MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: UFC 295 Reaction, Early Stoppage in the Main Event and Matt Brown Offers Advice to Mackenzie Dern

Episode Date: November 14, 2023

The Fighter vs. The Writer returns with a new episode reacting to the fallout from UFC 295 where two new champions were crowned. UFC welterweight Matt Brown and MMA Fighting senior reporter Damon Martin discuss Tom Aspinall’s stunning first-round knockout win over Sergei Pavlovich and what likely comes next for him. Is there a chance Aspinall will get to fight Jon Jones or should he just give up that idea already? We’ll also discuss Alex Pereira becoming a two-division UFC champion in just his 11th MMA fight but did referee Marc Goddard make a mistake with his stoppage in the main event? Jiri Prochazka isn’t complaining but did the referee cost him the chance to make a comeback? Plus, Brown offers some sage advice to Mackenzie Dern after her knockout loss to Jessica Andrade and if she’s already hit the ceiling in her career after a 2-3 run in her past five fights in the UFC. All this and more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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What are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Support for this show comes from the Audible original, The Downloaded 2. Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever.

Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible original blockbuster, the downloaded. It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded

two, ghosts in the machine. Available now, only from Audible. Back to the fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, we are back after another big UFC pay-per-view. We have two new champions in the UFC now.

Dude, what a great card, huh? What a great night of fights. all five main card fights ended in a finish you can't beat that you cannot beat that that happened rare very rare and it was and all good too like all good fights yeah the only one i wasn't overly impressed with well androj impressed me but mackenzie durn looks so fucking terrible and i love mackenzie durn like i absolutely love i love her jih Tzu watching her fight but my God, her stand-up, just look. Oh, man, I can't even describe how bad it look. I love McKinsey Dern, but holy shit, that was bad.

She regressed. Like, she regressed. Like, if you go back and watch her last couple of fights before that, she didn't look that bad on the feed. Like, she didn't look great. She's never been, like, an incredible striker, but I don't think anyone expected her to be a great striker. But she regressed. And I know she switched coaches, like Jason Perillo wasn't there working with her anymore, but, man, and she needs to give him a call.

But I do, dude, you come back, please? Like, is there anything we can do here to get you back? Because that was just not, the striking was not good. It was, it was bad compared to where she was even like a year ago. Or I know a guy in Columbus, Ohio, they could teach her. There you go. Come out to Columbus, Ohio, learn some of here. She's a big beach girl, though.

I know that. She loves the beach. I ain't no beaches here in Ohio. I'll tell you that much for sure. Well, that's how, you know, that's one of those things. I'm not trying to, you convince her to go, come here or whatever but but look like you got to get away from the comforts of life when you getting ready for camp you know i see people like her um that train that way and they think that or

they think that way you know i like being next to the beach and that's where i want to have my training camp it's like he's like no you got to go through hell and training camp as well i actually love what tony ferguson is doing even though i'm not a big goggins fan at all i'm actually one of the few people, especially like hard-ass people, that's just not a fan of him. But I love that Tony Ferguson is doing that. Yeah, it's, I mean, I guess that's kind of the point of training, especially when you're getting ready for a fight,

as you can't be in your comfort zone, right? Like, that's kind of the opposite of what you want. You want to be out of your comfort zone. You want people to push you beyond your boundaries to get ready for a fight, especially when you're getting ready for a savage like Jessica and Josh. Yeah, well, people, I don't know why a lot of these fighters, they don't think this way. I think like when I get ready for a fight,

or at least, you know, I've had my best performances. Like my mindset was literally 24 hours of training. And that doesn't mean in the gym sweating 24 hours, but all 24 hours of the day are dedicated towards this fight. Like when I went on that seven fight win streak and I was getting close to the title, there wasn't a second that my mind wasn't focused on that fight. Like there was,

the thought of a beach was so foreign to me that I couldn't even, I had zero desire for that. So it just, it blows my mind that people kind of think that way where it's like, you know, when you go in there, you know, do you want to have even an inkling of thought that there was something more that you could have done? You know, like, like, why would you want to feel that way? Like there should be no logical reasoning whatsoever as to how this person could possibly have given more than you. Yeah. It was weird too because when McKenzie went out there, she got that head.

She got that headlocked takedown right away. And then she just kind of went away from her grappling and then just started kind of winging punches. And it was just like a really weird performance. And I know, listen, I do want to give, I do want to give both of them. And this is also for Jessica. like Jessica talked about it very openly before the fight. Obviously she had lost three in a row and she was going through a divorce. McKenzie had a very ugly situation with her ex going through a divorce and all kinds of bad stuff going on there.

And I always show a little bit of sympathy for that because when we talk about fighters, you know, we always talk about you guys as the toughest people in the world. You are. Like that's why I admire fighters so much. But you have lives too. Like you have real lives that get in the way of like training and your mind being right. And I would imagine divorce sucks. Like there's no easy way to get around that. Now, credits are just gone draw.

She did, but I'm saying like, I'm sure it's never easy. Yeah, I went through a divorce. I know what that is. So I get what they're going through. But that's no excuse. You know, you go in there and you get your 15 minutes and, you know, you just have to get your mind on that. You can't let other things infiltrate your mind.

That's all there is to it. And not saying that I did any better than anyone else, but, you know, I learned that lesson from that. But I want to ask all female fighters to do one thing for me. And I might even ask that you make this the headline. All female fighters, please stop with the fucking headarm throws. It's fucking garbage, unless you are like an expert at it. But then you still don't even land in a great position.

Like if you're Mark Coleman, that's a great position. because, you know, you're fucking UFC 12 and, you know, with Dan Severn, right? Like, you know, because you could, you could break a fucking bowling ball right there. You know, he's so strong, right? But get the fuck out of here with these goddamn head arm throws. Stop it. That's funny. That comment has made a lot with those fights, with women's fights,

a lot as the head and arm throw. It's so bizarre. And unless you're like Ronda Rousey, who is a judo expert, you know, like, you know, the way that they throw people, and that's not even a head and arm throw. It's a different kind of throw. They have an actual technical name for it, but like a hip throw. But, you know what I mean? That's different than grabbing the head and literally throwing them.

Like, it looks impressive for about two seconds. And then you realize you just gave up your back. Like, it's... If you even hit it. Like, you might just, you might not even, you might not even get them to the ground and you just gave up your back. Yeah. It's just a terrible technique. Except for their...

Don't get me wrong. There are, there's a guy I used to train with who could hit it on everybody. You know what I mean? Like it's his thing. It's the same for these guys that are going for guillotine. It's like, if that's your thing, it makes sense to go for it. But don't be jumping for guillotine if you're not a jiu-jitsu black belt that hits guillotine on people all the time.

Yeah. Yeah, it's, yeah, I agree. I mean, that is a common thing and I have seen it and it usually never works. Like the only time it ever works is when the other person doesn't know what to do to get out of it, which you should know how to do when you get to the UFC, I would hope. Yeah, it's weird. You should not to do the technique by the time you get to the UFC and I don't know where, like, where, who are these guys coaches? Like, who's not yelling at McKinsey Dern? Like, stop with the fucking head arm throw.

Have we, have we reached, like in all seriousness when it comes to McKinsey Dern? Because I like McKinsey very much. I've talked to her interviewer many, many times. She's a super nice person, incredibly talented fighter, and obviously a world-class jiu-jitsu person. But have we reached the ceiling with where she's going to go? Like she's two and three in her last five. She's, you know, flip-flop between wins and losses.

She's 30. So we can't sit here and say she's young, you know, she's got, you know, she's still got a lot of room to grow. Like she's been in the top 10 for a while now. And, you know, she's two and three in her last five, all these kinds. Like, have we reached the ceiling with McKinsey Dern? Like not saying that when I say ceiling, I mean, like she's a good top 10 fighter,

but she's never going to be like the number one, number two type hers. Like are we, have we reached the ceiling with McKinsey? I think it's up to her. I think she has a long way she can go still. I think she can get her stand up in order. I think she has the athleticism. But it's up to her whether she's going to commit to it, dedicate to it, commit to winning that battle.

Obviously, like she needs her stand up in a wrestling game. together. She has the jiu-jitsu. She needs to maintain that and, you know, keep making small improvements there. But her obviously, like for her to get to the top level, it's up to her if she decides to improve her stand-up and a wrestling. It's just going to be up to her. I think she has the potential to do it. It's just a matter of whether her and her team put in the work to do it. And I think she can. I mean, she's so talented. I think that's the frustrating part about it, because she is incredibly talented. We have seen her evolve and progress a little bit.

Like she got better in her striking, like when she fought Angela Hill. She looked better in that fight. But then this one, she comes out there and she looked like she had never struck before in her life. Like, she's out there just winging punches with Jessica Androz, which is like the worst possible game plan you can have against that little savage. Like, you know what I mean? It just seemed like a really odd way to approach it. And she had that one again, I know you hate the head arm, but she had that one take down early. And then she kind of just abandoned it.

Like, she didn't really go for the takedown again. And if you're, like, if there's one, if there's one thing I find frustrating about a lot of high, really high level jiu-jitsu people is that they don't know how to wrestle. Because if you could know how to wrestle and you combine that with your jihitsu, you're going to be pretty hard to stop. Like, that's why I always commended Jake Shields because Jake Shields wrestled first and then he did his jiu-jitsu. Like, he didn't go in there trying to grab guard and, you know, do things like that. He would wrestle you to the ground. And then he would start applying his jiu-jitsu. And obviously you see that now, there are jiu-jitsu guys out there who do that.

But I'm talking about the MMA level. Like that, if you're a high-level grappler, your next move should be learning how to do a fucking double-leg. You need to know how to do that. Gilbert Burns is a great example, like, of a guy that's done that very well. You know, to be fair, I remember they mentioned that on the, on during the play-by-play to Joe Rogan or or Bispinger, whoever was talking. mentioned the Angela Hill fight and how she looked better on that one. But to be fair, like Androche and Angela Hill are two very different stand-up fighters. And I think it really threw McKinsey Dern off, you know, the sturdiness and the power

coming from Androj, whereas Angela Hill probably didn't throw her off quite as, I don't remember that fight very well, but it probably didn't throw her off quite as much, right? like Angel Hill is, you know, a more of a technical striker, whereas Andrage is just going to stand there, you know, with strong posture, good structure, and she's going to hit you with something with a fucking brick. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

She's just like, she's the old school shoot-box fighter. Yeah, she just comes forward and throws until one of you falls over. So I know you already kind of like, let's, all jokes aside, like all talk about the head and arm show, but no reality, what is your advice to McKinsey, darn? If you're trying to get her to become a better fighter, more complete fighter, what would your advice to her be as a coach?

Because obviously you are a coach. And again, I'm not pitching necessarily pitching her on working with you, maybe. But, you know, like, because there's got to be, like, because she's so talented. Like, I think that's the frustrating part. She is incredibly talented. We know that there's, like, there is the bones of what could be a championship level fighter. But when I say if we hit the ceiling, I just don't know that she's really reached that,

like, has she reached that level in her own preparation? Right. I mean, the advice is simple. I think you could probably even give her the advice, right? Like, like, you know, do a lot of wrestling, do a lot of striking. And I would say, you know, do some strength training too, you know, like she's really, I think she should focus on getting, like, stronger. She's very, like, hyper mobile, you know, and that can be a little bit detrimental. I think if she, like, actually stiffens up a little bit, builds that structure and our foundation a little bit stronger. and then, you know, all are, or at the same time, you know, build that striking and the wrestling. It's all going to come together with having that structure. Those two things are going to improve dramatically because she was just a lot of like, like you said, that kind of flailing. And a lot of it is just, you know, that it's hard to control when you're that flexible and that hyper-mobile. Yeah.

It's weird because, like, we, it's been a long. time since we've had, like we've had guys and girls who have Brazilian Jiu Jitsu blackbelts become champions, but it's been forever since a high-level grappler has come in and become a champion. Like Gilbert Burns is probably the closest. Like he is a world-class high-level grappler and he almost became champion in the Welterweight Division. But by and large, Jiu-Jitsu people have not had that level of success. Like Gary Tonin made it to a title fight in one championship. He got knocked out by Tonle.

you know we've seen Damien Maya Car yeah I mean for years Damien Maya was the guy you know what I mean and like he just never quite got to that level because when he got to that level guys like Tyra Woodley would just shut him down yeah I mean it's just Oliver is a probably the highest one

but Charles Olivera wasn't a he's a he's a black bump he's not like the guy who went out in one 80CCC or anything like he's not like that level he's a he's a he's a incredibly high level grappler in MMA. He's adapted his grappling for MMA. That's why he's so dangerous at MMA with it. The high-level grapplers who were high-level grapples before they got to MMA, it's been a long time since we've seen one of those guys or girls comes in and just, you know, gets to that level. Like there's been a couple who've gotten to a title, but again, like rarely gotten to

and I think my opinion, and I'm sure the Jiu-Jitsu community will come from my throat when I say this, but my opinion is, is that they're, even when they train other things, they're not becoming masters and other elements. And if you're a master, in Jiu-Jitsu, I'm not saying you're going to become a master in wrestling and a master in striking, but you should be able to learn enough to get better at those. Because you always got to have a plan B. You always got to have a plan B. You know what I mean?

Like, obviously, Matt, you go in there, you knock people to hell out. Like, that's what you do. But you put people in submissions. You can wrestle people when you need to. You may be known as a knockout artist, but you have to have a plan B because it's not always going to work out for you. Yeah, and I think a lot of that is, well, I don't know, at my gym, for instance, like, we don't have, well, we have two days, only two days a week. We have a what we call a jihitsu class, which is with the glee. The other days are grappling, right?

So if you think, like, these, I think a lot of these guys that come from jiu jitsu think of the grappling arts is like jiu jiu jitsu is the superior art. but in MMA it means nothing without the wrestling it's really the same art right it's all grappling but you have that you got to have the full spectrum of grappling and that's why the wrestlers do so well right because they pick up the jiu jih Tzu they recognize that as a necessary skill to pick up it seems that the jiu jitsu guys you know something in their mentality doesn't make them want to they think they just need to learn striking right so then now they're doing more Italian jih Tzu or boxing in jih Tzu whereas they need to learn the they they need to expand their repertoire of grappling

yeah no you're absolutely right and like I said I love McKinsey Duren I hope she finds all the success in the world I do appreciate what you said about the divorce thing I get that I understand that like everyone has issues you're dealing with and you got to you know I mean I said the same thing I know it's not divorce but I said the same thing with when you talk about Volkanowski to Usman and the guys and the girls who take short notice fights, I always say you should never condemn a fighter for not taking a short notice fight, but you can celebrate them when they do. But once you step in there, once you accept that challenge,

you step in that octagon, you can't use it as excuse afterwards. That's it. You know, you can't step, well, I took it on 12, well, then don't take it on 12 days. If you're going to say, I shouldn't have taken it on 12 days notice, then don't take it. You know what I mean? Once you get in there, all excuses got to go out the window. Yeah, yeah. And I understand also where it's a little,

complicated, right? Like, I don't know if I don't remember if it was Andrage or McKenzie Durham, but it sounded like, you know, a big part of their motivation was they were paying for the divorce by fighting. Yeah. And, you know, so that gets a little bit complex, right? Like they're, yeah, they're signing on the dotted line, but their motivation isn't necessarily what it should be either. They're, they're, they're walking in for the wrong reasons. And maybe that played a big part or maybe You know, I don't know. But I am a big believer that, yeah, once you sign on the dotted the dotted lines, you have to forget about everything else in life.

And that's when, you know, you got to get away from the beach. You got to get away from the comforts in life. You got to go put yourself through hell and be prepared for a fucking war, especially when, you know, you're at that level. I mean, you have to be ready for anything. You have to be a thousand percent committed to victory, not to just going in and hoping your jiu-jitsu. works or hoping that you knock them out of what you you have to be 100% committed to victory

and victory only absolutely and and again all the other stuff you got a you got to wipe that away when you step in there because that kind of distraction will absolutely if you're right if you're fighting for the wrong reason like oh man I mean I know it sounds terrible to say it this way but like oh man my ex is going to take half my paycheck so I got to win so I make double paycheck that's not that's not that's not necessarily going to lead you to victory in that in that mindset you know what I mean like that's it that's it you know with that just speaking from my own experience getting a little personal when I went through my divorce that was right after I had retired right what a coincidence but uh you know when I came back to fight

you know there was a little bit of you know let's fight so we can pay for this divorce there was a piece of that in there but also I took those lessons um from fighting right because okay let me go back So the divorce, I was like, okay, I'm going to get through this somehow. This is miserable. This fucking sucks, right? You know, but then as soon as I sound on that dotted line, I said, okay, I'm committed to winning this fight. And that sparked my mentality of, okay, I'm committed to winning this fight and winning in life and winning in the divorce and winning in every fucking thing that I do. And that's where, you know, when you, it made me think about it because you brought up Volcanovsky.

and sort of having that purpose and everything. And that for me, like that brought me that purpose. And I hope it did that for those ladies. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Talking about the other fights, of course, the other two big ones we want to get into, of course. Tom Aspinall goes out there. Incredible performance.

Knocking out Sergei Pavovich. Crazy fight last 69 seconds. There's not really a whole lot to talk about. Sergei landed a punch early. It looked like maybe he wobbled Tom. Tom didn't get Tom bounced back rather quickly. and then he clipped Sergey and put him down and out. I did think, and please, again, you're the fighter, Matt, please correct if I'm wrong,

but I felt like maybe Sergey got a little overconfident after he clubbed him one time, and it looked like he maybe had wobbled him and he got a little too crazy. It reminded me, you know what it reminded me of. It reminded me of the Steepay, Francis and Gano rematch. When Steepa hit Francis clean in that second round, and then he just went wild, and then Francis caught him and knocked him out. It kind of reminded me that little bit where Sergey hit him. And Tom, I don't know if Tom acknowledged it.

I didn't listen to his entire post-fight interview, but like, he looked wobbled for a second. And then I think Sergey just went after him and then, you know, we saw what happened, you know, and Tom got him and put him down. And, man, incredible win. I mean, 69 seconds are not really a whole lot to say. Right, right. No, I think you call it a perfect. I think it gave Sergey a surge of confidence that, you know, you walk in there, you know, less than two minutes into the fight and you're fresh.

you're feeling great. You walk into these fights with all these questions in your mind. How's it going to go? You know, some people have like a little bit of doubt about their confidence or how they feel. You know, maybe, you know, you make this guy out to be this big monster. And then you go in there and clock them and you hurt them. And you're like, oh, this is going to be easy, you know, like, like, I got this, right? And now your confidence goes a little bit towards the other side of the line where it shouldn't go.

and I think I've seen a little bit of that with Sergey, but, but, you know, on that same token, I don't want to take a damn thing away from Tom Aspinall because, you know what?

Sergei could have been confident, could have been feeling good, could have rocked him. Tom Aspinall played his cards perfectly. He recovered. He set his feet and he fucking, man, it sucked a hell out of me.

not expect him to put Sergey down like that. Yeah, I feel like this is one of those fights that I feel like we may see again one day because I don't know there's a lot of people who are going to be able to survive with Sergei on the feet in the heavyweight division. And Tom, I think Tom is 30, so he's still a fairly young guy for that division. Like, I don't know there's going to be a lot of people beating him either. So I feel like this is one we could see down the road. You know, maybe it's a year from now, maybe it's a year and a half from now.

But I feel like this is one we will see again. Has Searle gone fought Tom Aspinall? He is not. He's not for either of them, actually. I didn't think so. That to me is an interesting fight matchup-wise. Like we all know what Surreal's weakness is, right? He can be taken down and he can be beat on the ground.

But on the feet, he causes everybody problems. So if either one of those matchups, he's the guy that kind of, I think kind of the dark horse there. It's a matter of whether he can get him. himself a title shot. I think I liked what Tom said afterwards that Cyril should fight Jailton Almeida because Jailton Almeida is obviously an incredible. I mean, right after Jailton Almeida won his fight, which we talked about last week, which was a weird one where he won, but somehow I think his stock went down a little bit because of his performance. I said he should fight Curtis Blades because Curtis is such an incredible wrestling. You're not going to be able to,

your chances are you're not going to be able to go out there and grind Curtis Blades in a wrestling match like that. You're just not. You're going to have to show your other weapons. But that being said, I don't have a problem with him fighting Cyril Gan because if Jelton Almeida beat Suril Gan, he's a legitimate contender. If Serilgan can beat Jelton Almeida, he's a legitimate contender, and he has to go through a guy who you got to know is going out there to take you down, put you on your back, and beat you up or submit you. And Seril Gan's weakness is what? It's grappling. It's getting taken down and getting submitted or beaten up on his back. So I think that actually is kind of a perfect matchup because we got to be honest Matt like afterwards you know

Tom is saying you know my dream is to fight john jones that's my you know my legacy fight i love john jones tom here you offered advice to mackenzie durn can i offer some advice to tom aspinall right now tom let it go you're not going to fight john jones he ain't going to fight you john's going to fight stepe and then probably right off into the sunset and if stepe wins he's going to beat john jones he's going to write he's going to write off in the sunset i love you buddy you're not getting to fight john jones just get that out of your head right now you might as well just go and start thinking about jelton almeda surreal gone curtis blades whoever else is out there because you're not getting john there there there's a slim slim chance you get john jones if he goes out there beats

stebe but even that i think it's still slim the only thing is if jolton almeda and surreal gone if that fight is made if i'm dana white i have a hard time making that fight because we've seen you know Derek Lewis and Surreal Gone, neither one of them have a superior ground game, right? Maybe I don't know what all they do have on the ground. And Jelton, I made that about the most boring fight we've ever seen in the past 10 years. Is he going to go out and do that exact same thing to Surreal Gone? That's, I think, where the odds are, right? Like, that's where I'm putting my money.

Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, listen, if you're Surreal Gone, you got to. to prove it. Like you got to, maybe he fights Curtis Blaze, but you've got to prove you can go with a wrestler and a grappler. Like, you can't continue to just skate by on your striking. He said, I'm saying if you're Dana White, are you excited to make that fight? I mean, listen, and, you know, while I did give Geraldton a hard time for his win last week, I mean, it was a dominant win. And, and, you know, he was supposed to fight Curtis Blaze. He got, he got Derek Lewis instead. And maybe he just took the path of least resistance. It's just the path of least resistance.

was incredibly boring. So, you know, but I mean, listen, Sarongan's gotten two titles. He's gotten three title shots now technically. He had the interim title fight with, you know, with Derek Lewis, which he won, and then he lost to Francis and he lost to John. To get a third title shot, I don't care of who the champion is,

where there's Tom Aspinall or whoever it is, you got to earn it. And he beat, whoever he beat the last time, I don't care who he beat, Sergei Spivak. Was that who he fought? I can't remember. I think that was it, right?

That's right. And, I mean, come on. Like, dude, you got to beat Curtis Blaze. You got to beat Jelton Omeida. You got to beat one of these top guys to get back to a third title shot. Or maybe say maybe you fight Sergei. Like Sergey coming back. Maybe he might Sergey.

I get that. I'm just saying from a UFC promoter standpoint, Dana White, like, are you really excited to make that fight? Like, you know the likelihood of Jalton outmated doing another five rounds that he did to Derek Lewis is pretty high. It is. But here's what I will say. Aspinel is also an incredibly good grappler. He's shown that throughout his UFC career. He's actually a pretty high-level grappler in that way.

That's why I was- him and Tom make for a great fight. That's what I said. Well, no, that's what I'm saying. No, that's what I'm saying about Jelton. Like, if Jelton beat Cyril Gond, then Jelton and Tom Aspinnell is a pretty damn good fight. Like, that's a pretty compelling matchup because...

Hell you know. So, you know, maybe he just goes out. Because, again, if Cyril gone in a weird way, like, I'm going all the way back right, like, in a weird way, he's a little bit in a little bit McKinsey-Dern situation. Can he get better? enough in his grappling and his and his wrestling to actually survive against the best guys of

division i don't know yet because the two times he's fought a guy who could outgraple him he got out grappled badly you know it wasn't even close um so you know like i said i mean if you can't dude if you get taken down and grind it on for five rounds by jelton i made it you probably shouldn't fight for the title yeah no i agree with that i'm yeah like i said i'm just saying if you know if they make a a main event it has to be a main event, right? It's a heavyweight title contender match. It's got to be five rounds. You know,

I guess, like, we always say, like, deserve isn't really the in the vocabulary here. Jalton and I made it probably deserves that fight. Yeah, no, he does. But does Dana want to make that fight? You know, like, where do you put it on fight pass?

That's a, what's funny is, what's funny is that's a different answer two weeks ago. You know what I mean? Last week, you know, Two weeks ago he said, Jailton, I made him, man, that guy is the dude. Then he goes on and has a dare. I told you that Derek Lewis fight dropped his stock. He won, he won a 50-44 decision.

His stock drops him out because of that performance. Yeah, this is my point. This is my point. It kind of dropped his stock. So it's like, how do you even put it? Are you excited to put him on any main event, even against Curtis Blades? You can probably wrestle with him. Yeah, you're absolutely, no, you're 110% right.

And, I mean, look, 69 seconds is a blistering quick fight. but how much fun was it to see Sergey and Tom just go out there and throw down? You know what I mean? Are you going to ever have that kind of fight from Jelton Almeda? I mean, now you got to question that. So not saying he has to go out and like knock people. I'm saying like, you know, he'd be dominant on the ground. You can go ground and pound the hell out of somebody?

Like just making an exciting fight. Now we have that question. Like, can you do that after what happened with the Derek Lewis fight? Like you were obviously undersized and the guy had 30 pounds on you. Your path to victory wasn't like a bad strategy, but your strategy should have involved maybe, I don't know. throwing some punches on the ground like something right you know i don't hate jot nomada for doing it i respect it i i'm a purist of the the sport right like i think that you know lay i hate stand-ups i hate you know referees getting involved in i don't like none of that stuff you know hell i don't

even think there should be rounds i think that fight should have went on for an hour for of der kluis on the bottom but but it's entertainment and dana white and ufc and company they are here for entertainment purposes, and they want to sell paper views. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I know that, and as I said, like, you know, I appreciate Tom Aspenall wanting John Jones, but Dana doubled down last night. It's going to be John and Steepa next year,

probably going to end up being International Fight Week. I've moved on, listen, it's still a fun fight. It's still a massive fight for the UFC. You know, you know my opinion on Stepe, you know my opinion on Joe. I think Jones is the greatest of all time. I think Steve is the best heavyweight of all time. I have no problem with them sitting around and waiting to fight each other. And the division could just move on after that.

Tom Aspinall has the interim title. He can defend it or he can wait and then just, you know, fight somebody else. Because, I mean, that's what Robert Whitaker did when Bisping was champion. He fought George St. Pierre. George St. Pierre basically retired. And he fought, you all Romero. And then he fought whoever else. Like that's the division will just move on.

I love, listen, would Tom Aspinall, John Jones be a fun fight? sure but i think it wouldn't but john jones john jones is at the level now where he's just like he doesn't need that fight like are we going to question john jones legacy because he never fights steat tom aspenol like no like you know what i mean he's done everything he needs to do to create a legacy for himself as in my opinion the greatest fighter of all time beating stepe meoch it does mean something because stepe is you know the greatest heavyweight of all time and it's a big name uh i think that was the problem john ran into a light heavyweight when he just started fighting Tiago Santos and Anthony Smith and Dominic Reyes and it's just like one guy

after the other and I just think he kind of lost interest. Yeah, I agree. I would love, I hope that John Jones gets his fire back under him. He might be too old for too much money, already done too much, whatever. And I get that. I, for one, I hope that he gets motivated and wants to come back and fight Tom Aspinall. I really want to see that fight now. I mean, I think it's a tremendous fight. I'm just, I'm just being realistic and saying it's probably never going to happen.

Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, it's like when, you know, back in the day when like Fador became a free agent, I was like, yeah, we're probably never going to see him in the UFC. Like, it's just, there's just those two sides are like oil and water. Like, it's never going to work out. And like, I would love to get excited about it. But I'm just being realistically.

That's why I said my advice to Tom Aspinall. Let's just move on, start thinking about some. Real Gon start thinking about Sergey Pabler or, uh, or, um, uh, Jelton Outmate or somebody else. Because the John Jones thing is like a fantasy. And, and at best, at best, you're going to be waiting until the end of next year because Steve is still going to get the first crack at John next year probably in like July. So you ain't going to fight anybody if you wait around for that until like November, December.

So you might as well just go ahead and move on. Well, that's my question. Is who does he fight in the meantime? Well, I mean, I think, I think Surreal and Jelton in a perfect world that is the matchup to make because again like as boring as that fight was he did beat you know he is undefeated in the UFC he does seem like a legitimate contender and you know Curtis is coming off the loss of Sergei Pavovich there's not really another guy out there tied to evas has lost several in a row so yeah I think you do gelton and surreal early next year and then the winner gets tom maybe you do

maybe you do Tom versus the winner is like the interim title fight to you defend the interim title on the same card of stepey and Jones and you try to maybe maybe maybe you maybe you you coach Jones to stick around or something. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, those are the only two guys, right? Yeah, so I mean, I don't know. And then did you hear the comments afterwards with Dana when somebody asked about co-promoting with the PFL to make to Francis and Ghanu?

Yeah. Listen, let me be clear about this, Matt. Like, as a fan, as a pure fan, I would love to see Francis and Gano and John Jones fight. I would. I've always wanted to see that fight. When from the first time to John Jones, from the first time to Francis, mentioned it and John Jones basically said, yeah, let's do it. I was like, oh, man, I'm way into that.

Two years later, three or whatever, however long it's been, three years later, whatever it is, he's in the P&P, Francis is in the PFL right now. You can disagree with Dana all you want and dislike some of the things that Dana says. That's fine. But he's not wrong when he says that what reason would I have to co-promote. The UFC's making record revenue year over year, quarter over quarter, making boatloads of... They're the only...

Matt, they are the only profitable mixed martial arts organization. Okay, they are. They're the only ones actually making money. Like, it's one thing to make money and you have investors giving you more money. It's another thing to actually be in the... Is it the red of the black?

You're in the black. You're in the black. You're making money. You know what I mean? You're not funding yourself by what people are donating to. You're investing in you. They are the only profitable mixed martial arts.

When they do their... They do their financials in the year. They're not saying we lost $300 million. They're not saying we lost $200 million. They are making $300 million a quarter. I understand Francis and John is a big fight, but it's not the biggest. I mean, Conner's coming back in a few months.

That's going to be way bigger than Jones and Francis. Francis, I love Francis, but if they did a co-promotion with Francis, it's all for Francis. They don't really get a lot out of it. You know what I mean? Like the PFL gets a lot out of it. What does the UFC get out of it? Yeah, 100%.

And realistically, they're the A side on every part of that deal. You know, so even, even Francis and John, like, people have short memories. Like, not like Tyson and Francis didn't even sell that much. Yeah. Right. You see the numbers. Like, they had low, very, very low. pay-per-view sales from what I've understood.

Like, Francis is not a pay-per-view draw. Like, Tyson probably sold all of those. Yeah, like Francis is not a pay-per-view draw. John Jones is. The UFC is. So it's an absolute, you know, it'd be like Metallica partnering up with the local garage band. You know, like, yeah, you guys come, you know, do the, you know, play on stage with us or something.

Like, it doesn't make any sense at all. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. And like I said, they're not, UFC is not in this for short-term gains. Like, is everything, even if I don't care if John goes out there and absolutely wipes the floor with Francis de Ghana. Like, I don't care if that's the result. You still spent millions of dollars promoting the PFL,

an organization that while I do appreciate what they do, and I do like the PFL, you know, they're doing their cards inside, like casinos. and where there's like, you know, 500 seats in a, in a little theater room. And, you know, and they're on ESPN2 or, you know, like, they're not, they're not, like, they're not on the same level as the UFC, building, doing a co-promotion puts them on the same level. And it's one fight. Like, what, what do you name?

It'd be like if, if Connor McGregor fought, like, the local LFA champion or something, you know, like, Like now that dude makes millions of dollars because of Connor, right? Everybody knows who he is now because of Connor. It doesn't make any sense at all. So yeah, it's a silly question. And I think a journalist kind of, you know, he didn't even, he didn't make a good case for it either because he could have kind of, I don't know who that journalist was, but he kind of shriveled up.

I think, you know, Dana is obviously like very good with media and knows how to speak to them well. And the guy kind of shriveled up a little bit. you know, he didn't really make the case for making that fight. Yeah, I mean, you could try to make the case and say that it's the best heavyweight fight you could make, the number one heavyweight in the world. It's the fight the fans all want to see. And that's the argument I keep getting for people online and saying, it's the fight the fans want to say, well, yeah, they do want to see it.

But guess what? They'll also want to see Steepa and John Jones. They'll also want to see Steepa or John Jones and Tom Aspinon or Tom Aspinon, Suril gone. You know what I mean? Like, that's the PFL. There's always another star. There's always more big huge fights to make. The PFL has Francis and Ghanu and who to fight him?

Who? It's a problem. They have nobody. They have nobody. They have no one to fight him. None. They have no one. Like,

I had this conversation with- I'm wondering if they bring over, Deonté Wilder is talking about doing M.A. That's what PFL needs to shoot for. If Deonté Wider wants to do MMA, come fight Francis and PFL. Yeah. And let's be honest, that's not really a compelling fight either.

I mean, that's just because of name value, because of Deontay Wilder, it's not because we actually think he has a tremendous. It was not compelling to us, but we know how these gimmick fights go. Jake Paul and ADS wasn't compelling to me either. Yeah. But what I'm saying is, is like, that whole situation is the PFL has everything to gain and the UFC has basically nothing to gain. Like, yeah, are there going to be fans being like, oh, wow, they're co-promoting.

They're making a fight we all want to see. Sure. But guess what? They do 13 pay-per-views a year with fights people want to see. They sell record. They sell out arenas constantly. They sell out record revenues and pay-per-views. They got a TV deal coming up next year.

Do you think they really give a shit about one fight? Like, that's going to make or break them. It may make or break the PFL. You know, like, PFL may put everything into France as they have no one formed to fight. Like, I was having this conversation with Daniel Cormier before, and I said, who's he going to fight? Ryan Bader? Like, I like Ryan Bader. This is not a knock on Ryan Bader.

But that's the biggest name they could promote right now. Ryan Bader is the biggest name available in the heavyweight division that could fight Francis and Gano right now. And are you excited to see Ryan Bader fight Francis and Gano, Matt? Are you chalking down $70 to pay for that pay-per-view? No, I'm not paying 70, but I would actually like to see the fight personally. But, you know, again, when you get to that level, it's like a Connor or John Jones or GSP. You know, when you're at that level, he just fought Tyson, you know,

it's about star power, right? You got to have the skills, but you also got to have the star power. That's just all there is to it. You have to have the drawing power. But I would argue Francis doesn't have that drawing power, that's what I'm saying. But he needs a B side with drawing power.

Yeah, he, like, I love, I always always want to have to adjust to my comment when I say this, but like, I love Francis. I root for Francis. I'm so happy that he got paid a big bag of money and then basically beat Tyson Fury. I think he beat Tyson Fury. But the reality is his biggest fight card in the UFC, I think got 325,000 pay-per-view buys when he fought Steepet the second time. That Tyson Fury card did not do well.

And I understand that. A lot of people, no one gave him a chance. So I'm sure there's a lot of people are like, I'm not going to plop down $80 or $60 or whatever it was to watch a squash match. Well, it didn't have turned in that way. But that's what everyone assumed it was going to be. You and I included. And there's no one for him to fight. Like, free agent, heavyweight's not a great division anyways.

Like, they're going to sign Junior Dos Santos and do that fight. They're going to sign Fabrizio Verdub at 44, have throw him in there. Are people really going to plunk down? And they're also, that's the other thing about this, Matt. They're not just putting Francis on a show. They're putting them on a pay-per-view. They're expecting people to plunk down $50, $60, $70 to pay to see it. Well, as you said, there's got to be a beast.

because Francis versus random heavyweight guy who's going to get absolutely torched inside 30 seconds is not going to make me want to put down $60. Yeah, and that's not a B side. That's a D side. Or a F side or some shit, you know. And, you know, it sucks too because, you know, just I don't know if it's just the world we live in this age.

I don't know if it's always been this way. But the, you know, these guys like Francis should be a fucking star, man. He should. This man on the planet right now Maybe John Jones is We don't know which one is But one of those two is the baddest guy Walking on this fucking earth

And no one gives a shit about him Yeah, I listen If I could tell people This is the guy you should watch Put your money on absolutely I would say that But the reality is that's just not how the sport works You know what I mean? More people are going to pay to watch Jake Paul

Than to watch Francis Yeah And I'm not saying that's right. I certainly don't think it is, but that's the way of the world, man. And that's what you talked about earlier with the entertainment factor. Like, we talk about Jelton Almeda. Like, the UFC is about entertaining fights. Like, that's what happened last night. Alex Pereira had one win in the light heavyweight division. But guess what? He's an entertaining motherfucker. And so they're like, we're going to put him in there. It's a great story. And what do you do? He goes out there

and knocks out Yer Praschka. Sergei Pavavich, you know, like he wasn't a big name, but he's a big performer. He goes out there and knocks people to hell out. People, they love stuff. Like I said, that's the reality. Connor is on the worst streak of his life right now. He's like one in three in his last four. He's barely fought over the last like three years. But does that matter? No, he's a freaking star.

And he's probably about to headline UFC 300. Exactly. And that's why he's a star. And there's no rhyme or reason to it. Like I wish I could tell you why one guy becomes a star and the other guy doesn't. Like I, there's some people who have become absolutely massive stars and looking at from the outside, looking at, looking at their rise. I'm like, I don't totally get it, but whatever gets, like, I didn't totally understand

the Sean Amalley thing when he became a big star. Like, I was like, all right, like, he's a colorful dude and like, you know, whatever, but it's not like, I was like, man, this guy's just got such a magnetic personality and he really knows how to talk trash. Like, I didn't, he didn't strike me that way, but he is. And when he talks now, people listen. And again, I'm all for it. Like, good for him.

I like Sean Amalley. But, like, when he became a star, my needy reaction was like, really? This guy? Okay. Like, to me, Al Jermaine. Like, Al Jermaine should have been a star. Like, Al Jermaine was so talented and such a world-class fighter and well-spoken and really good interview and all these guys.

That guy should be a star. No one gave a shit. Like, no one, you know what I mean? Like, that's just, so I can't predict these things. And that's the same thing with, you know, where they're at right now with Francis. Like, I can't predict why people aren't into Francis and Gano in that way, like, to where they're wanting to plunk down money. I get it.

Like, and as you said, there's got to be a B-side now. until he becomes the star, he needs a B-side. Yeah, I mean, I was just to say, you know, the rhyme and the reason is because people are dumb. I mean, you know, Miley Cyrus and Britney Spears and Taylor Swift are the biggest stars in America, you know. Like, people are dumb, bro. We can sum it up all the rhymes and the reasons right there.

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Conditions apply. Dude, don't, don't bring out the Swifty Army, man. They will come for your throat. Oh, let's bring out the Swiftie Army, bro. I will beat Cavs Kelsey's ass. You think you had it bad? You think you had it bad, Miley Cyrus? The Swifties will come for your throat, man.

Let me tell you. I love it, bro. I'm all, I'm here for it. Dude, they will, they will absolutely, you know, I, I mean, it is what it does. I don't really care. Well, to be fair, I kind of like Taylor Swift, though. She seems like a really good person and she's pretty. Miley Cyrus just isn't that pretty to me.

I'm just like, I don't get, that's the one I don't get the star power. I don't understand how she's, she can't sing that well. And she's not very pretty. And she says like the most god-awful cringe things ever. Taylor Swift is like well put together. Like she sings well. She performs. She's really, really a good performer.

I mean, obviously a lot of production and stuff. But, you know, she's a good songwriter. She writes a lot of her own song. songs like I see the talent there yeah Travis Kelsey's probably a cool dude you know I mean he's from Cincinnati I went to college University of Cincinnati that's where he's went to school you know he's an Ohio boy from Iraq day he's from around Cleveland but he went to college at the university at the university my my alma mater Matt University of Cincinnati there you go there you go there's a cool dude you know yeah I actually

weirdly like I I I'm not like a fan necessarily but I like Taylor Swift like she doesn't bother me her music doesn't bother me like there's actually there I'm not I'm not I lie. There's a couple Taylor Swift songs that are catchy, Matt. I can't lie about that. Like, they are catchy. They're not bad. There's a couple of songs that do catch you a little bit. Here's one thing I want to say, though. Can you please send me this clip so I can post it all over social media? It's not bad, man. It's not. Listen, dude, I go all over to Matt, man, with what I listen to. I got no problem with that. But I appreciate it.

You listen to Miley? A little bit. I know a couple of her songs. Oh, my God. I didn't say I liked it. I just said I knew. I didn't say I liked it. I just said I know a couple of her songs i didn't say i liked it i said i know a couple of her songs i know a lot of songs that mean i like it trust me oh man i'm very disappointed in you damon i know i know i know i know drake's songs and i'd rather get hit in the head with a tack hammer than listen to that again so you know it's like you know there's lots of stuff out there that i know doesn't mean i like it fair enough well anyway yeah you know the the i don't even know where how to hell we got into

this situation of brand. Well, you said you didn't understand why people were into Taylor Swift and Miley Cyrus. Because people are fucking dumb, bro. You know, like if people were intelligent, like wouldn't like Beethoven and Mozart and shit be more, you know, commonly listened to or or even, you know, like King Veib Momstein or something, right?

Like, like wouldn't this shit be more popular or, you know, like decent TV shows and stuff? like people are fucking dumb bro well listen there's i guarantee you there's people who are listening this and who would say when i like what concerts have you been to recently but i said i went to a slayer concert they'd be like that's just noise to them so you know i get that i understand why people think metal is just noise right like it's you know there is a barrier to entry for metal right I get that. But okay, well, I guess we were going to get into anyway.

You said you had a surprise for yourself. I did. I did. Like, this is how dumb people are. They cheer a fucking president. And it could have been Trump, could have been Biden, Bush, Obama. I don't give a fuck. Like, you're going to cheer this cock sucker who doesn't give the slightest fuck for you

and stole all your money for the, the, however many years he was in office and drop bombs on people around. around the world and you're going to cheer this motherfucker on. See, here's where I'm going to build a bridge. Here's where I'm going to build a bridge, Matt, because we don't discuss politics on this show for good reason. There was once upon a time, years ago, we got off on a tangent on our old podcast and we ended up.

It's your fault, by the way. It was because I got fired up and we started going at it. It was like an hour-long conversation. We got done. We're like, yeah, we should have started that one. So I'm not going to turn this into political debate. I'm not going to say you should or should not like whoever you like. I don't care.

Whatever. I'm here to build bridges, Matt. I'm here to make common ground, which is something, sadly, we don't have a lot of in this country anymore. There's really no common ground anymore. People are just too, like, black and white. You know, it's got to be my way or the highway. So here's something. I'm going to build bridges for what happened last night.

When they walked in, it was Donald Trump and whatever, a couple people. Kid Rock was there. Kid Rock was there with Dana and Trump and all the other people. Here's my building bridges. Can we all agree? Here's something I do. We can all agree on this, Matt. kid rock's music fucking sucks

I knew you were gonna say that there's my building bridge is everyone can agree that kid rock sucks as a musician right like we can all agree on that like I don't care what his politics are I don't care what he believes and I don't care he hangs out with none of that bothers me I don't care we should all be able to agree

that kid rock sucks okay I'm gonna I'm gonna have to agree to disagree on this oh no you're already burning my bridge I'm trying to build here I'm fucking I'm stopping the antenna poles on the bridge right now. Like stop the construction because I mean,

I'm not a kid rock fan necessarily. Bro, he's got some good songs. Dude, I would rather listen to Taylor Swift from now until Doomsday than ever hear kid rock again. Well, that's when me and you, we build bridges. Well, usually through music, actually. A lot of the same musical taste. We do.

We veer very far on this one. I'm shocked you like Kid Rock. I am shocked. I was like I'm not jamming out to Bob with a bar in my car. You know, like I'm not cranking it up with the windows down and shit. But if I hear it on the radio, I'm like, fuck yeah, dude. Like it's good songs, man. Oh, man.

Dude, you should start listen to Taylor Swift because you need to get out of this kid rock is good thing. That's not like, no. There's just nothing good. I guess the good songs, bro. The one he did with Cheryl Crow, that was a good song. I mean, no, but I mean, I guess everyone's got their own thing. No, I just. I wasn't a song either.

No, he can't sing. He's not a talented singer at all. He's not a very talented singer. I'll give you that. And he takes Metallica songs and just does horrific remakes of them when he does the American badass or whatever. He uses a Metallica song and he just starts shouting. over it. Oh, it's so bad. Dude. It sounded like a

W.W.W. Walkout music, though. It does. And that's fine. But yeah, I just, I mean, I can't believe you actually argue with me on Kid Rock is good. Dude, I thought we'd all, I thought we'd all, listen, again, your political affiliation aside, your political affiliation aside, we should all be,

it was like your opinion of Papa Roach back in the day. We should all be able to agree on these things, Matt. Hey, hey, we can agree on that. Papa Roach sucks. we can just stick with that one. But I figure, dude, see,

it just doesn't, I don't know, Kid Rock is, you got to find good. Of course, music is extremely subjective, right? Like, like even,

you know, Taylor Swift, Molly Cyrus, all these pop stars, whatever, Like, it's all the same shit, right? They use the same chord progressions. You know, it's usually like three chords and usually like the first, the fourth,

and the six or something like that. You know, it's like very common chord progressions. So it gets very subjective. But then you get the outliers like the kid rocks. And either you find it interesting or you don't. Yeah. I'd rather take a cast iron skillet to the face than listen to Kid Rock. So that dude, his music.

But you would choose Taylor Swift over Kid Rock. Here's why. Here's why. I may not be a big Swifty myself while I do say she has a couple catchy songs. Here's why I would say it's different. One thing you can't deny about Taylor Swift is she is talented. She writes all her own songs. Plays piano.

She's very talented. Kid Rock is not talented. He's not. What does he do? Did he make a couple hit songs? Sure. He made some songs, but listen,

I mean, the Macarena, the Macarena was a hit song at one point, you know? I will agree Taylor Swift is more talented than Kid Rock. Yeah. But Kid Rock, come on now, dude.

Like, he's just, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's more talented. But,

yeah. I guess we're at a crossroads on this. You're really. you're really you're you're you're starting to regret it aren't you're like I'm defending kid rock right now this is maybe not the road I want to try to be careful like not to defend it too much because I don't want to act like I'm some big kid rock thing or anything or like I actually give a fuck about kid rock but but it's like it's still better than like most pop music I mean again like there's grades to this right like you know I mean what I like I there's not much I would want to listen to you to do less than kid rock, but I'm sure there's stuff out there. I'm sure there's stuff out there that I would like to listen to less than than kid rock, but. Like the wheels on the bus.

But if you get a gun to my head and you're saying, would you last to the red list of the kid rock or this? Chances are I'm probably going to pick the other thing. Yeah. So, yeah, I just, it's terrible. It's so bad. It's so bad. And he's not, he's not a good singer.

He's not a good guitar player. There's nothing about him that's good, Matt. Nothing. I'm not, I'm not going to claim it's good. I'm not going to go that far. I won't say it's good. But most pop music is fucking horrid. And not in terms of talent, but in terms of soul and production and I mean, whether production is good.

But like soul and like it's musical, right? It has musicality. It has fucking melody. But there's no art behind it. There's no soul. There's no that. I mean, well, that's it. there's no art and soul behind it, bro.

I mean, listen, you're not going to, like, I don't listen to, I, I'm, listen, as much as I do listen to a lot of different things, uh, I do tend to fall more into one category of like hard rock metal. That's more of what I listen. That's conscious I go to stuff like that. But I do enjoy other music. Like, I love Run the Jewels. Thank you.

You know, things like that. Yeah, I don't listen to a lot of pop music, but I can appreciate it. Like, I can appreciate what it is. Like, when I, when I happen to come across. the Taylor Swift song and it's playing. I can hear the talent. Like, it's not my bag and that's okay because I'm sure there's people who would hear me saying, yeah, I went

and saw motionless and white in a couple weeks ago and they're like, I would never go to a motion and emotional and emotional white concert. That's fine. I got no problem with that. If you don't want to go to knock loose and motionless and white concert and get screamed at for a two hours, that's my thing. I get it. That's okay. But I can't appreciate the talent.

That's what I said. I can appreciate the talent that Taylor Swift possesses. I don't see a whole lot of that coming from Kid Rock is where I'm getting that like okay you want to say I feel that you want to say he's a little catchy okay I'll give you that one maybe but you can't sit there and say it's like a talented dude okay I think we're probably closer in agreement you think you see if you can agree with this the actual best most talented soulful music out there there's got to be blues uh I mean I'll agree but yeah I just I don't know a lot of blues I'll be

like like it's not something I listen to on the regular like but like I was listening to Joe Bonamast today he's coming to town soon, right? I was like, all right, catch up on my Bon Maston. Maybe I'll get to go to the concert. But when you take it as a whole, as an art form that's soulful, improvised, coming from the heart,

accessible to the most amount of people, it's got to be the blues. And in my, I took music appreciation in college for an easy credit when I was in college. I think if I'm not mistaken, blues is the original

and only, like the original like first ever American made music. Like we didn't get influenced and like, you know, taken from other places in the world or whatever. I think blues was like the first true American music form, if we're not mistaken. That sounds right. Yeah, because it came from the deep south and...

Yeah. It's kind of a mix of like bluegrass and blues type of thing. Yeah. I think it was. I think if I remember correct, I think it was like it was considered the first like truly American music, like where we didn't, you know, take it from somebody else. Maybe that's why I feel that way, because I'm a goddamn American.

There you go. Speaking of non-Americans, two non-Americans fought. Yeah, back to M.A. Two non-Americans fought in the main event last night for the light heavyweight title, Alex Pereira knocks out Yuri Pajshka. Now, I'm just going to tell you to go on this one, Max. I already know you want to react to this. Now, to be fair, Yer and Pajaska has come out afterwards and said he has no problem with

the stoppage. I was out, and if it wasn't out, it was a couple of punches away for being out. He actually says, I'm cool with it. I got no problem with this rarity where the fighter who got beat is like not complaining. He's like, you know what? I was done. It's cool. And Alex Pere, of course, says that.

Now, I know you, Matt, I would assume you would prefer Yuri, you know, get knocked the fuck out before you actually stop a fight. 100%. But what did you think of the stoppage? Yeah, it was definitely early. I don't think there's any question about that, especially at this level and especially the championship level. Not that there should necessarily be a difference, but there should be a difference between like amateur and then pro, right?

But at that level, you know, it was certainly early. And I think, personally, I think that's Yuri's humility coming out of them. You know, I don't think, I think if it was like the worst stoppage in the world, I don't think you'd see him complain. You know, he might say something about it, but, you know, I don't think you'd hear him complain about it. I think he's just that kind of guy. he's got the samurai spirit deep running in his blood.

So, you know, I don't think you're going to hear from him any real complaints or anything. And I have a lot of respect for him for carrying himself that way. But the ref, you just got to let it go, man. Like, this is what we do for a living. And, you know, give the guy a chance. We've seen some insane comebacks. And to be fair to the referees, like, it is very. subjective you got a split second to make a decision um so it's kind of hard to compare like one

fight to another you know there's certain things that they're looking for and um they got a split second to change a fighter's entire career right there so you know it is very difficult situation that they're in but it was early and i don't think he would have got out either by the way i think that alex would have finished you know and you're probably would have taken more punishment uh i do think that would have happened, but I'd rather see him take that punishment and go out properly on a sword or a shield. Yeah,

I would say where we agree on this subject a lot is that I typically lean towards you. I know you have more of that warrior mentality and the fighter mentality where you're like, just let me be done, like completely done before you stop a fight. Now I may stop at one shade before that, but I agree

here. That wasn't early stop. I think Mark Goddard's an incredible referee. Like he's a top notch referee. I think he just pulled the trigger quickly after he saw Yerry kind of go limp a little bit from the elbows and then he got thrown down in the mountain he just stopped and he should at least let him take a few more shots to see if he has a chance to recover

and get out of there because we have seen it and I know I agree with you like every fight should be treated the same I get it but we all have that feeling when it's a title fight like it's a big moment you got to give that guy every opportunity to get out of there and give him a chance

because you know listen do we hope that like no one ever takes extra damage of course we never want to see someone take like a just undue amount of damage but a couple extra punches in that moment are not gonna it's not gonna make you know it's gonna be the difference between what we're talking about right now and alex just having an emphatic victory right like yeah or it could be the difference between yeary escaping and going on to win the fight too you know so that's that's why it's a it's a very subjective thing in the moment and you know mark goddard isn't known for doing that um so again i i do have

for the referees and the position that they're in. It's a difficult situation. And, you know, especially when I'm sure that the refs learn about concussions and brain health and things like that. And that makes it complicated when you know, you know, this could affect the guy for the rest of his life negatively. But also if you stop it too soon, you know, I always go back to like the Neil Magnet, Hector-Lombard fight.

Like, you could have stopped that fight five or six. seven, eight times, you know, like so many times. And Neil goes on and wins, you know, because the ref was letting them fight. I mean, just an amazing victory by Neil, right? Like, he deserves all the respect in the world for that. But it's just that those situations like that just remind me that we never know what's going to happen. And we've seen it enough times now where guys come back from getting rocked and winning. and, you know, right on the verge of getting knocked out or, you know, the fight being stopped and they come back and win.

Yeah, I agree totally with what you're saying, especially in this case. Like, I think Alex would have finished him either way. Like, I think he would have won. I don't think this, I don't think this, like, negates his win or, you know, puts, like, you know, puts a negative spin on his win. I think he would have won anyways. But I would have just like to let it seem until the conclusion. Like, let it go to the point where it's really over.

I don't think it's like a huge, huge deal in this one, especially because, as you said, Yeri is doing the samurai thing and saying that, like, you know, I'm okay with the stoppage. And I agree. He's probably just taking the high road here and not trying to cry or spilled milk or whatever and try to play the, be the martial artist, you know, be the honorable martial artist and say, hey, I lost, you know, let's move on. And I appreciate that about it. But guess what?

We weren't in that fight, man. We can say that it was early. It was an early stoppage. But also. If I go back to that Lombard-Magny comparison that I'm talking about, I don't remember there's a fight that well, but I've watched it more than once. And there are times in that fight,

specifically that when there's a bunch of other examples we could come up with where if they stopped the fight, we would have been sitting here saying the same thing. Like, yeah, he probably would have finished him. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like we would have been, you know, saying, yeah, it wasn't a bad stoppage. And, you know, it was early, but, you know, we would have liked to see it go to

conclusion, right? We would have been saying those exact same things. And we could think of so many fights like that. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's the reality. Like I said, you got to give a guy or girl, for that matter, give them a chance to get out of it.

And again, we can sit here and say, like, we both believe Alex would have ultimately won. Maybe it was two or three more punches than it would have been over anyways. But you got to let those two or three. punches happen because you never know maybe maybe there's this long one in a million shot that yerry somehow slips out and gets a heel hook it's happened it can't happen and only in this sport do one and a million shots happen 10 and a million you know are 100 a million times right absolutely like i said that's the whole point like this is the most unpredictable sport on earth uh you can't you know can't not give him that chance you can't at least give him that opportunity to escape and maybe he

get to do something. Again, we can sit there and say all day, we don't think you would have, but that's the point of the sport. You never truly know. That's exactly. That's why we love the sport. Yeah, so let him go out, let him go out on the shield. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get a nice rank on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goaltenders, no, but chicken tenders, yes, because those are groceries, and we, deliver those too, along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other

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Yeah, what can you say about that? I mean, you said it perfect. I mean, this guy is just on cloud nine, and he's just doing all the right things and putting it together so well. And, you know, I just can't wait to keep watching them. You know, I don't know how long he's going to be able to hold this up for. I think there's kind of this whole elephant in the room where we keep thinking, like,

when is he going to get exposed, right? And he just keeps not letting it happen. Yeah, it's remarkable. And I know we say all the time, like we talk about, when we talk about Henry Sehudo, we say he's one of the greatest combat sports athletes of all time, because when you tack on what he did in wrestling as a gold medalist, which is a combat sport, in my opinion, and two-division champion in the UFC, that's an incredible accomplishment.

Now, would I call Henry Suita the greatest mixed martial artist of all time? No, because he didn't go on a knee. He doesn't have the longevity of John Jones or Demetrius Johnson or George St. Pierre, those kind of things. But when you encapsulate his entire athletic career, he's one of the greatest combat sports athletes of all time. Are we crazy and thinking that Alex Perey's got to start getting mentioned in that same conversation? Two-division glory champion, third ever glory Hall of Famer,

and now he's a two-division champion in the UFC 11 fights him to his MMA career. Again, I'm not saying he's the greatest MMA fighter. But can we not put him in that conversation, the greatest combat sports athletes? I mean, to do that in kickboxing and they come over and do this in MMA, that's insane. No doubt about it, period. Nothing more to say about it. He's absolutely in the top five

greatest combat sports athletes of all time. Yeah, I mean, it's just so rare, right? Like, it's one thing to find, like, to be a kickboxer. He was a two-time two-division champion kickboxer. And then he comes over and does the same exact thing in MMA. That's fucking ridiculous, bro. That's so ridiculous that he's done this. And somebody both tweeted earlier,

and I couldn't agree more. This is what we thought Gokon Saki was going to do, right? That's what we thought. And it turned out exactly the opposite. But, man, Alex Pereira is just, you can't say enough good things about it, man. And he's carrying himself the right way.

He's just doing the interviews the right way. He's calling out the right guys. He's doing just every single thing he's doing. He's taking all the right steps. He deserves everything. that he gets. Real quick, before you get out of here,

what did you think was call out, the Adasanya callout, good, bad, don't care, what'd you think? Perfect. Yeah.

I mean, you know, he's at 205 now. I assume he's probably going to stay there. Probably won't fight Adesania next. But,

you know, for the interview itself, like we're talking about it right now, right? Yeah. That's what the interview's for. You know, whether you get the call out or not,

I guess, is, you know, whether you really want it is, is kind of secondary. but look he's he made noise with it and that's what stars do yeah he said it was those last week's come to daddy out of sonya that was pretty good like that was pretty funny and otisanya otisanya saying he's living his head rent free uh it's a great rivalry and i have like

i and generally speaking i have no problem if they reignite it like obviously israel's not the champ right now middleweight it would be weird for him to get beat by sean strickland and go in and fight for the light heavyweight time but you could argue it was weird for Alex Pereira to win three fights and get a middleweight title shot with his biggest win being over Sean Strickland at the time. So sometimes rivalries supersede what actually makes sense. In this particular case, though, Matt, I would disagree and say that it should happen because Jamal Hill is out there.

He's going to come back early next year. You've got to do that fight. Like, you know, he went out like when the UFC needed him to step up when Yeri got hurt and he had to step in and fight Glover, he did. He beat the brakes off Glover to Shera. became champion. Of course, sadly, he tore his Achilles, but he's the guy. You got to do that fight. I mean, listen, and maybe Alex beats him, and then you really can do the Otisanya fight, but it's got to be Jamal Hill first. Like, it's not like he did anything wrong. He got hurt, and he gave up his title. He did the right thing. He did the same thing in the ear he did.

Like, I'm not going to hold up the division. I'm not going to, you know, make you fight for an interim away for me to come back. He gave up the title. He deserves it. Like, you got to give him the shot when he comes back. And then the Autosania, here's the thing about the Adasanya fight. The Adasanya fight supersedes. titles at this point. Like, that's what we're talking about with Jones and Steepey. Like, Jones and Steepi are going to fight for a UFC heavyweight title, but doesn't really matter in that fight. Like, it's John Jones versus Steepin-Meochich. Five rounds main event, that's all that really matters.

Like, we're not really that concerned about the title. Adasanya Pereira is kind of becoming that now, where there are just two guys who have a great rivalry. Are we really going to cry that there's not a title in life? It's a five-round main event on pay-per-view. I don't really care that much. so let Jamal Hill come fight him and I think Jamal Hill's

I think he's the real deal man he may go out there and knock out of Pereira he's that good and then just do Pereira out of signing at that point at 205 or do a catchweight of 195 I don't give a shit like it's just a great fight I don't need a title doesn't need to be on the line to raise the stakes of that fight

that's it and when you look at all the greatest champions in history almost all of them have had a great rival that's just one of those things that makes combat sports so great is when someone has a great rival that just elevates both of them. And, you know, you go back to like Ali Frazier,

you know, Sugar Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran. You know, you could go on for... Hagler-Herns, that's another one. Hagler-Herns, Gotti Ward. I mean, there's so many of them, right? You know, even in our sport, you know, like Connor didn't really get completely superstardom until he had auto, right?

Now they didn't fight more than once, but I wish that they would have. I think that would have been a great rivalry too. But yeah, having that rival, I think elevates even more. And that was what elevated the first two fights that they had, particularly the second one. And I think if they do a third one, I think it's huge. And I agree, I think they do it at $195.

Neither of them has to cut as much weight. It's not for a title. bring on to sonya back do it at 1.95. Let's make it a one-off. Yeah, and because there's a real world where Jamal Hill goes on beats Alex Prayer. I mean, let's just be honest. Like that is a realistic possibility because Jamal, I'm a big Jamal Hill believer. I think that dude's a monster.

There's a real world where he beats Alex Prayer, you know what I mean? But again, like I'm saying, like let him come back and fight. He deserves it. I know we always say don't say deserves. That's the word we should never mention. But in this case, I think everyone agrees. He's like, he did the right thing. He gave up the belt. He's injured.

You got to give him the shot when he comes back. You got to give him the chance to live in. That is a great fight too. Jamal Hill and Alex Pereira. Holy shit. That's an explosive fight. That is a barn burner right there. That is guaranteed fireworks right there.

Alex Pereer has nothing but big things ahead of him now, especially if he keeps winning. I mean, which is, I guess, any champion, right, if they keep winning. But, you know, this guy has the world, the sky is the limit in front of him right? now. He has a world of his fingertips. Like, he can do a lot of things right now. But again, that Jamal Hill fight, great fight. I would, I would be super excited to see that one. You know what mean? And we can still do the Adasania one down there. I'd like to see Otisanya. Like, I know it doesn't really, I know it doesn't really matter, but I would like to see him come back and get a

win just to like make sure, like, that was just a one-off bad night at the office with Sean Strickland, like, whatever, you know what I mean? And then book it again because it's, you know, I feel like we'd be, because if he had beaten Strickland and was still champion, like, then I think there's a real world where he jumps into a 205 pound title shot right now. Like there's a real world where Adasana just goes in and does it. Now he has a chance to become a two-division champ again. It's harder to sell it right now. Even though I think it's a great fight, it's a rival or all those things, it's a little harder to sell with him coming off that loss to Sean Strickland to let him go in and jump Jamal Hill for the title. You know what I mean?

What's Jamal Hill's timeline for return? When I interviewed him before the fight, he said second quarter, 2024. So that's, you know, we're talking like April, May, June in that range. So it's not that far away. And I don't think Pereira is going to fight again in freaking March. Like, they already have the first three cards the next year mapped out. We got the Strickland DuPlessy card. We got Ilya Tuporio and Alexander Volcanowski with O'Malley and Cheeto.

That's all the way through March. And then April's UFC 300, which we know is probably going to be Connor. He probably won't, if he fights on any of those cards, would be UFC 300 and be the co-made events of Connor, but otherwise it's probably going to be May or June, and that would be the time when Jamal would be back anyways. Gotcha. And because what would be the most tremendous thing here is

if Audissani comes back, beats Strickland, Alex Prairie beats Jamal Hill, and then they meet at 195 for the actual BMF title. I like that. I like that a lot. That would be great. But again, who knows?

I mean, maybe, like I said, they're trying to sell UFC 300 and make it the biggest card ever. Could you imagine Connor versus Chandler and Adasanya versus Pereira 3 is like the two main fights? Yeah, they're going to have a lot of options by that time. That's for sure. It's going to be a huge card. I'm hoping that I get on it. I think you should.

I've said before, I think you should be you and Jim Miller fight on that card. I think that would be the best fight we could make on USC 300. I'm going to shoot for it. Who knows? Yeah, but there's other matchups too. I mean, I don't want to just like single-out. Paul Felder's coming back, and you and Paul Felder be fun.

Yeah, I'm ready to fight, bro. Yeah, so there's all kinds of options. We'll see what happens. UFC 300, though. I like that idea. It's a historic card. We need the guys who made history on there. So you need to be on there.

Put Derek Lewis on there. Let him get a fight at UFC 3rd. I think that'd be kind of cool. Put Jim Miller on there. He's fought at UFC 100 and 200. You got to let Jim Miller fight on there. Yeah, make it like that kind of card, dude. That's the kind of card you just stack from top to bottom.

Like it is like can't miss prelims, can't miss main card. Like you got to put everybody on that card. Well, my mother can't miss fighter, so put me on there. That's right. That's absolutely right. Yeah, but you and Derek on there, as you guys continue to compete for that all-time knockout record because he's got one-up on you right now. You know,

like I think that'd be cool. Not saying you had to fight Derek Lewis. I'm saying like, you know, you and him on the same card. I want to fight Derek Lewis. Yeah, but you know what I'm saying? Like, that's the kind of history-making card you got to have. You have a lot. It's a big deal, man.

Yeah, yeah, dude, I'm all for it, man. I think it's going to be huge and I think it's going to be exciting. Like you said, there's so many great matchups, man. It's going to be 300 UFCs, man. It's hard to believe. I heard some people kind of complaining like you can't, you can't headline that car with Connor because Connor's not a champion. Him and Chandler's not a champion.

I was like, do you think the champions who would fight underneath that would give two shits about that? Because guess what? They're getting pay-per-view points. Do you think they really care that they're the country? do you think they really care that they're the co-main event of Connor McGregor if that thing sells two million pay-per-view buys and they get a chunk of that? Dude, dude, put me on the prelims as a champion if I'm going to get pay-per-view points on a Connor show, dude.

I will absolutely take that all day. Like, dude, there was a time. Wasn't it Tyron Woodley who fought on a bunch of Connor cards in a row? I think it was Tyron. And it's like, yeah, be smart, dude. He gives a shit of your headlining, dude. If you're getting pay-per-view points on a Connor card, absolutely fun on that card. Who cares that you're the co-main event?

Yeah, good call. but that would be kind of that would be strange to have them fight on 300 as the main event and not have not be for a title that would I do get where they're coming from on that I do I do but like I said I'm just thinking like big picture like you know you're here you know everyone fights for something different

but you are still trying to make money and put food on your family's table and if you're a champion and you're going to get a chunk of that pay-per-view you know what I mean like dude I like me personally like I don't care like you know like let me be the co-made event to Connor let him go out and sell it and let me get the seven-figure payday afterwards. That's me, though. Like I said, I'm greedy like that.

I wouldn't give a shit. So, you know, that's me. But I do understand. You know, you're a champion. You want to headline a card. And it's kind of weird that Connor is a non-champion and a lightweight, you know, would headline over Adasania and Pereira. You know what I mean?

That would be odd. But also, Adesania Pereira is a card that could sell in another. So you don't need Connor to sell that card. Like, obviously, Connor, make it that much bigger but i'm saying like auditsanya prayer is a big fight yeah maybe they even put it off a little bit and they wait for auditsyn prayer to be ready and maybe jones and stepe and maybe connor and chandler i mean all kinds possibilities yeah it can make it ridiculous but you know

i could also see the ufc spreading those out too right you know because ufc 300 is going to be big no matter what, right? Like, they really only need a headliner, and it's going to be big. I really it's going to be Connor. It's got to be. He's coming back. The timing works out with his whole USADA thing. It's that.

It's Connor Chandler. Let's just go. That's going to be the headliner for you. Unless something happens, somebody gets injured or something, it's going to be him and Chandler at 300. Like, that's, you know. And I get it. It's a historic fight.

It's a big fight. Connor is the name. I mean, is the face. So I don't care, really. I mean, it's cool. Like, you know, like, when Connor fights, it's a big. deal. So, you know, and that's as big a deal as you can get for UFC 300 is Connor McGregor. So because remember, remember, he was good. That's certainly an exciting fight, but, you know, just

in terms of the matchup itself, just because more because of Chandler, honestly, because he's a wild man in there and he's so athletic and everything. But realistically, I mean, there's so many fights that are more enticing to me for a card like that. Oh, I don't, I don't, I just, I agree. I'm just saying like in terms of name value in terms of selling pay-per-views like that's what's going to do connor's no one that compares to connor for that let's not forget connor was going to headline uc 200 remember that like he was going to fight aldo and then that whole thing fell apart and ended up fighting uh diaz c 202 instead but he was going to headline uc 200 so that's already been out there like that was the original plan for that card and then things changed and whatever happened but

yeah so him headling uc 300 is kind of appropriate in a way and the timing works out and you know they already booked three they're lining it up they book three championship fights to start the year to lead into the EOSC 300 when they got Connor like that's what they're banking on is Connor being back so again and I'm fine with that you know like it's cool like Connor's the name he's the draw

it's cool yep I'm right there with you yep maybe he'll maybe he'll walk out to Taylor Swift and his opponent can walk out to Kid Rock and we can have a good old throwdown to walkout songs of those guys maybe that's what'll happen there so you never know yeah as long as i don't get one i'm stuck in my head

hopefully i'll be backstage and i don't need those songs stuck in my head while i'm backstage trying to get ready you already told me that one time the lady gaga got stuck in your head when you were getting ready for a fight yeah i'm not interested in having that situation again i'm gonna tell next time you book a fight ufc turn i'm gonna text colman in the back i'm like colman for something matt don't tell matt i told you this but he said he really needs some taylor Swift to warm up to. Can you play some Taylor Swift back there for? I don't actually even know any Taylor Swift songs.

I don't know if I've ever even heard them. Dude, I guarantee if you heard one, you would know it because they're everywhere. Like, you would just like, oh, yeah, I heard that like randomly walking. Isn't your daughter into Taylor Swift? She's got to be in to Taylor Swift. Yeah, but she don't play it at my house. Like, that's the thing. I don't have an opportunity to listen to it.

Like, I'm at my house, my gym, my car. All right. I'll tell you. Tell you right now. We talked about this before. You started golfing because you're kids. are in the golf you went to start getting in football because your kids were into football three four years from now daughter's a little older you're gonna take her to a taylor swift

concert i could just see it happening right now you're gonna be like yeah i went this fucking taylor swift concert last night it was a madhouse not making you look for you went to you went to you went to you went to you didn't you go to the barbie movie didn't you go to that no i thought you said you did we go of the Barbie movie. No, we went to was the ice cream place. I took her there and there was like 10 girls dressed up like Barbie movie people.

They weren't dressed up like Barbie. I don't know what you call them, but they were hauling some funny Barbie movie outfit and I was like, what in the hell is? I didn't know, I never even heard of the Barbie movie. I was like, what in the hell is going on? You are going to take her to a Taylor Swift concert a few years. I'm telling you right. It's dude, it's going to happen. I'm just, just get and start planning the trip right now you're going to take her to a taylor swift show i need slayer to do another tour so i can take her there first uh yeah get you got to listen dude did did you see i don't know

how much paid attention to music stuff do you know who megan the stallion is a rapper do you know she is did you see she did a did you see she did a remix with spirit box the metal band oh wow dude it's amazing it's amazing it's fucking awesome it's so good because um Courtney LaPlante, I think is the lead singer's name of Spirit Box. They're amazing. I love Spirit Box. Yeah, they did a remix with Megan the Stallion. It's her rapping and them doing the singing.

It's fucking awesome. I guess I'll check it out. Yeah. Do you remember back of the day we were kids, the Judgment Day soundtrack? Do you remember that Judgment Night, the Judgment Night soundtrack? When it was all the rock bands who did it with rappers, remember they had like House of Pain and I care who it was. but it was like all like, it was like the first real iteration of like rock rap when it was like the rock bands playing music. Like Anthrax did a track with Run DMC or something like that.

Like do you remember that soundtrack? The Judgment Nine Sound didn't remember that. Yeah. Maybe this is the restarted that with Megan the Steinian doing a songwood spirit box. I guess I'll check it out. I guess you talked me into it. Yeah. Listen, if you can give kid rock a chance, you can give this song a chance.

I promise it's worth your time. Okay. Okay. I'll take it out, but I got to think if I can, I don't know, maybe Pantera for her first concert. Yeah, although it's not the real Pantera anymore, though. It's still a Pantera.

It is, it is. Dude, you know what you need to do? You know what you need to do? I know you're not like a huge social media, dude. Go on TikTok, man. There's a lot of metal bands that get like real hyped up on that. I love Bad Omen's. Bad Omen's is one of my favorite bands,

and they got huge on TikTok. Like, they went massive. on TikTok. When I saw them, when I saw them the first time, it was sold out, but it was a smaller arena. When I saw them this last time, it was at Kim Bilive here in Columbus and it was sold out, holy shit. It was so packed. It was like the most sold out show I've been to it a long time. Like I was like to the point where I was like elbow and people trying to find room. A nice was outside or inside? Outside. And I was down on the floor. Like I was down in like the pit area. So like I'm really battling for space down there. It was so crowded. But they go on the only time I go on TikTok.

TikTok is I upload a lot of my guitar videos on there, me playing. Okay. So I, but I've never actually scrolled through TikTok before. Do you should like it's weird like because there is a lot of weird stuff on there. But like music wise like I've discovered some bands on there. But there's some bands that have blown up. Bad Omen's is the perfect example. Like they got huge off TikTok.

I don't even know how to do the searches on there or anything. You just literally scroll. You just press swipe up and you scroll and it basically it's like an algorithm just like any. anything else. Like, it'll show you, like, if you just swipe through something, don't pay attention to it, they'll bring you less of that. But if you stay and listen to, like, a Slayer video, then you'll notice when you start swiping, they'll bring more Slayer videos than things like Slayer to you. So it's just an algorithm like that. Like, you can search for things on there, too. But if you watch something, like, oh, man, here's, here's Bad Omen's playing a live show.

And it's like a three-minute clip. And you watch the whole clip, you're next, within the next, like, six videos, you're going to see another Bad Omen's video. They're going to bring you back to whatever you're actually watching. It's pretty, it's, it's a little scary, how intuitive it is, but it works. Like, I watch a lot of, like, I'm a big Bingles fan. I'm very sad today because the Bengals lost. But the Bengals, like, I watch a lot of Bingles stuff on there. Constantly, I get bombarded with Bingles stuff.

Because I watch Bingles stuff, and then immediately I just get, like, a Biggles video, like every fourth video. Interesting. Are they reading your mind on there, too? That's what I'm saying. It's a little intimidating what they're actually doing in terms of, like, the algorithm. But yeah, like, it works. And I enjoy it, dude.

I'm not going to lie. Like, I think TikTok's my. favorite social media platform right now. Like it's actually, because it's actually fun. Like there's comedy clips and music and stuff, and it's actually like kind of fun to go through it. It's like entertaining versus, you know, just photos or reading people talking shit on Twitter.

Well, maybe I'll check it out. But if you ever want to check out my guitar shit on there, it's that I am the immortal. So there you go. I don't stay up on it too much. But that's kind of what I opened my TikTok for was just to upload my guitar cover videos because like, My Instagram feed and Twitter and stuff,

I try to keep it a little bit more on brand, you know? But I guess that's a little bit of my brand. I don't know. Well, you won't. My TikTok is all for horror movie shit, so I don't talk M.M.A. over there either. Okay.

My handle on TikTok is Damon of the Dead. I'm all horror movies over there. So I don't do any, I don't do any MMA over there either. It's all me talking horror movies. So I'm in the same kind of the same boat as you. But yeah, dude, it's fun. It's like I said, I enjoy it.

What's the last song you learned on guitar? actually I just did a base recently I put it on Instagram you might have seen it where I did Thorzine shuffle by government mule Oh yeah I know government mule Yeah I think I did see that actually Yeah it's actually really hard But I mean I'm not a bass player

Like I just started playing around with it It is like a completely new skills I had to learn like finger picking Had to learn Like you hold the strings different Like my fingers were actually like getting tired From doing it and like my calluses Weren't build up the same

it was just very awkward but it was a lot of fun man and i've been playing around with the base a lot lately i'm gonna start fucking around with some primus and maybe some flea and stuff it's so much fun yeah are you uh are you coming up here in december to see uh your boys musuga down in cincinnati you going i god damn hope so what's the date on uh December 6 musuga and in flames oh i love inflames too i'm going i'm going i'll be honest i like I'm a show guy. I'm mostly going for In Flames, though, because I love In Flames.

Dude, I know the drummer. We can meet him and hang out with him. There you go. See, there we go. It's down to Andrew J. Brady. Have you been to the Andrew J. Brady Center down there in Cincinnati?

I've never been to a concert in Cincinnati. But funny story, this is how I met in Flames, right? So they were playing with All That Remains at the Newport. And so I know Phil from All That Remains. So he got us, you know, up on backstage, right?

So me and a couple of my buddies were hanging out, you know, and it's a very, very, like, small backstage. It's not really a backstage. There's room for, like, two or three people. My one guy, he was just drunker than hell. He said, we're standing behind the band or off to the side. And my guy was just so drunk. And he ended up falling out onto the stage. So the drummer stops in.

And he's like, you know, yelling at security. He's like, get him the fuck out of here. And they looks over. And he was like, Matt Brown? He's like, if you stay up here, get your guy out of here. So they ended up getting him out of there. And then we connected after that. Yeah. So we've stayed friends ever since.

I know that backstage here. I went there for a hate breed because I know Jamie Jost, obviously. And so I went there backstage for that. It is a really small area. Actually, that was actually the concert. I got to meet Howard Jones from Kill Switch Engage and, obviously, his new band. What is the new? Why am I forgetting the name?

Light the torch. The devil you knows what it was. called it it changed the light to torch i am a huge howard jr i love howard he's like my favorite metal singer and so i met him backstage i was i was actually outside with jamie we're just bullshit and howard comes over and i was like howard that was so cool so yeah dude so super i don't get starstruck often that's one time i got starstruck so i was like howard fucking jones dude this guy's awesome so uh dude yeah let's go mishuga and in flames dude this is a good concert that's a real good concert yeah i'm I'm totally down.

I love Mushoogia. They're one of my favorite bands in history. Yeah, that venue is really cool, too. I saw the Trinity of Terror tour down there, which was in Ice Nank Hills and Motionless and White and Blackmail Brides. I saw them down in Cincinnati last September, I think, is when it was. But maybe it was, I can't remember. It was a while ago.

It was last year, I think, or earlier this year. It was early this year. But it's a really cool venue. It's right by the Bengals Stadium. I actually parked in the Bingles, like, underground parking lot, and then just walk up to the Andrew J. Brady Center. It's a really cool venue. Very cool, bro. So, all right. Enough

music talk. We talked about Kid Rock and fucking Taylor Swift and now we're on In Flames. People are like, is this an MMA podcast? What are you guys talking about over here? Matt, where can people check out? They want to support you. Always, as always, want to give people the chance to support the guy who does this show. So where can people find more stuff

that you got and things are supporting you? Well, the same as my TikTok. It is at I Am the Immortal. Instagram and Twitter at the Immortal Coffee on Instagram and Twitter. Hang it up. There you go. Folks, we appreciate you tuning in.

As always, make sure you check us on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple, Podcast, Spotify. And of course, over on the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I'm Damon Martin. We'll see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Writer. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then.

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