MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Where Does Israel Adesanya Rank Now Among The Greatest of All Time After His Win at UFC 287?

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

Following an eventful UFC 287 this past weekend, The Fighter vs. The Writer with Matt Brown and Damon Martin returns to discuss everything that unfolded. In the main event, Israel Adesanya exacted his revenge with a brutal second-round knockout over Alex Pereira to regain the middleweight title and become a two-time UFC champion. By vanquishing arguably his greatest foe, Adesanya cemented himself among the best 185-pound fighters but where does he now rank with the greatest fighters in the history of the sport? Does Adesanya already deserve to be mentioned alongside names like Georges St-Pierre, Anderson Silva and Demetrious Johnson? We’ll also discuss Gilbert Burns’ win and Jorge Masvidal announcing his retirement afterwards. Masvidal called it a career after 20 years in the sport and we’ll talk about the legacy he leaves behind now that he’s hung up his gloves for good. We’ll also give our picks for the upcoming UFC Kansas City main event between Max Holloway and Arnold Allen. All this and more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer!   Subscribe: Apple Podcasts Subscribe: Spotify Read More: MMA Fighting Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Marshall's buyers travel far and wide, hustling for great deals on amazing gifts. So you don't have to. They've bagged this season's Italian leather handbags. Designer. Hand-picked the finest sweaters from the rest. Ooh, cashmere. Landed makeup pallets from the brands you love. Brushes too.

And hustled all those wishless topping toys. So plush. Our buyers have got you covered. Marshalls. We get the deals. You gift the good stuff. Is it the macha or am I this energized from scoring three Sephora holiday gift sets? Definitely the sets.

Full size and minis bundled together? What a steal. And that packaging is so cute. It practically wraps itself. And I know I should be giving them away, but I'm keeping the summer Fridays and rare beauty by Selena Gomez. I don't blame you. The best holiday beauty sets are only at Sephora.

Gift sets from summer Fridays, rare beauty, way and more are going fast. Get full-sized favorites and must-have minis bundled for more value. Shop before they're gone. In-store online at Sephora.com. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Back to the Fighter versus the Writer. I'm your host as always, Damon Martin. He is Matt Brown and Matt.

For once, we're coming off a UFC pay-per-view where you and I pick the correct winners. Aren't we proud of ourselves? The first time for everything, man. But to be fair, one of us was questioning their pick pretty strongly by Saturday. I was, man. I was feeling there was something about some of the stuff I saw in fight

we had me worried, man. I picked, and I stuck with Israel out of Sanya, but man, some of the, I don't know, the press coverage, the way in, it just had me, like, questioning. And I was like, text you, I was like, I don't know about this pick, man. He's like too late to change it now. So I stuck with it, but I'm glad I did because, man, I tell you what, hell of a fight and a great comeback for Israel out of Sanya to pull that off. But, man, there's just something about their demeanor fight week that had me worried. I was like, I don't know, man. Maybe it's going the other way.

and I hadn't even questioned my pick one bit until you texted me and then all of a sudden I was like he is looking kind of skinny isn't he he? He's like he does look a little off like. Yeah, but he came through. I thought everything looked great. And then you put the worm of doubt into my mind turning. I did.

I dropped a seed of doubt and it started flourishing. Yeah, but that we stuck with our picks and we ended up getting both of them right. Israel, Adasanya, got the knockout and Gilbert Burns. got a pretty dominant win over Jorge Mazel also. We'll get into all of that. Before we talk to fight stuff from UFC 287, let's get the camp update on the Immortal. How is everything in these last, basically right now,

we're about a month out from the fight? It's beautiful, man. Jesus, I feel great, man. I'll tell you what, I got to give a shout out to my boys at R3 stem cells down in Nashville. They've given me some stem cells about, I think I've been there three times now. I'll tell you what, man, my body just feels good, man.

I feel healthy. Like the injuries that I usually have been dealing with the past few camps are just getting mitigated. I'm feeling good and feeling fast, feeling sharp. I also got to give a shout out to another guy of mine who I haven't given a shout out to lately. His name is Josh. And he runs a fight mindset. He does his hypnosis training on me, right? and I'll tell you what,

I'd like to give a shout out to him, one, for the work that he does, for the hypnosis, and he works with a few other fighters, he does amazing work, and it's really cool stuff what he does. But on a more serious note, not that's not serious, on a different note,

you know, he's also been going through one of the hardest things I think a person could ever go through. He's been, he needs a new kidney. So, doing, I guess, maybe a favor for him. You know, if anyone out there would be willing to donate a kidney, which I know is a lot to ask, but this guy needs one, man. You know, his life is on the line right now.

He's been on dialysis for over a year now. And, you know, the best I could do is give him a shout out on a public forum and try to help him out the best I can. So, but with those things, with that being said, the KIP is just going great. I'm feeling phenomenal, and I expect a great performance here. And about a month, I think we're out now, right? Five months.

Yeah, almost exactly. We've got a little over a month out now. And where can people find Josh? We want to look him up. Does he have an Instagram? Does he have a page or anything? Yeah, his Instagram is Fight Mindset. Find Mindset.

Okay, there you go. So people want to reach out or look out for his page. You can look on there. I'm sure there'll be information you can find there. Yeah, that's serious, man. if someone can help, you know, somebody can help out, somebody knows somebody. I mean, that's how you get the word out right there. Get people to know and get tested and, you know, you never know. So, absolutely with that. And yeah, and also we heard with your car, you got a new main event,

which was kind of bizarre out of nowhere, Jalton Almeida and Jarsina Rosenstrike. And now you got Anthony Smith and Johnny Walker's the co-man. I talked to Anthony last week. And he was, he had no idea why. He just got called and said, hey, you're the co-main event now three rounds instead of five He has no idea why. I don't get it either. And it's nothing against Jarzini or Rosenstrike and Jolten Almeida. But to me, Anthony Smith and Johnny Walker are bigger names. And typically you want bigger names at the top of the car.

I don't know. That was a weird. Like, again, none of this affects you. But I was just like, that's a weird change. Another weird thing I've seen also was, I think that, according to the UFC website, the fight card starts at 3 p.m. The undercard prelims start 1130 a.m. on the East Coast.

That's a very strange thing. Maybe there's a typo or something, but don't leave you wrong, I was pretty excited when I seen that because I don't like fighting at 11 o'clock at night or 12 o'clock at night. I know why they do it and for the fans and everything, but I would be really excited to get to go fight at 5 o'clock in the afternoon.

And you are correct. I'm looking at the time. Unless it's a misprint, which generally they don't do that. It's a daytime car. Saturday main cards at 3 p.m. So yeah, there you go. So that's an interesting one. I did not know that.

That's a new experience. So look at you telling me something. So yeah, 3 p.m. Eastern. I don't know. I would assume we'd have to look at the schedule, but I would imagine since it's on ESPN, there's some sort of game or, you know, something going on that night where they need,

you know, there's going to be another TV show or a sports game or something. They're going to broadcast that night. So that's probably where they're going early. But yes, it's 3 p.m. start time for the main card. which would mean, as you said, like 11 or noon for the prelims. Yeah, which is great, man. I think fighting it, you know, four or five o'clock in the afternoon is actually awesome for me.

That's, you know, the normal time that I train. So it's good. You know, I'm on the East Coast time. I can train my regular time. So I'm pretty excited for that. I did it. I think the only time I've ever fought an afternoon was in Vegas on the apex card once. And it was awesome, man.

got out of there is when I fought Diego Lima. I remember now, you know, and got out of there. You know, I think it was like 4 o'clock in the afternoon. It's like still got time to go get dinner and, you know, hang out with your boys and, you know, call home and do all that good stuff, man, where normally I'm out at, you know, one in the morning or midnight or something like a two in the morning if you're at the press conference or whatever. And, you know, they're in like in Vegas, I guess there's some things you can do.

right there's still restaurants open and stuff people are still out but in 90% of town it's like you're done right yeah when i find in columbus last year right i got i missed my own after party because i got out too late yeah that's it always cracks me up when they do after parties on the east coast the events over like 1 30 or whatever and it's like there's nothing going to be open in like an hour like nothing's going to be open past like 3 a.m. on the east coast so yeah you're pretty much screwed i know you lived in Vegas for a little while so i guess maybe that yeah but this and this is in charlotte too so i mean i guess you know you'll be out worst in any but like six or seven p.m so you're at the worst so uh yeah you have your whole evening

i assume you're probably not going to hang out in charlotte for days after either no that's not really my style i like get up back home see my kids hang out and uh you know get get back to life man you know because like when you know basically from now until then um i'm not thinking about May 14th, right? Everything is May 13th, and I'm going there and put on the best that I can and go in there and beat this guy's ass. So not even thinking about May 14. So it always feels great to just get out there and get back to normal life.

And it takes me at least three or four days, at least just maybe even longer than that, just to feel like you're back in reality again, you know, like back to normal life. those first few days, you still feel like you're kind of separated from the world. And there's also like every text you get is about the fight. Every, you know, everybody's calling you about the fight. Everybody comes to see you. That's what they're talking about. And that's what's going on.

So it takes a little bit of time for you just kind of get back to reality, you know, and you got to call your tax guy and be like, hey, you know, how much to owe? And, you know, should I put someone in my fucking IRA or, you know, whatever it is. And so yeah, those first few days, man, I like to just be home and, you know, just kind of settle back down and eat some good food, man, and relax and be with my girl. And do a podcast on that Monday. I'm just throwing that out there as an idea, you know. You know it, bro. You know we will.

Yeah. No, it's going to be good. It'll be good. Yeah, it's crazy. I like that, though. I dig that. I love the afternoon cars. When they went to England a couple weeks ago and they were there, I was like, oh, this is awesome.

like get done early and yeah so that's cool so hopefully that works out and yeah it should be fun like i said coming up a little over a month out yeah well the only downside i guess is like for the west coast i mean the prelims like no one's going to get up at 830 to watch the prelifts on ufc charlotte yeah i guess that's true that is true yeah it is weird though because it's like why but there's got something going on that night there's you know baseball game or basketball game or football or something's going on that night where they can't they got broadcast deal where they're doing in the early show for the O.C. I was trying to think.

I thought the same thing myself, but like what everything, the only sports that are in season are in season, like baseball is, well, you know, I bet it's going to be, I bet it's basketball playoffs to be my guess. Because basketball playoffs start soon.

I think they start like this week or next. And they'll still be going on in May. So it's probably one of the big basketball games, I'd imagine. Like probably one of like playoff games. Like NBA, not college. Yeah, yeah, college is over. but I'd imagine given the timing, now that I'm thinking about,

it's probably an NBA playoff game, to be honest. And they're going to use the UFC. It'll be UFC leading into the NBA playoff game, I'd be my guess. Okay, or it could be even the final stuff, because that's still five weeks. Yeah, it's still five weeks. So, yeah, I think they're, I don't really watch NBA,

but I think it starts this week or next. So that would time out right, because there's like four rounds. There's a lot, you know, a lot of games. So I'd assume that would probably be about right. So yeah, there you go. So probably basketball. and you get an afternoon card out of it, which is good,

especially when you're on the East Coast, because you know, you know as well as I do. When you found on the East Coast, man, you're literally, because at least when you fight in Vegas, you're done at like 10 or 11. Out here, you're not done to like one or two in the morning, like 2 a.m. So, like, fighting at 3 o'clock in the afternoon is definitely a rare treat. Yeah, I mean, like I said,

well, I fought in Columbus last year, I got out. And I actually had to go to the hospital, which was, I think more because of my age, more than because of actual punishment or anything. They just wanted to be interested. But, you know, I got back to my, got to my after party about 1.30, I think it was. And, like, the place was closed it out. Only person there was Coleman.

And he still, he was saved me a piece of steak and a piece of cake. That was all those left. He'd done ravaged everything else. Where was your after party? Because I didn't get an invite. So I just assumed, like, there wasn't one. So I had no idea. No, no, it was a, it was a private party.

Body Armor put it on. They helped me out a lot of. and there was a private part of like six or eight people. I was at Jeff Rubies, which is the best thing out in town. You've never been there. You've got to check it out. Or if you're in the Cincinnati area,

you got to check it out. Jeff Ruby's amazing. Yeah, so I get there and there's, you know, Coleman Dunn ravaged everything and everybody left. He's just kind of hanging out by himself, but eating steak still on it. But he had to be safe for me.

You know, all the years, all the years I've covered MMA, I don't generally go to after parties because, A, like mostly, I'd say 99% of the time I'm working. I have to process interviews and write. So I never, I've, but I did one post-fight party in my entire life. And it was in Pittsburgh when the UFC went there and I went to Joe Lozons, after party. But it wasn't an after-party because Joe Lozons is not really an after-party guy. It was at Permanati Brothers.

You know what that is in Pittsburgh, the restaurant. It's like a sandwich restaurant. and he just had sandwiches for all his friends and family. And so I showed up there, like after I got up to press covers, I showed up there and had a sandwich with Joe Loz on. That's literally the only post-fight party I've ever been to in the 20 years I've been covering this point. I've never been to another one.

Was it a good sandwich? It was a good sandwich. It was a good time. It was just like, because I'm not a big drinker, and I really hate nightclub. So I'm just like, you're not going to get me into a place with like the thumping music unless, you know, you get me to a concert. You can give me to like a kill-switching gate.

concert, I'll do that for an after-party. But, yeah, I don't really have any interest in going to a nightclub. And so when he's like, no, dude, I'm going to have my Permanetti brothers. I was like, all right, now you got me interested. You got me kind of interested in this after-party. Was that the Pittsburgh card that I fought on? I think so. I think that's the only one, isn't it?

That one card? Is there another one? Was it? I have no idea. I know that I fought on one there is all I know. And I did that party. That was the one you fought Daniel Roberts. No.

I've never fought him. Who am I thinking of? Hold on. I thought there. It might have been John Howard. That's what it was. John Howard. Not only why I said,

Daniel, I was thinking of John Howard. That's what it was. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, that's the one. Because Daniel Roberts fought on that card

because I remember, hold on, let me look at this card. That's going to bug me now. I got to pull this up. Where's it at? Where's it at? Where's it?

Because I know I saw you that week. I know I talked to you that week. I'm just trying to remember if I'm, I'm, if I'm remembering this correctly, if I'm just completely losing my mind. There it is. Okay. Yeah, that was, okay, there's two, there were two Pittsburgh cards. Okay, yeah, Daniel Roberts was on that card.

The reason I remember Daniel Roberts being on that card was because, yeah, he's a welterweight. Okay, I was right. The reason I remember Daniel Roberts being in that card is because after the weigh-ins, him and Gilbert Melendez, who was his coach, was there, and I've known Gil for years, they wanted to go get pasta for their after-way-in meal. Well, if you remember where that fight was, the fighter hotel was out by the airport. That's like 30 minutes away from downtown. It's like way out there.

Like, I don't know why they put the fighters out in the hotel by the airport. It's like way to hell out there. So they're like after the way-ins, him and Daniel Roberts, those guys are like, hey, would you mind giving us a ride to a restaurant? So I had my car with me. And he's like, would you mind give us a ride to a restaurant? We want to eat some pasta after the wayans. So I was like, sure.

So I drove them to like an olive garden or one of the, you know, like one of the chain, you know, pasta restaurants in Pittsburgh because they had no way to get around and the shuttle was going to take them all the way back to the host hotel at the freaking airport, which was like 30 minutes away. So I'll take you. So I remember that's how I remember Daniel Roberts being on that car. So I took him to a, took him to an olive garden or something after the way ends. Nice.

Nice. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that was the car, Nate Marcourt, when he got tested positive or something. That was. Yep. that was it was uh yeah that exactly was it was check congo pat barry was the manned it was a crazy comeback knockout crazy fight yeah yeah that was it yeah you're absolutely right yeah you're absolutely

right that you're good memory i completely forgot there was another pittsburgh car too because i know what's probably easier for me to remember being that i fought on i think yeah that was good yeah joe lozahn fought kurt warburton on that card that's that was his card uh charles olivera fought nick lins on that card. Let's see who also Tyson Griffin was on that. Matt Mitreone and Christian Moorcraft, Charlie Brennam and Rick Story, and then Czech Congo and Pat Berry. Yeah, man. That's a classic. That is. That is a good car. Pretty good card. Was that, I assume you stayed at the host hotel, correct? Yeah. Do you remember that was the one where Obama was there? Do you remember that? Yes, I do. Okay. Yeah, okay. So I showed up and President Obama was at that

same hotel and so when you got there you had to go through some insane security because i got there and they had to check my bag and they were like searching me down i was like what the hell is going on and it was because president obama was there i remember that i was like holy crap like it was so intense because like they had like i mean it was like hardcore security obviously understandable why but uh i was like what the hell's going on here and then they're like yeah president obama's here i was like oh geez so it was at the same hotel where the fighters were staying yeah that's pretty cool right i remember one of the UFC staffs said they went down to do a workout

and he was down with it was what was his name the guy who the Bert, Bert, Bert Watson Oh, was it Bert? Okay. Yeah, Bert. I remember because Bert said he got to meet him. Bert said he got to meet Obama. He went down to like the sauna, like the workout area and he got to meet Obama. Wild stuff. Good jobs, man.

Yeah, God, what year was that? That feels like a lifetime ago. 2011. God, that was that long ago. Jeez, man. That doesn't seem right. It is. 2011, 13, 12 years ago. God. Yeah. We're getting old, Matt.

We're getting mold. Yeah, well, I don't think they've come back to Pittsburgh sensation. They need to, man, because I just drove out there. I'm like two and a half hours away. Yeah, yeah. I lived in Pittsburgh for several years. So it was like a super quick. I wasn't living there at the time.

I was living in Ohio, but I lived in Pittsburgh for like six years. So, yeah, it was a return. So, yeah. Anyways, yeah, good stuff. So another afternoon card this time around at UFC Charlotte. So let's get into a Matt, of course, UFC 287 this past week and Israel Adasanya got his revenge. Second round knockout against Alex Pereira, the fourth time they fought. This time, Israel Adasanya got it done.

And I told several people during the fight and before the fight and after the fight, I said, I never had a good, I never had a great reason why I thought Israel Adasanya was going to win. I just said I refused to believe someone as good as him. was going to lose to the same guy for a fourth time. And when he knocked him out, I was like, all right, I was justified because I just, I couldn't, like, I couldn't give you, I ought to this day, I can't give you a good reason why I was sold he was going to win the fight. I just couldn't believe he was going to lose to somebody for a fourth time.

And boy, did he pull it out, man, in spectacular fashion. Well, I think that's exactly right. When you got guys fighting at that level with that skill set, it's hard to beat a guy four times, you know? And, you know, when I, I didn't watch the fight till Sunday, right? I don't like staying up so late at night anymore, you know, especially when I'm in camp. I do an exact bedtime every night, exact wake up every morning. So I watched it Sunday.

Now, it was kind of interesting, watching it already knowing who won, and something kind of popped in my head when I watched it on Sunday, knowing the Izzy had already won. And as I'm watching them, walk out, I thought, you know, the one overlooked part of this whole thing, we all seen as all the pressure on Adasanya, right, because he lost three times before. This is the monster in his closet, all that. The pressure really, there was a lot of pressure also on Alex that I think maybe got overlooked a little bit where, you know, for one, he's the champion, right? And being a champion in glory versus being a champion in the UFC

are very different things, right? You know, now you have media obligations, you have, you know, the hype, you have, you know, just a completely different amount of love and admiration and people wanting to talk to you and be a part of your life and, you know, get a piece of that pie, right?

All these things. So I think there was a lot of pressure on him. And it kind of also brought into my mind that, you know, say I train with the guy every day at the gym, even not a great guy. Like it would just be, you know,

maybe an amateur or somebody decent or something. If I keep doing the same thing over and over to them, even if they're not good, like they're going to pick up on it, right? And they don't even have to be that good to be able to start figuring out a way to counter. And then I have to evolve my game. So Alex has done this three times.

you know, I didn't see where he really evolved his game much more. Whereas Izzy did, he knew the mistakes that he made. He knew what he had to do to fix what was broken. Where Alex is like, dude, I did it three times. I just got to go do it again. But now also all the pressure is on him, you're supposed to win. You beat him three times. So I think these are, you know, when I rewatch it the next day,

these are some of the things that kind of came to my. mind that I think maybe we kind of overlooked and maybe that's where that gut feeling came from. Yeah, and also, you know, something that Israel said after the fight, and I know it's true, but I didn't really think about it beforehand, but by every measurable, like, you know, metric in our sport, Alex Pereira shouldn't have been there. I mean, he hadn't really gone. He hadn't really earned. He hadn't really, I mean, again, being honest, he hadn't really earned that shot.

He got it because he had beaten Israel twice in kickboxing at that point. Like it wasn't because he was truly the number one contender and he had laid ways to Whitaker and Vittori and all the guys that have been contenders for all those years. He beat, I mean, he did beat a good, you know, he beat Sean Strickland. That's a good win. But that's not like, you know, he didn't go through a murderer's road to get there. You know what I mean? And you wonder, like, and to the U.S. He's credit, there's a good chance he would have lost one of those fights and then you don't get it.

Like, they had to do it. And listen, it turned out to be a great story because he did end up beating Israel became champion. but I kind of lost track of that because he seemingly had Israel's number that I kind of lost track of the fact that, again, Alex is like an eight-fighted MMA fighter, you know, and he's in like his fourth UFC fight. Again, with a world title. Yeah, and he's like four fights in his UFC. He said like eight fights total, four fights in the UFC. Like, and I agree with you, like, listen, Glory is a great organization, and they put on great cards, but it's not the UFC.

It's not the same level of the end. Kickback, again, I have tremendous respect. It's just not the same. Exactly. When you're two-weight world champion like he was in glory and he walks down the street of Miami, maybe one guy

recognizes somebody that's a hardcore fan. After he beat Adasania, he's not walking anywhere and not getting recognized and people are worshipping him. That plays mental tricks on you, man. Yeah, it's weird. Like, again, I think, I'll fully admit it.

I got lost in the fact that he had beaten him three times. And again, I picked Israel. I picked Israel to win. But you're absolutely right. Like, the pressure was on. And again, that's a different level of pressure when there, I mean, listen, I don't think that Alex was lacking confidence, but somewhere deep down inside you got to think about it.

Like, your eight fights, nine fights, whatever it is in your career, you're already a champion. And you're facing this guy who you've been. You've been called his boogeyman. You're the guy who's supposed to be able to be. But in all reality, you didn't go through blood, sweat, and tears to get to him. You did have a good knockout over a quality opponent in Sean Strickland, but you didn't have to go through a laundry list of top middleways to get there. And so I don't know, maybe doubt creeps in.

And then you've got to deal. Like you said, you get dealt with the media and the press conference. Now you're the champion. You're no longer the challenge you're coming after the champion. You're the, all eyes were on you, expectations were high, all those kind of thing. So yeah, I mean, and also we got to remember he was technically the underdog. Like they still had Israel favored to win because Israel won, you know, the majority of their last

fight, he got caught in the fifth round and got finished. But he won the majority. So Alex, and to Alex's credit, he looked good early. He had a good first round and he had a really good second. I really did the leg kicks. He had damaged Israel's leg. But then it was almost like a repeat of the end of the first round of the last fight where it seemed like he got a little overconfident,

and he threw offense and forgot to play defense. Yeah, when you watch the way that Izzy fought also, you know, the biggest adjustment that I've seen Izzy make was he wasn't trying to neutralize Alex Pereira anymore. He was firing back,

and he, you know, he claims that he trapped him, you know, did a little rope-a-dope type thing against the cage. And I think that, you know, that's true. But, you know,

doing things like, Like, you just can't say enough good things about Israel out of Sonia, man. Like, this was, to me, is probably the most epic, you know, wasn't a comeback, you know, necessarily, like, within the fight. But overall, it was a comeback story. And this has to be the most epic comeback story in the history so far. And, I mean, he overcame everything in this fight. I said it before the fight. This was for his legacy.

And boy, did he go out. fucking define his legacy and put a fucking stamp on it. Hopefully they get to fight again and we get to see, you know, kind of the final chapter of the story. But, you know, you just can't say enough good things about Israel, Adasanya, man, you know, to come out and do it that way. And the way he fought, it felt to me like he fought ballsyer this time. Like he had that confidence, even though he'd been knocked out twice by this guy

and lost the third time, like, he fought with him. confidence. He fought knowing that this was going to happen. He fought with pure belief and confidence. And it's just amazing, man. To be able to come out and do that, he did. I feel like the first enemy fight, he was really defensive, right? Like he would kind of like touch and go or touch and grab. And this time he was like, he was like, I'm going to fucking hurt you this time. And he did exactly that. You know what else I loved about it and I actually really do believe in the whole rope-a-dope angle because if you remember one thing we talked about in the breakdown leading into the fight, the biggest mistake that Israel made and one of the biggest mistakes that he made

in the last was he kept backing up against the cage and allowing Alex to trap him there and unload because that's one guy you don't want to have trapped is Alex just staying there teeing off on you. He didn't do that in this fight until the end. He allowed himself to get backed up there and that's why when he did that I was like this when he when he said it later and he's like he kind of rope a dope to me kind of lured him in I believe him because he didn't do that the rest of the fight

he was doing that constantly in the other fight he kept backing up backing up backing up and we're like stop doing that you can't do that to Alex Pereira he didn't do it this time he was circling he was throwing offensively he had Alex on a backstep they were very center of the octagon they were not backing up when he backed up

that time my first thought was uh-oh here we go. And Alex, and Alex started T it up. I was like, oh my God, it's happening. And then when Israel knocked him out, and then when he talked about it later,

I was like, you know what? I believe him because he had not backed up to that point in the fight. He'd lured him in. I totally believe he did that because he'd lured him in. He's like, okay,

you did it to me last time. Come forward. When he did, he caught him. And boy, you could not ask for a better exclamation point on a fight than to knock out the guy that had knocked you out twice. and it was nasty.

And I know you said third fight, or I guess fifth fight, third fight in MMA. My initial instinct was that also. Like you fought twice, let's do it again. But here's the thing, and I will say this. There's options out there. Obviously, you know, Jan Belhovic suddenly said,

I'll drop down to 185 and fight shit. That's interesting. He has a win over Israel. That'd be kind of fun. Maybe another revenge fight for Israel. Obviously, Hamza Chamaiav is coming down to 185. I think he needs to get a win first. before he could get to Israel, but that's interesting,

the wrestling, the power, Chimaeimai. I read he's fighting Costa today. A lot of rumors. A lot of rumors. It's not done yet, but there's a lot of rumors he might fight Costa in October. It's right before we jumped on, I seem to do it. I don't know if it's a good source or not, they said it was confirmed. It was Chelsa.

It was Chil Sonan was the source. So take it with a grain of salt. Yeah. But I have heard legitimate rumors about that. Just nothing's done. It's October. It's the Al-Badabi card. I don't think they really.

really put it together yet. But I know that's one they're talking about. Like there is legitimate interest there. If he beats Paulo Costa, Hamza at Chamaio. Here's the one thing I'll say about prayer. I agree in principle, like, they should fight again. But here's what I would say, though. I'd really like to, if Alex

is going to stay at middleweight, and I know Dana said, you know, maybe he goes to light, heavy weight, they'll be healthier there, and he'll be better there. Maybe that's true. But if he's going to stay at middleweight, I'd like to see him get one win over another legitimate guy. Like, it's not that he doesn't deserve it because he does have the rivalry with Adasania,

but I like to see him go out there and get tested. Like, Whitaker is a great example. Whitaker's got two losses to Israel. He's not going to fight Israel again. If you can beat Robert Whitaker, then I have zero problem with you fighting Israel Autosania again. But if you can't, and I don't know that he can because Robert Whitaker is a,

he's a motherfucker man. That is one. You do, like Robert Whitaker's a bad dude. Then move on. And it's not because I don't like Alex Prairer. I don't want to, you know, like whatever. I just, I want to see him walk through the fire one more time because he got there under the condition that he had fought Israel and beat Israel.

Now, he did beat him. Credit to him for doing it. But I think if it's horary, one of these guys, like one of these top guys that's been there, I think he's got to go through one of those guys to get back to Israel again. Yeah, I think I totally understood. I think, you know, if they do it a third time, you know, it's for the story, right? That's a, but that's what sells. So that's what, you know, I wouldn't mind seeing it for that, my damn self, right?

I just, I want to see the story come to a close and one of them wins the end of the book, right? Like that's, I want to see a victor, you know. Right now it feels to me like they're even. But, you know, whatever happens happens. You know, if Alex says to fight another guy, go two or five, whatever it is, you know, I, again, we talk about how many times do you say, like, throw the word deserve. out of your mouth. Like, that's not what this is about. And the story of Brera Adasanya 3,

I can't see it getting bigger than that. I mean, especially in middleweight. And that's what I want to see. I mean, that stokes me up. That fires me up. So high level. And the last thing I would add, you know, on this is the one thing I was happy to see that Adasanya did versus the second fight,

which we were just talking about a minute ago. You know, in the second fight, I get the feeling that he kind of relied on being able to wrestle Alex a little bit and probably put a little bit of emphasis, maybe too much emphasis in his camp on the wrestling. And I felt like this fight, he just threw that out the window and said, I'm not wrestling you, you're not wrestling me. We're doing a kickboxing match and I'm fucking you up.

And I commend him for that, right? Like that took balls for him to do that. That took courage. That took bravery. and took all the things that qualify a champion like God to sign it. And I think you've got to start putting him in the top five go list now. Yeah, I think, I still think there's a little bit of work to do to catch up to Anderson. I just can't not put Anderson number one all time in middleweight, but Israel is number two, without a doubt.

And I think there's a world where he can pass him. Like there's a world where he can pass Anderson Silva, especially because. My question is, is there a world where he can pass him with less title defenses? Yeah. The title defenses are impressive. Don't get me wrong. Like, that's an incredible – and I've said many times, Matt, that it bugs the hell out of me, that champions don't defend their titles anymore, that everyone wants to jump divisions

and champ champ and all this shit. Like, dude, you know what's tough? Do what Demetri's Johnson did. Do what Anderson Silva did. Do it GSP did. That's what's hard is defending your title. Because we just saw it. Kamar Usman looked as dominant as any champion.

He was number one pound for pound. He lost to Leon Edwards. Israel-A-Sahnya was on a run, seven fights in a row, whatever. He lost a prayer. It is hard to defend your title eight, nine, ten, eleven times. That being said, I think Israel can do it under two conditions. One, he continues to do what he's doing, continue to put wins together. He can't break the record now because he'd have to go through, you know, he'd have started a ten fights between.

So you can't do that. and the other thing is get out while the getting's good and what i mean by that is is is keep winning and then either retire on top or know when to walk away because i love anderson silver i adore that guy i've i was lucky enough to be around him for the biggest even before he's i saw him fight in in rumble in the rock in hawaii so i've been around anderson silver so much of his career i love that dude but i'm a big believer in you can't just discount a guy's entire career because he had one incredibly great run. Anderson was as dominant and as good as anybody in the sport.

But we can't just erase that he lost to Wydenman, that he lost a Wyman again, that he lost a Bisping. Now again, I was later in his career he was older. Yes, I understand. I'm not saying it diminishes what he did. I'm just saying that you can't ignore it when you're stacking it up to other people. Like Anderson, like GSP went out on top. He didn't go out losing five in a row.

He didn't go out losing bad fights. I'm going to disagree with you on that because I think, you know, if any fighter keeps fighting like that happens, right? There's a, there's sort of a contraction and expansion in every fighter's career, right? Like all the, you're firing on all the cylinders. And then you're going to, you know, you're going to start misfiring. It's just a natural thing. And I don't disagree.

But when we talk about comparing goat against goat, you know, we're talking about the prime. versus their prime, not what happened at the end. Well, here, no, I'm not disagreeing there. What I'm saying is for Israel, though, the way Israel can pass Anderson without the title to Vince streak is to continue winning these big fights and then get out before he gets, before he goes to that level is what I'm saying. That's where he would want up Anderson a little bit because Anderson did, even when he was still technically in his prime when he lost to Wyman, he got a little cute and Wybin put

him out. And you go, okay, let's just say that's the, let's say that's the equals of the Pereira thing, which I disagree with, because Chris Weiban was a vastly more experienced fighter than Pereira was at that point. But if he can go out there and win a few more, and, you know, if he goes out there and beats Chamev, and he can go out there and beat Pereira for a second time, and maybe he beats Blahovic at 185, he vanquishes that demon, then I think, yeah, that's how he does it, because he will have equal total number of fights, and he'll have impressive wins.

and if he doesn't go on a long streak of losing or just sticking around too long, and we don't have memories of that, I think that's where you talk about he could Trump Anderson. I just said Anderson is the greatest middleweight of all time without question. Like, I still have number one. My point is when you start comparing records or comparing resumes, I think that's where Israel could jump him. It's because if he goes out, he has two losses on his record. And I think he's like 20 and 2 or 22 and 2, whatever the record is. If he retires at 30 and 2 as champion, done to me, you know, like that's something Anderson didn't do.

Fair enough. Yeah, I guess when I think of the kind of guys do it like Khabib, right? That's the first thing that comes to my mind. You know, he retired on top and therefore a lot of people kind of put him up there as, you know, a lot of people put him as the greatest of all time. and, you know, first off, we all know that this is such a arbitrary argument, right? It is. It is. It's a pointless argument, right? We're just, you know, kind of talking opinion versus opinion. It's not, you can't really go fact versus fact here and say like, this is how it is. It's just, you know, feeling versus a feeling, right?

And so I think there's a lot of biases that come in and, you know, it's kind of what do you gauge versus what do I gauge and things like that. but, you know, I like to see guys fight, you know, I guess till the wheels fall off when you're talking about the greats because I want to see how far they can go and then, you know, continue to test themselves. I think that's a part of greatness personally, you know, is testing yourself beyond, you know, still having that fire to come back even though you did lose, right? Like, I love Khabib, you know, no disrespect to him at all, but like he retired on top. And, you know, we didn't get to.

to see how far he could go. And he didn't push the threshold, didn't push that limit, didn't live on the edge. That's what I like to see, you know? And, you know, when you kind of take that way, GSP somewhat of the same, you know. I think he pushed a little farther. But, yeah, I like to see that personally. Well, I agree with you on Khabib. I think Khab is a different case because he was just getting into his run.

when he retired. Like he had just beaten Gage. He had just beaten Porreier and like you're like, okay, he's about to rip off like a nine fight, you know, time events and then he retired.

He retired early. And while I do think he is one of the greatest, he's not, me, the greatest, I mean, to me again, this,

and as you said, it's all arbitrary. There's no right or wrong answer. I always put John Jones number one because a couple of factors. One is the laundry list of guys he's beaten. He's basically undefeated. And he's done it for a decade plus.

that matters to me. He became a champion in 2011. He's been a champion basically since then. Has he royally messed up and done stupid things to lose the title and say, sure, absolutely. And I know, of course, we got to talk about the PED accusations, all that kind of stuff. But doing it for 12 years on top and beating the absolute best guys of the world. And beating Daniel Cormier, who could easily be in that same conversation, now doing it a heavyweight. like that's why I put Jones and GSP and Anderson

ahead of a guy like Habib who I think is amazing but Habib got out three you know he got out like right as he started to hit his peak 100% yeah you know when you really get when you really get into the weeds of it and like when we talk about John Jones and I'm gonna I'll just discount any PED stuff because the fact is you know I'm a firm believer the vast majority of guys that once they make enough money, like they're probably doing some shit. Like 99% they're doing some shit. I'm a firm believer that the whole USADA thing is just simply for optics for the

UFC. And the biggest thing that it does is keep the poor guys at a disadvantage and the wealthier guys at an advantage and whatever. That's a whole different conversation. But if we cancel all that out, you know, when you look at John Jones, not only the the fucking win streak and the title defenses and all, but the way that he did it, like with ease. And like you mentioned Daniel Cormier,

he didn't just beat Daniel Cormier. He knocked him out. And like he took Daniel Cormier down. He must have been the only person to ever take Cormier down. Sure, right? Like no one's even probably didn't even try, right? you know so when you look at the method and you know it looks like he's not even trying much of the time

so yeah it's by far john jones yeah that's why i think john jones gs p anderson demetrechonsonson's in that list like and these are guys who did it for a long time and again it's not a knock on kabb and i understand why he retired his dad passed away he made a promise to his mom i'm never going to fault that guy he made a lot of money he's happy now so i'm not faulting him for doing what he did and getting out I'm just saying that he got out right when he was starting to really hit that peak. Had he gone, had he still been going and doing what, you know, obviously continued where Islam is now at,

but if he had beaten Volcanovsky and he had beaten, you know, Olivera and all these other guys, then he would probably be in that. He would probably be, it'd probably be him and Jones. Like, as like the top two is guys who never face defeat and they just beat everybody. But he got, and again, I don't fault him. Good for you. Like, I got no problem that he got out. And you know what?

I'm sure as he's laying on piles of cash, he didn't give a shit that we don't think he's number one. But like I said, that's where I put guys like John Jones and George St. Pierre and Anderson Silva and Demetrius Johnson, guys who did it just over just incredibly long stretches of time. Because that's the, man, that's the hardest thing. Like I just talking about the title defense is like it's just so hard to stay on top or near the top for a decade. Like that's so fucking hard. yeah yes and uh speaking of long range or not rains i guess but you know guys have been around for a long time like how about masvedal and burns bro like that was a fucking uh what a performance by burns man gilbert looked great uh great game plan went in there took it to horay man i tell you

what i tell you what i one thing i was super impressed me in that fight was my god masvado has a chin he took some he took some shots that i guarantee you would have put guys out i mean burns hit him with some bombs and and and he hurt him but mazadol wouldn't go down man i was like good god like i know maslidol said afterwards he's like i just i don't feel the same anymore dude your chin didn't go anywhere because gilbert burns hit him with some shots and he kept coming i was like holy shit how's he standing and you know he looked like he didn't feel the same also you know when you looked at his demeanor, his posture. It's hockey season, and you can get

anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get a nice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice, yes, we deliver those. Goaltenders, no, but chicken tenders, yes, because those are groceries,

and we deliver those too, along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Availability varies by region. See out for details. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. A new era of fitness is here.

Introducing the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ. Built for breakthroughs with personalized workout plans, real-time insights, and endless ways to move. Lift with confidence. While Peloton IQ counts reps, corrects form, and tracks your progress. Let yourself run, lift, flow, and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus at one point. Peloton.C.A. You know, smiling at birds when you hit him, kind of knowing that he's down and not really going for it.

I got the feeling that what he said was very authentic. It's weird, too, because as we said, that fight for Mazadol was, I mean, complete, you know, 180, one way or the other. He was either going to potentially get a title shot against Leon Edwards or he was going to retire. We talked about that leading into the fight, and that's exactly what played out. he lost, didn't look like himself, didn't feel like himself, and he retired. And, you know, again, Mazinol's made a lot of money. And he said that this is the weird thing. When you become a superstar in this sport, you can't really go back from that.

And what I mean by that is, is you can no longer work your way up the ranks, really. Like, you are now a superstar. You're going to put on big fights and fights that can sell pay-per-views. Mazin-all can't go back to the first fight on the undercard and fight the number 15-ranked well-time. to wait and work his way back up because he's getting paid a lot of money and they want to put him out there and sell pay-per-views. He's not in a position now where he can work his way back up. There's the one maybe a little bit of danger in becoming a superstar and suddenly you can't just fight anybody and you can't like, hey, I need a, you know, I need to get back in there

and like go down. Like he's got rivalry fights and whatever. So there was no going back from Maslidol and he made a lot of money and good for him. And again. Well, the other side of that coin, too, though, is that now with him retiring, there's so many opportunities for him to make more money than he would in the UFC, you know, fighting fucking Logan Paul, Jay Paul, or, you know, or Nate Diaz or, you know, his own show, you know, Roy Jones type thing or anything, even Anthony Pettis. You know, there's so many other opportunities. And we all know he's a boxer at heart.

He's going to go box. I think we all know this. Yeah, I mean, he says he's not, but I mean, come on now. Everyone always says that. Like, you know, we know everyone. Like, you know, Marlon Marius retired three months later. He signs a PFL. That's just how it works. We know he's going to get home. He's going to get in the gym. He's going to get an opportunity. And he had a great relationship with the UFC. They're going to be like, yeah, dude, go box. Go box Anthony Pettis. Go box Logan Paul or Jake Paul or Nate Diaz and make your money. And good for him. Like I said, I have no problem with that. And listen, dude, you know, we've talked about retirement, things like that before. You know, everyone's got their own path. There is no right or wrong answer to it. You know what I mean? Some guys are done at 32.

Other guys are done at 46. There's no right or wrong answer to it. And if he felt done good for him and go do your thing, man. Mazvedal was a, here's one thing I'll say about Mazved. I said it kind of on Twitter the other day. Like for years, he was like the underappreciated guy. Like everyone knew Mazvedol and everyone was like, oh, my God, dude, Masadol's a monster.

But he just never, he never got pressed. He never, you know, he was never that dude. He was never like the scarface gangster that he turned into. And then, you know, after he had that long layoff and he basically came back and more or less said, fuck it. And then went out there knocked out Daryntill, knocks out Ben Ascran, and then the rest is history. But like, I think people forget, like, how long Mazvedol's been fighting. Yeah, I've been watching for many, many years.

So, yeah, I know that for sure. And, you know, I guess before that long layoff, right, like he, you know, we all knew how skilled he was. We all knew that he was one of the top guys. But he never did finish guys a lot. Like he went on a long streak, I think, of just decisioning guys. Even lost a couple that were probably bad decisions or at least, you know, tough decisions to call. And then he comes back and it was like, fuck it. I'm just going for it.

Like you said, he said, fuck it and start going for it. it paid, you know, massive dividends for him. Like it just changed his life. And, like you said, good for him, man. Like, I think there's a lot of guys probably similar paths to him that are, you know, beasts like that. And they don't ever get that payoff. There are certain guys that when they, when they reach that payoff that you kind of do feel like,

it's weird. This is not a knock on Connor McGregor because Connor McGregor's earned it. Like, he became a star, but he came in day one. People were paying attention to him in the UFC. Like even on his first fight afterwards, people were like, who is this guy? What? Connor, what? Like, and then he blew up immediately.

Mazadol took the longest fucking road to, like, get people to pay attention to him because he, he, he, I'll never forget. I wish I could find the radio show or article I wrote about it. When he fought Gilbert Burns for the lightweight title in Strike Force, I said, this is the guy. And I'll be honest, I picked Gilbert to win the fight and Gilbert did win their fight. But I said, this is the guy who took the, what's that? Melendez. Yep, Gilbert Lendez. He said...

Oh, Gilbert Burns. Sorry, Gilbert Melendez. And he fought Gilbert Melendez and I said, I said, this is the guy who took a long way to get here, but man, do not underrate Gilbert, do not underrate Jorge Mazidol in this fight. Like, you know, Jorge is a monster.

He just doesn't get, he doesn't get the attention because that's just not who he is. Boy, like, when he got there and he made it, I was kind of like, in a weird way, I was like happy for him. Because, man, like, there's certain guys you know how it is, Matt.

you bust your ass and you're just, you know, you just don't become a household name. And, you know, you're more of a household name. But like some guys, you know, like I always bring on Mike Pyle. For some reason, Mike Pyle's one example. A guy who busted his ass had a great reputation amongst fighters, but just never, never quite reached that level of like, you know, real stardom or where people really knew who he was. So, like, I was legitimately happy for Jorge Mazzadol when he became a star. I was like, God, man, good for you.

Like, good for you. Yeah, something I said, there's a lot of guys out there just like I just never reach it. I mean, I don't really think I'm a household name necessarily, but, you know, probably among MMA fighters with household MMA fighters, you know, but, you know, not like to the level of a Connor or certainly not Connor or George Monsmeda, but, you know, but yeah, Mike Piles is a great example. Like he's a guy that's a little different, though, where he just couldn't get it done under the lights, man. And like he was just such a, and I knew that when I fought him, right?

Because I trained with him before and I was like, God, this guy, like, how am I going to beat this motherfucker? Why don't I got to fight him? I mean, he was a friend of mine and, like, he taught me a lot of tricks and stuff. And I was like, God damn, like, everybody knew, you know, he was the guy to avoid an extreme couture. Like, because he's going to beat the hell out of you. And, you know, that's extreme couture. That's where every savage was going, especially back in the day. And then, but I knew that he didn't.

perform under the lights well and that's how I took advantage of it. I was like, you know, it went out there. Fortunately, you know, like I said, he's a great example, man. I don't need to get into mind and fight with him, but he's a great example. But there's a lot of guys like that, man. There's a lot of guys that are just flying under the radar that are just savages, man. We see him in the gym all the time.

You get to some gym and you'll find some guy, you know, just fucking blows your mind what he can do. And you're like, dude, why aren't you a world champion right now? And, you know, it just works out that way sometimes. I mean, when I was at Factory X, there was probably more guys there like that than any place I'd ever been. They had so many guys that would just give you fucking hell all over the place. And then for whatever reason, they just never panned out. Some of them are starting to pan out now, like Guterres.

He's won. Like, I knew it back of the day. I was like, God, this guy is a savage, man. There's a couple more others also. Yeah, it's true. I don't know. I always fall back to Mike Pyle because everybody you ever talked to is like if there was a, if there was a united, you know, if there was like a ultimate gym championship guy, it was Mike Pyle. Like every single person would be like, that dude will beat your ass.

But he just couldn't quite. I want to see Sean Strickland versus Mike Pyle in the gym. But you just win the light, but that's, we were talking earlier about the whole Pereira thing. Like when the lights come on and there's 19,000. people and millions more watching, that's a whole other level of pressure. Like, it's just a different, and some people aren't built for that.

And that's okay. That's not a knock on them. That's okay. But it takes a special fucking breed to go out there and do what you do and go out there and perform at that level because I, dude, I like, I would shit myself.

Like, I have no doubt in my mind. There'd be a brown streak running behind me as I left the cage because I'm not built for that. I know I'm not. That's why I hold fighters in such high admiration because it takes fucking balls of steel to go out there and do what you do. And some guys, and again, it's not a knock on them. It's just some people aren't, they can't do that.

They, they wilt under the lights. And because that's why we always talk about like the, you know, you go in and break your ass physically to get ready for a fight. Every fighter does. Or most fighters, I assume do. But then it's the mental side. You know what I mean? If you're not mentally there when you walk into that. cage, you're fucked.

I mean, and it's not just the pressure. There's a million different things, but if you're not mentally there, you're beating more or less. Yeah, it's just, I think a matter of fighters dealing with consequences differently, right? Like the consequences of losing a gym are very low. One old mental coach I had used to use the analogy of, you know, if he put a two by four on the floor and, you know, could you just walk across it, right? without falling off by just one foot in front of the other,

just balance yourself on two by four. Yeah, you could probably do it, right? Now, if he puts it 100 feet up in the air and the consequence of stepping off his death, you know, how many people can do it. And that's what it takes for a fighter to be able to do it. Like the consequences completely change when you're under the lights.

And that's just a separator from the good and the great, man. And, you know, I've dealt with some of these things before two, you know, I haven't always performed under lights. And I think most fighters would be honest with you. You'd be like, you know, sometimes I beat myself before I walked in there. And sometimes I thrive on it more. Like, I'm the type of guy personally where when there's a bigger crowd and there's more pressure, I actually feel better and perform better.

Well, when it's a lesser crowd or a lower pressure, that's why I wanted the crowds back so bad, right? When there's no crowd, like, you know, I can handle it. And I can still fight it. like I know how to do this, right? Like, I know how to fight. I'm still a tough motherfucker. I'm still a bad dude.

But it just doesn't get the same. And you don't give that same energy. It's a weird. I know it's not a good example, not a good comparison, but the best I can give you for like, and I'm saying this to you because you know, like when you go,

I know again, totally different, but in terms of energy, when you go to a really great concert and the crowd is fucking into it and it's loud and the band feeds off it, right? and the band puts on a better show. And then you and I have both probably been to shows where the crowd kind of sucks. There's no energy and just the band's not giving it back and the show.

And like a band that you know is good. They're just like, eh, kind of like, we leave the concert. You're kind of like, that was kind of shitty. Like it wasn't a good show. It's a give and take, right? And that energy you get, like, because I know how much you hated fighting in the apex. Like how just like it just, it's a different. Yeah, you're a pro.

You're going to go out and fight and you can go out and win and you won and things like that. But there's certain energy you get. it from being there in that crowd and again like i said not everyone's built that way but obviously sounds like you are where like that energy that that feed you you know walking out and the music hits and fucking 19 000 people losing their minds and the introductions the crowd like you know that you feed on that like that's an energy for you and that's what i like i know it's a bad comparison with the whole musician thing with the concert but like that's what i think of because i've been to concerts where the crowd is just dog shit and the band reacts to that like they're

just like we're not going to give energy because you're not giving us energy and that's kind of like again with the fight thing like when you go out there in the fight the crowd and you don't have that and it's just a again you can get past it obviously you have and done but yeah there's just so like you said you thrive under the lights you thrive when there's 19,000 people losing their shit yeah I mean I want more like when I fought in Brazil I think there were 60,000 people and I mean I just absolutely loved it you know I didn't end up winning you know like Damien Maia's tough matchup for me I guess or whatever but I absolutely loved him and and I totally feel like I thrived in that situation and I think you know a lot of

people they can deal with it probably better than they think they can it's all just like thinking how they frame it to themselves how they use their own self-talked their own language and things like that and those are kind of things I'll talk about when you know I don't know if I ever mentioned on this podcast before I'm working on building a an online curriculum with, you know, I'm going to do a moitai for MMA and, you know, just MMA training altogether, you know, some ground stuff and wrestling. And part of that would be a mental side of things. And it's just to, you know, help the next generation start giving back and start, you know,

I think that's what life is all about, right? It's just giving back. You know, that's like, like a tree, for instance, like it only grows to make fruit to make other trees, right? That's what our purpose in life is, is to give back. So I mess up I'm working on. And, you know, so I'll get deep into this, man. This is, I think that, like, the self-talk and the language that people use within themselves makes a much larger difference than, you know, at first it sounds kind of woo-wooish or, you know, like you're doing fucking yoga or something.

But it actually works, man. It actually can save your life, no matter what kind of situation you're in. And when you see someone like Mark Coleman, my buddy, changing his life, you know, go follow him on Instagram, Mark D. Coleman. And when you see someone like him changes life, the first thing you notice is the burbage that he uses with himself. Yeah, it's wild, you know, going full circle back to what we talked about at the beginning, like the mental aptitude you have to make. And like another thing I just want to praise Israel out of Sonia about, like, you know, making that mental adjustment. Like that's so huge because in any. And like I'll be the first, like that again, I'm built different.

Like if somebody had beat me three times, I would be intimidated. Like I, that's, I'm not built that way. I know. Like that, that's, that's, that's normal human emotion though, right? Like when you lose, like, you're just like, I'm not, like, it's just not for me. He's not built that way, though. He's like, this beat me three. Give me four.

He beat me four. Give me five. He beat me five. Give me six. That's that. That's his mentality. And he went in there and took it. And I love that because that's what it takes to go out there and do that.

Like, he was never, he was, he may have lost, but he was never beaten. You know what I mean? Like, he lost, but he was never beaten. A hundred percent. You could have said it better myself. And that's why, to me, this was one of the most epic fights of all time. And this is, I don't know, you know, how we're going to place him in the goat list eventually. But that, the way that he did this, I can't help but put him in, you're somewhere on the top five, man.

Like, like, to be honest, I don't. think a lot of even other goats could have done that. You know, when we talk about, you know, I'm not, I don't even have to mention names, but, you know, a lot of these other guys, the great champions, I don't think could have done that. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. I mean, 100%. Like I said, I think there's, I think the best example in my opinion is John Jones, you know, almost losing Augustuson and then coming back and, you know, vanquishing that demon. He did it, you know, he's done it a couple times in his career guys that he kind of eke by and then went out there and he's done it and Cormier beat him the first time, then he went and knocked him on the second time

a guy, but that's a special breed. Like I said, you're right. Like Jones, there's a couple guys in that list, but, um, yeah, and even like, you know, you could argue GSP when he got knocked out by Sarah, but I think even Sarah, that was just, I think that was more GSP. I think that was GSP overlooking Sarah, if I'm being honest. Like, I think he just thought he was going out there and wiped him out with him. And then when he got caught, he's like, oh, shit.

And, like, he just. But that's the whole thing. I couldn't even think of other examples. But there's not. But in MMA, I can't think of any other examples of someone come back after three losses. Oh, yeah. It's only one in MMA.

But, you know, the guy standing across from him, he fought three times and beat him three times, knocked him out twice. Like, even in boxing, I can't think of any where a guy, you know, like Marquez came back and beat Paco, but he didn't get knocked out. I mean, he was, I thought he won one of them. I can't remember which one,

but one of the first two fights they had. You know, like there's times when guys lose and come back, but, I mean, he got flatlined twice. Yeah. You know, like, that's a, that is such a huge mountain, mental mountain to climb, man. Like, like, you just, we can spend the whole podcast just praising Adasanya for this moment, man.

That was just to me, you know, you got to at least, put it in one of the top five greatest fights of all the time. So where you say his top five goat, you say that and I think about it, I'm like, you're not wrong. Like, I'm trying to think of my list right now. I put John Jones number one.

Without a doubt, I put GSP up there. I put Anderson, Demetrius, Otisanya? I don't know. What's the five? What's your five? I gotta wonder if I would replace him with a, replace GSP with him.

Put him that high. I mean, look at the title defenses. How many of JSP have? Nine total. How many of Sanya have? He had seven total, yeah. Very close. You know, just on that number right there.

And, yeah, I have to sit down and think about it, I guess, and give us all opinion and arbitrary stuff. You know, when you start looking at all these. goats. I mean, there's so much that goes into it. And, you know, it's a tough one, man. I'm not sure. But, you know, maybe like even with GSP or Anderson, you know, it's like maybe even with someone, but I don't know, this fight just hit me a different way, man. And maybe I'm a little biased right now because it just happened this weekend and, you know, still a little bit high from it. But it definitely gave me a buzz, man, watching that. And, um, and I just,

just the way he did it. I just, I think that's an extremely special person to be able to do that. Well, I mean, again, and not even ranking it, but just putting him in the top five says a lot. Like, you don't have to rank him, but like top five all time, that says a lot about where he's had. I don't know whether you put him two, three, four, whatever. I don't care about that. But you would consider him top five now, top five all time Israel and Asana. I mean, I have a hard time.

Yeah, I have a hard time saying no to that. I mean, I just don't see how you could. I mean, like, what a mountain to overcome, bro. You know, like, you can't, again, I cannot sit here and say enough great things about what a competitor, what an athlete, what, and look at the guys he's beat before, too. I mean, it's not like, you know, it's not like I'm basing the whole thing off this one fight. I mean, look at the guys that he's beat before. You know, he's got a fucking resume. He's just spectacular, man.

And, boy, it, it. It's fucking amazing what he's doing. I just leave it at that. Yeah, it's, I'll be the first to admit. I lost a little faith in Israel, and he had a couple of kind of, you know, not great fights. The Canaaner fight was kind of boring.

The Vittori rematch was kind of boring. And I was like, he's just kind of coasting through. And he was going through a little bit of his John Jones phase. When John Jones was fighting Reyes and fighting Santos and just didn't seem all that interested, you know, just kind of beating the guys who were in front of him. Then he lost a prayer.

And I was like, well, you know, maybe that was just the passing of the torch. And then he came back and was like, oh, yeah, really? I'm just going to burn this guy alive. And he did it. And that's what, and Jones did the same thing. Like, I wasn't doubting John Jones going into the serial gone fight. I picked him to win that fight.

But to him to go out there and just demolish that guy inside like three minutes. I was like, yep, he's that dude. And Israel out of Sonia is absolutely that fucking dude. Yeah. And when you look at like the Caneer fight and stuff or Vittoria or whatever, I mean, look, maybe he was a little burned out. Maybe he took a little easy. I don't know.

From my perception, he fought very fucking smart. He didn't take damage in those fights, right? Like, he wasn't getting beat up. He wasn't, maybe he wasn't taking the wrist that we would like to see. But he was winning handedly. Like, I don't know if he lost a round to those guys. No, I don't think so. I don't think so.

Yeah, bro, it's like, you can't hate on a guy for not losing a fucking round. Like, why do you want to fix what's not broken? Like, you won the round, do it again. If the knockout comes, it comes. And, you know, if we want to, like, kind of compare with the other goats that we always talk about, I mean, GSP had a very unexciting career and, you know, as a champion. And, you know, we simply put him up there for his wins, his amount of wins. not losing rounds, right?

I'll be the first to admit. I probably said, you know, I just had such high, like I set an almost impossibly high standard for Israel because how good he is. Like, I'll fully admit that. Like, my expectations for him were so high that when he doesn't live up to that, I'm like, well, that was disappointing. But you're right. You're absolutely right.

Like, yeah, he absolutely dominated those guys. It's just Israel so good that, like, I expect him to just dazzle every single time. And I know that's not always going to be the case. But listen, man, he finally found the guy to make him dazzly, lost the fight, he came back out there and just, I mean, like I said, I don't root for anyone to lose, but, and, you know, in a way, I think he needed that. Like, I think he needed that prayer fight and then came out and did it. Like, I think he needed it.

And, boy, like, I wouldn't want to fight Israel's autosan on you right now. Fuck that. That dude just, he proved, like, 10 different things to me in that fight. And I'm like, nope, don't want any piece of that guy now. Yeah, look, it's sort of when you watch, like, the world's best wrestling, or, you know, the world's best anything, you know, it doesn't always get exciting, right? They have to play smart. They have to play exciting.

You know, like wrestling is a perfect example. Like, college wrestling is way more exciting than the international world championships, right? Because, like, these guys, they know, like, tiny, tiny little mistakes lead to losses, right? So they can't take that risk for that mistake. I mean, I think you see the same thing in a lot of high-level sports. Like, college football is more exciting than they're. in pro football, right? I think it's a standard thing

in sports when you get to a certain level. And I think that was also kind of what was so amazing about, like, particularly Anderson Silva. Because it wasn't just him beating these guys. Like he was making them look like they were fucking amateur sometimes.

Yeah. Doing it to what he did to Forrest Griffin and the late great Stephen Bonner and some of James Irvin when he went to do a 5. He just, oh my God, dude. Yeah, he was a killer. And yeah, like I said, man, Adasanya's in that conversation now.

Like, you're absolutely right. Like, when you really think about it, you know, like I said, I don't know the rankings. I'm just thinking on top of my head. But like, if you said Jones, GSP, Anderson, Demetrius, and Adasania, like me personally, if I said that was the list,

I'll be, yeah, I think that's pretty good. Like, that's a pretty damn good top five right there. Yeah, man. Especially with this one. Again, maybe it's just the buzz of this. fight but um this like this whole weekend with the auditsine in the way that he did that was

extra extra special and to me it was at least the most epic championship fight comeback that I've ever seen man I mean it was I can't say enough good things about it bro I go on all day I uh he doesn't do a lot of media anymore which is fine he doesn't have to

but I feel like at some point I want to get like a mental podcast to just get you and Adasanya on together. Like, I'll just bow out and let you guys talk because I think that'd be a fascinating conversation because I know how much you put into like the mental aspect of your game. And I feel like he, I mean, I know he does. He talks about it.

But like he's such a smart fighter and such a smart, like, the way he approaches it. And hearing him talk this last week and I was just fascinated by everything you was saying. And I'm just like, damn. Like I'd love to hear that conversation between the two of you guys. Just talk about like the mental aspect of fighting. Because I know you train with him.

and you have like high praise for him. But I'd love to see you guys just sit down and chat for like an hour about the mental, mental conditioning of fighting. Yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, I'd love to also, man. You know, he's a really, really cool guy. That's one of the nicest things I think I've found about Israel. Like I said, I trained with him when he was fighting for glory.

So, you know, it wasn't like famous or anything. Then, of course, I knew who it was, but most people didn't. And then I hung out with him once he was chanted. being, and it was the same guy, man. There wasn't no difference in his demeanor, how he spoke to others. He still shook everybody's hands, still hung out, still had a good time, identical, as far as I could tell. Yeah.

Awesome to hear. You love hearing that. Like I said, man, he's back on top of the world and deservedly so. What a performance. Maybe we'll see it for a third time. Real quick before we get out of here, Matt. I know we kind of just talked pretty much the entire show about 287. And this weekend, Max Holloway takes on Arnold Adams in a really intriguing featherweight fight from Kansas City, actually.

I know we didn't spend any time talking about this, and I don't want to take how much time talking about this. But do you have a pick in that one? Because Holloway's coming back, first time since he lost to Volcanovsky again. Arnold Adams is on a great run. Arnold Allen, I call him Arnold Adams. Arnold Allen is on a great run, eight or nine or ten fight winning streak, something ridiculous like that, some great winning streak. They're fighting, maybe a number one contender. fight. You got to pick in that one?

You know, I'm going to go with Holloway, man. I think matchup-wise, the way Allen fights, it just plays right into Max's game. I'm with you. I still have faith in Max. You know, it's like, dude, like, there's no shame and getting beat by Alexander Volcanowski. That guy's a monster. Credit to Volcanowski for getting it done. But I'm not ready to cash out my chips on the Max Holloway train, man.

That guy's too good. you know i think when you lose people start questioning like oh is he finally losing a step or whatever no i i think max is just as good he just he got beat by a better fighter and that's okay arnold is good arnold is good but i i can't i can't go against max man max is a monster dude when that guy fights man it's like every time he fights it's must-see television uh i love watching that dude fight him glad he's back and this is a really fun matchup and um again unless he fights Volcanovsky again i'm probably not going to pick against max against anybody at featherway like that's no offense to anybody fighting a featherway but i don't think i pick against anyone

uh i don't think i pick against max against anyone other than volkanowski yeah yeah it makes it tough for the division right because everybody's you know might have to get through max to get that title shot right he's he's gonna like vocumus love it he's just going to knock everybody on the for him, but. Everyone else is like, damn it. Yeah. The only thing I can see is like, Alan does have that power to,

you know, change the fight. You know, he's not necessarily like a knockout guy, you know, like a, you know, one punch knockout type of guy,

but I can see where he could land a hard enough shot to change the fight and put Max in a defensive mode. And that's really my only question with it. You know, I don't see, a whole lot of other paths for Alan to win this fight. Yeah.

Yeah. It's hard, man. Like, you know, we haven't seen Max lose that much, right? So we don't really know where the holes are. You know, when you look at the boxing, that plays into Max's game. So, and Alan, you know, he doesn't fight like Volcanowski does, you know, and Volcanowski is the type of matchup that's going to give Max problems every single time. they fight but um you know alan doesn't move that way he doesn't come in and out the way boltenowski does

so it's going to be uh i think it's an uphill battle for alan uh but this is also the type of fight i feel like kind of surprises people too right like this is if alan gets it done this is coming out party right like this is he's going to be on everybody's radar at this point if he's able to go in there get it done so he's going to be extra motivated he's going to be on fire he's going to give it everything he's got. But matchup-wise, it's really hard to pick against Max here, I think. Yep, I'm with you. Let's keep this train rolling, Matt.

We got two picks right last weekend. Let's keep this train rolling. We're both picking Max Holloway. Let's see we go three for three this weekend. Obviously, we say thank you to everyone that tunes into the fighter versus the rider each and every week. Matt, before we get out of here, of course, you are in the middle of your training camp five weeks to go until your fight against Court McGee on May 13th in Charlotte,

North Carolina. where can people go to support you to support what you got going on leading into your big fight on May 13th? You know, I'm the immortal, Twitter, and Instagram. Check it out. The Immortal Coffee on Twitter and Instagram. I think Twitter will allow some of the character,

so it's actually C-O-F-F-E. Yeah, the Immortal Coffee. Check out my gym, the More of Martial Arts, check out my sponsor routine, R-O-O-T-I-N-E dot C-O. How many cups of coffee do you have a day, Matt? Only one or two, honestly. Like, I don't like that.

If I drink it after like 11 o'clock in the morning, I don't even sleep at night. So it's crazy, man. I'm very, very caffeine-sensitive. But I fucking love good coffee, man. That's just the difference. It's fucking amazing coffee. The immortal cough is a different breed.

You take one of that. You'll be jacked up for like four days straight. So, you know, that's a good guy. Well, I'll tell you what, you know, the, I don't do much of anything outside of moderation, except training, right? Like, I train extreme. I fight extreme things I get. Most of my diet, most of the things I do are moderation.

I keep the caffeine in moderation, but I prefer quality over quantity. that's what my coffee company is all about quality. We have the best coffee you'll ever have. So, you know, everybody check out. I said the immortal coffee.com, The immortal coffee on Instagram and Twitter. And I'm going to keep on with my quality morning cup or two of coffee. Every time, see, this is what I hate about not liking coffee.

I hear so many people talk about good coffee. It makes me jealous. I'm like, man, I wish I liked coffee, but I've tried it so many times. it's just not for me man not do caffeine at all no I do caffeine I just I've never gotten into the taste of coffee I just never like I used to when I was younger I never really cared for beer all that much when I was drinking I would always have like mixed drinks and then as years went on I learned to love beer like I'm a beer drinker now like I don't drink often like very rarely do I drink but when I do drink I like beer now like a good beer but I've tried coffee man so many different ways I've tried it with just black. I've tried it mixed with cream and sugar. I mixed it with everything. I just, I just don't like the contest. I don't have a good excuse for it. And I've tried, man, because everyone makes me jealous, like, dude, a good cup of coffee is the greatest thing ever. Everyone's always about coffee. I'm like, all right, I got to get into it. And I just, I've never found,

I've never found a flavor that made me not go, no, and that's it, this isn't for me. I feel it, man. It's an acquired taste. It's not for everyone, but it's for most people. I think it's like the most traded commodity in the world or some shit. I'm jealous, though, because I want to enjoy what these people are enjoying with coffee. And there's some mortal coffee I want to try it. But I know, like, I would give it a bad review because I don't like coffee. Okay, okay. Maybe just try, like, for like two weeks straight every day, just drink a cup.

You know, there's actually a lot of health benefits to it. They've shown a lot of crazy health benefits. I didn't even notice it until I own a coffee company. and suddenly I got to learn about coffee. Now, are you just a black coffee drink or do you put stuff in it? No, you know, I like a little bit of cream, but sometimes I like a little bit of cream. Sometimes I like it black. But anytime I'm trying to coffee for the first time, I'll always go black because I want to see what it tastes like.

But I just like to look, honestly, I don't even necessarily like the cream for the flavor or anything. I just like to cool it off. Sometimes I put like some ice in or something because I just don't like it. hot at the beginning. But I do not like the fucking, like, Starbucks with, you know, 10 different names and fucking Italian, French, German, and all this shit. And I'm just like, dude, just get a fucking coffee and go. That's a, that's not coffee anymore.

That's a milkshake. When you put, like, everything under the sun in it, it's no longer coffee. It's just a milkshake. Yeah, caffeinated milkshake, exactly. Just say you want a milkshake and be done with that. Don't talk about coffee. You're not drinking coffee. You're drinking a milkshake.

Yeah, but honestly, probably my favorite, though, is espresso black, which is, you know, it's just like a shot, you know, it's not a, you know, it's not a whole cup or anything. It doesn't necessarily taste as good, but the buzz is so much better. That's like the espresso is the super caffeinated. That's like the, that's like the five-hour energy of coffee. Yeah, well, I love five-hour energies, too. I'm not going to lie. Yeah, so, there you go, immortal coffee. All right.

We'll be back next week with more. We'll talk about the fallout from Holloway and Alan. Of course, next weekend we got Curtis Blades and your boy, Sergey Pavlovich. That's coming up next weekend. And we're getting closer and closer into the Immortal making his return. Of course, obviously we mentioned Matt will be taking off a little bit of time leading into his fight. But we'll get details on that down the road. But for now, thank you so much for tuning in.

We appreciate it. Make sure you check us out on all of your favorite podcast platforms. And of course, over on the best website in the world, mMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I'm Damon Martin. We'll see you guys next week for another edition of The Fighter versus the Rider. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then.