MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Talks UFC Fighter Pay Issues Amid Ongoing Antitrust Lawsuit

Episode Date: August 27, 2024

UFC legend Matt Brown discusses the ongoing debate about fighter pay in the UFC and he uses his own career as an example on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer while discussing a disparity between the UFC and other major sports leagues, the lack of a union, the ongoing antitrust lawsuit and how fighters actually maintain a lot of the blame why they’re not being paid more. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the Fighter versus the writer. I'm Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, we are back for another week. Not a big action-packed weekend in the world of combat sports and not a whole lot coming up this weekend for the holiday. We got Labor Days.

There's literally nothing going on this weekend. But still staying busy out there. You're rocking some guitar, doing some learning some Trivium songs. Trying, man. It's just hard, bro. It's a grind. But, yeah, I love it, man. So hopefully maybe me and Heafi one day are going to do a little collab or something, put something together, and maybe start working towards my next phase of life as a rock star.

What do you call it, a heavy metal star, rock star? Did you ever, were you ever, were you ever in a band? I've never once been in a band, actually. Yeah, I try to play a band. I'm definitely like good enough to play in bands. But, you know, I've been invited in it for bands. and then, you know, we'd go rehearse and get shit-faced drunk and then, you know, nothing happened, you know. But I'd say in the past couple years since I, like, start posting shit on Instagram.

Like, I've had a lot of people hit me up that want to do things. It's just a matter of being able to focus that much time and energy on it because I'm just, I'm not going to do it like half-ass. Yeah, it's a commitment. I think it's fun. Like, I know, like, there's, like, a lot of, like, local bands to do, like, cover bands and, like, You play shows like that just for fun. Like, I think that would be fun.

I don't know. Like, I tried to play in a band when I was a kid. Like, I think you were one of two things. Either you were like an athlete or you wanted to be an artist in high school. And I was like, I wanted to be a rock star like from like my, like my junior and senior or high school going into college. And then I realized I'm not really that good at it. And I'm better off, you know, just being on the sidelines as a fan for music.

But I think everyone at one point, another wants to be a rock star. So it could be your, it could be your post-UFC career. a rock star. I'm definitely good. Like I play good enough, I think, but I don't know. We'll see. Like the problem these days, too, is there's just hardly any money in it.

Like, it's so hard to make money. Like, you have to get big. And I like metal. And there's no money, girls, or fame in metal. Like, you're literally just, you know, play into a bunch of, you know, I don't know,

20-year-old zip-faced fatties. They're just mad at their parents. And it's a yeah, which is, you know, if they pay some bills, that's cool. But it's wild how like the music industry's changed so much because like digital and streaming. I saw this thing on, I think it was on TikTok or it was on Instagram. One of the, I can't remember what band it was. It was like a fairly prominent band. A guy from the band released his streaming revenue from like Spotify and Apple Music and everything.

Did you see this? I've seen a few of them there. I care. It was a pretty big rock band. I care of who it was. but he put it out there, and, like, he showed for, like, six months of Spotify. Like, they had millions upon millions of plays, and I think he got, like, $4 or something wild like that. Or it was, like, $50 or $100 or $100.

It was real low. It was remarkably low for, like, how many listens they had. It was, I may be exaggerating. It may have been, like, a couple hundred bucks. It was still, like, remarkably low for what he actually, like, for the amount of listens. And, like, he showed, like, his whole invoice. And, like, he got, like, two grand. And, like, this is for, like, all the different streaming services.

Like, Jesus Christ, man, like, that sucks. I mean, the guys that are making money now are these YouTubers. You know, the YouTube guitar players, you know, like, that's where the money is now. It's not, even, you know, Matt Hefe, the Tribium guy, he told me he makes, he didn't give me numbers or anything. But he said he makes his living based off of Twitch these days. Oh, yeah, Twitch is huge. And I'm sure he's still doing great, you know, with Trivium. I mean, they're a legendary band.

go on tour. You know, they certainly make money going on tour, selling merch, things like that. But I don't know. I could tell just from our little conversation about I didn't dig deep or anything. But, you know, the Twitch is what's really paying his bills. I don't think he does it as much anymore. But, I mean, I know that's a big part of how Sean O'Malley, you know, when he first came up in the UFC, how he got really a big fan base was he twitched all the time. He gamed on Twitch and he got a huge fan base because I remember I interviewed him. I can't remember it was a couple years ago This was before he was like Before he was like full on sugar show show show

I'm out of Malay Like this is maybe like three or four fights To the JOC career And he was still super popular And he was going on Twitch and doing that stuff And he was dropping his first clothing like collaboration Like with like sugar Sean material And he told me about it on the podcast

And I did the interview put the interview out there And I remember he said like it's dropping like next week I was like oh cool I'll keep an eye out And so I saw it drop on Twitter or whatever I was like oh he there's the collab You know all his stuff And I was oh cool

And I think I saw it and I was busy and I didn't look at it. It was like I went back so I wanted to see what it was. So I clicked on the link. And so it was like three hours later maybe. Everything gone, sold out. Like it's just everything shirts, t-shirts, you know, hoodies. Within like three hours it sold out. And that's, I, like, that was all based on Twitch because at that point, like he was doing it.

He had announced it on Twitch and he was like, you know, it's coming. The link will be put on Twitch, his Twitch channel, whatever it was. And it sold out in like three hours. I don't know how much stuff he had. don't know if that was like 100 pieces or 10,000 pieces, but like within three hours it was gone. Like I was like, geez, that's impressive. So like, I know Jen's Pulver does it too.

Jim's Palmer's a big gamer. I know he does it on there and he twitches. I know Demetrius Johnson, a guy you know very well. Like that, so there's money to be made in it, man. Like I said, you can't just be, you can't just be resigned to one thing. Like you can be a, you know, multifaceted person and make money as a lot of ways these days. Yeah. For me, it kind of sucks because, like, I'm not.

afraid of the camera like i i like doing the podcast and i like speaking and all that kind of stuff but like i don't have any desire to like you do things like that you know i mean i think it's uh there's probably a lot of people like me out there um that probably could be making money in that way but it's like it's not interesting you know i mean like i want to be in the gym i want to be grinding i want to be you know on the mats sweating with my boys and you know it's just like different values you know but I don't know. It just made me think of that for some reason. Car about your niche, man.

That's the thing I found out like over these last couple of years, like my thing recently for MMA, because I've been doing this for so long. Like my thing in the last couple years is I've really gotten into business reporting, doing a lot of business. Like obviously when the UFC went public with Endeavour and now with TKO Group Holdings. Like I do a lot of business reporting financial calls.

It may seem boring to a lot of people, but to me it's super interesting just to see like how much money is actually coming into the sport and things like that and like the big TV deals coming up next year for the EOC like I've done a ton of reporting on that. So that's kind of like it because that doesn't like that that's a kind of like flexes my creative muscles in a different way because I don't, it's not necessarily about like oh let me reach out and talk to a fighter

let me confirm a fight. The kind of daily grind that just gets into it. So like the business reporting stuff has been fun for me and I really enjoyed it. So I think it's just like carving out that niche like for you. I know we talked like you doing the dynamic striking thing like you know We were just talking off air about like, I tried to play guitar as a kid, and I gave up because I just, I was never, I never got good at it. And I was always learning from a person because we were growing up, the internet wasn't big, you know, like it wasn't around to the level it is now. Now you can just go on YouTube.

Like, you can just go on YouTube and learn. So, like, I know you do dynamic striking. Like, I've always said, dude, like, I think your technique stuff, like, there's your chance to do it in the gym and let people learn from you that way. Because people can't come to Ohio and train Matt Brown. Well, yeah, you technically can train him Matt Brown. I just do it on YouTube. Yeah, and I've got a lot more stuff that's going to be coming out. I'm working on some dynamic striking stuff right now.

But also, you know, I've been doing a lot of these seminars, you know, where I go out to them. And I'm really enjoying that. I like running the gym, the business. And honestly, of all of those things, like running a businessman is probably like the most fulfilling, rewarding thing that there is. Just I'm helping the community. I'm helping, you know, I think all of my employees, when they first came on were basically going broke. Like they were living pretty shitty.

And now they're living decent lives. They get to stay in a gym all day and train and teach others. And so that's like a cool thing. You know, there's so many people in different ways that you can touch different people. And, you know, when they say when the tide rises, all the ships come up, right? And that's just what I'm trying to do, man. So I don't know how we got onto that. But that's a.

Did you? You know, this is so random I'm thinking about, I don't know why I thought about this when you said seminars. This was going back months. Did you do a seminar? I think it was in Florida. Did you do a seminar with Mataroyos, Jim? Do I remember that somewhere along the line?

Did you not? Okay. Why do I feel like I thought. The reason I brought that up is I saw Matt Arroyo was on TikTok or something, and I saw him doing like seminars on TikTok. I was like, oh, I haven't seen this guy in years. I guess he's got a gym, I think, in Florida, whatever. And it clicked to my head.

Yeah, Jim's killing it. So I hung out with Matt. we use where we're under the same business consultant group okay yeah so did you take a photo with them or something maybe yeah yeah yeah we yeah we our business consultant group had an event down in florida and i went down and matt happened to be there we hung out you know talked about our fight talked about you know different things like that was what actually sparked the idea when um i think i've mentioned it to you where you know when i start my own podcast eventually someday that been talking about for 20 years now.

You know, one of the things I want to do is talk about my own fights and what the, you know, what the backstory was, how was training camp, you know, what was going on with the family, what was going on in my life outside of that, where did I go, what kind of injuries were I dealing with? And then bring on my opponents also, let's talk to them. What was going on your life? What was going on, you know, behind the scenes? What was the lead up to the fight?

Like, how nervous were you? You know, what about after the fight? Things like that. And then eventually start getting into. to other fights too. You know, the you know, GSP and Matt Sarah, right?

Like talk about the lead up to that fight. You know, Anderson Silva, Damon Maya, you know, what was it like? What were you thinking? What was your game plan? How did it work? Did anything work? Did anything not work?

You know, the techniques. And I think that would be a lot of fun. I think people would really get into that. Well, that's what, that's why I think I made me ahead of my head. It was a seminar because I saw you and Matt post together. And I'd see him, he popped up on my TikTok. recently like he's doing like little jihitsu instructionals on TikTok which I thought was cool

but it reminds me of that yeah and it reminded me that that's why I thought about the seminar but I saw you together and it just clicked to my head and it just clicked to my head like oh yeah that was your first ever UFC fight was Mataroya I always I remember all your fights but I just always remember that was the first and I just always remember matter away from that and I saw I did that's what

it was it wasn't a seminar as a photo you took together and I was like hey first time UFC UFC fighters right there together so another thing that sparked that idea was because so me and him had actually fought before that, which a lot of people may or may not know. We fought in a small show in Florida, and I took that fight on 24 hours notice. And so me and him were kind of talking about our experience, you know, getting that first fight, right? Because he had an opponent. So he made weight

and everything, and that his opponent didn't show up. I was actually cornering some girl that was fighting and you know I flew down to Florida with her and you know was cornering for and on the way to the way ends I heard the promoter talking or whoever was given us a ride and he was like oh you know he's out like okay well I don't know what we're going to do we want mad on the car whatever and I'm sitting in the back just overhearing and I just speak up I say hey well you know what weight do you need a fighter at he's like I was like well I'm not 170 but I fight at 170 I'm like 180 85 right now I'll fight tomorrow and he goes really I was like yeah I need like because okay so the other part of that was I seen the opportunity because I didn't know if this girl was gonna win or

lose and she was like somewhat my girlfriend at the time and basically if she was going to win then she was going to help me pay my rent right so I was behind on rent back home so I was like damn if she loses you know I might not have my rent so I'll take this fight I said look you I need 400 bucks and I'll take the fight. He's like, done, called Matt. And it happened. So I got the 400 bucks, got my rent paid, got a W on the record. But anyway, so me and Matt were kind of talking about that, our experience with it,

you know, when we first seen each other, when we found out we were fighting, you know, how we talked with a promoter and everything. And it was kind of funny because it was a little bit of a different experience for each of us. And we kind of remembered things a little bit differently. So that made it kind of interesting. I think that'd be like cool stories that a lot of people would like to hear. Real fighting championships

was the name of the promotion. I just looked at him. I completely forgot you fought him before you fought him off the ultimate fighter. I completely forgot about that. Yeah. Made the rent though.

You got the rent done and you got a win. I got the rent. And the girl did lose. She got her ass kicked really bad. And you know who I met when I was there? Because I didn't have a corner when I was there either, right? Because I was there cornering someone else.

I didn't know anyone on the card. Howard Davis Jr. ended up helping me out. Really? He was cornering someone. I didn't really know who he was. I kind of, you know, I knew he was a boxer. Like I didn't know, you know, all the guys he was working with or how good he really was. And I still remember to this day.

Like, he helped me with my uppercut, hook, cross, combo. And I was like, damn, you know, those little tips that he gave me in the back, warming up for that fight, I still use those tips today and give them to other people. They were very good tips. And I don't know if I actually used that combo when I went out there, but yeah, he ended up. I can't remember if he actually cornered me or not. But he definitely helped me warm up in the back. Yeah, that was pretty cool, you know.

That's funny. I see. And yeah. So you fight, you fight Mataroyo, you beat him, you beat Douglass Lehman, your next fight. And then what is it like? two years later, almost two years later, you fight Matt again.

And hold on here. Is this time, okay, the first time you beat him in the second round at 250, second time you beat him was $3.40 in the second round. So, yeah,

Matt Royo does not have a whole lot of luck against Matt Brown. Sorry, Matt. I'm just saying, like, that's not his... After two, after two fights,

he sees you, he just crosses the street like, shit, I don't want to do this again. This is not a good idea. No, he was a really cool guy, man. We hung out some, and they said we were kind of talking

about the fights a little bit, and, you know, matchups make fights. And, you know, there's a lot of guys that he could be. I was surprised he didn't stay with the UFC. But it was even more interesting talking to him when it kind of inspired me to retire a little bit, being that, you know, I'm sitting there with a guy that I beat about 15 years ago. And we're talking about our gyms and the revenue that we're getting and stuff. And he's doing like eight or nine times my revenue.

You know, he was in town. a Brightling watch while he was there, you know, like a $20,000 watch, you know, and I'm looking at the clothes he's wearing. And I'm like, so I beat your ass. And I've been, and I stuck with the UFC. And I'm wearing like, you know, fucking basic shit. And you're over here buying, you know, you decided you're going to take the path of a gym owner and you're over here killing it.

Like, maybe I'm in the wrong business. You know. I can't remember if I retired before that or not. I don't think so. But either way, it inspired me to realize like how much, how much more the gym could be. And just being at those events, that's what it's really all about, just realizing the potential of your gym.

You know, there's a lot of guys there that are doing over a million dollars a year at their gym. You know, I think at the time we were doing like, you know, 300 or something. 300k revenue per year. So just being around, you know, people like that, you know, I know Matt's doing over a million a year. Being around people like that and seeing what the real potential is was really inspiring for me.

And, you know, it gave me hope that there is a path after fighting. It's not, it's not just, I'm retiring, I'm going to wait for a bare knuckle to call me or wait for a slap fight or, you know, whatever other way to make money beating people up. Yeah, let me ask you this because it's funny you brought that up because you're talking about like back in when you fought, Matarroa the first time, those $400 to make rent. And I feel like the regional shows, you know, you're still probably, a lot of regional shows, you're probably still not making more than $400. There was an article that came out recently talking about like contender series wages where guys get paid like 10 and 10 or 12 and 12 coming up to Contender Series and like how that's still considerably low by the actual revenue made by the UFC, which is absolutely true because I just said, I do business reporting. I know exactly how much the UFC's making, at least based on what they're reporting, and it's a whole lot of money. But a couple people talked about that.

They said, listen, you may think it's low, but, you know, if you win the contender series and you get signed to 10 and 10, or you're on the contend series making 5 and 5.5. I think that's what they pay on the contender series. 5,000 to fight, 5,000 to win. If you get signed, it's like you started the 10,000 to fight, 10,000 to win mark. But the manager is brought up, and I mean, like it or not, it's a reality. He was saying, like, you may think it's low. we understand like the revenue and all those kind of things but you're like but if you go and this same fighter goes and fights on a regional show if they make two grand it's a it's a it's a

big amount of money because regional shows so it's weird like we have this idea about fighter pay and trust me i you know my opinion i said all everybody's underpaid i think connor mcgrger's underpaid he's the iSpaid guy in the sport um but like there's always those like levels like you know when you first come in like the guy making 10 and 10 sounds low and you're like man the uc's making money hand over fist. But then if that same guy goes and fights in a show in, you know, Rockford, Illinois or, you know, Pittsburgh or just some random local show, they may get a grand. Like, they may get $1,500. So it's like, I'm not justifying what the UFC does because I think they obviously, I mean, you know, 50% of the revenue goes to the athletes in most other

sports and the UFC's getting like between 16 and 20%. Certainly not advocating they should pay less or they're paying enough. But I think that's the harsh reality of support. don't think about is like if you're not in the UFC you go fight in your local show and even you know here in Ohio you probably make a thousand dollars and that's good money on a local show yeah I mean there's a lot of different sides to that argument and there's a whole lawsuit going on about that argument right now right so you know we'll find out what the justice system has to say about it you know assuming that the plaintiff's lawyers and that the you know everything is truthfully being done for the good of the fighters, which we don't even know that either, right? I mean,

if there's a settlement or the UFC wins, or if the, I'm sorry, if the fighters, plaintiffs win, then the lawyers are going to get fucking Buku money, right? So, you know, it's only in their interest to try to figure out a way to get paid, right, whether that helps us or not. So I don't know ethically enough about the case to say if it's actually out there trying to help the fighters, or if the lawyers are looking for a payday. But with that said, that's why I always tell the fighters coming up, they need to view it properly because the way that you make money in the sport is not necessarily through your fight first.

And there's certainly a justification, or at least, you know, whether you agree with it or not, you know, there is a side that the UFC is going to have. We're like, we are the show. You know, we are the one magnifying your brand. We are the one giving you the opportunity, you know, to be on this big stage. And if you don't want to do it, we got other people that would do it. So, you know, I do see their side of things.

But like you said, if you want to make it a legitimate sport, given, you know, 10, 15, 20% of revenue, just isn't, you know, a legitimate way to do that. And I kind of wonder now, personally, I ask the question, because it is an accepted sport worldwide now, you know, I don't think they actually care about it being a legitimate sport anymore. I think that kind of went out the window a while ago

and then it just became a business. And when you're running a business, like I run a business, if someone doesn't come to me, if one of my employees doesn't come to me and ask for a raise, I'm probably not going to walk up to him and say, hey, would you like a raise? You know what I mean? Now, I actually do.

do do that because, you know, I want them to be happy. You know, if I can, if I think they're just being shy about it and, you know, they don't, you know, or maybe they're, they're just not comfortable coming and ask, you know, every personality is a little bit different. You know, I will do that, but I wouldn't necessarily expect a business to do that either. You know, I don't think that's necessarily in the best interest of a business. You know, if they went to 1,200 fighters and said, hey, all of you just deserve more money. You know, that's millions or potentially billions of dollars that could be changed. So again, I do think that there's really two very complicated, complex sides to this argument.

But the point overall is, look, if you're going to, if you're aspiring UFC fighter or or a MMA fighter, you need to view the UFC as what it is. It is a stage to magnify your brand so that you can make money in other ways. And that's where you're going to make the real money.

Unless, you know, even Carter McGregor, you know, I mean, he certainly could have retired just off the UFC money that he, or the money that he made in the UFC, but he's made what, probably 10, 20 times more outside of

UFC and that's the way you that's the way you got to do it we're just talking about last week with michael chandler like like you know we know he wants this payday but or it seems that that's what he wants but it doesn't really make sense to me because i know he has some really big things going on outside the ufc making good money uh henry sehuto just posted about the other day he was like he fight versus i put him in real estate and that's how you know you make sustainable long-term income even me i took my money put in my gym put in real estate that's how you make longer term money and So any fighters coming up, they need to be recognizing that. And I'm with you too.

I mean, I hope that that changes some time where, you know, like an NFL player, you know, might only have four years, but, you know, they don't necessarily have to or need to, as long as they live below their means, which is pretty easy to do when you're making, you know, millions of dollars a year, you know, they could retire just off of their four years in fighting where in the UFC, that's just not the case. Yeah, it's interesting because, like, when you look at the lower end of the guys, you know, the guys make a 10 and 10, obviously, you know, the EOC could certainly afford to double or triple that. But then you look at the top end and you say, well, okay, so the guy just come up to contenders here is making 10 and 10, okay, like, could you pay him more? Absolutely.

But then you think it's a weird thing because then you think about the top end, you say, well, look at, you know, Sean O'Malley or you look at Connor or you look at John Jones. like you were thinking, well, they're making good money. Like, they're making $5 million. So, like, they're okay. But the reality is what they're actually earning for the UFC. The revenue, like, John Jones should probably be making $10 million or Sean O'Malley should be making $20 million. So it's a weird thing because, and that's, I mean, listen, I've seen these stories on sports. Like, I saw it, I think it was on like real sports on HBO a couple years ago.

They talked about how little money minor league baseball players get paid. Like, they get like shit, like $20,000 a year or something crazy like that. Yeah. And they're on the road, like a professional baseball team for like seven months out of the year making like 20 grand or 25 grand ridiculously low money. But then you go to the Major League Baseball. You get, you know, Aaron Judge, who just signed like a $400 million contract or whatever insane amount of money they're making. It's a weird thing because we talk like the Contender Series guys making $20,000 if he wins if he fights and wins his fight. And you're like, man, that's just so little money.

And you're right. Like in theory, yes, that is not a lot of money for, you know, a guy fighting in the UFC. the biggest organization in the world. But then there's also the side of like, we kind of tend to forget a little bit more about the John Joneses where you're like, well, John made $5 million. Like he's good. But is he, should he made $10 million?

Like $12 million? 13 million? That's where the conversation, again, it's a very complex conversation because who wins in the UFC financially is really the mid-range guys. You know, the guys like me. Like I was, you know, I wasn't a champion. I wasn't, you know, the biggest draw.

Even though, you know, I made an event it a couple of times, but I wasn't like the biggest draw. Whereas in other sports, like, you know, there's more top guys like in football, right? There's, I don't know how many, there's like 52 players on a team, right? And you got what? 53. Yeah, 53. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, there's a. And every one of them is getting paid well. In boxing, you know, all the top guys are paid enormously huge purses. Like, they're paid very, very well. But then the next guy down is getting shit, right? the only difference in UFC is like, okay, your top is lower, but your mid is higher.

You know, and the bottom isn't quite as low, right? So everybody from like, you know, number five or 10 in the world down is doing way better than they would in any other sport, but the guys at the top are not doing as good as they would in other sports. Yeah, it's an interesting thing because, like I said, I don't know there's a, I mean, listen, I think we all agree the EOC could pay fighters more. but I think you got to understand your argument is all I'm saying. You understand your argument.

You're saying the contender series guy like these guys deserve more. You're not wrong in saying they deserve more. I certainly agree with that. But I think sometimes we do get lost. Like when you think about the highest thing guys, like Sean O'Malley making, I don't know what he's making. I'm guessing he's probably going to make a few million dollars for his fight against Marab and then with pay-per-per-view points maybe a couple million more.

And you're like, why you made $5 million? That sounds like good money, right? That sounds like, you know, he just made $5 million a lot of money. but did the UFC make 70 million on the car? Shouldn't he have made another 10 million or 15? So it's a weird thing because we don't think, and sometimes we get lost now where the big guys, the high-paid guy, the really high-paid guys,

where they're doing fine. Yeah, they're doing fine, but they probably should be doing a whole lot better because I'm not diminishing the value of a contender series guy or an ultimate fighter guy coming to the UFC, absolutely, but they're not who people are tuning in to watch. Like it or not. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And so it's a weird thing. Like, I'm certainly advocating for them to get more money, 100%. Whether it's double that or, you know, 1.5 times as much, I don't know what the magic number is. But there's far more of those guys on the roster. But I also, again, I think we get lost sometimes. We think, well, you know, Sean O'Malley's making $10 million or $5 million. Good for him.

Yeah, I'm happy for him. But shouldn't he be making $20? Like, isn't he doing the revenue to bring in $20? Like, you know, so it's, yeah. And it's very complex. And like one of the analogies I kind of use is like, If you're building houses, right, you're the only person building mansions, right? Like the UFC, they're the mansions, right?

Like, you're the only person building them. And, you know, maybe they're selling that mansion for, you know, $100 million. And you're only getting $5 million to build it. You know, it's like, but there's nowhere else that you can go to be building these mansions, right? Now, you could go to the construction company down the street and build regular residential homes, you know, make your 20K a year or whatever. But if you want to, you know, go to the peak and build the real mansions,

you know, you have to play ball with those that are in that world. So, you know, it's just, it's a tough, tough fucking subject, you know, there's just not really a right answer. And it's hard to step back,

or it's hard to expect the UFC to just be completely fair about it. Like they're running a business and they run it very fucking well. They've done an amazing job

building their business. And I think 99% of people in their shoes would probably be doing very similar to what they're doing. Does that make it right? That's up to each person to decide on their own. And it's

I think it's just way more complex than people than people give it credit for, right? Like anytime you see any Instagram posts about Fider Pay or Twitter posts about it, you know, I see it a lot more on Twitter than on Instagram, I guess.

You know, people always just compartmentalize it down to such simple little things like, like revenue share and things like that. And I just think it's way more complex. And that's why there's a lawsuit that's been going on for 10 years about it because it's a very, very complex subject. And with all that I said, do I think the UFC good and should be paying us more? Yes. But it's like, okay, the lawsuit is, okay, should they ethically be paying us more or should they legally be paying us more? I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that ethically

they shouldn't be paying fighters more, right? I mean, I think that's just a, that should just be a standard across the board like they have more money to pay you know like i love dana but look he doesn't need a half billion dollars in the bank like you just don't right like like i mean he he earned it but and and i think you know he deserves it but you know when he's given waitresses you know 10 000 dollar tips and in the fighters you know two or three thousand dollar bonuses it's you know something's not right there yeah it's it's like i said it's not an easy subject and you're absolutely right when you look at you know i mean any corporation like the uc has a brighter light shining on it because it's a a very public sport and it's a sport and you can compare

it to other sports you can say look the NFL which is the richest league and in all the sports um you know their players get 50 percent now you can you can drill that down and look there was just a lawsuit you know for the whole concussion thing that whole thing where they're like you know players were getting banged up with concussions and the NFL never paid out, you know, money, what it should have been, and, you know, and benefits and all that kind of stuff. They got taken to court. They lost a huge lawsuit over that. But, yeah, it's weird.

And the other reality is, and again, people aren't going to like hearing this, but it's true. We've had a lot of people with money try to compete with the UFC, and it's just not worked. I mean, Mark Cuban has a million successful businesses, and he's got more money. and he'll spend in the next 20 lifetimes. He tried to do MMA, and he got out of it pretty quick. Affliction tried. They paid Tim Sylvia $800,000 to buy Fador. That went away into events.

There's no right or wrong reason. PFL, I'm not knocking PFL. I hope PFL stays incredibly successful and they go nowhere. But PFL doesn't make money. They're not making profit. Do they break? I only think they break even. There's no way they can break even.

Like, it's not possible for the money they're in. And by the way, that's not a knock on PFL, that's investing in business. There's a ton of businesses that aren't turning a profit. They just get, you know, they're building towards eventually. Yeah, they're eventually building towards making a profit. But PFL doesn't make any money. You know what I'm glad to. I do like what one championship is doing.

Whether they're profitable or not, it doesn't seem like it. You know, like it's not, you know, they're not based in America. So, you know, the finances aren't quite as clear as, you know, here in America. but I like what they're doing, though, bringing Muay Thai to the spotlight, bringing grappling to the spotlight, and they have great fighters too in MMA. They put on a great show.

I like their rule set. I like, you know, I think there's some things that could be improved, but I really do like what they're doing over there. Yeah, I don't think they're in great financial shape, though, either. So, you know, it's... Probably not. But that's what I'm getting at.

Like, you know, people have tried, you know, people have absolutely tried. And I remember seeing the report, like when the UFL, the other football league, when they came together, whatever it was, like I saw what their players were making. Their players were making like 40 grand a year or something, 50 grand a year. Right. Now, granted, you know, they're not, you know, but that's, and that is still considered professional. That's still considered professional football, you know.

Right. You are getting paid for us, so it's professional. You know, and when we talk about all this things, so the one thing we can't forget is, you know, we talk about the NFL, MLB, all. as well as they have unions uh if anybody is to blame for the fighter pay it's the fighters and i'm one of them you know at least formerly like i never bought against the ufc about my pay and you know you've seen i'm sure on instagram and twitter or you know different uh interviews where the the fighters stick up for the ufc and like i've never heard of a a business in my life where the employees

not you know if you want to call us employees even subcontractors where they're going to say yeah I shouldn't be getting paid more like they're paying me perfectly amount of money like I'm like that is so unbelievable to me and look I've never even I've always been happy with how the UFC's treated me I like them uh this is like no hate against them at all but if I thought that you know sticking up for myself and and fighting with them about pay would get me paid more i would absolutely do it in a heartbeat and i only question if guys are saying that because we know the amount of power that they have like if you try fighting against them your chances of getting more pay just get diminished you're just lowering your chances now of getting more pay so of course you know you publicly stick up for them

even though something in the back of your head is saying damn you know like this isn't really what I want. Well, and to that point, like to your union point, like the reality is, you know, they have those collective bargaining agreements. There's a reason why the NFL has a collective bargaining agreement. They pay 50% of the profits or 50% of the revenue back to the players. And then, you know, NFL and NBA try to control that with what they, they have their salary cap where they try to cap out, like how much you can pay.

There's a max contract, things like that. But, you know, LeBron James is still making $30 million a year or whatever. You know, like he's not hurting. It's not like he goes to Burger King and he can't get the extra cheese on his whopper because he doesn't have the extra money in the bank. And you look at, you know, football, same thing, basketball, same thing, baseball, same thing. And listen, you're absolutely right. Like it or not, and this is not what people want to hear. The reality is if you own a business and you're making a lot of money, as you said, you're not, while there are, there are examples of business owners who will willingly just hand out money to employees, that's not the way of the world.

Like business owners want to make more money. They're not just going to voluntarily give it away. Now, there's going to be a certain workforce with unions and things like that where they negotiate for that. And they're like, well, I have to pay you that much. And again, you're absolutely right. Like, I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's, I'm not justifying it. I'm saying that the fighters have had plenty of time to come together and coalesce and say,

hey, we're going to, you know, we're going to start a union. We're going to fight for our rights. It's never happened. You know how many times I've been approached by people's. saying we're going to try to start a union in MMA and it just I mean you remember back in the day they had that big announcement with it was like King Velasquez Cowboys Soroni GSP

all these guys got together and then it just went nowhere and that was the closest one that has ever happened I mean I think there's a couple now that are you know trying to do some things but as far as I can tell that was the closest one and the dude running it was a complete scammer yeah like like the best thing that fighters have ever had in their power was ran by a fucking scammer and and you know we can't forget the fact that like

that look if you chose fighting as a career at some point in your life you decided i'm going to put my life on the line in front of millions of people for money like there's something going on in your head right there's something not ticking properly right there's something Like you decided, okay, I could go to college. I could, you know, be an engineer. I could, you know, I could do this, right? I could build a construction business. I could, you know, flip house, whatever it is, you know, build a business.

A million things out there you could do. But you decided that what you want to do with your life is go in front of millions of people and try to knock people out knowing that at some point you're going to get knocked out. You're going to get fucked up to. Like it happens to everybody. Like there's something. wrong with your head. So to think that these types of people are the types that are going to be entrepreneurial

and stick up for themselves and be really, you know, aware of social things and different, you know, I think it's kind of silly to think that that's the way it's going to work, you know. Every sport for the most part, not, I don't know if I say every, but for the most part, like every sport, like, every sport, They get into these different, like, social things, and they're almost always, like, something ridiculous or silly, you know, because, like, that's not what a fighter's life is based around. You know, we, it's all, you know, a fighter or an athlete, I should say, an athlete's life that's not what it's based around.

We're not, for the most part. I mean, I think there's some extremely intelligent fighters, some extremely intelligent athletes, but for the most part, like, you know, these aren't deep thinking philosophical people. Well, and that's what always astounds, man. I don't want to, people are going to lose their minds when I bring this up, but it's like, it's like the blind support. We always talk about, like, the wildly blind support for politicians. And, like, there's a lot of times where I'm just, listen, I'm not trying to turn this into a political conversation.

I'm just saying, like, if you, like, the vast, I think you'd agree with me, Matt, the vast majority of UFC fighters or people around the UFC support Donald Trump. Okay, again, I don't care. That's fine. Do what you want. But if you look at Donald Trump's history, he hates unions, you know, like, his. business history is not like he's a worker first. That's never been his business while. He's not a union guy.

And unions are obviously a big part of that. That's why every union person out there pretty much always supports Democrats because they're always the union. They're like the party of unions. And then you think about like the Ali Act, you know, like how that's in there and like, you know, things like that. And little like little things that could make a difference. But you just blindly support someone because you're like, I like Donald Trump.

He's my guy. but well that's just I think that's also just an unfortunate consequence of the the state of the country period right it seems to me like

like there's either the people that love these politicians as people they don't they no one even knows policies or what's actually going on no one has like four fundamental values that they're like oh my my senator or my president whatever

you know upholds these values and that's why I'm voting for him. It seems that the situation we're in right now, particularly, but I think it's been similar to this in the past. It's just been, you know, you like the guy on your team. You don't know who he is or, you know, what he's actually about. You just like the way he is. And now the situation that we're in is either you like Trump

because of the person that he is the persona that he exemplified. eyes and you know regardless of what he actually does right they don't care about that they're like well it's the persona or you're on the other side because it's not trump and and that's as far as i can tell you know like i don't i don't think there's a whole lot of people that uh love Biden or Harris's fucking persona you know but they're like well he's not Trump so it's good enough for me and my argument against the whole thing which you know me me and me and me and you know me and you have had our political differences and arguments in the past. And I'm always, I never care.

But the, you know, my thing is, especially when you're a fighter, right? If you get a $100,000 paycheck, you're going to give at least 20%, probably 25 or 30% of that to that administration. Trump isn't going to lower that for you. And Kamala Harris or Biden is not going to lower that for you. So why do you give a fuck? Which one it is. They're both pieces of shit.

Like they are both going to stick their hands in your pocket and say, give us that money. If you don't give us that money, we're going to put a gun in your face and lock you in a cage. Like, I went out and earned that money. Like, why should I have to give it to you?

And, you know, that's, of course, its own different debate, right? I'm a taxationist's theft guy through and through. And I, for life of me, I can't understand an argument against that. But, you know,

they're all going to do the same thing to you. Like none of them are on your side. It's like the argument you made earlier about, you know, when you see the fighters who are like, you know, they're on Twitter or Instagram saying, I love the EOC. They pay me great. They're the best organization in the world.

And I think they're amazing. And you're like, you don't really see that in other sports where they're like, oh, no, they're paying me plenty. Like, I don't need more money. That just doesn't really happen in other sports. And that's kind of like the thing I don't like the Trump thing. Like you're like, Trump's the best.

He's my guy. I love this guy. and you're like, but you realize like when he's in office, like it's not like he made your life dramatically better. Like he didn't cut your taxes. He didn't, uh, he didn't say, hey, we're going to create a union

for you fighters because you deserve more money. We're going to do. No. And so it's just like things like that. And you're right. Like it's this tribalism thing in this and I get it. And I don't. It's very, it's very, very similar to sports.

Right. Which I, it always blows me away, even you, Damon, how you're all about the bingles. Like, like, how everybody's, like, so much about one team when, like, the players don't care about the fucking team. The players are, I mean, they're, you pay them enough, they go to this team. They have no loyalty whatsoever to a team. But everybody around the stadium are die hard for that fucking team. And it's like, dude, they'll replace the fucking star quarterback next year.

They'll replace the coach next year. All of these people. or be replaced in a heartbeat. And your team isn't even your team now. Now, like, you're just, you're literally only being loyal to the colors. And that's what politics has become. They're just loyal to the colors. And at this point, I'm like, these motherfuckers don't even need to debate.

They don't need to talk, you know, Harris, if she had, is she going to be the fucking one? You know, Harris and Trump. they don't need to say a word the entire time. No one's changing their fucking mind. Right? Everybody, right? Like, you're not going to convince the Browns guy to come to the bingles. Yeah.

Yeah, it's just, it's a weird thing. And like I said, this is like we could have a conversation about fighter pay for the next three days. And it's not. And the reality is, here's the reality. We're talking about this right now. We've had this same conversation for a decade. You know, like ever since, ever since the UFC started. I mean, I think the biggest conversation started 2016 when they sold for $4.2 billion.

Everyone was like, hold on now. UFSI is worth $4.2 billion and I got a $5,000 paycheck for my last bonus. What the fuck? I think that's kind of what woke people up. But that was, that's almost nine years ago now. Nothing is really, I mean, are fighters making more now than they were in 2016? Yes, of course they are. And I do think like the low end of guys who used to make five and five are now making 12 and 12.

That's the, you know, that's more than a 50% increase. That doesn't happen in any job. don't know like any job that's up there employees a paycheck by 50% over a seven-year period. That just doesn't happen. But like I said, it's still like not like anything has dramatic. Like the U.S. you can say we're paying priders more. You are paying priders more. That's absolutely true.

You're not lying about that. But are you paying them relative to the money you're making? No. But as you said, why would they? They're not being forced to. Like, you know what I mean? Like that's in the NFL and MLB and basketball, they went and got to use. union.

They have a collective bargaining agreement. Every four or five years they get together. And they say, here's these deal points. We're going to hash this out. You're going to pay us this amount of money. You're going to do this. And, you know, Major League Baseball, NFL. They say, okay, we agree to that.

Signed a deal. And the next five years, you're off and running. UFC doesn't do it. So, like, I'm not, I'm not trying, but your point, I guess I'm getting as what you said is absolutely right. Like the fighters have no one but themselves to blame for why they're not. Because the fighters have the chance to do this. And they never do.

It never happened. Sort of. And I mean, there's a lot of sides to that, too. Like, it's not as easy as, you know, people make it out to be, right? If the fighters did unionize and went on strike, like, how long are we going to be sitting out? How long would it take the UFC to be like, fuck you? Okay, y'all sit out. We'll replace every one of you tomorrow.

You know, like, how long would that? It wouldn't be, you'd have to get every fighter on. It's an extremely big, big thing. which for me the interesting part here is this lawsuit no fighters opted out right so we all are happy to take the money which is kind of interesting right there's not as far as I know not a single fighter that is like oh no I'm cool I made enough money I don't I'm not going to sue them you know I'm in the lawsuit just like everybody else

You know, I don't want to see the UFC get fucked. I want the UFC to go on. But I'll take my money if I can get it. Fuck yeah. Let's go. But the more interesting part is the injunctive relief part, which from what I understand, the judge, you know, stop the first settlement, partially because of money. But I think some contractual change. And that's where the UFC really has the power is in their contracts, right? like Connor can't go start his own promotion right now, right?

That's why he doesn't make more money. That's why Floyd makes so much money. He does his own promotion. You know, he gets the ticket sales. He gets the drink sales, the merch, of course, the purse, you know, the pay-per-view. Like, he was the highest paid athlete in the world. I know at least for a year that I've seen, you know, one of the years I think when he fought Mani Pachia, you know, he made over $100 million.

and that's basically impossible when you're working with another promoter who's going to take even if it's 50% right like it's practically impossible to get to that level so to me the truly interesting thing of the whole this whole conversation is going to be whether contractual changes are made after this lawsuit yeah and i think that's i talked to randy Katorre last week and he had said that was his biggest issue with the settlement before it got denied was like there was no injunctive relief in there like none at all. That was not

part of it. It was a $335 million settlement and some of the contractual changes they had made a few years ago like expiring deals and you know matching offers things like there were a few details in there but the UFC already had those clauses into the contract all they said in the lawsuit settlement was they would extend it out another five

years and and that's fine but that was his He's like, there's not, like, he's like, he's like, it kind of confounded him. He's like, the money's great. And I understand, like, that's going to be the easy fix for a lot of fighters. Like, get me some money in my pocket. Like, you're going to get an extra $100,000. Yeah, of course you're going to be happy.

But then the future, he's like, where I didn't understand it was is like there's no contractual changes. And he's like, to me, that was the whole point of the antitrust lawsuit was to get the contractual law. And for my understanding, like, the judge who shut it down for one half was money. and the other half was there were two particular clauses in the contract when it came to the contract issues that he just didn't really agree with and he's like, I can't do this, so we're going to go back to the table

and work on this some more. And I don't think it'll ever see the inside of a courtroom. I don't think this will ever go to trial. They're going to come to a new settlement. I don't know it's going to be for $500 million and one contractual change. I don't know. But, yeah, I don't know. And again, as you said, they're not going to change how they do business unless they're

forced to do. Like that's, but that's business. And like I said, I'm being honest, like that's not the UFC. That's every business. Like, no business is going to change the way they do. If they're making money and they're profitable and they're doing what they're doing, like, there's a reason why they do that. Like, there's a reason why McDonald's is an incredibly profitable corporation. They make huge amounts of money every year. But they're not just rushing out to pay the guy taking your order at the drive-thru and pay him triple what he's making right now. Could they afford to do that. Fuck yeah, they could afford to do that. Right. But they're not. And you have to add in the part two, you know, of course, no corporation

is going to do that, but especially no corporation with a Dana White who came in and lost money at the beginning, you know, grinded through a lot of hard work. You got to give credit where credits do. Like Dana put in the time, put in the hours, took the risk. Of course, it was of his money he was risking i know but it was still a huge risk on his part still a lot of work you know took a lot of heat dealt with things his way the whole time you have to give credit where credits do dana did a great job getting the sport to where it's at and probably i would bet that you know he's not going to say it's publicly i don't think but i would bet that in his mind he's like look i fucking earned this shit you know yeah you fighters went out and you know you guys fought

you guys were the show and everything that's great but but I was the one putting the shit on the fucking line here. Yeah. And so I fucking earned it. It's weird that you say, like, earlier you're talking about, like, how people are so, like, tribal for sports. Like, I'm a big Bengals fan. And you're like, ultimately, like, the players don't care and, you know, the organization is just going to replace you. I think people get lost sometimes.

We talk about MMA as a sport. It is a sport or however you want to define it. But the UFC is basically like the New York Yankees or the Chicago Bears. They're not the NFL. Like, there's not 32. owners who were there as like collectively like hey I'm the owner of the bears I'm the owner of the bingles I'm the owner of the cowboys we're going to come together and this is what we're going to agree with all 600 700 800 players whatever's in the NFL the UFC is essentially

the Yankees or the cowboys they are one organization and as you said it's just it's really no different the UFC oh you don't want to take we're paying you well go fight the pFL see how that works out for you go fighting BKFC so that works out for you we'll bring in this other guy and replace you and we're probably not going to skip a beat. You could argue, like, the UFC's having their most successful financial years over these last two or three years since the pandemic. And that's with Connor McGregor fighting like one time. John Jones has fought one time in like four years.

The guys who are the stars, the big draws, they're barely fighting and the UFC is more successful than ever. So I think that speaks to what we're talking about here. Like when you say, like, they'll just replace the star quarterback. The UFC's the same way. They're like, hey, you don't want to take this offer? okay, we'll just move on and get the next guy. Yeah, I would say the UFC's, you know, say like the Cowboys,

if the Cowboys had won the past like 20 Super Bowls in a row, right? And there's not even like a close second place team. Like literally every college star only wants to go to the Cowboys. They have complete power over every Super Bowl. They're going to win for the next 20 Super Bowls. and they're like, all right, like, you want to go play for the fucking bears? Go for it. Like, there's another kid coming out of college tomorrow, buddy.

Yeah, well, it's like when the whole Francis and Gano thing happened. And I'm happy Francis is in PFL, and I'm happy he's getting paid, and I'm sure he's getting paid a lot of money. And I'm sure that's an investment that PFL was willing to make in him. But, you know, Francis and Gondon is going to fight Hina Ferey coming up in October, and Chris Seiber is going to fight Larissa Pacheco, and it's going to go on pay-per-view, and I assume it's going to be like a $50 pay-per-view. for PFL that show will do successfully.

But what is their version of success? Is it 50,000 buys? Like 50,000 buys. Okay, well, yeah, that sounds great to them. But the UFC does that on their worst pay-per-view ever, they're still doing 100, 200,000 buys. Right. So, like, that's the difference.

Like, I'm happy for Francis. I'm legitimately happy Francis is getting a big bag of money, and I'm 100% behind him on that. But the UFC doesn't care. They've already moved on from Francis. They don't get a fuck about Francis now. They've moved on. Like they're like we got Cyril Gond, we got Tom Aspinall, we got John Jones, we got all these other guys.

They don't care. They're not losing anything. I mean, that's a great point because it would be like if, you know, going back to a football analogy, if also, you know, the Cowboys have won the last 20 Super Bowls. And every Sunday, all you see is Cowboy games. Yeah. You're like, bro, I want to watch the Bengals. And like, you know, my guy's on the Bengals. And everybody was like, well, I don't really know where you watch it.

Like the Cowboys game is on, though. Yeah. And that's kind of where it's at. I think that's what gets missed when you talk about this a lot of times. Everyone wants to put the UFC next to Major League Baseball NBA. It's nowhere near the same model. The UFC is the Cowboys. They are one unit.

They are one team because there's not, it was all equal. And there were, you know, if there was the bears and the giants and all these other teams out there that were like, hey, like we want a piece of the pie too. Because you look at the NFL revenue, like the Cowboys definitely earn more money than a lot of the other teams. but because the revenue sharing thing, they're like, hold on now. You're not going to just be the fucking evil empire and make all the money and spend all the money and everyone else gets a pizza pie. That's not how it works in the UFC, as you said, it's like not only the Cowboys, they're the Cowboys who won 20 Super Bowls in the row, and they're also the Cowboys are the only team you see on Sunday when you turn on the TV to watch football. And as you said, there's a prestige there.

There's fighters who will take less money to just go to the UFC because they want to be in the UFC. Now, to that point, as you said earlier, if you're building your brand, that can exponentially make you more money down the road. You know what I would imagine, like, I know what Kayla Harrison was making relatively in PFL. She was getting like a million dollars to fight. Now, to you and me, I was like, damn, that's great money, right? And I would say the UFC's probably, I don't know what they're paying her.

I have no idea. I'm guessing. Let's just say they're paying her $250,000, $300,000 dollars. Now, it sounds like a lot less money, right? But then you imagine the back end of that where she's got like appearances and sponsorships and endorsements. I think that's a great example because realistically, no. I mean, we knew who Kayla Harrison was, but

she wasn't half the name she was, even before her, what, two UFC fights that she's had? One, one UFC fight. Only one UFC fight. I thought she had two for some reason. But she has one book, though, right? Maybe that's why I was thinking too. Yeah, in October. I mean, even just that single fight, like, her name just magnified tenfold from that fight.

What do you think about Michael Chandler? I remember talking to Michael Chandler. Like, I've known Michael Chandler for years. Michael Chandler was a great fighter. He's the face of him. Bellator, one of the most successful, like, DeFace of Bellator. And I remember when he did his first fight against Dan Hooker, and he came back and he's like, I've never had anything like that in my life, the amount of attention and interview

requests, and people wanted to, like, and that was his first, like, no, and it's not like he was not a quantity. Like, people knew who Michael Chandler was. He was a good fighter. But it's just different when you're in the UFC. They talk about the NFL, and that's, like, when they say you go play for, like, the Yankees and baseball or, like, the Jets. Like you go to a big major market like New York.

It's just a different feeling with the amount of media and attention and the spotlight you live under. Michael Chandler was a pretty successful Bellator fighter, but he never experienced anything like what he experienced when he got to the UFC. Again, and these are things you're like... And realistically, like when Michael Chandler was in Bellator, I didn't know what his next fight was or winnings. You know, I watched like the Eddie Alvarez fights, one or two of them. I think like after they happened, you know, not live.

Like, oh, I heard that was a great fight. You know, I got to go watch it. But I don't think I've missed the Michael Chandler fight since he's been in the UFC. Yeah, and that's the reality. Like, you know, you just, and then you talk about like when Michael Chandler, like Michael Chandler sitting at these last two years and you're like, he's had other business opportunities. He started his own.

Like he's working with the tequila brand. He's doing all these different sponsorship. I saw him in a commercial yesterday for some popcorn brand. I saw, hey, is Michael Chandler. These are all things predicated on him being in the UFC. He didn't get that. He wasn't getting $100,000. to promote popcorn when he was in Bellator.

So, like, there's a balancing act here. You can say, like, oh, yeah, he's underpaid. And I would say, yes, you're right. He is underpaid. But he's also getting these other opportunities that he's getting because he's in the UFC, he's getting these business offers, he's getting these sponsorships offers, these endorsement offers because they want to work with UFC fighter Michael Chandler. They didn't get a fuck about Bellator fighter Michael Chandler because Belator wasn't going

to promote their brand. And that just adds even more to what I was kind of saying when you talk about, you know, fighters unionizing. It's like, you know, are they going to go on strike and miss out not only on the UFC fights, but also on the magnification that comes with being in the UFC? You know, are they going to risk all of that when, you know, there's no guarantee that a union's even going to work, you know? And do we know that all five, six, seven hundred, whatever fighters are going to join in

on this? Because if you don't have a large majority of at least the stars, you know, you're fucked. I'll turn this back on you before we get out of here. I'll turn this back on you because you spent 15, 16 years in the UFC and, you know, obviously you were a big, you know, you were a name, your headline cards, you were very popular, well-like guy in the UFC. If you had your same career, fights the same, you still brutally knock people out, you were the same guy,

but you did it all in Bellator or PFL. Would you be where you're at today? Like maybe they paid you the same amount. out up front, like the same $100,000 payday, $200, whatever the money you made in like your purse. Would you be Matt Brown, the guy who owns a gym, he's doing podcasts? I'm not, I'm not saying you shouldn't go that route. I'm not saying there's not a place for that. I'm just saying like, I think you'd agree that a lot of where you're at now in 2024

is because you did spend 16 years in the UFC and not as BKFC fighter Matt Brown or Bellator fighter Matt Brown. No, that's exactly right. And that's kind of what I was alluding to earlier when I was saying. It's the mid-range guys who benefit the most out of this. Again, the top-range guys, no matter what promotion to organizations, you know, when you're talking about like a John Jones, like as long as he's fighting the best in the world, you know,

what is considered the best in the world, no one's really going to care about the promotion. We just know that the UFC has the best right now, right? but it's the mid to lower range guys who get really the most benefit out of it. Yeah, but like I said, I think that's the reality

what you have to look at. Like I said, and I think you'd agree. Like, you're not in the position you're in today if your career wasn't in the UFC. It'd be a totally different story. There are guys who have been,

like I said, guys who have had good careers, you know, like you look at, like it was it Will Brooks, a guy who has two wins over Chandler, came to UFC, didn't find success here,

just didn't work out for him. No one even, knows who that guy is. I'm not knocking the guy. I'm not saying he's not a good fighter. I'm saying like, no one remembers that. No one remembers he has two wins over Michael Chandler. Because no one's hardly anyone's seen those fights. They were in Bellator. But everyone remembers the

Justin Gachy fight. Everyone remembers the Dustin Porre fight. Everyone knows the car. That's the reality. I'm just, I'm just being like, that's just honest. Like, if you did what you did to Diego Sanchez, that iconic elbow knockout, which gets replayed in highlights to this day and we'll play probably at your funeral,

there'll be a video of that over the casket like the play of you knocking out Diego Sanchez. Would you would that still get the same level of popularity and attention if it happened in PFL? No. That's a fact. You know? Yeah, that's a fact.

They magnify your brand better than anyone else can do it, period. Yeah, so all right. Didn't know we were going to get on that topic for the whole podcast, but I like the conversation a little different. There's not not a lot going on right now. We got no events this weekend. And then we go next week. with Gilbert Burns and Sean Brady.

That's a fun fight. Is that main event? Yeah, main event, five rounds. Yeah, that's a good one. And then the weekend after that, of course, is Noche UFC, Sean Brady and Marab and Valentina and Alexa Grosso. So pick up to Steve a little bit in a couple weeks, but we got a weekend off with no fights,

so it'll be kind of a nice weekend. What do you, you got plans for the weekend? Well, I don't know if I've actually told you, but I guess I'll announce to everyone. Like I'll actually, September 4th, I'm going to be in Thailand. for about three weeks. So I guess I'll have to be skipping the podcast.

Maybe, I don't know, with the time difference, probably like 12 hours and you're kind of a nighttime person, so maybe we could do it at night, potentially, depending on, you know, how the shenanigans go over there and how much energy you have. But, yeah, so I'll be over there, be doing the fight circus, which would be pretty fun. You're doing the, you're doing the, what is it,

the two-armed boxing? What is it you're doing? It's one shirt boxing. The two people, yeah, with wearing one shirt and boxing with each person with a single hand. I'll probably be doing that. They talked about a bunch of different things, maybe like ice rink boxing, you know, having a beer in one hand, boxing with the other hand and, you know, having to drink in between exchanges. And they've talked about a lot of different silly things. Like another one was, what was that?

blindfolded pillow fighting with only fans models there's so many different things so either way it's guaranteed to be fun I think that's the point of the whole thing it's going to be fun it's going to be a great show it's my first time in Thailand which is pretty amazing so I want to go over and try to find some of those legendary clinchers and see if I can puck them up I love it so when do you when do you leave for Thailand when are you

when are you heading out there September 4th, fourth and I have all middle seats for the 27 hour flight. That'll be a good time. So that's going to be rough. Yeah. I'm not looking forward to the middle seats. I'm up to get a good solid neck pillow, I guess. And that's about the best I can do.

I don't know. I don't have any other answers for it. That's rough. Man, I might try to upgrade it. I don't know. Let's see. Yeah. So you're spending three weeks in Thailand and then doing fight circus.

That'll be the time over there. Yeah. Are you teaching or anything? We're going to be doing a whole tour of Thailand. So I'm going to Bangkok first. We do the fight circus stuff. Going over to Pataya doing some seminars over there. Okay.

I think I'm going to do a seminar too over there. And I don't know how much, you know, exploring. I don't really know. They sent me it. I didn't even look at it. I said, just bring me over. Let's have some fun. I don't care.

Good stuff, man. One shirt boxing. Ice ring boxing. There's a lot of possibilities there. There's a lot of possibilities. Show up there and have, if you do one shirt boxing, who's your partner?

Do you know? They mentioned Mark Munoz, which I don't, I haven't had that confirmed, but. One shirt box for you and Mark Munoz. What a world we live in. Yeah,

I feel bad for the other two. Dude, that's hilarious. I watched a video of that a while back, and I was like, what is this? Like, this is the most of the, that was like I got pitched on. I actually did an interview with the guy who does it, the car jitsu or the guy they do jihitsu in a car.

And I was like, this is so hilariously, like, wild. Like, I kind of like it because it's just so dumb and fun. Like, yeah, it's just like ridiculous. So why on? I like the telephone booth fights. I love this. Dude, it's wild, man. Hey, whatever, whatever works, man.

Like I said, this is the kind of fun thing you can do. And I'd imagine there's a lot less risk in one shirt boxing than there would. other things. I think only in Thailand you can do this kind of shit, right? I don't think the condition's going to prove that in America. I like the idea of the only fans pillow fight. I think that'd be a

really winner there for you, Matt, the blindfold of pillow fight with only fans models? I don't think I'm going to argue against that one. Please take video and send it back to us, please. Let's do that. I'm sure that it'd be all over social media. Yeah, I know that

they asked me to do the Freebird solo too. I don't know what they were talking about. They were like, oh, you play guitar? Like, can you play Freebird?

I'm like, that's kind of a fucking hard solo, bro, and it's really long. That's hilarious. They were like Matt Brown playing Free Bird on Fight Circus and then fucking fighting

with his guitar or some shit. So, oh, we'll see. I don't know. I don't know what we're going to do, but either way, I guarantee we're going to have fun. Good times,

good times. Well, well, yeah, we'll figure out with the podcast. We'll probably miss you for a few weeks, but you'll be back. I assume you'll return. Who knows what's going to have in Thailand?

You may, what happens in Thailand stays in Thailand? You never know. We'll have to wait and see on that one. Obviously, Matt, where can people go to support you as they always do? And I'm The Immortal on Instagram and Twitter. The Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. You can check out my sponsors at try underscore create and at Redwood Outdoor CO for the Best Sanas. And that's my shit, bro.

Let's go. I love it. All right, folks, we appreciate everyone tuning in. Make sure you check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify. And, of course, over on the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I'm Damon. Martin. We'll see you next week for another edition of The Fighter versus the Rider.

Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then.