MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Sympathizes w/ Ronda Rousey, Picks & Predictions For Paul vs. Perry + More

Episode Date: July 16, 2024

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin discuss Dana White’s recent statements on Ronda Rousey and why her evolution may have been stunted by her obligations outside the cage, Nate Diaz filing a lawsuit and our picks for Jake Paul vs. Mike Perry. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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At these prices, could I find something for everyone at Winners? Stop wondering. Start gifting. Winners. list for less. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Back to the fighter versus the writer. I'm Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown from another weekend out doing seminars and teaching and

doing striking instructionals and where all have you been? Yeah, you just called it. That was it. In Boston with dynamic striking, getting some more courses together. So we did like an advanced clinch course this time. So I already have two clinch courses. have the basic immortal clench, which is just the fundamental clinch stuff that I do. And then I did a clinch defense instructional.

So basically how to beat my clinch that I do. And then this one was more advanced. So it was more like how to flow from one thing to the next sort of like chain wrestling, but chain clenching. Nice, nice. I'm not, I swear I'm not trying to just sell the product or anything like this, but you'd be surprised how much you can learn from those kind of instructional. It was like I know I've told the story before. Like my first introduction of learning MMA was from watching Frank Shamrock videos. Like I got a three VHS set and I learned from there.

And that was like I went into my first class already knowing way more than I should have as like a beginner. And I had been practicing and learning. And so like you can learn a lot from those videos. Yeah, you can totally learn a lot. And look like you go to your regular gym and you're going to learn all the same things. Now, Clinch they may not learn a lot of the same things because it's just not as. widespread in America. But, and, you know, a lot of my stuff comes from Thailand and, you know, and I've been

developing it over a long time. But, you know, for jiu-jitsu is like the most common instructional, sometimes, you know, moitai's other, or striking kickboxing, whatever's another common instructional. Like, there's no secrets. Like, your coach is going to teach a jab a certain way. You get an instructional, he's going to teach a jab a different way. but he might give you, you know, the instructional, you might get little cues, little tips, little, just little nuances that maybe, you know,

your coach either didn't have time to go over, you know, could have slipped his mind. You know, that's the nice thing about the instructional. At least when I put them together, I don't know how other people do them, even though I have learned a decent amount from instructional. You know, the nice thing is I sit and I write my shit down and I think about it for a long time. You know, I make a progression. I have notes and, you know, certain things I need to say on each part. Like, I basically put, you know, two or three months of work into it.

And I actually use my gym to experiment on how to teach it properly. So I got two or three months of the work going into this single instructional. Whereas if your coach is teaching it, he might, you know, be popping something right off on the spot. Yeah. And also, I mean, again, just being, you know, honest about it. When I bought those Frank Shamrock Instructionals, I didn't know I had any local gyms around me. Now, later on, I learned about when I was in Cincinnati, I learned about George Gersel and guys who did. But at the time, I didn't know anything was out there.

And also, I didn't live in California. That's where Frank Shamrock's gym was. Like, I couldn't go out there. So there's a lot of people, people who are in, you know, Arizona, Washington, California, and Nevada. Like, they can't come out to Ohio to train at the Immortal Martial Arts. that maybe they want to learn some technique from Matt Brown. Like, that's little things like that can, again, I'm not trying to sell it. I'm just saying, like, that's the benefit of those.

I watched a million instructionals when I see a fight, and as long as I've watched the sport, and I feel like I know it pretty well from like a visual standpoint, I do see moves occasionally, striking and or grappling. And I'm just like, damn, that was slick. And I'll go seek out videos to see exactly how it has. Because what's in a fight is very rapid fire, you know, and I can rewind it and watch it. but like I want to see the setup. I want to know the technique.

So I do watch a lot of videos for that as well. So yeah, there's definitely a benefit to it. Yeah, I should probably start doing those kind of videos too. But, you know, with the instructional's, in particular, that's why my clinch is definitely my best selling instructional because there's just not a lot of great clenching in America. And of course, I mean, I'm not going to to shoot my own horn, but I'm pretty fucking good at it too.

But part of why I'm so good at it is because there's just not a lot of good instruction on it too. And I've been trying to get it out there and promote it some where people could realize like, dude, the clinch, you can really fuck some people up if you know what you're doing. There's going to, like some of the guys that are coming up that I'm teaching,

they're going to be using this shit better than I ever did. Like, you know what I mean? Like they're going to be the next level of it. So I think it's a very underutilized weapon in mixed martial arts. so yeah absolutely absolutely yeah i don't i would even argue that i didn't use it as well as i could have i mean it's it was a it was a big weapon for you but yeah absolutely but like i said that's just like anything else like when you look at the way guys fought in 2010 to 2024 like

the technique there's differences like everything always evolves like that's no and that's every sport like that's like what people say you know you look at football players who are great in the 60s and 70s they would be smaller and get absolutely just absolutely demolished in today's football because the guys are bigger, faster, stronger. You know, you look at, I mean, dude, I brought this up the other day when Frankie Egger went in the Hall of Fame and I tweeted it out because Frankie Edgar, the week of UFC 302, Islam McAcha was out at Frankie's gym and they were doing pre-fight training at Frankie's gym in New Jersey. And Frankie took a photo with Islam and said something like, you know, Frankie's been one of my favorite fighters. It literally looked like Frankie was like his kid brother and Islam looked three weight. Now, Islam is a lightweight.

Frankie was the lightweight champion a decade ago or whatever it was, like 12 years ago. He looked like he was, he looked three weight classes below Islam. Now, yes, he did end up fighting lower weights later in his career. But still, like this is a guy who was the lightweight champion not that long ago. And he literally looked like he was three weight classes below Islam in that picture. I mean, that's just a sport. guys evolve guys change guys get bigger get better at weight cutting all these things

no that's a good point and Frankie's also a special guy too you know he can't forget that like he's a fucking savage warrior like god danes fights with gray bainard you know first one especially like there's something different

inside of him man absolutely no yeah and that's also true I mean he was undersized and he beat guys who were bigger you know what I mean so yeah his career is unbelievable but like I said that's just what I'm talking about, like the size difference between then and now. Like, you would never think, so those two standing next to each other were in the same weight class or we're champions in the same weight class, but they were.

And yeah, a lot of that goes to Frankie's skill. I've stood next to Alex Pereira before, and I'm like, I have no clue how he makes 185. I mean, he's gigantic, even Rich Franklin back in the day. I mean, he was a gigantic 185er. That was why I never wanted to commit to going to 185. I did it on the show, but like, I was. would stand next to him and I'm like bro there's no fucking way like you know what I mean you're 20 30 pounds heavier than me yeah I always remember though like when the first time I met

chuck Liddell and Chuck was big but like you get you get these visions in your head you meet him and I'm like he's he's like a big dude for a light heavyweight and I was thinking because I had met I think it was the same weekend I met him I met under a losk and under o'losski's a big heavyweight and I was like damn under o'alovsky is a big dude and he is a big dude but then I met Chuck and I was like how the fuck is Chuck fighting the light heavyweight this dude's huge like what the hell he was a massive dude too real tall and you know obviously he wasn't you know he wasn't cut weight and he wasn't actually 205 pounds at the time but I was like god damn I always felt like chuck was like a very well proportioned light heavy weight you know what I mean like he

when he was in shape because he didn't always come in shape right he didn't he didn't always put in his best foot forward coming into a fight, I don't think, even when he won sometimes. But when he was, you know, trim and in shape and looking good, like, he was very well proportioned. Yeah, he was. He absolutely well. Yeah, it's just amazing. When you see some of these guys who fight in his weight classes now, like you mentioned Alex Pereira, like, yeah, like, that guy, like, yeah, he needs to be fighting a light heavyweight or heavyweight because he is freaking massive. And I mean, he's insane.

He kickedboxed it. you know, whatever that weight class is. I think it's like 184 or something because six kilos. I mean, he did it for a long time. Yeah, you never know, man. Like I said, it's wild. I mean, you know, I'm not, I'm not even though I'm a wrestling guy. I'm so, I'm so kind of against the idea of extreme weight cutting because it's just

it takes a toll on your body and that. But I think we are at an area where not everyone, but a lot of people have had it got it down to such a science to where, you know, they're just really, really good at cutting weight and it doesn't affect him like they used to. I always tell the story when Jose Aldo cut down to 135 and I saw him on the scale and he looked emaciated. I'm like, dude, this is going to go bad for Jose. Like this is going to now. He fought the next night and lost a close decision to Marlon Marius. It was a real good fight. But I was like, God, he really showed up and fought. But the day before he looked like he was on desk doorstep, 24 hours later, man, he looked just like

the old school Jose Aldo. I was shocked. Yeah, and there's no way that you're 100%, you know, just 24, 36 hours later. You know what I mean? There's just no way. But I think they, I don't know if you seen, I tweeted out a pretty good idea the other day

that maybe we should try sometime, which would solve weight cutting where everybody fights on five, six hours notice. Yeah, that might be a way. You know, it's funny. Everyone always comes of the ideas of how to curb weight cutting,

that might be the only way to do it is like have everyone fight on five or six hours notice. Because you, you, you, I've said this for years. Like, I understand the idea of a 165 pound weight class because, you know,

170 and 155 are the two most, in my opinion, the two best divisions in our sport. I like Banthawe's really good right now too, but traditionally, 170 and 155 been the deepest. Yes, you could absolutely create a pool of legitimately good,

or 65-pound fighters. But for every 155-pound fighter, let's say a Kevin Lee, who just can't, you know, he's just killing himself to make a 155, you're going to get plenty of 170s who are already drained and on death's doorstep of 117.

And they're like, but I can cut four more pounds. And they're going to do it. So it's not going to solve the problem. None of that solves the problem. All you're doing is, you know, you're creating more, you're just creating a different weight

where people are going to cut more. Because for every 155 that comes up, there's going to be a 170 or even a 1805 or is going to come down. thinking, hey, I can do it, you know? Right. And I don't know what the solution is, to be honest. But, you know, unless they, I don't know.

I've thought of, like, different things, but they're, like, everything has an issue. You know, like there's a way around it almost no matter what. Because, you know, I kind of thought like, okay, what if the UFC put like a freaking, you know, like how they do USADA, you know, and they come to your door. if they would come do random weight checks. Right. And you have to, but you also have to check in maybe on FaceTime or Zoom like once a week and show them your weight.

You know, but they're also going to come check in person because you're going to manipulate people are going to find out how to manipulate that, you know? So and then, but then even if you got the guy coming to your door, you know, like, you know, you know, you knows it in like some of them countries, those guys be getting paid off. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I just don't know if there is a way to do it. Like one championship is trying their best.

You know, their little hydration test and stuff. But even that, it seems like it's just turning into a mess, right? Yeah, I mean, ideally, like, in theory, you think same day way, and it's like what they do for wrestling in the Olympics, because guys aren't cutting as much. But also then you run the risk of, like, serious head damage because, like, when you drain your body, like, that's always the scary thing about guys who cut a lot of weight

is you drain water from your brain. you know their guys who are going to do it. They're going to say, oh, yeah, I'm still a welterweight, and they're just going to kill themselves, and they're just going to fight 12 hours later versus 24 hours later. So, yeah, it's, I wish I could, like, I just, I appreciate when people try to do things to make things better. Like, I think Andy Foster at the California Commission is the gold standard. I like that he at least is trying to, you know, keep wait and check and tell guys when they go too high between, you know,

what they wait in to what they balloon up to the next day, that they should. consider changing weight classes and giving guys resources and stuff. But ultimately, Matt, you and I both know, it's not really going to change because guys are always going to try to look for the competitive advantage. And if they're 190 pounds walking around, are they going to be more likely to cut five pounds and fight monsters like, you know, potentially Pereira or Adasana or Dracus? Are they going to say, hey, let me show you off 20 pounds.

And then I can go down to ones. That's just the sport. I don't like it, but that's the sport. Well, that's why I like, you know, if we gave everybody like a, you know, you got to fly guys in, right? So you can't do a five-hour notice for every single person. Danigay was, you know, living in Vegas. The fight was in Vegas. It was a little, you know, a unique situation.

But what if we did it in, you know, maybe two days notice? Yeah. You know, every fight's in two days notice. It's like, you can't cut that unless you ain't been water loading. don't know if you're fighting or not. Yeah. I don't know. Like I said, I've had a lot of ideas on this.

You know, I'm just tossing bullshit around that's never going to happen. But it's fun. You never know. Maybe I'll start that promotion one day. Talk about starting promotions. News came out today that our old pal, Nate Diaz, has filed a lawsuit against Fanmeo because he was owed $10 million. This is all.

Let me just stay clear. This is what he alleged. the lawsuit. I'm not saying this is, I've seen the contracts with the alleged in the lawsuit, which I have seen. I have seen the guy's in lawsuit. Ten million dollars he was supposed to get paid. His representatives in the lawsuit said they were always kind of skeptical about the payment, but they were assured it was done. They have, you know, contracts in place. They had statements from lawyers. The money's being set aside, blah, blah, blah. They were going to pay him one million dollars up front and then nine million

dollars after the fight. So he got the million dollars up front. And now here we are about two weeks after the fight. And he still hasn't gotten the $9 million payment. So they filed a lawsuit. Famio released a statement basically saying they don't agree with the lawsuit. And the funniest part about the response was them saying, he's been paid seven figures. Well, he didn't deny that. He got paid a million, but he owed him 10. I'm not trying to, I don't want to turn this into like, let's knock Famio because I'm a big believer in, like, competition's a good thing.

Like, we need, you know, I think when the UFC, even the UFC, which is the biggest and bad, as we all know that, I think even then when you have a competitor that at least slightly pushes them, it makes them get better and also makes them go out and sign free agents, makes them stronger in the market than when it's just them. Like, you don't want only one promotion to exist. But, Matt, UFC is the only promotion making money besides maybe BKFC. It looks like BKFC is profitable because they're selling out. They've had sellouts and arenas and things like that. They're like the only other one. But that's also bare knuckle.

That's not MMA. And I know this is boxing, but, and I know this is boxing. like this scares me that like these because you got to overpay right like you got to overpay to get these guys to come fight for you because why would they tell what you if they could take five million from you or five million from the UFC well go fight the UFC because then you get another five million in sponsorships and endorsements and things like that that you're not going to get somewhere else but man I'd be scared to death if I'm one of these guys now like you're supposed to pay me 10 million dollars you pay me a million you can't pay me the other nine that's not

I'm not saying it's a smart business plan to pay $10,000, $10 million, but you agreed to pay Nate Diaz $10 million. Now you're saying you can't afford to pay him. That's a problem. Yeah, I wonder. I don't know, did the pay-review reports come out, like how many pay-per-views they sold or the gate or anything like that? They had a sell-out.

Yeah, they had to sell out. 18,000 people. Now, what that means in translation to dollars, I have no idea. And I'm sure the pay-per-view, I mean, there's no way it did great. Paperviews and traditionally just don't do well unless. or the UFC or big boxing events. So I can't imagine they did a lot of pay-per-views when that thing. Yeah, I didn't think so either.

But yeah, I was just wondering if the financial numbers have come out yet because, you know, I mean, if they did a sellout crowd, that should cover the 10-mill right there, I think, right? I don't really know, like, the finances behind this shit. But, you know, because usually, you know, even the boxers, like, they'll get, like, you know, a certain amount of money guaranteed, and then they'll get pay-per-view points, you know, just like the UFC fighters. And it's like, you know, so where did this number come from? Was he just guaranteed a flat rate?

That's what it sounds like. Like he was guaranteed a flat rate of $10 million versus, like, getting pay-per-view points or anything, which is fine. I'm not going to fall to do when I'm doing that. And let's be honest, that was probably a smart idea in the interim, you know, to say, hey, I don't know what this paper review is going to do. So let's take the 10-1.

million dollars and yeah you run the risk that it sells a ton of paper views and maybe you miss out on some money but i would take the 10 million guaranteed too and the fact that they're the fact that they're saying allegedly saying we don't have nine million to pay you uh that's bad man and that worries me because if i'm obviously if i'm nay diaz or i'm anybody now and these these these other promotions come around and say we're going to pay you a boatload of money are you going to pay me a boatload of money you're going to promise me you're going to pay me a boatload of money there's two differences here. You know what I mean? Like, I can tell anyone I could pay him. Doesn't mean I'm going to. Right. Yeah. So I don't know, man, because I don't know, you know, we got to see the contracts and,

you know, the numbers. Like, there's so much to look at, like, just knowing that he's suing him. Who knows what's going on behind the scenes, right? There's so many details that I'm not going to make any assumptions myself and I'm not going to, you know, say one side's right or wrong until we know a lot more details, right? We just don't know shit about it, right? Can I ask, can I ask you personally, Matt, like, I don't think you ever really came close to leaving UFC. I don't think you did. I'm pretty sure you always were, you know, one contract to the next and you were happy with what you were doing there from all my history with you, understanding that.

But was there ever a fear? Like, if you did decide to go, because free agency, I mean, listen, I don't fall anyone for tests to free agency. And I do think organizations like PFL and Bellator are paying their guys. I don't think they're stiffing people on paychecks. But, like, was there ever a fear of that in your heads? like if I leave, like the grass may look greener on the other side, but it's not actually greener. Like, did that thought ever cross your mind?

Because UFC, you know, I'm not going to get into the whole fighter pay debate because everyone deserves to make more money. But, you know, let's just say you're making $150K at UFC and then Bellator comes along and says we're going to pay $200,000. But then six months later, Belator's out of business. Like that, like, was there ever, like, did that ever play a part in, like, you staying with UFC versus test of free agency or anything? Because I'm curious about that with fighters. You know, looking back sometimes, I wonder if I should have maybe tested free agency or maybe should have negotiated my contract a little harder, maybe should have pushed a little harder. So I have a hard time really commenting on this because I think a lot of other guys probably,

I probably don't relate to a lot of other guys that I've kind of done it the way that I have done it. Because I never really even negotiated my contract. I literally talked once with Dana and said, hey, I think I deserve more money. and he said okay and gave me what I asked for like that he it was literally like a five minute conversation and we spent the next hour talking about you know his ferrari's and you know show me around his office and you know silly shit like that um my mindset was always I want to be the fucking best in the world I want to fight the best in the world I want to challenge myself to the fullest extent you know that I can in this in this cage and you can only do that in the UFC if you're in the

fucking you know nothing against bell to our love watching them but if you're in bellatory you're not fighting the best and i just want to fight the best and i would have done it for free um and i don't think that's the right mentality you know what i'm saying like there's so many fighters with that mentality that that's why we're underpaid right well i think you know we don't have to get too deep into that but we all know that's the case right and if and if if um you know if i'm going to go in and i'm going to argue about making you know a million versus you know, quarter million, there's a thousand guys that'll gladly go do it for 20 bucks. Like just to have that UFC brand next to them.

So, you know, I'm probably not the best person that talked about it because that was my mentality the whole time. Yeah. Well, you look at, listen, there are, you know, there are opportunities outside the UFC and I credit guys who have done it. But we have to be honest, the opportunity to do it and do it successfully over a long period of time is few and far between. You know, I think the two most prime examples currently are Francis and Gano and Mike Perry.

Now, Francis, I think the jury's a little bit out in terms of MMA because he had two big boxing matches that paid off, but he's done nothing in MMA since fighting the EOC and, what was it, what was it, 22, or whatever it was when he fought Cyril Gahn, so it's been like two years or going on two years or 2023, beginning of 20223, so it's now been like a year and a half going on two years. And I said this, and I know it doesn't, I know it probably pisses off PFL when I say this, but, you know, the jury being out on France, listen, I'm not going to fault Francis for taking the money.

He probably got paid more in those two fights with Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury than would have made the next 10 years of the UFC. I'm certainly not faulted him for that. But that's boxing. That's not MMA. And MMA, he's going to go fight Hainon Ferreira, who I think is a solid fighter. But Matt, nobody knows Hain and Ferreira. Nobody.

and okay they pay him $5 million. Well, I'm happy for France he made $5 million. But his relevancy in terms of, and again, I'm not saying that should be his most important factor. Maybe it's not. If it's just money and providing for his family in the long-term future, I'm totally fine with that. But when we talk about the best heavyweights right now, who are we talking about? John Jones, Tom Aspinall, Curtis Blaze. We're barely mentioning Francis because he's been out of sight out of mind for a year and a half and going on two years.

Mike Perry is a different case because Mike Perry is making a couple three million dollars a fight. He's become the face of a promotion. He's basically building, putting a sport on his back and become the face of bare-knuckle fighting. So he's doing something totally different. And now he's about to fight Jake Paul on Saturday. I don't know what he's getting paid, but I have to imagine it's a pretty good payday. And I think he's got a great chance of winning that fight. And that's why when I made that argument on Twitter, this is going back several weeks ago, I said,

I think Mike Perry is the one who's found the most success because he's had both things. he's got a sport that loves him meaning he can fight anybody in that sport people come watch him and he's also making good money now did he make as much as Francis did fight in Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua probably not but that's it

I mean what else would I mean in boxing is there anything left for Francis in boxing right now I mean really I mean right now yeah I mean there's always something left right you know it's not you know there's always

another guy out there to fight you know, I mean, he went to distance with Fury. Yeah, Joshua fucked him up, but look, you know, he went to distance with Fury. Like, he could still get a top 10 boxing guy. You know, I think his name would probably still draw at this point, you know, not, obviously not to the level of fighting Tyson Fury or Anthony Joshua. But, you know, if he wants to get back to fighting those guys again,

if he really wants to be a professional boxer, I think there's options out there for him. I mean, there are. But let me relate that back to M.A. though. That's the other problem is, like, he's an M.M.A. fighter ultimately. You know, that's what he's known for. And then May, his only options that anybody's going to give a fuck about that we're going to even, you know, give five minutes on the show about is going to be UFC. Yeah. And I know, because you said this before when we had the whole co-leader discussion with PFL and I don't want to turn this into, like, let's knock the PFL, but

you know, you can pay everyone a million dollars, you can put these tournaments on and pay, and I'm certainly happy for everyone in these tournaments making a million dollars. And, And I'm glad they're doing it. I'm glad they're out there. I'm glad guys are getting paid a million dollars. I absolutely am. But again, relevancy-wise, when people talk about the best featherweight in the world,

or best, let's just say best, 125, where they got a pretty good 125 tournament going on right now over there, Liz Karmucus is over there, Tyler Santos, solid fighters. Whoever wins that, they're not going to get ranked above Alexa Grasso or Valentina Shepchenko or Manofi or, you know, 115, you know, That's the reality. Like, that's just the reality of the UFC has got such a stranglehold on the overall talent that it's a balancing act. Like, I'm not going to fall anyone for making money, but again, what is it you're after?

If you're after money, cool, I got no problem with that. Obviously, as you said, you're different, but that wasn't necessarily your main motivation. Yeah. That's exactly it. And, man, you know, again, sometimes I look back on it. Maybe you should have been motivated a little bit more by that, you know, because it's not. like I walked away from the sport wealthy or anything, you know, but I got a good brand, got a good name. I think I've earned a lot of authenticity in the sport, and I think I've earned, you know,

my spot in the history, you know, even if it's not on the front page, you know, it's still somewhere in the history. So, you know, I can be proud that look, everything I got I've fucking earned. Black Friday is here at IKEA and the clock is ticking on savings you won't want to miss. Join IKEA family for free today and unlock deals on everything from holiday must-haves to cozy at-home essentials, all the little and big things you need to make this season shine. But don't wait. Like leftovers at midnight, our Black Friday offers won't last. Shop now at IKEA.ca.ca.com. Bring home to life. With Instacart,

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delivery fees on your first three orders. Instacard, groceries that over deliver. Service fees exclusions and terms apply. Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned promotion and brand. I want to bring this up real quick before we move on real quick and close out the show and I want to do a quick breakdown of Mike Perry Jake Paul this Saturday because that's

a pretty interesting fight. But did you see, we talked about this several weeks ago, and it got, it really blew up. And the only reason I'm bringing this up is because, you know, the interviews are coming out again. We talked about Ronda Rousey making those comments saying that, like, if she walked into a UFC arena now, she would probably get booed. And we agreed. Like, she deserves credit for everything she did. And you basically made the comment. I totally agree with you that, you know, show a little bit of humility.

And, you know, people will love you. We want to love you, Rhonda. Like, we want to love you. But Dana White made a comment. on Shannon Sharps' podcast a few weeks ago, and he said, you know, talking about Rhonda, and he said, asked about Rhonda the end of her career, and Dana said something to the effect of,

Rhonda, because Rhonda was so fiercely committed to building the brand, building the UFC, building women's MMA, bringing fans to the sport, that she couldn't evolve at the same speed as, while Rhonda was out promoting, other fighters were training to beat Rhonda, is what he said. And then Rhonda did an interview.

Now, she didn't full, say that, but she basically said, yeah, I had to be everything to everyone. I had to promote as hard as I trained. Now, I'm not saying that what Rhonda did in terms of her promotion isn't important. It absolutely is. That's why I said. Rhonda is a pioneer. Rhonda deserves all the credit in the world for what she did. Women's MMA isn't here today the way it is without Ronda Rousey. I think we all know that. But I do bump up against that idea that you were promoting so hard that you could never train. I think this is me saying this, not you, Matt, this is me saying this. I think we could point a much bigger finger at who she was training with versus her promoting

and not having a chance to get better. And listen, I'm not trying to say to just take Diggs and Edmund Terverdi. We all know the story on that guy. But Rhonda left him. Rhonda retired. Where's he at now? How many fighters are running to get trained by him these days? Where do you see him in the corners? Because I certainly don't. Well, that was, that would. make him a bad coach necessarily either but i think there's enough we have enough other reasons to believe he's a bad coach but the the thing is um you know she's not wrong or he's not wrong in saying that like i do have some sympathy for that like she put she had a heavy load on her shoulders they came out of nowhere that she wasn't necessarily asking for wasn't necessarily expecting

and i i do have some sympathy for that personally or at least empathy i don't know you know i don't I say feel bad for for that. And I think a lot of that is truthful where that started getting to her head. You know, she's out promoting all the time. And look, when I would do like a media tour or, you know, do a lot of interviews leading up to a fight, you know, I would use that as a, you know, mental reinforcement, right? So they'd ask questions and I would say, you know, positive things over and over to those, because you get a lot of the same questions, right?

And you use that as a reinforcement. Now, I believe she was probably doing that, but she was saying things beyond what were truthful, which is fine to kind of say it, but she actually started to believe it because she's doing so much media, repeating that over and over again in her head, and then she started to believe it.

And again, I don't know if she would get booed at this point, you know, but she certainly, you know, At some point, she's got to, we talked about before, you got to be humble. You got to come to the realization of what the facts are. Like, you're not beating Kane Velasquez, right? Like, can you accept that? Like, you were not the greatest ever. And this isn't hate because I know some motherfuckers are going to twist that as hate.

Like, I just, we did, I did a responded to a Twitter thread the other day and it said, who's on your Mount Rushmore of MMA? I was like, dude, Rhonda is a thousand percent on my Mount Rushmore of MMA. I said, hoist Gracie, Rhonda Rousey, Connor McGregor, and then you basically got a laundry list of guys that could be number four, you know, John Jones, Demetrius, Anderson, Silva. But those three, I don't think you can have a Mount Rushmore without them. And Rhonda is absolutely a part of that.

Yeah, I agree. Let me pose this in a different way then, Matt, because what you say, listen, I'm not, I say this all the time, and that's one of the reasons why I love doing this show with you, because I'm not a fighter. I've been around fighting for a lot of years, and I've talked to a lot of fighters, but I've not been a fighter. I've not, especially not at this level of the UFC.

I know this is going to sound like a weird question, but I'm going to ask it anyways. Does the UFC deserve a little of the responsibility for the downfall of Ronda Rousey? Because I realized this when I wrote that story about her the other day. She was in the UFC for four years. That's it. Four years. She came in 2012. She left in 2016.

And only had eight five. Like, I'm not saying that's little. I'm saying, like, it's crazy to think about Rhonda Rousey as big as she was. She only had eight fights in the UFC. Now, that was a crazy schedule she kept. I mean, just like when she fought and turned around and fought, she fought, I think it was Betch Coha and then turned around and fought Holly home like four months later or whatever. And obviously got the knockout.

But, like, and listen, I understand she has responsibility. She can say no. We all know that. You do have, you know, like, I'm sure Conner's told the UFC know plenty. times when they say hey Connor come over and promote this he's like yeah fuck off but she didn't but does the UFC bear at least some responsibility for like using her to build the sport putting her out there putting her on all the big programs putting her as like the face of the UFC and not allowing her the time to just be ronda just be i mean i'm just asked the question because i think if that's real

what you're saying i think you're probably right because obviously you've been there you know do they bear at least a little bit of the responsibility for not allowing her her to have the freedom to like, hey, why don't you go train for three months? We'll leave you alone and then, you know, call us when you're ready to fight. Doesn't seem like that ever happened with her. Doesn't seem like she ever had like three months to just fuck off and just trained to go get better. I think it's a great point. It's a great question. And I don't think there's a right or wrong answers to that. Like if someone, you know, if she came in and said, look, you know, the UFC bears a lot of responsibility for that. I wouldn't get mad at her.

if she came in and said, and said, look, is my responsibility, like I could have turned it down, that's not the wrong answer either. You know what I mean? There's not really right or wrong. Like, you know, I guess where it gets a little bit complex, right? Is that the UFC was probably making her do about double,

if not triple the media that our opponents were doing. Right? So, you know, with leading up to a fight, now she's bearing all the responsibility of the media and our opponent's training. So maybe that's problematic. And, you know, maybe the UFC.

But that's also their job, too, right? That's the UFC. They're a promoter. That's what they do is promote you. So, like, that's literally their job. They made her a lot of fucking money. They made her a superstar. And Rhonda was, for lack of a better word,

a company woman. Like she, you know, when they said they needed her, she answered the call. Now, again, I said this about Al Jermaine Ster. after the Hendr's Soudo fight. To this day, I don't think it was fair for the UFC to basically corner him

right after beating Henderson Sudo for five rounds in May and say, hey, we need you to turn around and fight Sean O'Malley in August. I've never thought that was right. Like, the dude just fought five fucking rounds against a fucking gold medalist, the Olympus former champion.

And a month later, you're saying, hey, you turn around and fight in August. May to August. And he did it, and it cost him. And maybe, again, I don't know, maybe Sean O'Malley would have beat him anyways. I have no idea, but I didn't like that they did that to him. And Rhonda, you know, winning and knocking out Bech Caheo, which was, you know,

and Bech Caheyahia, we all know what she was at the time. But then, you know, turning around four months later, flight Australia to fight Holly Holm. I'm not saying, I'm not, I'm not, I think Holly Holm probably beats Rhonda regardless, because I think that was always just a bad matchup for what Rhonda was, because Rhonda never really developed into much of a strikers. She got in her head. She was a striker.

She knocked out a couple of people. then she went in there with fucking Holly Holm was an elite striker and we found out what happened. But again, I'm just saying, like, I still push back a little bit about the whole, like, you know, the blame falls on, you know, I couldn't evolve totally because I was promoting. Because I think, you know, if you're a big enough star, you do have the power to say, no, like, I'm not going to do this. Dana said that, not her, right? Yeah, yeah, and she agreed with it more or less.

Like, she's like, I had to promote as hard as I trained is what she's. said yeah as a fighter you know you don't again like every reason is it turns into an excuse when you're a fighter so yeah you just don't you don't need to bring it up i mean i could give you a million excuses for every loss i got i mean but it's like you don't need to bring it up so um no but it's valid though it's legit right it might be an actual reason but again when she says it it turns into an excuse but it's i think it's a valid reason i'm not going to lie Well, and I think what you said, now that's what I agree with you on is like the lead up to the fight where she's doing 19 interviews and her opponent's doing one. That's real.

And that is a, I mean, and I get that. I get the frustration of that because. You know, at a media scrum, like they're not going over to Betch Kahe. Like the entire media scrum is the Ronda Rousey show, right? Yeah. Yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right. Now, that I totally agree with.

And that's absolutely true. Like when you're Rhonda Rousy, you're Connor McGregor, you're John Jones or Israel out of Sonia, you're doing 19 times the amount of media as your opponent is. And that's a problem. Now, to their credit, I think maybe this is like the made called the Ronda Rousey rule. You notice a lot of guys don't do it much anymore. Israel rarely does media. Like, I used to interview Israel all the time.

I think I've interviewed him like once in the past, like, a year and a half, maybe. You know, Connor doesn't do much like he does social media, but he doesn't do a lot of interviews anymore. You know, he does his MacLife channel, which is he owns it. But yeah, like, I wonder, I'm not saying, I'm not trying to play conspiracy theorist here, but like, I wonder maybe that was like the cautionary tale of seeing how Rhonda did it all. And they're like, hold on, maybe we shouldn't accept everything. Like when they call and say, here's your media list. You're doing 28 interviews on one day.

And they're like, yeah, I'm not going to do that. You know, like it seems like guys are a little bit more willing to say no these days. Well, I don't know, it was also interesting when you've seen Connor coming up. like he embraced that shit right he loved it he made a show out of he turned it into the coner show ronda i don't think ever actually enjoyed it and never really wanted to do it she was just doing it you know to be a company man so like i said i do see some validation there in that but i don't think i think even if she got to train fully i think her losses like holly holmes still was beating her like again you i called her before

the fight. I was one of the few people that won money on that fight. You know, I don't, it's like, she's still not beating a man and Nunes. You know what I mean? So like there's still you know, you gotta give credit where credits do. So again, it's not necessarily wrong, but it's also easy out. And I, and I do think

in all reality, and I think, I've said this before publicly, I think Ron had bought into her hype a little bit. Like you said, you say things enough times like you can beat Floyd Mayweather. All right, like, let's calm down here. you start to believe it. I think that hurt her because I think when she,

I think her knocking out, I think her knocking out Betchko Hayer, whoever was she knocked out the first time, whoever she, I think that was the worst thing to ever happen to her because it suddenly made her think she was a striker and she was never a striker. Yeah. Yeah.

And who knows, you know, about the people around her, what they're saying, you know, you know, when you start making that kind of money and start getting that kind of fame, I mean, everybody turns into a fucking succubis, right? Or leech, you know, they're all. trying to get something out of you. Even, you know, it's a tragic thing, right?

We see it in Hollywood all the fucking time, right? Like, you know, these people that you trusted coming up and, you know, you just, you got to handle it like the Huck to a girl and go fucking, you know, be, go donate it all to the local animal shelter. Yeah, it's wild, man. Yeah, and again, I do because the weird thing is I always liked Ronda when she was coming up. But, you know, again, I think a, I don't think you're wrong when you say it that way.

I think you probably got a valid point, but I also think B, I think she did kind of believe into her own hype a little bit too much, and that backfired on her. And then, see, I just think that the rest of the sport caught up to her, and she never evolved beyond that. Now, did some of that have to do with her responsibilities? Maybe. And you might be right about that because I didn't think about the night.

It's probably a combination of all the factors. Yeah, yeah. And I agree with you, though. I was wrong about the Holly home fight at the time, but, like, looking back now, like, I don't think Rhonda on a 10-week training had with zero interviews would have beaten Holly Holie Holm. And I don't think she would have beaten Amanda Nunes either. And that's not me knocking Rhonda.

That's just saying Holly Home is a horrible matchup. And Amanda Nunes is arguably the greatest women's fighter to ever fucking fight. You're probably not going to beat her. And that's not saying you were bad. It's just saying those were the matchups at the time. Well, she was, Rhonda was the hoist Gracie of women's MMA. Yeah. You know, hoist came back, got his ass kicked by Matt Hughes.

Like, we, you know, the sport wasn't even. very evolved at that, you know, just like women's inmate. Like she came back and fought a man in news. Like this women's sport is still evolving. So, you know, it is what it is. Have you ever gone back in Washington those early UFCs to hear them try to describe Jitsu? It's fucking hilarious.

Like they're like, what is he doing? And it's just like the guard. And you're like, what is he doing? He's pulling him on top of him. And like, looking back at it now, you're like, Jesus Christ, it's like day one jiu-jitsu shit. Yeah, I remember. Jim Brown was like the best commentator

commentator because he's like he's got his legs around his head and he's going to try to do something with that gie that he's got on yeah it's great I love it those are some my favorite fights to watch we kind of forget like how boring a lot of them were yeah they were like a lot of

were actually like way more boring you know when you go back and watch it because of the fights that we're used to nowadays and part of that's a production too but like there was like some really bad like boring fights a lot of times. It was like one or two.

You either had like a fucking rapid fire, like 30 second finish where one guy just absolutely beat the shit out of the other or you get these like really drawn out long kind of boring fights. It was weird. There was rarely a middle ground where you got like a really competitive war, you know? Right. You know, what's funny is when you go back and watch the prides, like how Japanese it was. I don't know another way to describe it.

Like at the time, I mean, you know, you know, you. it's like this amazing thing and these big stadiums, you know, these, the best fighters in the world, you go back and fight it and watch and, yeah, they're so quiet. And like, man, and just the whole thing,

like how's, you know, the big show and, you know, some of the odd fights they had. And so many of them were just horrifically boring, just insanely boring. And I just remember being so excited to watch Pride. Like it was the best thing. And I'm like, dude, how do I not fall asleep watching this shit?

And there were so many mismatches and, you know, rumors about stage fights. And, like, there's a lot of shit who was going on in pride that we didn't really think about at the time. Yeah, yeah. Like, we didn't even know that Van der Leigh got knocked out before he came out and fought. You know, got knocked out by Charles Bennett. Yeah. It comes out and fights. And then, like, think about this.

Like, we are, like, with the freak show fights, like, Zeno fought Fadoor at his peak. Could you imagine? Can you imagine taking like some 400-pound like sumo guy and throw him in there against fucking John Jones today or, you know, or Tom Aspinall today and saying this is a legit fight? Like that was Fador at his peak fighting this fucking guy who had zero business being in there with that. Or who was the one guy with the long hair that was had like gigantism like crazy. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Alexander fucked him up. Yeah, oh yeah, I remember that.

Yeah, yeah. I did camera draw a blank on his name. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, like, what the fuck? I always loved that dude for something. I always cheered for him. Or, um, uh, who's the British guy that was gigantic too? Oh, are you doing a semi-Shilt, the kickboxer?

Oh, no, no, no, he was British. I don't remember. Bald hair. I don't remember. A bald head, not hair. I don't remember him. Yeah, he'd remember it if you've seen it. Never mind.

We'll move on. What was the one? Who is the, hold on. What was the other one? The, uh, fuck. Oh, fuck. What am I thinking of now? the other guy that used to go in there and just get absolutely fucking demolished.

God, there was, oh, Bob Sap. He started out for like two seconds, had that fight with No Garrett where he spiked him on his head there. And then, oh, my God, this guy's a beast. And then I think now he's like two at 98 in his last hundred fights or whatever. But he had about five seconds there where he was like, I, dude, I always tell the story. I was at the K1 of Ven Vegas when he fought Kimo. When Kimo beat him and then they gave Bob Sat like nine minutes in the corner to recover. and then he came out and knocked out chemo the next round

because they were trying to set up Bob Sat versus Mike Tyson I'll never forget that and he got fucked up by chemo went back to his corner and they gave him Bob Sat like six minutes to recover it was hilarious and then he comes out and knocks out chemo the next round it's so great brother

that was really good all days man which speaking of I may be going to Thailand in September to do the fight circus have you seen this I know it's like I know exactly what I circus is. Yeah, they want me to do a two-man shirt boxing, right? So like me and another guy wear a shirt and, you know, I got my left. He's got his right and we're boxing two other guys.

That's hilarious. So they actually want to bring you off. You know, it's just going to be, hopefully I get to make it happen and it'll just be a fun thing. You know, it's not going to take serious. It's not going to try to, I mean, I'll try to murder somebody, you know, but we'll have some fun with it though. One of the guys on our staff, Jed is obsessed with Fight Circus. He loves it. It's just so fucking insane. It's so insane. It's just like what's the wildest shit you've ever seen?

Like that, the two shirt boxing's like, oh yeah, that's just like Saturday night for fight circus. Yeah, yeah, or the ice rink boxing. Did they do that? Did they, was it there? They did the actual phone booth fight where they actually put two guys in a fucking phone booth thing? I remember they had the one where they had like five midgets

against one guy. Basically like, I'm, I mean midgets. take to beat this guy. Oh my God, dude. I actually really hope you do that. That'd be fucking hilarious. I think he's going to be awesome, bro. They just put you and Dorian.

They'd put you and Dorian together. That'd be hilarious. They're trying to get Dorian out there too. He's kind of a nomad. You know, you never know where he's going to be. Yeah, you should get Dorian out there. All right, real quick before we get out of here this weekend, Jake Paul fighting Mike Perry boxing match.

For the first time in a while, I'm actually really intrigued by a Jake Paul fight fight because he's not fighting a guy. He is fighting a smaller. guys you know Mike Perry is not a legit they're finding it 200 pounds he's not 200 pounds but Mike Perry is in his prime he's actually a striker and he's got huge knockout power now I love Anderson Silva you love Anderson Silva Anderson Silva Anderson Silva is 47 Tyron Woodley legit one of the best welterweights of all time he's a wrestler Ben Ascran wrestler uh Nate Diaz lightweight yeah lightweight so this is like the first time in a while where like yes I understand

there's still going to be a size discrepancy but dude Mike Perry is a full fucking savage. And he's active competing in boxing, I mean, you know, bare knuckle, but boxing regularly and is a champion at it, you know, beating good guys. So yeah, I'm, I'm with you. Like, I'm pretty excited for this and, you know, I'll actually watch it and I'm glad that it's going down. I'm glad that Jake Paul is actually testing himself against someone, you know, not named Tommy Fury. I brought this up to Mike when I talked to him before the fight. And I I don't know this is actually real. I just,

I pitched this to him. I wondered if there's a little bit of this of Jake Paul getting bullied into this fight because I think we all know what the Mike Tyson fight was. Like, I love Mike Tyson. You love Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson doesn't need to be fucking fighting in 58. He doesn't.

He just doesn't. And I think he got enough blowback where it's almost like, okay, it's almost like if he can go out beat Mike Perry, his reward is fighting Mike Tyson in November on Netflix because Mike, Mike Perry's legit. Like Mike Perry, you beat Mike Perry, it's actually a good win. I'm not saying it's beating Canello or some shit like that, but it's a legit win.

Mike Perry is a real dude. Yeah, we'll at least accept it. Like, Mike Perry's tough and he's got a hard punches. I mean, he just beat Luke Rockholder a few fights ago who's a way bigger guy than him. Like, you know, with wins like that, you're like, okay, like you beat him. We'll at least respect that. Like, I don't think any of us were when he knocked out Ben Astell. and we're like, oh, shit, you're a good boxer, you know,

like, but if he beats Mike Perry, you know, we'll at least, okay, you definitely got something going here. Yeah, yeah. So who are you picking? Who are you picking? Are you picking Jake Paul? You're picking Mike Perry. What's the rules?

Is it going to be eight round, two minutes? Eight rounds, three minutes. Yeah, eight rounds, three minutes, ten ounce gloves. I'm kind of 50-50, you know. I'm a little 50-50 because I do... I think Jake Paul is going to, Jake Paul is going to try to box him. And I think that's, you know, good game plan on Mike Perry. Like you try to box him, jab him and touch him up.

And Mike Perry is very hitable. So I do think he'll get hit. But I think if Mike Perry can take Jake Paul shots, then he's going to end up landing some big shots and hurting Jake Paul. So I'm a little 50-50 on it, to be honest. I know I'm the homer here because, you know, listen, I'd interview the guy all the time. They're like, well, of course you're going to pick him.

But I'm picking Mike Perry, man. I just, I think his fearlessness in there and the way that he's been fighting lately, like, legit good. He's like, he's 32. He's in the prime his career athletically. He's been fucking knocking out people left and right. He's got huge power. And he's actually a striker.

Like, he's not a wrestler with knockout power. Tyre Woodley had legitimate. We all know Tyre Woodley had knockout power. He'd be knock your fucking head off. He landed at right hand. But he wasn't a boxer. He sets it up with his takedowns when he's. you know, when you don't, look when you need to Robbie Law.

Like, he's legitimately got knockout power, but having knockout power is not being a striker. And Ben Asgren, you just made the point there. And, you know, I already talked about Anderson and Nate Diaz. There's just something in the air, man. I think Mike Perry has that I don't give a fuck enough attitude where I'm kind of like, I think you might go in there. And also, Jake tends to gas a little bit later in his fights.

And Perry doesn't slow down. Like, Perry just keeps coming. And so if it's a decision, Jake Paul wins because he'll probably just go out there and stick to his jab and move around the ring and do what he did to Anderson and Nate and those kind of fights. If he gets finished,

I think it's Mike Perry putting Jake Paul down on his ass. So I'm going Mike Perry. Yeah, you didn't say a whole lot different than I did, but I'm just a little more 50-50 on whether Mike can get it done or not because Jake is bigger. He takes a shot. Like he doesn't take a shot poorly.

Like he can get hit and he's tough in his own right, you know, at least to the extent of what we've seen so far. So I'm actually probably, I would say even 5149 for Jake Paul. I think he's got a good shot at winning this fight. And the main thing is because, you know, over a eight-round fight, if Mike Perry doesn't knock him out, like I just don't think Mike Perry throws enough volume, you know, to get it done. Now you're probably, that's why I said if it's a decision, I think Jake Paul wins. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what I also.

We're basically in agreement on this. We are. I mean, that means it's going to go completely different than anything we expect. Like one of them's getting knocked out in the first round or or Jake Paul is to knock out Mike Perry to first round or some crazy shit, you know? And I think it all, listen, I think boxing depends on this way more than MMA, which is weird to say.

But I think it also depends on the referee. Does the referee allow them to work in the clinch? because, you know, obviously Perry's going to look to close the distance, work inside like he does at BKFC, like is he going to be able to work with the body? Are they going to let them fight a little bit there? Are they going to separate him immediately? You know how referees are in boxing. Some guys.

I think that's a good point because Jake Paul does like to hold a lot. Yeah. Like you said, he gases and he likes to hold on the inside. He's not a great inside boxer. That's not his game. That's not what he's looking to accomplish. And that's where Mike Perry wants to be. Yeah, so does a referee allow it to happen?

Some referees do. Some referees don't. So, you know. Yeah, that's a very good point. And, you know, I don't know if, you know, I don't know what they agreed on the ring size either. Yeah. That's usually in boxing. That's usually a little point of contention based off a fighter.

Sometimes it'd be like a 22 foot, sometimes 24. I remember Floyd always had, you know, problems with, I think like Pacquiao wanted a smaller ring. And Floyd wanted a bigger ring was one of their problems. You know, it's just one of those things that happens in boxing. Yeah, I saw you post the rumor. Our boy, Tank Davis, taking on Vassel of Vesely-Livacchinka. Hopefully that happens. My God, I want that fight so bad.

Yeah, that's, I think, that would be the fight of the year so far, except for, you know, except, yeah, maybe Bevol better be of, but, boy, Tank and Loma, that is a high-level fight right there. And the cool thing about that fight, the reason I'm so excited about, at least is we kind of know what's going to happen, I think, but we have no idea which way it's going to go, right? Like either Loma outpoints him, right? He's a way higher volume guy than Tank, and, you know,

he misses, dodges those big shots, or tank flatlines him. Loma's been hitable before. Like, he'll take risk. He's been hitable. You know, he's not, I haven't noticed him being quite as good against Southpaws. Like he tends to work better against. the conventional guys he loves that outside step so you know I could see tank flatlining him but I could see totally see Loma out pointing him and outclassing him I think I'm glad

that's the one because after watching Shakur Stevenson's fight for a couple weeks ago I'm like Jesus Christ I do not want to watch him box again I'm so I can't yeah I can't I he's a talented dude man he is so talented but my God it's just it's just it's a rough watch man it really is. Yeah, it's a rough watch, but he's just going to be so hard to be. I still think he beats Tank and Loma, which... Probably, maybe, but I just, dude, it's just like, which one am I going to get more excited for? I'm way more excited for Tank and Loma than I would be anyone. For sure. For sure. I totally get that. And Shikur is just going to have to play the Floyd game. Like, Floyd was never exciting either. He's, he's about as bad as Shikor in terms of excitement.

but he built excitement in other ways. Yeah. You know what I mean? He became money made weather. That's how you got excited. It became money Mayweather, you know? Yeah, and I's what which the court is going to have to do because nobody, I mean, I was reading Twitter the next morning and it was just a bombardment of I never want to watch that guy again. I was like, I was like, did they put, I joke and I said, did they put out a highlight video of that fight?

And just I got some of many blank stares at me like, what highlights? What highlight are you looking for in this fight? It's funny. You say that because I looked up the highlights and I watched the highlights and even the highlights were boring. I was like watching these highlights. They were right. That's rough. That's rough.

All right. Yeah, so Jake Paul, Mike Perry, this weekend. And then next weekend you and I'll be breaking down UFC 304. I'm super excited for that fight card. Curtis Blades, Tom Aspinall, Leon Edwards, Bilal, Malmah, Muhammad, Patty Pimbled. King Green, no longer Bobby Green. King Green is his name now. Good fight card, man.

Obviously, that's a great fight card. So I'm really looking forward to that one in England next week. So stay tuned for that. Matt, where can people check you out? They want to support you, as always. We talked about dynamic striking earlier. Where else can they support you? I am the immortal social media, Twitter, and Instagram.

The Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. Check out the creeds and gummies at try underscore create. If you want Asana, hit up Redwood Outdoors CEO at Redwood. Redwood Outdoor CO for the best sanas and cold plunges out there. Don't forget, you got a message Laura Sanko. She was looking for a home sauna. I'm like Redwood's got to put that in. Send her message. I keep forgetting it.

Yeah, we'll have to do that. All right, we're going to get out here. As always want to say, a big thank you to everyone that tunes in the show. Make sure you check out of the show on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify. Of course, over on the best website in the world, MMAFighting.com. For Matt Brown, I'm Damon. We'll see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the writer. Thanks for tuning it in.

that. The Vox Media Podcast Network. Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first, there, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes. Hi, I'm Sophia Loper Caro, host of the Before the Chorus podcast.

We dive into the life experiences behind the music we love. Artists of all genres are welcome, and I've been joined by some pretty amazing folks. like glass animals. I guess that was the idea was to try something personal and see what happened. And Japanese breakfast. I thought that the most surprising thing

I could offer was an album about joy. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, and remember, so much happens before the chorus.