MMA Fighting - Kamaru Usman Isn't Conflicted Fighting a Former Teammate, Addresses Possible Rematches with Jorge Masvidal or Colby Covington

Episode Date: February 1, 2021

Kamaru Usman addresses his upcoming fight against Gilbert Burns and why he's not really conflicted at all while facing off with a former teammate. The reigning UFC welterweight champion also discusses his status among the greatest of all time as well as potential rematches against Jorge Masvidal and Colby Covington. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. How is everything, man? It's so good to catch up with you. I feel like we haven't chatted a while. Yeah, it's been a while, but, you know, I've kind of been staying off the grid, staying off the radar. Like a lot of people are, you know, sad and complaining about the pandemic. But for me, it was great.

You know, I'm a introvert anyways. I just want to be in my house. And this kind of gave me that opportunity to kind of be in my house. Yeah. I know I still text you after the fight though. You know, I always got to send you the post-fight text. I think that's like that's like tradition, right? Yeah, I appreciate that.

So, obviously, a fight is now just a couple weeks away. Before we get to Gilbert Burns and UFC 258, let me backtrack. I know obviously you had the big winner of Rasmidol, and I know you had planned on coming back before the end of the year, little injuries, things like that. So kind of give me an idea, like, what exactly happened? Obviously, you're healthy now, but like, kind of give me an idea, like coming out of that fight and getting healthy again.

Yeah, no. It's, um, before that fight, I had some, some, some major, major things going on to where I thought I was going to have to have major surgery that might have kept me out for over a year. And, you know, having to see certain doctors and, and get second and third opinions on certain things to do, it just kind of dragged on. And not to mention, you know, I was sick for a while after that fight and just time. just kind of started getting away. Before we knew it, it was like November. You know, and it's like, you know, we're not really in any, you know, position. I mean, of course, I'm always a week or two weeks away from,

I'm always six days away from a fight, you know, but it was just kind of one of those things that I did look like it was going to work out. And, you know, nothing was really set in stone anyways. So, you know, we thought that it probably best to fight this year. and hopefully potentially we get a crowd, but, you know, unfortunately we're still in this position. Yeah, I imagine it's scary, too, when you have something that could keep you out of action.

I mean, this is your career, this is your livelihood. Obviously, you're on your path to trying to become the greatest welterweight champion of all time. I'm sure that's scary when you get that kind of potential news. Like, hey, a year out, I mean, that's rough. It's really rough. Just thinking about it, what do you do for a year without, without this, without what you've set out to do,

which is training and becoming the best and staying that way. So it was a, you know, it was a trying time, but we got through it, and that's what we do is, you know, we get over it, we get back on the horse, and we get ready to perform. Absolutely. Now, you know, your last couple of fights, you know, and I know we've talked before,

I think pretty much all your fights in the UFC, but before your last couple of fights, You had a couple of opponents doing a lot of trash talking, you know, get a little personal. And one of the things that you showed through with both the Mazadol and the Colby Covington fight was how little it bothered you. You just, the mental warfare just does not work on you. You've never been a guy that play into that. Now, this fight is a lot different because you're fighting a friend in a way, you know, a teammate. A guy, I know, I mean, I talked to Gilbert a week ago, had nothing but good things to say about you.

Not a bad word, you know, not a bad word to say about you as a friend, as a teammate, is a guy he worked with. I think you said for eight years. Is it weird going from Colby and Mazadol and then literally the exact opposite end of the spectrum and a guy in Gilbert Burns that I know you respect and called a friend for a lot of years? No, it's not. It's not because in a sense they're all different,

but when it gets closer to the fight, they're all the same. These are all the same. These guys all sit there and look at what I've earned and what I've worked for. and say, you know, I want that. I want to eat his food. I want to take his plate. So at the end of the day, I have to be that same savage

to go in there and defend each and every time. So, yeah, it's a little different in the sense, but at the same time, I see no face. And when we get in there, they're all the same. When you, before the Mazvedal fight, you were obviously going to fight Gilbert back then. And at that point, I know you'd moved your training camp out to Denver. You've been working with Trevor Whitman,

Justin Gates, those guys out there. No giant secret what a great team they built. but I know you had been with Henry Hooft and those guys down in Florida through a lot of different stages from Black Zillions to, you know, Combat Club. Now, you know, Sanford, M.A. You've been with those guys for a long time. Can you kind of give me a sense of why? Why did you decide now, or I guess last year, was the time to change training camps, change coaches?

I know there was no bad blood because I talked to Gilbert and he said, Henry is actually going to sit out. He's not going to coach. He's not going to corner Gilbert for your fight because, obviously, he saw a tremendous amount of respect and love for you and he doesn't want to get in the middle of that. But why? Why was now the time to go out and work with those coaches and change teams? You know, all in all, it came to the point where at certain points in your career, you need certain things to be able to grow.

And it just, you know, over time, over time, I felt like I needed a little something. I needed a little something, you know, I needed a little more. And, you know, it's kind of tough to get that when you're on a team with 30 guys and your coaches are gone every other week, you know, midweek. It makes it tougher for you to get that personal attention that you need to get in order to stay on top. You know, I've done a good, a decent enough job to get to this point. But in order to stay there, which is the hardest part, you need certain things and you need certain attention. And, you know, towards the end there, I just didn't feel like I was 100% getting that. And there was some other things, you know, underlying things, too, that happened that, you know,

I don't care to even go into right now that, you know, kind of helped push that decision a lot sooner and a lot further quicker. But, you know, it was something that I kind of wanted for a long time. And, you know, I narrowed it down for, you know, almost that last year of the, you know, some of the coaches that I really liked, I respected. I see where they work. And I felt that could be a good fit for me. I know it sounds like I could correct me

if I'm wrong here but it sounds a little bit more like the boxing mentality when a boxer a big boxer has a big fight coming up they build their camp around them

they build their camp around their preparation and getting them ready for a championship fight you saw it for years Floyd Mayweather canello all these guys they kind of build a camp

around them because that's the focus is a little bit of that where now it's just kind of like the focus is more on you your preparation getting ready for your title

fight because obviously his champion I mean listen this is every fight's the biggest fight of your career. Well, in a sense it is, you know, because in a sense, you need that special attention to where the coach can sit with you and say, hey, this is what's working, this is what's

not working, this is what we need to get better at and what we, you know, where we should improve and where we should kind of slow down. And it's kind of tough to do that when you're on a full team where the coach has to worry about 30, 40, 40 other guys on top of the business. It's the top of the certain things that they have to worry about. So that makes it tough. But don't get it wrong. I make no mistake in understanding how important it is to have 30 or 40 guys that you could, excuse me,

that you could train with each and every day. So it's not necessarily that I just wanted it to be built around me. Like I said, there's certain other circumstances that played a factor in, you know, the ultimate decision. But, you know, that part. of it. The attention part was definitely a key component. And it seems

like I don't think there's any giant secret what Trevor Whitman does. The guy's a genius. I've known Trevor for a lot of years. Seems like you guys have built a really good chemistry really quickly. Yeah, absolutely. Trevor is a very easygoing guy and I like that. I'm the type of guy

who I'm going to come to work. And if it's if you have a coach that's about his business and that's, you know, is skillful and thinks about everything, then it makes for an easy transition when you have the people who definitely, the people who's definitely willing to work

and put in and exercise those things that you're giving them the work on. So, you know, it was a great fit. I had met Trevor a little bit before, I've been around him, and I just kind of knew the kind of person that he was. And I felt that it was a good match. Yeah, absolutely.

With that being said, you know, going into this fight, you come from wrestling, So you know the mentality of going into a season knowing you're probably going to be wrestling a couple of the same guys multiple times. You're going to see them in the season. And you're going to see them in the divisional tournament. Then you're going to see them at the NCAAs. You know, you know, the mentality.

But obviously, you know, typically you're not wrestling your teammates in those kind of tournaments. You know Gilbert Burns very well. He knows you very well. You trained together. You sparred together. You learned together. You grew up together in a lot of ways. I mean, you became, obviously, when you started together, you weren't.

the champion. You worked your way there. Is it weird? Is it better? Is it worse to fight a guy that you do know so well and knows you so well? It's different. I would say it's definitely different because you felt them. And you know, you knew the areas where you kind of had the upper hand and they know that as well. And you know the areas where they're strong. So it makes it a little different. But at the end of the day with me, you know, I see when it comes down to it, I see no face. This wasn't something that I said.

I didn't pick him out of a lineup and say, yeah, that's the guy that I'm going to take out. You know, I'm sitting at the king of the, I'm at the king of the hill. You know, I'm sitting up at the top. And these, he's the one who picked the fight. You know, these are the guys that say, no, we want what he has. So when you want what I have, I have to defend that, you know. And so I have to go in there and show them why I'm sitting at the top. With that being said, I don't ever get too deep into game planning or anything.

I mean, we know what you do well. We know what Gilbert does very well. But when you look at this fight from that strategic game point, that strategic point of view, do you see knowing him the way you do? Do you see weaknesses? Have you found those holes? Have you kind of dissected that and realize where your confidence lies in this fight? Don't give away the game plan, obviously.

But do you feel those kind of things? Do you see those kind of things in your training? Yeah, a lot of my confidence just relies on who I am, in my mind and how I, my fight IQ and how I process things. And what I've been doing for years, you know, this didn't just happen for, you know, last week or last month or last year or two years ago. This has been going on for a long time, which is why I've been as successful as I've been. This is not a journey I just started. I've been doing the right things for a long time. which is why that confidence is there.

So whenever I get into a situation, it's been built in. You know, I've been doing it for a long, long time. So I know that I can handle whatever is throwing at me. You, when you fought, now, this is a loaded question. I fully admit, I'm asking you a load of question right now by asking this question. But when you fought Colby Covington, you said that, you know, put everything else aside, put all the trash dog aside. You know how good Colby Covington is as an athlete.

And you treat him like that and you approach to fight like that. And you fought like that. and then you went out and knocked him out in the fifth round. George Madsendal was a weirder win because obviously you literally had five days to get ready for the guy, but you still dominated, you know, that fight almost every minute of every round of that fight and ended up winning a pretty lopsided decision. When you look at Gilbert Burns, and I know every opponent is your toughest, but do you believe Gilbert is that toughest guy when you look at his skill set,

when you look at the way you match up with him, do you believe Gilbert is your toughest test to date? Absolutely. I think he's the next biggest, baddest dude out there for me to fight. You know, when you're looking and you're breaking all these guys down, he's the next biggest and best guy. That's why he's the guy that I'm fighting. Because if he wasn't, then he wouldn't have stepped out of the, he wouldn't have separated himself from the pack. And so, yes, I think he is the big, the next tough, toughest dude out there in order for me to,

in order for me to fight somebody, if I had to pick, you know, because he's done the, he's done the right things that I put him in this position. and I have to respect that. So, you know, this is what he wanted, and this is what he's going to get February 13th. Gilbert has said he expects a war because, again, he says, you guys know each other so well, he knows it's not going to be easy. He knows fighting you is not going to be like,

I'm going to go out there, you know, and again, credit to him. He did dominate Ty and Woodley. He did go out there and finish Damien Ma. He's done those things, but he knows. He's like, I know how good Camaro is. I'm not expecting to go out there and make it. This is not going to be an easy fight.

but you've rarely lost rounds in your career, much less had close fights. When you look at Gilbert and not in a disrespectful way, do you believe this could be a close fight or do you believe you will go out there and have a classic performance where you dominate this guy from bell to bell? That's up to him, honestly.

That's up to my opponent. If they've done their homework and they come prepared, then they can bring out a certain type of fight in me. And if you compare it on my last fight, you know, someone like Kobe Coving, He did his homework. He came prepared. And that's why he brought out that type of fighting me. And the same goes with Gilbert. If he's done his homework and Gilbert could kind of attest to it because he knows me a little bit more. If he's done his homework, he knows what I bring to the table. So he's done his homework.

But at the end of the day, you know, I've got a different gear that I don't bring to training with me that these guys have never seen. And when they are locked in the octagon with me, they realize really, really fast that this was a dream. When it's all sudden done, the fight's over, you get your hand raised, belts back around your waist. Will you be able to shake Gilbert's hand? And, you know, just be, you know, I'm not saying you guys are going to be best friends or anything, but like, this is more about competition, right? Like, there's nothing personal here. That depends on him. That depends on him on how they take it.

And so, I mean, I'm always, like I said, I see no face when we step in there. So it depends on how they take it. Or Haymas would all stepped up. You know, he took his loss and he, you know, he took it like a man and he shook hands. and went on about our business. That doesn't mean it can't happen again. But, you know, it all depends on how they take it. If he takes it well, then it is what it is.

But if it does it, also it is what it is. Yeah. Looking out of there with my hand raised. I remember talking to you after the Colby fight, and you told me at that point, you said, you know, in a dream world, we talked about the dream scenario would be, if you had, if you were able to, you know, kind of wish it into existence,

you wanted to fight George St. Pierre as a guy that would be able to kind of put you at the top of the mountain, the guy who has seen as the greatest Welsh weight of all time against the guy who is on his way to competing and becoming the greatest of all time. Now, unfortunately, I think we all kind of know at this point, unless something weird happens, George is not coming back.

I mean, it just doesn't seem like it's in the cards. 39 going on 40, probably not going to happen. So what in your mind do you believe you need to do? What is the dream now? What is the goal of becoming the greatest wealth weight of all time? What do you need to do in your mind to cement that legacy for yourself? Honestly, I don't even, I don't look at that. I don't think about that.

I don't think about stuff like that. I remember when Tyron Woodley was saying those things, you know, he's the greatest Walter Wade of all time and this and that. And of course, he's in that conversation, but that's not something that you bestow upon yourself. That's not something that I want to think about and say, I'm this, I'm that, I'm this. No, I go out there and I do my job. I take it one fight at a time.

And then when I'm done over time, people look at your body of work and say, wow, like look what he did. Look who he got through. Look at all the different. He fought everyone. And he made him look like this. And he fought him and did him this way. So I'm not the one who's going to go out there and put that label on myself. But if you actually look at my resume and when I'm set and done and you're like, wow, he 50, 43, this guy, 50, 44 this guy.

Didn't even move rounds. He knocked out this guy. He did this to that guy. man, that's the greatest of all time. You know, I'll let people make that, that conclusion. That's not something that I've best thought on myself, and that's not something I'm worried about right now. Right now I'm just worried about who the next guy is in front of me

and just going out there and making sure that I get that win. That can serve as a little bit of distraction, right? Like you see that in some guys, like it's so consumed by, I'm the greatest, I'm this, I'm that, and then, you know, they kind of lose sight of the next fungus guy, you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. And I felt that with that Tyron Woodley situation. I felt like he kind of towards the end there, he kind of put so much pressure on himself as that is, oh, I'm the greatest wealth of wait of all time.

I'm the greatest and this and that to where it was almost like, I'm like, I'm sitting here. I know something you don't know. I know that I'm better. And you're sitting here and your worry is the fact that you are the greatest welterweight of all time. I mean, you know, it is what it is, but you're going to take an L in this one. So, you know, it's not one of those things that I'm putting by the wayside or I'm not paying attention to. I am paying attention to it. And I'm making sure that each and every fight I am fully aware of what's in front of me. Yeah. Now, champ, with that being said, your focus is 110% on Gilbert Burns.

I'm not taking the attention away from him. But I know as the champion, you're always going to be looking at, you know, who else is out there? what else is going on in your division. A couple of fights, so I just want to ask you about your opinion about. It's not official, but it looks like it's going to be Colby Covington and George Mazvedal sometime this year.

I don't know when or how it's going to happen. It seems like it's going to be a fight. When I spoke to Gilbert, he said, listen, you know, Uspin showed the game plan to beat Mazvadol. You know, he knows, he showed the where Mazadol has areas he needs to work on, and he felt like Colby would be able to expose that as well.

I'll ask you that question. What do you think about that potential matchup? Because that could have, you know, could potential put one of them back on track towards a potential rematch with you. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a fantastic matchup. I would watch that for sure.

I mean, yeah, I dispose of both guys, but I still would like to see what happened. And these guys trained together for years. These guys lived on each other's couches, and these guys shared everything. They shared food, shared burgers, and shared women, shared beds. You know, that's, that's, you know,

also it would be interesting to see who, you know, who was, You know, the leader of all that back when they shared those moments together. So, I mean, I think it's, I think obviously it's a treating fight, but I don't know if that's, it's actually really going to happen because I think both guys, you know, I know in my experience, trying to get a fight with those guys wasn't always the easiest. And that's both of them. So I can imagine how hard it's going to be just to get both of them to fight each other.

Yeah. The other one I want to ask you about is Kamsat Shama. against Leon Edwards. Now, you're one of the guys who's kind of been touting Leon Edwards is a guy that deserves that recognition, eight-fight win streak. And obviously, you have a win over him, so I know, you know, again, there's nothing personal there. But

Chameh has kind of come out of nowhere. Now he's going to fight the number three guy in the division after, you know, only one fight at Welchway. What do you think about that? And kind of a broader question, do you think Kamsat Chamev is the real deal? I mean, he showed, so far, he's showed that. I mean, when you, when you

come, when you, whoever they give him at the end of the day, a fight is a fight. You know, there's no such thing as an easy fight. I mean, obviously, guys could be mismatched and guys could be levels above other guys, but there's no such thing as it as an easy fight. And he's gone out there and disposed everybody they've put in front of him. Yes, granted, those guys aren't, none of those guys were in the top 10, top 15, top 20, you know, but at the end of the day, he still went out there and he did his job when it was

time for him to do his job. So I recognize that, and I take nothing away from him from that. That's just not who I am. Yeah, Leon Evers, I think, is a guy that has, you know, rightfully so I give credit what credit is due. He's been deserving of it because he's ever since the loss with me. He hasn't tasted defeat since. And he's worked on it. And he's been fighting guys.

He's fought a few guys in that top 10, top 15 position. So I think rightfully so he's a little more deserving. But, you know, Kamsat is not, is no slouch. He's not somebody to sleep on. It's definitely not someone to overlook. You know, he's coming and he's been making. a lot of noise so far. And yeah, you need to pay attention to that noise.

With that being said, Gilbert Burns is a new challenge for you. Because you have vanquished so many guys already in this division, it's kind of crazy when you think about your record. I mean, when you think about the guys you've already beaten in this division, it's a pretty long list already. Do those new challenges like a Gilbert Burns? Like, does that get you a little more excited than maybe those rematches? And again, I know if that's what comes up, but the UFC says, hey, champ, here's

a boatload of money. We're going to have you fight Colby Covington again. I'm quite sure you'll sign on that check-in-line, and maybe you'll take the other jaw this time. But with that being said, do new challenges get you more excited, or does it matter? It doesn't matter for me. I train, I prepare this same way.

I go, I just, I ruined my body in order to make sure that no one else could do that to me. And so I prepare that way for every one of those fights, and it just showed in every one of my fights. And so, yeah, it doesn't really matter. Of course, the money's a bone. I'll be lying in my money now. Of course, I want to make sure that, you know,

I get out what I've put into the sport. And yeah, I would take it. I don't mind it. Whether it's a rematch with either Coventon or Masfadol or Edwards, it doesn't matter. Or Burns, it doesn't matter. Whoever is next who has presented themselves as the biggest, baddest guy up to challenge the throne,

I have to go out there and do what I do best and walk away with that cash. Yeah, well, nobody's shown to be your equal yet. So I think it's a tall mountain to climb, right? Absolutely. It's a very big mountain. By the time you get up there, you know, you're probably winded from the climb itself. And then I have to put you back down.

Yeah, it says a lot, though, when you think about that, and I've said this for years, I think lightweight and welterweight have been the class of divisions in the UFC for a long time. And I know a lot of people believe lightweight is deeper. And it is deep. Don't get me wrong. But I've always said Welchewate doesn't get the credit, deserves because I think one to 15 man. I mean, look at what Wonderboy did to Jeff Neal.

I thought Jeff Neal, man. I thought Jeff Neal was like the truth. And he may still be. But you just never know with this division. And the fact that you've already conquered so many of these guys says a lot about the work you've been putting in because, like I said, the Leon Edwards fight is a guy you beat before you even became champion. So you've been putting in the work for quite a while now.

Yeah, absolutely. And that goes to, I think people kind of miscon screw, especially nowadays when they say a fighter is hurt. You know, a fighter can't do this. fight can't do that. People don't take into account what that fighter's putting himself through, what he's putting his body through, just to prepare to go out there and entertain. And so, you know, I've been putting in work for a long, long time. And sometimes more than I should, more than I need to, but who can say more than when you're successful in what you're doing?

So it is what it is. My body's taking the toll, but at the end of the day, I'm at that point where I've always wanted to be and that's proved that I am the best. Absolutely. Champ, it is always a pleasure to catch up with you. I appreciate taking the time. I miss chat with you. Like I said, I know you've been doing,

you've been handling and getting ready for the fight, but I'm like, man, it feels like we haven't chatted for a while. So I'm glad we got back on here to chat. Because like I said, it's a tradition. I think we've talked before every single UFC fight you've had all the way back to you in the ultimate fighter, I think, if I'm not mistaken. And so we go back away.

Thank you, as always for to, yeah. I think weird. So, you know, we all trying to adapt to the whole, you know, now everything is online. And then we don't, people don't see each other anymore. People don't really, you know, it makes it harder to keep in contact. It's true. It's true. It's true.

Well, Champ, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I really appreciate it. Safe training in these last couple weeks, been safe travels out to the fight. Cannot wait to see you back in action, February 13th against Gilbert Burns. Thanks, my man. I appreciate it. All right. Talk to you soon. All right. Bye-bye.

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