I mean, even that's not like you can just go in there and just wipe out Michael Chandler. So I just feel like it's one of those things where he really just can't let it go. And I think the other part of it that I have to question you say, like, you know, social media is a real life. You're absolutely right. But we do know, like he's traveling, he's on a yacht, like he's with his family and stuff. I've not seen any, like, he may be hitting a heavy bag and working out. Like, he may be on the bike or whatever, working out. He still looks ripped in shape.

But that doesn't mean you're fighting. Like, what was the last time you saw sparring footage of Connor? What was the last time you saw him, like, in a gym, like, hardcore training in a gym? You know, like. Sure. But again, you know, again, we got to keep in mind, social media is not real. He could have been on a yacht two months ago and we posted it now. Sure, sure.

You know, especially when you've got to keep in. got that kind of money. I mean, hell, when you got my kind of money, like, we schedule a post far advance. You know what I mean? Like, you don't have to be a rich person to do that. Like, it's a very, very common thing. So again, I don't, I don't put any weight on that. But what I do want to say, too, while we're on the subject, you know, when we talk about John Jones being able to roll out of bed and basically fuck up to every single person on this planet, you know, I always had a little bit of a theory, you know, we know that's, that's a, you know, that's not he's not going to be to do that forever, right?

There's going to be a day where he comes out and maybe he did just roll off the bed or come off a cocaine binge or whatever and then he loses, right? If he keeps fighting, it will happen one day. We don't know when that's going to happen. I've always had a question theory, you know, does he wonder about that day? And was that maybe a part of his retirement? Did he start thinking that day might be near? Like I have to actually like

Clean up and work hard and do all this shit now And I know I can go in there and do it But maybe I'd rather just keep doing what I'm doing Yeah I mean also the one thing I'll say about John is he still technically hasn't been out of year Like he fought last November You know so he went through a training camp So like he's still in that like you know minimal

Like you go away too much longer you start talking about that But Congress already been away for four years Right right You know what I mean? Like that's a long-ass time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I just wonder, I just wonder if John, if that's not in the back of his head, right? You know, I mean, I'm sure he, I'm sure he trains.

I'm sure he has good training camps and everything. But, you know, does he put everything he has into it? And, you know, he only he knows. And I wonder, you know, I'm not assuming, I'm not saying this is a fact, but I wonder if somewhere in the back of his head if he's saying, you know, how long can I keep training this hard and keep going? you know do I need to stop parting and do all these things all the right things because he knows he's a smart guy he knows that his time is limited everybody's is

father time is the most undefeated motherfucker ever yeah no you're absolutely right I just with both those guys like I said I'm not going to bet a lot of money on either one of them coming back if I'm being completely honest but if you're going to force me to nail down a pick I would say John because John is still at this point about nine months removed from his last fight. There is a real fight out there for him with Tom Aspinall, and maybe that's what's not going to drive him back. Maybe he's like, I don't want to fight Tom Aspinall. I have no idea. But John, John still kind of feels like he's got one foot in the cage, one foot maybe out the door a little bit. Connor, I've lost faith that he has any feet in the door anymore, any feet in the

cage anymore. Like I just, I feel like my opinion is, is what you said a couple years ago. Connor just can't let go of that part of himself. And as he gets to 36, 37 and four years away from the cage and everyone, everyone, everyone is saying he's not coming back. It's no longer you and like one other person. It is now you and like everybody else is like Conner's never. Like we're just all assuming it's not going to happen. I think that maybe bugs him and that got to him.

And he's just like, I'm coming back. I'm in the drug testing pool. And what's funny is he got back in the drug testing pool and everyone reported on it, of course, like he's back in the drug testable, but I didn't see anyone going on social media, but oh, he's definitely coming back. Like, this is the sign. You know what I mean? Like, we're still kind of like, okay, sure, you're coming back.

So I think that probably bothers Connor because he's so ingrained to being a fighter. I think he just can't quite let go that he's just not that dude anymore. And I think that's driving him at this point. But at some point, he gets back at a camp. He starts putting his body through it again. And maybe he just, you know, last time it was a toe injury, maybe this time he breaks a rib or he breaks a hand or he breaks a foot or you know he has some kind of injury and that's just I think it's going to be the harsh reminder that he's just not that dude anymore and that's okay

by the way that is completely okay sure sure I don't know I just I don't see him you know if he was going to go box Mayweather again I could see that if he was going to even pack out or or hell even a fucking Terrence Crawford you know someone that he knows would probably beat him or whatever Like there's a lot of money in that shit. For him to come back to the UFC, that's so far removed, I think, from, that's such a stretch, I think. Like when you got 500 mil in the bank,

are you going to come fight for $5 million or even $10 million? Like, like, do people, can people do math? Like, you know, what is he? He made $26 million through his entire career. That tells me, okay, he comes back. Like, he's maxing like 10 million. right let's say it's 10 million he has 50 times that in the bank like last we checked like he sold his whiskey business for 500 mil who knows how much that's appreciated right he might be up you know 600 million

at this point it's like how are you that math does not add up at all you know like you're gonna put your body through this for um i i'm not good with with that math but like what percentage of your of your net worth would that be like 0.1 like 1% or you know what I mean like yeah like that's insane yeah I know you're right about that I just like I said I don't have a ton of faith in either guy fighting but if you're forcing me to pick I think it's John just based on you know he retired and unretired within two weeks and like you said you're not you're not sure you ever totally bought him being retired Connor never wanted to use the word retired but we all kind of like he's done.

And I think that bothers him. And I think he just can't let it go. And this is just a, this is a rehash of coming back from the broken leg, the ultimate fighter and just, you know, I'm going to fight Chandler. I'm going to fight Chandler.

I'm going to fight. Remember at that time it was he needs to get back in the pool. He needs to get back in the testing pool. Took forever. Took forever. Finally got back in there. Scheduled a fight. And you and I were like,

well, maybe he's going to prove us wrong. Then he gets injured. And then it just disappears again. And that's, that was last July. Like, that's more than a year ago.

And so like, It makes total sense for John to do it. But I'm sitting here, like, running numbers through my head, right? So 1% of 50 million would be $5 million, right? Yeah. It's my math right there. How much is it? What are you saying?

10%. $5 million. That'd be 1% of 50 million, right? That would be, what about? That's 10%. Is that 10%. Yeah, 10%. Yeah, 10%.

Yeah. Yeah. So on average stock market return is like 10% of use. year. So like you could literally make that by not doing a single thing. So are you really going to come back and do a training camp? Yeah. That's a 50 million. I mean a 500 million. It's one percent. Yeah. That's that's one percent. Yeah. So you could yeah, fuck, I'm, I'm terrible with math, bro. But that's one percent. You could literally not do a single thing. You could spend money and still make more. Yeah. Like it makes zero sense. And, you know,

That's one of the many arguments. I've seen people on Twitter saying it when I talked about he would never, he has enough money. He's never coming back. When people say, well, Kobe still goes and he's rich and Floyd Medler still fights. And I'm like, okay, Floyd has, let's say, 100 mil in the bank. And he's going to come fight for another 100 mil. Like he's getting like 100% of his return.

Whereas Connor, like, could legitimately do nothing. and make more money. So he's actually fighting for free, or you could even say he's like paying to fight, right? Because he could do other things with that money, you know, the opportunity cost, he could make more money. So it doesn't make any sense unless he can co-promote.

And then taking even the money out of it, though, I just think the physical toll at this point. Like, you know, like you've been away for four years going on five years. But I promise you it comes down. to money. Now, right? When you have that much, it's, it comes to money. Like, his body could handle the physical toll, I believe.

If, could he handle the mental toll, right? When you're like, when you ask yourself, why am I doing this? Right. Because it'll get hard, right? And then he's going to say, he's going to go to bed tonight. Why am I doing this? Well, is it for the money to feed your family? Is it for, you know,

I don't know. What else is there? Right? Like, we're fucking prize fighters. And he's like, okay, yeah, I'm going to make $5 million. Like, this is not going to fucking motivate him. Yeah. And again, we're talking UFC fights.

We're not talking, you know, we're talking the hardest sport in the world that has tons of variables. Whereas like boxing, like there's not the many variables. Like Floyd Midwether could box anybody off the couch and do well because he's that good of a boxer. I had a take down in there. It's over, right? you know like Kobe can go play basketball he's done his whole life and there's no consequence if he loses you know if his team doesn't succeed next year right he's he's got the contract sign like he makes the money so well Kobe's he's not even around anymore but um

lebron use lebron as an example yeah yeah i don't know who's who sue i don't watch basketball but i think i think the point stands yeah no you're absolutely right you're absolutely right i agree And when I saw that, I was like, it just, when you see it, like, there's just going to be that percentage of false hope. But I'm just like, I still don't believe it. I still don't buy it. I think it's, you know, it's. I mean, again, like, you can just do the math. And, you know, inmate fighting could use this as a clip, right?

They always take a clip. And, like, this would be a simple one. Like, just do the math. Like, I don't know what John Jones's net worth is. I'm going to assume, let's say high in, like 50 mil. right was that a good guess would you say like i think that's probably even a little higher than what it is but i say let's just say let's just say 30 40 million let's say 34 million yeah so so he fights for you know five or 10 million dollars that that's a good chunk of his net worth right like it's

worth it to him to do that right whereas connor again you're you're looking at like you know one percent like that's insanity yeah yeah you know like you said if it was boxing be different. He's fighting Mayweather. Knows he's going to lose, but he's also going to make $100 million. But you can put it in a fucking money market account and be guaranteed to make more than that. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

You're absolutely right. So we'll see. I mean, like I said, well, this is in the distant future and we'll find out how I'm still in the belief I don't know that either one of them are going to fight and I think the cases are different. Why? But I just ultimately don't think either one of them are going to end up fighting. But if you're going to

make me pick, I'm going to 100% back John Jones coming back basically for the same thing you said. I don't know that I ever totally bought him being retired. I think he's just kind of like yeah, yeah, I'm not really interested right now, so I'm going to walk away. And then two weeks later, he's like, yeah, I want to find that White House card. That's just John was never really done.

Now, as you said, there's a time limit. There's a time limit on how long you can do that. But again, John just fought nine months ago. I know it was Steepa and Steve it was an older, you know, guy and wasn't you know, the steepe of, you know, 2019 or whatever. But still, he just did go through a full training camp for a fight last November.

He's not been out for five years, four years going on five years. Yeah, and he might be at that point in his career where he's starting to ask why he's doing it. And if he wants to keep doing it, like, you know, taking that physical mental toll on him. And he might be asking himself, is this worth it anymore? And then that day, he was like, he was like, yeah, Dan, it's not worth it. Fuck it. I'm retired.

And then two weeks later, he's like, well, this kind of sucks, too. Like, you know, all right, I'm going to fucking, let's go again, you know. And I think I think a vast majority of fighters go through that same thing. You know, he's dealing with much higher stakes and legacies and everything. You know, we just deal with it on lower level.

But, you know, every single training camp, I went through the same shit. Every single good camp. The poor camps where I ended up losing, I didn't necessarily go through it. But the best, hardest camps, two, three weeks out, I'm like, bro, I'm never fucking doing this again.

This is so fucking stupid. And then as soon as you walk out of the cage, you're like, dude, when am we doing it again? Can we come back tomorrow? Yeah, it's funny because I wanted to mention this to you real quick before we move on. Like I saw, we saw Robert Whitaker had the loss to Rainier to Ritter a couple weeks ago. And, you know, before the fight Robert said, like, I have like four, probably four fights left, you know, I want to be around for another year or two. You know, he's kind of marking down time to retire. And, you know, I want to make one more run for the title, which seems kind of unlikely now, especially with

losing two in a row and losing the Hamzot and Rinear. But I suddenly it was Kaya Bahagio who said it. And he's like, I feel like, you know, he basically more or less, I don't want to put words as well. More or less said like he thinks Whitaker's done. Like he's already kind of got one foot out the door. And we've talked about this a lot with guys announced retirement fights. And you made the exception for Dustin Porreys and he's like the one guy who could announce a retirement fight and still go out there fight. And boy did he.

It was a great fight. Him and Max went on and put on a war. But even in that moment, you're kind of like, when that fight was over, I was kind of like, yeah, I think it's probably time for Dustin to walk away. because he got hit with shots in that fight that he doesn't normally get hit with, and he just seemed like it was time. Like, he picked a good time to walk away. But I'm kind of getting up the mindset. Like, when you said that to me, whatever it was,

I think it was with Anthony Smith's retirement when you said you don't really like when guys announced retirement fights because it feels like you got one foot out the door. I'm starting to get into mindset, like, even in Robert Whitaker's case, when he's like, I got four fights left. Dude, if you're already seeing the exit on there, like either A, don't tell people about it, like, in your own head. Like, you know what I mean? because once you've expressed it, that's all people are going to think about.

Like, oh, Robert Whitaker's got four fights left. He's got three fights left. He's got two fights left. And you're already focusing on that end run. You're already focusing on that light at the end of the tunnel or the exit, whatever it is. I'm almost getting into mindset now where I'm like, dude, if you're that way, like, if it's just about money, fine. But if you're already like, I got four fights left, maybe just have no fights left. Because you're already thinking about like you're done.

You're saying two or three more fights, whatever the number is, I'm done. And maybe you should just be done. Yeah, I'm not against that. You know, I think there's different type of people, people that can kind of work through that and have that end goal in mind. But I think it's more rare. You know, I think more often than not,

if that's where your mindset is at, it's not a good mindset to have. Like, I don't think a single guy had that mindset on the way up. You know, and you kind of got to keep that, we talk about all the time, you got to keep that white belt mentality. you got to keep that um you know when you don't have that that urge and desire and and man you know that that motivation and just that uh you know you're just one it's so fucking bad on the way up and then

it's like once you get it then you start thinking about the end and then that when that urge motivation desire whatever you want to call it is gone and i think it's just not the same anymore I just, I know everyone's going to be different. I don't want everyone, there's no paint by colors when it comes to retirement when it comes to walk it away. But I always, I always think, and I'm not saying this just because you're my friend and we do the podcast to go, but I always thought you had the best mentality I've ever heard for retirement. Because when you had to fight with Court McGee, you went out there, you knocked him out, you're riding high. That was a great fight. You knocked out a guy who went on to win fight since then.

Court's still around. And you didn't book a fight, you waited, you waited, and when they called you and you said, I just didn't get that same feeling. And I knew it was time to walk away. I was like, that is the smartest retirement I've ever heard because you just knew. You're like, yeah, this is time. And you've stuck with it. And, you know, listen, if you said, listen, if somebody came to you and said, Matt,

we're going to pay you $10 million to fight. I'd be like, dude, take the money and fight. But generally speaking, you're done. And I think, like, I know not everyone's going to have the same way, but I almost feel like I wish more guys would have that mentality. Because, like, I kind of like, weirdly, Dustin, even though Dustin did do a retirement fight, I did kind of like him saying, like, I know, I'm towards the end.

So he wasn't saying I'm done. He's just like, I know I'm getting there. He didn't set a number on. He didn't say, I got a year left, I got two years. He just knew he was getting towards the end. And two fights ago is fighting for a title. You know what I mean? So I just, I just, it always worries me when guys like, I see that I see the end is in front

of me in two fights or three fights. And I'm just like, dude, to me that's a dangerous game to play because you're already thinking about, you know, being out, being done. And it makes me wonder, like, like what makes you see it in? that number of fights. Like, like, what is it about that number of fights that you see?

And, you know, I know some people put an age on it, but, like, you don't know how you're going to feel at that time. Like, you might be feeling great,

you know, and, you know, and the other part, too, is just, you know, are that,

like, I think that's why you're saying that, is, it's because, like, okay, obviously, like, you already don't feel

that same urge that you did before, right? So it's like, just get out now then while the getting's good. Like, you don't want to ride this game until the wheels fall off.

This is not the game to be playing that with. You know, boxing is the same way, you know. Probably the only two sports I would say that. Maybe football too, right? Like, you don't want your wheels falling off, man. You got a long life ahead of you. 40's not old, you know. That's, you know, it's not old, you know.

It can be a prime time in your life. You don't want to ride this until the wheels fall off. You know, we've seen guys do it. I can name names, you know. of guys that did that. And they're not living good lives now. It's not a good situation. I think that's unfortunately more oftentimes

than not how it does end, right, in this sport. And boxing, for that matter, too, is they ride till the wheels fall off. And then you're dealing with situations where it's like a sad goodbye where you're like, man, like, it's rough to watch them talk in public or being in your interviews and things like that.

Like, that's, I would say that's probably, what, 90% of retirements in combat sports is when it's not good, when it's not, like, when it's already too late, And that's the toughest part about combat sports, man, is that's the, that's when you make all the money, too. Yeah. When the wheels are falling off. Dustin was smart enough to get out.

Habib was smart enough to get out. GSP was smart enough to get out. We've seen enough other guys that don't want to name their names where they weren't smart enough to get out. And all these are the most prime example, right? I mean, the most famous boxer in history and, you know, didn't turn out well. Yeah, it's sad. It's that reality. And I think that going back to Connor and John, like, you know, John, John was still the number one guy in the world when he retired.

I think he could come back and still fight a Tom Aspinall or a Cyril Gonn or whoever and still do well. But Connor was already like one in three or one in four in his last five fights. It's been four going on five years. Could he win? Sure. But there's a much bigger risk there. John's risk is there because John, you know, because he's going to fight a heavyweight. And especially he fights a guy like Tom Aspinol, that's just a risk because you're fighting maybe the best dude.

seen in ever maybe potentially you know what I mean depending on how good tom Aspinall actually is even if Michael Chandler like there's danger there but like what I just like I just I think they're two totally different situations in terms of what they'd be coming back for and who they would be coming back you know and and I kind of felt that way with Whitaker like Whitaker like Whitaker's lost a couple in a row if he's like to the point now where he's just going to be fighting down the rankings it's like dude just you know if it's not a money thing you got money put away dude just be done

like it's cool to be done you had an incredible career what the best middle weights of all time it's cool to be done Yeah, and, you know, I think Whitaker still got a lot left in. And my man, I thought he looked good against the Ritter. You know, he just fought a guy that was better than him. Same with Humzot. I mean, he didn't look good against Homsat. But, you know, he also didn't take a ton of damage either other than his mouth, I guess.

You know, his jaw got ripped apart a little bit there. But, you know, I don't think that's, you know, no brain damage. You know, Renier-Ritter put a little bit of brain damage on him. But the point is that, you know, I think he's got his wheel. are still going. You know, like he's not. And he's that type of guy, too.

You know, the problem with a guy like Whitaker is he's so athletic and relies on his athleticism and his reactions and his speed. And that's the first thing to go. And when that starts going, you know, a guy like him is going to have a very hard time. And I think we may have seen a little bit of that in the dritter fight.

I don't know what it would look like. five, ten years ago against Whitaker. But I thought I've seen a little bit of it personally. Yeah, I mean, I think you're upset. It could be already, RDR might just be that good, you know? Well, I mean, it could be a combination of both. You know what I mean? It could just be both.

Yeah, so, real quick, before we get out here, man, I want to bring this up. This isn't totally related to MMA, but it is related to combat sports because everyone is funny. I know you're not a big pro wrestling guy, Matt, but last, it was two nights ago, whatever it was, at SummerSlam. W.

Brock Lesnar made his return. I don't know if you probably saw it. You probably had to see the headline somewhere that Daniel Cormier said Brock was banned. He was in so much trouble. They're not going to use him anymore. And that all centered around him being named in the Vince McMahon lawsuit, that sexual assault, sexual abuse allegations.

And by the way, just to be totally 110% clear, Brock's not a defendant. No one's suing Brock. He was just named as like one of the people that Vince got involved with this woman who is suing WWE and sue. doing Vince McMahon. And so when Daniel Corbyn said he was banned, I don't know that he was ever totally banned, but I do know he was kind of like persona non grata. Like we just don't want to have like, it's almost like toxic. Like you just don't want to touch this guy right now. But he kind

of made a return in WWE last night or two nights ago, whatever it was. And everyone's like, there was like two schools of thought. One thought was like, oh, Brock's coming back. It's going huge. He's still a big star. John Cena is the guy's going to wrestle. John Cena's going on a retirement tour. And obviously a pro wrestling is different than MMA. But like he's going to these last few months, and they had a big rivalry, like, during the primes of their career. So, like, I think he wants to have, like, one last run with Brock and share the ring with him a couple more times. But the other side is, and a lot of the WWE fans are kind of clutching their pearls,

saying, I can't believe you bring him back. He's got these allegations against him. And, by the way, if you read the actual, like, lawsuit, which I did an article about it, that's pretty fucking disturbing. So, and, but not all this is Brock related. A lot of it is Vince McMahon related. It's just Brock's name gets kind of peppered in there of, like, he was going to have this girl more or less service Brock.

That was the allegation, but it never actually happened. But his name was mentioned a bunch of times. But everyone in WWU was like clutching their purse, and I can't believe they'd bring him back. Now, Matt, I'm just going to tell you the reason I brought this up is because maybe I've been around the UFC too long and I've learned to be a cynical guy. But like when you look at some of the things that people have done

or been accused of doing in the UFC and not gotten punished, not gotten dropped, not gotten anything, are we really that shocked that Brock Lesnar is back if he's still got a couple good years left in him and can sell some tickets come on now

like WV fans are all flip and I can't believe you bring this guy back and I'm like do you watch UFC do you see the owners of this organization like Carmen Greggar's a perfect example

that literally the guy just lost an appeal in a lawsuit where he was found liable of sexual assault he's never found guilty he never tried in a court of law but in a civil lawsuit

he lost and he also lost the appeal you don't see as he mentioned it they don't seem to care like they're just like oh Connor wants to come back so I'm just like everyone's clutching their person and by the way I'm not saying you don't have a right to be upset they're bringing them back I'm just saying like I'm not surprised they're bringing it back yeah I don't

know anything about it to be honest but you know it's it's interesting you know money is pretty much above everything right and understandably so right does a lot of good things.

So, you know, and not necessarily hating on that. But yeah, I don't have a lot to say about it, you know, because it kind of is what it is, you know. And this day and age that we live in,

it's just, it's almost commonplace now. You know, it seems like over, I don't know, maybe I'm getting old, right? Maybe that's all it is and you're just seeing it more.

But I feel like over the last, I don't know, five, 10 years or whatever, I mean, we just see it so commonly now. And it's, Like, has this been going on like the whole time we're just seeing it now because of social media or whatever?

And it's just everywhere it feels like, you know, once you get to a certain level of fame and notoriety, it's just, it's just commonplace. Like, like, almost no one could do it and you'd be surprised at this point. Yeah. I just, like, I guess my point and kind of relating it back to the UFC is like, you know, like when Connor gets accused of terrible things, when John Jones gets arrested. multiple times and on numerous charges when, you know, like, they release, like, I can't remember the guy's name, I'm trying to remember the guy's name.

I'm trying to remember the guy's name. He was a guy who got accused and got accused of a bunch of a bunch of kind of disturbing domestic violence allegations. And it happened, and they just released him. Why? Because Louise Pena doesn't matter to them.

But John Jones matters. Conor McGregor matters. Like, they're not going to let Connor McGregor go because they know the second they let him go, somebody else is going to snap him up and give him all the money and give, and they're going to benefit from it. Brock Lesnar is a huge name. He still brings in ticket sales. He still sells, well, they don't do pay-per-views anymore, but he still gets people to buy

a subscription to watch their product, whatever it is. I don't, I'm not saying you have to like it. I'm just saying like, that's the nature of the business we're in. Why does Connor still have a job? Why does John Jones still have a job? Why does any number of guys still have a job that did horrible things or got accused of horrible things? Because they have a name. They have value.

I don't think it's not saying it's right, but that's the world we live in. Yeah. Yeah. It's a tough situation, man. You know, when you're in the situation of power too, you know? And you got a guy like Connor who you can't let him go somewhere else, you know? Like that'd be insane too. I talk about it all the time

that the you know the president, Dana White or you know the other executives at a business you know they're stewards of the business

you know it's not their job to be in moral police or anything but you know we also as human beings we'd like to see people step up and try to do something to stop these types of things

and I don't know it's not an easy answer either way I think I mean, I just think we got to reconcile with the fact that like, like, I looked at it today. I was curious because everyone's up and up. Yeah, everyone was, and social media is not real life, by the way, I know that. Like, everyone's social media is clutching their parole, said, oh, my God, I can't believe you use this guy. I looked at the stock prices.

TKO stock went up today. If you wanted to know if it actually affects the business, their stock would go down. You know, if it actually affected their business, people would sell their stock or they would get out of business with them. That didn't happen. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm just being honest about it here. Like, if they were, if it was actually a bad deal and it was actually going to hurt them in the long run,

like Vince McMahon, when Vince McMahon got accused of all that and like it was really, really, really bad, and they got this huge massive lawsuit within like a day he was out of the company. Because it was just, there was just too much. It was a bridge too far. And he wasn't really bringing the kind of value to the company at that point. Brock's not a defendant. He didn't actually, you know, he's not actually in a lawsuit, didn't get arrested, none of that kind of stuff. they know he still brings value.

They're going to use him. Just like they're going to use Connor. Connor's got a rap sheet as long as my arm of accusations. If he was actually back, like in the hypothetical world back where he actually fought again, do you think they wouldn't put him on the White House card? Right, right. You know what I mean? Like, come on now.

What world are we living in here? I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying, like, you got to realize what you're, like, everyone, I just, I saw the reactions. I don't want to say it made me laugh. I'm certainly not trying to downgrade the series of the situation, but I'm like, you're this been out of shame by Brock Lesnar, have you seen the UFC?

Like, have you seen some of the stuff that's going over there, guys that never get in trouble? Like, come on now. Let's slow down on the moral outrage here, because this is not the business they're in. Yeah, are, um, W, W, W, W, athletes, are they independent contractors?

They are. They are. And, you know, I can be, I can certainly be more lenient when you're talking about independent contractors, you know. If they're employees, I think, you know, that's certainly different because that's an actual reflection of the company. When you're hiring an independent contractor, you know, they're not meant to be a reflection of the company. It's about the best I got for that. You know, where, you know, you can, you can give a little bit of leeway on that. It's like, you know, we hire construction guys.

I mean, Lord knows, you know, some of the prisoners that we. hired doing our construction as independent contractors. You know, you're not doing a background check on them and you're not, you know, vetting them or anything, right? You're like, can you do the job? Oh. You know, and that gets into the deeper conversation of, you know, particularly in UFC. I don't know how WWE works, but it gets into a deeper conversation of, yeah, we're independent

contractors, but we're treated like employees. so and you know when when they do something like release louis lewis pinia however you say his name louis pinia they're suddenly treating him like an employee right so like you said i think you get deeper into that conversation but it's you know we don't have any control over it i think this just goes back to like when dana when dana says like we're all about free speech we're all about you know, inclusivity, we're all about, you know, these guys are grown men, so on and so forth. I think all this is doing is reflecting that. I'm not saying you have to like it.

I'm just saying it's reflecting that because, like, when Bryce Mitchell went on his big Nazi rant, and we were kind of like, and I had the opinion, I was like, what are you really losing if Bryce Mitchell isn't around? Like, he wasn't a top 10 guy. He wasn't a super popular guy. What are you really losing? But Dana stood by his word and said, we're not going to police our guys. And they didn't. And, you know, Bryce, I guess, sort of made amends.

I don't really know if you say you made amends or not, but, you know, kind of just went away. And these allegations in that lawsuit are incredibly serious, just like the allegations of Connor McGregor were very serious. But I just feel like this is the sport we're in. And the reason I bring it up, because WRE is UFC now. Like, they are under the same ownership group. You know what I mean? If they're not going to punish Connor, they're not going to punish Brock Lesnar because they bring value to the company. They're just not.

Yeah. Again, I kind of like try to put myself in a situation. You know, if I were president or in charge or whatever, I'm like, you know, would I not bring in Brock Lesnar? I'm like, I don't know. Like it depends on a lot of details, I think. But, you know, it's hard. Again, you're the steward of the business. Your job is to make the business money.

That guy's going to make your business money. The stock price went up. Let me. Let me, I mean, you're not at WVU, let me throw this to you, and I know your answer. I'll know your answer right now before I even say it. Brock Lezner, I know he's like 48, but let's just say hypothetically.

He's like, you know what? Because remember he wasn't going to come back and fight Daniel Corme? Remember that whole thing when that happened after he beat Stebe? If Brock Lezzer said, I want to come back for one more fight and I'm going to fight John Jones at the White House. Do you think for a fucking second, Dana would not put him in the fucking cage and having fight John Jones for a whole boatload of money?

Come on now. Yeah, we all know the answer. Yeah, he's the main event. Main event, right now they'd book it tomorrow. Yeah, yeah, main event, no question. And probably do the same thing he did to Mark Hunt where he doesn't have to pass a drug test. Yeah, come on.

That might actually be the only way he has a chance against John Jones. You let him get steroided up out the gills where he's like breathing steroids. Maybe then he has a chance. Yeah, I do hope they do this White House card good, you know, assuming that it happens and everything goes their way. I hope they do it good, you know, and do bring, at least try to bring like respectable guys in, you know? Like, I don't know.

Like I hope Bryce Mitchell is a main event. You know what I mean? But who knows? You know, UFC's, they're their own beasts, man. They're a different level than what we understand at this point. Yeah, that's true. It's true. All right.

we're going to get out of here. We obviously, as I mentioned, we got UFC 319 next week. So we got Hamzot and Drickas fight next week. Aaron Pico finally making his UFC debuts. That's a pretty good card. We'll talk about that next week. Matt, if people want to check you out what you got going on? Where can they find you?

What are you got going on? I'm the immortal Instagram and Twitter. The immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. Got a ton of things going on. For one, you know, we can't be remiss to not start talking about the retreat that we're setting up for next year in Costa Rica. I just got back from and it went well. So we were like, let's do it again.

So anybody interested? Send me DMs. That's kind of a big thing I'm going on. You know, I'm working on my second gym. But that's more local. You got a million things going on, you know? Never slows down. Never slows down.

It's always fun, you know. Absolutely. Well, we appreciate. My debut, you know, work on our record right now, you know. and might debut a song on the podcast, maybe. I like that idea. There we go. A little Matthew Morto Brown music on here.

We haven't had that. A little bit of guitar. Yeah. The fighter versus the writer. I like it. People are asking for you to play guitar on the show, so I think we've got to make that happen at some point. I can play guitar right now.

I love it. We'll do it. Well, absolutely. Yeah, that'd be cool if we can debut a song on the show. That'd be pretty cool. Well, they got a request. song what song they want me to play i'll do it i'll get it ready for next week uh what does i say uh what tell you last resort by papa roach wasn't that the one i told you had to plan so how about this

i'll do last resort by papa roach but i got to do it in my style there you go do it doing your style that was a what was we had some bet where he had to play guitar and i told you had to play last resort i can't remember which one it was but at some point i can't even make that song cool though I have to think of a better one. What was so good? Like, play a machinehead song. Play a machine head song. You have something there.

Machine head any day. Yeah. Play a machine head song. I like machine head a lot. Something like that. You know, this may not be an interesting thing for a podcast, but just got a cat. You got a cat?

My girlfriend brought a cat to my house. So now she's stuck here. Like she's literally crawling all over my desk right now. What's the cat's name? The camera gets bumped. You could probably hear meowing. Oh, I see it now. There's the cat.

There's the cat's name. Luna. Luna, okay. I did not name it. Never imagine Matt Brown was a cat guy. That's a new one. I can't say that was on my bingo card. I wouldn't say I'm a cat guy.

I'll tell you the cats are all right, man. I went to Costa Rica. You know, I filled up the self-feater, filled up the self-water, came back, the cat was cool. If you got a dog,

that's a fucking tough job, man. You got to find a sitter, you know, and plus dog has hair everywhere. You got to walk him every day. This motherfucker, you ain't got to do nothing, bro.

But I got two dogs I wouldn't trade for anything in the world. I love my dog, so. I feel that. that my cat would just want to eat me she'd rather me be dead so yeah cats

cats look at you like how can I kill this guy like how can I kill him in his sleep yeah this looks like really tasty food where the dog just loved you yeah unconditional love unconditional love all right give you some self deprecating

humor there yeah Matt Matt the the cat man brown that'll be your new nickname the catman. All right, folks, we're going to get out of here. Obviously, as always, we say a big thank you to everyone that tunes in the show. Make sure you check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify,

and of course over on the best website in the world, nbathighting.com. For Matt Brown, I'm Damon Martin. We'll see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Writer. Thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you then.