MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: UFC 325 Reactions, Matt Brown Explains Why Paddy Pimblett Should Fight Benoit Saint Denis Next

Episode Date: February 3, 2026

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin discuss the fallout from UFC 325 where Alexander Volkanovski dispatched Diego Lopes in even more impressive fashion than their first fight and where he now ranks among the featherweight GOATs. Plus Benoit Saint Denis took out Dan Hooker but Brown argues it’s Paddy Pimblett who should be calling for that fight now after his loss at UFC 324. Plus we’ll talk about Shavkat Rakhmonov’s latest injury setback and much more… Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Back to the Fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown and Matt. We are now two shows into the Paramount Era. We have knocked out another quote-unquote pay-per-view.

And Alexander Volcanowski, of course, defended his time. successfully with a pretty lopsided performance over Diego Lopez and Benoit St. Denis put a pretty good beat down on Dan Hooker in the co-main event. Overall, not a bad card. Maybe not the, not the biggest named card in the world, but, you know, another night of fights. So, Matt, what do you think? I mean, I guess they're all pay-per-views now, right, since we're paying for all of them. We just get a lot more for a lot less. Yeah, exactly. You're not paying $80. I mean, don't get me wrong. Like, I'm not trying to knock the card last night, but I would have, like, $80 for that car. It would have been a rough one. Like, that would have been a bit of a stretch.

But like now it's like, oh, you know what, for, you know, $8.99 or whatever, I can, I can deal with that. Yeah, I don't think it would have sold that well with Vulcan Lopez being, I guess you call it immediate rematch, right? It was at least the next fight rematch. So I don't know how that sells that well. I don't think too many people were overly excited about that fight to begin with. But, man, it sucks. Lopez is, he's just like right there. Like, I think it was kind of exactly what we had talked about before. He needs a couple more fights. It's like I think the first fight showed clearly, like he's not ready for Volcanovsky.

And he just proved it again last night. Like he's not there yet. You know, either Volcanowski needs to age out or Diego needs a few more fights or maybe both. Yeah. I mean, I said this when they made the fight. It was one of the most pointless rematches I'd ever seen made because it wasn't like there wasn't other contenders, you know, vying for that title. Like you obviously had Moussar and you had Lerone Murphy. and why they had this weird obsession with putting Diego back in there after he beat John Silva.

I mean, good win, but John Silver was like, you know, fringe top 10. Like, I don't really know what we were supposed to learn from that fight. I forgot. He fought John Silver in the meantime. He did. But Volcanovsky didn't fight anybody. He literally did back-to-back fights with Diego Lopez. But I'm just like, it was a pointless rematch to start with because, yes, beating John Silva is impressive.

But John Silver was not Volcanowski in terms of, like, style. If he had gone out there and done that, I guess another, like, you know, just top-notch striker and maybe similar is. style to Volcanowski. Maybe I'd say okay, but no. And then like now you've eliminated one of your young contenders. And by the way, the rematch went worse than the first fight. At least in the first fight, like Diego had a couple moments. He stunned, he stunned Volk a couple times. You know, I think he got to drop him maybe one time. He dropped him briefly in this fight for like a flash knockdown. Now he really knocked down. He dropped to a knee and got right back up. That was it.

I had a 5045. Like, I didn't think it was that close. And I'm like, it was pointless beforehand, Matt, but now it's even more pointless because you just eliminated Diego Lopez from title contention as long as Volk's champion and I guess the way they're leaning is it's looking like they're going to do Mosa versus Lorone Murphy maybe in March in London

and the winner that's going to get Volk but it's like why do we like there was no purpose to this fight yeah yeah it's kind of odd you know but man how about Volcanovsky though right like I mean this guy just keeps on trucking man and keeps on racking up wins and he's just so

good man you got to give we got to keep giving all the credit to him man you know he keeps showing up and keeps performing well i mean how old has he got to be at what 38 now 37 yeah 37 i think during 38 this year yeah yeah what an awesome guy man and like just a good guy all around too right i mean he doesn't cause a lot of trouble like says the right thing shows up fights every time you know he's lost a couple but man you got to give so much credit to him you know lost at the higher weights right like you know you got to give a ton of credit to him man I kind of wish, like, there's part of me, and I, you know, I don't want to be, like, revisionist history here, but, like, there's part of me because that fight with Islam was so good, the first fight. Like, that was his high level as mixed martial arts as you're going to find this more.

Like, we compared, we talked about the last week with Gage you and Pinbull. Like, that was, like, the exact opposite of, like, an incredible fight, great war, but it was just so skilled, right? Like, compared to just a slugfest. And Volk lost, very close fight. He gave Islam problems and no one really given Islam problems with up to that point. and then he did that short-notice fight and he got knocked out, head kick knocked out, and then he got knocked out by Ilya.

Now I'm not saying he wouldn't have lost both those fights regardless. I have no idea, but it's almost like, man, I kind of wish he hadn't bothered it. Maybe he had just lost to Islam and said, you know what, took my shot I missed, I go back to Fed of Weight and just kind of stick around it because when he had his next fight, he fought, he was Yair.

He fought, Islam fought Y'iore and beat the hell out of Yair. And then he did that short-notice fight with Islam and then he did the quick turnaround. I'm not saying Ilya wouldn't have knocked him out either way, but you just, I can't not have that little thought in the back of my head of him making that quick turnaround after the knockout and then fighting basically like four months later. But I wonder like what would be saying about Volk if he had never, I mean, this is revision this history, but I'm like, man, like, it was on such an incredible run.

And like, he's 37 and now he's a defendant, he's now defended that title eight total times between two, you know, two reins. I mean, that is so incredibly impressive. Yeah. And I mean, the fact is, like when you lose, no matter what, no matter how you lose or who you loose too like it's a knock on your record you know and you know you got guys like kabib who you know retired early and you know he's considered one of the greatest of all the time we have no idea what happened if you would have kept fighting right i mean you got like the even like like the john jones

who you know hasn't really been anybody significant for a while even though i mean he's won and one handedly you know don't want to take anything away from him but you know those uh like you said had he just lost islam came back and kept winning that definitely would have raised to stock a lot more. I mean, that's a, yeah, that's an interesting thought that I'd never really crossed my mind before. Let me ask you this, Matt, because this is the question that came up a lot last night, and I know Dean Thomas talked about this, I've talked about this, and I know it's always subjective. There's no right or wrong answer, but I'm curious your opinion because I always value a fighter's opinion most of all. Volcanazi is now...

Some fighter. Well, not just some fighter. Volk has now tied Jose Aldo for the most title defenses of Fedway. his wasn't consecutive. It was eight total, and Jose had eight total. But the debate now rages on who is the greatest featherweight of all time. Now, I've said for the last year, I thought it was Volk. And not just because the title defenses, but because he beat Aldo head to head. And he has three wins for Max Holloway, who is, to me, the third best featherweight of all time.

Like, you know what I mean? The hierarchy for me is Volk, Aldo Holloway. And you could argue Holloway over Aldo a little bit because he does have two knockouts over him. but I know everyone loves Joseo and I love Joseo I think we all love Joseo but I'm just like at this point when you look at the resume

and you look at you know taking out max three times and one fight was closed the other two were not particularly closed the last one in particular was really not close I understand Diego Lopez is a little green things like that but then you just look at like other things he's done

taken out Aldo earlier before he got to the title uh yeah ir Rodriguez Brian Ortega like it's a super impressive resume and compared to Aldo you know Aldo has a couple and they're like, I don't know that I put Mark Hominick in like the all-time, you know, Kenny Floreen at Featherweight. Like, Kenny Floreen was pretty great lightweight, but he basically killed himself to get to two fights of featherweight and had one fight and went to the title

fight. I'm just saying, like, my opinion, Volk is the greatest featherweight of all time. I know it doesn't really matter, but I'm curious your opinion, Matt, like, who do you rank is the greatest featherweight of all time? I'll tell you, I want to say Jose Otto. I like watching Jose Otto more. I like his style more. I like, you know, his fights. Man, but it's Volcan, now. I think it's hard to argue against that. You know, the level of competition is higher now than it was then.

Yeah, you know, I mean, that's like you said, just being Max Holloway alone almost, how beat him one time almost already ranks you up there. You know what I mean? Like you're already knocking on the door if you just beat Max once, but nonetheless, three times. And, yeah, it's a, you know, it's unfortunate because I want to say, not unfortunate, but, you know, I want to say Jose. Like, I want to make an argument for him, but I can't.

I mean, Aldo did some incredible things, no doubt about it. Absolutely. A couple wins over Chad Mendez. You're that first one, especially when you get that knee, that knockout. But, like, and I think there's a little bit of, like, the flyweight thing going on where I've talked about, like, the reason why I don't rank Demetre's Johnson higher on the goat list is because when he came in, flyway just wasn't as good. I don't care how you paint it.

It just wasn't as deep, wasn't as developed at his zes. is now. And while featherweight did exist in the WEC, it just takes time for the division to really grow and prosper and evolve. And I think what we're dealing with now is just a better division than we were dealing with in, you know, 2010 or 2009 or whatever. And, you know, like I said, Mark Harmon, good fighter. I don't know if he's really going to, you know, I don't know if I'd really put him on anyone's list. Kenny Florian, like I said, very accomplished lightweight, his federate career has two fights. And he wasn't really a featherweight. I think he'd tell that he was never a fed of weight. You know, he'd be a fed of a federal weight.

you know, he beat the Korean zombie, which at the time I think his win over the Korean zombie is probably more meaningful than Volk's win over Korean zombie because, you know, Korean zombie's kind of at the end of his career at that point. But still, okay, let's just go. And as much as Volk got, he did get knocked out by Ilya in a second round.

He did get knocked out. But he didn't get Connor McGregor. He didn't get a 16, 13 second knockout, whatever that was, which I know. I'm not trying to totally. I'm just saying you've got to look at the whole body of work. You know what I mean? And Aldo lost to Connor, and yes,

he did get the title back with that winner. Eager, which Frankie Eggers is a good win as well. But, like, I just, there's just something, Volk has, I think the difference is Volk has just not really been in many close fights. Like, he's, you know, he's had a couple of moments here and there. And yes, he did get knocked up by Lilley, but that's the one blemish on his record. Outside of that, he's been perfect at FNO8. Yeah, and well, like you said, I mean, it's debatable.

It's always subjective when you talk about who's better than the other. But, you know, I mean, a lot of times, you kind of got to say, like, well, unless they fought, then it's not really. debatable and folk read them so you know that's you say you got that too but you'd have to like really dissect their records and and kind of go through all you know kind of like we're doing now right and and talk about and then it's still going to be subjective but i i just i don't see where you could really rank anybody above volk right now man i mean like you said the full body to work and you know everything he's done and you know i mean i think it's pretty amazing what he's done and

And yeah, I'm going with Volk personally. But if someone comes in and says, hey, I'm Jose out all the way. Okay. You know, again, I think you kind of got to make an argument for that, though, where it's not so hard to reason that Volk is the number one. Yeah, I mean, you've got to look at the whole record. And, you know, Jose has two knockout losses to Max Holloway. He has a decision, lost to Volk in a non-title fight.

And then you look at Volk, he has three wins over. Max Hollowey is a winner Ovaldo. Those things matter. Like it or not, those things do matter. And I hate the idea that, you know, a guy keeps going after his prime and we just like, oh, those fights don't matter. Yes, they matter. Like, you know, like, I think Anderson Silva is one of the greatest of all time. But I won't rank him above John Jones because I can't forget that, you know,

the authority, probably should have quit. Probably should not have kept going after like maybe that Nick Diaz fight or whatever. Like, you know what? Maybe it's better if I walk away or not. And by the way, I'm not faulting for that. But you can't just ignore it. You can't say it never happened. yeah he got knocked like josie got knocked up by connor mcgregor he did it did happen we can't ignore that and he did bounce back get a couple big wins after that and then he moved to bantamweight had a good run i'm not holding his bantamweight losses against him but he has fedamac losses

those matter you know what i mean he got knocked out twice by max holloway and volk has three wins over that guy like come on like that's it's not a knock on josialdo i'm just saying like it's hard for me to not put vault number one when you look at those kind of stats same yeah and that's kind of stats same yeah and that's It's all, like I said, it's all subjective, but man, I want to say Jose, man. I really wish I could. I wish I could find that argument for him. I love Jose and the way he fights. And he was an inspiration for me coming up. I remember watching him fighting WEC at the Hard Rock in Las Vegas. And I think it was Mike Brown to see who he was fighting.

And man, I was like, who the hell is this guy? He's freaking awesome, you know? And yeah, I just hadn't heard him before that, right? and my manager at the time he took me there and was talking up Jose and I said, man, like, this guy's going to be amazing. And, of course, he did go on to be pretty amazing. But, man, I don't, I just don't know how you justify going against Volk on that, you know? I really can't find it.

Let me ask you this, Matt, because coming out of that fight, Volk had some pretty strong comments last night at the Post-Fite Presser saying that he feels he has a responsibility to fight the best guy in the world, which you could tell he was a little. I don't say upset, but a little bummed to like he didn't get Mosa or Laron and he had to go out there and do that again. Like, credit to him, he didn't lose motivation. He beat Diego even more dominantly than he did the last time. But he pretty much was like, we got to get this going.

It's got to be one of those guys. Now, it looks like Moussar's going to fight Laron in March. That's the rumor. I'm not going to ask about that fight specifically because that's got to play out, but I'm curious in your opinion, Matt, between those two guys, between Mosa and Lerone. And I'll throw in Jean Silva, because John Silva's trying to, you know, get a title shot.

he's not going to get one, but he's trying to... But out of everybody at Fedaway right now, that's currently at Feddeway, not bringing Ilya back or anything, who do you believe has the best chance of dethrone and Volk at this point? Because he's looked so good since coming back, and I mean, I know it's only two fights, but he's looked good in both those fights. And Diego's a very dangerous guy, like it or not.

But out of all the guys we have out there, Lorone, Moe, Moussar, Jean-Silva, whoever, who do you think actually has the best chance of beating Vol? Because I think that's got to be the answer of who deserves the shot, right? Yeah, and I hate, I kind of don't like that, I don't hate it, but I don't like that those two are fighting, right? Those are the two containers you got. Let them fight them back to back if you have to, or if one of them ends up eating vault, then they fight after that. So, you know, I kind of don't like when they do that when they, you know, I get, you know, having a number one contender match, but I feel like both those guys have done a lot of good things and they're, they're ready for to have a title fight. but with that said man that's

such different style matchups for Volcker right like you got Movesar who's pretty much a wrestler right like that's what you're going to expect right he's going to try to take him down ground and pound like that's the whole game plan you got Lerone Murphy who's such a good counterpuncher right he's a little calmer and patient

and will take his time like I would kind of lean towards Murphy because I think like um Moussar is a really good wrestler but like we've seen Valk deal with the wrestlers really well to be fair we've seen him deal with the strikers really well too so it's not you know but I could see

you know Mosef Ler kind of has to be offensive to win that fight right like he has to get a take down has to keep Vulk down we've seen that um vault can handle that right he does very well against those styles usually I mean he went five rounds with Islam like I don't don't think Mossar can do what Islam did in my opinion. Lerone, on the other hand, like he will milk out those five rounds, right? And stay safe for five rounds.

And he gets, you know, a couple good shots every round, wins the round, he's happy. So that's why I would kind of lean towards Lerone. But honestly, I kind of think Volk beats both of them. You know, I wouldn't really favor either one against Volcanowski. assuming that he can maintain the intensity and pace that he's maintained. That's interesting. You say that because, like, you're right.

Lorone Murphy's a really good counterstriker. And until he fought Aaron Pico, that had kind of been his thing. He just kind of outpointed guys. Was the most excited guy he would win. I mean, he still countered Aaron Pico, right? Like, Aaron was the aggressor. You know, he didn't attack him at all.

Like, he just got overaggressive and Lerone made him pay the price for it. And here's the only problem is this, is that Volka is also an incredible counterstriker. So it's kind of like, would you end up with like the staring memes where they're just like looking at each other waiting for one of them to do something and just, you know, I almost hate that a title fight would come down to a boring round or a lacklust around and one guy just lands like two more punches. It's like, come on. Like, you know, I almost hate those things happen. So I see where you're coming from.

And I do. And like I am such a fan of Moussar. And I felt like that guy's just gotten a raw deal this entire time. Like he's just, you know, sat out, not getting matchups. Because they don't like his style. And I'm just like, that shouldn't matter, man. Like, it shouldn't matter. He's the number one guy, rank number one.

I mean, Volk was calling for it. He was asking for Moser. He was like, give me Moser, give me Moser. Like, no, no, here's Diego again. And it just, like, part of me is just like, I feel bad for the guy. And you're right. Stylistically, Islam couldn't get Volk down and hold him down. And Islam is clearly a bigger, better wrestler, at least, you know, based on what we've seen body of work than Mosa.

But I think just stylistically, like, we just saw Diego go out there and strike with Volk and it didn't end very well for him. anyone outside of Ilya that's gone out there and struck with Volk has not turned out very well for them. So it's almost like I'd almost like to see Mosa get it just because at least I know he's going to try something different. Like he's going to try to grab him. He's going to try to bully him around the ring, around the octagon.

And if he does get him down and can hold him down, then boy, we've got a different situation on our hand. So like, I'm not saying he has a better, you're probably right in terms of he has a better chance, but I'm like, I really want to see Mosa just because we haven't seen that style of fight. We have seen Volk fight Lerone Murphy styles many times.

I do I agree that Moussar is more deserving like he should he should have already got the fight he should have been him and not Diego I mean I think this is like very clear across the board here but again I that's why I would say LeRong probably has a better chance so it's like you know like he will stare at you for five rounds and land one shot to win the round you know like if that's what happens he's perfectly content with that and I like I would I would venture to say like Vogue would probably be the more antsy one to, to be aggressive in that fight. Yeah.

He's probably the one that would start taking a couple of chances, getting bored, right? He's not used to guys not fighting them. And I feel like Lerun wouldn't be afraid to do that. But, you know, again, I would pick Vogue to beat either one of them. I'd think he's just levels above each of them, or at least they level above each of them. and, you know, it's going to be a very difficult night for either one of them, I think. But, yeah, I mean, that's, again, at his age, if he can keep, you know, the intensity and the training and be sharp and prepared like he has been, I think he beats both of them. Yeah, I would, I would lean Volk beating both of them.

If you're forced me to pick, I would lean Mousar maybe just because stylistically, at least he offers something a little different. whereas Murphy is in a lot of ways a carbon copy of Vogue, but in my opinion, just not as good. You know what I mean? Like, he's good, but he's just not as good as Volk. So I would see, you know, that's the tough part too.

It's like Lerone, you know, as good as he is, he hasn't fought the top, top guys yet, right? We haven't seen him against Max Holloway. You know what I mean? Like, we don't really know where he lies, you know? I mean, I think he's deserving enough of a title shot coming off a big win over Pico. But that's, but realistically, I mean, Pico hasn't done anything in the UFC, you know what I mean?

So it's kind of, we're kind of just banking on how good we think Pico is, you know, based off his Belvoir run, right? So it's like, you know, if they made Lerone, like I think it's the right fight for Lerone to have one more fight before he fights for a title. I just wish it wasn't Moussar. Like I think Moussar, blah, blah, Moussar should be having a title fight next. And, you know, I'd personally, if I was matchmakers, I'd put Lerone against somebody else. and, you know, give him, make him do one more fight before a title shot, and Movis start would be right in there. Yeah, let Lorone fight Jean Silva. You know, that dude ain't going to counterfeit.

Yeah, there you go. He ain't going to stay on the outside and counterfight with you. He's going to come attack like a bulldog or like a pit bull. That's a great call. That'd be a great fight. That'd be a very interesting fight. Yeah. Now, the co-main event, Matt, we saw Benoit St. Denis go out there and get another impressive stoppage win.

He had a couple early moments where Dan Hooker was tagging him and got him with a couple knees and things like that. ultimately Benoit overwhelmed him and took him down and beat him up on the ground. And that's a couple losses in a row for Dan Hooker. Wrong side of 30. You hate hearing that kind of stuff, but it kind of feels like we're kind of on that downward spiral a little bit with Dan. Benoit's surging, though, man, coming out and doing what he did to Marisa Rufi, who obviously got a big win on Saturday night against Hafeel Fizzis, which I did not see that coming. And he went out there and put him away.

St. Denis is now won, I think, four in a row, all by finishes, took out Dan Hooker, very impressive fashion and I think like he's a now a player you got to put bin while st. Deney in that conversation when you're talking about like he's not he's not armin yet he's not he's not geishy yet but like it feels like he deserves one of those fights and I feel like he called armin I'm like you're not going to give armin a shot which is complete bullshit but okay like saint anie and armin that's an interesting fight give me that one I guess I said give him patty man I don't know that's Is that helpful to him or a punishment to Patty? I mean, look, Paddy's supposedly a top guy.

He just fought for an interim title. So give him Patty. Let's see who is the top guy here. Yeah. You're in the UFC. You know, he just fought for an interim title. Like, there shouldn't be anybody that Patty doesn't fight, right? I mean, you just fought for an interim title, buddy.

Like, these are all fair matchups. That means you were thought to be better than all these other guys. So go for it, you know. And I think St. Denis deserves it. You know, he stepped up and he's fought. Like, I think, you know, he lost to Dustin Poirier, which was, you know, his kind of first foray into the top five guys, right? And, yeah, I mean, what a tough fight that was, right? But that gives him another chance to get his name out there.

And he's an exciting fighter, too. He's worth, you know, giving that kind of fight to, right? where he beats Patty, like it gives him a lot of, a lot of star name value, I guess, right? He gets his name out there a lot, and people start to really know who he is, and you find out who Patty is. Right?

I think we need to find out who Patty is. Well, you said last week, and I tend to agree with you because, you know, whenever a guy has a lot of hype behind him and maybe not the resume to match it, because like it or not, Patty didn't have the resume. I mean, Michael Chandler's good, but that's not a top five win. It's just not. and then to lose to Justin the way he did which was a pretty lopsided fight. It wasn't close

really. He had a couple moments. He showed a great chin but he wasn't really in the fight in terms of like really putting Justin in danger. And I brought that up to you last week. I said, did Patty get fraud checked? And he said, I don't think you got fraud checked. You just lost to a better guy. But if you're trying to prove to the world that you are a legit top

five lightweight, you got to fight another top five lightweight. And if Patty goes out there and loses to Binwa San Deney, then yeah, that fraud check thing's going to come up because we're like, okay, we're just pushing out a lot of high who wasn't really there. But if he can beat him in a while of St. Deney, then you can say, yeah, he's legit.

Because that was the biggest problem with Patty getting that shot was he didn't really earn it. He didn't really deserve it based on his resume. Now, you know, you defend, almost he defended him, but you were like, I don't take that as a fraud check. If he loses to St. Denis, then we're going to start talking about,

like, what's hype versus reality with Patty Pimbley. Exactly, right? Because we know where St. Deney is, right? Losing the Desta Poirier, okay, like you weren't there, you know, beating Dan Hooker. Okay, we got to, we pretty narrowed down.

where you're at now, right? Like we, that doesn't mean that he can't surpass where he was before, right? And, you know, because he's, hopefully he's getting better every day. But Patty,

we just don't know where he's at. So, and matchup-wise, I actually think it's a really great matchup, too. I mean, you got, you know, St.

Denise is a little wild on the feet, right? But comes forward, both of great grappling, right? It could be a great grappling battle. But, you know, San Dese hits hard and comes forward,

like, fights hard. I think it's, a great matchup. I should be a matchmaker. And if you're Patty Pimble, that's what you need to get you. That's what you need to ask for, right? Like, you can't say, oh, give me the number 12 guy, give me the number 13 guy. Like, if you want to prove that you're worthy of that, I think he actually, like, in the UFC rankings, he was ranking the top five, which is ridiculous. I mean, come on. Like, no offense, but, like,

how do you get there without beating anyone in the top 10? Michael Chandler's not even in the top 10. Like, how do you just jump to number five without a single win over a rank? And the last I looked, he was number seven, but it was still. Yeah, still, but I mean He went from like 16 to 7 by meeting Michael Chandler. Yeah, but if you're Patty Pimblit, like why would you want to go down again?

Like take on to Binwasseignee. Take on, like, I know he's not going to get armed. That would be dumb. But I'm saying, like, you should be calling for those kind of fights because that question is now being raised. Like, you did not look like you were on Justin Gachie's level. You just, he didn't. Like, he got, he survived and he showed a great chin,

but he did not look like he deserved to be in there with Justin Gachie at that point. And so if I'm Patty Pimble, I'm like, give me Benoit St. Denis. Give me the toughest fight. The guy who's on the street, the guy who's a proven finisher. And if he beats St. Denis, then we can have a whole other conversation and say, hey, maybe he just got there a little too early. Like, you got to get you a little bit early, but he's going to build his way back up. If he loses the St. Denis, then we can say, well, you know what?

Maybe Patty just isn't that dude. Exactly. We need to see where he's at. And it gives BSD a chance to continue the run that he's on, right? And, you know, if he beats Patty, he gets a top five fight next. Yeah. I mean, I mean, losing Dust Poy's nothing to be ashamed of, right? I mean, that's a, you know, that's a tough fight.

So, yeah, so, you know, give him another, you know, how many is he won now in a row? Three, four. Four in a row all finishes. Yeah, four in a row. Yes, it's like, okay, you weren't there before. You're on your way back. I think it's a perfect matchup. Yeah.

And like I said, it gives Patty a chance to prove he's legit because there's going to be there are those questions like did he get fraud checked well you got into you beat that guy no one can say you got a fraud check you just lost like that's okay there's nothing wrong with losing by the way it's just when you haven't really when you really haven't battled your way to get in that position people are going to be much more critical of you um like no one question like when dustin when dust a one fight were bin was saying they gave him a title shot against Islam did it make a whole lot of sense no but then you look at dustin's body of work and you look at who was really available and

like yeah okay we're going to give it to dust so we get it you know what I mean Patty were like why Like this is just like If it was Ilya it was based upon the rivalry They have with Justin you're like why Why are we doing this exactly? Why isn't it Justin and Armin like you're gonna force an interim title to be out there Why is Armand not involved

So I think Let's say I'm a matchmaker I get the fight done Who do you pick? Ben Walson-Denny Same same here yeah Yeah I think that I think he's I don't that's the problem with Patty I mean you know not to rehash we kind of talked about last week.

I don't know if I pick him against anybody in the top 10, maybe even like top 12, 13. Yeah. I'm not sure how far I'd have to go down to find somebody I favor him against. Yeah. I mean, like beating Chandler was impressive, but what were we really knowing about Chandler at that point? You know what I mean?

Like at that point, Chandler had been out for, you know, he lost it completely the offside of fashion of Charles Olivera. No shame there. And when that had, we're kind of like, well, you know what, Charles Oliver is just a freaking awesome dude. But then he goes out there and kind of has it happen to him again with Patty and he

actually gets finished. You're kind of like, well, is Patty that good or is Chandler kind of, you know, just on the downside of his crew, which sadly does happen. And then he goes out there and kind of, you know, I mean, he survives, but he got beat up by Justin Gagy, man. He got beat the hell up. And now you're like, okay, so he's got a lot of hype and his two prove-it fights, he has proven fights.

He won one over a guy who we're not really sure where he's at, and he's obviously not top 10 anymore in Michael Chandler. And he got Justin Gates, who's been top five for, I don't know, a decade, whatever it is. And he got beat up. So, like, if you lose to Binwis Saint-Din, or you, you know, like, that's a real proving ground fight for Patty. And I like Benoit. Benoit's just

such a fun, violent dude, and he's good on the feet, he's good on the ground, he's big. So, you know, you're not going to have a huge size of advantage for Patty. Yeah, I think, and I would favor BSD. And I don't, like, I'd have to really look at the top 10 right now, but yeah, I don't know that you're wrong.

Like, I don't, like, I don't, I don't know where Patty sits. Like, I really don't. And I think we got a lot to learn about Patty Pimblit. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, but back to St. Denis, you know, what a great win for him. And, yeah, I'm excited to see what the future holds for him.

You know, unfortunately for Dan Hooker, you know, I'm not sure where he's at these days. You know, he's maybe towards the end of his line, too. Yeah. It's still so, I think it's still exciting fights out there for him. Like, I kind of wouldn't mind even like a Patty versus Dan Hooker. You know, they hate each other apparently and talk some shit. Like, I don't think that's a terrible fight. And I think that's probably a more likely fight that they'll make, right?

Because I think it's a more winnable fight for Patty, especially where Dan's at in his career right now. But that's probably a more likely matchup that they'll make, in my opinion. Yeah. Let me ask you this, Matt. You've been around the sport and you were never in your career. You were never like a big trash talker. Like you would respond to guys.

You would, you know, obviously you're very well spoken on the microphone when you want to be. but you were never like trying to be Connor. You're never trying to like just trash talk guys. And things got pretty nasty between Dan and Patty. And I understand like Patty made that weird, really weird comment about like he couldn't stop someone from assaulting his mother. Like that's how bad his grappling is. I'm like, why did you use that analogy?

It's so dumb. And then of course, Dan Hooker's like, you go low, I go lower. And he mentioned his friend who committed suicide. He got really ugly between those two. And I interviewed Dan about it. And he's like, no apologies. You said something nasty about me. I'll say something really nasty about you and piss you off.

He's like, I fully admit, I went as low as I could just to piss him off as I really wanted to get under skin. I was like, all right. But then after Patty lost, Dan was kind of reveling in like he looked like shit. He didn't look good. He got his ass beat. And then, of course, Patty today puts out a video saying Dan Hooker looked like shit, like kind of reveling in a guy's loss. As a fighter mat, like, this isn't like the feeling sport. Like we should all have thick skin in this sport.

But like, how do you feel when one fighter kind of celebrates the. downfall of another fighter that you didn't beat. Like, Patty didn't beat Dan Hooker. Benoit San Diego beat Dan Hooker. Dan Hooker didn't beat Patty. Justin Gagey beat Patty. But yet they're kind of like, aha, you lost, you suck. And I'm just like, I don't know.

It's weird, right? Like, why are you reveling? Well, you didn't do it. If you did it, sure, reveling the fact you went out there and just kicked the guy's ass. But like, how do you feel about guys like celebrating the downfall of another when they weren't even involved? Well, I said, this is probably why they're going to make this matchup, right?

like these guys are already talking the shit you know they're both calling the ufc like give me that motherfucker right you know and and i know that they generally like to make like guys coming off a loss his fight and guys coming off wins fight they kind of prefer that way so i think it's a likely matchup but you know i think it's just very low frequency thinking when you're kind of talking about people like that and you know i don't know man like like dan hooker responding because or because, you know, Patty said, you know, like he wasn't talking about his mother. You know what I mean? So it's like you really, a lot of times like kind of trying to find excuses.

I think it might have been a little bit of like playing off each other's popularity, you know. And, you know, as long as they can get them rowed up a little bit, you know, then I'll be in the news more. And, you know, I don't know, this is not me for sure. You know, I don't mind seeing other guys do it. You know, they can because it is what always happens. The guys after the fight, they're cool. right and they shake hands you know nine out of ten times right they just shake hands and everything's cool

so you know they're they're just trying to uh promote the fight you know i think they probably do both want to fight each other um but i think most of that trash talk like that is kind of just low frequency low IQ type stuff whereas like the connor type stuff was like intelligent you know what i mean you know he kind of towards the end there he started you know it's like he ran out of ideas right so he got dug a little lower and deeper in that way but i think overall you know it was brilliant when he was doing i mean he became the biggest name in the sport right so you can't really hate on that but you know when you're just doing it for clicks and stuff you know more for popularity i get it not going to hate on it but you know it's nothing that I necessarily respect yeah it's such a and I do and actually like I

trained with Dan Hooker before and and hung out with him a little bit like I should respect the guy I think he's awesome and uh I remember the one time I sparred with him I was like wow like he's actually really fucking good you know I think he's underachieved in his career as a matter of fact like I think he was good enough to be champion but um yeah so I just got to put that out there too you know there there is still a lot of respect for him I just I don't really like that style that they're and me to you. Yeah, it's just weird. Like, I get it. You hate each other. And, you know, you're, but I'm just like,

if you want to celebrate the guy's downfall, be the one to put him on that downfall. Be the guy who got there and beat him. Like, Patty beat him. He's like, ha, ha, you suck. I told you you you sucked and I beat your ass. All right, well, hey, I can't really say much about it. You did go out there and beat my ass. Or, you know, vice versa, Dan Hooker, because I'd be like, I don't understand, like, what are you? Like, are you going to go

high five Justin Gagey because he beat Patty Bimble? You're going to go high five in Las St. Denise? because he was like, good, good job taking care of my problem. Like, what? Like, it's just a weird thing, like, celebrating another guy's downfall when you had nothing to do with it. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah.

Like, it's got a little frequency thinking, you know, it's, uh, yeah, like when someone loses, it sucks. Like, you say and whatever you say about it doesn't make it suck worse or better. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't, you're not changing anything. That's why I think it's mainly, like, just to get in the news and, you know, how people like us talk about it.

and, you know, get up more clicks on social media or whatever versus, like, actually, I mean, and like, I don't think anyone could say something to me. Maybe I'm a unique person, but I don't think anyone could say something to me where I would even care that much. You know what I mean? Like, you could do something to me, but, like, you could say all kinds of shit. I'm like, okay, like, whatever. Like, it's just, you're just saying stuff.

Like, it doesn't really bother me. So I find a, I find a different. odd, I don't know. I don't get that mentality where like people say things and people get worked up about it. And maybe that's just because, you know, I'm just a unique person in myself. But when people say things, like, I don't know. I don't get why people get so worked up about words. I got last week when we did the, we did the podcast and you were talking about like, you know,

it was a slug fest, but you were not blown away by Gagian Pimbled because it was just kind of sloppy, undisciplined fight. And obviously, you know, video comes. out you talking about and I had someone reply to the reply to the tweet with a gif of your fight with cowboy and like this guy's got this guy's got an opinion and I and I responded back because I've never understood why like a professional fighter with 15 years experiencing the UFC most knockouts of welterweight history lost a fight because guess what people lose fights it's going to happen why does that invalidate his opinion when he's got more like

my opinion you can come you can come at me I never fought now I've had 20 plus years of journalism and I've covered the sport. I think my opinion is somewhat valid, but if you want to come in and say, hey man, you never did it. I can't fall. I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I didn't do it. I never went in there and did it. I can't, I can't analyze, but I never did it. You're right. I never did it. But I'm like, why does Matt losing

to Cowboy Soroni invalidate his opinion about the way a fight broke down? It's the dumbest, it's like literally you don't low IQ, it's like the lowest hanging fruit that makes no sense. You know, and if I was against, you know, some region, guy or some shit

you know I guess it'd kind of make a little bit of sense right like oh you lost to the fucking Joe Schmo down at the local fight yeah you fucking suck like I don't know like I lost the cowboy serroney bro like he's pretty good you know like he won a few fights

you know I wasn't the only person he knocked out he's pretty decent at doing that himself you know yeah it's just it's such a weird like how I got you like how did you get what and then to add to that I also, you know, it's not like, and that's why it just doesn't even bother me when they say because, you know, I'm like, like, did you watch the fight?

Because, you know, it wasn't like, you know, I don't know, like an Aldo Conner, you know, where it just walked out and knocked me out like it wasn't shit. Like, we kind of had a pretty good fight, you know, and I'm, I zigged when I should have zagged. Like, it's kind of cool, bro. Like, it doesn't matter, you know. Like, if you fight long enough, like, you're going to get fucked up, bro. I mean, last night they had, they had Robert Whitaker, Chris Wyman,

Dean Thomas on the broadcast. Now, Wyman and Whitaker, former champions, Dean Thomas never was. Dean Thomas is an incredible analyst, great coach. He didn't really get that far in his MMAICR. He fought a lot of good guys, but he was never at that level. He never got close to a title. He was never like a top five guy, top six guy.

You know, he was, but he knows the sport. He's been around. He's coached, like for years at American Top Team, coached a lot of good fighters. His opinion matters. His opinion matters. I'm not saying just because he didn't get to become a champion like Chris Wyman, his opinion doesn't matter? Like, no, he's a great analyst. Like he knows the sport, he's been around the sport his entire life.

You were one fight away from fighting for a title when you fought Robbie Lawler. But that doesn't matter. You spent 15 years in the UFC. You are now a coach of an entire team. Your opinion matters. You don't have to agree with the opinion. But you're obviously, it would be different if I, like, we were doing this podcast. I had a guy on who fought one time in the UFC and got dropped afterwards because he sucked.

Right. I'm like, well, maybe we don't value his opinion quite as much. But, like, I just, I've never understood that as like a gotcha moment. like if they showed like Dean Thomas getting spinning back fist knocked out by Matt Sarah it's like oh I got you Dean you got knocked out by Matt Sarah the fuck does that matter yeah and they probably don't agree it's like what a lot of coaches say but I mean how many coaches have even fought you know like so many these coaches have like never even really fought before you know maybe some local shows or something and it's like it's like all right

well you know they're out there coaching world champions like if they fought yeah maybe they would have got knocked out. Does that make them not know the sport or something? Yeah. And I, I do, I also do have the belief that like, you know, fighting at a higher level does give you insights that you cannot get as a coach just by analyzing and by, you know, being around the sport and talking to guys and stuff. Like, like, because there's different emotions that you understand, you know, when you're in a corner, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, when you're, you're pushing yourself to the brink you know when you're stepping in there against a guy who looks like a fucking monster you're a killer you know there's there's there's there's feelings that

average people can't understand only the the high level fighters do understand yeah 100% 100% but i always found that like the weird is like gotcha like oh you lost this guy really yeah yeah yeah i don't even feel that though you know like i just scroll right past those it's so dumb um Real quick before we get out of here, Matt, we were talking about UFC 325. Next week, and we got the new, the first card of the meta apex. They're doing the meta apex. Now, they're selling tickets now, so we're going to have a crowd. And Mario Batista is fighting Venetius Oliva.

A couple good fights on that card. But real quick before we get out there, I wanted to mention over the weekend, we got this kind of sad news. Shab Kat Rek-Manov, another knee surgery, out for another 9 to 10 months, which probably means out of all 2026 or, you know. The first thought I had last night and newer fans are going to be like, who? First thought I had was T.J. Grant. Remember T.J. Grant? He was killing people a lightweight. He got a title shot. I think he was going to fight Benson Henderson. He got a concussion in training. Never fought again. Now, I know this is not the same thing. It's a knee surgery. But now he's had multiple knee surgeries. We talk about guys like Kane Velasquez. His entire career was just riddled with injury. We don't know what Kane could have been.

Dominic Cruz, same kind of thing. We don't know how far. he could have gone as champion because he just got so injured by the time he came back yes he still won he did win he did totally win the title again although i still think he lost to t j dillishaw neither here nor there but uh but his career was just absolutely riddle with injuries and listen shabkat's i think 31 he's not you know he's not old by any much stretch imagination but two years out with multiple knee surgery is never good i don't care how you paint that um how do you feel about like it's almost like man like he beats eing gary great fight close fight but he beat ean gary he's getting Bilal Muhammad in May

and then he gets injured and now here we are we're going to be basically two years removed from that and he's not even in the conversation unfortunately now. Yeah it sucks man because what you know knee shoulders hips even ankles and stuff you know once you get surgery it's never the same

again you know so who knows how he's going to be coming back right? It's just not the same man and being out for so long yeah like what a tough fucking gift. man you know yeah you know he's got to cut all the weight back down you know you know because

it's not like he's going to be dieting for two years you know what I mean so yeah that's a tough gig so uh kind of sucks but you know that's kind of the nature of the sport too right that's a that's the game we're playing man you're always uh one injury away from a long time out yeah you're kind of like the problem with the problem with shaft cat is like he had if he had been out for a year and come back and just not gotten a title shot which I was fine with that like I said Other things have happened. Guys have gotten into position. He's been out of action.

I get it. And you probably don't want to depend on him to go into a title shot when what just happened happened. He got injured again. He's out for another 10 months. So I understood him not being like, oh, yeah, Shabkat, you're going to slip right back into a title fight. I get that. Like having a fight, you know, I don't know, Michael Morales or whoever else out there to get the title shot, it's fine. But now you're talking about two years away from the sport and the division is going to move on without him.

You got Michael Morales. You got Ian Garry. You got Kamar Usman who's back. You got a new champion in Islam Makachev. and you start wondering, like, is he going to be... Clearly, we hope he comes back and bounces back and gets back in there early next year and he looks just as good as he ever did.

But the reality is, you just don't know. And you just start wondering, like, is he going to be one of those great what-ifs? Like, what if? Because he was on such a good run and destined to fight for the title and now two years late. He's going to be two years removed from his last fight,

and he's not going to be in the title picture. I don't care how you painted. There's going to be guys who are going to be in better position to fight for the title on him. man, it's heartbreaking. You feel for a guy like that. Absolutely, man.

I can't imagine. So, you know, I was fortunate to not have to deal with tons of injuries. You know, I had, I think, eight or nine surgeries throughout my career. But, you know, I was never out for too long. So, you know, I can't really relate to that. I can't imagine what it feels like. And, you know, like, I don't know, what are you doing your downtime? You know, like, how do you make money?

How do you, you know, provide? And I don't know if he's got kids or anything, you know, but how do you do those? things and you know you start you start kind of questioning who you are a little bit you know like I had an ACL tear and was out for about a year from that and it's like you know you start wondering like who am I am I still a fighter and you know you start having all these mental tricks playing in your head two years is a long time man so you know I hope it doesn't become a what if I hope he comes back strong but you know what I expected you to say was uh he said you know the on a side note from the

weekend was about a secure and tiafima lopez right like i was i mean chikor put on a fucking clinic man like first time we've seen him really like come forward and and punch somebody up at least since i've been watching them which has been a while but um man we're like what a clinic we got to give props to him that that was like that was like the chikour stevenson we've all wanted to see because the biggest knock on him was like he's good but he's really boring And it's good. And it's almost like T. Fima Lopez brought something out of him. He's just like, I'm going to go beat the shit out of this guy.

And he did, man. It was like a completely lopside. I think that score. I think there was like one scorecard to give one round to Tfima Lopez. And like, in boxing, you know, as well as I do with boxing, that's pretty rare when they all agreed on like that to that point. So like that's a, you know, that's a one side of ass kicking when all the judges are like, yeah, you like you won every round.

Like that doesn't happen. So like, he coasted a couple middle rounds too. So it was like, yeah. And it's like like, like not. not like Tiofimo is a scrub either. You know what I mean? Like he's a former world champ. Like, you know, he's a hell of a good fighter.

And boy, Shakur just looked good, man. And I've been singing his praise for a while. I've been excited to finally watch him fight somebody that, you know, could potentially give him a challenge. And, yeah, so it was exciting. And, you know, I'm excited to see the future for him and see how that goes. I know Connor Ben came in the ring and was talking some shit. I don't think that fight does a ton for him.

but it'd be a good fight though because carter will come right the fuck after him right that's his style he's going to come hard and i think it could be it'd definitely be an interesting fight but you know i don't see uh that that being a uh gigantic fight i'm i'm ready to see him fight some of the top guys it's it's kind of funny too because like a couple years ago we were all kind of looking at man is it going to be is it going to be chakor is it going to be ryan garcia is it going to be ryanne you know they're all right there and they just had to fought each other and then you know ryan goes out and i know he does a whole austrian shit whatever, but he beats Haney, which was shocking because Haney looked kind of untouchable

up to that point. He got pieced up by Darian Garcia. And now Ryan Garcia's kind of moved away. He lost another fight, which was weird. And now Shakur's like the man, because he was always kind of like the bridesmaid, never the bride. Like he was always like the number three guy. He couldn't get those number one guys.

He just went out there and absolutely dissected Tiafima Lopez. And now you're kind of like, well, like you said Conor Ben, like, yeah, it could be a fun fight. I don't know if it's really like a meaningful fight in that way. Exactly. But it's a fun fight. But yeah, I wonder what they're going to do now because a lot of the big fights, like just two years ago

are not really there anymore. Yeah, and that's the, you know, I called it a long time ago. We've been watching Schor for a long time. And, you know, we had like, like, Tank and, like, Ryan Garcia, Devin Haney and like, you know, who's going to emerge from all these? Even Lomacheco was, you know, talking about moving up to those weights. And I said for a long time, I was like,

do you score fucks them all up. And now he finally, like, proved it. You know, like, we knew he was. skilled enough to hang with any of these guys, but it's like, you know, can he actually hurt somebody? And he hurt Tiafimo a lot of times, or Tiofima, whatever you say. And, you know, we just never seen him really do that. I mean, he still doesn't hit that hard, right? Like, you know, even when he was sitting down on some punches, he still got pillow fist, you know, and that's always going to be his weakness. But, man, he is untouchable, bro. He looked hell of good. Some of the best

boxing I've seen in a long time. And you mentioned Tank Davis. I kind of forgot about him because He's got a lot going on right now. They ain't got nothing to boxing. Yeah, he ain't fighting nobody soon, yeah. Yeah, but, like, that's another one. Like, that's another one we could have been into, like, Tank Davis, because, you know, huge knockout power kind of, like, the opposite of Shakur Stevenson. He would lose rounds, but then he would just find a way to knock your ass out.

And he was obviously much, like, better technically than, like, let's say, Deonté Wilder, who was always banking on that one-shot knockout. But now, like, that's not even in the conversation like that. Like, he blew, and not even getting, like, the arrest stuff, which is bad enough as it is, and we shouldn't gloss over it, but he lost a Laurent Road. She did not win that. It was a draw. He should have lost that fight, man.

He did not win that fight. And then he does the Jake Paul thing versus rematching with Lamont Roach. I was like, come on. So, like, even that, like the kind of lustre around Tank Davis, beyond his personal life, it's kind of off now, too, because you're like, well, he probably should have lost to Lamont Roach. And then he didn't rematch him. Why didn't you rematch him? Why are you fighting Jake Paul?

So, yeah, it's kind of a weird one. Like, all those, like, four or five guys, like, two years ago, we're all vying for that top spot. It's pretty much just Shakur now. Yeah, yeah. So we'll see what happens. You know, boxing is crazy. There's always comes big fights when you don't expect them. So I'm excited to see the future for a score and hoping to get some big fights. But just that throw a little bit of boxing in there because, you know, that was a good fight last weekend.

You know, boxing is getting crazy. You know, what's been crazy for a long time is getting crazier. So I don't know how many of these big, exciting, you know, top-level fights we're going to be seeing in the future. You know, we'll see how everything plays. plays out, but, um, yeah, I was, I was happy to see that, man. It's cool to see Schuhrer out there smoking guys. It's funny to see all of the boxing promoters just getting absolutely pissed off about Dana White and Zufa boxing and like unloading on them.

And the funny thing is about is like, I'm not like, I'm not going to get into like the changing the Ali Act and all the problems that are there. I'm just about them getting involved in the sport. I'm like, have you seen the cards that Zufit Boxing is putting on right now? They're not exactly putting on like, I mean, I, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, signed that that one cruiserweight i can't pronounce his name i butcher it you know i'm talking about yeah yeah i just call him jai jai jai oba peteer or whatever he name is like they signed him and that's like but cruiserweight is a terrible division it's just not a good division it's just not a good

but good signing they got a champion legit guy number one in the world like okay that's good but like calum walsh is a very good prospect i always like calum walsh but he's not a number one guy he's still very much a prospect kind of learning who he's going to be and it's like how like why are you so nervous. Like, he's like, if he, if he stole, if he stole, if he stole, I don't know, like Usik or way or whatever, then, okay, let's go, then you got to start hitting the panic button a little bit more. But I'm like, why are you, like, they're having fights with 700 people in the crowd at the apex. Like, that's, that's not a threat to you. No one is going to look at that Callum Walsh fight and say, man, that was the same level of Shakur Stevens and T. Fimo

Lopez. But sure. I don't think it's like the media threat that they're worried about. They know the, the turkey money behind them, right? And they're not. like, I mean, they see a threat coming in the future, right? And they, the good part about it, I mean, you know, obviously have my, my own issues with what Zufa's doing and particularly legislatively. But, you know, the good thing about is it should, in theory, make those guys step their damn game up, right? Everybody should be working harder now, right?

And, you know, Oscar and Eddie Hearn and Bob Aram, all these guys, they need to step their game. And it's been needed to give them a. A little kick in the ass to step the game up. Let's see if they actually do. I don't know if they will. I don't know what their options are, but it's been needed to be done for a long time.

Well, it's weird because until Turkey got in and started paying it, we didn't, like, that was a big reason why we got a lot of bigger fights we got in the last couple years because Saudi Arabia is like, we'll pay for it. And so they're offering money that's so astronomical guys are not going to turn it down and they're going to fight. We've actually seen some pretty big fights like Usik and Fury. But like even that, like, you're right. I think that

is what Zufa is doing, like it or not. I'm not going to get into all the act and the change is there because we know pretty much where we both sit on that whole conversation, especially compared to UFC and mixed martial artists, but the fact that the threat is there and they're like, oh, because like

Connor Ben and and, of course, Deemason may not be the greatest fight in the world, but at least there's a chance now we get to see it. There's a world where I think, I think, Eddie Hearn is Connor Ben's promoter, I think, I'm pretty sure, right? Like there's a word where Eddie Hurd says like, yeah, we're going to go find another British guy. We're going to go fight this guy because he wants to protect this guy.

He wants to keep his guy running. Now you can't do that as much because, A, we've actually seen some of these fights take place and someone's paying for it. And B, you do have someone's coming up. So, like, hey, I'll put on those fights. So it's like, because if there's one thing Dana has said about boxing is true, is it like they're always doing going out of business sale. It's true. Like, no one's building anything.

Like, you know what I mean? It kind of feels like every time there's a big fight. Like, okay, we get a big fight. and it just kind of goes away again. And we're excited about Tafuma and Shakur. And then we're just all kinds of go away again. We're waiting for, I don't know, what is the next big boxing match that's going to come up? You know what I mean?

So it's like you've got to build some foundation in there. You got to start building some foundation in there, get a TV deal, things like that. Maybe it's going to be a kick in the ass. We're going to see these guys like, hey, we're going to make the fights you want to see that we thought we could never put together. I'm hoping that's what happens. Yeah, it's just hard to imagine that because the amount of money, these types of guys are going to be demanding. I mean, I'm sure I haven't seen the numbers or anything, but I'm sure that Shakur got paid good last weekend more than Zufa would ever pay him, right? So I don't know how.

And if Zufa does pay him that kind of money, it's like, I mean, is any UFC fighter going to be like, yo, what the fuck? You know, so yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how all this plays out in the next few years. But like you said, you know, Zufa has so much money behind him with Turkey that, I mean, they can kind of do whatever they. want you know like they can yeah with that kind of money i mean they their options are limitless but you know it's a matter of like you know you're stepping into a hundred plus year old sport you know that's got a lot of tradition a lot of you know a lot of guys that have been in there for a long time and and and are well respected in the industry so you know there's so many different ways this could play out i it's hard to predict any anything in this

Yeah, I mean, listen, it's funny, even like the guys who are, like, if you listen to Ryan Garcia-Darcy and Oscar de La Hoya talk, you would never imagine one's a promoter and ones the fight. They only seem to like each other, and yet he's a promoter, so it's a weird thing with this sport. But I do hope we get to see some of these fights. Like, I know, like, we're not going to get to see Fury and Joshua. We know why, of course, Joshua went through a huge personal tragedy recently. I totally understand that. Fury's coming back fighting somebody else. Okay, great.

But I hope, you know, if he wins and looks good doing it, then they, got to do that Joshua fight. Come on. There's nothing. Like, once Joshua's ready to go again, he feels mentally ready to go again after the tragedy he suffered through. Like, come on. Like that, we need to see that fight finally. Does it matter as much as it would have like four years ago?

No, but it still matters. It's still a fight we always wanted to see. Kind of like with Packe-Hum-Aweather. We've got it about four years too late, but we still got it. Yeah, it'd be cool to see. I don't know where Fury's at, you know, what he's feeling right now, you know? And he's that type of guy, too,

where I think he's kind of a wild car where any day he could just walk away and be like, I'm just not here from him again, right? He's just that guy. And Joshua, I mean, you know, boy, this is hard to say, man, because I don't know how much Joshua

even wants that fight. You know, he never like, he never put everything out there and try to get that fight. You know, like he never like really shot for that fight. It was like, yeah, if it happens, it happens kind of thing. And maybe that's just his person. I don't know, but, you know, I felt like that fight could have been pushed for a lot more back in the day.

Yeah, I would be kind of curious what's going to happen to heavyweight because I know I'm sure you saw Deontu Wilders fighting Derek Chazora. Interesting. But yeah, it's like Ussick is so on top of the world. It's like no one can even come close to him. Like Dubois, we thought, man, he looked good. He knocked out Joshua. He had kind of a controversial, a little bit controversy in his first fight with Ucic. Nope, not the second time around.

Usik just picked him apart and knocked him out. So it's like, who the hell is Ucic going to fight? point. And obviously he's an older guy too. He's probably towards the tail on his career. Final two or three fights his career, it's almost like, who's he going to fight? So, yeah, it's interesting times. But there are still fun matchups to be made. Like I said, there's still fun fights for me. Just like we saw

this last week, I have Tfima Lopez and Chagor Stevenson. Yeah, always, man. There's always good matchups. And does that boxing ain't going to where they keep saying that it is, but I don't think he's going to where. Hopefully we can just get some good kickboxing and more ties sometime. That's the only thing

I hope for. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. know everyone's talking about Rico Verhoeven coming to the UFC. I'm like, I like that idea, but Rico's 36. He's not exactly a young guy coming in. And, you know, every time you get... And I'd rather see him kickbox anyway. Like, he's a fucking great kickboxer to watch. I was excited to see Marcus Buccechuk come in and his run in the UFC has not been great.

So you just never know, man. Like, it's a whole different world when you step into MMA and versus, you know, jihitsu or kickboxing or boxing or anything. So we'll see. I don't know. I don't know that we really want to pin our heavyweight dreams on a 36-year-old kickboxer to save the sport. No, especially with Gable Stevenson coming in.

Yeah. I said it last night watching that it was the Talishin Tashara, whoever he fought, I care of what he fought. Oh, Taito Yvasa. I was watching that and I was like, man, I think Gable Stevens would be ranked in top five right now without a UFC fight. Like that's how bad heavyweight has been lately. I'm like, man, like your prediction that Gable can come in and win the heavyweight championship,

like, okay, maybe him and Aspinel, him and Gaum, would be interesting, but outside of that, I don't know, there's a whole lot interesting that cable couldn't run through. Like, Aspenol is the only interesting matchup, honestly. The rest of them, I think he destroys. I mean, what's gone going to do? He can't stop his take down.

You know what I mean? Like, I love Siril God. I think he's an amazing fighter, but you really think he's going to stop Gable Stevenson from taking him down and pounding him? I don't think so. You know, Aspenov is the only one that that they're really,

really like a tough matchup, I think. I mean, who knows, right? Like, you know, this story's been played out before. These guys that you think would, you know, without Bo Nicol would come in and kind of wrecked shop, right? That's kind of one of the, you know, when I said that a couple weeks ago and they posted, you know, a lot of the comments,

what about fucking Bo Nickel? It's like, bro, Bo Nichol is hella good. He's not Gable Stevenson. And he's not in a heavyweight division. Yeah. of, you know, a bunch of bikers. Middle weight. Middleweight is really good.

Heavyweight, not so much. Yeah, yeah. So it's like, you can't compare it like that. And you can't compare the athleticism of a Gable Stevenson. Bo Nichols is amazing. Like, I'm not going to take anything away from. He was not an Olympic medalist

while he was in college. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, that's like, Gable is, a fucking specimen of a human being. I mean, maybe not looks wise, right?

Like, that's usually what people think of when you say specimen. But he is, he's an absolute freak of nature. I mean, he won the Olympics, and it didn't even look that hard for him.

And it was a tough Olympic run. Like, he had, you know, tough, tough guys in there. It wasn't, you know,

like one of the knocks, you know, in the wrestling world on Henry Sehuda, it was like he got a, the easiest draw in the Olympics ever, you know, when he won his gold medal, or a very easy draw, which happens, you know, you get easy.

It's not his fault, you know, nothing to say there. But, and I don't, I'm not, I can't verify that. I'm not that deep in the wrestling. But that's one of the knocks that I've heard. But like, Gabe of Stevenson didn't. Like, he went in and he beat like former Olympic champions and gold medalists in the world. And like, that dude's a fucking freak, man.

Like, he was still in college. He was like 21, dude. It's insane. It's still insane that he did that at that age. So, yeah. ridiculous. Yeah, he's, he's, he's, he's one of one. Gable is one of one also because of the division he competes and he's one of one. Like, there's no another, yeah, Bo Nicol, there's other, there's other great, you know,

fighters who have been around that level three-time NCAA champion. That's not a gold medalist. That's not a 21-year-old freak in nature. That's not competing in the heavyweight division. It's just different. So, yeah, I agree. Yeah. Matt, where can people, we're going to get out of here?

Where can people check you out if people want to support you and see what you got going on outside of this podcast? At I'm immortal Instagram, Twitter. the immortal my brand on Facebook. And you got your own podcast now too. Oh yeah, I got my own podcast, the immortal cast. Check it out on, I guess, on YouTube and probably all the Spotify, iTunes. I don't know all that stuff.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I was always going to say. I should know how to plug your own show there. Like I'm about to do. We kind of just started it too. You know what I'm letting it build up. Like, you know, I'm learning how to be a podcast guy. We had Mark Coleman on today, you know, as a first time we had a guest.

It's very interesting. I'm sure you know this. Like you've been hosting for a long time. I'm used to being the guy that they're asking the questions to. Yeah. Now the pressure is on me. And I got to ask him questions. And sometimes like, you know, that was, again, my first time I ever had a guest

that I'm, you know, asked questions to. And sometimes he tells a story. And, you know, in the back of my head, I'm like, I don't have another question. I'm like, hey, you just answered everything. Like, it's cool, bro. Like, let's go, let's go have a drink or something. Let's go work out. Like, the story is over.

Like, oh, yeah, wait, we're doing a podcast. Like, we've got to keep going. Yeah, it's a different world. Different world when you start wearing that hat. So, yeah, support that podcast as well. And as always support our podcast. We appreciate it. Everyone that tunes in each and every week.

Check us out on Spotify, Apple Podcast. And, of course, over on the best website in the world, MEPFiting.com. And next week, we'll be back with more show. Obviously, we got the Mario Batista, Venetius Leverified coming up this weekend, so we'll have plenty more to talk about, I'm sure. UFC White House cards getting made,

so we'll get some news about that by next week. But as always, I want to say big thank you to everyone to tune's in. For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin. We'll see you guys next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then.