MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Unleashes on Claims Bo Nickal Got ‘Fraud Checked' and Belal Muhammad’s Toughest Fight

Episode Date: May 6, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to Reinier de Ridder knocking out Bo Nickal and the criticism Nickal has received after the loss. Plus, we’ll look ahead at UFC 315 and discuss the toughest possible matchup for Belal Muhammad at welterweight and why women’s MMA has seemingly been struggling lately with no new stars emerging plus more.   Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Wi-Fi available to AeroPlan members on equip flights sponsored by Bell Conditions Apply see Air Canada.com You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the Fighter versus the writer. I'm Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, we are living in a world.

There are two immortal martial arts centers open now. And we are in a UFC 315 world and a post. Bo Nicol has suffered his first lost world. So got a lot to talk about today. A lot to talk about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So second gym open today. Yeah. So that's a big one. And Bo Nickel. Yeah. There's a lot of different things going on. So I'll let you start. Well, I'll make real quick with the gym.

Proud achievement, right? Two gyms? I mean, that's kind of the dream, right? Like, that shows the success of the first gym. Now you've got the second gym. That is not the dream. That is a step in the dream. The dream is to have many, many gyms.

So, yeah, so we're on the way to that. Yeah, it's cool. You know, this is the second one to sort. So we know how to run a gym now. This is kind of the way I explain to people. Like, we know how to run a gym. now. It's profitable. We do very well. A decent amount of people making a living off of it. Now, but I opened it completely wrong, right? Like it took years to figure everything out and get to where I'm at.

Now, the second one is sort of a beta test for how we can learn how to open a gym properly. So we can replicate the model over and over again, but get to profitability very quickly. so far, you know, we're already, we're not going to be losing money the first month, so that's a good start. We'll see how it goes going forward. But if we can open and be profitable straight off the rip and we already know how to run it, then the sky's the limit. It's funny. I don't know if you saw this over the weekend. I saw an article on Tiger Shulman, who has obviously kind of like a martial arts empire on the East Coast.

And he was talking about how he built that up from like kind of nothing. like Tiger Schulman's is just recognized. Like you just know that name on gyms. And I've said for years that Columbus, where we live, is an area where we just needed more high-level gyms. And like your gym taking off, I was like, this is exactly what this is. Because Columbus is huge.

I don't think people realize, like, how big Columbus is. And now second gym, and I'm assuming down the road, third, fourth, fifth, whatever gym is going to be, this is the beginning of the Matt Brown Empire. That's exactly right. Yeah, people don't realize. Columbus is actually the 15th largest city in the country, which is I didn't realize that until a few years ago.

I actually looked it up on this, you know, Wikipedia and it was pretty soft. But there is a gap in the market here, and that's the gap I'm trying to fill. I love it. There is a lot of good gyms here. There is actually higher level than people give credit for here. There's very high level guys here. They're not necessarily like big name guys. You know, I think that's where we get a lot of the fact.

But no one is doing it at a, no one here. I've never seen anyone here, at least, attempt to scale what they're doing. Right? Like, there's a lot of good gyms here, and they're cool with just having a good gym. You know, and I'm like, well, why don't we have like 20 good gyms? Like, why don't I have 20 good gyms, you know? So, you know, and a lot of that motivation, just if we, you know, get on a little deeper level, you know, is because I've seen the martial arts change so many people's lives in such.

a great way, man. I just want to put a gym everywhere. I'm like, bro, like, we could get rid of, like, church and therapy and recovery centers and rehab and just put martial arts gyms everywhere, put in the fucking schools, put it on every street corner. And I promise you the world to be a better place. Yeah, well, this is part two of a multi-part takeover for the Immortal Martial Arts Center, right?

Exactly, yeah, yeah. So, again, this is the test. I call it test, but, you know, we're actually doing it. We're not really testing. We're figuring out. But, you know, an experiment in how quickly we can get to a sustainable level of profitability where people are, you know, not only covering the salaries, but also making good money for everyone. So once we get that part of it down, again, we got the running operations down, the model of them.

Once we get this part down, this guy's the fucking limit, man. And then we're only going to be limited by staff, which is a huge limitation in the world of martial arts. If anyone running a gym could verify this, that is a huge limitation. That is going to be the only constraint, though. Yeah. Well, like you said, you didn't open the first one the right way. Now you know how to do it. You're doing it right the second one time.

And like I said, sky's the limit. There's going to be a lot of growth in the next few of three years, I'm sure. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's the whole thing, right? just keep it growing, not getting sad, not being comfortable with where you're at. And so, yeah, it's just one thing is going to lead to another. It's going to domino and we're going to take over Columbus.

100%. As I mentioned, of course, UFC 315 this weekend. We're going to get to that in a second. But this past weekend in Des Moines, Iowa, of course, Corey Sanagan, picking up a huge win over Devincent Figuero. Very impressive win. Looks like he's going to be probably the number one contender now, Bantuwait, and I think rightly so.

There's not really another guy out there. and we've got Morab fighting O'Malley again in June, so it kind of makes sense for Corey to be the guy. But let's be honest, man, the co-main event was the one that everyone was buzzing about and talking about, Rainier to Ritter going out and knocking out Bo Neckle in the second round. And funny enough, half hour ago, I was on the line with Reineer talking to him about the fight and the knockout. He had nothing but good things to say about Bo Nickel.

I don't know how much you saw the fight matter or the knockout you saw the finish, but it wasn't a lucky shot. It wasn't, he caught him. He was beating him in the first round. and then he knocked him out in the second. I mean, this was as picture perfect to win as probably right near Derritter could have hoped for outside of maybe submitting Bo Nicol on the ground.

Yeah, absolutely. Derriter looked great, man. I mean, he did all the right things. And, you know, the first thing I got to say, though, like, because, you know, I was reading, like, some of the Twitter comments. I mean, it was all over social media everywhere, right? Everybody was talking about it in the,

at least in the MA world, maybe not, like, trending across the world, but, like, everybody in the Mayworld was talking about it and you know i kept seeing i it really frustrated me and almost upset me hearing all these people could say the fraud check right i'm sure you're seeing this i'm sure yeah and i'm like bro get the fuck out of here me and you we talk about this all the time maybe more people need to be listening to our podcast maybe that's a problem right give credit where credit is do day ridder look fucking awesome he looked great he'd look like a two-weight world champion coming from one should

look like. He looked like a guy that has a bright future and has a lot of big things to do. And Bo Nicol looked like a guy fighting a two-weight world champion that he just was not ready for yet. Right. And that's one of the downsides of a guy like Bo Nickel coming in straight to the UFC with very little experience and being tossed to the wolves, right? And I mean, he's had some somewhat favorable matchups before. Not totally favorable. But, you know, He's had matchups that were very winnable, right? De Ritter, you know, we finally found out where Bo Nickel needs to improve. It's not a fraud at all.

The motherfucker is going to be the top five guy in the future. I can almost guarantee, if he wants to be. You know, maybe he took a beating and was like, I don't know about this shit, but I highly doubt that's the case. I think he's in here for a long game. And if he keeps his nose to the grindsend, he'll be a top five guy. I wish I could show you the video What we're on the podcast of Rineers, the reaction when I said that to him.

I said people are trying to say that Bo Nicol got fraud checked And he rolled his eyes and he's just like, Bo Nichols is going to be fine. Like he just got beat by a better guy on that night. There's nothing wrong with that. It's going to happen. And he admitted, he's like, it happened to me. He's like, I had to go through this.

Like, I have lost. When I got beat, I was, he's like, there is a fine line between being super confident, being arrogant. And he's like, I've crossed that line where I got a little arrogant, got a little full of myself, and then it got knocked right out of me. He's like, that's the sport. He's like, no, and what I loved, and I'm not to try to ruin my interview with Rainier to Ritter,

but just started out there. He said, I hope I want to work with Bo Nicol. I want to bring him in, and we can help each other now. Like, I want him to help me in my wrestling. I'll help him with the submissions and striking. Like, he's like, I want to work together. I love that attitude. And listen, the reality is Bo Neckle had so much expectation on his shoulder.

I'm guilty of this, Matt, because I'm a big wrestling guy. When Bo Nickel came in, one fight. the USC, I made the jackass statement saying he could beat Israel out of Sonia right now just with his wrestling because I was so high on this guy as a wrestler. Now, the reality is, wrestling's not the only art you need to know. And you saw that on Saturday. He took Rainier down. He went for that guillotine. And when he got reversed, he got stuck. Ranier is a really, really good grandport. He got stuck underneath him couldn't get up. And then those body shots, man, that just drains a life out of you. And you just saw that when the wrestling wasn't down,

and the cardio starts to slip because you're getting beat to the body. He just had no answers. That's not Bo Nicol is a bad fighter. That is Rineer de Ritter is a better fighter, and he won that night. Now, this is a chance for Bo Nicol to go get better and prove himself in the room and come back a better guy. But this is the sport, man. Like, we can count on one hand the amount of guys who've gone through their entire careers without getting beaten in this kind of way. And it goes down to basically John Jones and Khabib Nibibh Nabok of Medov,

for the only ones I could really think of of never having this happen to them. It happens to everybody. Yeah, and Habib retired early, right? It would have happened to him. It would have kept going. It would have happened. You know, I still think, you know,

it happened John Jones if he kept push it, putting himself out there. Maybe not, though. Who knows, right? That's kind of irrelevant anyway. The point is, like you said, like Raynard to Ritter is a great fucking fighter, bro.

And, look, you know, he's had the experience advantage. He knows how to fight, fight. Bo Nichols learning how to fight. Bo Nichol knows how to wrestle like a motherfucker. If this is a wrestling match, like Bo Nickel tech follows him or pins him within a period, right? Most likely.

But Derritter is well-rounded, and I think that's what showed the most was you've seen the transitions from one thing to another, from one art to the other, and you've seen, you know, a guy that knew how to handle every position. Whereas Bo Nickle, I think it just, if you want to say exposed anything like it exposed that he is still a rookie like he is still a beginner in this sport he still has a ways to go and don't forget the matchups too

he would probably match up better against israel a sonya than he would run here to ridder you know so like that's not like a bad call like matchup wise that's a way better matchup for him that's just that's just the fact like that's the way this game is like there's a lot of There's a lot to be said for, you know, who you're just simply who you're matched up against. You know, there's guys that can beat everybody, but they just can't beat that one guy, you know. And that's just the way the sport goes. But, dude, Bo Nickel, like, stop with the project bullshit. Stop with the, you know, he was exposed or overrated or overhyped, hype train and ended all this bullshit.

Bo Nickel, if he wants to, he will be back and he will be top five. Absolutely. I totally agree. And, you know, this is a lesson learned. I would argue that real quick before we move on that, like, Rainier de Ritter, you know, he didn't beat a top five guy because Bo Nicol, I think, was maybe ranked top 15. I'm not even sure where he was ranked if he was ranked at all.

But I would argue this is a bigger win than beating some of the guys in the top five, like just because of how much hype and attention to Bernickle had around him. He called for Sean Strickland. I think that's a great match. I think that's a good fight. I know it's one that Robert Whitaker wanted, but no offense to Robert Whitaker. I think Ryan and Strickland's a bigger fight right now just because of what he did to Bo Nichols.

So I think he gets, I think he really does get a chance to call a shot right here. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I don't necessarily, I guess it'd be tough to see him getting Sean Strickland off of this way. And you said Bo Neckle wasn't even ranked. If he was ranked, it was in, you know, the lower part of the top 15.

So moving all the way up to Sean Strickland might be a distant call for him. but great's all out for him though i mean that's that'd be a gigantic win if he ends up getting that fight um or you know if he ends up winning that fight i should say too right but um yeah uh bow nickel man he's fucking um that's a great i think in terms of what would you say in terms of the um um the the name value like it was about the biggest win renier could have at this point yeah and i think for beau it's like he kind of goes to the Aaron Pico thing. Remember Aaron Pico? He had to deal with a couple of losses in his career. And I think Aaron Pico is one of the best fighters in the world, but that's just

the nature of the beast man. Like, we are all hyped up on Aaron Pico and he had to get, he literally got beaten his first professional fight and then lost again. Oh, he got frightened in a fraud check. He's learning. He was literally learning on the job in like one of the biggest organizations of the world. Booneickle had two fights or three fights where he got in the UFC. Like, come on. The guy's learning. He's going to get better. He's going to grow. And, you know, his coach Mike Brown addressed that today. So he's going to be fine. I think he's going to be totally okay. And just like, you know, Aaron Pico, like, look where he's at now.

I think I would, you know, he's in the UFC now, but I would still say Aaron Pico is absolutely one of the top 10 feather weights in the world. And it just took some time. Like he's not, he's, you know, he had to learn and grow and get better. And so I think Bo NIC will do the same. Like, like, it's a tough sport and people lose, you know. It's like, who would have thought? And yeah, so, yeah, that really frustrate me when people say that shit.

And I think a lot of people do, like, just for headlines just to get people reading their thing or for people to respond or whatever. But the fact is Bo Nichols' hype is truthful. And it's going to, I believe it's going to come to fruition if he sticks at. I think this might be the best thing to happen to him, to be honest. Like it might have been the best thing because who knows, I mean, I don't know what his training regimen was, but, you know, maybe he wasn't, maybe he fell into the hype train a little bit himself.

Maybe he wasn't pushing himself. Maybe he wasn't putting himself in bad positions as much as he wasn't. he could have and this might be the best thing to happen to him. You hear that a lot. A lot of guys say that. Like the loss is as much as it sucks. Like it's the best thing that ever happened to me. I learned so much from the loss and came back better. And it's a weird thing

in this sport. Like undefeated records are weird too because very rarely do you keep them. It's not like boxing where you have to stand defeated to matter. But it's weird because there's also like this unrealistic expectation that goes along with it. And now it's like he gets that that monkeys off his back, that weights off his shoulders.

He just gets to go out there and be himself and fight. and I'm sure he'll bounce back. He's too damn talented not to bounce back from this. Yeah, and it's so different than boxing, right? There's so many ways to win, and it's such a dynamic sport where, you know, boxing is like, you're doing one thing. You know what I mean? So it's like, you know, it kind of set a bad standard

because that's what everybody compares UFC too is like the boxing world, right? And they kind of set that standard like, oh, once you lose, like you suck or whatever. you know, that's just not the case in MMA, man. It's just a different sport altogether. And if you watch any boxing from this past weekend outside of Inouye, who's a beast, what a fight that was.

But the rest of the boxing, man, it was rough. It was a rough guy. I didn't watch much of it. I mostly lived through highlights or what highlights there were. But between Ryan Garcia losing and Canelo throwing 50 punches in a 12-round fight or whatever it was, like it was a rough weekend for boxing. but we did get the setup finally for Crawford and Canella which is more exciting than the fight itself was last weekend but no that is fucking exciting man I'm really stoked to see that and I think Crawford's going to put it on them I do too I agree I think Crawford's going to put on and this is the first the first TKO event Dana White's going to promote it this is going to be the first big yeah Dana White's going to promote it's going to be the first crossover like TKO boxing with Saudi Arabia so Huge fight.

I agree. I think Bud Crawford's going to put it on Canello. And if Canelo fights anything like he did this last week, and it's going to be a bad night at the office for him. Yeah, well, I don't expect it to be like that because, you know, Crawford will engage with him, I think. But the big problem is, man, Canello is so much bigger, so much more power.

He didn't look so much bigger staying next to him. But I think, like, strength-wise and, like, bone density and muscularly, I think he's a lot bigger. and like I just don't know how Crawford's going to handle those shots, man, if Canello catches him with some good ones, like a good body hook or something. But a skill for skill, like I think Crawford's levels above Canello. Yeah, I said this after, after I had so much writing, not like money, but like just hope and belief on Errol Spitz and watching Crawford just beat the living shit out of him.

I was like, well, I'm a believer now. I'm a Bud Crawford believer now. Yeah, well, yeah, that was a different. Yeah, that was completely different, though, you know, and Arrow that I don't think showed up either. But, dude, like Crawford just, man, he's coming up. How far is he got? Like 20 pounds, something like that?

It's got to be close to 2 pounds. Yeah, 15 or 20 pounds. It's pretty big, so. Yeah, which in boxing is really big, you know. It's big in May, too, but in boxing, that's a huge amount. Yeah, I mean, that is a fight I'm excited for. Like I said, I'm ready for it. You know what I mean?

So we'll see that in September. I think it actually, I think it takes place the night before the Noce UFC card in Mexico. They're doing it down in Guadalajara, and they're doing that in, I think, Vegas at Allegiance Stadium. So it's going to be a good weekend for combat sports when that happens in September. Matt, of course, this weekend, UFC 315 goes down. We got two big title fights. Bilal Muhammad defending his belt against Jack Delamadalina and Valentina Shipchinko defending her title against Menon Fior. Let's start with the Welterweight title fight.

You and I have been very high in the Bilal Muhammad train for a long time. We were believers in him before a lot of people were. Jack Delamadalana, incredible striker, nasty boxer, huge power. I know on paper this kind of breaks down to like striker versus grabber, but I think it goes so far, so far beyond that. But I like Jack. I think Jack's a live dog here. But at the same time, man, I'm not jumping off to Bilal Muhammad train.

I just think that what he's done, as long as he's not underestimating Jack, which I don't think he will. I have a hard time seeing someone really putting it on Belah Muhammad right now. Has Jack done a five-round fight yet? Not in the UFC. I don't know if he hasn't his career either, but I know he hasn't in the UFC. You know, Balala is a difficult, very difficult guy to have your first five-round fight against, right? That's a very difficult opponent.

You know, he puts on such an immense amount of pressure. you're constantly in such high cardio is such a good gas tank. That's definitely going to be a, I think that's like the biggest constraint for Jack. You know, I think that's, that's going to be the toughest hill for him to climb. Like, how is he going to deal with that? But Jack does have good boxing, but is he going to be able to stop Belal from pushing him against the fence? You know, I don't anticipate being that exciting of a fight. You know, Belaw, I don't, I don't anticipate him doing a lot of boxing with Jack.

you know, there's probably be a lot of pushing against the cage. And, you know, if he gets a takedown, then it happens. And, you know, but, you know, this is, this is like the matchups that Bala really seems to thrive in. Yeah. Bala, I know what Bala has said. I talked to Bala and Bala said, you know, he wants to show all his Canelo hands, although after this last week and he may want to switch to somebody else because that's probably not the one he wants the reference. But, you know, I actually think Belao has really, I actually think Bala has good boxing.

Like, I think he got Leon on the feet a little bit when they fall. before taking him down. And he obviously knocked out Sean Brady. I think there's some gamesmanship in there as well, though. You know, saying I'm going to box Jack Del and Madeline. I'm going to strike him. And maybe, listen, maybe in that world he can, you know, outstrike him on the field a little bit. But, again, I like the gamesmanship.

I get it. Like, you want to go out there and tell the world you're going to box this guy. And then, of course, you're going to go for the takedown. There's nothing wrong with that. But I think Bilal, I think one thing Bilal doesn't get enough credit for us, how smart he is as a fighter. Like, he really knows how to attack a guy at his string. and weaknesses, and you know this from doing the show as long as we've done it, Matt.

I always say, it's hard for me to pick against the guy who has more ways to win, and Bilal Muhammad, just however you want to paint it, he has more ways to win this fight. No, I think that's exactly right. And again, the cardio, I mean, it's just such an X factor. And we haven't seen Jack in a five-round fight. You know, if he did it before the UFC,

you know, I don't know what kind of opponents they were. You know, I haven't studied like that, what kind of level they were at or how much of a play. she was getting, but, you know, you know, Belal is going to push you for 25 minutes, and that's a long time. And, you know, you start getting frustrated a couple rounds in. And like you said, Belal does have good hands. Like, he can box with him. I just don't think he can continue to box with him. Like, he'll get caught. Like, Jack is a really good boxer. You know, you just can't rely on that as a part of your game. And Jack has good power, too, which also adds to, you know,

the fight could change at any moment by just one shot. So it's kind of an uphill battle. for Jack, I think, if he tries to box with him. But like you said, he's talking some shit, and he's going to go push him against the cage, and it's probably going to be a boring fight. But I'm not one of

those guys that, like, hates on boring fights. Like, I don't hate on fighters for doing that. Like, the dude is winning. He keeps winning, and he's doing a good job. I mean, you could argue George St. Pierre, I'm not saying this in a negative way. Well, I guess I am using the word boring, but you could argue George

St. Pierre was one of the the quote unquote most boring champions there was but he always won you know what I mean like and I get it like they I saw a comment I'm not trying to dig on the guy I saw a comment from uh Dan hooker I think like a week ago and he was talking about if you're if you're constantly going for takedowns and shooting for singles or legos singles and doubles who wants to see you fight for a title and I'm just like Dan by the way this is now I'm not using them as an example but I'm like if you don't like takedowns go do kickboxing because this is the sport like this is our sport like this is our sport like this is

This is, this is MMA. If you don't like wrestling, you probably should go do something else. And no one, like, it may not be the most, what you would consider the most exciting fight in the world or what, not you personally. I'm saying what fans might consider the most exciting fight in the world. But you got to win. Bala Muhammad, if he goes out there and kickboxes with Jack Delamatta, his chances of winning drop dramatically. But if he goes out there and mixes together, his wrestling, his cardio, his pace, his pressure, his relentless nature, he has a great chance to go out there and defend his title. And guess what?

That's exactly what he should do. Yeah, and I always find interesting people say that because if that were the case, if that's all fans, if fans didn't want to see takedowns and ground game, then why isn't Maita the biggest sport in the world or kickboxing? Why is the UFC so much bigger? Yeah.

You know, obviously, like fans like seeing it. So it's part of the game. And you can't hate on people for doing it. You know, all the, like, it happened to me, right? Like, I got, I had fights where I got taken down, held down, and boring fights and couldn't get anything going. But I'm not hating on it. I'm like, bro, like, you know, I went to my hotel room with half the paycheck you did. So what can I say, right?

Yeah. I know we talked about this a little bit last week, like, who is the most deserving contender after Jack? And I know we talked to, you know, Ian Garry's way in as the backup. You got Shabkat out there. You got Sean Brady out there. Maybe Islam. Probably not if it's Bilal. But, you know, if Jack,

pulls it off, Islam coming up. Not who is the number one contender. That's not the question. I'm curious because stylistically, we look at this fight and say, again, I agree. Bilal Muhammad has more ways to win this fight. And it sounds like we're both picking him to win this fight. But out of all the Welchewa contenders out there, I'm curious your opinion, Matt. Not who deserves it?

Who is the toughest matchup for Bilal Muhammad? Like, Ian Gary seems to think he is. I disagree. I know Shavkat It looked like an absolute monster But he got You know he got handled pretty decently in that fight With Ian Gary

Especially later in the fight And again He could easily go out there And finish Bilal Muhammad early But each passing minute of that fight That fades away from fighting a guy like Bilal Mohammed He'll take you down He'll grind on you

And he'll be relentless for five rounds Out of everybody available Who is actually in your opinion The toughest matchup for Bilalai Who would give him the hardest fight? God, you know You got to think Shopcott out of all those. But, you know, if they hadn't already fought,

because I know I'm going to sound like a dumbass saying this, but, man, Sean Brady, bro, like, like he has all the right tools. Of course, like Bilal caught him the first time. But, you know, I think if Sean Brady actually just adjust and gets better and improves on the things that he got caught with the first time, like, I think he could, you know, he's still like the, he should be the toughest matchup for him.

I'm not sure Belaw is just, kind of his, you know, arch enemy, arch nemesis stylistically, he's not going to be able figure it out. But other than that, yeah, I mean, Shavkat is the clear guy that, you know, that the Bala is not going to be able to just push around like he kind of has other guys. You stole my answer. I was actually going to say Sean Brady because I think, like, yes, Sean Brady got beat and he got knocked out by Bala Muhammad.

And I was talking earlier about the guys who say the loss. is the best thing to happen to him. Sean Brady's example that. He told me that flat out. He's like, losing the Belah was the best thing never happened to me because I was riding a high

and that undefeated record was like a tire around his neck and he's like getting rid of that was just like freed me to just be myself and he's been nothing but dominant since then. And you look at that first fight. You say, well, how did you say that's his toughest match?

He went out there, Balai went out there and dominated and finished him on the feet. But that's not Sean Brady at his best. Sean Brady at his best is grappling, wrestling guys, putting him down on the ground and dominating them like he did Leon Edwards. I agree with you.

Like, don't get me wrong. I think Shafqat's a monster, but I think there is a clear path to beating a Shafqad if you're a Bala Muhammad, meaning you just got to survive the early part of the fight and pushed the pace on him. He faded badly in that Ian Gary fight and then almost got submitted late in the fight. Sean Brady, if he fights his fight and he's got that wrestling, he's got that grappling, he could get now. I'm not saying I wouldn't pick Bala Muhammad to beat him again, but stylistically,

I think Sean Brady actually presents the most potential problems. Yeah, that's what it seems like, right? And, you know, I would still say, though, as Shavkat at his best, like, I'm not sure if, you know, stylistically, like, Ian Garry's a very different matchup than Bala. So I think Chavkot matchup-wise with Balaal might be just as high up there. But, yeah, I mean, you're getting, it's hard for us to say because Bala beat John Brady. So we're kind of sounding almost dumb when we say it. but, I mean, he has the right toolbox for it for sure, right?

His toolbox has all the tools to get it done. He's just got to fix whatever happened the first time. He's got to reflect on that and go back into the shed and, you know, reprogram the whole thing. Yeah, and maybe Shabkat looks at that Ian Gary fight fixes the few things that went wrong and he comes out and he's a different animal. But we can only base it on the evidence we have. And the evidence we have is when he couldn't put Ian Gary away,

he started to fade. And the last guy on planet Earth you want to fade against is Bilal Muhammad, especially in a five-round fight. Because if you get deep in that second round and you're not, you're not the finish isn't coming, your power's kind of drained away and you're starting to run out. I mean, again, we saw what happened with Bo Nicol. He got a couple body shots.

And that second round, he looked exhausted. It wasn't, he wasn't conditioned. He just took body shots and it drained the life out of him. If you're Shabkat Rakhanov and you don't have that energy because he's kind of a balls to the wall kind of guy. Like, he goes out there and puts everything into it. You don't get that finish early, man. You're in that deep third, fourth round.

Blahahman is going to seem like a brick wall laying on top of you. And I guess the question is, like, whose skill is easier to get better, right? Is it, like, Sean Brady able to fix his mistakes he made against the first time against Ball, or is Shavkat able to fix, like, his cardio, right? And that seems like an easy fix to me. Like, get better cardio, pace yourself better in fights, be more efficient, think more about, you know, five-round fights. And it seems like an easier fix to me is why I might lean maybe 50-50 with Shabka or Sean Brady.

But like Sean Brady just, you know, if they fought 10 times, like I would probably pick him to win five of them. You know what I mean? So, you know, I think he's got the toolbox for sure. But Shopka, again, I think that should be not an easy fix, but like that's a simple fix. like get better cardio and pace yourself better in fights. Yeah, and you hope it would be that easy, but you just never know. And again, like, you have to go into the fight and actually do it.

And I think even like the mental side of it, because Below knocked out Sean Brady would he even be as excited, you know, and that can play a factor in a rematch. If you're just going to like, I already knocked this guy out, maybe it gives you a little bit of false confidence and then things go wrong for you. I mean, we saw it. I know this is going back some ways, but we saw it with Junior DeSantis and Kane Velasquez.

as Junior went out there, knocked out Cain in a minute flat, and then the two rematches were not anywhere close to that. Kane of Alaska just got a stuffing out of him. So you just never know. And it's funny. I thought I was going to pull rabbit out of the hat saying Sean Brady, but you beat me to it. So great minds right there.

I'm not saying Shafat wouldn't be tough. I just think that I actually have a couple more questions about Shabat now that I didn't have before. And Sean Brady has reacted well. He lost and he came back and he got a lot better. And he's been even more dominant. and he's actually been going into five-run fights doing it. So I think I've kind of answered my question about Brady,

but, you know, Bilal's still a different animal. Maybe you can do it to Leon Edwards. Maybe you can't do it to Bilal Mohammed. So we'll see. But, again, good time to be in the Bilal-Mohama'amab business. You've got plenty of contenders coming up. Yeah, I was about to say, Blal is in a great position right now.

And stylistically, I mean, he matches up well with everybody. He's just got the style that just matches up well with any fighter, period. right he's a tough guy to deal with between cardio and you know not you know trying to be too exciting you know he doesn't put any you know i'm not hating on below like i actually really like below but like he's not out there putting energy or thought into like i need to make an exciting fight he's doing like he's saying what is my strategy to win and sticks to that strategy and that makes for a tough guy to fight period and let's be honest you know there are guys who will go out there thinking i need to put an exciting fight and good for you, but that can backfire in a hurry when you just, when your goal is to go out there

put on an exciting fight because you're, you're throwing down in the middle of the cage and you're basically playing that Justin Gachie Max Holloway game where it's like the first one who lands is the winner and that's a dangerous game to play. So I kind of appreciate a technician like Below's like, I don't care if I'm exciting. I want to win. That's what matters most to him. Yeah, I appreciate both. But the, you know, ultimately, I've said this in the, times like in the end when everything's said and done motherfuckers care about whether you want or lost they don't actually care about how exciting it was that's a present moment thing everybody's excited drinking their mud lights and shit and getting excited you put on a great fight and people remember

that to some extent but you know Litter Garcia put on some of the most exciting fights ever and people remember GSP way more than him 100% I agree um towards the night before the gathering and all through the house. The host wrapped a cozy cashmere throw from Home Sense for their spouse. Kids toys for $6.99 under the tree. And Crystal Glasses for just $14.99 for their brother Lee. A baking dish made in Portugal for Tom and Sue. And a nice $5.99 candle. Perfectly priced just for you. Happy holidays to all. And to all a good price.

Home Sense. Endless presents perfectly priced. Matt, before we get out of here, I'm going to ask you to step on a gigantic landmine. And people are going to be like, oh, my God, you're just setting this up for some controversial takes. But I promise you I'm not because I want to have a conversation about this before we get out of here. The co-made event of this fight card is Valentina Shepchenko against Mino Fiore, which is a really fun fight. I think it's well documented. I'm a big, big fan of Valentina Shepchenko.

She's one of my all-time favorites. One of the nicest people in a sport and absolute monster in her own regard of everything she's done in her career. Never really talked. I've asked Minot questions at a press conference before, but she speaks French, so I can't say I really had a lot of connection with her, but she's a fierce fighter. But here's the question. This is the take I want to get your opinion on Matt,

because you remember a few years ago, when Ronda Rousey was around, and Rosamu Yunus kind of exploded on the scene, and Yonanjane Jacek was around, and Amanda Nunes kind of first came up, Misha Tate, women's MMA was as big as it could get. Like, you could headline cards,

with women's fights and no one would bat an eye at it. Rhonda, of course, was on her own platform, but even without that, Yowana was a star, and Rose was a star, blah, blah, blah. Lately it feels like there's a real stagnation in a women's MMA. Giuliana Pena, Kayla, Kayla Harrison is a great fight, but it's still a co-main event. Valentina and Minot, you could not headline a pay-per-view with this car,

with this fight, I don't think, and expect people to plunk down $80 to watch it. Zhang Wei Lee is a massive star in her whole, country of China. Like, that is insane. But, like, in the bigger global scale, it feels like she kind of slips under the radar. I don't know that there's an answer to this question. I'm not just trying to stir up trouble, but what happened to women's MMA? Like, it used to be, like, you could, like, it was on par. Like, it was right there. Like, when, when, I remember when John Jones fell out of the fight with Daniel Cormey at UFC 200, they briefly announced

that Brock Lesnar was going to headline. And everyone lost their minds. Like, dude, Misha Tate's defending her title against Amanda. Inez. That's the Duffalo. That's the It's a title fight, and rightly so that ended up being the main event. I don't, like, it's almost like women's in a maze kind of slipping under the radar. Have you noticed that? Like, it just doesn't feel like there's that same buzz that we once had. Yeah, I think, you know, I guess like a lot of people watch the sport for the drama and for, you know, maybe it's a good looking girl or whatever kind of reason outside of the actual fighting, right?

And I think that draws a lot of people into the sport. But then once you kind of get into the sport, you start figuring out like who's good, who's not good. You kind of start having some more respect for the skill and different things like that. And then, you know, I don't know really how to say it politically correct, but like women are just not as good of fighters as men, right? And I don't know if that's like a controversial thing to say. I mean, they're in a different division for a reason, right? Like, and they're just not as good. So it's like, I think when people kind of get past, like, all the drama and the excitement and all that,

and then they start getting into it, they're like, okay, well, you know, I want to see the real motherfuckers fight now, right? And that's kind of my guess, but I don't know. I mean, maybe the UFC just doesn't promote it like they used to also. Maybe that's the case. Well, also, I think it also feels like the development just isn't there. Like, you know, like all the, like, we understand star, you can't just create a star. You can't, you know, if that was the case, the UFC would have 10 Connor McGregors bouncing around, you know, like, you know, him on cocaine. Like, it would just be 100%.

But everyone, you know, even in divisions where you say there's not as much star power, there's still people, you know, people want to watch. Like, Patty Pimbled is not a champion, but he's a star, right? Like, that's still a guy you want to watch. And you can go through, you know, almost every division and say that. it just feels like in women's in me right now there aren't any developing stars like valentina's 37 she's towards the tail end of her career we got like the most exciting thing that's happened recently is Amanda nunes announced that she's coming back from retirement at 38 or whatever and she hasn't fun for three years like and and cala harrison i said this when she came in like

kela harrison was kind of the saving grace because she's a star big name very well spoken has a you know pretty dominant fight style and if she can go and be juliana pania maybe that does kind of reinvigorate things a little bit. Plus, she's a two-time gold medalist, like incredibly high-skilled athlete. But it just feels like there's like a stagnation. Like there's just no young new stars. It almost feels like where did they go? Because years ago, you know, when Yowna was on top, you know, Rose was out there and she was climbing the ranks and got up there and obviously beat Yona passing into the torch, so to speak. And then, you know, when Valentino went down to flyway, we're like, oh, she's going to be dominant. She exactly was that. And

Rhonda disappeared because Rhonda, you know, left the sport, but Amanda became the thing. And and then Amanda left and I don't know maybe I'm wrong maybe there's a buzz for this that I'm not feeling but it just kind of feels like there's like it's just almost like a I don't know like an afterthought you know like Valentina and Meno Fior is a good fight but no one's really talking about it. Yeah and again I think it was like a little bit of a honeymoon thing too right when women's in May first came in like everybody was so excited about it and it's like most of the volume of fans are like more unknowledged. people, right? And like your average person, you know, just sitting around on a Friday night or Saturday night watching a made event or something, right? But then as they get more into it, they, you know, again, I'm not trying to like hate on the women's in May. Like, you know, they're great for what they are. But like you can't compare it to like male MMA, right? So like after the honeymoon period kind of faded off. I think everybody's just starting to realize like they're just

not as great a fight. I mean, it's just all there is to it. And again, I don't want to hate on them. I don't want to put them down or anything. I'm not saying that in an offensive way. You know, so, you know, if MMA fighting puts a clip up of this and, you know, it goes on Instagram, like it's going to be hate from top to bottom, which is cool. Like, you know, I think we can all recognize, like, they're just simply not as good. And it's not as exciting to watch the ones that are not the greatest. Right.

The UFC is the Super Bowl of MMA. We want to see the greatest fighters in the world, period. Like that's what excites this, right? Like, Patty became like kind of a social media. He's a great example. He becomes kind of a social media star. But had he went out there and got knocked out by Michael Chandler, like he would have been forgotten.

Maybe you still have a social media type thing, which is a completely different world than fighting, right? But in the fighter world, be like, yeah, see, we told you so, motherfucker, you suck, right? And it would have been pretty much it. We've seen it before, you know, where guys get a lot of hype and then they kind of get shut down. We're like, all right, and they kind of get forgotten, right? I kind of feel like that's what's happened with women's MMA.

And I don't know if that's truth or not. But I kind of feel that way myself because, like, I don't find the fights nearly as exciting. Because, like, I want to watch the baddest human in the world. It can be male or female, right? If it's a... But I want to watch the baddest motherfuckers in the world, do the best techniques in the world and fuck each other up. And you mentioned, like, the reality is winning and going out to, putting on the show is what matters.

And I know I'm not trying to kick the guy. I'm just mentioning this because we talked about it briefly last week. You know, a couple years ago, when Connor said, I'm fighting again, the whole world is buzzing. Who's he fighting? When's he coming back? Now when he even mentions it, people are just like, we don't care. Like, we just, we've gotten over it because it's just like, it's not the same.

It doesn't feel the same anymore. When he says things like, I want to fight or I'm going to fight or give me a fight. Like, the reaction to their years ago was, oh, man, who's he fighting? When's it happening? Now it's like, just do walk away. Like, we're done. We're done with it. And it kind of feels like now, as I said, the word stagnation is the best word I can use.

There's just not that buzz. And it doesn't feel like there are that many young. Like years ago, like I remember this is just top of my head. Four years ago in the Olympics, a woman named Tamira Minza's stock won the gold medal. And there was buzz about, is she going to do MMA or is she going to go to WWE? She ends up going to WWE. Now, I don't know if she's still doing WWE or not. and I don't know that she would ever develop to become a star in MMA.

I have no idea. But it just feels like that pipeline has stopped. Like that pipeline is just not driving new young. Like, as I said, Valentina's 37. Kayla is in her mid-30s. Juliana Payne is in her late 30s. Zhang Weli is in her mid-30s. And when you look at the contenders, like,

I don't really know who Zhang Wally is going to necessarily. I mean, if you're in a Janja-Roba is like in her mid-30s, Menofiores in her 30s. There's no like 23-year-old upstart star. Tatiana Suarez was the one. And then she just got absolutely beat down by Janeway Lisa. I think that's part of the problem. We don't have that young pipeline.

We don't have a Patty Pimblitz. I'm not saying Patty Pimble is young. I think he's like 29 or 30. But we don't have like that young up-and-coming star right now. Who was the girl from Jersey? She was an up-and-comer. Aaron Blanchfield? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

what happened with her. I mean, she lost the fight. She lost the fight, and then she actually's headlining a card next month at the apex with Macy Barber, which is a pretty good fight. I like that fight, but she had lost, so it's like, and then she had that fight with, was it Rose, or I don't know, she had a fight which was just not like Uber exciting. It was just kind of like a five-round fight and nothing, you know.

And I think that, like, we, I know, we saw, I remember when Jane Willie knocked out Yoanna with the spinning back fist, and we did a breakdown of your gym for it. Like, you were very complimentary in Janeway to lead that move. But it just feels like those moments are fewer and far between these days, right? Like, we don't have that. Oh, man, that moment. We don't, I don't feel like we've had that lately. Yeah, well, and ultimately, like, we have to look at it from, like, a normal fans perspective, too, right?

And, you know, it's a little bit of a barbarian caveman mentality, right? When they're watching fights? I mean, we know the normal fans where, you know, won't you just get up and knock them out, you know, these kind of people. and ultimately what the appeal of the women is is like it's a you know it's ideally like a good looking woman that could fuck you up and is fucking up all these other bitches right like she's fucking up all these other girls

and then you know they want to sit around and argue about oh she would fuck you up bro she would fuck you up you know like that's ultimately like what it's about like no one really cares about you know watching a girl's fight I don't think. Well, it's going to be interesting to me it's a bit of a crossroads

because a few years ago it was as big as anything in the sport and I would have argued. But you remember a few years ago like one of the biggest conversations was like of course Rhonda talking all kinds of crazy shit like she beat up King Velasquez

or some shit. But like that was a legitimate conversation going around circles at bars and stuff like Ronald would fuck you up or whatever right? Like that's a legitimate like that got people hyped up in excitement and dramatic and something to talk about. I think like we kind of realize like dude, that's probably not really the case for most of them, right?

Like Kayla Harrison, she probably fuck up. She probably knew well in the men's division, you know, which is a very rare case. But then you have to add in like you got to have like some prettiness to you too. And as much as I love Kayla Harrison, like she doesn't have like that feminine quality about her, right? she's a masculine woman and uh you know that's just what it is man that's just the the case and you know i probably just set myself up for all kinds of fucking hate from this podcast but you know it is what it is man i just fuck it i don't even care you i just say the truth hey you got to give your opinion i like i said i just i can't like i love i love some of

these fights but it just feels like i could not address it because there's just no buzz around it anymore like there's just no excitement like it just feels like like, you know, Misha Tate fought a few days ago, and she's a Hall of Famer, and she was on the prelims. It just felt like there was just no buzz about the fights anymore. I'm like, what happened? Because, you know, like, if you would have, like, when they announced Yang, Jane Wally, you know, Yawanna, you and Jake 2, everyone was like, oh, man, they had a

fucking war the first time. And everyone got excited. Now, like, there's a co-main event on this card between two of the best flyways, and it just feels like, what else is on the card? Like, that's just the opinion. That's just what I've been feeling. Like, I don't know if anyone's even talking about it right now. Yeah.

Is that the way you're feeling or is that there is that the feeling across the board is the question, right? I think it's pretty obvious. It's across the board. Like, I'm feeling that. Like, I think Valentina and Minow is a good fight, but it just doesn't, I don't know. There's just, it doesn't, I don't have that excitement I once had. Like, I used to get excited for the, you know what I mean? It just doesn't feel it.

Valentina was exciting a long time ago when we thought that she was unbeatable, right? And then she kind of got beaten and you're like, all right, well, that's it. All right, cool. We're done. Yeah, I don't know. Like, it puts the women in a very tough position, you know, like it's unfortunate, right? You know, I'm all about women's rights and everything too, but like it's unfortunate, you know, it's just like the WNBA or something.

You know, they're just in a tough position. Like it's just a difficult battle for them to overcome. Like we want to see the baddest motherfuckers in the world, period. And they're not. That's as simple as that. And right now, like WMBA is exploding right now. And a lot of it's because they got new young stars like Caitlin Clark. Everyone knows Caitlin Clark's name.

She had that year at Iowa. And she was incredible. Everyone got behind her. And now, like, there's this buzz of young stars. The WMBA's actually getting attention. That's a great kick. Haysays. W.A. is bigger than it's ever been right now,

largely because of stars like Caitlin Clark who got a buzz about her. There's just none of that buzz right now in women. Like, they're just, there's no, like, I can't name any like 20. I'll predict it right now. It'll come and go in the women's NBA too. Oh, I'm sure it will. I mean, you could argue the men's NBA is on a downturn right now.

Like, no one seems to care nearly as much about that as they did like Jordan. Well, no, I care about basketball anyway. But yeah, like, no, but it comes and goes. But, like, even that, like, right now, WMBA's riding high, and a lot of that's due to Caitlin Clark. And that's fine. just like women's MMA had Ronda Rousey, but now Ronda's clearly been gone for a long time,

and it just feels like there's just no, there is no Caitlin Clark in the U.S.C. Yeah, that kind of goes to my point where it's like, okay, like one person can make the whole sport, whereas in men's MMA or NBA or whatever, like it can't just be one. You know what I mean? Because we're looking, again, we want to see the baddest.

We want to see the best, right? in NBA, which I don't even understand that world, but they want to see the best players, right? They want to see the big dunks. They want to see the crazy stuff. And in MMA, like, we want to see the big knockouts. We want to see the spinning elbows. We want to see the peak level of human violence.

And like I said, like no hate at all. Like you don't see it in women's MMA, period. Like, it's just a fact. Yeah. We'll see. Like I said, I think it's a really interesting time for the sport because, you know. And you can argue, I mean, you could argue this also happened like, you know, there was that argument for flyways. Like people are like, I don't like watching flyways because they're just not as exciting and you don't see as many big finishes.

Now, that, you know, that narrative changes. But I've heard that argument about the lighter men's divisions. Like, I don't want to watch the lighter men's division. They're little. They're small guys and they don't hit hard. Now, you know, I would say band weights like maybe the best division in the sport. That was an argument some people made. And there are still, to this day, people who I hear saying,

I don't want to watch flyways. They're just, there's tiny little guys flying around. It happens. I'm not saying they're right or wrong. I'm just saying, I hear that criticism. Yeah, and I really think like that comes out of kind of what I'm saying, in those kind of party bar conversations or whatever, where you're like, dude, I could fuck that guy up.

You know, he's 125 pounds, right? But then someone like Brock Lesnar comes along and, like, nobody's out there saying, like, I'd fuck him up, right? And I think that goes a long way. And like someone like Demetrius Johnson, that's what's like one of the great things about him. You know, because there was a lot of people, right,

in these kind of bar conversations. Like, I'd be able to fuck him up. And then he goes out in a jihitsu competition, right? And smokes a fucking, you know, 200-something pound brown belt, right? So he's like, no, okay, maybe you wouldn't, right? So I think like these kind of underground

behind the scenes conversations, like this is the little, bits of rhetoric that build up to how much people actually get invested into it. And you can't tell people what to like. Reality, you can't tell people what to like. You know what I mean? You can't tell people like, hey man, you always always thought Muay. Mui Tai should be a big sport.

For whatever reason, it just never catches on the United States. You can't tell people what to like, can't tell people what to watch. I'm sure if you had your druthers, Muay would be the biggest sport in the world. But it's not, at least in the United States, it's not. And you can't tell people what to watch. You can't tell people what to like, much we wish we could. That just isn't how it works.

Yeah, I think to some extent, I think UFC has the marketing power now that they could, if they just wanted like one single person to be the one. But the problem with the UFC doing that, I think they've discovered this over the years, is like they don't fix the fights, right? They don't, you can't just continually give someone good matchups. They will get exposed at some point. So I take it that, I think it's part of why the UFC doesn't do that so much is because you know, it's, it's so unpredictable, the sport.

So, like, they can't predict, like, that this guy is going to, you know, we can promote the shit out of him and he's going to win every fight, right? They never really promoted John Jones. Like, I mean, I remember Dana saying a lot of bad things about John Jones at different times, right? And trying to, like, like, hold him down. But he kept fucking winning, right? And then they're like, okay, we're on the train now, right? And, you know, and that's just the way that it works.

Like, you can't predict it. So it doesn't make any sense for them to invest in someone when they have no idea what he's actually going to turn out to be. Yeah, 100%. But if they wanted someone, if they picked someone, like UFC has the marketing power to make a, to fucking make a turn a star. Like they have that marketing power.

Yeah. Will they do it? And at this point, I think we all agree, UFC is bigger. The brand is bigger. Yeah, for one, they don't need to, but also it's, they know that it'll just get exposed. It's not their best interest. It's not their best interest to do it long term like that. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

Well, as you can tell, I had a little technical difficulties there with Matt Brown, but that's okay. The show is getting ready to wrap up anyway. So we will be back next week, of course. We will give you some follow out from U.S. 315, of course, Bala, Mohameda, taken on Jack Del and Madelma, Fior. We'll have all that. We grow right into more events.

This month doesn't really slow down. I think May and June is just incredibly packed with fight cards. I think Gilbert Burns and Michael Morales is coming up, so we've got a lot more going on. As always, I want to say a big thank you to everyone that tunes in the show. Make sure you check us on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify, and of course over the best website in the world, MMAFighting.com. And for Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin. We'll see you guys next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider.

Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then. Podcast Network. Unwrap holiday magic at Holt Renfrew with gifts that say I know you. From festive and cozy fashion to luxe beauty and fragrance sets, our special selection has something for every style and price point. Visit our Holt's holiday shop and store or online at Holtrenfrew.com.