MMA Fighting - HOAM | Where Would Israel Adesanya Go Should He Lose UFC 287 Main Event To Alex Pereira?

Episode Date: March 30, 2023

Israel Adesanya has a lot to fight for when he faces his longtime nemesis Alex Pereira in his bid to regain the UFC middleweight title in the main event of UFC 287 next Saturday in Miami. A win could set up a massive third championship bout, or other interesting short-term avenues should he be successful, but where would Adesanya go with a second straight loss? On an all-new edition of Heck of a Morning, MMA Fighting's Mike Heck tries to find answers to that very interesting question ahead of the UFC's next pay-per-view extravaganza. Additionally, listener questions include Khabib Nurmagomedov's greatness, comparing Stipe Miocic getting the next heavyweight title fight with Jon Jones to Colby Covington getting a shot at Leon Edwards for the welterweight strap, the sport's most underappreciated fighters, judging in MMA, and much more. You can listen live to Heck of a Morning Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Fridays at 10 a.m. ET on the MMA Fighting Twitter Spaces. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We hear the show at a entirety shortly thereafter on the M.A. Fighting Podcasting Network. I am Mike Heck. I hope everyone's having a fantastic week, a very rare non-UFC week, but that does not mean that there are not combat sports events for all of us to partaken. You got Bellator 293 tomorrow. Saturday, we got Anthony Joshua, we got Gamebred Boxing 4, we got PFL1 taking off the 2023 season. So there's lots of face punching. There's a fight circus.

I forgot about fight circus as well. Gotta love fight circus. So there's lots of combat sports events for you all to partaken. And I don't really have a. a game plan for the show today. There's no real monologue or anything. All I'll say is the last 48 hours or so,

I've been working on something. And when I first kind of had the idea to start working on this, I was like, this is probably something that I can get done in like a day or two. And then as I talked to many, many people about this concept

and did a bunch of interviews for it, I realized that is not going to happen. There is a lot to this. So for those who are a fan of the long-form features and the sort of mini-doc podcast things that I put together, we got one coming. And it is going to be a dozy. And it is absolutely insane. I was talking to Shaheen Al-Shadi about it yesterday because I was a little overwhelmed by it all. And then we kind of laid out the way that it should go. And I was telling about some of the stories that I was being told, some of the nuances to it all.

And he was like, eyes open, blown away, all sorts of craziness. So that's what I've been working on the last couple days. That's something I'll continue to work on for the next few days, whether I'm on or off schedule. And hopefully we can get that released early next week, obviously before UFC 287 would be my goal. but this is a story folks it's probably like if you guys really thought about it I think you guys would figure out what I'm doing it on if you go back to some of the past podcasts and some of the

timely nature of some of those past podcasts but this is pretty wild so stay tuned for that but for the most part we're just going to talk to you all and see what is on your mind so let's kick things off shall we Tristed you're up you hear me yes Hey, Mike. I just wanted to say this and just watch your thoughts about this. I think I've probably brought it up before, but I remember when you had said about Dustin Fourier and you said, man, we don't appreciate what Dustin Porre has done or or Justin Gaetian or for that matter, Edson Barbosa.

And I just really think that really like hit me in a way where, you know, you know, You know what? I'm going to sit back and just enjoy these fighters and enjoy the moment and tie while they're still in the sport because, and especially also listening to damn they were good about Ben Henderson. And like, we talked, and you said a plenty of time, talking about rankings, fap, a pound, it's all silly. And just made me really sit back and just be like, you know what, I'm just going to enjoy these fighters. Maybe they'll be champion. Maybe they're not. But you know what? If they're exciting and they're putting their all into it,

you know what? I'm just going to sit back and just relax and enjoy those moments because, I mean, years go by quick. And, you know, you're not, you're not going to be fighting for long. They're not going to be fighting forever. And, you know, even when you were talking about with the, how, like, with the Boston teams, where you were like, you were upset for the week

or depressed for the week. And it's just like, you know what? Like, I really need to sit back and enjoy these moments with these fighters because, again, they're not going to be around for very long. And I just feel like fans need to be, in my opinion, I think fans need to really just enjoy these moments, enjoy the fighters. Maybe, you know, your favorite fighter, maybe they'll be champion, maybe or not. Like you said, like, Armist Rupi, you put it in the air,

like that judge was going to be champion. But we don't really know for sure. Maybe, maybe not. But you know what? I'm going to enjoy him when he's, fights, I'm going to be tuned in, and that's that. I just, that really just when you had said that, I'm going to really change my mindset of how to look at these fighters and not get frustrated all the time. So just your thoughts on that. Thanks, Mike. Yeah. I mean, that's something I try,

I try not to be negative unless, you know, if there's certain things of the news I need to be reacted on and they're really bad, then I will talk negative. But when it comes to, like, certain fighters, you know, I'm hard on some of them. I'm hard on Henry Sohudo probably more than than any other fighter, if we're being honest. But I don't dog Henry's resume and him as a actual competitor because his resume is phenomenal and his fights are great. And what he has done in the sport is there are very few that can match it. It's just the stuff that I have a hard time with as far as Henry goes is just the way he kind of conducts himself as a character. And you could say the same thing about Colby and others.

But when it comes to like, I don't know, it's just, it's, it's a weird thing. Like Dustin Poirier is just a dog, man. And like he's one of those, there are certain fighters that as you watch their careers progress, you think to yourself, we're going to look fondly upon this fighter much more when they're gone. And I think Daniel Cormier is like a prime example of that. He's a guy that was getting booed when he was fighting John Jones. Dude is getting booed out of the building. He was like one of the good guys. He was just getting booed out of the building. And he was always a guy that I thought, man, when he's gone, we're going to appreciate his career a lot more. I think Demetius Johnson is probably

the president of that fan club. He's going to be a guy that when he calls it a career and moves on to other things. He's going to be a guy that we look back upon and we're like, wow, this guy was unbelievable, but we didn't give him the credit that he deserved. And I think there's a lot of other fighters like that. I think Dustin Porre is starting to get a little bit of that shine. Gaichi is kind of amassed to that point where anytime Justin fights, you just know it's going to be incredible.

So he's graduated to that point. And he probably should have been looked at in that way before he came to the UFC. Chandler has kind of become that guy, but he wasn't always that guy. and then we did a damn they were good if you guys want a little retrospective on Benson Henderson man what an interesting career that guy had and I think a lot of people just kind of look at the tail end of his UFC run

and all the split decisions and him going up and down weight classes but people forget how important he was to the sport because we did like the Mount Rushmore's and stuff and you have to pick like four fights that were like the most pivotal for his career. And there's some obvious ones. Like obviously the first Donald Seroni fight is, it's one of the best fights of all time.

It won fight of the year. Benson Henderson won fight of the year, two years in a row for M.A. fighting 2009 and 2010. 2009 with Donald Seroni, that fight still holds up today from the WEC days. 2010 fight of the year was the Anthony Pettis fight, the final fight ever in WEC.

the showtime kick all that that fight is just ridiculous it's so good and people forget that between 2009 and 2013 when he fought pettis again and got kind of run over and lost the UFC title you can make a very strong case that during that four-year stretch benson Henderson was the best fighter in the world and people forget about that There's a lot of newer fans that only know the Bellator Benson. They weren't around for WEC Benson and the UFC champion run that Benson Henderson had. This is a guy who beat the hell out of Nate Diaz in his best title defense. To the point where Nate, like, how many times have you ever seen Nate Diaz actually go up to a fighter when it's over and like raise the fighter's hand and be like, yep, that dude whoop my ass? he did that that night against Benson Henderson,

who by the way, did that whole entire performance with a freaking toothpick in his mouth. That is Benson Henderson. What an interesting career. Benson is when we try to tie it all together at the very end, Benson to me is he is the professional fighter. He's the professional fighters, a professional in the cage, he's professional during fight week.

He's a professional out of it. He's the kind of guy that if you want to send anybody out to represent your sport at like a sports convention, please represent us in the best way. Benson Henderson would be my first phone call every single time. It's fighters like that, and that's why I love that Jed does this damn, they're a good show because it's not about, like sometimes we're going to do like the Mount Rushmore fighters, like the four or five best fighters ever. but that show is about the Benson Hendersons of the world who their career is just so fascinating and so interesting that people forget just how good they were and even Jed admitted during the show that

as he was going through and looking back at some of the tape he didn't even he forgot how good Benson Henderson was and that was a great deep dive for all of us so yeah I think that's a great attitude to have now are there certain fighters that are going to say stupid shit and rub you the wrong way, sure. But they're not all like that. They're not all like that.

And Dustin Porre is one of those guys that we're not going to have forever. He's talked about it. He's a family guy. He's won in a lot of ways. He's won the damn game and he never won an undisputed title, at least to this point. But his career is, it's going to be an all-time great. There's definitely going to be a damn they were good about Dustin Porier. There's definitely going to be a damn they were good about Justin Gaichie,

Demetrius Johnson, all these guys who were so good, but don't get the credit that they deserve for being as good as they were. And I'm not just talking about in the octagon and in the cage. We're talking about out of it, too. There are some bad seeds, but there are some great seeds too. And yeah, I think it's important to appreciate the athletes while we have them. Because the shelf life for an M.A. fighter, it's not a long one.

You never know what's going to happen. I mean, look at Tatiana Suarez. She was gone for almost four years. We didn't even know if she would ever come back. And now she's back. So we need to appreciate that. Appreciate the run while she's on it. Other fighters as well.

There's going to be a lot of fighters right now who are not going to be around for that long. So we got to enjoy them while we have them. So good start to the show, Tristan, nice and positive. Four quarter sports. Hello. Hey, Mike. So I wanted to ask you a question. So I was thinking about it last night.

And we had this topic before in the past where we would discuss, you know, why does Kobe going to get the shot for the World's Play Title, realistically, sometimes during the summer. But I have a question for you. Between these two fighters, who really is more deserving of a title shot between Kobe Covington and Sleepy Mielgege. One fighter was gone for over a year and counting, and another fighter has been gone for now more than two years in counting.

And if you look at the resumes, if you look back from 2019, Kobe has fought Robbie Lawler, has fought. Kamar Ustman twice fought Jorge Vazzo. Another fighter since 2019 has fought Daniel Gormier twice, and got knocked out by Francis Ingon. So my question is, who you think is the more deserving fighter from a compelling resume standpoint?

And what are your thoughts about Ilius Soporio versus Josh Emmett? That's so big more so ended up announcing that to be a fight happening, I think, in June. All right, thanks, Mike. Yeah, so we haven't completely confirmed that one yet, but it looks from conversations we had, Ah, man. Damn it.

Damn it, AK! Posting at our Slack channel. It's not like world-shattering news, but a fight I was looking forward to for tomorrow's Bellator card, Jalil Willis versus the long-returning Rustam Kabilov. No longer happening.

At Bellator 2.93, I was looking forward to that fight. That was a fascinating fight. Damn it. that stinks oh well we live and we uh we evolve and we deal with a card without it that's a damn good fight though i was actually talking to big john mccarthy the other day and uh we were talking about that fight in particular for for a few minutes and we're both like really fascinated by that one that sucks oh yeah we haven't fully confirmed uh to poria josh emett uh but i love that fight. I love that fight. I believe

that's an ot-no point potentially for me, or at least a piece of one. I have to go back and listen. I never remember my out-noticed. But I think that's the one that I chose. I could be wrong. But I like that fight. That's the fight to make. That's the fight to make. Your other question is a no-brainer. Colby is the correct answer. We talk like we've mentioned right now there's three guys in line for titles that are in the kind of the same boat. Colby's one of them. Henry Sehudo's another. And it's Stepe. Like, Stepe is, Stepe is probably the least, is clearly the least deserving of the three.

Because in a world where John Jones doesn't exist and John Jones doesn't make this call out and the UFC is not all in on the John Jones business. This fight, like, Steepa is not fighting for a heavyweight title. He's just not. John has the power. John has the pull. If John wants Stepe, they're going to do everything in their power to give John Jones Stepe. That's it. There are five or six heavyweights right now who deserve a title shot more than Stepe does. 100%. You can't make that same argument for Colby. You can't. Because the only, like the better option for the UFC right now, and it's all business, it's not from a merit perspective. It's Mazda.

if he docks out Gilbert Burns and he probably deserves it. Colby 50-44 Mazadol. So Bilal is like the most deserving, but from a compelling and a money-making potential, it's Colby and Mazadol and that's pretty much it. I mean, yeah, it's Steepay by a mile is the least deserving. But he's going to get it because either way, I think this is Stepe's last fight. I think everybody knows that. And I think if John's not even in play here, Stipey's probably never fighting again.

So it's a one-off. I think the UFC is confident that John will just run over Stipei and send them into retirement. But yeah, it's Colby deserves the title shot more than Steepa does. He does. It's not even, it's not a debate in my eyes. Now, some people might look at it differently, but I don't.

That's just how I feel. Neither really truly deserves it from a merit standpoint. point, but if you're giving me one over the other, it's, I mean, and New York, Rick is the one who sold me on this, more than anybody. It's steep. It's steep, but Colby, who deserves it more between those two guys? It's Colby, but it's, I don't know.

It's not a fun conversation to have, really, but, yeah, Colby is more deserving than Stepe. Henry Sehudo is more deserving than Stepe. because you can make it I think that might be the more interesting question is which one's more egregious Sehudo getting the shot or Colby getting it I understand Sehudo is a former champion

but just the way he left and the way that the Bannamweight Division looks right now with all these contenders and all these compelling matchups I mean you can make a case that Sehudo getting a shot is way more is more egregious than Colby but like I said, I respect everything

Zahudo's done. It's just the way that he left and then he just comes back and cuts the line after almost three years. I don't know. But again, none of this should surprise anybody. This is how the UFC does it and that's the world we live in.

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Hey, buddy, Ronnie, from Paradise. What's going on, Mike? Not much, man, How are you? I'm great.

Listen, this weekend, I'm a UFC snob. I'm going to get that out of the way right out of the bat. I'm going to my first PFL event. It's right across the street from us at The Virgin. And I went and caught Ray Longo's guy, Marab, at the Virgin at the Virgin at the Virgin Theater. I'm telling you, hands down, I go to every pay-per-view event in Vegas. I haven't missed one in like seven years.

Best crowd, best venue. You're literally. on top of the, of the, it's insane. It was such a good crowd. If they ever have another goddamn show on the apex, it's fucking criminal. Anyways, moving along. I mean, it was, look, I get it. In the beginning, it was pretty cool hearing the, you know, the punches and, you know,

and it was out of necessity, and I get it. But, come on. We're past that shit. Anyways, the, we're going, you know, the PFL this week, my good buddy Dewey, his boy, Bubba's going back in the tournament. So it's in the neighborhood. Got to check it out. I'm excited to see if the crowd is half as good as it was for that,

for that UFC fight, it would be more than worth it. So just saying that real fast. Also, you know, I know everybody's outraged about, just since the last comment, everybody's outraged about Colby getting the shot and Steepa and Sue do and get, but we get it. It's all business and shit. The Stepe thing, I couldn't agree more.

I feel like he would be on his way. After he didn't get, you know, an immediate, I don't think he's ever got an immediate rematch. Has he? He didn't get Sangano because he lost and he hasn't fought since. And he didn't get DC. Didn't Derek Lewis fight DC in between that? Yeah, but Steve's next fight was DC.

Because they needed a main event for MSG. So they just asked those two guys to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, fair, fair. My point, I mean, is he the greatest heavyweight of all time? You know, you can argue his resume is sick. I mean, I believe he's knocked out everybody he's fought except in Gano. He just ragged out him for five rounds in Boston, if I'm not mistaken.

But I could see a prime, Stepe, actually giving John Jones fucking hell with his combination of stand-up and wrestling and whatnot. But, I mean, if the same John Jones walks in, I mean, obviously, Steepa won't be afraid of him. But, I mean, how the hell is that fight going to go? I mean, Steve plays, what, 41, 42? I don't know. Love the guy, but I think you're right. It's on the way out either way. Win or lose, that's a wrap.

That's it, boys. Like I said, I'll check in on the PFL. It was, we'll see if it holds a candle. I've heard it's amazing comparatively to everything else going on besides USC, so we'll see. Everybody have a great day. Yeah. I don't think, I mean, I'll be curious to see what the crowd looks like for that. I don't think it'll be like a legit sellout.

The PFL just doesn't have that kind of buzz, but I actually think it's like a perfect venue to hold this event and hold these cards. I like the little residency they're doing for this first round. So yeah, and I agree with you that, you know, watching that fight night card with that crowd was just, there's just so much better. It was just so much better.

And the funny thing about it is, I mean, that wasn't the plan. The only reason it was at that building is because they were doing the stupid slap fighting thing at the apex. Otherwise, if the slap fighting thing didn't exist, that card would have been at the apex. But for those who are fans of the apex, don't you worry, they will be back. They get two shows of the apex in April. The Pavlovich Blades card, which, I mean, that's about as apexe as you can get. And then Surukian Moikano, that card with that main event will also be at the apex. But from there, hopefully, that's like the last apex show we get for a minute.

May 13th, oh, we got May 6th. We got 288. That's in New Jersey. May 13th, I've heard multiple locations for that. Jacksonville was in play for a while then Nashville sort of became the favorite and now Charlotte, North Carolina is now the front runner for May 13th. It's not 100% done yet

but that seems to be the plan right now is Charlotte North Carolina getting that Anthony Smith Johnny Walker card. May 20th, no location. June 3rd, no location. But hopefully they're traveling. And then it looks like UFC 289 will be, at least for right now, and by the way, it's not even, you know,

with Ariel reporting it as well, Calgary, Alberta, Canada, the favor for UFC 289 on June 10th. But again, conversations I had, not done. It's the front runner. Wouldn't be shocked if it happens. But it looks like that's the case. But hopefully after the 28th second and the 29th,

we're out of the damn apex for, for the foreseeable future. Keep the apex around for Ultimate Fighter. Keep it around for Contender Series. You got uses for it. You don't need you to host UFC cards there. Rob, hello. Hey, Mike, how you doing, my brother?

Hope all as well. How are you? You too, man. How are you? Not too bad, brother. Not too bad. I just wanted to just get your opinion on the conversation, the goat debate again,

because I know that I was watching the Arrow Hawani show and he had mentioned about the John Jones versus the Kabib thing. And kind of similar to what I mentioned in a previous question is like sometimes I feel like the MMA media doesn't ask the right questions because I always wonder all this conversation about weight bullies. How come nobody ever asked about Habib not moving up to welterweight? Because if you look at the stats, statistically speaking, most welter weights are around like 5, 9 to 6 foot. Habib is 510 and he walks around around 190 pounds. So they call this guy the goat, but two things out of context is he's a weight bully.

He cuts down to tons of weight. And early in his career, he had a lot of weight misses and nobody seems to really hone in on that. Another thing is that, you know, compared to John Jones, I mean, John Jones has 16 title defenses, whereas Habib, outside of McGregor, Gauchy, and Porre, a lot of his competition was fairly unknown. So I just wanted to know in your opinion, what's your stance on the whole Habib being the goal thing and why he didn't move up to Welterway when he probably should have? So, I mean, Habib took a – if you were a fan during the heyday of Habib and mostly the Habib, Tony Ferguson situation, Um,

Habib took a beating for the weight misses. I mean, for years, it was, it was almost the point where like, after, was it the, was it the,

was it 209? Fancy 209? They were going to do, um, Habib versus Tony Ferguson. Didn't happen. Uh, Habib had like a bad weight miss.

And that's where like the term of Sue thing came to be. So, Oh, yeah. I mean, Habib took a beating for a long time with the weight misses. Seemed to figure it out and whatever. I never considered, like, I don't, I never considered Habib the goat. Now, if you want to say he's the best lightweight of all time,

I'm okay with that. That was one of the conversations we had with the, with the Benson Henderson, damn they were good episode is like, you know, is Benson Henderson a top five? lightweight of all time. And as we narrowed it down, one and two is a lock. It's either Habib 1 or BJ Pen 1. If you want to do Habib 1, BJ Pen 2 or BJ Pen 2, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. Those two are locked. That's one and two. And then the others you could fill out

and it's, I mean, you could you could scramble them. And I actually think Benson Henderson probably squeaks into the number five spot, mostly because of that run between 2009 and 2013. Habib just, his resume was great, didn't have a ton of title defenses, didn't have a ton of finishes. He dominated everybody he fought.

He only lost like two rounds in his entire career. Like, it's just ridiculous. Just ridiculous this resume that he put together. But I don't, I don't put him in the go conversation. Where I put him when he retired, as to me,

I thought he was, I thought he was the number one pound for pound fighter in the world. When he left, after he'd be Justin Geichi, he was the guy. He was the best fighter in the world. He was the best fighter in the world after he'd be Justin Gehche. But to say he was the greatest fighter of all time, no, he's not. He's not. Great resume. It's just not there. He doesn't have the title defenses, like you said. There's a lot of other things that sort of factor into it. I never really considered him a weight bully because, yeah, he missed weight, but he figured it out. And when it truly mattered down the stretch, he made the weight.

So we got past it and that's it. But he did struggle. He had some issues with it, but he figured it out and made the weight and won the belt and defended it and all that. But could you put him like top 10 of all time? I think there's a case to be made, but to put him as number one, just not, no. No, it's just not there. It's John or GSP.

Those are the guys. and if you put the PED stuff in play and that holds a lot of weight for you, then it's GSP. If it doesn't, then it's John. And Habib's resume is not as good as Anderson-Silves. And to me, it wasn't as good as Demetri's in the UFC. The title defenses matter. That stuff matters.

Wins matter, but title defenses, it's like you get an extra point or two when it comes to statistically putting that list together. And Habib just didn't have the title defenses. Now, had he stuck around and kept going, he probably would have gotten them. Because I just don't know if anybody of 55 beats Habib. He's not going to fight Makachev.

And I think Habib just beats everybody. So if he stuck around for another two years and defended the belt five or six more times, maybe we're having a different conversation. But he just doesn't have the title defenses. You can make a strong case. You should have fought for the belt a lot sooner than when he did, but he didn't.

And that's it. Jed calls Habib. He kind of compares him to Jordan. Not from the greatest, but it's just the way that, like Habib was on top. He was the dude. He was on pace to make this legendary run. We were all getting ready for it.

And then he just said, nope, I'm done. I'm walking away. I think that's a pretty good comparison. just for that sense. I'm not talking about the greatest in the history of the sport scenario, but just the timing of when he decided to call it a career and walk away. But, hey, did it his way, did it on his terms. Tremendous fighter, tremendous resume.

He's just not the best fighter of all time. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that. Tremendous run. But not the greatest of all time. Maybe the greatest lightweight of all time. the grace fighter of all time. Mikey, hello.

It's funny, you just mentioned how Habib probably should have fought for the title in the previous conversation we were having because there was a really good argument at the time, even though he wasn't a commodity in terms of like being a draw, but Habib could have fought Ben Henderson and I'm really still salty. It never happened. Plus, you know, the thing with the Abid conversation is that nobody really tries to have it on an even playing field. it's like you're either, it's like you're either hardcore, 100% Habib bias

or anything said to the contrary is considered hating. You know what I mean? It's like nobody ever tries to have a nuanced conversation about Habi's career, and that's what really is the most frustrating thing. You know, they conflate, a lot of fans always conflate. Well, he's 29 and 0. I'm like, were they all in the UFC? No.

Well, he went undefeated in the UFC. I'm like, yes, but where was the line of Demart? occasion where he stopped fighting prospects and started with fighting like the top of the division. You know what I mean? Because, you know, to go from, Abe Trujillo is not Dustin Boyer. You know what I mean? Daryl Horcher is not just in Gehiji. You know, now a lot of that too is also not his fault because, you know, life happens. I mean, remember when he was supposed to fight Cowboys Roney and then he pulled out for injury, you know of course the amount of times he was supposed to fight tony uh you know and the fact you know

there are so many factors that worked against habib i mean he could have actually had a genuine code conversation if he fought like the top of the division during his run but there was a lot of guys he didn't get to fight and that's not his fault so that's really what kind of hurts him from that perspective you know so but yeah and as far as the ben-hairs thing if ben-hers is actually my favorite lightweight of all time. I think he really genuinely does. It's funny you mentioned Gaiji and all those guys. It was like, oh, you're going to remember.

I think those guys, they're going to be safely remembered. You know, like, everyone's going to, you say Justin Gage, you can be like, yeah, that guy is pretty freaking good. Ben Henderson might be number one or top five in terms of those fighters where you're like, if you mentioned it to people, they'll be like, was you really that good? I'm like, no, you had to be there kind of guy. You know, it's like, yeah, he really was that freaking good. I mean, in his prime, I know he had an early submission loss in his career,

but in his prime, no one could tap him. Nobody could knock him out. Just he was the best lightweight that I've ever seen at that point. And people argue with it. It's just that, you know, they're like, oh, he barely beat Frankie Edgar. And I'm like, he's one of like the few people that have ever beaten prime Frankie Edgar more than once. So, and one last thing, it's mainly a weekend. What do you think you were in the final bookings?

you know, man, I'm starting to get sold a little bit on Cody losing, but I still think he's going to win. And what do you think will main event night one? So thanks, guys. Be kind of each other. I guess they're going to announce it on first take. I don't know if they've already done that yet or not, but I would guess they're going to go,

I would guess they're going to go Charlotte and Rio Ripley. That's what I think. But I would totally understand if they went with the Uso's and Sammy and K.O. I mean, that's the best story. That whole storyline is, it might be the best storyline in the history of professional wrestling. Like, it's so good.

It's the only thing that's keeping me, like, positively invested as a pro wrestling fan right now is that storyline. It's just so good. Everything about it has been incredible. I mean, just compelling stuff. And I heard Paul Heyman talk about this. And I actually think it's true. All those guys could be nominated for Emmys right now with how good they have been.

Roman, Cody, Sammy, K.O., even the freaking Uso's. Everything about it has been just compelling shit. And there has not been one negative or bad moment in any of it. It's just been unbelievable. it's just been unbelievable. And that just shows you. You don't need to book something right away and throw MJF and Brian Danielson

in a 60-minute Ironman match for the first friggin' match they ever have together. We can build things up over periods of time and tell stories. It's beautiful. I think Cody will win. I think it'll be freaking anarchy if he doesn't. But I get why he might not

because of, you know, trying to get roam into a thousand days as champion. Maybe they, I don't know. I just think you have to give to Cody at this point. Like, the story's all there. Yeah, I don't know if you could do it. I don't know if you could bamboozle the fans. Like, you'd send them home so angry. I don't know if you could do that.

I don't know if you could do that. So I think Cody will win. I think Sammy and K.O. will win. Maybe they won't. I don't know. I'm interested in Maney. I'll tell you that right now. I'm totally interested in it.

I'm totally interested in it. And then kind of going back to the Benson-Henderson thing, yes. Benson might be the most criminally underrated fighter in the history of the sport. Because he just, people just don't know. There's just so many newer fans that just did not see that, like, the Benson-Henderson is champion. And you're right about no one could put this guy away. Go, I'm telling you, your homework assignment is to go.

watch the first Benson-Henerson Donald Seroni fight. That's your homework assignment. Go watch that fight. W.C. 48. April 2010. Nope. I'm sorry. That was the rematch where Benson just absolutely ran him over.

WC-43. October 2009. That's what it is. October 2009, go watch that fight. M.A. Fighting's fight of the year. And how Benson was able to survive all those submission attempts, I will never be able to tell you.

And as Shaheen said in the episode, that's how that fight is how Benson Henderson got the nickname Bendo. A nickname Benson Henderson hated. Everybody started calling him Bendo from there, and that is why. Because Donald Serroney had him in like arm bars and all sorts of different submissions, and Benson was somehow able to survive all of them.

That guy could not be put away. He got, and a lot of people, don't realize, too, from conversations I've had, the showtime kick that Anthony Pettis landed on Benson Henderson, it didn't knock him out. That fight went to the final horn. That just shows you how tough that guy was.

But people look at the split decisions and stuff, and, like, I didn't think there's any controversy in the first Frankie fight. I, for a long time, I thought Frankie won the second fight, but I've gone back and rewatched it, and I thought Frankie won the second fight, too. the Melendez fight was a little closer

and then Pettis kind of trucked him in their second fight of UFC 164 that he beats Josh Thompson, submits Rustum Kabulov, which is so ridiculous. Like Benson's career is just ridiculous. As far as Habib goes, John Jones has more title wins

than Habib has UFC wins. Put that into perspective. John Jones has 15 title wins. Habib is 13 UFC wins. George St. Pierre has 13 title wins. Habibis 13 UFC wins. DJ 12 title wins. And those are in a row, mind you.

It's just like the title defenses and the title wins just, and they have to matter more. They just have to. And that's why to me, like my rush war is John Jones, GSP, DJ, Anderson Silva. That's my rush war. Those are the four. title wins and title defenses they have to matter in the go conversation they have to so either way you slice it john and gsp are both ahead of habib because gsp is as many title

wins as hubib as ufc wins and john jones says more that's crazy that's insane it's absolutely nuts habib's great and this is not it's not i don't say this bad about Habib, like, Habib, for years, everyone thought, like, as soon as Habib fights for the title, he's going to win it. And it took him forever to get a title shot, took him forever to get over. And the Michael Johnson fight at UFC 205, he got fucked over by the UFC. He got screwed. They were going to try to give him a title fight. But they only used Habib as like a negotiation tactic to get Connor on board to fight Eddie Alvarez and to get those that fight signed.

So Habib ended up fighting Michael Johnson instead. And that was the moment that he officially got over. Cut the promo on the chicken, Connor McGregor, all that he's talking to Dana White while he's beating the hell out of Michael Johnson. It was crazy. Then he goes and dominates Edson Barbosa and then he dominates Ally Quinta in that crazy fight week

at UFC 223. And then he just melts everybody. Runs over Connor, runs over Dustin, runs over Ghaji, and then he just leaves. On top, Habib will probably go down as one of the biggest what-ifs in the history of the sport. Where it's like, imagine if he stuck around for four or five more years. Because Habib was, I mean, he was the dude.

When he left, he was the dude. But how long was that going to last? I don't know. It's a great what-if. And Habib is a, I mean, he left as the best fighter on the planet. He just is. So, yeah. Yeah, go ahead, man.

I just want to add on to this combo that we're having regarding Kabibasa Go. I think one of the things people always criticize Kibu for is his lack of high elite competition, which I kind of disagree because he did fight some of the best fighters in his division during his run, even before he was a champion. And to add on the fact he, there was three times prior to 2018, he was actually scheduled to get the championships up. Like, I reckon if he had got the, he had got the championship opportunity in 2014 for Anthony Peders. And probably after, you know, some of the following contenders,

I reckon his legacy would be much more different. And possibly he would have retired more earlier and possibly maybe Fort Tyrone would be for the belt around 2016-17. Who knows? We'll never know. But it's always going to be interesting because he was one of those fighters who was truly on the whole other level. and he showed how you can win fights without taking so much of damage and using the actual IQ, similar to John Jones. That's all I have to say, but thanks.

Yeah, what we learned kind of about, at least to me, one of the strangest things I learned about Habib and how I felt about Habib throughout the end of this all was, had he fought Tony Ferguson, I think he would have killed Tony Ferguson. I don't think that fight would have even been competitive. Like, it was a fight that needed to be made at the time, but I honest, I think he'll be but a rantoni over at any point when they fought each other, honestly.

Yeah, and you look at the resumes, it's not the who's who, but again, that's not all his fault. He's supposed to fight Gil and Melendez. He fights RDA, and someone mentioned earlier, like, didn't Benson get finished by RDA? Yeah, he did. But that was after that, like, incredible run that nobody talks about, 2009, 2013.

because Pettis finished him too during that run. That was like the end of it. And then he got beat... And RDA was freaking on one at that time. No one was beating RDA at that point. He was just on another level. But yeah, it was RDA. Then he fought Daryl Hortcher,

which was a short-notice fight because Tony Ferguson had to pull out. And then he fought Johnson. Then he fought Barbosa, Iaquinta, and then the last three fights, yeah. So the resume is as strong as some of these other guys, but I mean, I remember hearing about, like, I was like just, I was like casually a fan when Habib got into the UFC like 2012-ish. And I remember people telling me about Habib in like 2012, 2013.

Like I'm telling you right now when this guy fight, this guy's going to fight for the belt and he's going to win it the first chance he gets. And it was just, he was plagued with injuries and all sorts of issues. But when he finally figured it all out, that's that's when he started going on that run. we're never going to know how great he is, how great he was going to be. Never going to know. But I still applaud him for going out on his own terms and doing it his way.

Brent, hello. Brent, there you go. Hey, you can hear me. You're at, Mike? Yep. Okay, cool. My question is hypothetically, if Adasania loses to Pereira,

what are his options and what do you think he does? A heck of a warning. I hope that Pereira goes to 205. I mean, I don't know. I don't know, man. It's a really interesting spot for him to be in if he loses this fight. And by the way, a little teaser for you. G.C. and I have always found a way to, like, sync up.

Like, we have the same brain when it comes to, like, the watch parties and cold opens and stuff like that. Wait till you see the cold open for the 287 watch party. it is fucking electric. It's incredible. G.C. sent me over the video with the music I chose. It's so ridiculous. And I cannot wait to voice this over tomorrow.

It is going to be... Ron Perlman, eat your heart out. Like, the UFC does great cold opens. This might be the greatest cold open in combat sports history. It's so good. It's so good. But, man, if he loses, I don't know.

Because I don't know if this is going to be the kind of guy that's like, I'll just fight all these contenders and work by way back up. I don't know. Like, I don't know, like, what fight would be compelling for him at 185 if he loses to Pereira?

Like, what's there? Does he try to fight like Hamzaa Chamae? Like, you just fight Paul Costa again and try to like, re-ignite that rivalry in some way? I mean, they're going back and forth on social media.

I don't know, man. I don't know. It's a great question. I can't, I'm very interested to hear, because I'm sure somebody's going to ask him that during media day or whatever, but yeah, it's a very compelling piece to this fight. And I think Izzy can win, like, I'm picking Izzy to win. Because if Izzy fights the way he needs to fight, he's going to win. He's going to win. But if he fights the same way he did it 281, he's going to get knocked out again.

And call it early stoppage or whatever. That was not going to get much better. and yeah, he's got to go after him. He cannot sit back and let Pereira hang around. He's got to go out there and try to run him over. If he does that, he's got a very good chance to win this fight. But I think we're going to see those two guys fight again, my friends.

YMVZ, hello. Hi, Mike, thanks for having me. I had two questions for you. What do you think of what's going to happen with, what do you think is going to happen with Justin Gae and Dustin? Do you think they're going to run that one back again? And if they do, I just want to say,

personally, I'm not really digging all these rematches. I think they're kind of redundant at this point. But I wanted to get your thoughts on that and also a potential matchup between Yon and Chito. Thank you. I mean, if they do Yon and Chito, I'm down for it. They could give Chito Umar. because Cheeto ain't can't say no to that or anything.

So, yeah, if they did Cheeto v. John, it's a great fight. I'd love to see it. It'd be a big, important fight for both guys, especially Pieter Yan, being on the losing streak that he's on right now. Oh, Bradda, I had you. I was going to go to you next. I think Porre Geichie could happen, but honestly, I don't think it's a fight that's going to get booked until after 288. If Darius beats Olivera, then yes, I think that's the fight that's going to be made. But if Darius loses to Olivera, I could see Porya getting a title shot.

I don't know. The result of that fight is going to have impact on what happens next for those two guys. But both guys seem to want it. I mean, I want to see it again. There's a fight of the year the first time. Probably a fight of the year the second time. So sign me the hell up for that. But I wouldn't say that's like locked in stone yet until we find out what happens with Daryush and Olivera.

Because I think if Oliver wins that fight, I don't think they're just going to throw him right in there with Islam again. But I could see a World War Poria gets that title shot if Darius doesn't win. But if Darius wins, he's getting a title shot, and then they'll do Gagey versus Porier and probably the winner of that gets a title fight next. As strange as that may sound to some of you. let's go to amelio hello hello sir hello mike

how you doing I hope you have me good great hope you have me a heck of a morning all right I'm going to keep it short but sweet who do you think is the bigger dick rider

AK for Tony Ferguson New York Rick for John Jones or Jet for who is it Islam slash Umar. Thanks, Mike. Wow. Emilio, come with the heat.

Golly. I'm going to change the phrasing a little bit. Hmm. That's a good question. I'm not going to go with the DR term. Who's the bigger fan of said fighter? Probably New York Rick with John Jones, just because it's, it's,

It's a day one thing. Although, AK having Tony Ferguson in his rankings at like number eight for way longer than you should have, causes me to think a little bit. And Jed's been all in on Islam for a while. But I'll go to New York,irk. Longevity. Longer relationship.

Longer term. Yeah, I'll go with that as the bigger fan of said fighter and not the other term that you used. All right. Last call. Giving it a 10 count. So I got a million things to do. We do a BTL today, 1230 Eastern.

It's just going to be Jed and I shooting the shit. No competition. Talk about what happened last week. No UFC this week. All the stuff going on this weekend. We'll talk about Texas being Texas. All sorts of fun stuff. All right.

Terence gets the closing word. Terrence. Yo. So, quick question. So you kind of didn't want to talk about it as much. Yesterday, somebody asked you the question in regards to media and, like, not follow-up questions. So it was yesterday, before yesterday. When will we have, like, someone, like, a aerial?

Like, I know, like, for example, I've seen a clip of him asking Dana White a question. I think it was Henry Sehudo. Oh, yeah, it was a Henry Sehudo thing where he's like, will the fly weights be dead after this weekend if Henry loses or what have you and Dana didn't want to answer the question he kept asking follow-up questions and made Dana uncomfortable and he finally was like I'm not answering the question like that is the answer we don't have anybody like that anymore

will we see that again it's the reasons to why we don't see anything like that it's because we don't have like you guys don't have like enough leverage with your companies to where like they're like oh so-and-so can't come here anymore because he's asking these difficult questions. Like, I've asked this before to someone else, and they're like, oh, we're not, that's not a journalist job, but then you have, like, people, like, the oldest example I can think of is Barbara Walters who will ask these follow-up questions. Like, first take and, like, all these other people who will ask these follow-up questions

that I feel that should be asked, and it's just, like, Dana White's getting privileged because he owns the company. And I don't know if there's some kind of like organization or if you guys had like something that would protect you guys from being barred if you ask those difficult questions. Because then I think Dana will more or less not get away with as much as he does. That's all I got. Thank you.

I mean, I don't know. I think people, I think people have tried to challenge Dana. But I mean, Dana has, Dana has a go-to. he when Dana has when Dana doesn't have like the answer that is probably the right answer he will try to flip it back on the reporter and he's done it a lot he did it this past Saturday I remember when Brett Okamoto was asking Dana about New Year's Eve and some of the conversations that happened with that Dana just fired back questions at Brett and it turns into like something totally different so I mean I don't know man it's it's tough like a lot of the press conference stuff like if you watch that clip from with ariel he's sitting in the chair with the microphone in his hand and he could he's got the power of the mic uh it's not like that anymore it's not like that anymore if you go to those press conferences

uh you get a stand in line you get like two questions and then they scoot your ass on out of there um and because there's a line of people waiting to get up to that microphone and try to ask questions so um and that's probably another reason why dana for the most part doesn't do those pressers. Sometimes, I mean, he did the John Jones one, but for the most part, you see John Anick up there. Because John ain't going to get those questions. And if John got him, you would answer them in a very professional manner and then they would move on.

So, I don't know. I don't think anyone's like, like, afraid. Like, again, to me, like, it doesn't matter. Like, if I went to a press conference and I asked Dana a bunch of questions like, and they're like, oh, you can't come anymore. Then fuck me, right? Who cares? and I could care less if that happened.

Because I very rarely cover events now anyways. I go and do the watch parties and so forth and so on. Like, I've said this a million times. If MMA fighting set me out to fight weeks, like flew me out Tuesday, and I just did Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and then took like a red eye Friday into New York to do the watch party Saturday, I would do that in a heartbeat. I would do that in five seconds.

I would rather do that than do the whole fight. week thing and just sit in the back on Saturday. I like asking questions. I like talking to the fighters, but like the best part of fight week to me is not just, ooh, I get to go to the fights on Saturday. It's like doing the extra stuff, doing the interviews that nobody else is getting and having conversations that nobody else is doing and doing different things that nobody else is doing. Like, that's the type of shit that I like to do.

But yeah, I don't, I don't know. Dana's very good at like being shifty when it comes to that stuff. some people can take it and keep carrying on and some people can. Now, a lot of times you realize that no matter what you say to Dana and how many times you ask it, he's not going to say shit. He's just not going to say anything. He's going to try to flip it back and then he's just going to be like, next question and move on.

And then you just kind of kind of have to let it go. Like, what are you going to do? Just like steal the mic from the PR person and keep trying to ask some questions. It's tough. It's very difficult to get a one-on-one with Dana. getting a one-on-one with Dana, like you can ask those questions. It's you and him. You got the mic in your hand.

You're not waiting for anybody else. No one's trying to interrupt you. It's different. But he doesn't do a ton of one-on-ones. He does the one-on-ones of people that aren't going to ask those questions. You'll see next week. You'll see who he does interviews with next week. And you'll completely see how this all plays out.

He ain't doing it with me. He's not doing one with Ariel. He'll do one with. The bar still people. we're just going to put them over and that's that. The out kicks, they're just going to put them over, not going to challenge him. That's what Dana does. And Dana is smart because there's still going to be articles written about those interviews

because is Dana talking to somebody? But no, no, those people are going to challenge them. That's it. I don't think anybody's, like, afraid of it. just when you deal with that and you sit there and you watch it, you're almost just like, oh, let's just move on.

This is a waste of my time. But without getting like an actual one-on-one with him, it's really tough. It's really tough. Because there's people, multiple microphones, they're taking the mic away. One more question,

one more question, all that. Well, Vikings here, I promised him that if he came back, I would get him to the front. But this has to be the final question. I have to go.

Viking, hello. How are you? Good. What's out? Life's good. I just want to, I just wanted to ask about the judging. I mean, with the Japanese shoulders, what should UFC needs to, what UFC should do in terms of bad judging? I mean, the sports is, it's still evolving. So in terms of judging, what should be done by UFC's part? I know that the Athletic Commission hires judges, but still, is there anything that UFC could do about the judging?

Thanks a lot. no there's nothing they can do because you said it commissions they bring on whoever they want they assign whoever they want and you just kind of have to deal with it um i'm digging into this fury fc thing uh talk to a lot of people about it so i kind of just gave away what my my next project's going to be um the whole referee blunder from the past Friday, but I've talked to like everybody involved, people who were there, people who watched it, people who have insight to officiating, talk to both fighters, talk to the promoter. I mean, it's, I have like multiple hours of audio on all, with all of these individuals.

And one of the things that was brought up to me from the promoter of Fury FC is that when the TDRR released their statement to us about everything that happened. I'll pull it up real quick because this was refuted. I just want to make sure I have a correct. So I'm not like misquoting myself. Let's see. So I sent this out Saturday morning. This is response.

TDRR is aware of concerns about the officiating one of last night's fights. All TDRLR officials receive ongoing training. We monitor each fight for consistency and officiating. fight officials for each competition are always selected in conjunction with promoters. That last sentence right there, fight officials for each competition are always selected in conjunction with promoters. The Fury FC president told me that is not true. There's no truth to that at all. They are given the way in Sappen, and they are giving a sheet of paper saying,

these are the refs for these fights this is what you got to pay them that's it they have no insight they have no decision-making power whatsoever in choosing who refs or who judges and all of that in fact there are certain times and this is not just with texas this is with other commissions as well where other commissions will be like come on we want to put our guy in here we want to put our guy in here in fact i was told frank colazo who was the referee for that fucking atrocity on Friday was supposed to be the judge in the main events. And then we got a different Texas judge,

and that guy is the one who scored that fucking fight from Marlon Vera. So these are Texas officials. And from what I understand, that last sentence, the fight officials for each competition are always selecting in conjunction with promoters is bullshit. It's not true.

that's what the Fury FC promoter told me. And you'll hear that and see that for yourself when that comes out. But yeah, the UFC has no power at this at all. The only thing they can do is just they don't go to Texas anymore. But Texas is a pretty hot bed for MMA right now. It's tough. It's tough. I mean, Texas is a hot spot for the sport.

And they got major cities that all watch it and her fans. Dallas, Houston, even San Antonio. Will they probably avoid San Antonio for the foreseeable future? Yeah, I don't think they're going to be going back to San Antonio anytime soon. But we've seen shitty judges in Houston. They were better like when they came back. But yeah, I don't think they go back to San Antonio anytime soon. but I mean that's really all you can do is just not go back to those areas

but you're still going to be dealing with the commission if you go to Dallas and you go to Houston but you're not going to get the same names and the same faces that you got in San Antonio that like if you go back to Dallas you're not going to get those same people like Frank Colazo isn't refereeing fury cards for the most part outside of that San Antonio area so like Frank's probably not going to be in Dallas because that's also like a long way away. Texas is a massive state.

It's huge. It's like the size of a lot of countries. So yeah, I wish there's something we could do, but we can't. Nothing we can do. There's nothing the UFC can do. That's it. That's it. All right.

Ani, I apologize. You get first crack tomorrow. I gots to go. So thank you very much. BTL 1230. Don't miss it. We're also going to have a preview show later on today, a little weekend preview.

We don't have a UFC, but we do have Bellet, so we got PFL, we get the game bread boxing, we got Fight Circus, we get Anthony Joshua. You will have plenty of stuff to watch, but we are done. Thank you very much. You are the best. Back tomorrow, 10 a.m. Eastern, we'll do it again.

Have a heck of a morning, everybody.