MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Mike Perry Calls Out Nate Diaz, Mackenzie Dern Picks Best Grappler in MMA

Episode Date: September 20, 2022

On the latest edition of The Fighter vs. The Writer, BKFC star Mike Perry and one half of the UFC Vegas 61 main event joins the show as Mackenzie Dern stops by as well Fresh off a win over Michael “Venom” Page in London, Perry will call for another huge fight as he takes aim at Nate Diaz now that he’s a free agent and able to sign anywhere he wants. Perry believes a fight against Diaz could be one of the biggest cards in all of combat sports but he wants to meet the Stockton bad boy in a bare-knuckle brawl in BKFC. Also on the show, Dern previews her upcoming fight against Yan Xiaonan as the strawweights prepare to headline the upcoming Vegas 61 card on Oct. 1. Dern will also look ahead to the title fight between Carla Esparza and Zhang Weili at UFC 281 as well as reveal who she believes is the best grappler in all of mixed martial arts today. All this plus paying tribute to Jose Aldo and much more on the latest edition of The Fighter vs. The Writer. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts Subscribe: Spotify Read More: MMA Fighting Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two, ghosts in the machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprise his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible original Blockbuster. The Downloaded, it's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, What are you willing to lose to save the ones you love?

The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Support for this show comes from the Audible original The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible original blockbuster, the downloaded.

It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded two, Ghosts in the Machine, available now only from Audible. The Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the Fighter versus the Writer. I'm your host, as always, Damon Martin, and we are back for the attack after another UFC event last weekend. We actually don't have a UFC event coming up this weekend, but we will have

an interview coming up in just a few moments with one of the fighters who will headline the next UFC card on October 1st. Mackenzie Dern is going to join me on the show today. I'm also going to have a special chat with the platinum one himself. First time on the podcast, I believe. Interviewed him before, but never actually had him on the podcast. Mike Perry is going to come on and talk about a fight that he hopes to land in bare-knuckle fighting championships. You probably have an idea already. There's been some buzz around it already, but I want to talk to Mike Perry about this. Of course, this past weekend, the UFC event took place in Las Vegas, the apex. Corey Sanhagan picked up a big win over Song Yadong, got him back on track after a couple losses in a row,

although technically just one loss in a row to Peter Yon, I refuse to acknowledge that he lost to T.J. Dillashaw, he won that fight. Close fight, good fight. Corey won. It was a good fight. Corey looked good. I thought Sonia Deng made a very strong showing for himself. I think Song proved he's legitimately worth, you know, looking at in the top five of the division, you know, where he's at right now. But the cut stopped the fight and rightly so. That cut was unbelievably bad. And that was one fight after Gregory Rodriguez had his head split into from a knee that he got hit with early in his fight. And then he ends up winning kind of going balls to the wall in the second round to get to finish after realizing that, you know, there's a good chance his fight would get stopped. as well. I posted all those photos over on Twitter. They actually got flagged on Instagram,

but they got through on Twitter. And they're rather, they're rather gross, not going to lie. I don't, I don't really get freaked out by blood and I don't really get freaked out by those kind of images. I'm a horror movie fan. So like, you know, that's nothing for me. But yeah, it's pretty gruesome, especially that it's real life. But the one on Song Yadong, you know, it was bad and then it got cut open worse. And I know he said on Twitter, you know, you couldn't see. and, you know, you can't go on like that. I mean, it was a great fight. He made an incredible showing for himself, and he should be proud.

I hope he does get a big matchup for his next fight. I know that was kind of his chance to get a step up in competition and get a higher-ranked opponent, but I hope somebody else around that, you know, area in the Fentdoway Division, or in the Bantlewaid Division, excuse me, we'll take a fight with him coming off that Corey Sanhagan fight. As far as Corey goes, you know, back on track, you know, we had him on the podcast a couple weeks ago. This is kind of what he wanted. wanted to get back in the hunt. He's back there now.

I know he mentioned the possibility of fighting either Marab to Wailishvili or Chito Vera. I said on Saturday night, I think the Cheeto Verra fight is the one that makes the most sense. Cheetos coming up to a big win, big knockout winner of Dominic Cruz. I think Cheeto could still use another signature win to get a title shot. And also timing. We got Al J. J. Delishol fighting coming up in October. You doubt the winner. that's going to go again before March or April

or next year unless something wild happens. So, you know, that would keep one of those guys busy for, you know, for the rest of the year. You know, maybe book Corey and Chito and, you know, December-January area, depending on how quickly they can put it together. The only downside of that is, of course, you do, you know, if Chito loses, you lose a bit of a contender

who is still in there. And, of course, what we're dealing with with Marab right now is Marab is not going to fight Al-Germain. We know that. I'm okay with that. I've said, you know, titles and money change things. So I'll never say never as much as I respect them for having that stance. And I'm not going to bring it up and say, will you fight each other?

Because I know the answer and I respect them, you know, being friends and teammates enough not to want to go there. But we've seen this before in the sport, whether we want to acknowledge it or not. You know, we've seen lots of people say, I'll never fight my friend. I'll never fight my teammate. And then a title goes on the line and a boatload of cash. And suddenly they're willing to fight that. their teammate. Now, I, you know, in a weird way, I, you know, as much as like Marab, you know, probably deserves a title shot right now. I respect the hell out of him for having a stance

and saying, I'll never fight my friend. I'll never find my teammate, my brother, Al J. Sterling. I appreciate that. I do. There's a certain level of loyalty in that, even if it's coming at his own detriment to a certain extent. But I think you got to wait until October plays out, because if T.J. Dillishaw wins, and it's a lopsided fight or he knocks him out or submits him or something like that, then you plug Marab right away. Marab against T.J.'s a good fight. Marab's coming off a win over Josialdo. I'll get to Joseo in just a second.

You know, he's there. If Al Jermaine wins, then, you know, you're in a bit of a stickier situation with a guy like Marab. But, you know, of course, Peter Jan is fighting Sean O'Malley. The winner of that could get Marab. That would be a big fight. I mean, Peter Jan and Marab already have some bad blood dating back to the Al Jermaine Sterling rivalry. So I think that would make a lot of sense.

Sean O'Malley, if he beats Peter Yon, of course, you know, I don't think anyone's going to be shocked if the UFC would rush him into a title shot. He's a star, big draw, and if he beats Peter Yon, I mean, he would legitimately deserve it. I mean, Peter Yon is as good as they come. He was one round away from still being champion right now. So, yeah, so there's a lot of options. But I think Chito and Sanhagan makes the most sense, because when you break it down like

that, you're talking about Marab, you talk about, and don't forget, we got Henry Sehudo coming back as well. I mean, that's the guy who was the champ. He never lost the belt. I mean, you can't discount him. I mean, maybe he fights from Marab. That would be interesting. Marab's got that wrestling background. Of course, Sehudo's a gold medalist. That would be an interesting fight. So lots of options of Bantantheweight. And be honest, none of them are bad. Bantamette is so good right now. None of them are bad. Real quick, before I get to our first interview, I do want to mention the Jose Aldo situation. Of course, he officially retired. Kind of a weird timing of it. He retires on a Sunday with No real fanfare.

Still hasn't really made a statement about it. Basically, just asked for his release with one fight remaining on his UFC contract. The UFC granted him that. He's retired. He may still do a boxing match or something, but as far as his mixed martial arts career, looks like that's done and behind him. You know, I had a chance to reflect on this a little bit yesterday

when the news broke, and I posted a photo if you see it over on my Twitter and my Instagram, a photo I took ahead of UFC 123 in Detroit. And they brought Jose Aldo out there, to crown him the first official UFC featherweight champion. He had just beaten, I believe, was Jariah Faber in WEC, and that was the last event, the last WEC event, and then everyone was coming over to UFC.

So rather than have him fight, quote, unquote, for a featherweight title, they just crowned him featherweight champion, which was, you know, 100% the way to go. But I remember that moment. It was so cool being inside the octagon. One of the only times I've ever actually stepped inside the actual octagon. But, yeah, it was cool. And listen, Josealdo is not.

only one of the greatest fighters in mixed martial arts history. He's a class act. He was always an incredibly nice guy. I remember a couple times interviewing him. I mean, he's, you know, he speaks Portuguese, he doesn't speak English, so he's always had a translator, you know, doing interviews, but you could not meet a nicer guy, kind and always gracious with his time. Just again, incredibly nice guy. And when it comes to his legacy, I mean, listen, that's cemented forever. I mean, I've gone back and forth on the whole debate, which again, it's just a subjective thing about who is the quote-unquote greatest featherweight of all time. There was a time when I said I thought it was Max Holloway. You go out there and beat Jose Aldo convincingly twice and you do what else Max was doing at the time.

I thought, man, this is going to be tough to discount Max. And then, you know, Alexander Volcanowski's got an argument. He has a win over Aldo. He has a couple wins over Max Hollow. A few wins over Max Holloway now. And the last one, most convincing of all, he hasn't been. beaten in the UFC, you know, barely had rounds lost in the UFC, has looked just incredible. Now he's talking about becoming a two-division champion.

You know, Volcanovsky's in that conversation, you know, and, you know, it's a bit more of a flash in the pan because he was there and gone pretty quickly, but you can't, you can't just discount Connor McGregor, at least in the conversation. I'm not saying he is. I'm not. I wouldn't put him at the top. But to go through and do what he did in such a rapid fire fashion and then, you know, beating Josealdo in 16 seconds and I was at that fight, I'll never forget that just the weird, hushed silence

and then the explosion of people being like, what just happened? And then, you know, of course, Connor McGregor went by knockout. So Connor's in the conversation. I don't put him at the top, but he's in the conversation. But when you really break it down, you think about longevity, you think about title defenses, you think about performances and consistency. It's got to be Joseo. Listen, I've waffled on this before. I'm not going to lie and say I haven't. But I think, and it's not just because he retired, it's just when you look at the entire body of work

and the longevity and the title defenses in particular, you know, Jose Aldo's got to be at the top, in my opinion. He is the number one featherweight of all time. Volcanovsky probably has the best opportunity to beat him. He's already gotten through Max Holloway, which I think a lot of people, myself included, would argue he is the other best featherweight in the world right now. You know, I definitely think, you know,

there's a warranted to get more title defenses under his best. I mean, he has the fights with Max. He has the fight with Brian Ortega. He had you going out there. Listen, I understand that, you know, he wants to talk about the second title, and I'm completely okay with that. I have no problem if he wants to go to lightweight and challenge, you know, Oliver, Islam, Benile Dariusio, down the road, guys like that.

That's fine. But I think there's still work to be done at Featherweight. I mean, you know, Josh Emmett has looked good. He's coming off a big one over Calvin Cater. I think you've got to put him in that conversation. Arnold Allen has a big fight coming up with Calvin Cater. He's undefeated in the UFC. you know, if he can stay healthy, I think that's a name you got to throw out there as well.

So I think Volcanowski's still got some work to do as great as he has been. I think he's still got a little bit of work to do to end up in that greatest of all-time debate. And I think a big part of that is because he got wrapped up so much in that Max Holloway trilogy that he couldn't really get other defenses in there besides the Ortega fight. He is just, I think he just needs to move on to other challenges. And, you know, guys like Josh Shemeter are out there for him to challenge. But, yeah, it's Aldo.

those are the greatest. And, you know, I've been fortunate enough. You know, I don't really travel to events much anymore, but I have traveled to a ton of events in my day. And I've been, you know, I've been at a lot of Jose Aldo fights. I was at his fight with Kenny Flore and I was at his title defense with Mark Harmonic. I was at the Connor McGregor fight, of course, but I've been in a lot other ones as well. And again, you know, Jose is exactly what he is, man. He's the King of Rio. He's an incredible ambassador for the sport. As I said, and I know that, you know, listen, accomplishments in the cage, you know, we don't really need even, I mean, we do need to talk about it, but we don't even really need to talk about it because you look at his resume,

look at all the things he did, and then doing it at his second weight class, where a lot of people, myself included, didn't think he could do it, because I was convinced it was going to be too much of a weight cut. I mean, he was not the smallest featherweight in the world. So for him to go down to 135, I was like, oh, my God, this guy's going to be emaciated. And he looked fantastic. Had that battle with Marlon Marius right out of the gate, you know, goes out there. Of course, he has the loss to Peter Yan, no shame in that, but then goes on a great win streak.

And, you know, it's a little disappointing that the end of the road comes, you know, with a basically decision loss in Salt Lake City to Marab. There's no shame in losing to Marab, of course, but it's just a weird set of circumstances. I think all of us would like to see Aldo go out with one last fight. I thought Aldo and Dominant Cruz made all the sense in the world, you know, put that fight on early 2023, a pair of legends, you know. Both guys, you know, one guy is obviously retired. The other guy seems like he will be nearing that. I don't imagine Dominic Cruz is going to stick around for more than a couple more years, if that. I mean, he's got other options.

He's got commentary things he's doing. And, you know, he's getting up there. And I don't know how much damage he wants to continue to put on his body, a body that's already been just abused over the years in terms of surgeries and things like that. So I thought, Aldo and Dominic Cruz was a fight to make. And I thought, what a great way for either one of those guys to go out with that kind of a fight. doesn't look like it's going to happen, although, you know, never say never. But as I said, fight career, the book's been written. Put him in the Hall of Fame. I hope the UFC does the right thing and just immediately inducts him next year. It would make all the sense in the world. But

again, I think there's part of the legacy with Jose Aldo is what he has done or what kind of a person he's been outside of the cage. And he really is genuinely, seems like a good dude. I don't know him that well personally. I just know from interviews and being around him. And he's always been nothing but gracious and kind. I think we actually saw, you know, probably the worst get brought out of him in that Connor McGregor rivalry because Connor made things so personal and it got kind of ugly. And that's just not who Jose Aldo is. Jose Aldo's never been that guy.

He's a very intense fighter. But he's never been that guy to, you know, feel the need to say bad things or say crazy things to get attention or, you know, getting his opponent's face outside of, you know, doing the old school, you know, a Vanderlai-style, you know, stare-down where he just gets a really, you know, really intense stare down, but he's just not that guy. And I think the Conner fight kind of brought out the worst than him, where he was kind of forced to be that guy, even though he's not that guy. But yeah, again, the legacy's written.

It's amazing. And, yeah, I mean, they made a, they made a freaking biopic about this guy in Brazil. That's how famous he is. So, yeah, first ballot Hall of Famer, put him in right away, a career that's untouched, legacy that's untouched, unblemished. He's a legend of all legends. and again, I've come around and said, you know, listen, I've been, I have been short-sighted in the past talking about the greatest of all-time debates, and that's what it is.

It's a big debate. We're all guilty of being prisoner of the moment when, you know, you talk about a guy who's just looks unbeatable like a Max Holloway at the time, and then a guy like Alexander Volcanowski comes along, and now you say, man, now, you know, Alexander Volcanowski's the guy, but it's Josealdo. He is. The title defense is the longevity. It's Josealdo.

And if I'm the UFC, I just announce it tomorrow. he's going into the Hall of Fame class of 2023, and you just hope maybe he'll stick around and do the dominant cruise fight next year, which would be awesome. All right. With that being said, let's get to our interviews this week.

Let's get to our chats this week with a couple of fighters who joined me. Let's kick things off with a first timer on the show. A guy who's never been on here before, he is now 2-0 in his bare-knuckle career, and he's looking for a fight, and it's always interesting to talk to him. So, without further ado, let's talk to Platinum.

Mike Perry. He is the new king of bare knuckle fighting coming off a win over Michael Vennon Page, and I always like talking to this guy. Mike Perry, Mike, how are you, sir? I'm doing well, bro. I like that mustache, by the way. I saw that in your Instagram stories. The general, I like it.

Yeah, I was feeling like, you know, like a military officer. You know what I mean? I don't know. I'm growing up. I'm a dad of two. now going to be and I just feel like I'm the fight games dad too I'm growing up you're the you're the new daddest man on the planet as Daniel Cormier would say right the daddest man on the planet yeah that's good I like it uh congratulations on the on the second child on the way by the way

thank you man we're very excited absolutely so I didn't have a chance to talk to you after the last fight let me go ahead and say congratulations on an amazing winner of a Michael Venneman page. Incredible fight going in that sixth round. I was watching. I was living and dying in every moment. What an incredible fight. And I just want to say congratulations on that.

It was a phenomenal performance. Thank you very much, sir. It was, you know, I love what I do. I definitely love the fight. So I'm trying to bring the heat. And we're trying, that's what we're here for today, to talk about a big fight that the fans really would enjoy. And, you know, I think,

everyone already knows what fight that is. Absolutely. So let's talk about it. Yesterday, Dave Feldman, BKFC president, he was asked about Nate Diaz. He's now a free agent. He's no longer under contract to the UFC. He says he wants to conquer all sports outside the UFC. That means kickboxing, boxing, bear knuckle, everything. And he wants to make a push to sign him. Now, we know that Bear Knuckle has signed big names and brought over big fights. And so I think it's absolutely possible this could happen. And he said the dream fight would be Mike Perry against Nate Diaz. Now, I'm not going to lie, Mike.

That would be a dream fight for me too. I would love to see that. So what was your reaction when you heard that news that, you know, they're going to make a push for it? And to be clear, this is a fight you wanted years ago in the UFC. You asked to fight Nate Diaz a couple years ago. Well, my first initial reaction was, you know, I don't know if that's where he's going.

where his ideas are because he said he wants to go take over other sports as far as he wants to be like the Dana White of an organization or the David Feldman of an organization and run the show and show people how to do it. But I mean, I think he also said things where he still got a lot of gas left in the tank. he's still interested in some, you know, big fights in his career. And I think that's what it's about is if he wants to accept the challenge, challenge himself. He loves to box. I know he likes Jiu-Jitsu too. So I don't know if it's something that he would be fully interested in because, you know, without Jiu-Jitsu against me and just boxing, I don't know if he sees himself having a chance against me in the bare-knuckle boxing ring.

But, you know, it's a lot of respect there for Nadeez. A lot of people have fans have said over the years that, you know, I am kind of like kin to the Diaz brothers and that, you know, we have the same initial feelings towards fighting that if we're fighting, it's a real fight and, you know, all that friendly stuff. It doesn't have to be there until, you know, the victor is is chosen and then we can talk about you know being cool but um i mean it's no

animosity he's a great competitor and i i am as well i'm an amazing competitor and i give my all to the fight it's got my whole heart i'm i love the sport of fighting and in any organization i mean i i love bare knuckle because it's so real and um i think it's a challenge that he's a could possibly be interested in if he started learning about bare knuckle boxing and seeing what it takes from you mentally and physically as an athlete to compete in this sport. Yeah, absolutely. It's funny you say that, Mike, because you're right. A lot of people kind of say that, you know, you, the reason why so many people compare you

and the Diaz brothers together is because we always talk about the realist of the real, right? Like, you're a real dude, you know what I mean? Like, this is no joke to you. this is no you know it's not a sport it's a fight you treat every fight now you can be totally respectful afterwards and you've always done that in your career but that's i think why this is so interesting because you and nate ds you don't know where you're cut from the same cloth you are the realist of the real and we know what we're going to get there's no there's we know exactly what we're going to get when mike perry steps in that bare and uncle ring and you kind of know

that as well with nadez i just think this is like a dream fight right like this would be a dream come true in terms of styles and be honest like in terms of magnitude Like, there's not really a much bigger fight. I know he talked about the Jake Paul fight. We all talk about that. Jake's fighting Anderson Silva. I don't know if he makes it out that Anderson Silva fight. But, like, again, this is a massive fight.

I know he's trying to connect that fight with Jake Paul. As am I. I'm trying to get that fight with Jake Paul as well. Don't know if he gets past Silva. And if he'll be willing to fight after he fights Silva, who he'll be willing to fight if he loses that fight. But, you know, me, I'm out here doing big things as far as, you know, I just fought MVP in his country and I got the win. I traveled to the Dominican Republic as a coach and I fought with Alex Spartan Nicholson.

And he's, he fought for a world championship for the second time over there. And now we're about to go to Russia. And Alex is fighting again. I get to be his coach and corner again over in the number. country and he's fighting a 30 and one heavyweight for another world championship in Russia. And the whole fighting community knows what Russia means, you know, we're up against a bunch of Habibs. And they're very, you know, strict in the sport of martial arts. And even Nate Diaz knows what that means that we're going to enemy territory in one of the most dangerous

countries in the world to fight one of the most dangerous man in the world. And it's me and my bro versus everyone over there. So, I mean, that just goes to show that we are the realist of the real and we're willing to compete and prove to the world that we're the best fighters out here. So if you want to prove that to anyone out there or yourself, you know, we're on a mission. That's what we're doing. I got the Ali shirt. We out here floating like butterflies, stinging like bees,

and I'm platinum Perry, and you know what time it is. I'll fight anyone, anytime, anywhere, and if you really, you know, bowed it and want to challenge yourself, I'm here for it. Absolutely. You know, it's crazy because, of course, I have nothing but the utmost respect for mixed martial arts. That's, you know, primarily what I cover on my day in and day out.

So I love it. I love boxing as well. I'm really looking forward to all the great boxing matches. I watch all the boxing matches. But there is something, you know, inherently real about bare knuckle where, you know, I've said this to Dave Feldman many times. It's all other animal when you step in there, right? Like, because it's not boxing. It's not MMA.

It's not kickboxing. It's a different art form, whole different art form. And you have to be prepared for, right? Like, it's not easy. It's a really difficult sport to adapt to. We've seen a lot of people try it and fail. It is not easy. But it feels like you and Nate, again, that's,

seems like kind of like the, I know he hasn't done Barrennuckle before, but it kind of seems like that's the era, that that's the kind of guy he would come in. Like that just seems to be like the kind of challenge a Nate Diaz would want to step up to, right? Like that just seems like that's the kind of thing like you would talk to them and say, yeah, I'll take that challenge.

They don't seem like they back down from a challenge like that. Yeah, I mean, uh, if you're out and about with your friends, you're out at night, you're drinking and people want to get belligerent and start a fight with you because you're Nate Dias. or Mike Perry, you know, it's about being prepared at all times in bare knuckle because you're always bare knuckle, you know what I mean?

And that first punch you hit people with, I mean, it really changes the game. You've never seen MVP get hit like he did when he fought me. And the first shot I hit him with put him down. And he showed his grit and he got back up and we had a hell of a brawl. but I made it a brawl so that I could get inside and fight him and they gave me the win because I was I was on his ass like white on rice all night long. So, you know, like he, like you said, Damon, if you, you know, want to challenge yourself in a real fight,

Bear Knuckle is the way to go. And, you know, we're talking big money too. We're talking real big money. I mean, since fighting with Barrennuckle and Triller, my taxes look like, you know, what the UFC fighters got paid the other night, all of them. Everyone on the whole roster who got paid the other night on one card, that's what my brackets look like from fighting a couple of fights. So, you know, we're talking big money over here.

It's a real opportunity for anyone involved. It's not just a shot in the dark. not just like, you know, we're talking about the sport. It's real fighting and it's real money. So if you want to get that real shit in your life, come and get some of this platinum heat. I love it. And I know you said, you know, you told me,

or you said after the fight with MVP, or coming out of the fight, your first fight, you said, you know, you weren't totally sure. Was bare knuckle for you? Was it really for you? You go in there, you beat Michael Vennam Page. You hit him harder. You know, you knocked him down.

you had an incredible fight in his home by the way you had to do it in his backyard then you get the win afterwards you said i'm made for bare knuckle this is my sport i am made for this sport there's i mean we talk about the biggest fights in combat sports right now right like the biggest fights we can have in the entire world right now you think about a couple different matchups it could happen you know john jones francis and gondu that would be a fun big fight to watch you think about you know obviously we always talk about you know anytime tyson fury boxes that's always a big deal and i know he's talking about fighting anthony john Josh and Revy. Is Mike Perry, Nate Diaz, you know, potentially the biggest fight we can have in combat sports? I mean, really. I think so. And if you really love the fans, if you want to pay attention to that, I think that the noise is out there for it. I think it's a big possibility that Nate Diaz wants to challenge himself against me for the fans in this sport of bare knuckle boxing for bare knuckle fighting championships. and who knows, we could do it in California in his backyard. And I know that that comes with a lot of, you know,

his people crowding up on my people, as long as nobody punches my girlfriend because you know she'd be at the fights and she's currently pregnant. So don't, you know, don't attack my girlfriend. Don't be trying to kill, you know, fight me. It's you versus me and you can bring your boys too. And I don't know how many of my boys will be there.

But we're going to be there to fight one-on-one. And, you know, you can play all the mental games you want to play with me. I'm one of the toughest men on the planet. And I'm just trying to give the fans what they want to see in the sport of fighting and combat. And that's Platinum Mike Perry versus Nathan Diaz. Absolutely. You know, we saw this, we saw it with Nate's fight with Tony Ferguson. You know, there was no bad blood.

Two legends, two veterans. Nate had nothing with a respect for Tony. Tony had nothing but respect for Nate. But what if we just, we love seeing those kind of fights, right? We don't need trash talk. We don't need the great. Listen, I know you respect Nate Diaz. You know, you said it early.

You got a lot of respect for them. But this is one of those fights and sells itself, right? You don't need to trash talk Nate Diaz. We just put the marquee, Mike Perry versus Nate Diaz. That's all we need to say. We don't need to say anything else. You know, I think about the times when he was talking to Connor McGregor and he's like, I fight top 10 kickboxers, top 10 boxers.

Like, who the fuck do you? you're playing touch butt with that dork in the park. Yeah, I mean, I felt that, Nate, because I've always been trying to up my competition and training. I always have boxed with high-level boxers. And, I mean, the toughest guys out here on the East Coast in Florida, and if I could work with any guys who were traveling into town, I always worked with top 10 mixed martial artists.

I fought the top 15 in the welterweight for the last five years in the UFC. see. So I'm a legitimate competitor. A lot of the fans will give me the credit. So, I mean, Nate, I'm calling you out, brother. I know that you just had a fight. You know, I don't know how much

time you need to heal. I just had a fight as well. But, I mean, let's do it. Let's put on a great show. And I mean, you get to try the real of the real. It's like a street fight. first platinum Mike Perry

I know you liked the box anyway so let's do it man talk about what about this Mike let me set the stage for you here how you go from MVP to Nate Diaz and then Jake Paul would that be like the ultimate like the combo right there right

because I I think the Jake Paul fight like again you had that boxing matcher trailer you won over a legitimate boxer which I love I loved you went out there and did that and again I'm not taking the focus away from Nate but could you think about that three in a row right there MVP Nate Diaz Jake Paul, how huge would that be?

Absolutely. I believe that. I believe that that can happen. And it makes sense because if me and Nate Diaz are both trying to get this Jake Paul fight, I honestly think that we should have a fight to see who deserves that fight if he can get past Silver. And, you know, I know still, I mean, Silva after the Jake Paul fight, if he wins and stuff, you know, I'm not trying to call him out. but I mean, I just, I want the fights that I deserve,

and that's whoever the best is out there that's doing big things. And that's Nate Diaz and me, and the winner that should get the Jake Paul fight or even the Anderson Silva fight, no disrespect to the goat. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Mike, I love it. I think this is a fight that makes a lot of sense. You know, Nate's a free agent now.

he's finally able to sign wherever he wants. He has his freedom, which is what he's wanted for the last couple years. Now he's got it. And again, I think this is, you know, the biggest fight that can be made. I mean, listen, I have a lot of respect for Jake Paul going out there in boxing, even, you know, no matter what he's doing, you don't step in there and play fighting. You know what I mean? You still got to go in there and get punched for real.

And Anderson Silva's as legit as they come. But I think when you talk about big fights, magnitude, all these kind of things, and money. Listen, there's money here, Mike, right? you're not going out there and fighting for free. You're going out there to make money. You and Nate Diaz would clean up at the box office. So this is just a massive fight. I think I'd love to see it.

I think the fans would love to see it. I think everybody would love to see it. Absolutely. I honestly got to say that I'm, you know, I don't know what he's thinking, but I hope this fight is happening. David Feldman ups the pay-per-view price from $4.99 to, you know, maybe $49.99.

That would make some sense. I don't know. the fans would pay for it. Absolutely. Well, Mike, I appreciate you jumping on with me real quick today. Of course, I want to put the news out there. I want to put the hype out there because I think this is a massive fight. And this is it.

We don't know where Nate's going. You know, Nate's free now. He's a free man. He could just, you know, do a one-fight deal, come over and fight you. Then go fight, you know, somebody else. He's like Jake or KS. Whatever he's going to do, do his thing. But this is massive.

And I think it needs to happen. Let me ask you real quick before I get you out here. Like you said, he just fought. Obviously, you just fought. How soon? Are you willing to? wait like if it takes a few months to put this together you willing to wait for Nate Diaz hey I mean whatever I got to do I mean I honestly feel like I could fight uh right now or any time

and then you know I can fight again uh shortly after so but I mean Nate's not the type of guy to wait for a fight I'm out here calling him out maybe he tried to shut me up and um I mean I whatever we got to do to get the fight that that's most buzzing on the planet for the fans and for me, because Platinum Mike Perry is out here trying to fight. I'm out here trying to fight the best competition I can get. So whoever's willing to really, you know, make it all makes sense. And, you know, Nate Diaz, bro, don't be scared, homie. I know you still got a lot of fight left in the tank.

And bare knuckle is just a real. challenge a real opportunity for both of us. So let's get the fans what they want to see. And I think it's you and me versus bare knuckle. I love it. Mike, thank you so much for the time. Again, congratulations

on the baby on the way. Dad is man on the planet. I love it. And we'll talk again soon, all right? No doubt. Make sure, Nate, make sure you hit up my people at FRIV and BKFC and we make this happen. Bro, I know you want to do it. Let's get it.

Love it. Thank you, Mike. All right, bye-bye. A big thank you, of course, to Mike Perry for coming on the show and calling on Nate Diaz. And I 100% believe what I said in the interview. I think it could be a massive, massive fight. I mean, listen, Nate Diaz is a star, and he's going to draw a crowd no matter where he goes, no matter what he does. And, of course, the Jake Paul fight is going to be huge if they put it together.

And that's assuming a lot of things go right. Or depending on how you look at it, depending on what goes wrong. I mean, if Jake Paul goes out there and gets dusted by Anderson Silva, then there's a good chance Jake Paul's going to be looking at Nate Diaz, KSI, you know, those kind of fights. If he wins and beats Anderson Silva, it'll make a whole lot of MMA people sad. But then at that point, I think it's kind of onward and upward for Jake. And not to say the Nate Diaz fight wouldn't still be huge because it would be. But I think, you know, Jake is going to want to continue answering those questions about his legitimacy.

and you don't necessarily answer that by only fighting MMA guys. And listen, in terms of boxing, and I think Nate Diaz, you know, the Diaz brothers in particular have always been very strong boxers, but I think Anderson Silva is a bigger win in terms of boxing. I mean, Anderson Silva has a legitimate win over Caesar, over Julio Caesar Chavez Jr., who say what you will about the guy. He may have had a little bit of an overinflated career because of his last name or because of his name and his father.

but you can't sit there and negate every single win that the Chavez Jr. has. You can say that maybe he was never on Canello's level, which he lost when they fought. But, I mean, come on, you can't sit here and say he's not legit. And for Anderson to go out and beat him. And I don't care what the card said. It was a split decision. It was not a split decision. It was a unanimous decision.

I think Anderson won every round, but maybe one or two. It's super impressive. So, again, I like Nate Diaz, but Anderson still was a bigger win right now. So, you know, Jake Paul beats Anderson Silva. I don't know that the Nate Diaz fight makes sense for him outside of just getting a big payday. Which again, I'm never going to fault anyone for getting a big payday. But I think he wants to move on to bigger and bigger and better challenges, and that means professional boxers. Guys with real professional boxing experience, not the guy that KSI fought, that literally looked like a guy they found off the street,

strapped on a pair of gloves and said, oh, by the way, you have a boxing record. because that was a joke. I mean, that was an utter joke to say that guy. No offense, but that guy was a, well, I guess I am being offensive, but that guy was not really a pro boxer. Sure, he has a couple wins on his record, but come on now. That was not real boxing. And that's why I find it funny about, that's one thing I will say I find funny about the

whole Jake Paul situation is everyone, you know, continuously complains about the lack of boxers he's facing. But, dude, take five minutes and just look up the best boxers in the world. and look up their early resumes. Look up Canelo Alvarez. Look up Tyson Fury. Look up any, like, really experienced boxer and look at the early part of their career and then start looking at their level of competition.

I mean, some people who are considered, quote, unquote, boxers is the loosest definition of the word. Guys with, you know, O and 10 records who are clearly being brought in to just be a tomato can for an upcoming prospect. I would wager guys like Tyrone Woodley are better than the majority of those kind of guys, even though they don't have quote-unquote boxing experience, maybe not Ben Asker. But Tyrone Woodley is legit. And Anderson Silva is incredibly legit.

So I would pick Anderson Silva to beat a lot of pro-boxers. And if he goes out there, if Jake Paul goes out there beats Anderson-Silva, that's a legit win. It's a real legit win. The Nate Diaz fight would still be huge, but I don't know that that's the direction. I wouldn't say because beating Anderson Silva and then going to Nate Diaz, it's not a step down because Nate Diaz is incredible and he's a great boxer. You know, we know his family has history with a lot of boxing guys. They used to train with Andre Ward all the time, things like that. But it's not a step up.

It would at best be a lateral move. And in my opinion, maybe even a bit of a step down to go from beating Anderson Silva to Nate Diaz as a smaller fighter with less experience, no experience in actual boxing. It would be a step down in terms of competition. Would it be a step up in star power? Perhaps. I think Anderson Silva is a star in his own right from all the things he's done. But, yeah, I don't know. If Jake meets Anderson, not to say the Nade Diaz fight can't happen,

but again, at that point, Jake would have to admit that this is just a money fight. It's not a progression fight. It's not a fight that's going to prove him being the better boxer and legitimizing his career as boxer, because, again, at best, it's a lateral move. At worst, it's a step down, honestly. If he loses, which, you know, I think I'm leaning that way. I have a lot of faith in Anderson Silva. If he loses, then Nate Diaz, KSI, Dylan Danis, all these guys can start lining up

and hoping they get to cash in on the paycheck. But if he wins, it might be a different story. All right. Let's move on to my next guy. She is headlining the upcoming UFC fight night card on October 1st at the UFC H-Pex against Jean-Nan in the main event. Great fight, of course, Mackenzie Dern, one of the best grapplers in the sport and one of the top straw weights in the sport. So we're going to talk to her about her return to action, also getting back to her grappling roots a little bit after, you know, kind of falling in love with throwing her hands and training with a great coach and Jason Perillo. So we're also going to talk about who she considers the best grappler in mixed martial arts.

Because when it comes to accolades, there's few as decorated as McKinsey Dern. So I was curious to kind of pick her brain on who is the best grappler in all of mixed martial arts. So right now, let's talk to the woman who will headline the UFC fight nightcard on October 1st. Boating for flight 246 to Toronto is delayed 50 minutes. Ugh, what? Sounds like Ojo time. Play Ojo. Great idea.

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You call 186653310 or visit Comexontera.ca. With Amex Platinum, $400 in annual credits for travel and dining means you not only satisfy your travel bug, but your taste buds too. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. McKenzie Dern. She is one of the top strawweight fighters in the world,

and she returns for a main event coming up on October 1st against Yanjou Nann. I am always happy to speak to McKenzie Duren. McKinsey, how are you? I'm doing good. I'm excited. A fight coming up, but, yeah, training hard and feeling good. Absolutely.

McKenzie, I always appreciate the time. Of course, last time we spoke was before your last win. A big win over Tisha Torres, got you back in the win column. We all know how good Tisha Torres is, and you went out there and beat her and got back, you know, got back in the win column. How happy were you with that performance? I know, you know, fighters are their own worst critics. So I know that, like, there's always going to be criticism.

But, like, it was a good win over a really tough opponent. Yeah, I know. Tisha, she's a hard opponent, you know. She's very experienced. She's fought all the best of the best, you know, from Jean-Weilly, Rose, Jessica and John. She's fought all the top girls, you know. So she's kind of like, man, and almost all the fights have been, like, or split decision or by decision, like, very close. She just had a good movement, you know.

So it was definitely a really important fight for me to get back on the winning streak. But also, too, just kind of to feel like, okay, I can hang with, you know, the best of the best. So it was like kind of to keep my place in the top five. And, you know, it was just, it was a good fight. You know, it was back on pay-per-view, like with a crowd. I had done like five fights in the apex. So it was good to be back in front of a crowd and have that adrenaline. Good vibes, you know, with everyone cheering.

But yeah, it was important. It was important fight for me. I wasn't going in there thinking it was going to be the most technical just because I know she moves a lot, you know? So I wasn't thinking like, okay, we're going to be exchanging with each other. I'm going to be showing my striking in this fight. I know it's like, okay, I just need to try and get to catch her and keep her down. Yeah. It was a quality win.

It was a good win. And then I know coming out of that, you know, we've had so much kind of uncertainty in the strawway division. Of course, you know, we saw, you know, Carlos Spars becomes champion again. Let's be honest, McKenzie. It wasn't the greatest fight in the world. I don't think anyone's going to tell you that it was. But then we're dealing with a lot of uncertainty at that point because, of course, Zhang Lee goes out and knocks out, Yonna, and J-Jake.

Like, Yonna retires, which I don't think a lot of people saw coming at that moment. She retires. You know, Carlo was injured. We're not sure what's going on there. You know, is Jane, whether they're going to get the shot? Are they going to go to Marina Rodriguez? All these different questions. You end up with Yan Jan Jan Jan Nan.

Now, I don't want to downgrade Jan Jan Jan Nann because she's an incredible opponent. But it was like, I thought there were a lot of options. Like, there were a lot of options out there for you. Were you, was there any point where you're getting, I won't say, frustrated, but like, come on, let's go. Because, like, there was a lot of uncertainty for, like, basically the almost, the whole summer until we finally started getting these fights get announced. Yeah, I mean, for me, Yan Shanan was the most, like, the fight that made the most sense,

you know, at this moment because me and her, we both lost to Marina. So it's kind of like, but it was kind of like on hold a little bit. I've never been kind of so much waiting. But, I mean, that's, you know, you can't have everything, you know, everything all the way you want it to be, you know, like, okay, you're hiring. the rank, but the fights aren't, you know, there's not that many options, you know. And when you're back on the rankings, you have fights, you know, you can basically fight every weekend if you want to, you know? So, I mean, everything has their pros and cons. So, I mean, being in the top, you know,

the top five, definitely you're kind of like a little bit on hold. I wasn't used to it, but it was good, you know? I was able to take advantage. I was training. We had Cheeto in a camp. We had Luke Rock Holden camp. So it was just kind of like getting the camp with the boys. And training kind of no pressure, you know, it was good for me, take my mind off, like, always fighting training for somebody, training for someone. I was like, no, keeping that rhythm, you know, this is probably my longest camp I've ever had, you know, and I'm feeling better than ever. So everything happens for a reason.

I was definitely excited to see what's going to happen in the division, you know, like, okay, is Carla and is Carl and Jong Wili going to do it? You know, they were talking about the interim belt for a little bit, maybe they'll be an interim belt, you know, so I was ready. I was ready for whatever, whatever would come. But for me, it made the most sense me and Yan Shanan. Yeah, I need to stop matchmaking for you, McKenzie, because after your win before the Marina Rodriguez fight,

I said McKenzie and Yawanna would be a great fight. Yawanna was coming back. You know, we heard she's coming back. I was like, man, that would be a really fun fight. And I think it's a great fight. You end up getting Marina. And then coming out of the Tisha Torres fight, I was like, you know what, you and Rosnam Yunus would be a really fun fight.

Like, that would be a really exciting, like really fun fight. Then you get Yanjanan. So I'm going to stop matchmaking for you because I think I'm screwing things up for you, McKenzie, because every time I suggest a fight, it goes another direction. So I'm going to stop suggesting fights for you. Yeah, no, I mean, definitely Rose was an option. Youngshanah was the option. Jean-Weley was an option.

They definitely talked about, they even talked about like Jessica and George for a little bit. But, yeah, I mean, there's just so many options. But then at the same time, it was like, okay, what fight made the most sense? Who was ready? who was going to be prepared in time, you know, just fine, to fight days. It's normal. I mean, they have it with the guys division and the girls, so it's part of it. Yeah.

Now, you're booked, you know, your fight is coming up irrelevously quickly, which is why we're talking. I didn't realize, like, technically, like, it's actually only a matter of weeks away at this point. So you've now 100% focus on Yanjan, you know, in the old days of the UFC, when Joe Silva was around, you know, we always got used to certain matchups being made. Like it was always a winner facing a winner. You come off a win, you face another fighter coming off a win. Now, we don't see that as much now.

But Janjana is technically off two losses. Now, I'll be honest. I think I actually scored her beating Marina Rodriguez. It was a really close fight. She got the wrong end of the decision. If I remember correctly, I didn't go back and rewatch it. But I'm pretty sure I actually scored that fight for her. But it was a really close fight.

Of course, she had the loss to Carlos Barza. She is close to you in the rankings, but she is off two losses. So I'm not downgrading her in any way. way, shape, or form? But was there any kind of, like, in the back of your head, say, man, I wish I had gotten like a rose or somebody, like, in that ranking, even though Rose was coming off a loss, but, of course, Rose is a former champion. Or were you okay with Yanjai now?

Like, when you got the name, were you just like, okay, I get it. Yeah, no, I was, I was happy with the fight, you know? I didn't want to fight someone too far into ranking. So for me, she's number five. I'm number four. That's what I mean. I just want to be active, you know? So for me, I don't want to be like, you know, 10 months waiting, you know, seeing if

Rosa would want to fight at short weight or not, what she's going to do, seeing if Carly was going to fight or not, you know, so for me, me and Young, Shainan, that fight has kind of been talked about for a while, even before Marina, even before I fought Marina. And it just ended up not happening. She ended up in Carly. We both came up for loss, you know, and then she fought Marina and I fought Tisha. So, I mean, this was a fight that I knew it was going to happen sooner later.

And, yeah, I mean, I wanted this fight. You know, it wasn't a fight that I didn't want. It was a fight that I wanted. So, yeah, I was excited when they offered it to me. And, I mean, the most important for me was, like, main event. I was like, orange crowd or main event, you know, give me one of those. Yeah, main event, I mean, no matter who you're fighting, when you get a main event, when an event is being built around you,

that's a good place to be, right? Yeah, for sure. I mean, my first ever main event I lost was to Marina, so I'm definitely like, I need to get that back, you know, I need to get that, win. I need to just make up for it, you know? So kind of like that superstitious. I want to get it out of the way. Really just show like, hey, I can win even on the main event with all the attention and all that stuff. Yeah, absolutely. Now, I don't tend to get into like game planning and strategy because it's kind of ridiculous. Like, hey, let me tell you how you're going to fight

your opponent. But Jan Nan is well known as a striker. I don't think it's a giant secret. That's what she does well. And the one fight she lost kind of in a lopsided manner in the UFC was the loss of Carla Spars. And Carla took her down. And that's a giant. And that's a giant. And that's, you know, was the fight that got Carla the title shot. Now, everyone's a mixed martial artist. You have, you have, you have become quite an incredible striker in Reesley. Work with Jason Perillo, the work you're doing. Like, you've got hands.

Like, no one can say you're a jihistu fighter anymore, McKenzie. You got hands. But when you look at Jan Jan Nan, just on the very, like, upper level of it, do you look at that Carla Spars a fight and like kind of like, you know, kind of smile a little bit thinking, well, this goes to the ground. It's probably going to be bad for her. Yeah, for sure. I mean, definitely.

I mean, like you said, she's coming off for two losses. So, I mean, I don't know if she's going to move her strategy, change her strategy, her style a little bit, because she's a little bit more forward. She's more aggressive striker. She's not like Tisha's kind of like, hey, it move, hit, move. Marina's kind of like staying on the outside. You know, Yash and I is more like exchange, exchange,

being in the pocket, you know, and stay there. So I think that was a big reason why she got taken down. Obviously, Carla, too. I mean, her timing for takedowns. I'm nothing compared to Carla. my takedowns, you know, my taketons are kind of like full guard, you know. But if, if Jan Shanan, if she's aggressive, the way she is with Luzh, with Carla, I think that's better for me, you know, so for sure the idea is to take it to the ground, you know,

even though I'm more comfortable standing up, I don't want to stay like five rounds, you know, exchanging with someone who's been doing strike in their whole life, you know. But, and I want to get out, I want to win, get a good performance, you know, hopefully like a bonus, no injuries. The goal is like, you know, of course that's part of the game, but at least injured possible, submit and be training back to training and see what comes after that, you know? So I definitely see this fight good for me, taking it to the ground,

getting submission. I had like two good, with Marina and Tisha, I got in good positions to submit the fight with both of them, you know? Like, Marina, I'm like, Omoplaata and on her back, and I didn't finish the position. And with Tisha, I had like Kimura. and leg lock and I didn't finish, you know what I mean? So definitely even with a loss in the wind, I'm learning something like,

I'm like, okay, I need to get my timing better, you know? Like I think I lost a little bit my adjustment, you know, like I'm not as tight on my timing to submission, which is my strength. So I mean, these are positions that if I get to these positions on Mopata or the, you know, Kimuna, I shouldn't be losing it, you know, or I shouldn't be not submitting, you know. I can't let it, okay, start back up again. So definitely I've been training a lot, my jiu-zitsu for this fight, to get the win.

You know, I want to get the win by submission. So that's the goal for sure. Is there, it's funny you say that. I was talking to a fighter recently who was a wrestler. And, you know, he was talking about like, you know, when you go into Mix Martial Arts as a wrestler, you've got to learn the other things. You got to learn how to strike.

You got to learn how to box. You got to learn the jiu-jitsu. You got to learn that thing. And he's like, I kind of went away. I got away from my wrestling so much that even though I always knew I had it. I always had my wrestling in my back pocket. I kind of wasn't as good. I had to go back to my wrestling.

I had to, like, kind of retool myself a little bit. Was that a little bit for you or Jiu-Zitsu? Because you are, it's naturally ingrained and you've been training Jiu-Jitsu your entire life. I said, Janjana going to the ground with you is a bad idea. Let's be honest, McKenzie, anyone going to the ground with you is a bad idea. But, like, was that a reality? Like, when you had those kind of positions and you didn't get the submissions, like you're like, you know Jiu-Jitsu.

You know it better than pretty much anybody else that you're going to fight, but that you had to, like, sharpen the knife a little bit. Yeah, exactly, you know And it's like You kind of It's like a little bit Like false confidence You know

You think like okay If I'll get it there You know I'll submit them You know And I got to all these positions And then I'll sort of like They're resisting

You know And like back when we're in the 15 And the rank Or not even ranked You know Okay the girls like tap A little bit easier You know

Not all the girls of course But then I'm like Oh wait Now the top five It's different You know These girls are going to tap Just because they're like

you know, scared of, you know, the submission or, you know, just because I'm, I'm, they're, they're, they're like, these are the best of the best, you know, we're not, you know, we're not, you know, we're not, you know, these are former champions, the champ, you know, they're not going to just tap because, you know, they're feeling pressure. So it's like, I feel like, I don't know, with Tisha, for example, like, I'm on the kimuda and I'm, like, doing it, 90, 98% of the people would tap, you know, and it's, you know, you have to be a little bit mean like okay just rip it you know what I mean it's like okay you know maybe they'll tear their shoulder you know have to have surgery or something like that you know and that's of course that's not

my goal but you know we're all adults here we're all like they're going to probably try and hurt me you know what I mean so it's like just getting that ingrained and remember like okay I need to do it you know I need to just you know I'm not going to be like technical like okay technical to get the position but I'm not going to like okay give her a chance to tap no you need to just go you know she's resisting she's resisting you know she knows that you she's in a bad position, you know what I mean? And these are things that I'm thinking about during the fight. Like, okay, pretty soon she's going to tap.

Pretty soon she's going to tap. Oh, sure, she's not tapping. Like, man, she's resisting, you know? It's like, yeah, because these girls are tough, you know. They're not going to just give up a loss for nothing, you know. So I'm like, okay, I'll get to the next position. I'll get them in the toe hold. Okay, I'll get it.

And then I'll send the time's over, the rounds over. Like, oh, man, like, what do I do? You know, so it's just that timing that really like working on the other things, you know, my striking, closing the day. distance and then I'm kind of like I lost that that little that that timing you know to get the submission and not let it get away you know so definitely I've been working on that for this fight I guess like being a little bit more meaner and just know that like hey we all signed up for this and now we're on a different level now so yeah I'm excited I remember a year like when I

first started training jihitsu years ago I remember I wanted to be tough I got caught in an arm bar and I wanted to be tough and I wouldn't tap I was fighting fighting fighting fighting trying to get of it. And I ended up hyper-extinginged my elbow really badly. And I realized at that moment, like, it's okay to tap. It's okay to, like, just be done in that moment. But, like, that's the reality, though. Like, like, you have to be willing, because some people are willing to, like, let their bones break. They're willing to let their shoulder get ripped out. They're willing to let their knee get shredded. And I've seen it with, like, uh, heel hooks and stuff. Like, those are the nastiest things when you get, like, an inverted heel hook.

If they don't tap, that's on them. You know what it means? Like, if you have to, if you have to go home with your opponent's shoulder, you have to go home with their arm. Unfortunately, you're a great sport, but that's the nature of the business. Yes, yes, exactly, 100%, you know, and not that like, oh, oh, I was being nice. No, it's not necessary that, you know, but it's just, you know, you have that false sense of confidence, like, oh, if you get to the ground, I'll be able to submit, you know, you even, like, change positions, change position. I went from, like, Kimura to Toho to leg locks, and then when you see it, okay, the time's over. You're like, oh, man, I did so much and I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything, you know what I mean? And it's like, okay, for sure, maybe they

get tired, you know, from fighting that. I definitely don't, me, at the ground, I don't get as tired as strikers on the ground, you know, but still, I can't be losing those positions, you know? I mean, I should be finishing the fight there. Yeah, so what you're telling me is, is you're going to go back home with Jan Jan Jan's arm in your backpack is what you're telling me right now, right? Like, that's the story you're telling me? Is that true? Yeah, I mean, whatever, whatever she gives me. neck, foot, leg, arm, I don't know, we'll see you. Yeah.

Hopefully, it's not up. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. You know, I know when I, you know, when people ask your opinion about different things going on in the division. And right now, it's important because you are so close to where you are in the top five, where you are knocking on the door, title contention. I am curious your opinion, McKenzie, because when I talk to Carla Spars after she won, she told me, she's like, I think Marina Rodriguez is the most deserving in the division. And at that point, Dana White had already said, you know, you know, Zhang Wei Lee's going to get the title shot. We still don't know until the contractor signed, but we know it's been announced now. It's going to be Zhang Wei Lee.

As a person who fought Marina and that seemed like a natural, like, kind of number one contenders fight at that point, in your opinion, I know the fight's made. So I'm not trying to get you take shots of Zhang Wei Lee. But did the UFC make the right call? Like, do you believe Marina should be? Because, like, she's obviously already got another fight booked. Like, in a way, I kind of feel bad for her because she's on a great streak. And, you know, Zhang Wei Lee's only one one. Now, granted, it was a great winner

where you want to go on J-check, but I don't know, like, I kind of feel bad for Marine in this moment. I mean, honestly, I thought that John Wealey should have fought for Carla. I mean, I feel like they should fight because, I mean, Marina already lost to Carla,

so I don't know. I mean, I feel like, I don't think that Marina needs to prove anything more to go to the title, but I think Jungwee Lee being the ex-champian and she's never fought Carla before, that makes more sense for me. right now and then Marina be next in line, you know?

So, I mean, I was surprised to see Marina accepted the fight with Amanda Lamos. That's like, I think, number 10, maybe in the ranking. But, I mean, for sure, like, if she wins this fight, I think she should have been to the winner of Jean-Wea Lee and Carla no matter what, you know? So for sure if she wins, I don't see anyone to be in front of her. If she loses, then that's like, man, that was a risk, you know what I mean, a little bit risky, I thought. But, I mean, for me, Carla and Jean-Weilly made sense, you know,

Jean-Weilly is an ex-champian. And, I mean, Carl already beat Marina before, you know, so like to see a rematch. I think it was a little bit more exciting, Jean-Weilly and Carla. Can I ask your opinion on that fight between Zhang and Carla? Because I think a lot of people have kind of already anointed Zhang as the new champion, and I get it. Zhang-we-Lie is a monster. I mean, she is really, really good.

and, you know, the only kind of flaw she's shown in her game were the two fights with Rose, and the second fight was really close. Do you lean one way or the other? Because I think Carla's going to end up being a, as champion, Carla's actually going to be a pretty big underdog in this fight. Yeah, for sure. I mean, man, I feel like just being surprised,

surprised by the last fights, you know, of Carla. Not that she's bad, but it's like, man, she has her game, the wrestling, and she's just so good at her timing. It's like she can put it with like no matter if she fights a jiu-jitsu girl or a striker. You know what I mean? She can just put her game with any type of person, you know? She's like just mature as a fighter experience. So, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Carla takes Zhang Weli down and is able to like kind of ground and pound and hold her down there for all the rounds.

Because from what I saw with the fight with Carlos with Zhang Weli and Rose, when they had some takedowns was in, New York. I saw some, like, openings there, you know, the ground game for both of them, the wrestling, you know, I think that Carla can do enough to get the takedown and kind of just control her there. You know what I mean? If she can do that for five rounds, I don't know. But, I mean, I won't be surprised if Carla gets us upset.

Yeah, it will be interesting to see. I know that's a fight we talked about a long time ago. They actually tried to make you and Carl at one point. It didn't happen. I would still love to see that down the road somewhere because that's the one thing. Like, you know, you, you, like, we know how good you are as a grappler, or incredibly you are as a grappler. I like that wrestler grappler matchup,

but that would be interesting because, again, it forces both of you out of your comfort zones a little bit. But I always loved, I love when we see those kind of great grappler exchanges because, like, I remember back in the day, you probably remember this fight when Damien Maya fought Jake Shields back in the day. And they had some of the wildest exchanges on the ground. One of my favorite fights. They just were scrambling all over the place.

I love those kind of fights. Yeah, yeah. But honestly, I think if I was surprised Carla, it would probably end up striking. It would probably end up being strike. You know, when you see, like, when they both just, like, you know, take each other's game off, you know, I feel like we'd end up be striking each other. But we'll see.

Definitely for sure she would want to take to the ground. I would like to be on the ground and play on the ground, you know. But if she, I mean, because with Rose, I don't feel like neither of them did too much, you know what I mean? So I thought that she was going to be taking Rose down a little bit more. And I also thought that Rose was going to be. going to be striking a little bit more with her. But you never know. It's crazy the fight game.

And we just saw like Leon Edwards with a 50 seconds left of the fight knockout tomorrow. So it's like you really don't know. Yeah. Now I'm going to put you on the spot here, McKenzie, because we talk a lot about your grappling pedigree. And in terms of your accomplishments in the grappling world and what you're doing in mixed martial arts, I think, in my opinion right now, you are the top grappler in mixed martial arts right in, like in terms of the UFC right now, like in terms of where

we're at. And the reason I'm asking this question is we've seen a bit of a changing of the guard. You know, Jacqueray is retired. Joket, of course, legend. Damien Maya, same thing, legend, legendary grappler, legendary fighter and all this kind of things. Taking yourself out of the equation right now because, of course, you've accomplished so many things in Jiu-Jitsu and now what you're doing in the UFC. I'm curious your opinion, McKenzie. Who do you believe in the sport right now is the top grappler in mixed martialist?

So we used to always say it was Jokre. We used to always say it was Damian Maya. in the UFC, I guess. Let me say UFC. Let me drill it down there because we could talk about Marcus Buccecha over in Pr, over in one, different things like that.

There's different jiu-jitsu. In the UFC, you take yourself out of the equation right now. Who is the top grappler, do you believe, in mixed martial arts right now in the UFC? I'm curious. Man, it's a hard, it's a hard,

it's a hard question because it's like, okay, in my opinion, the best jiu-jitsu guy in person in the UFC is Charles de Bronx, you know? But because,

of his jiu-jitsu in M-M-A, you know, because in Jiu-Tzu, he wasn't like Blackfell World Champion or ADCC champion or anything like that, you know? So it wasn't like in the J-Jitsu world. He's the most, you know, famous guy in J-G-J-J-Tu. But his jiu-Tu in M-M-A, for me he has the best J-Jitsu in M-M-A, you know, the most submissions, the most, like, aggressive, the most, no-s have to play on his back, no one has had to play on his top, you know? So if you want to know the best J-Jitsu in M-M-A, Charles de Bronx.

for the best, like, jiu-jitsu athlete that is in the UFC now. Let's see. Man, that's hard. I think Durino, Durian for sure. Durian, Gilbert Burns. Yeah, he has the most, like, his jih Tijuana game, when we were in the Jiu-Jitsu community, when we were competing both in Jididu,

like people stopped watching fight, you know, world champion, ADCC, crazy, and he's able to, like, do that in MMA, you know. strike, jit-to guy striking, you know? He goes in and he is not scared, you know, getting punched. And he has his takedowns, everything. So definitely, I think the best, like, most high-level jih-to-ggyzoo guy in M.M.A. now, Durino. But the best, like, jujitsu for M.MA, Charles DuBronx.

Charles is so ridiculous with how good he is. His transitions and the way he applies his jiu-setsu, both, as you mentioned, on top and in the bottom. You look at the fight with Destiporri on top. He spent a lot of time on top. there and then you look at like the just a geesey fight where like he kept inviting just down in his garden just didn't want to know part of it but you make one mistake against that guy and he will make you pay and he does his his jiu jitsu for mma is ridiculous the way he climbs on people gets on their backs i mean he is like i just i love watching that guy and i've always loved

watching charles but the run he's on right now is unreal yeah no he's definitely like matured as a fighter I mean, he's been, what, almost 10 years in the UFC, I think. So it's like, man, you can definitely tell he's really, like, hit this maturity as a fighter, like intelligent, confident, strategic, just everything. It's all kind of connected now. It's like he's gone to the black belt of MMA. You know what I mean? So it's like, you know, always as we're going up in the belts, white, bell, blue, belt, purple belt.

Sometimes we're really good at guard game. And then we start to work on a passing game, like maybe at purple belts, so we're kind of passing game, and then the brown belt, we're working a lot of our submissions. And then by the time we're black belt, we kind of were able to, you know, be good at everything, you know, and I feel like that's really where he's good. I don't see him losing the belt for a while.

Can you take inspiration from that in terms like your own style because you do have a grappling base, but you have developed, as I mentioned, working with Coach Jason Perlow, worked on your hands. We've seen you, you know, knock people down with your hands. We've seen your boxing improve. And now, you know, you're no longer. as I said, we can no longer call you a Jiu-Jitsu fighter. You are a true mixed martial arts.

Now, of course, you have a deadly ground game, but you can no longer just be called a jihitsu fighter. Can you take inspiration from a guy like Charles and look at him and see the things he's doing and say, wow, that's like something you can aspire to in a way? 100%. 100% from his records to just like, okay, staying calm, you know, not feel like pressure that I need to be 100% developed

in what four years in the UFC, nine in four or five years in the UFC, it's like, you know, like I said, he's 10 years until he got to this point, but it's like now that he's there, he's the best in the world and, you know, there's no doubt about it, you know? So it's like just even his story, his journey that he did, it definitely is inspiring for me, like, okay, you take,

be calm, you know, take your time, you know, each fight, you know, each fight learned and it's experience, you know, strategic wise, be smart, you know, I see like sometimes Charlie C kind of gets rocked a little bit and he pulls guard, you know? That's something that like I'm learning to like, okay, play smart. You know what I mean? Okay, if I get rock, don't like try and stay standing up and give it back. You know, like, okay, you can pull guard, you know what I mean?

Like kind of pull guard like, okay, see if they come into your guard and something like that. You know, all that's time and experience that you get. So definitely 100% I can connect and be inspired by Charles de Bruns. Yeah, it's funny you say that because I remember, and I know we've had this conversation before, McKenzie, when you first came into UFC and you were first coming in from grappling in to MMA. And everyone, you know, wants to immediately say, well, you're the next this, you're this. You know, everyone's saying you're the next Ronda Rousey because you were the grappler coming in

and you had all this, you know, all this hype around you. It takes time. It takes time. Like, you know what I mean? like you are now, like you are legitimately a top five fighter in the world. And I believe, and I'm saying this, and I'm not saying this, because we're doing this interview. I'll say it public, I'll say, I truly believe my heart and hearts, you will be a

UFC champion one day. It may not be tomorrow. It may not be a year from now. It may be two years from now. But like it takes time. Like this is, this is a marathon, not a sprint. And Charles Olivaire is a perfect example of that because there was a time. A few years ago, people would have written him off.

You know, he's, you know, he's good, but he'll never be a champion. He's not going to be that guy. it takes time and like I said you had that pressure on you since day one you I mean you you didn't have a fight yet and people are saying you're going to be this and that and that you like you were saying it everyone else was saying it for you but like I said now you're growing now you are legitimately a tough firefighter you are a legitimate threat to the child you see like it does take time yeah exactly you know and like you said yeah I've been like I've been feeling that since like in the beginning you know like oh man if if you fall into it you know what I mean if you fall into

that whole process because Because the UFC, you know, that's what they need, you know, they need, you know, up-and-comers. They need, like, the next big star. They need, you know, all that's good for the UFC, too, you know what I mean? The people like to see who's in the up-and-comer fighter, who's going to go and take out the champions. So it's like, man, if you fall into that vibe and, you know,

and Komas go up really fast, you know, it can be hard, you know what I mean? You can fall under pressure or something like that, you know? So it's really just, you know, take your time. you know, make the right decisions. Take each fight as you go, you know, like learn as much as you can. No, not too much pressure. Like, man, okay, it's hard because with the UFC, you know, like a lot of the UFC fans, like if you have a loss that's like so bad for your record, you know.

But at least in the jihitsu world, we can have like, you know, you have like thousands of fights, you know what I mean? So we can have like 100 losses and have a thousand wins and it's not a problem, you know? Yeah. You've always seemed very grounded though. You've never seemed like you've let it get you. your head. Like I know even like I remember we did our first interview. You have no memory of this. I remember. We did our first interview. I think you were making your debut or maybe you had one fight at that point. And like I'm

guilty of it too. Like I was like, oh, there's so much hype. I was so excited about you coming in the sport. You've never, you've never seemed to like really like you appreciate the compliments. I know you do. But like you've never seemed like that's fared into your ego. And I imagine that's a lot of your upbringing. Of course, your dad's incredible, you know, jihad so like it seems like you've always stayed. And you've always stayed grounded. You've never allowed that to get you. You're a good or bad. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think definitely like the jih Tijuana, you know, like the jih Tijuana, you know, like I said, I can be in the same tournament. I can lose my weight division and then go and win the absolute on the same day, you know what I mean? And it beat the same person who just beat me in my division. So

the wins and losses, it's very like, you know, and even my whole jih Tijuana journey was kind of similar, you know, I was like always the up-incomeer, like everyone talked about me. Then I had like a couple of surgeries, ACL surgeries as soon as I got to black belt, you know. So I was doing good like podium and stuff, but I wasn't getting the wins that everyone was expecting on me. And then as soon as I started to get kind of mature as a fighter as a black belt, then it was just I was able to like go on a row and win. And I really was able to find my place. You know, so I kind of felt like that's what's going to happen to me in MMA. But I mean, I'm not going to say it didn't follow it for sure.

Like before I got pregnant, I was done. definitely fighting kind of like a little bit rebellious time, you know, a lot of like, you know, everyone talking about you, you know, you're making money and all these things I was partying a lot. But I mean, I was a fight. I've been training my whole life, you know, so I definitely think I took a little bit, a little bit of time to, I don't know, to kind of like enjoy life a little bit, enjoy life as in I lost focus, you know, a little bit. And it was just like, man, everyone's talking about me and all the same, all this stuff. And I'm like partying and, you know, after the fights and stuff like that.

So, I mean, it wasn't as if, I mean, I didn't even think I was going to be a champion. People were seeing that in me before I even saw them myself. So it wasn't that I fell into, oh, yeah, I mean, they're going to be in front of my story, you know, so I'm not like ashamed of it or anything like that. Yeah, well, I know you've talked honestly about, like, how much your life has changed since you became a mom. like how, you know, you're in, we've seen it. Like, I feel like in a way we are seeing McKinsey during 2.0 right now. Like, there's McKinsey before you're a mom and now McKinsey as a mom.

And I feel like we're in a different phase of your career now, like, in a way, you know? Yeah, for sure. And it's so awesome, like, to be able to have the fans and how they can follow me. And kind of they, the fans are literally watching like me girls a fighter. You know what I mean? They watch me from like when I was so raw as a MMA fighter just like putting my head down. and okay, I had a lot of heart and stuff and I'm just kind of like doing whatever, you know?

And like they're seeing like even my different phases from when I was at the lab to when I was at Black House to now that I'm at, you know, Ruka was Coach Perillo. So it's like, like this is exciting for me. I feel like, man, this is so cool to see like the fans are watching me grow and I feel like when I become the champion, you know, it's not going to just be like my victory, you know? It's not going to just be like my accomplishment.

You know, it's going to be like our accomplishment. you know, everyone who's like, followed me, everyone's just kind of like, seeing my process, seeing the hard work, seeing the ups and the downs and like kind of believed in my, my journey. Yeah, absolutely. Real quick, before I let you go, McKenzie,

I saw an interview you did. I think it was really this summer. You were talking about your daughter. Your daughter's doing jiu-suitzoo now, is that right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, she was already doing jihits at home. But, yeah, now we let her, we let her go and train with the other kids.

So we kind of like, okay, now you're ready. Go in, go and enjoy. with some of the kids, you know, because at home she, like, wants to beat up on mom, you know. So now she has other little kids. Kids that will, you know, have the same strength as her. And, like, I'm kind of letting her see what she needs to work on, what she doesn't work on. And then at home, I'm like, okay, do this, do that? How is that in terms of stress?

Because I know, like, Tommy, you mentioned Doreno, Gilbert Burns. I know he teaches his kids jujitsu. And, like, he teaches kids at his gym as well. But, I mean, it's probably like a whole different feeling, watching your, daughter, like do Jiu-Jitsu, right? Like, it's all, like, now you know what your dad went through probably. Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, it's hard because you don't want to, like, pressure them, you know, it has to be like something that they want to do, you know, and she definitely wants to do it, but, you know, I mean, there's some days that, like, she's tired. She didn't have a nap,

you know, and she's kind of like, oh, I don't want to go. I don't want to do this. You know, so it's like very, you know, you have to, like, find the right spot as in, like, to pushing them in, like, pressuring too much, you know? But it's definitely like, for, sure I feel like my heart like oh this is so good um she was liking to do like a lot of striking you know and i'm like no jih Tijitsu jih Tizu so like i wanted to bring her to the jitsu side um but yeah i mean even like at the school it's kind of hard because she's kind of starting to do jihits on the kids at school and you kind of have to like no just do jih Tuditsu class you know not with the kids at school so but it's not part of the process she's just playing you know it's nothing like

crazy but man that's what she grew up with you know watching mom like fight all the time so passing it down. It's part of the family. I mean, it's the family tree, literally now, from dad to you, now to her. Yep, exactly. And it's crazy because she sees a lot of, like, my, I have like a samurai sword that I went from a competition, my belts, my trophies. And she sees it and she says like, oh, when I'm a blackout, I'm going to get one of those too, you know, and she'll say that all the time. I'm like, yeah, when you get a black belt,

but you have to train, you know. Oh, man, that's got to melt your heart as a mom when you hear that. And she's like, I want to do that. I want to get that like you, Mom. Like, that's got to just melt your heart right there. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, McKenzie, it is always a pleasure to catch up with you. I really do appreciate the time.

Obviously, have a great rest of your training camp. Safe travels out to the fight. Cannot wait to see you back in action October 1st. And thank you, as always for the time. I really do mean it. I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. It's great to talk to you.

And let's do it, October 1st. Talk to you soon, okay? Talk to you soon. Bye-bye. Want to say a big thank you, of course, to McKenzie Dern for coming on the show. She has her big fight coming up against Janjow Nan on October 1st, pivotal fight. In that Strawaway Division, of course, we know Carlos Sparza is going to take on Zhang Wei Lee as part of the upcoming UFC 281 card in Madison Square Guard, New York,

Israel Adisania, taking on Alex Paheahia in the main event, and Michael Chandler against Dust of Porier. Oh, I wish it was five rounds, though. That's my only caveat to that, which was a five-round fight. Although, who knows, maybe they won't go five rounds. I mean, Justin Gagey and Michael Chandler put on a show in three rounds, so I assume Michael Chandler and Dustin Porey will do the same thing. But it's an embarrassment of riches.

November's great. The November pay-per-view card is incredible. And then, of course, October, UFC 280, Charles Olivaira, Islam Makachev, Al-Aljamein, Stirling, T.J. Dillish, Peter Jan, Sean O'Malley, Benel Derrush, Matush, Gamrot. Just an embarrassment of riches, the next couple of papers. reviews. We still have December to come, which I know there's a lot of talk. We reported, of course, Yuri Prakashka and Glover Tashire is targeted for that card. As far as I know, it's still not

official. I know that's the date Yeri wants, and by extension, that's the date Glover will be happy to take. But it just seems like a matter of timing. And also, the UFC is planning their return to Brazil in January. Losing a guy like Jose Aldo who could have easily headlined or been one of the main marquee fights on that card, probably hurts a little bit. bit. You got Amanda Nunes out there as a Brazilian champion who could potentially headline a card or potentially, you know, help lead a card. But I don't know that her against, you know, Irene Aldana or Ketla Vieira is going to necessarily bring a lot to the box office, if I'm being honest. So, you know, they got a headline out with something. So I know that was the

original talk was Glover and Yere fighting in January. But, you know, Yeri as the new champion, and I don't know that he really wants to go all the way to Brazil to Glover's backyard for a fight. But, you know, we know how the UFC can convince people, let's say, to take the fights and the dates that they want. So we'll see what happens with that one. But, yeah, lots and lots coming up, and we got a lot of interviews coming up on the show in the next few weeks.

So stay tuned for that. I want to say a big thank you to everyone the tunes in each and every week to the fighter versus the writer. We will be back with more next week and make sure to check us out of all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify. and, of course, over on the greatest website in the world. MMAfighting.com.

A big thank you, as always, a big thank you, as always, for everyone that tunes in each and every week to the show. We'll see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Writer. Thanks for tuning it in. We'll see you then.