MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer Reacts to Jon Jones’ Win Over Stipe Miocic at UFC 309 and a Possible Conspiracy Theory About His Future in the Sport

Episode Date: November 19, 2024

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin discuss the fallout from UFC 309 where Jon Jones dismantled Stipe Miocic in the main event but what exactly did that do for his career and legacy? Plus we discuss a potential conspiracy theory about Jones’ future and whether that involves a fight against Tom Aspinall plus much more. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes. To the Vox Media Podcast Network. To the fighter versus the writer, I am Damon Martin. I am in less than sunny, Ohio, but I am joined as always by UFC legend in very sunny Thailand. Very sunny, very hot, very humid, but very fun. So over and I do a little fight circus

fighting Blob-Tang I saw on the live stream, so it seems like you're having a good time over there. Yeah, me and Blop Teng went to war, bro. I saw the back elbow, man. Nah, yeah, we had a good time, man. It was a fun show. We had Coleman involved, doing some wheelchair boxing, and some midgets doing some dick kicking.

It's just a shit show. You know, everybody thought that, see, we had to one-up the Paul Tyson shit show. And we had to do a real shit show. Yeah. So we had our own near 60-year-old man involved with less risk of damage. But I think we did a better shit show than the shit show in the states that, what, 70 million people watched? Yeah, 60 million people.

It was insane. Yeah, I mean, I think it was real. I mean, I think it was real. Netflix has 282 million subscribers. People could have just, I mean, literally, they just had to. to tune in and hit their, you know, hit their Netflix account. They probably watched it. So, I think it's probably real now because also the streaming problems, man,

it was a, it was a hard show to watch with the streaming issue. So a lot of people definitely seem to be watching that one. But I'm happy to report, though, that we did make a little pre-fight bet, and you got to pay that off when you get back here in Ohio. What was our bet? So the bet was, because we talked about Papa Roach, your all-time favorite band. if Jake Paul won, you had to play a Papa Roach song on the show.

You had to learn a Papa Roach song on your guitar and play it on the show. So I'm here to tell you, Matt, I won the bet. So I'm saying right now you've got to learn how to play Last Resort, the most famous Papa Roach song, because that's got a good guitar to it. So that's got to be your part. So when you get home, you got to learn that song, you got to play it on the podcast. I think I can do it right now.

I have my travel guitar. Yeah, it take me five minutes to learn that fucking cheeseball shit. Yeah, so that's... Why the fuck would I bet on... I thought you bet that Jake Paul would knock him out, though. Am I wrong? No, we just bet on who would win. You bet on Tyson.

I was like, oh, that's a pretty risky bet right there. Yeah, I'm remembering now. I was like, you know, that's not a huge loss for a bet, so why not? Yeah. Did you even watch the fight? you watched the fight on Friday? Unfortunately, yeah. I mean, it was what we've, I mean, honestly, like, it wasn't good, but I mean, I think it would

feel worse if he would have gone in, like, actually knocked out Mike Tyson, you know what I mean? Like, I think that would have been much worse. So, like, eight rounds of them dancing around and, like, you know, barely engaging. No one got hurt. I mean, you know, I mean, Dana, Dana said it last night at the press, he's like, if you watched that and got upset, what the fuck did you expect? Like, what did you go in expecting it?

wasn't going to be a good fight. It's like, what did you expect? So, yeah, I mean, you know, it was what it was. You know, I mean, what do we expect? You know, it was, I mean, come on. It was 58-year-old Mike Tyson against 27-year-old not very good boxer Jake Paul. We got what we paid for, which was actually nothing. If you have Netflix, you didn't pay anything for it. So, you know, it is what it is. Yeah, it was exactly what we expected, right? Anybody in the note, like, I guess we all watch because it's my Mike Tyson and he and he looked like a 58 year old Mike Tyson. I mean, that was literally exactly what he looked like.

And it was like I said beforehand, it was a travesty that it was even happening. But afterward, I was actually more pleased because Mike didn't get hurt, right? He didn't take big damage. It looked like he might have got rocked a little bit at one point. But, you know, it wasn't anything severe. I don't feel like his life got shortened. And I think that's what we were all worried about. And you know what?

And I know this sounds weird to say credit to Jake Paul, but I'm glad Jake Paul didn't go out there and try to knock out. Like he actually said, like, he probably did take the foot off the gas a little bit. And you know what? Like, I kind of respect him for that because even though it was a total shit show and a mockery, whatever. But I think things would have been so much worse if he would have actually knocked out Mike Tyson.

Like it would have just gone sub. Like people would, I mean, people already don't like Jake Paul. People would have despised him if he would have actually gone out there and knocked out Mike Tyson. So dancing around for eight rounds, nothing really happened. Mike didn't take any serious damage. He probably got paid, you know, $10, $15 million for that. So I'm not going to really like, for that, for what it ended up being, he didn't take damage.

He didn't get hurt. And he got like $15 million, dude. Good for him. Yeah, I heard it. I read he got $20 million, which is, like he said, which is cool. I feel like no matter what would have happened, Jake Paul would have said I was taking it easy on. Even if he would have knocked him out, he'd be like, well, I wasn't trying to, you know?

Yeah. Like, that's definitely like a Jake Paul line right there. Yeah, let up on him. It is what it is. I don't know, but maybe he was, maybe he's being truthful, but he's saying that no matter what, I think. Yeah, but again, for what it was, I can't get upset. You know what I mean?

Like, what did I, what did anyone expect? You can't get mad at that. You know what I mean? Like, it was a, it was a show on Netflix. You didn't pay for it. Everyone's got Netflix. No one went and bought Netflix just to watch that fight or if you did. I'd be shocked to hear that.

So, yeah, I mean, you watched it, okay? Again, they weren't trying to charge like $100 for an increase stupid like that. It was on Netflix. It was, you know, it is what it is. And the silver lining in everything was, you know, if you're a fan of women's boxing, I mean, they got the biggest promotion they could possibly ask for ever from actually probably one of the best women fights boxing matches I've seen. Unfortunately, I wasn't watching it really close, but.

I don't know how closely you watched it. It looked like an insane robbery. It did. It was. I thought Amanda Serrano clearly won that fight. I was, I thought she won the first one, but the first one was really close.

So I was like, you know what? It was a couple rounds difference. I don't really have a huge issue with Katie Taylor winning, but I thought Amanda Serrano. This time I was like, I thought Amanda Serrano was up about three or four rounds.

Like, not even really that close. Like, for boxing terms, it's not that close when you're, four rounds at the end of a fight. And for her to win that after also, don't forget, she got a point deduction too for headbutting. I'm like, how do you... I mean, boxing, like, judging...

We're also judging an M.MA. Boxing is just as bad if not worse. Yeah, that was like the definition of an egregious score card, right? Like, again, I didn't watch it close enough to confirm that for myself personally. But every time I looked up, like, you know, we're at a bar

over here in Thailand. you know, a bunch of Irish people. We were in an Irish pub, right? So, you know, they're just going nuts. And, you know, they're yelling on my ears. So you can pay attention to the fight. Yeah. So, yeah, so, you know, I looked up every now.

But every single time I looked up, like Amanda was killing her, it seemed like. But, yeah, anyway, they got amazing promotion. So there is a silver lining in this whole thing. Yeah, that was awesome. And like I said, you know, good for them. They put on a crazy good show. And listen, if you weren't happy with Tyson and Jake Paul, if you tuned in and got to watch the women's fight, dude,

how could you really be disappointed? That was a freaking war. Like, that was awesome. So, you know, just take that. Just go and say, hey, you got to see an awesome, awesome women's fight. And then, you know, you got to watch Mike Tyson dance around for, you know, 16 minutes or whatever, it was 8, 2 minute rounds. So 16 minutes, then I'm like moving around and Jake Paul not doing much of anything.

No one get carried on on a stretcher. And Mike Tyson made $20 million. Good for him. There you go. Yeah, can't hate on it too much. Look, you got to give props to Jake Paul. Like, whatever you think about him as a boxer, the motherfucker knows how to make money. He does.

He knows how to sell a fight. He knows how to sell an event. I don't even call it a fight. He knows how to sell an event. I mean, 70 million people, like, get out of here, pro. That's insane. Yeah, I mean, and I think, because Dana said this last night, and I agree, like, let's be honest. Mike Tyson was the bigger draw, but who got Mike Tyson involved?

Like, Jake Paul got Mike Tyson involved. Like, that's, you know, good for him. Like, he knew that was going to get people to watch. And Netflix got $60 million or $65 million, whatever it was the total number. How could they not be happy? I mean, that's a huge amount of people watching one event. So, again, if you're disappointed, then you already had your expectations set too high because I had zero. My expectation was I didn't want to fight the end with Mike Tyson being stretched out of the ring.

That was my scariest expectation. That didn't happen. Win. It's a win. There you go. Yeah. Yep. But we did get some good fights the next night.

Yeah. Pretty good. UFC 309, I think. I don't know if it was pretty good. It was all right. It wasn't a great card, if I'm being honest. I didn't think it was great. But let's talk about.

Let's talk about the main event. Of course, John Jones goes out and beats Stevie Miochus, third round finish, spinning back kick to the body. Of course, we know Steve A retired afterwards. Hindsight's 2020, Matt, and I don't want to play that game. Like, I don't want to play that game because you and I said, going into it, that Steepay had a real shot. Like, Steepay is a dangerous dude, good wrestling, big power.

But the fight started, and Steepay did look slower. You know, he looked like he had been out for three and a half years. looked 42. He looked slower. His reaction time wasn't as much. There was a couple of times he did punches and he always seemed to be just a few seconds behind John, which is not something Steepa would have done a few years ago. He got taken down the first round. Now again, he survived. Credit to him for, I mean, a lot of guys would not have survived that when John's dropping elbows on you. Most of those guys would have gone out. That's incredible. But Steepa was never really in the fight. It was almost like John, I don't use the word Kerry that's insulting, but it's

almost like John just didn't, you know, he was just kind of peppering away, kind of picking away at him. And then when he saw the opening in the third round, he put him away. But yeah, I mean, it is what it is, man. I mean, I get kind of like that. It's like I don't, I thought, I thought Steve A would do better than he did, but he didn't. So, you know, it is what it is. Well, I gave Steve A round two.

And yeah, I think one judge might have gave him round two. most of the people where I was watching at gave him round two and as bad as he looked physically, not physically, but athletically. And I mean, like you say, he looked at his age also. I say he looked past his age, to be honest. You know, straight legs, like, you know, no hate on steep A. It just looked like, you know, he just doesn't have it, right, at this point.

And why should he? He came in to, you know, challenge himself at the highest level with the greatest ever. And, you know, didn't pass the challenge. But to me, you know, everybody's, you know, this might be a little controversial, I guess. But to me, it almost takes away a little bit from John Jones. Like not because, I mean, he beat him almost flawlessly. Like I said, I gave Steve A round two. But, you know, it wasn't like some, you know,

demolition or anything. It was almost flawless for John Jones. But it didn't, like I wasn't amazed by John Jones beating that version of Steepay. Yeah, I know what you mean. No, I know, I know exactly what you mean. Like, that wasn't John beating. And that was the concern, right? Like, that was the concern all the time. Like, you're picking a fighting against Stepe, a guy who's been out for three and a half years, he's 42. Yes, he is the greatest of all time. But, you know, Fador is one of the greatest of all time. want to see him fight either right now. Like I don't, somebody joked, somebody joked after Ngano one. They're like, where's Fador at him? Like, don't even, don't even mention that. Like, don't even

bring that up. Let's not, dude, let's not go there. I love Fador. I love Stepe, but at some point, you got to stop. And, um, yeah, that was, that was, that was the concern, right? Like, if you go out there and beat and, and, and dominate a 42-year-old Stepe, what are you really gaining? And yes, he does have a, I know, maybe 10 years from now, people aren't going to think about it and say, well, you know, he has a winner of Stepe. That's what matters. But, It's just like, you know, it's just like when you say like a disqualification. That's looking at John's record and seeing the loss to Matt Hamill and thinking it's legitimate. It's not.

He didn't really lose that fight. He got disqualified. He was winning. The win on his record over Steepi Miochich is legitimate. He has a win over Steepi Miochich. But he also has a win over a 42-year-old, almost four years away from the sport for, you know, Stepe Miochich. That's different than Steep A in 2018, 2017 when he was in his prime. And the Stepe that, to me,

looked like he didn't really want to be there. Like he's there for the challenge and maybe the money. I don't know what his motivations were exactly. But it didn't look to me like he was really wanted to be there. Maybe that was John too. Maybe I'm taking too much away from John. Maybe Steepa was all about it, motivated. And then soon as John threw the first punch, he's like, okay, I actually don't want

to be doing this, you know, maybe he should give John more credit there. But to me, it just looked like Steepay just didn't want to be there. He just wasn't present in the moment, like didn't, wasn't, didn't have that fire under his ass. And he was just kind of like, you know, if I beat you, I beat you. If I don't, I don't. That's the way it felt to me. Is there, just emotionally. Is there any, and maybe I'm reading too much into this, Matt, but is there any party that feels like maybe John let him hang around a little longer just to kind of draw out to fight?

Because it felt like, like, when he took him down and had those elbows landing in the first round, it was so close. to being stopped a couple of times where he was hammered away. And then the second round, he just kind of stood on the outside and just kind of picked at him a little bit. Didn't really, didn't look like he was really doing much of anything. And then it got into the third round. It was actually late in the third. I was like four minutes in.

He threw that spinning back kick. And it was a really cool finish, of course. Spitting back kick to the body is a cool finish. But it's almost like, you know, like we say like, you know, it's like the Mayweather thing. Like, did Connor really go 10 rounds with Floyd Mayweather? Or did Floyd allow Connor to go 10 rounds? Does that make sense? Yeah, I don't think there's, I don't really go subscribe to that theory personally.

Like, I think just when you're that good, like, you want to be flawless and you're not in a rush, like you're patient. And you're just like, you know, you're that much better than someone. You can feel it. It's like, why take that big risk to throw the big thing? Like, I'm going to dominate this person regardless. So, you know, let's be calculated about it. And that's part of the enjoyment is figure out that little puzzle. How do we get that perfect shot, which Jones finally found, right?

And it's not like Steve A, even regardless of his athletic prime. It's not like he's an amateur fighter or anything. I mean, this is one of the greatest ever. Like, you know, that little opening to catch on him like that is not just going to present itself right away. So John had a lot of data to download, had a lot of calculations to make in his head, took his time, was patient with it and found it. in terms of fight IQ, I mean, it was one of the, you know, an absolutely insanely great performance. Again, my kind of knock on it was like, you know,

the athleticism, you know, I don't know if it was because John is so much more athletic than everybody or if Steve A's actually declined that far. You know, because John could do that to a lot of people who are in their prime, too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is what it, like I said, I mean, it is what it is. I was hoping for a different fight, but, you know, that was the fight.

That was the fight. I think a lot of people thought we would see, and I wasn't shocked that it played out that way because John Jones is that good and Steve Ayes is 42. I just thought, hey, there's a chance. Steve Bay's tough. Heavy weights tend to, you know, age a little slower. A lot of great heavy weights are 38, 39. I mean, that's, you know, a lot of great heavy weights are right around that age and stay around that age when they're in their peak. So I thought maybe we'd get a better fight.

We didn't. John was pretty much dominant from start to finish. I know, like I said, like the second round is almost like he kind of like taking the whole take your foot off the gas thing. It's almost like he was just kind of like measuring and figuring things out. And then, you know, he figured it out and unleashed it in the third round and got to finish. I don't think, I don't think John's legacy takes a hit because, you know, I mean, this is a fight steepe wanted he wanted to put it in like basketball terms. I'm not a big basketball guy. But like, I'm sure there were NBA finals where Michael Jordan beat a team.

that got to the finals that wasn't actually the best team in the world. They just kind of like won and got there. And then he dominated them. Does that make Michael Jordan any less good that he beat a lesser team? No, that's just part of the sport. Lesser team got there. Maybe not the best team got there that year. So it is what it is.

But now, we got to talk about the aftermath, Matt, because, you know, we talked about it beforehand. John was openly saying, like, he didn't want to fight Tom Aspinall. He wanted to fight Alex. And then all fight week, it just kind of like kept coming and kept coming. And John kind of kept changing his story. He went from, I don't want to fight Tom Aspinon. I want to fight Alex Pereira.

And then he said, Tom's an asshole. And I don't want to let him fight me. And then after the fight, he kind of hinted at Tom Aspinall. He's like, hey, if you pay me enough money, we'll give me the fight you want. And then he goes back and says, well, I really want to fight Alex. And if you want me to fight Perra, you want me to fight Aspinol, it's got to be fuck you money. He wants big money. I don't know.

In your heart of hearts, Matt, do you think we ever see John Jones, Tom Aspinall? Man, that's a really good question. I'm just not sure. Because here's the thing. Like John, like we've talked about this before. He's seen in this like you see. He's the greatest of all time. No one's going to debate that for a long time other than, you know, the PD accusation stuff.

Like that's the argument against John. There's not really another argument, right? He's the greatest of all time. As long as he stays undefeated, it doesn't matter who he fights. And he knows this. It doesn't matter who he fights. If he stays undefeated, he's going to remain the goat. If he goes out and gets defeated, then people are going to have arguments and questions.

So in terms of him deciding his next five, I guess that's probably where he's a little bit torn on because he's like, do I need, I don't need to take this big risk. But of course, like the pressure all around them is go take the big risk and fight Tom. We want to see it. And my opinion, it's like, look, if you want to, if you want to stay the UFC heavyweight champion, you have to fight Tom Aspinall. He is the rightful person to fight next. If you want to make money, give up the belt and accept that you're going to be criticized and accept that, you know, there's going to be a lot of questions or at least a certain faction of people asking the question if you duck Tom Aspinall until retirement. I mean, I think the problem. And I said this before.

Like, I don't, like, John and Alex Prayer is the bigger fight. We agreed on that. Like, that is a bigger fight. The problem is, and you said this last week, and I agree, that, you know, John would be a overwhelming favorite to beat Alex Prayer. Stylistically, a striker against his grappling. You think about him taking down Steepa, who was actually like a Division I wrestler, and Alex Pereer is certainly not that.

You know, like, stylistically, that is a much more favorable matchup. And so he would go into that fight. Let's just say, I'm making them numbers here. He's got a five to one favorite. I don't think that's like out of the realm of possibilities. He'd be a five to one favorite over Alex. And if he goes out there and just absolutely demolishes Alex prayer, would anyone really be shocked? I think a big part of the reason everyone wants the Aspinall fight is because Aspinall is 31.

He's fast. He's big. He's strong. He's a legit heavyweight. Again, I think you could argue he is the best heavyweight in the sport right now, regardless of John or Francis or whoever else is out there. and part of greatness, part of that is, I know John brought this up and he's not wrong.

He's like everyone wants to see me lose. It's not that everyone wants to see you lose, John. It's everyone wants to see you challenged. And it's almost like when you, it's almost like when John kind of sleptwalk through Tiago Santos. Does anyone really think that John Jones is not a better fighter than Tiago Santos? I think we all would agree he is. But he just wasn't into that fight and he just kind of like,

he just kind of like sleptwalk through the fight. And it ended up being a split decision and really ugly. fight. Same thing with Anthony Smith. Same thing with Dominic Reyes. It's just you see like John just didn't seem interested and it was an ugly fight and yes he won but they were not great performances and I actually thought Dominic Reyes won that fight. Very close but I thought he won it. But like Tom is dangerous. Tom is a legit challenge. Tom, I mean you want to fight Francis. Francis was a challenge. So that's, I think that's where that's where the disconnect happens, right? because it's not that we don't want to see Pereira.

It's not that we don't want to see this huge fight. It would be a massive fight. Now, I'm not faulting him for going for the bigger fight. But I'm saying that the reason why people are so up in arms about this is because, yes, it's a big fight, great fight, all that stuff. But you're going to be a five to one favorite to win. And I would be personally shocked if Alex Pereer won that fight. If he invites Tom Aspinall, I wouldn't be shocked to see Tom win that fight. But that's kind of the point.

that is exactly the point right that's exactly the point yeah that's a great that's actually a really great point too because yeah like you said the biggest challenge from a outsider looking in is tom aspenall the question is does john need the biggest challenge still like does that do anything for him having the biggest challenge again you know when we're talking when we're looking back 20 years from now. And I think a lot of that's going to be dependent on what Tom does in the future, right, which we have no idea. And I think that's John's point, right?

He's like, we don't know what this guy's going to be. We've seen guys come and go a million times that we're hyped to be everything. And, you know, it's, well, what if he goes in and beats Tom Aspinall? And then, you know, Tom goes on a seven-fight losing streak or something ridiculous, right? You know, like, oh, he was nobody to start with. You know, then John, I think that's kind of his point. He's like, you know, I'm just wasted my time. So I actually get where John's coming from.

You know, the fact is we live in the present moment. That's what the UFC has built on is you're as good as your last fight, at least early UFC fan base, at least, right? That's how it operates. You're as good as your last fight. Right now, John's the greatest. Tom is able to put that together. He prides himself on putting it.

to get out of the biggest fights. And I'm going to argue now, I'm going to push back on you a little bit, or everybody a little bit. They say that Alex Pereira is the biggest fight, and of course it's a gigantic fight. I'm starting to wonder if Tom Aspinall wouldn't be as big of a fight at this point with all of the, with everything, you know, all the hype, you know, around it at this point. like what's the what's the step like what's the spread there like how much more do you get out of Alex Pereira pay-per-view sale wise

promotion wise than Tom Aspenall I'm not sure it's as high as I thought it was before it's funny you say I was just getting ready to say here's where I would this is where I'm kind of changing my mind a little bit while I still believe Alex Pereira is a bigger fight in theory in theory I think this last week kind of changed things a little bit because the reaction that Tom got that press conference, you know,

people out, every time Aspernel's name got mentioned, people went nuts. Now, again, I know that's a small, you know, that's, you know, whatever, 5,000, 10,000 people in New York. It's not the entire MMA universe. I understand that. But it did seem like there was a bit of a change. I was kind of impressed by, like, how much people got behind Tom Aspel. Now, we got to be honest, Matt, like, as great as John Jones is. And, again, I say he's the greatest of all time all the time.

he is in my opinion. But he's not, he's not George St. Pierre. He's not like this super beloved figure. John is a very, you know, kind of hot and cold guy. Like some people love John Jones, but there's a lot of people who don't like John Jones. He is not this universally beloved fighter. So when you're John Jones, as great as you are, you're not Michael Jordan. You're not, you know, he's a little bit more like LeBron. Like LeBron has a lot of haters. Like LeBron has a lot of haters. He has a lot of fans, but he has a lot of haters. He's not Jordan. He's more like LeBron, where he's kind of like he has his fans, but he also has his detractors. And

that Aspinall cloud looming overhead all week, I'm kind of like, man, maybe we're turning a corner here because it feels like people are really on board. Now again, it's a microcosm of a very small, smattering of people. Maybe that's not the whole world. But I was going to bring that up because I was like,

man, it kind of feels like we're turning the corner a little bit like where this Aspinall thing would be big. It feels that. To your point, look, John is a very easy guy to dislike. He gives you a lot of reasons to dislike him. Like he has an aura about him. Of course, you know, all the stories outside of the octagon,

hitting a pregnant woman and running and the drugs, the PD accusations. I mean, he's given us a lot of reasons to dislike him. The way he speaks. Just a lot of things, man. and I think like Tom Aspinall, his personality, you know, he's not, you know, a Dan Hardy shit talker or a Tito Ortiz. You know, he's not Connor McGregor, like one of those guys. But it seems to feed right into John's style.

They're sort of style of pushing each other's buttons. It seems to me like it feeds right in. Alex is not going to feed into that. Yeah, obviously like Alex has his own style, right? Where he's stoic and, you know, just a serial killer look. A little bit, I like to think we're a little bit similar in that regard personally, but, you know, I don't want to put myself up there with him. But I think there's some similarities there.

Where Tom, I think it's like a better synergy with the way they kind of push each other's buttons. Welcome aboard Air Canada. vacation here we come. Whoa, is this economy? Free beer, wine, and snacks. Sweet. Fast free Wi-Fi means I can make dinner reservations before we land. And with live TV, I'm not missing the game.

It's kind of like I'm already on vacation. Nice. Air Canada. Nice travels. Wi-Fi available to AeroPline members on equipped flights. Sponsored by Bell. Conditions apply. SeeairCanada.com. The other thing I'll say,

this is me playing conspiracy theorist here, Matt. I think John is actually a really smart guy. Now, does he do some really stupid things? He does some really stupid things, but he's a very smart guy. I can't help but wonder, because we said last week, like,

all the stuff he was saying about Tom, like we understood it, but at the same time, don't say it. Just, I'm fighting steepy. I'll worry about Tom or whatever comes next. Like the PR thing we talked about. Like, just don't play into it. And he kept playing into it and play.

I'm wondering, like, John's not dumb. Did John, is there any chance John purposely did this to get like people hyped up and pushing Tom the narrative? Because now he's put the UFC in a position where he said, pay me a lot of money and I'll go fight Tom Aspinall. Now, maybe in the back of John Jones' mind, because I think you said this and I agree. I think John Jones absolutely believes that a shadow of a doubt he would go out and beat Tom Aspinall. And to that point, if you're asking me right now, who would I pick? I told you, I don't pick against John Jones. I think John's Jones can beat Tom Aspinall.

Do I think it's a harder, much more dangerous fight? Yes. But do I think I'd still probably end up picking John Jones? Probably, because it's John Jones. But I wonder, like, John Jones isn't just positioning himself in the right place right now. Because, think about this. John has said, I want you to pay me fuck you money to go fight Tom Aspinall. If the fight doesn't happen now, we're all going to have our eyeballs on Dana and the UFC

to say, well, why didn't you just pay him? He said he'd do it. If you paid him, why won't you pay him? You know? You know what? That's a really great point. Yeah, that's a great point because he's, yeah, he might be smart enough to just be playing that game where he's like,

I'm not fighting them. Fuck all you guys. And then that gets all the fans and media fired up, say, oh, he's fucking ducking. And last thing Dana wants is a ducking world champion, greatest of all time that he's hyped up how many. many times. This is the greatest of all time.

And now everything that he said about John Jones is getting torn down because John is playing the ducking part. That's a genius move. I'll tell you, if you're, if you are correct there. Yeah. So, and like I said, John's put the ball back in their court. He told the UFC, pay me a bunch of money and I'll do it. I mean, now, you know, if it doesn't happen, we can all say, why didn't you just?

pay him. He said pay him and he'd do it. So pay him. Let's do it. Let's see it. I'm just saying, I'm throwing out that idea. Like, because I don't, I, and I know you said this and I agree. John's not afraid anybody. John's not scared to fight anybody, but he's saying, hey, you want me to fight this guy that I don't think really deserves it? Pay me a boatload of money and I'll go do it. Now it's in the EOC's hands. They have to pay him a boatload of money. Yeah, and look, if he goes into all this media and press conferences, says, yeah, I'm fighting him next. Then he doesn't have a negotiation, right?

He has no leverage. Yeah, I think you might be right spot on with that. And that never even crossed my mind. That's a very intelligent move by him. Because, yeah, if he goes in and says, yeah, you know, Tom basketball is next. I'm doing this to prove I'm the best, blah, blah, blah. Then Dana says, cool, easy job. We got you.

We got you on lock. But now he's coming in saying the exact opposite, saying fuck Tom, mask but all don't need to fight this guy whatever and Dana's got to show that he's in control right he said we're the UFC we make the best fights happen now he's got to live up to his end of the deal yeah I'm just saying like I think there's a world where that's happening right now where John is just like I like this conspiracy theory I'm just saying now he actually as you said he doesn't have any leverage him he's like give me Tom Aspen I'm going to beat his ass let's go well your contract's what it is,

you're going to fight him for the money you already make it. Right now, he's like, I'm, you know, I don't really have any interest, but if you want to pay me a whole bunch of money, I'll go do it. Now, like I said, if it doesn't happen, everyone can point the finger at Dana in the U.S.

and say, why didn't you make it happen? He said he would do it if you paid him. Yeah, put the ball in their court. Very intelligent, actually. Because, I mean, look, they're used to us fighters, be former, but when I say us, fighters is, that's our,

that's how every fighter, is 90% 9% are like dude just give me the next guy let's go I don't give a fuck pay me whatever let's just fight I'm gonna prove myself blah blah blah and John's like fuck you I prove myself I don't need to fight anybody fuck you pay me I like it I like it a lot

so let me ask you I know this is you know we didn't discuss this beforehand this wasn't a planned topic or anything but right now in your head I know where you know right now based of what you saw on Saturday night John Jones fights Tom Aspinall you know within the next let's say year Let's put it in like a 12-month range because it could be that long.

Who would you pick, John Jones or Tom Aspinall? Man. See, I'm not quite as hyped about John Jones as everybody else is. I mean, obviously he's done ridiculous, amazing things. He's absolutely, you know, outside of the, if you remove PED accusations, he's the greatest without question. But, man, I think. he has problems with those bigger

longer guys like you stuff said showed it and I think Tom can get it done the problem is I haven't seen Tom challenge the way that you know John's going to challenge him you know you know it's not going to be an easy fight if Tom wins so can Tom

deal with that challenge I don't know I'll leave it at that for now because if it happened then I'll break it down a little more yeah I mean like I said I have a hard time ever picking against John Jones, but there's a reason why everyone wants to see it because Tom Aspinall is legitimately a threat.

And Tom Aspinall is 31. He's young. He's big. He's strong. He's hungry. Yeah. It's just like I said. He's a very interesting matchup.

And I mean, the only guy that I could think, he's faster than you stops him was, I think. He's the only guy that has the range and the speed to deal with John Jones. And I'll tell you I'm not trying to turn in Like I'm not trying to knock the guy This is not an insult

I'm just saying like If Francis was still around I'd pick Tom to beat Francis And Francis was the fight everyone Wanted to see for John So like I think Tom might be the best heavyweight In the sport

But I still have a hard time Picking against John Jones Because John Jones is very smart He's not a dumb guy And we haven't really seen Tom wrestle a lot So like could he deal with John's wrestling That inside tribute on Steepet was Nasty

That was a nasty inside trip when he talked chucked him to the ground he does that to Aspinall can Aspinall survive that on the ground with Tom on John on top of him throwing elbows Again it's but I don't like Real quick real quick

It wasn't an inside trip All right It was an outside trip Outside trip, excuse me Outside trip, yes you're right But if he bought Alex Yeah you're right If he does what if he took

Alex Pereer down the way he took Steepa down That fight doesn't make it out of the first round he takes Tom down can Tom get out of there can Tom power his way through I don't know I don't know I don't know So that's what makes it that's what I said makes it a little bit harder of a fight to break down because he's uh We haven't seen Tom in those situations with a fucking John Jones you know So it makes it a hard fight to break down but that's kind of the allure of the fight too right Because you know half of it is can John deal with a guy like Tom Asper all young fast hungry guy but also, you know, can Tom deal with John Jones, right?

Like, we haven't seen him. Like, he's demolished everyone so far. Yeah. We'll see. Maybe it was, I hope we see it. I really do. Like, that's the one. I think everyone wants to.

I just, I love it, man. I hope it happens. And like I said, man, again, smart on John's Crape. That's what he's doing. I don't know. That's what he's doing. I'm just theorizing. But I think there's a world where I think that's what he's doing right now,

where he's like, okay, I put the ball in your court, UFC. Now it's up to you. you know so pay him there's no way you're not right on that I think you're you're spot on I never never would have thought of that I think that's got to be spot on and you know

any pure fan is I have a theory and I don't know how the world works society and shit because I'm a I'm a dumb fighter who lives in his own little bubble but when the pure fans the true fans get excited about a fight

I think that starts emanating over into the mainstream or, you know, the people that don't pay as much attention, right? And this is a fight that pure fans are going to be a billion percent stoked about. And I think that word is going to spread pretty quickly. And I think that that's why I think this fight becomes as big as the Alex fight. I mean, it's not bigger. You might, I mean, I think this week changed the discourse. I really do.

I think this week changed the discourse because a week ago, I think Alex Perra was absolutely the bigger fight. Now, the way people reacted to Tom Aspinall, I think it could be as big, and I think you're right. Like, you hype it up, you build it up the right way, maybe the greatest heavyweight. I'm not saying it's really that way, but, you know, we market a fight. Biggest heavyweight fight, not big John Jones' greatest challenge, so on and so forth. Who knows, man, that might be the biggest fight. You know, that might be the biggest fight the EFC can promote right now. We always say about outside of Connor.

That might be the one. Yeah, so I'm ready to find out. That's all I would say. Because, you know, I don't know. I think the peer fans, like me and you, we are not as stoked about him fighting Alex Pereira. Really a 185er that went up to 205 that's now going to go up to heavyweight. That's really a striker that we're going to, we have to assume.

You know, we don't know, but we assume. I mean, Israel's Adasania took him down, you know? John Jones will take him down if he wants. If he decides to take him down, the second thing that it crosses his mind, he will. And does Alex survive like Stepe did? It's just hard to see, right? It's hard to imagine a world that Alex Pereira survives around on bottom of John Jones. Yeah.

And this is coming from the biggest Alex Pereira fan in the fucking world. Absolutely. I 10010% agree. I 100% agree. That's what I said. Like, John Jones would be a massive favorite in one fight. and he would be, you know, favored maybe, but not, you know, there would be a lot of questions could he get through Tom Aspinall?

I don't have that. I think I, I, yes, Alex Perr is a monster. Could he catch him and beat him? Sure, he could. But if you were asking me, like, if you were putting my money down, bet my house on whoever I'm betting the house on John Jones to beat Alex Perra. I'm not putting my house down to watch John Jones. I think, you know, would I pick him right now?

Sure, probably just because I don't pick against John Jones. But give me, you know, give me a month to really break down footage and watch video and things. Maybe it might change about, like I said, I think Tom Aspinel is a monster. So, yeah, like I said, I just want to see it, man. I just hope we see it. Like I said, I don't fault anyone for going for the money fight. I don't fault anyone for being a prize fighter because that's what you are, a prize. You should seek out the biggest prize.

But I think there's a big prize to fight Tom Aspinall. I think they're really, I think you might be right. Like, it could be as big if not bigger. And if you, you know what Pereira, John Jones kind of reminds me of was like a Dan Hardy GSD. I don't know why I brought Dan Hart twice this podcast. but, like, that never happens. But, you know, where, like, he's got that left hook. And that's your chance.

You get up, except GSP doesn't finish guys on the ground much than John does. But, like, your 99.9% chance getting taken down unless you land at left hook. And it's not for us pure fans. It is not as exciting to see a fight where a guy has one path to victory. Yeah. You're right. You're absolutely right. Aspinall, I think he's got a lot of ways

when he's good ground game, big dude, strong, knockout power, fast. I just, yeah, that's the one I want to see. That's the one I hope we see. And I think you made a great point. You give it the right promotion. You give it some time. This might not just be as big.

It could be bigger. And I can't imagine, even if John beats Tom Aspinall, like I give Tom, like I think it's going to, It's a big challenge for John, like during the fight. Like, it's a challenging fight. Like, it's not going to be a walk-through fight. Most likely, you never know, right?

Because it is fucking John Jones and the son of a bitch walks through people that he shouldn't walk through. You know, so. But, like, in our heads, what we're seeing, I'm sure you see the same thing. Tom Aspinall, John Jones, they're going to actually battle. With Alex Pereira, I love the guy, amazing, Hall of Famer already fucking, what, 10 fights into his career, his UFC career. I don't see that as a challenge. Like, John has a clear, obvious game plan, and he's pretty good at doing a fucking game plan that he needs to do. Yeah, I agree.

I totally agree. And like I said, I think the world knows. But again, I really do. I've talked myself into it, Matt. I think that's what John's doing right now. I think he's playing the Alex Prayer card and pay me thing because now he's set it up. He's put it back on the UFC saying, Dana, it's in your court, buddy. Pay me and I'll do it.

And now if it doesn't happen, the whole world's way, Dana, why didn't you just pay him? He said he would do it. If you paid him, pay him. Again, John's not a dumb guy. Hey, he might be even smarter than we thought because that's very intelligent way to go about it. I like it. Data is the type to get it done. So let's see if they get it done.

Real quick before we get out of here, I do want to mention, of course, Michael Chandler suffered a pretty lopsided loss to Charles Oliver. Not quite the fight, I think, a lot of people expected. I mean, you know, Charles is a monster. And I think Charles fighting a tactical game plan was actually super intelligent. Didn't go out there and just start banging away with Michael Chandler. And Michael, of course, Chandler came back in that fifth round,

landed about 19 shots behind the head. What in the fuck was? the referee doing. That was some really, really bad refereeing. But in the end, Charles Olive Vegas, I got to, listen, I'm not trying to kick the guy wise down. I like Michael Chandler. I think you know that. I've known Michael Chandler since he was like, the

day he decided to do M.MA, leave him in Missouri wrestling. I've known Michael Chandler. A lot of respect for him, but we can't not ask the question, like man, how rough of a couple years has been for Michael? Because he takes two years off to fight Connor, never gets to fight Conner, comes back, maybe he has a chance to get right back in a title contention and ultimately

loses a pretty lopsided fight. Now, Chandler's such an entertaining guy. There's still other matchups out there for him. I don't think it's going to be the Conner fight. I think that ship has sailed. Conner's not fighting. But it's kind of, I feel for the guy, man, to go through everything you went there and then come back and lose a fight like that, man.

It's been a rough couple years for Michael Chandler. Yeah, he'd been real. I thought Charles looked himself, like, the way he's fought many, many fights that we've seen. He looked like Charles Olivera, looked great. I thought Chandler looked slower. I thought he looked less explosive. He hasn't changed really, you know, strategy-wise, anything. I found the fight not as entertaining as other people did.

I had, like, people texting me after, like, what a fucking epic fight? I was like, what? Because he jumped on his back and Chandler jumped and smiled while he was doing it. Like, what are you talking about? You know, like you said, Charles fought strategically, intelligently. and, you know, just put a beating on him, really. I thought he was the only knock was that Charles didn't finish him. I thought Charles probably could have finished him,

maybe held back a little bit or played a little too safe maybe. Gamler had great back defense, I guess, you know, didn't get choked. But, yeah, it's like, where does Chandler go from here? Because that was, I didn't see a lot out of Chandler in that fight that made me excited. you know, for his next thing. You know, it's almost like he needs, like, a tune-up fight now. Remember, remember when Dustin fought Connor the second time, like, after they fought a Fed

away, like when Connor came back and they fought, remember in that first round, like, Connor had a couple of moments where he tagged Porier and you're like, ooh, this is going to be a great when then Connor, you know, Dustin ends up knocking him out. That was when they were like super friendly and Connor's being all nice and everything. Gets him, knocks him out. It was like, you know, Connor had moments. Connor had a couple moments in that fight where he tagged Porre. We were like, ooh, this is great.

The third fight, I know that it ended with the broken leg, but that fight wasn't close. Dustin was absolutely walking him down and just dog walking him across the octagon. That's kind of what it felt like. It's like almost somehow between the last time they fought in 2021 or 2022, whatever it was, and now it's almost like Charles has continued to be one of the elite, great, best lightweights in the world. And it's almost like Chandler was a step behind him this time. I don't know if it's age. I don't know if it's the time off.

But it did like the last one. I know it only lasted around in like 19. but it was a war that, you know, around the 19 seconds, this one wasn't. It wasn't a fight. The only thing that made it compelling, and I agree with you, I didn't think it was like, it wasn't great. It was just, you know, I mean, credit to Charles, he looked great doing it. But the only thing that made it exciting was Chandler having that brief moment in the final

round where it looked like maybe he was going to come back now again. Referee probably should have paused the fight after like the 28th shot to the back of the head. But it is what it is. Charles survived and got there. And even then, Charles still came back and took his back like in that round. So, yeah, it was weird, but like, do you know what I'm talking about? It kind of seemed like between the second and third Conner fight. It's almost like Dustin stayed as good.

It's like Connor lost this step. That's kind of what it felt like here a little bit. Yeah, I think it's a great point. And I'm going to reiterate what you just said about the referee, like that motherfucker. Is that my brother? It was Keith Peterson. Keith Peterson. What in the fuck was he doing?

I mean, he was literally two feet away watching him hit the back of the head. That was the worst refereeing that I can remember this year. I mean, we see bad refereeing all the time. But holy shit, that was bad. Like, I thought for, like, if he knocked him out right there from a shot to the back of the head, like, like, that changes Oliver's life. Like, you know, we talked about last time. You said to win, probably may not get him a title shot. I thought, I don't know, the feeling afterward was he's probably the next in line, right?

Am I wrong here? No, I think you're right. I think you're right. This, you know, this changes his entire light. If he gets hurt by one of those back-to-the-head shot, one of the 20 that you're two feet away from watching him do while you're sitting there smoking a cigarette or something. I mean, this was just insane.

So either way, he got through it. I'm glad he did. And, yeah, I hope he gets the title fight. off of this and you know i guess it's going to be armin and islam and when are they fighting i think january it's probably going to be probably going to be january in l.a yeah cool because i love watching charles man like what a fucking warrior what a martial artist that's what i love about him he's just good everywhere bring something to the table every second of the fight and uh it looked like you said it looked like he was more strategic than usual and

fought intelligently, patient, very high level. So, like, when I said, like, UFC 309 wasn't a bad card, that fight, I'm impressed by watching that level of martial arts work on a dangerous guy like Michael Chandler. Yeah, I just, I don't know where Chandler goes from here because he's not going to get Conner. And now, did you hear Dana over the weekend, like, on late 2025, late 2025, now I'm like, can we just, we keep pushing the date back,

early 2025, now it's late 20? Can we just say never? Just say never. Just like just or just say we don't know because he's never fighting again. I know he's never going to say that because the hint of Connor is enough to keep people interested. But like, come on now. Now he's saying late 20, 25. Matt Brown, I bow to you.

You are the prophet. You were right about this all along. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah. Where does Chandler go? You know, that's a tough question because this three in a row, right? Yeah, and, you know, I mean, overall, he's what, two and four in the UFC now or whatever it is? Like, it's not a, I mean, he has the winner of Dan Hooker, which looks better now because Hooker's been on a bit of a run.

But the winner, the winner, the Tony Ferguson, like, it was a great knockout, but I think we kind of know where Tony's that in his career. And, you know, he lost to Porre, lost the gauge. He lost Oliver twice. Like, you know, like, Chandler's still super entertaining. And, like, he called, like, you mentioned Max Holloway. What interest would Max Holloway have in that fight? Like that doesn't do any, like Oliver and Holloway. If Oliver's going to fight again before the title, him and Holloway would be a hell of a fun fight.

Yeah, because that's the problem now that Chandler has to fight someone. Like, what is he going to be ranked? He's probably not going to be top 10 right after this. I mean, probably right outside or right to tail into that. So, like, guys like maybe Darius or Moikano. And, I mean, Moikano's on the rise. Moikano would have no reason to fight him right now. I know what I'd like to see a guy you're familiar with and I know this is like people are going to say it's a step down

dude do something like him and drew dober like him and dover would be fun yeah there you're something like that where you just know it's going to be an exciting fight and maybe this yes they need wins right they're not yeah they're not really you know top 10 title contenders at the moment but you know the win does a lot for either guy and we know it's going to be exciting. Yeah. Yeah, it's a tough situation to be in, right? Because there's going to be, like I said, there's a lot of guys. Like Chandler, the one thing, you know, you do got to say the silver line, he's like, yeah, he's got some losses, but he's only fought the top guys. Yeah.

Right? Like, that's all his losses are the, you know, top five in the world, right? So, you know, so it puts him in a funny situation because now these guys that are up there, they're like, dude, why do I need to risk it on this guy? And the guy's coming up, you know, they're going to look for the matchups that work grateful because it's not going to bring them up quite as much. So I think he's in a little bit of a limbo situation. And like you said, it's got to be someone that like a dober that needs a win.

I don't know, is he coming off a loss or win, but. I think he's coming off a loss. I can't remember. But like that style, like that style would be fun, you know, like. Yeah. Because that, well, that's what I was going to add to that. that it's got to be the right style too right you don't you don't need someone that's going to try to make a boring fight out of michael chanler because that's the cell of michael chanler is he is

exciting warrior and he's going to throw down it's going to be bloody knockdown battle would i be crazy and suggesting michael chandler versus patty pimbled would that be a crazy idea that was actually the first one that came to my mind like patty's like patty's a star and patty's a big name but Paddy's not quite to that, like, top level yet. That could be either Michael Chandler beats a rising star and Patty Pimbleau or Patty gets a win over and established starling Michael Chandler kind of vaults him up to the next line. I just throwing that as an idea.

The reason I crossed my mind first was that we said the star power. Like, you know, it does a lot for Patty star-wise to win. Maybe not a ton. Like, what's he right? He's like 12, 11, probably? Yeah, right. Like, we're 12, 13, somewhere around there. Yeah, it's not going to do a ton for him in that.

Like that might not be what pushes them into the top 10, but it gets that star power up and then the next guy, assuming the patty wins, now the next guy has got to be a top 10 guy. Yeah, so that was actually the first guy that came to my mind. I thought he had a fight coming up already, though. Nothing booked right now. So, you know, just an idea. Get the Not Quite Conner. Get the Not Quite Conner.

You can get Connor, get the Liverpool, Connor. And to be fair, that is a good promotional fight too, right? Like that's a fun one for them to talk back and forth about. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Well, Matt, obviously, you're going to be back in the States for next week. We'll be back talking about more stuff coming up. We're coming to the year.

But we didn't get a chance. We'll talk about next week. We didn't get a chance to talk about the new fight at UFC 310, Shafkat, Rakhanov, and Ian Machado, Gary. That's going to be a lot of fun. That one's booked now. That's a great matchup. So we'll talk more about that.

next week you're coming back from Thailand if people want to support you and check you out obviously you over there battling blob tang and all kinds of dick kicking contest so where can people throw you some support if they want to check you out while you're over in Thailand at I'm the Immortal Instagram and Twitter the Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook

check out the Creatine Gummies at Try underscore Create use code Immortal save 20% and yeah you check out me fighting Blot on Fight Circus. That's pretty cool. It was fun.

I had a great time. There you go. All right, folks. We'll be back next week. Matt will be back in the States. He'll be traveling back from Thailand. We'll be back with another show next week. Make sure you check us on all of your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify.

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