MMA Fighting - Jon Anik On Israel Adesanya’s Potential Big Legacy Hit, Grasso vs. Shevchenko 2

Episode Date: September 15, 2023

Jon Anik sits down with Mike Heck to talk Sean Strickland massive win over Israel Adesanya, what the #UFC293 loss means for Adesanya's legacy, and more. The UFC play-by-play man also previews Noche UFC, headlined by a title rematch between Alexa Grasso and Valentina Shevchenko. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two, ghosts in the machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudulian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprise his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster. The Downloaded, it's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, What are you willing to lose to save the ones you love?

The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Support for this show comes from the Audible original, The Downloaded 2. Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster, The Downloaded.

It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded two, Ghosts in the Machine,

available now, only from Audible. The Vox Media Podcast Network. All right, everybody. People often ask why I love this sport, why I believe MMA is the greatest sport in the world, and one of the main reasons is when the cage door locks and the ref says go, no matter what things,

look like from a betting perspective or how we may think things look stylistically. Truly anything can happen. And ladies and gentlemen, we are currently living in a world where Sean Strickland is the middleweight champion of the world. He dominates Israel out of Sanya. And he freaking did the damn thing. And the man who called this incredible moment alongside Laura Sanko and the great Daniel Cormier, UFC, 23, the legend John Anick, in Las Vegas right now, joins us to react to

this craziness. He gave us a nice tight window and I appreciated so much. John, the world traveler. How are you, my man? Well, it's good to be with you. I actually think I am talking to you now, having gotten outside the other side of the jet lag. So that is very encouraging. We're here for Noche UFC. I can't wait to do the way in outside at Tochiba Plaza and scream Noce UFC from the top of my lungs. But Sean Strickland's on top of the world, right? What an absolute savage that man is. and you know, Americans continue to dominate mixed martial arts, right? No, I mean, obviously, historically, the United States of America has done really well in MMA. And I actually deleted a tweet that suggested, well, America's got another one, you know.

But yes, you're right. This sport oftentimes produces the unthinkable. And anything can and does happen in some of these other sports, but just not with the frequency we see with which it happens in our sport. And, you know, there were a lot of people asked. if there was betting value on Sean Strickland, and I didn't even necessarily know how to answer that question. Was he capable of this masterpiece? Yes. Can he execute like this again? I would think probably. But I do believe that the other side discounted him a little bit and didn't necessarily understand exactly what he was capable of and they paid the ultimate price.

It's been five days since this happened and you reacted right after the fact. And so did we. And it's just so crazy. Every time I go to M.A. fighting, it still says Sean Strickland is the middleweight champion. And this was just such an incredible moment for him and his team. And he did it when most believed he couldn't. And here's what's so interesting, John. This was a Sean Strickland fight. Yeah, he was a bit more patient and focused, but he didn't do anything different. He gave Israel out of Sanya the fight he wanted.

And he wanted in dominant fashion. So five days later, how have you digested all of this and what you witnessed and called Cage side on Saturday night in Sydney? Yeah, he didn't do anything differently, but he was particularly on. and certainly I think his coaches deserve a lot of credit, but he deserves the lion's share of the credit. As I said on the Antiquem Florian podcast, this is a win for sparring, right? For guys like Dominic Cruz and Sean Strickland that leaned so heavily into the sparring in an era in which many high-profile fighters, Max Holloway chief among them, doesn't do any sparring. Now, there are levels to the sparring, right?

And you can certainly argue that Dominic Cruz's sparring maybe is a lot harder on the body at times than what Sean Strickland is doing in the gym. but I'm just really happy that Sean was able to use everything at his disposal, whether it was his coaches, it was his mind, it was the Aussie crowd, just an incredible, incredible result. And now he's got to do it again, but I'm hoping that he can just relish in this moment. And, you know, the onus is going to be on Adasania or anybody else to make some adjustments and try to handle this exceedingly difficult style. The one thing I just want to interject on before we move any further is that this man's year began on. a losing streak. And he stepped up on short notice, not a streak maybe. He had lost at least one in a row, right? He entered 2023, having lost his last fight, he steps up on short notice in a main event against Nasorini Mavov, right? Fight he wasn't supposed to take. Then he fights that fight against Abouzmaegov and

then had the Duplessi circumstance and he fights for the belt. But the guy put his number four ranking on the line against Alex Pada when nobody else would fight that guy. So, man, the universe works in mysterious ways, but he felt worthy of this title shot. He did. deserved it after repeatedly stepping up. And man, if he didn't barge right through the damn door. I'm glad you said that because one of the things I took away from this is that this sport just moves so quickly. And one of the things that I noticed, and it's not just from the fight, but from the

fight week in general, just the perspective on Sean as a fighter has changed drastically. Because even heading into the cannoneer fight and Pereira and Hermanson and even the Aboos fight and the Imbaugh fight, the reaction to a Sean Strickland may not event in the apex is like, well, we know what we're going to get. We're going to get a Sean Stricklandy type of fight. And the collective action reaction from fans heading into Fight Week, it was just completely different. And then it just made the championship moment much bigger for him than I thought it would

actually be on paper. Like I didn't think he really cared about the belt. He kept saying, I don't really care about the belt. But you could see it in his eyes when he walked to the octagon. It was a different look. This wasn't a dude that's like, yeah, I'm going to go in there and fight. The look on his face, there were nerves. like actual nerves to the man and high quality athletes say all the time,

like if you're not nervous, it doesn't matter. But you could tell this really matter to him and he really rose to the occasion. So I guess in your opinion, how much has the perception changed in regards to Sean Strickland after this fight we compared to even the fight with Emovoff in January? It's a good question. And I think you hit on a lot of truths as far as the lead up to this fight. I mean, nerves in any field, if you channel them in the right way, I think can really be a powerful thing. Sometimes, you know, when I'm calling fights, there's something coursing through my veins.

And sometimes maybe I wish it was more nerves than adrenaline at this stage of my career. But did he not flip the switch on this whole goddamn thing, Michael? Right? You sure did. You broke it. I mean, I'm just totally fascinated. You had to look so far and wide for people who were picking Sean Strickland, May Rob, Gwales-Willi, of course, was on that train.

But there's so much that goes into it. And perhaps we weren't leaning enough into the challenges for Israel-Ata-Sania, as I have outlined repeatedly, whether on pay-per-view or in other forums, you know, 11 or 12 consecutive championship fights perpetually turning around quickly, did Sean Strickland in totality get their attention for his skills and what he brings to the table the way maybe Dracus Duplessi would have gotten their attention for some of his particularly violent tendencies, right? I don't know. Only Izzy and Eugene Berman know those questions, right?

But we heard a lot about this documentary stylebender that's debuting on September 20. And here I am not trying to take the focus away from Sean Strickland. I'm not trying to make excuses for Israel-Ata-Sania, right? Like we could spend 30 minutes giving Sean Strickland his flowers, right? But there are a lot of different reasons why he won this fight. Chief among them, his performance. But there is another side of this. And, you know, even though I don't want to see an immediate rematch,

I'm fascinated to see what a rebuilt out of Sonia could do fighting this dude twice. Absolutely. And the first four or so minutes of the first round, it's the feeling out process, right? Like, Izzy's fainting a lot, and Sean looks to be biting on all of them, but Sean's doing his thing. He's landing the kicks of the body.

He's throwing the jab. He's throwing the two. And Izzy's not doing a whole lot. He's kind of feeling out the process. And then Sean lands the big right hand and Izzy goes to the canvas. And then he just starts thumping away with the left hands. And the crowd was so loud, John.

We couldn't even hear you and Lauren D.C. reacting to it. And you guys did a tremendous job during that fight. Like, what's going through your mind when Strickland drops him at the end? end of the first run. It was insane. So I've said this with you before. If I don't use my diaphragm properly in those moments, oftentimes I can come to the brink of like passing out and seeing stars. So this was one of those

moments where I'm seeing complete stars feel like I'm going to throw up because I didn't breathe properly. And I thought I was about to call Sean Strickland knocking out Israel Adasania in round one to become the UFC middleweight champion of the world. So that's what I thought was happening. And obviously that did not happen. And thankfully, the referee did a good job in this particular instance. But dude, another just lesson like, man, be prepared to just call the sickest shit you've ever seen in round one because, oh, like, of all the different outcomes, the one thing that I probably didn't prepare for was Sean Strickland by TKO or knockout in round one. And I do think that part of Izzy's approach over the final 20 minutes was rooted in just how hard that right hand shook

him. Now there's so many different options with Sean as the champion because he sort of broke the division in a lot of respects because a lot of people thought that, well, is he's just going to showcase here in Sydney? And then he's going to go on maybe fight DDP. And now Hamzaa Shamaev's coming up. He's fighting Paula Costa. And now with Strickland, we could do the rematch. Not a lot of people seem super thrilled about that idea, but it could happen. I'm prepared to live in that world. There is DDP. We have Shamaif Costa coming up. Middleweight is so. So friggin fascinating right now. Like, can you remember this division being as interesting and as wide open as it is right now since maybe Chris Widman won the title? I mean, it's been this long where it's like, Izzy might not be, he's in the discussion, but there's a real world where he's not in the discussion right now, at least for the foreseeable future. Yeah, I mean, things even opened up a little bit for Robert Whitaker somehow coming off a loss to Drake's Duplex C.

Thankfully, our fan base, by and large, is rooted in a meritocracy. and the UFC is for the most part as well. You know, Dana White understands that Drake is Duplessi and Marab Duolish-Willi are the number one contenders right now. And let us just hope that one of those two guys gets the championship opportunity that they so deserve right now. But I think Dracus will probably be the guy. I mean, I don't have to tell you that in almost any walk of life, timing is everything

and the calendar is everything. And if Sean O'Malley can't go in December, then that changes that division. But I do believe Strickland, if he needs to be a promotional workhorse and turn this thing around on December 16th, the headline for the UFC, it'll be against the South African, Drake is Duplessi. Wildly fascinating fight, obviously, on October 21st between Kamsat Chimaiev and Palo Koso. And if Palo Kosovo Kamauga wins that fight, right? Certainly if Kamsat Shimaev wins that fight as a fight fan, I want to see Kamsat Chamaev in a championship

setting as much as I want to see my kids succeed in life, right? I have been dying to see Kamsat Chimaya fight for a world title. So with respect to Dracist Dup Kestu Kli, I think. I think he better hope Chimeyev doesn't just steamroll Palo Costa. But Palo Costa is the fucking man, Mike. So if he beats Hamzaa and hands him the O, or takes his O, I should say, then Palo Costa is going to be a part of this conversation as well. So this is a great problem to have.

Can the UFC let things marinate through October 21st? I think they probably can if they have a headliner for December 16th. But I don't make enough money to know those answers, brother. Yeah, me neither. And the fall from Izzy's side is when moments like this happened, John, we saw with Amanda Nunes, we saw it with Valentina Shepchenko, people are just, and it's not everybody, but there is a small contingency of fans who are just so quick to discount what this man has done in the past after a loss like this.

And it's one of my pet peeves in the sport, if I'm being honest. And there's a lot of talk about Eugene Barrowman. Oh, maybe he wasn't as great of a coach as he thought. Oh, Izzy was overrated. It drives me insane. And there is a lot of talk about having a bad night, maybe the mileage from over 100 fights added up, the frequency of his schedule.

It could have just been not being able to recover from the knockdown. Like there's a million different things here. And maybe Sean, just the end of the day was a bad matchup for him. But either way, it was the first time we've seen Izzy dominated like this for the entirety of a fight. Yeah, he lost to Behovich.

Yeah, he got knocked down by Pereira. But how wild was it, from your perspective, sitting Kejad to see Israel at Asana on this end of a fight like this for a change? Well, now he's lost two of three fights, right? So to those who have wanted to sort of denigrate his middleweight legacy, this gives them ammunition. It really does. Like this is a setback for his career and one that he can certainly come back from. But this is less a statement about Eugene Berman than it is about Israel Adasandia. Eugene Berman's track record is proven, even if he's not your favorite human being in the world, that man is a revelation and has done wonderful, wonderful things. And a part of the world that makes it really hard to realize that type of UFC championship success. And I'm not trying to give him all the credit. But if there was anything resembling an MMA Hall of Fame, that's one of the coaches that's a first ballot guy for me. Izzy's a first ballot guy, of course, as well.

And I think he is one of the greatest mid-of-way champions of all time. And I do believe that he can rebuild from this. But Mike, the nature of this singular results is such that this is a big legacy type setback, depending on how he comes out the other side. And I don't know that there or any other ways that you can spin this thing, right? That's why I don't think he deserves an immediate rematch, right? Like, he is not some long-reigning champion in this situation. He is a first time defending champion in this situation. And he deserves a lion's share of the credit for the UFC's pay-per-view success, really,

over the last half decade because he has always been the guy. But, and I am, I'm close with his family. I'm close with his sister, right? I gave his mom a hug, right? But I do think legacy-wise, you have to look at a Sean Strickman loss right now at this stage of his career as being the setback that it is. We haven't really heard anything from Israel outside of the quick one minute or so that he showed up to the press conference where he turned it over to Eugene. But as a curious guy, let's just say this. Let's just say the UFC brass calls you right now, John Anick, and they say, hey, Israel-A-Sanja wants to do something with you right now.

We're going to stream it live on YouTube, but you can only ask him one question. I'm going to hop on a stream with his job out of signing right now. Izzy will answer any question you ask him coming out of this fight. What would you ask him? What's the one question you'd ask him? To what extent has the championship schedule taken its toll? Is that a factor at all? Because there's a lot of us out there, call it inform speculation,

suggesting that this schedule is not sustainable, right? And there could be factors just in terms of the preparation that have nothing to do with the schedule and he could be so dismissive of my narrative and say, dude, we kickbox twice a week, man, and like you're just not on to something there. Perhaps that's not the most burning question from the fan base for me. That is the most burning question. You know, for Nunes and Chivchenko, for Izzy, did it eventually take its toll? He has been super active. He's been a company guy. Like you said, he always answers the call. He always wants the call. He wants the ball. And you've spoken to him a lot more than most have over the years. Do you feel like after this loss,

if you had to guess that he's going to be just itching to get right back in there in typical isy time-framy fashion. Or do you think, you know what? Maybe he will take some time off. Maybe he comes back international fight week 2024. Maybe even after that. Maybe he's chasing DDP for the title. We still get that fight, but it's just an opposite ends of how we got there.

Like, what's your gut telling you on that end? Do you think Izzy comes back like immediately or do you think he takes some time here? So unlike Izzy in this particular instance, Al Jermaine Sterling is that long. reigning champion in terms of that immediate rematch. But I do think there are parallels to be drawn in these two situations because I do think it stands to reason that Izzy and Aljo both will fight for the belt in their next fight, but the belt will be contested before they realize that opportunity. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Izzy lay back for a little bit, focus on the documentary and allow that belt to be contested one time. Allow Costa and Chimaev, right? Let's make sure all these

fights happen, right? And ideally, in a perfect world for Izzy, I think you have this middleweight championship beyond the line before February, before Groundhog Day. Ideally, right? January, maybe you do this thing, if not December. So I think for Izzy, that would make a lot of sense. And even, yes, to your point, if he were to return in UFC 300, which I think maybe is tracking for April in a championship setting or not, you know, I think that makes a lot of sense. But I think more often than not when you lean into that time off, even if it's not developmental time, it can bear fruit. And, you know, Aljo, you know, there were a lot of factors in the O'Malley win, but Aljo's schedule was a big factor. Yeah. Eric Nixick and the team did an incredible

job getting Sean ready. Not only that, just adjusting to things on the fly. Like, they had a game plan to come on wrestle more. And Eric Nixick just changed things on the fly and said what he needed to say to Sean, whether some people agreed with what he said or not, who cares? We are lucky to be in these moments in this corners because they don't have to do that. But we get to see it. So I give Eric and his team so much credit, even the coaches behind the scenes who don't get enough shine. Eric does a great job putting them over.

But as I mentioned earlier, the trio of yourself and D.C. and Laura Sanko just knocked it out of the park. I thought you guys meshed extremely well. Laura getting a lot of praise and rightfully so. And D.C. did a great job. I know you strive for the perfect show and no, you haven't gotten there yet. And I'm sure you would admit that yourself. But with a new team like this in the pay-per-view commentator seats,

I thought things went extremely well. What say you, what was the feeling like between the three of you after working this pay-per-view event with such a crazy moment speaking with Lauren DC? Well, it means a lot to hear you say that because I'm in a crazy stretch personally right now with my schedule that oftentimes these shows, even in my hometown of Boston into Sydney, can all run together, dude. Like I'm sitting here doing fighter cards for Noche UFC. So I haven't watched a minute of it, right?

But I love Laura Sanko. I'm so happy she got the opportunity. I do believe that there wasn't a lot of grappling on this show at all, even though there were a few submission wins. And where I think she will really shine for people is her ability to talk jiu-jitsu and talk grappling. So the best is yet to come when it comes to Laura Sanko. But yeah, no, it felt great.

You know, I've worked with probably 15, 16 different combinations. And, you know, I always like to have an elite grappling analyst to my right. And more often than not on fight night, I have that. But, you know, she's comedic. She has good timing. She doesn't have an ego. I don't have enough high praise for Laura Sanko. And, you know, she and I have been publicly and privately supporting each other for so long.

And it was just very cool to see her in all her glory. And to be able to make a debut on a pay-per-view in Sydney in that atmosphere is pretty special. And hopefully she'll be looking back upon that fondly for years to come. Yeah. She did an incredible job. job. And like you said, no rest for the wicket. We get Nocha UFC this Saturday. You'll be on the call once again. You got two DCs this time. You got Corme and Cruz from it. If everybody serves it correctly. And we got the rematch, Alexa Grasso versus Valentina Schofchenko to six months removed from just another

incredible game-changing moment from Alexa Grasso submitting Valentina Shepchenko. Very interesting rematch here. Valentina Schofchenko, it looks like she's ready to run through a brick wall and Alexa Grasso, just cool as a cucumber. This is such an interesting rematchel. is it not i can't quite remember two championship athletes being so confident and so focused so much so that i'm just so thankful that i'm contractually prevented from betting on this stuff but my goodness valentina shevchenko is is such a human being worth observing we've had so many fighter meetings with her over the years where she has really managed her energy and giving us nothing man like trying to get juice out of a an unright piece of a

of fruit, just absolutely nothing. And that's all by design. But this week, there was just a different tone to her. And I don't want to stay anger, but just a different edge to her. And Dominic Cruz really peel back the layers with her in terms of the question. He asked a question so perfectly. I can't really get too far into it, but that allowed her to talk just about the spinning technique and whether or not that is still going to be part of her arsenal, because obviously that was something that was flawed in terms of the execution on a number of levels in the first. fight, but it was a really fascinating sit down with her. And just to hear her talk at her media scrum about like, oh, I don't enjoy resting unless I have the belt. I mean, that's some scary shit,

Mike. On the other side of Lexa Grasso, I think my biggest takeaway was just 25 minutes is a good thing for her. She has a good style for 25 minutes. She's not so much worried about banking rounds. She was down 2-1, borderline, maybe 3-1, if we had gotten to a fifth round in that first fight, just thinks she's probably going to find a finish, you know, just thinks that over 25 minutes she can find a finish. And I don't have to tell you and your audience the extent to which she leveled up just going into that fight. I guess my one concern with Lexa is just that historically she hasn't been a finisher, right? A lot of her knockouts, most of her knockouts came on the regional scene. So I think maybe Valentina has more ways to finish. But yeah, as you can tell,

I have a lot to say about this main event and very excited that it's now only two days away. Yeah, she's got that Vichschenko pronouns, pal, has that mindset like she had against the Androj fight where people are doubting her and she's just got this giant chip on her shoulder where like media members are trying to ask her questions one on one and she's looking at them like she wants to punch him in the face like it's just a whole different vibe to her this weekend yeah i asked this question of one of my other shows and people have asked me and i've thought about this a lot because you can actually make a pretty strong case for both women here especially in today's ufc who do you think needs this one more because we have chivchenko and it's you know long-rating champion

queen of the division, chance to exercise the demons, getting one back, reclaiming the title, or for Alexa Grasso to prove that, hey, time for the new guard to push forward here. I'm the best flyweight in the world. I just beat Valentina twice right now. You can't call fluke or anything like that because I just beat her twice. Like, who do you think needs this one more, Valentina or Alexa? All right. So who needs it more?

Well, the most basic human need is to feel appreciated, right? But money is useful as well. I don't know what Valentina's bank account says. I know she's going to be in the UFC Hall of Fame. I know that her legacy is entrenched. I know that it would be absolutely devastating, not unlike it was for Kamaro Usman to lose successively to the same opponent

after this historically great title reign. But Alexa Grasso needs this win more. I mean, with all that is forecast for the UFCPI and Mexico City and everything ambitiously that we think can happen in Mexico, you know, I began my career as a combat sports journalist covering boxing. So I certainly have an acute understanding

of how much the Mexico. Mexican fan can mean to the UFC going forward. If Alexa Grasso, you know, Brandon Moreno is incredible, but he wasn't able to defend the title repeatedly. If Alexa Grasso can stack wins of Valentina Schofenko on top of one another, it would change her life probably even more than what she did in March. So I will say Alexa Grasso needs it more. Yeah.

And then the challenges that await her after that with Aaron Blanchfield and Manifioro and maybe Rosamian, she gets a win. things to get really interesting. And even the Tatiana Suarez fight, right? Tatiana Suarez beat Alexa Grasso. And Alexa Grasso leans into the camera yesterday. And she's like, yeah, so I lost that fight by rear naked choke. And basically insinuating, like, I'll probably never lose a fight by rear naked choke again, right?

Like, she's just on a totally different level with her grappling, offensively and defensively than she was when those two ladies met five years ago. Diego Lopez obviously deserves a lot of the credit. And I will say, too, Valentina Shepchenko had one of these FU. I'm going to Thailand for three months. type training camps, which is probably problematic at times for the opposition as well. Now, she did mix it up. She spent some time in Canada, some time in Las Vegas, some time in Vietnam.

But when you do the full camp at Tiger Muay Thai and Thailand, caution, flammable. Yes. Kevin Hall and Jack Dalmatel and Madeleine, a great fight at 170. We got the return of Raul Roches Jr. We got another up-and-comer, Daniel Zell-Huber. I'm really excited about. Big one of 125 in the prelims between Tracy Cortez and Jazz and Jazz DeVizzias. pretty solid lineup on ESPN plus, John.

Plus, we get it for free. We get it for free. It's a beautiful thing. What sticks out to you outside of the main event? Well, Tracy Cortez needs to be on the main card. I feel like that woman. And Jasmine Jazz, the busiest, too. But I feel like both of those ladies are ready to take their shots at the top five,

top 10 women in the world right now, especially Tracy Cortez. So, but again, she's in a pick-em setting this weekend. So I would love to see Tracy Cortez get elevated to that main card because people just really seem to care and she's just a really good fighter. Like she used to just be tough. Now she's world class. But yeah, Jack Delamattelaine and Kevin Holland is absolutely fascinating. I mean, you want a litmus test as to where Perth Jack Delamadelaide is right now, you know? Let's see how he handles this Kevin Holland test because for the first time, I feel like Kevin Holland looks like a future UFC welterweight champion. And my gosh, every time I break down that guy's career, right?

Vontagio Santos at 205 pounds in his short notice UFC debut went 25 hard with Derek Brons. in Marvin Vittori, right? Like in losses, right? And I'm talking about his losses, never mind all the chokes and kicks and ways he has to beat you. So Kevin Holland, criminally underappreciated career. And that line is waffled a little bit. You know, some guys, you know, depending on what time of the week you've checked it out, three name Jack has been the favorite.

He is the favorite now. Kevin Holland has been the favorite at times. Great co-main event. And to your point, I think a great car coming off a pay-per-view for the combat sports leader. It's great to be John Annick. It's also a great time to be a Sean in this sport. with Strickland O'Malley becoming UFC champions within a three-week stretch. But John, I know you're a busy man.

So thank you for the time. I know how busy you are. It means the world. Looking forward to hearing you back on the headsets this Saturday night. Noce, UFC. Enjoy the, enjoy the ceremonies outside, my man. Scream, Noce, UFC at the top of those lungs, my man. Thank you, buddy.

I'll be wearing black because you know I'm a sweater. So we'll see you guys in a couple days on ESPN Plus. Thank you all. To the Vox Media Podcast Network.