MMA Fighting - Michael Bisping: Celebrating The Extraordinary Career Of 'The Count' (w/ Chuck Mindenhall, Shaun Al-Shatti) | ‘DAMN! They Were Good’

Episode Date: June 2, 2022

DAMN! They Were Good is podcast where we celebrate the careers of some of our favorite fighters ever. This episode covers the many ups and downs of a man with one of the most remarkable careers in the history of MMA: Michael Bisping. After a career full of setbacks, Bisping authored an unbelievable late-career run that saw him finally win the UFC middleweight title, in one of the biggest upsets ever, knocking out Luke Rockhold at UFC 199. That win almost single-handedly changed the narrative of Bisping's entire career, and Shaun Al-Shatti and Chuck Mindenhall join Jed Meshew to discuss that and so much more. Follow Jed Meshew @JedKMeshew Follow Shaun Al-Shatti @ShaunAlShatti Follow Chuck Mindenhall @ChuckMindenhall Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and we are back with another episode of damn, they were good. Now, if you missed our first episode, we talked about the violent career of Carlos Condit. Make sure you go back, check that out. But this week, we are talking about a very different kind of fighter. One of the most interesting characters in the history of the sport, I think, a Hall of Famer, and a guy who, six years ago this week, won in dramatic fashion, won the UFC middleweight title, Michael Bisping. Before we get into celebrating the career of the count, let me introduce you to this week's panel. For my money, the two best writers in MMA, maybe just the two best writers in the world.

I don't want to pigeonhole them to only being the best writers in MMA. But from MMAfighting.com, Mr. Sean Al-Shadi and the man in the hat himself, Mr. Chuck Mendel, gentlemen, thank you for joining me today. Hey man Really nice intro And the latter is actually true Best writers in the world You know what I mean So forget about it

Whole world Not even a discussion really Yeah We need to build our credibility Immediately on this pod And that's how we're going to start it right now We are the best This is a podcast for building credibility

Let me just tell you that You know Cormick McCarthy You guys It's just dead heat Right there for Best Writers in the world. I mean, I once saw Chuck out drink Corp. McCarthy in a bar just to the degree where that guy was a sputtering mess. Like, he ain't got nothing on us. Come on now.

I would actually totally believe that. Cormic's real name I found out later that night was John McCarthy. That's a weird one. I didn't realize who I was drinking. Big? Is it big John McCarthy? That's the one. I thought it was Cormic, man. But anyway. It's wonderful to be here. And I have to say it makes my heart feel all sorts of warm, cuddly feelings inside to be reunited with my good pal-chuk. So thank you for doing this for us, Jed. You know, that was, I'm here to make your dreams come true, Sean. And I loved The Man in the Myth podcast. And I thought, you know, who better to talk about a really weird career than the two best writers in the world?

You know, let's see if you're two of the best talkers in the world. Because gentlemen, I'm going to start us out with a story. Because one of the reasons I wanted to talk about Michael Bisping this week, aside from the fact that it's the anniversary of him becoming the middleweight champion, is Michael Bisping is in many ways, or at least in some ways, responsible for this podcast. Because when I was a young pup, just getting into the world of M. May writing, I pitched an idea to the fine folks of Bloody Elbow. it was for a recurring series discussing the best fighters to have never even fought for a major organizational title. I did it for a lot of reasons, mainly because I think that we don't appreciate fighters like that enough because it's really weird. It is like the only, maybe not the only, but one of the few sports in the world were being one of the 10 best people at it in any job is just like not good enough.

That's insane. If you were the 10, if, you know, let's ask Corrin McCarthy, being the 10th best writer in the world, fairly lucrative, pretty good gig. But if you're just the number 10 middleweight and you never crack past that, you looked with kind of disdain. So I wanted to celebrate them. And at the time, this was right after Bisping's win over Anderson Silva. And I was like, who more embodies this than Michael Bisping? And so being cheeky, I named it the Michael Bisping Hall of Almost Fame, you know, trying to get those clicks. and like three weeks later, honestly, maybe even shorter than that.

Bisping stepped in on short notice to fight Luke Rockhold. Immediately won the middleweight title and made me look like a huge asshole. That's not hard, Jed. I've seen that happen several times in your career. But anyway, good at man. It's not hard. But this was the first time it ever happened. It taught me many lessons.

And it also taught me lessons because immediately after this thing came out, Michael Bisping, he at the time had his, serious ex-im show and his whoever was producer on that show reached out to me and was like hey this being just read your article he wants to come on the show and yell at you wow and i was like i it's like i'm in law school i can't just i can't just call into the show i have class but uh that was that was when i learned that fighters uh really don't like when you you you know give him a compliment with a sting in the tail. So I learned a lot,

but that was sort of the genesis of this whole podcast. It's been an idea that stuck with me for years kind of talking about fighters at the end of their careers, you know, after their careers

and celebrating them. I mean, just being honest about their careers as well. And that started with Michael Bisping. And so I wanted to do him very early and that's why we're here. What a segment that would have been.

I would have love to hear you call in and Michael Bisping. Just a fiery, like vinegar in his bones Michael Bisbing just dressed you down in the middle of law class. That would have been amazing. Your priorities are a little back. I have a lot of regrets. You got to go take your licks from

that guy. When you get the chance, you got to go do that. Well, I didn't realize that I would end up being in this sport in a professional capacity for really long time. Because I agree. I have regrets that I didn't do it. Maybe you'll hear this one and he will invite me on his, you know, Believe You Me

podcast. And then he can can get in all those shots and I can explain to him why I'm still totally correct because if you go and read that article, it's still up on bloody elbow. Every part of it is right except for the part where I say that he never fights for a major title because he does obviously do that and win it. But you didn't know that yet. He gave me something more important. Hey man.

I mean, who could have seen it? Who could have seen that coming? I've used the headline. I mean, it was common knowledge. I mean, this was discussed quite a bit back in the day, right? like this is a guy who leaves it at the altar every time he's close to get like he gets beat in the in the pivotal moment i i used to call him the penultimate fighter um because he was always that one right that's a phenomenal that's good so i mean that's why everybody was taking their shots jed you

weren't the only one you would have just been taking the lashes for all of us who were saying things like that yeah and i would have been fine to do it and now i wish i had because it would have been that would have been great content if nothing else that would have been good so for you guys though yeah i mean outside of the penultimate fighter kind of when you think of michael bisming sort of what is what what's the first thing you think of kind of what's the big do you have any notable interactions with him uh i would like last week we asked you know are you a big carlos condate guy i don't feel like anybody's a huge michael bisping fan though right like unless you are please tell me if i'm wrong i bet they are now i would say that probably wasn't a thing back in the day

or at least early on, right? Because I think that's one element of to the Bisbing story where, A, I don't know that he, I mean, I do know, he was thoroughly reviled for like a really, really long time. And it is so funny to see now because he's so beloved by universally, the MMA community. Like, everybody loves Michael Bisbing. He's fantastic. I love the guy. But if you go back to his origins, all of America kind of really hated this dude

for a really, really long time and like took joy out of his misfortunes when the Dan Henderson knockout happens at UFC 100. It's like one of the most joyous moments for a lot of people where it's the end of this ultimate fighter season and he was just this villain and he played such a good villain. He was the ultimate heel for so, so long. But also there was this element to it too where it was this tragic comedy almost where like Chuck said, like this penultimate fighter like there you would never see a fighter with more naysayers, with more doubters. Like at the time, I remember I worked on a piece for the athletic when we were still over there the night we faced Bisbing.

And I talked to like a lot of people who were around his orbit who fought him. And the common thread throughout his opponents was he was just in their eyes the biggest name guy possible who was very beatable, who they just knew. If I get this guy, hey, that's the springboard because I'm going to beat this guy. And it just. So true. That's like, that wasn't the case for a lot of times, right? Like this was, to me, genuinely, like, the essence of Michael Bisping is this guy was the definition of perseverance.

And like, you could run his career back a lot of different times and maybe you get a lot of different outcomes. But the actual one that we got feels so fitting and correct and right with what this guy embodied throughout because he just never, never gave up. And the way this all plays out, like to have his best run with one eye, short note. like all of this like every element of that just goes into this is a dude who just would not give up and he went from being the unluckiest fighter who so many different times i mean he might be the also the fighter most impacted by like steroid use and in that whole culture we're going to get to that for sure for sure he went from the unluckiest guy to just this the luckiest final stretch that you could pen imaginable in m m m ms like you like that's it that you look at the

the greatest final chapter of any fighter in history, and it's probably Michael Bisbing to some degree. And it's just, it's crazy. And again, he kind of reversed the polarity when it comes to how people thought of him. Because even when I spoke to all those opponents and stuff, like, so many former opponents who hated him back in the day were actually genuinely happy to see this guy get his happy ending, just because he worked so hard for it. He tried so hard for it. And he made it happen. Like it's, it's a,

it's a joke now. It's a mean. The believe, conceive, achieve, whatever. Michael Bisbach actually believed conceived and achieved

and achieved, dude. Like, it's, it doesn't make sense and it's still surreal all this time later. It's just so cool.

He's something like, that has always been. I was just going to say, he's four, he's like four or five biographies in one, right? Like,

he's a, he's a guy who, the way he started off is like you mentioned. I mean, I think that there are a lot of people was like, this is a prick.

I don't want to ever root for this guy. He's constantly on his skin. He's whiny. You know what I mean? Like he's just, he was just an unlikable guy, but the evolution of that. And part of it was him bringing people to his level of the way he saw the world, which was a difficult test. You have to be around a long time to make people start to agree with your cockiness and

arrogance and start to see some kind of sentiment within that and be like, you know what? No, he's good, you know? But you also have to lose catastrophically a lot, you know? And I feel like he did that. He did that just enough where people are like. like, well, you know, now he's a, he's kind of a sentimental figure because he'll never get that title shot, you know, and like he's just a guy who's been around. He fights everybody. He's starting to break records. He's got like some ridiculous amount of octagon time. You plug

them in in these weird situations. He's still England's guy. Yeah, it's ridiculous, right? Like, so people start to pay attention to all of the story on those levels. And then just when you think, literally, that his story has been written, and even if it's already that crazy, he gets that crazy shot against Rockhold out of nowhere. And it just seems, what was it, like a 16-day notice from wherever he was in Toronto. And he has that amount of time

you're thinking, wow, talk about a not very good idea, is to throw Michael Bisping in there against a guy who just beat him 18 months earlier and just wrecked him. And all of this stuff, and you're like, this is his title chance, like this conditional, everything stacked

against him against the guy who already has a number. It just seemed like a horrible setup for him to pull that upset, then go through his kind of vindication where, you know, Dan Henderson and Anderson. So you can talk about anything you want about his actual run. But that is just, it's unlike anything that's happened in any fighter's career in MMA. Now, I don't know, but boxing has a lot of crazy stories. But in terms of MMA, that is certainly the wildest trajectory I've ever seen.

And I think that most fans would probably agree with that. Yeah. And it's something that I think could never actually be duplicated, right? Because you look at the actual window of time when all this happened. It's like 18 months. It's like five fights over like 18 months. Like it is hyper condensed. And it is just it's it's that we talk about the Sisyphian aspect of this where the

penultimate fighter like he felt so forever close to it. And then when it actually happened, his story was already like written at that point. Like we had already sort of shuffled him off. Jed, you've wrote the column like the. Like the best guy to never win the title. Like that's who he was. And we were all kind of just, again, like Chuck said, he almost became like a sympathetic figure at that point.

We all kind of acquiesced like, okay, tough stuff, Mike. Like you were still really popular. And you made a lot of money. He's got one eye. Everybody knows it going into this situation. Nobody's like, you know what I mean? It was like people try not to make a big deal out of the biggest deal that could possibly be a guy has one eye going into these situations.

It is insane to me how that was just the most open secret. for like four years. Unbelievable, man. Doesn't have an eyeball. That's fine. It's not a big deal. It could like all of this could just never be duplicated. It is so,

so crazy. And again, I've said it once, but just it's surreal even now after all this time because in a way it was almost never supposed to happen. Like all of this was never supposed to happen. It was definitely never. This is,

it's not even that it couldn't be duplicated. If you wrote his story, like he has the most Disney movie story of all time to the point where if you wrote it, they'd be like, that's not, that's just, come on, he lost an eye, too. We're really stacking things up against him. This is ridiculous. Just have him overcome the bully, and he wins. You don't have to do too much. It's the only person I can think in MMA who is even similar, and I don't think she's to the degree. But Misha Tate, finally getting the UFC belt from Holly Home, that's the only kind of similar overcoming a lot of stuff, perseverance to get here. but I think, you know, she did it with two eyeballs.

So that's dramatically different than doing it as a cyclone. She's very metaphysical. No, I'm kidding. Go ahead. The other thing is Bisping was commonly, like you mentioned him ended up being this kind of Disney-esque fairy tale story, which is just that's what makes it just his legacy perfect for anybody to actually go view in like the perseverance, everything he had to go through to get it. but man he was cast a couple of times as a guy who was standing in the way of other people's

you know they're there's disney stories or whatever i mean when he fought chel sonan he was kind of this roadblock everybody was like dude he's just shale's got to get through him so we can see that rematch with anderson silver that's the only thing that people cared about um you know matt hamill back in the day was really quick really quick people people forget that like chel kind of lost that fight like chale today will tell you he probably lost that big fight but the whole world the whole world just wanted Mike Nobody wanted Mike to win Everybody wanted to see Anderson versus Chale again

So everybody even the judges are kind of like Okay Let's just give it to jail so you're 100% right And even the even when he fought Hamill right Like there were people talking about Hamill you know movies and things like that Because here's a death fighter Which is kind of when you think about it

Given that Michael Abisping had one eye Later in his career how how bizarre this is too Just kind of the sensory things that are going on in this But like you know Matt Hamillard was the guy they're like, well, eventually there'll be like movies about this guy because this isn't remarkable. It's just, when you look

at the career as a whole, man, I mean, he's went through every kind of thing, from B-siding, to being an obstacle, to being the guy who saves events, you know, to being a champion. It's just, it's I don't even, I mean, what can you say? Because even if you tried to write that, the only thing that he did wrong was lose to Gasolm. If he had just left after

GSP, not taking that last week, it would actually been a perfect career, I think. Like, you know, in this weird storytelling sense and in legacy and just what you have to do because all the things that matter, him persevering, him doing these things under the incredible odds would be intact. They still are. It doesn't lose much.

But that was the one thing that you're like, why'd you have to take that one last L on, like, you know, at the end there? But that's the only thing, honestly, in terms of his career whole. I do wish selfishly that we would have gotten, you know, I know they talked about maybe a fight against Rashad at the end or something. wish we would have gotten some sort of, you know, legends fight at the end for Mike so that he could go through that farewell tour, that victory tour, because you're right, the Gasolam one was what, like two, three weeks after the GSP fight. It was such a quick turnaround. Other side of the world,

last second replacement. Like, it just, I don't feel like it was a proper sendoff for someone on Mike's caliber. And I would have loved to see him go on the farewell tour. And I guess he got that ultimately when he was enshrined in the Hall of Fame and he really did get a moment to receive his flowers from a lot of people well deserved absolutely but I do wish we sort of would have had that one final like vintage Mike performance against maybe someone who you know was also on the back nine yeah I I mean honestly I just wanted him to go out in England like that yeah exactly not to not have gotten the final fight in England like that not in Shanghai China yeah and Shanghai China yeah and Shanghai China

Not on like two days notice. Yeah. Wasn't it like a, you know, in the morning for us? Like it was just a very. It was like a super weird thing because he, because I remember at the time he had said very clearly like, I'm still after the GSP loss, like I'm going to retire soon. But he's like, I don't know. I'm still in good shape.

I just kind of want to go get another paycheck and then I'll do it. But then after he got bolted by Gastilum, he was like, oh, that's when he started having vision problems in his other eye. He was like, I might be blind. I should probably not. be blind, which is great choice on his part. If you have the option to not be blind, take that option for sure. But it's just a tough, it's just a tough to not that his final fight wasn't against.

We'll get into into that with some of the categories a little later. But I think there could have been some really fun fights for him to retire or just give him a squash match in England. I don't care if he fights anybody good. You just deserve to have. And we saw earlier this year the O2 how that place exploded for Tommy Aspinall and company. Michael Bisping, the final fight of his career after he's won the belt, that place is going to be a nuclear bomb. And he deserved to have that to go out. So that is a shame.

Also, because it's been said many times about his life story, how great it is, have either of you read his book because it's fantastic? Yes, it's sensational. our good buddy Ann Evans worked on that and shout out aunt who's probably listening

to this but it's good stuff one of one of my favorite if I think maybe the Ken Chamrock book is my favorite MMA fighter

autobiography but Bisping is quitters never win I think is the name of it it's a really good book and because we probably won't talk about it just just worth noting

this man you know his life is even more impressive because with a seven month pregnant wife. He went to jail, like real jail for a while and then came out of that to turn his life into this thing. Like, the man is a Disney movie. And, and that is... He's like three Disney movies.

He really is. It's so wild. It's so insane. Well, that is a good preamble to what we're talking about here. Let us move into some categories. Before we do that, for the listeners, I'm going to give you a quick recap. We talked a lot about his career, but just run through some of the major highlights here as a refresher in case you guys aren't up to date in your Michael Bisping info. He began his career in 2004 in England. He won the Cage Rage, light heavyweight title in his third fight, and then the Cage Warriors light heavyweight title in his fifth. From there, he was cast in season three of the Ultimate Fighter. Back when being in the Ultimate Fighter meant something, you know, as opposed to just being a new pipeline into the UFC. You don't watch it anymore? He won that.

I haven't watched it in years. Not getting in on this Bobby Maximus action? What's going on? Why would I watch it when our good friend Alexander Kay Lee. Oh, yeah, see. Didn't work out for him being 43 years. You got a sucker on the roster over there. All right.

So Bisping, after he answers the UFC, puts together some wins, gets his first career loss against Rashad Evans in a split decision. That moves into middleweight and the rest of his career is at middleweight. And then the rest of his career is what we talked about. He won a bunch but always seemed to lose the big fight. Dan Henderson, Van der Le Silva, Chal Sun, and Vitor Belfort. The Belfort fights the big one because that is the one that ultimately led to him losing his eye and then fighting four more years with one eye, which is again his first years.

Yeah, his four best years are when he lost an eye. It doesn't make sense. And then he loses to Luke Crockhold And that really seemed to be the end of it And then suddenly he goes on the career-defining run Rattles off a bunch of wins Anderson Silva beats Luke Crockhold in the rematch Gets the title belt

Goes on you know fights Dan Henderson in a vanity match Fights GSP loses a title Fights Castle and loses that He retires with a number of accolades He is the first British UFC champion and off the top of my head, is he still the only? I can't think of anyone else. Yes, he is still the only British UFC champion.

He holds the record for most wins, most fights, most fight time and most significant strikes in middleweight history inside the UFC. He retired with most fights in UFC history. That's since been passed by a number of people. He had five fight of the nights, two performance of the nights, in an overall record of 30 and 9. and in 2019, he was inducted into the UFC Hall of Fame, a well-deserved induction, but kind of that's the nuts and bolts of Michael Bisping's career.

So let's roll ourselves into our categories to kind of dive deeper into what that means. We know you love the thought of a vacation to Europe, but this time, why not look a little further to Dubai, a city that everyone talks about and has absolutely everything you could want from a vacation destination. From world-class hotels, record-breaking skyscrapers, and epic desert adventures, to museums that showcase the future, not just the past. Choose from 14 flights per week between Canada and Dubai. Book on emirates.ca.com.

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We're going to break down the many things that happened in Michael Bisping's career. And we're going to start, as always. with the Mount Rushmore. Everyone should be fairly familiar with how Mount Rushmore works. You pick your top four fights. You name what they are. And I'm leaving that open to interpretation. It can be the four fights you think most define his career, his best performances,

his most memorable, however you want. And I think with this being, depending on your interpretation, this could be really interesting. I'll lead off with mine because honestly, this was the most difficult award for me. because for as much as Michael Bisping's career was really relevant and important, the nuts and bolts of it are kind of a tough hang. He does not have a lot of fights to, like, scream, I want to go rewatch that. With Carlos Condit, I could have had 30. Like, you just throw a dart, any of them you could put on Collis Condit's Mount Rushmore. With Bisping, you got to have Lou Crockhold at UFC 199.

I mean, that's the career defining performance. He wins the belt. his best performance ever probably and probably the best highlight he's ever authored too. So it's that. I also took Anderson Silva. I was UFC London at a fight night event in 2016. That, I mean, prior to the Rockwell thing,

that was the fight. That was the fight that for years he had won it. He finally got it. We're going to talk more about that fight moving forward, I'm sure, but he gets his hand raised. I've got to take that. I'm going with Josh Haynes,

his win off the, Ultimate Fighter finale. I like it. I like it. That is mostly just because the outside of the top two, I think that there's not, nothing else really jumps out. But the Josh Hayden one is just a very important fight for his career as he wins the ultimate fighter contract.

He's now established in the UFC. The UFC immediately is behind him as a promotional entity because he's English. And this is at a time when the UFC is really trying to grow their international fan base. You know, Bisping has the gift of gab. He has a terrible shaved head. He does much better later in life when he adopts the lettuce. But he's still a guy that want to get behind. And Josh Haynes is that big seminal moment in his career.

Really quickly. Before you move on from Josh, can I tell a story about Josh Haynes? Oh, I love you to tell a story about Josh Haynes. So one of my favorite parts of doing the Night We Face series is just getting to be able to talk to a lot of the former opponents just so much after the, fact and or sort of seeing like who came around right of like that is i referenced it earlier of like who kind of came around like oh like i'm a i'm a fan of nate diaz or i'm a fan of josal or whoever the the subject is the funny thing with mike is that it was it was so it was so polarized because as i said a lot of guys did come around just because he came became such a sympathetic figure but a lot of

the early guys like in that in that middle in that early section of tough house with him yeah where it was like mike is just an asshole basically during this part of his portion of his career and he's letting you know about it while he's doing it while he's beating your ass basically those guys maybe didn't come around as much and of everyone i reached out to i actually didn't get to joc to josh for the piece but of everyone i have reached out to for any of these stories and i think i've done several at this point five six maybe he might be the most salty interview subject i have ever reached out to and just had a conversation with about hey will you will you speak to me for 20 minutes about this guy who beat you up?

I had reached out to him to speak to this story. And he didn't, he didn't respond multiple times and I just kept kind of pestering him. And finally he did respond. We had a brief conversation and he made it very, very, very apparent to me that he hates Michael Bisping and he hates the fact that all of this happened for Mike. And like he was just the saltiest person.

Wow. I have ever spoken to before this. And he utterly refused to give me. even like a minute of his time for this. Like it was, it was, I, I, that's hilarious. I don't want to publicly release things that he said that were in private, but it was, it was quite interesting to just see like, oh, dude, like you never kind of got over this. Like this was a seminal moment for you and you just never moved past it.

Wow. That is not what I would have anticipated was coming from John Fates because it's not like, it's not like they were both undefeated guys. And that's, that was really the, the. thing that derailed Josh Haynes' career. Josh Haynes was overachieving it tough. He lost it tough and came back to then fight in the finals. So shocking to hear that.

But okay. Good to know that early guys still feeling some type of way because a lot. There's that grudge match they could have used at the end of the career, right? Like, there's the grudge match. Bring back, Josh Haynes, baby. That would be the best retirement fight possible. Let's go. just bookend his UFC career right there perfect

so my last one I was torn between two because I don't feel Brian Stan's just not like a fun fight to watch but I think it's a more important fight so I took the Sexyama Yoshiri Akayama fights him at UFC 120 arguably his best performance to date at that point

he really put the boots to Sexyama outstruck him by like 100 strikes or something, which at the time was not like, now we get a lot of fights where people are throwing, landing 120 plus strikes around. You know, Max Holloway has broken MMA in that regard. But back in the day, much less common, especially in middle weight and higher.

So I'm rounding myself out with Yoshihara Akiyama. Chuck, let's go to you. How do you feel about my list? Do you have the identical list? What's your list look like? It's, I thought for a minute we were going to be identical, but the, uh, the Haynes one, that's, that's a good call. That is a good call. I did not have that on there. And I actually, instead, I thought about, uh, Sexyama. I was like that, that, I remember that fight. I remember watching it and, and, and this is this thing that you've thought could be there. Like the guy, his full potential, he looked great in that fight. I ultimately picked Kung Lee, only because that fight was just kind of bonkers. That's a good one. That's a good one. And it was one of those later, it was kind of little, it was kind of little, little later for Michael Bisping and he was able to get a finish in that fight, but just a, you know, just a gunfight. They went in there to kill each other. I mean, and like you mentioned,

Bisping, he had a fairly, like he could nullify if he needed to, like, because he went against wrestlers and guys like that, like, you know, big punches. He could, he could figure out ways to make a fight a little ugly and sometimes he didn't. And I think in that type of fight, like, he went out there and he was like, let's just, I'll meet you, I'll accommodate you, let's do this. So that fight always stands out to me. That was a good one. I have to go, I agree with both the Anderson Silva because how can you not, the fact that he got Anderson Silva in that context, after all those years of being in Anderson's shadow when Anderson was ruling that division, was just poetic in itself, like just him making the walk to go fight him, you know, and then to have,

you know, success in that fight, the controversy that we have that fight, everything that went around it. It just was, it seems so kind of epic for his career at that moment, you know, I still think that that one holds the test of time. The Rockhold obviously... It's important to remember on the Anderson. It's important to remember on the Anderson thing too because I think in retrospect, people look at Anderson differently, not in his career,

but at least in that specific instance, he had lost twice to Widman, but he had beaten Nick Diaz. There had obviously been the whole everything that came out after that with the failed drug tests and that being turned into a no contest, but Anderson wasn't washed, washed like he got to be at the end of his actual UFC run.

He was still, there was still cachet to fighting Anderson Silva, even though he was clearly past his prime. So I think that win probably has not aged as well as it could have, but at the time was still a really meaningful win. Sure. Yeah. It felt that way. And then the Rockhold won, obviously, because of everything we've mentioned, but also

there was a smugged. There was a juxtaposition there, like of the smugness of rock. Rockhold and that lead up to the fight. Just that the inevitability that he's going to win. Saying that Bisping had pillows for hands. Like he would never be able to knock anybody out. Like, not worried about it in the slightest. So to get the knockout and to watch Rockhole go down the way he did, it's impossible.

This is one of those things where fighting translates it for people who watch other sports, but they don't really watch fight or maybe they casually watch fighting and you're like, well, what's the big deal about these? Those are the moments in fighting that you're like, you can't, you can't, even get close in other sports. It's, it's one of those situations. You're like, dude, you have to understand the full context of this. And if you went into that fight, understanding the full context of what was, what had happened, what it stood before, the improbability of everything, the poetic nature of everything, that knockout was insane. You know, it's like it just,

it checked every single box. And so to me, that's, that's the number one. I think that would have to probably be all of our number ones. I don't know. We'll wait for Sean. Sometimes he throws curveballs. For sure, for sure. But I kind of cheat on this last one, okay? Because to me, if you could put a slash through and show both Henderson fights, you show the first one because I think such an important part of his career was getting that viral CO, getting knocked out like that. Just such a vital point of his career. So much of what came out of the way we view him comes from that one fight, right?

Like, it's just there's so much to it. It's mostly negative. He's had to deal with it the whole time, like, had to overcome it. So much of that stood the test of time. into their rematch and then if you could show then the other the other fight with henderson how that one played out um you know him tagging henderson multiple times in that in that fight i just think it almost happened again yeah almost happened again in that fight twice you're absolutely right twice i know i know but if you were just to put those two together how differently all of these

conversations would be if that had been how that ended i know 100 percent 100 so it's like it's kind of the bookends to like a uh a crazy run you know what i mean so I know it's kind of cheating, but I feel like the Henderson series belongs there somehow. Does it bother you at all that he should have lost to Henderson in the rematch as well? And the judges gave him a gift of a victory. Because I will stand on this corner forever. Yeah, that doesn't bother me. I haven't rewatched it since the fight.

But yeah. I rewatched it again for this. And I, at the time, I scored it 48, 46. and I will stand on this corner forever. Dan Henderson almost killed him, and so that should win the fight because in the same way we wanted Michael Bisping to win the belt, we all wanted Dan Henderson to win the title.

Here you are sobering everything up. Come on, Jen. I wanted Mike to get his moment there. I was perfectly happy with it. I think Mike won that fight. That's where I'm saying. Oh, man, he's going to like you a lot more once he listens to this than he likes me.

But that's okay. We already have beefed me in Mike. Sean, what about you? where I assume that you share at least two of our, the same two that Chuck and I share. So I actually like what Chuck just did there, juxtaposing the Henderson first one and the second one. And I almost want to do the same with Luke Rockhold, but in a different way, like, if actually, if you look at, it's almost weird to talk about, but if you look at the post-fight press conferences for each Luke Rockhold fight and sort of the difference between them, It is so stark and so just incredible to see how the difference between just a span of a couple years. Because if you watch, go back and watch the press conference, the post-fight press conference,

from after the first Rockhold fight, Michael Bisbing, it's almost like a realization in his mind that, like, this is it. Like, this is the, it's done. Like, because that's kind of how we all felt at the moment, too, right? Like, this was sort of the last run. This is the last chance for him. It was right after the Kung Lee fight. we just mentioned. And it just, for it to end so unceremoniously, like, you, you can just see him staring

beyond the wall, the back wall, the press conference, just miles and miles. Like, he has a miles long stare in that press conference. And he's kind of trying to crack jokes and just be his normal jovial self, like, his cheeky self. But, like, it is just such a somber moment. And it almost feels like a funeral with the, with the questions that are being asked and all of this. And yet he's still, like, that whatever that.

fighter element of him is still right there because every time somebody's like okay is this are you going to quit like is this kind of the end he's like no I'm a fighter like I'm a fighter I'm going to keep fighting I'm going to keep trying to do this and it just felt so like just going through the motions at that point it felt so like perfunctory in a way that is so strange to see now like to watch back in retrospect but whereas the the post fight press conference to the second rock hold fight Chuck I think you and I have talked about this on one of our old pods when we did like a a fight flashback of this. Y'all, if you haven't, if you weren't around for UFC 199, don't even watch the fight.

Go back and find the press conference and watch the press conference. Because that was when they would do press conferences with all the fighters still in the room together immediately after all of us. It is the single greatest post-fight press conference in the history of post-fight press conferences. It is just, it is just an unbelievable performance. Like, you can go back now and you will lose your. mind laughing at some of the one-liners coming from just what what's up i see you i'm saying also credit to luke rock hold for just being the the lamest dude ever because it makes it

so good in that post fight because he doesn't take an ounce of humility he got served a heaping helping of humble pie oh my god doesn't care he is just jawing at bispying and bismuched just like, I just knocked you out in the first round, you goon. It just can't handle that moment. Like, it is one of the moments, a few moments. I like the new format because you can get more time with everybody when it's individual. But this is one of the moments where that old format is just so clearly superior because Rockhold is just so supremely pissed off.

And Mike comes in hot as hell. Just being a pompous dickhead, he is gleeful. He comes in and he's just like, some say revenge. is sweet. I say it's better than sweet. And then just he asked Luke to thank him. He has Luke to thank him and they're doing a back and forth. And then he just cuts Luke off, turns to the media and points to Luke and he's like, what an asshole, guys? And just claps in his face. Like it is, it isn't tour to force. It is a 10-7. The whole way through is unbelievable. It's like he knew Luke's arrogance. He could just run circles around it, man. He knew he could do that. He knew he could do that.

It shows you so much how much. Yeah, man. It just showed you how much better he was at playing the game. And I mean, that's like denial from Rockhold right there. Still thinking that, you know, you're not superior anymore, man. They just lost, you know. It was crazy. I last thing I'll say about the press coverage, my favorite moment comes at one point. It's after all of this.

Like he's been going for a bit. And it's clear like, okay, maybe he's running out of steam. He stops everything. He gets Luke's attention. And it's like, hey, hey, hey, hey. and he just kind of like slowly lifts the UFC belt in front of Luke's face. It's just like, oh my God, man. I cannot imagine the emotions running through Luke Rock holds head as he's sitting here

listening to this dickhead talk for like 40 minutes. It is like a long press conference, man. Yeah, because he was holding, as he should. And I think when we talked about it earlier, it's really interesting that like, I remember at the time that that was just great. And it's still great. And had that happened, If he had beaten Anders and Silva to get the belt and done that, he would have been the world's biggest villain.

But because he had already had all the setbacks, because it's Luke Rockhold, who is an unintentional villain. Like, Biss Bing's an intentional villain. He says stuff. Luke Rockhold just is a good point, man. Is that way. And so it was sweet to watch this arrogant dude get fed crow. And it was just, it was such a perfect moment. It's a phenomenal point to bring up, Sean.

It's absolutely worth watching if you guys have not seen it. I promise it's on YouTube, go find it. It's just so good. Honestly, that's better. I would rather watch that than the Sexyama fight for sure. The press conference alone should be on my Mount Rushmore. But yet, I agreed with two, actually three of your picks, Jed. I had Luke Rockhold.

I think the Anderson Silva fight is, it has to be on there as well. I know for a long time, we said it, so I won't reiterate it. But Mike kind of felt like that was his title fight. If he had retired after the innocent one, I don't know that he would have been fully content. But I think some level of contentment would have been in there. Like, okay, I beat the guy who was the guy for my entire career, basically. And that meant something to him. Also, the way that fight went, like, Mike almost getting knocked out and basically actually getting knocked out, like mid-fight.

And then coming back and winning the fourth round, like right after that, like, that is literally the definition of what makes this guy so incredible. It's just the perseverance of that. It's a microcosm of his career in that one fight. it's just unbelievable. And if that fight's not in London, maybe that fight gets stopped, right? Like, who knows? Drew.

We're going to talk about that in a minute. So I also had the Josh Haynes one, the Josh Haynes element to it. Nice. Because I think a lot of people don't realize how incredible it was for Mike to even be there on the ultimate fighter. Like, England was in a very weird place

when it came to MMA at that point in time. And this was actually something I kind of learned a little bit about when I was doing that piece of just like they were almost in their own bubble. Like they like they did not exist to the rest of the world when it came to MMA. It was all very weird and back alley and gangstery in a strange way. Like it was there's a lot of just weird stuff going on and angling and the scene didn't really exist. But once that opportunity came, it was almost just unanimously agreed like, oh, Mike's going to be the guy. Like Mike's going to like like aunt when I spoke to aunt for the story, he told a great story about how Mike goes.

in to the tryouts. And it's the tryouts for the ultimate fighter. And he goes into the interview and there's this big long table and like all the hot shots are there, Joe Silva, Dana White. I think Forrest Griffin's there and the producer of the show, the executive producer, the ultimate fighter is there. And Mike comes in and they're all looking at him. And the first question is just like, oh, so what do you think of all the competition out there? And he just, his answer is like, oh, I'm fucking thrilled that they're there. I'm thrilled because you can't pick them and not pick me. And if you're going to pick anyone, you've got to pick me because I beat all. of them and it's just like that element of cockiness is just so spectacular and so the Josh

Haynes one for me is his breakout uh it's the first time that we really knew who it was as an american audience we fucking subtitled him which is hilarious that's right in retrospect we subtitle sometimes i wish that i honestly forgot we did that that is unbelievable i can't believe they did that that's we don't dare until we don't subtitle anybody we don't subtitle Scalcers me, subtitle Bisping? That's nuts. And then the last one for me. You're right, Jed, that it's kind of hard in a weird way to pick with Mike. Like, there are, it is sort of strange.

There aren't a lot of really incredible peaks. His best highlights are him losing. Like the, the here, show me a quick vine of this is him getting knocked out by Dan Anderson or Vitor Belford. It's not, he doesn't have that many others. I remember Dan Henderson once told me. for a long time. Dan Henderson told me like, I don't know, this wasn't that long ago, maybe like five years

ago, but a long time after UFC 100, he's like, somebody had asked him, what is the, when people approach you, strangers, like, what are they, what are they, what are they, when I talk to him, he's like, everybody always just mentions, thank you for knocking out Michael Bisping. This was like, that's what they remember the most about his career, you know. He took that as his logo. I was going to say, he made that his logo. And even, you at the award show, like, when.

year they even did a spoof on this. It was like pillows, like he was selling pillows or something, and he's, it was like all about his, you know, you know the award show where they do those dumb little commercials. Yeah, fighters only would for sure do that. Yes. Yeah, I mean, that's for the longest time that was, in my mind, the definitive MMA highlight. Like, I mean, there are tons of them, but I'm just thinking of one, it's the H-bomb from Hindo. And, you know, we talked about you got to exercise those demons.

There's, there are a whole short stories written. about that follow-up. I mean, it's like, that in itself was a story. In retrospect, an incredibly dirty follow-up. Oh, yeah.

Wildly inappropriate. Way over the line. Like, that would be, he would be received very differently. That would be received very differently in 2021, 22. And Hindo even says it too.

He's like, yeah, didn't he did him. Just kind of wanted to shut him up. That's tough scene. Shut him up. That's just a tough scene. So what are you closing down with then, Sean?

Yeah. So my final one, I went early as well on this. I went to the very, very early England scene where it was kind of the fight where Mike established himself as the man in the English scene. It was the second fight against Mark Epstein. Because at that point, Mark Einstein was sort of the man in the scene. And then Mike beat him once. And then it was Mark Epstein's like a classic British tough guy.

Like he's like a real tough guy. Like you don't want to mess with Mark Epstein in a bar like something really crazy could happen to you back in the day. And so Mark Epstein was able to finangle himself a quick rematch right after that. Mike just handled him again like it was nothing. And at that point, it was pretty unanimous among everybody in England. Like, oh, if we get a guy, it's going to be Mike. And I think that in itself is important. And I want to throw in one story real quick, just very, very quickly, about that time.

Because I spoke to Dave O'Donnell, the founder of Caged rage. And he was telling me the way that he got introduced to Mike was he gets his phone call. And they're like, hey, Dave, I got this geyser. Mike the Count Bisping. He's, he's descended from a count. He's got this Dracula get up.

He comes in in a big cape. And it's just, he's got a bunch of fans and it's a whole Dracula setup. And it's just, I wish I could see video of that. I don't know if that's true. I want it to be true.

I just want to see him walk. I want that to be true so much. I so badly want to see him walk down with the Dracula get up. Man. That is awesome. That is the best story. I also am just now realizing.

You're the right guy to have on here because you talk to all these cats, man. That's awesome. Like, that's some. crazy backstory right there. It's not a mistake.

You know what you're doing. I know what I'm doing. Strategic. I like it. I also just realized this when you said Epstein and I looked him up and realized that they rematched. Michael Bisping, four and no in rematches. Like, good for him. Ross Pointing at Tough. I mean, he won the first one. He won the first one against Epstein, but beat Rockhold the second time.

And who is the other person? Oh, Hindo, of course. So four and oh and rematches. Good for you, Mike Bisping. And that's three and one. That first Ross fight. Hando. No. Gordon.

That first Ross one. Officially. Officially. The first Ross one like illustrates exactly how much of a maniac Mike was because I think that fight was like literally the day before the tough tryouts. And just goes in there and handles Ross and then goes to the tough tryouts. Well, I mean also fair credit to Ross for also going to the tough trials after getting handled by this being the night before.

Tough bastards. man MMA was people were built different back in the day it was it was just a bunch of lunatics running around I love it I love it so much that like weird era is just my favorite

because there's so many stories it is that's why I wanted to do this I want to relive the fun things of being a fan of the MMA in the late 90s early 2000s where everybody was just a maniac alright so we have pretty much agreement here on Mount Rushmore

for at least half of it And then the other, you can sprinkle in and feel good. Let us move on to our next category. And I'm not good at the impression, but I'm not impressed by your performance. That's pretty good. George St. Pierre. What is the low, the career low for Michael Bisping, you know, it can be inside the cage, outside of the cage. For Bisping, I don't think outside of the cage would be the same as some other fighters we may talk about on here eventually.

But what's the career low performance for you? Chuck, let's start with you. Where are you going? See, this is one of those categories where he actually had several very low lows, right? They're contenders. There are contenders.

I mean, I'll throw out, obviously, if you lose your eye, that's a low moment in your career. I can't even begin to imagine. That's pretty bad. It's pretty bad. You really went out on a limb there, did you, Chuck? Especially, you know, this was that feasting period for the

TRT Vitor when they were just dropping guys in by helicopter to just get annihilated in Brazil and what was it, 2013 or whatever that was, or 12. It's just... 2013, yep. Yeah, I mean, that, that, that year

by itself for the TRT VT tour is just, it's almost, it's like it's, it's, it's almost it feels too fantastic, too weird, too out there to really have existed, but that particular fight, I can't even begin to imagine what it took for him to accept what had happened

to move on and to keep going. So I feel like that had to have been just a rock bottom moment on a lot of levels. But I mean, I don't want to take all of them, but the UFC 100 one would just discuss when it goes viral and people are seeing that forever.

And they've used that on every piece of B-roll in UFC history when they're trying to just show how crazy the sport is and all that stuff. Like when you're on the receiving end of that, that can't feel good either. And he was very close. if you recall, like to finally breaking through and getting a title shot,

all those things were going to play, and it was just destroyed all in one big point. That was a title eliminator fight. Yeah. Yep. So, I mean, all of that stuff is. He gets his title shot. So I'll give you those two. I know there are others to choose from, but I will give you guys the floor for the others here.

Sean, where are you coming from? That V-Tor year is just so, it's such a bizarre moment in history, looking back on it. Yes, it is. You got two other guys we've been talking about. You got Sean's doing right now. He's putting together a feature in his mind right now. That's what he's doing. That's what I like about him.

The V-R-Tor feature? That's going to be a good one. I would read that at some point. I'll be honest. That dude doesn't deserve that. That was ridiculous with that. That was like one of the worst cheats in MMA history. Totally legal.

He did nothing wrong. Unapologetic about how badly he was cheating. Like the fact that that was allowed to happen and that he was able to do that to Luke and Dan and Mike in that one year and then just not fight. for like a year and a half and the next time we see him he's obviously not the same guy screw that guy man that guy doesn't deserve anything you won't you won't be invited on that pod then Sean I do not want to be on invited on that pot because I'm just going to crap on him for two hours so yeah I mean chuck hit the big ones in terms of the low lights I think you could also throw

the Jorge Rivera incident there because I think for a long time oh right that probably colored a lot of people's impressions of Mike where he spits on him or the cornerman after the after the the fight. I mean, it is what it is. It's the fight game. Jorge Rivera talked a lot of shit before that fight. I kind of understand to some degree. I will say that the video, remember the video he put out? Yeah, exactly. Like a music video, yeah. That got really fiery. And, you know, I can see where Mike was coming from. Maybe you don't spit on him, though. The Gastilum fight, I think, too, we mentioned we hit on it a little bit. I wish that would have, he would have gone out in a different way. But other than that, I think we hit the big ones.

See, so this is so interesting to me because he has so many lows that would define other fighters' careers, right? Like the Hindo thing should define a fighter's career that loss. The Vitor, I mean, it's hard to argue with Chuck. If you lose an eyeball, that is a low point by any definition of it. But the first two, honestly, that jumped out to me, and one of them after upon thinking, I decided it's not fair enough. It was the George St. Pierre loss, just because I think people forget that he was kind of kicking GSP's ass in that fight. He had like a slow first round, but GSP was visibly winded, busted open from elbows, and then Mike just kind of got blown up by a welterweight. Granted, greatest fighter of all time.

And, you know, in hindsight, you can just sort of forgive it because he had already had his laurels playing with house money at that point. So I don't think it can be a career low. but his career would be very differently had he won that fight because I think there would have been a really good chance that he just retires if he beats GSP. I think he's just like, yeah. Yeah. Because he clearly didn't want to fight Yowell

or Robert Whitaker or do that song and dance. And it was a fight he was winning. And if he goes out, retired as the middleweight champ who just beat one of the greatest fighters of all time, like that is unbelievable. But I kept circling back to the first Rockhold loss. Because of everything you said earlier, Sean, because of at that post-fight press conference, it was like a funeral. It was, and it should have been.

Like, it still boggles my mind that he continued to compete after that, knowing that he had one working eyeball, that he had a family, and that he had pretty clearly just, it wasn't going to work for him. Like, all right, you lost to the new breed of dude, and it wasn't competitive. Luke Rockhold beat the brakes off of him. and so any other fighter could have easily hung it up and walked away and instead he just had the best run of his life which is really a testament to him right after that fight he fought in Montreal

against C.B. Dalloway. Remember this? It was a very lacked fanfare completely because of what had happened before and I remember and Ariel tells the story too him basically saying like I will be back I will fight for a title again and I remember just hearing him say this and you're like oh man he's

He's now in that delusional part of his career, you know, just that, that, like, now you're getting the guy who just, he's going to hang on to some old goal that is completely gone. And we, I know I've talked to Ariel about this before because he heard him, I guess he told him the same thing in an interview. And it's just one of those remarkable things when you look back and you think, this guy was already repairing. He was already doing this again, but nobody was hearing what he was saying at that moment. And then for him to do it, that's pretty crazy. It's insane Well, I think I'm going to settle on giving it to the Vitor fight Because as Chuck said, when you lose an eyeball, that's really as low as you can go in the sport

So well argued, we're going to move on to the Ivan Minchavar award So Ward is named after Ivan Mingevar who One of my favorite facts about MMA is that George St. Pierre's first career fight came against Ivan Mngevar That is right, yeah A guy who went on to be a bantam weight for much of his career And a good one. That's hilarious. But it's always just the weirdest thing to me that I look back.

It's like, oh, George St. Pierre fought Ivan Minjavar. So the Ivan Minjavar, this is what is the weirdest, most surprising either. It's supposed to be the most weird or surprising opponent, the fighter face. But you could also extrapolate that out to just a weird moment, a weird incident. Get a little odd with it. I have, I took a page out of Sean's book from the last episode. I did a deep dive and I've got a great one. So I want to go last.

You want to go last? I want to go last. But what if we take it? I want to go last because there's almost no chance you're taking it. I cannot believe you would take it. That's a hell of a setup. I love it. It's, I'm going to give you guys some reading material after the fact.

Bait and the hook. Dive deep into this human being. I'm a big fan of this. I'm a big fan of this. Bait in the hook. But Sean. Let's start with you. What do you have for the Ivan Minjavar Award?

So this one was a bit hard for me. Initially, I had said GSP, just because it is still kind of weird that he fought George St. Pierre. Like, if you go back to 2012 or 2010 and you said, hey, there's going to be a pay-per-view, pretty big pay-per-view headline by Michael Bisbing versus George St. Pierre,

you would just kind of stare at somebody and not really understand what they're talking about because those guys were just, never linked like that was just never even a matchup that anybody thought about for the entirety of their careers then all of a sudden it happens uh and hey get that payday man i'm glad it happened uh but for me actually i settled on the chale son and rematch that like 20 people saw and i was one of those 20 people were the submission the submission grappling one yeah so if you guys if you guys remember that there was a very bizarre thing there was a very bizarre thing there was a very

event that happened in Phoenix in 2016. It was called your fight. You are capital fight. And I had never heard of the promotion before. It was on some weird streaming thing that I'd never heard of before. I was in person for it. And it was this weird mixed match event where like Michael was going to go against Chale in a grappling match.

And then I think Roy Jones Jr. was there. He was going to just box some rando and beat up some rando. Ray Mysterio was. was going to do a wrestling match with somebody. They had like a musical performance by, oh, God, who was this rapper? It was this white rapper who was just a clown. I can't remember who it was. I can't believe this name's escaped me.

But it was riffraff. It was like this musical performance from riffraff in the middle of it. And then like, you've set this up that now I'm regretting not have been there. You're trying to poo on it. I'm like, dude, I should have been there for this. This is one of them. Sean has heaters like this. I love a carnival.

It's an incredible story. It is one of the most incredible things I've ever been a part of. And like the MMA portion of this main event for like weeks is being promoted in Arizona as Dan Severn versus Ken Shamrock. When their combined ages had to be 120 at that point. And then the actual match we got for the MMA main event was the legendary Shannon Rich versus some guy named Maverick Harvey. It was a great name. That is a great name.

But I just remember being here for this circus and the the Bisbing Chale thing was the first thing to go. And afterwards, again, there's like a hundred people or less in this weird arena that's very empty. And Mike just comes and sits with us by the media because there was nobody really else there. And he's just getting drunk like right behind us, kind of just like lambasting the rest of this as it's unfolding in front of him.

Like he got his paycheck. Him and Chale didn't really try very hard. They just grappled to a draw and then got their paychecks and Mike's just sitting there getting drunk behind us. It was hilarious. It was absolutely hilarious. Dude. Did you write something coming out of this?

Yeah. I think I just write it. I think I was still young in my career maybe. So I like wrote just like a recap of it or something. If I was there now, I would have. You would have went crazy. I would feasted on this. Oh, I love that stuff, man.

Yeah, that is unbelievable. Well, that is. Man, that's a great one. That's an incredible. one and now the Jed has set the table for his. I feel like mine's just going to be a bunch of BS. So I'm just going to, I'll throw it out there. But you guys remind me of the context of this because I honestly don't remember. And I looked at this too late to like kind of research this again. But the Jason Mayhem Miller situation where he like coaches opposite, I remember watching that and all that.

But then the, you know, getting in there and fighting in a very non-competitive fight, that seemed to me like the weirdest thing, even when it was happening because it was like, why? It was like there was no real, there was no real, there was no real feel of a good reason as to what was why this was happening. But to me

that still, even looking at his career now, I'm like, oh yeah, God, that weird episode when, you know, like they went through this. To me, that was the strange one. It was kind of out of left field and didn't make sense. Yeah. But I don't really truly remember the context. Was it just that they wanted two

combustible personalities. Is that what the situation was? I don't really remember anymore. My recollection is that this was getting Miller into the UFC. Because before this, he was, he had been a dream. He was a strike force. He fought for the strike force title. And then he went to dream.

And then, yeah, he was like a big name at the time. He bowed him in Nashville, not, not, you know, all that stuff was happening. Not too long before that, you know, it was like. but yeah and yeah he was just a big name and he was one of the few kind of stars outside the USC at that point and I think they just wanted to put

like you said two combustible personalities in there the idea of putting mayhem on TV seemed like a good one I don't remember a single thing I remember not a single thing from that season of the Ultimate Fighter except Tony Ferguson

was that his season I don't know. I don't remember. Yes, it was. The legend. Wow. The legend. Oh, and the John Dodson.

And T.J. Delishaw. That's right. No, actually went to the finale. That was the finale in the feather weights. I think that was when they were introduced to. That's the one finale. It was working at ESPN that they actually, hey, do you want to go cover this finale when Dillishaw fought Dodson?

Wasn't that the fight? And it was in the small room with the parole or whatever. Only time I've ever been to one of those finale's, man. Pretty crazy. It was, it was Dillish. Shot Dotson and then the legend Diego Brandau versus Denna. The legend.

Oh, man. I forgot that that fight happened. I still remember Michael Kiesa was sitting between Misha Tate and Ronda Rousey at that event right behind Press Row. That is a tough spot to sit. Trying to get them both a little happy. It was the weirdest thing.

But at this point, they weren't feuding. Of course he did. It was hilarious. I was like, look at this guy. You know, he's trying to... No, not Michael Kios. I'm sorry. What's that dude's name?

McKinsey. Remember that guy? you know McKinsey Cody McKinsey The other legend That's who it was It was Cody McKinsey He was like he thought he was

I don't know what he thought he was doing that night man But he was feeling no pain And he was trying to get everybody down On his level there you know what I mean It was interesting Jed when we do the When we do episode 250 of Dame they were good And we do the Cody McKinsey episode

I desperately want to be on that You're in Locking the McKinsey team for two hours Oh my God There's so much. Super, super fast note on that event, because it's so funny the way we look at these in retrospect.

Of the four finalists of that tough season, Dillishaw, Dodson, Brandau, Bermudas, everyone thought Brando would be the best out of all four of those. Like, and it wasn't even a conversation.

It was just like, oh yeah, Diego Brando of those four is going to have the best career. It's a weird sport. It is weird. Well, I'm excited because you didn't get either of the two things I had here. One of them I didn't think you would.

The other I kind of thought, I will throw as a throwaway. Apparently, Michael Bisping kickbox Cyril Diabati, which is a super weird fact. Really? Cieldiabati is like a good kickbox. So yeah, I found that out when I was doing some research. You know, C.L. Diabate ended up making a run in MMA and in the UFC.

But long before that, one of the few kickboxing fights he had, apparently Bisping kicked him. But as I said, I took a page out of your book, Sean. and, you know, your story for, I don't even remember the dude's name, the guy who killed, Tommy Gouge for Carlos Condit, it made me want to dive deep into the early fights and see if I could dig up a gym. And do either of you know a single thing about a man named David, Dave Radford, the guy who Bisping won the Cage Warriors Light Heavyweight title by defeating? because there is a phenomenal piece of writing by Steve Bunce for boxing news online about Dave Radford and the time he once fought Roberto Duran in a boxing match because Dave Radford was just like a British tough guy who didn't care and his day job was a plasterer

and it's a story about how Duran had a guy fallout. Radford had some boxing matches. None of like didn't have like this accomplished career, but he had some. They ran into him like out on the street at 2.30 in the morning while he was having a brew. And he was just like, yeah, I'll fight him. So he boxes Roberto Duran and then strikes up a friendship with Roberto Duran after the fact. Because Roberto Duran was like impressed that the dude can, you know, could take a shot real well. All this stuff that by the way, so we're clear.

that fight happened in 1997, and Bisping then beat Dave Radford to win the Cage Warriors' Light Heavyweight title in 2005. So Dave Radford, just a British tough dude plasterer, just say, yeah, I'll scrap, I don't care. You got to love the guys like that who just found their ways into strange fights and were always willing.

And they have the greatest stories of all. That dude should write a book, man. You know what I mean? Like, if you've done all of that, And there's probably a million things we don't even know about. But guys like that, they have a story to tell. Dude, that dude has so many stories to tell. And it's when you read, if you go find the article and read about it, it's hilarious to listen or to read and be like, yeah, Duran and I kind of became buddies.

We joked around a lot. He's a dirty fighter. But, you know, it was smart of him to be a dirty fighter because he knew that he's Roberto Duran. The ref's not going to call him for doing any shady stuff to me is an unbelievable. piece of information I found. And it made me really happy to know that the degrees of separation between Michael Bisping and Roberto Duran

is one. It is one degree of separation between two. That is correct. That's again, why that era is so special to me. It's just like these type of randos that just find their way in this, it's so good. Yeah, dude, just the best. At Desjardin, we speak business.

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Gambling Problem Call connects Ontario 1866531-260. 19 and over. Physically present in Ontario. Eligibility restrictions apply. See Golden Nuggett Casino.com for details. Please play responsibly. All right, moving on, just a few categories left to discuss before we close her down. My favorite category, the Fador Sweeter of Absolute Victory Award. Now, this should be fairly self-evident to anybody who is a deep-cut MMA fan, but if you could have one piece of memorabilia from Michael Bisping's career, a.k.a. Fador's Sweater of Absolute Victory, Quentin Rampaign-Jackson's Chain, something like that. What would it be? I'm going to lead off, because I think that

There's one very obvious answer, and then there's the answer that I actually mean in my heart. The obvious answer is the prosthetic eye, right? Like, I feel like that's... Oh, I didn't even think of that. I feel like that's... You're a missing human being, Jed, come on. Or in poor taste. But, like, you wouldn't like that on the mantle of the, like, if there's...

No, that would be a story great. That's a conversational piece right of that, you know. Is the UFC... Yeah. If they ever built a real Hall of Fame that you could go to, which would be a dope idea, like, They would for sure be like, hey, Bispin, can we get one of your eyes to just put here and kind of, as it tells a story. Have you guys ever seen, have you guys ever seen Mike just pop his eye out? He did it one time.

He did it for me one time. I had no idea that he, I don't think he'd ever publicly talked about it yet. And he was like, he just popped it out right in front of me. I was like, no way. And he's got, you know, the cloud behind it. It was bizarre as hell, man. One of the strangest moments. Super weird.

So that's, I think that's the most obvious. one, though from the sounds that you guys did not think of that one. The one I would actually like to have for my, my day to day life. Because I wouldn't use, I wouldn't use the prosthetic eye on the day to day, but the bisping, the jacket he wore when he was sauced up at the GSP pre-fight presser, I was just a, oh, that's a good cut. It's a good jacket. Now you just ran his word to it.

I would for sure love that jacket. All right. That's a good jacket. And it's also a funny moment in history when he was. just obviously enjoyed some beverages and just came stumbling onto the stage while GSP's being real proper and trying to pitch this one. No, that's, I'm not trying to have Michael Bisping fight me. Aren't you?

Careful, Mindenhall. Yeah. She seems like a lovely lady. No, she's awesome. They have made several wonderful children together. Yes, very nice. You know what? I feel like I got to tread a little light.

on this category because you know, every since you know, Alexander, like, ever since Alex kind of ran around in Condit's jockstrap and got banished from the show, man, I feel like I have to like I have to like

be careful of what I say. They took it to strange places. That was a bizarre one to kick off this kind of category. It told me informing things that maybe I didn't understand. It really was. You know, You guys have mentioned the Haynes fight. I would probably take his gloves from that just because it started the whole thing, you know? It started his whole career. I think that that would be a cool thing to be like, this is the one that got him across. I do believe that that was the fight that people paid attention to him and put him on the course that he was on, changed his life, all those things. So if you're going to take a piece of memorabilia that you wanted to put on your wall, like in some, you know, glass encasement, whatever, maybe those gloves would be the one just given how everything played out for him over the years.

Fair, Sean. What about you? That's a good one. I struggled on this a bit, but then once I kind of landed on where I landed, I felt pretty good about it. To me, there's my favorite photo of Mike is a photo that was taken during the Anderson Silva fight. And it's right after the knee. And he's, I think maybe it's between rounds or something. And he's sort of like bending down his hands on his knees.

And he's just gashed open. Like his face is just blasted open. And he's just leaking blood. And it's like just one of the most. visceral MMA photos I've ever seen where he's just crimson mass coated in blood and then obviously comes out and wins that round that fourth round.

To me, I think it would be really cool to have the bloody British flag that he had after that fight. Oh, that's a good one. Where he wins that fight, he's getting, you know, all this praise from the crowd. It's a real moment and he's just sort of soaking it all in and he's holding this flag and it's just covered in blood

from just this incredible wound, just gaping wound on his head. But it's like he did it. He actually did it. He did this thing that no one thought he could. And he proved everybody wrong for the first time of what was going to be multiple provings of wrongs. And so I would just like to have that flag.

I think that'd be cool to hang up. And then you point people would be like, oh, why do you have a British flag? And you kind of talk the story. Sean, you were certain to, I'm starting to see your blood fetish because didn't you last time with the condit, you wanted some bloody shorts. Now you got a bloody flag. As long as it's got blood on it. That's your memorabilia right there.

You know, proof about what it was about. I'm a sicko. What do you want for me? We're all sickos. This lends itself into exposing yourself as a sicko when you're talking about taking memorabilia from a fighter. You know what I mean? You ever see the dudes who pull out their mouthpiece and just throw it into the audience when they're done? You pay attention to the guy who's trying to grab that because you want to stay away from that guy, you know?

Somebody caught that. I know. I see people do it all the time. Oh, it's nasty. Chuck, were you the one that got like pegged with the mouthpiece once? I feel like somebody's told me that story. You? No, it wasn't mean. They've landed in the vicinity, though.

I've seen that happen twice where it's just beyond media row, but it wasn't, it didn't hit me or anything. All right. Next category. The international player haters ball. This is based on a phenomenal Shepel show skit. And we're just, just going to do a little nitpicking. We've actually covered a lot of things that I would talk about here on this one already. But I'll just fire them out very quickly.

and you guys can add anything that I may have forgot. All right. One, this man lost to Dan Henderson twice, so let's just make sure we respect that. It is all of his best highlights, uh, save for the Rockhold K.O. Are him getting K.O.?

Like the highlight reel of fights he's in is him losing, which is a tough scene. He didn't have a top 10 win until Brian Stan. That was 17 fights into his UFC career, some absurd number like that. And that's obviously, a little harder to judge because they weren't the same level of rankings. But at the time when I wrote the article on him, that was the thing that I was like, who was the first like good fighter he beat?

And the answer is Brian Stan, however deep into his career. I push back on that actually. I feel like that's that's rewriting history in a way. A lot of his early guys were like those borderline top 10 guys, like where they'd be like an eight, nine, 10 range. Like that was kind of where he was floating for a long time. Like you look at the Libans and the Kangs and the Akiyama. and all those guys. So this is very far from official, but when I did, when I did,

went back and looked at it, I used shirt dog rankings because they had rankings forever. And Stan was his first win over a guy they had the top 10 at the time he fought him. Not again, that's by no means

some sort of official bandit, but it speaks to the big knock on his career that he was the penultimate fighter. And then my last one, I didn't realize it. I mean, I remembered it sort of, esoterically, but as I went back and watched more fights, he was just, he had to be the most

annoying human being in the world to fist fight because as much as he, you know, doesn't like like big cheating and PEDs, man wasn't afraid to throw an illegal knee, to have some eye pokes out, to constantly complain to the refs to grab the cage. I mean, hell, we've danced around it. The reason Anderson Silva almost knocked him out in one is because he, as he, as he, spit out his mouth guard and then pointed to John McCarthy. He was like, my mouth guard's out. Anderson kept fighting and he didn't. And so Anderson need him in the face.

Like he, when you go back and watch, I get why guys like Josh Haynes might still have a bit of salt with him because he was chatty and just the worst kind of fighter in that respect. He would be a guy that would be awful to be across the cage from. Well, also because he would let you know. Like he, yeah. He was breaking dudes. like legitimately breaking do. Several of the guys who I spoke to for that feature were like he broke me in a way that I didn't know I could be broken.

And it's just like, that's a skill. Like, that's a real skill. Oh, it's absolutely a skill. And it's like a very different way. It's,

you know, not being like an over the top canon, but just needling at you in like the most annoying fashion. Death by a thousand cuts, yeah. When he, it really drove home to me. When he fought,

I went back and watched a GSP fight. GSP scores a takedown in the first round. And I'm, this is not high. hyperbolic. Immediately, Michael Bissping looks at John McCarthy for a stand-up. I think it was John McCarthy, maybe as Herb Dean. He like, GSP has him against the fence, takes him down, is working on position, and instantaneously to his butt hitting the floor, Bisping puts his hand behind him and looks up and is like, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? McCarthy,

stand me up. Like, it's just that kind of just jabbing at you in the most annoying way. He wasn't above it. Did I leave anything out, though? Oh, not above it. And that's not a critique. Look, that is a way to fight. If you're going to fight six hours of octagon time or wherever the hell it is, you better be a little dirty. I mean, and also he's a student of the game. You know, he knows that being a little dirty pays off.

You know what I mean? Like, you should cheat a little bit. If you're not doing that, you're not maximizing your fool what you're allowed to do ultimately in a fight. So I know what you're saying, though. I agree with everything you said. But the only other one I might add, which I know was a point of emphasis during his title run, was the guys he was facing during his title run. The non-contend. It wasn't the guys that people were like, you know, the Romero's or the Whitakers and guys like that, right?

It was Dan Henderson who had no business even getting the fight. You know what I mean? Like, it's guys like that who he's fighting. And then so you could make a point that he was avoiding the top talent. at that point. But like for a lifetime achievement and kind of what it meant and where the UFC is and kind of getting out of the Maritogics and looking at it from big picture,

I had no real problem with the way his career was playing, especially his one eye all the thing. I had no real problem with it. But I know some people criticized him in the moment about that, you know? Yeah, that's, I mean, that's just how this goes. Sean, do you, are you

just all roses and sunshine for Michael Bispying? No, I mean, the only in terms of nitpicks, I struggled, the one I did come up with was what Chuck just mentioned, where there was a real top four around the middleweight scene at that point, right? It was Whitaker. It was Rockhold. It was Wydeman and it was Romero.

I'm sorry, Whitaker Romero, Jacqueray. We haven't mentioned Jacqueray. And all those guys. And like he didn't, he didn't fight any of them. But like also at the time, I was in the same boat of like, I don't actually want to see this. Like, why are we doing this? Like, let this guy do what he's trying to do right here. And I will reiterate he did beat Dan Henderson the second time.

Oh, here we go. He's won against Dan Anderson. I mean, he did officially. And I strongly argued for the Hindo fight because I just thought it was fun, even though it was obviously dumb. And it was fun. I don't regret it at all. Though now, looking back at Yo-O. Romero's career,

and maybe have some regrets. It literally felt like a lifetime achievement award. Like you win unlikely champion. Suddenly you've thrown a monkey wrench into a division that nobody expect you to be a champion. And suddenly you're that guy. All right. well, let's do that one that's a big fight that we, everybody's been talking about. We've been putting this guy on our, on our highlights,

forever getting knocked out by Dan Henderson. Let's give him the chance to rectify. I had no problem with it, man. I was like, let him do it. Like, Dan Henderson, come on. That's a great rematch. So, anyway. If you put it in context, like, the way Hendog actually got that fight,

he fought on 199 too, same night. Elvote Hector Lombard's face off. Oh, boy. Like, that's, that Henderson knockout of Lombard is. like low key one of the most brutal things you will ever see in your life it's just like a a spinning elbow to the temple like it is gross how bad that is and he gets another he gets he gets he gets some follow-up shots too like it is real he's nasty with the follow-up shots man it's like he i was here for it that's hilarious i can't wait to do dan henderson's career on here one

day oh yeah that man had a very interesting career um all right cool we are going to move on to the Alternate Universe Award. And this is just what's the biggest what if of Michael Bisping's career. And oddly, I think this would have been a much more full category had he not ended up winning the belt and doing all the things we've said. Because for me, I didn't have a lot of them. Not a ton of things jumped out at me. You know, what if he didn't lose the eye?

That seems almost too obvious. but the two big ones for me were what if Herb Dean had called off the Silva fight after he got kind of knocked out at the end of the third round? I don't think Herb Dean should have, though it wouldn't have been unreasonable for him to. But I think you alluded to it earlier, Sean, if that fight is not in London, that might not happen. And if that happens, then what is, what does his career look like? And then the other one for me is, I think, the biggest what if that probably he would attach to his career. What if he didn't fight a bunch of dudes who use drugs?

Because for one of the most outspoken guys against PED usage in MMA has been forever. Specifically, the Vitor thing always a big point of contention for him for obvious reasons. but he has, by my count, he fought seven dudes who at one point in their career failed drug tests, and that's not including Van der Le Silva, who I don't think ever actually technically failed a drug test, but did get a lifetime ban, I believe, if I'm not remembering that incorrectly, because he refused to test for drugs at one point. So that's eight fighters. I mean, could be.

We can't make assumptions, but I'm saying that's eight fighters and, like, six of his nine losses are directly tied to people who are directly tied to to illegal substance use. So I think that certainly had he never won the career, won the belt. That one would have been a big plaguing question for him. But I still think it's worth kind of thinking about what his career would have looked like if that wasn't the case because he could have been a champion way earlier, frankly. Like that was in the realm of possibility. It's crazy, man. Strange. Yeah. Go for it, Chuck. Oh, I was just going to say it's great.

That was my big what-if as well, honestly. It was like just kind of every other what-if that he had, like the what-ifs played out in his career in such unique ways that you can't really come up with one because he did win that tie. Like you mentioned, like his story came out in such a unique way, mostly to his favor, you know, and it feeds into his legacy and all that. So the what-ifs are a little bit weird. But I was saying, what if the judges have given him that fight against Chal Son in

2012 out in Chicago, you know, it, there's a lot of domino effects that took place, but the biggest thing was everybody wanted to see that rematch between Sonan and, uh, and Silva, right? Like, this was the very first, I, you know, that, that rivalry became the biggest thing at that moment in time. And it's just, you look at it from all perspectives that I'm not sure how that plays out, you know, like if, uh, if, uh, if Bisping suddenly has won now five in a row, like, where's he at? Is he getting the title shot? Um, is he getting a title shot? Um, is he getting a quicker, like does he even end up in that Bitor Belfort smash fest down in Brazil, you know, like the next year?

All those things. The whole thing just changes just from a judge's standpoint. And then do what happens with Jail Sondon at that point, right? So I feel like that that was one of those crossroad glass, you know, sliding glass doors thing that you're like, judges scorecard go another way. It could have been a whole different UFC the way it would look after that. I mean, yeah, it's honestly, his career could be worse. Like it could because maybe he doesn't win the belt than ever. Maybe he's just the dude who finally got to fight Anderson Silva and Anderson's not a little diminished.

Like it's it is a huge sliding glass doors moment. And it's it worked out really. His career worked out I think oddly in an awful way, but maybe the best possible way if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That and yeah. I mean a lot of those were sort of my what if I came up with will as well.

I think the drug one. is the biggest one, because really you'll look at a period of time that I think most people had this last chapter not happened would have considered his prime, right? This like sort of in between moment in his career, maybe between 2008 to 2013. His only losses during those time are Hendo, Vandale, Vitor. And what do all those guys have in common, right? It's, it's, Van der Leigh never tested positive, just so we're quick. Okay, anybody who watched Vandelaide for most of his career knows what was going on like let's be real with each other here and if i was mike at that point in time especially after the vtore one and you're dealing with these eye issues and those are

the four that you've suffered i would be feeling some type of way and it would be really hard for me to reconcile that and like not just go full blast public going against the like publicly just like how is this happening so much in this sport right now um so for him to actually just contain himself to a certain degree during that period all the credit to the man because I probably wouldn't have been able to. The only other what ifs that I came up with were sort of the other side of it, right? Because we talked about the luck aspect of it. And there was a lot of luck at the end of it where say that, because before the Anderson

booking, Mike was supposed to fight or Mike was supposed to fight Musassi in London. And like, can you imagine if Anderson doesn't. Yeah, can you imagine just Anderson doesn't say, hey, I want to fight that. And so Mike just fights Musassian. And maybe that's the end of the run. And then the Weidman thing where like maybe Chris Weidman doesn't get her. What if Chris Wyman doesn't get hurt? And Mike just ends up fighting Yoel Romero for like a number one contender spot on that same card or something like that.

Or like even what if he's not able to fool the commission in like, hey, I have two working eyes. No, you don't. You clearly don't. Everybody knows you don't. And you're done. And he's just forced to retire at that point. And maybe the Vitor fight is his last fight at that point. And it's just that's the way he goes out.

Like there are so many different. levels of where this could have gone so badly wrong and it would just be the ultimate tragedy and it just didn't happen. For sure. All right. We have just a couple categories left and we're going to try and wrap this up pretty quickly. The Sean Ferris Award for the actor who should play them in a movie.

This name, we're still workshopping it, but I decided I wanted to name this award after Sean Ferris because he plays Jake Tyler in the cinematic masterpiece that is never back down, arguably the greatest mixed martial arts. film of all time. This is a nice view into your mind, Jed. This is really enlightening to me. I'm seeing a lot of... Never Backdown is a hysterically funny piece of cinema that I will never stop being in

love with. All right. This was the actual most difficult category for me. The only person I could come up with who I think would be a good fit, I need a young, young Ewan McGregor, you know, around Star Wars, his initial time in Star Wars, that time seems seems to be the fit because I can't think of anybody current day who they're all either a little older you know like Tom Hardy is is big and physical and British but like I just young you and McGregor's where I settled on but I'm not married to this so somebody pitch me somebody

better and I'm I'm willing to change my team let me ask you something does John Kittina have any acting chops John Kittna is not a name I was expecting that is a deep cut John Kitton. Oh, when Bispin was coming up, I always used to think, dude, he's like John Kittner, man. It was weird as hell. But that, like, I know John is not actually. I just Googled John Kittna. And that is money. That was that's, I mean, it's bizarre, right?

Like, they look like they could be legit, be like brothers or something. But in terms of actors, especially the early days, Biscping when he's his head. The shade, yeah. This is actually a tough one because Mike has a pretty sharp look. Like he is, his eyebrows are just sharp and, um, I was looking at, you know, you're thinking of guys like, uh, Channing Tatum or somebody who might be able to kind of morph their face a little to, to look like that, uh, somebody like that. But of course, I think he's been, like a fighter before, right? Like, um, so you probably wouldn't want to be redundant. But like, maybe a guy like,

uh, Wes Bentley, the cat who was in, um, American Beauty, like he was the kid in that one. He's been in a bunch of other stuff since then. maybe somebody like that could, you know what I mean, with the makeup and effects? Oh, Wes Gremlin is a really good choice. I had to Google him because I only know this actor by face. He's kind of, he's one of those guys.

You'd recognize him if you look at him. But he might be able to kind of pull that off. I think that that could be a pretty decent choice. Still, 43. Yeah, yeah. You know, these actors, man. They keep them. They're vegans.

You know what I mean? And we have technology. We've got technology. these days. Scorsesee turned De Niro into like a 30-year-old. We could do something with the 40-year-old guys. Now we're talking. Sean, do you have anybody? So I struggled a bit, and I feel like I landed on two that I feel pretty okay about. One in particular, I think I feel pretty good about. My first was Ray Stevenson. If you guys have watched Ray Stevenson, no Reeves Stevenson. He's kind of a character actor.

You've seen him in probably a lot of stuff. He was in Rome, if you remember Rome, the HBO series. Kind of has that tough guy look. He feels like he could be a British tough to me. I like that. I feel like he's supposed to be Bispings' dad in whatever the movie we're casting is. I'm talking like a younger, I guess, like a younger version of it. I was going to say it's like 58 years old or something, but that's all right. He could do, yeah.

But the one I settled on that I actually kind of really like and now wish that we had the technology to make this happen. Give me like a young Clive Owen. So Clive Owen was absolutely someone in my list. and then I just decided that I think I liked E. And McGregor better. But I told one, he's a better actor than Ewan McGregor for sure. And I think he brings a little more physicality to the role, which you probably need for, especially for young British street tough Michael Bisping. So I like that pick a lot.

Not bad. Not bad. All right. Just a couple more. Cole Conrad, maybe my favorite award, actually. The Cole Conrad Career Change Award. Does off. Cole Conrad's name.

I love it. It's named after the hero Cole Conrad, who was a Bellator champion and just quit MMA to go trade milk because why not? As one does. What would Michael Bisping be doing if he were not a fighter? This was the easiest category for me because, I mean, I could be wrong, but the man, before he dive deep into the fighting thing, he was trying to be a DJ, DJ Mikey B. He still spins the records every now and again. He's not half bad, if we're being honest. And if he had focused all of his time and energy on DJing in the British club scene instead of kickboxing and karate and all the stuff he did, I feel like, you know, he could have gotten up there.

Maybe not be like a dead mouse or something, but he could have made a solid living as a DJ. So that's where I'm settling. Imagine him spinning right now at Ibitha. You know what I mean? I can see that. Maybe he made the bad career choice because that sounds pretty okay to me. Yeah, that sounds fine. Get the pacifiers of the baggy pants.

That's a tough one. You mentioned that he spent some time in the clink. So you hope that he wouldn't end up like in prison or something. Like some of these guys like it's funny because they find fighting and it really does save them on some level, gives them a focus, all that stuff. You'd hope that he wouldn't have ended up something like that. He's a fast talker and a good seller. I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up being a salesman. some kind, like, where he's, like, able to move product.

You know what I mean? Because to me, he's, like, he's very enthusiastic. He's got a lot of knowledge. He's very smart. I could see him doing something like that. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, that's a tough question because he is such a dedicated fighter. You know what I mean?

So to imagine him. Yeah, he's the quintessential fighter. So, so, like, imagine him doing something else. I just feel like would never jibe with him. You know what I mean? Yeah, I kind of went in the same. vein as Chuck here about just the gift of gab and in ways to utilize that. I was trying to think of different ways he could have figured out how to use that. And I came up with two. I mean,

I think he could have been a tremendous 90s era pro wrestling manager in the WWE. Just like always of an excellent. Really going hard with the English accent and just really making everyone hate him and probably getting subtitled. I think that would have been fantastic. Also, though, I think he could have probably just been a really, incredible like Hollywood agent like an R.A. Gold desk, brash, Hollywood agent who's hanging up on people and swearing people out on calls and conference calls and just like putting the fear I got into his employees. Like I think there's a world where that could have worked.

I like that one. I like both of those. I like both of those a lot. All right. Phil Baroni, I'm the Best Eva Award. This is what is the career peak, the highest of high. where were they at their absolute best?

I think the answer for this one is obvious. It's UFC 199. It's when he knocked out Luke Rockhold and became the UFC middleweight champion. I'm willing to hear other arguments, but I think that one is the clear winner here. Roan men were crying all over the world. To me, it's that it's. Yeah. It's the two-sum you could maybe do of like Silva and Rockhold, but otherwise it's the World

Rockhold. Yeah. The only other thing I even considered was the sauced up. conference against GSP because that was Michael Bisping in rare form about to get the biggest fight of his life. And GSP just flabbergasted. You just can't believe this is happening. Cannot believe that he's coming out of retirement for this is one of my favorite things

to watch. Really, Bissing did a tremendous job on the mic in so many occasions for us. And this is it. We've come to the final category of the evening of the podcast of Michael Bisping's career. It doesn't have a catchy or fun or interesting name because I have yet to think of one. But it is just, what is the legacy of Michael Bisping? What is when you think of him, kind of where does he fall in the pantheon? What are your final thoughts on the career of Michael the Count Bisping?

Chuck, let's start with you. I think, like I mentioned, that he's a quintessential fight. I think he is a fighter through and through. Like, he's like the symbolic idea of a fighter. He is the literal definition of a fighter. I just think that that's his legacy. He's a guy who has the passion. And I think that he's got the passion to not only understand how to sell a fight, right?

Like how to get into people's skin in a fight, how to manipulate the psychological space before a fight, how to carry a country on his back going into a fight, how to make TV ratings and executives pay attention to him. And then how to go in there and get it done against guys that could try to exploit his weaknesses for the longest time. You know, like there were guys who thought they knew exactly how to beat him. mentioned earlier that some people wanted to fight him because he was the biggest name that was

beatable. I felt like that was kind of his career. People saw him that way, but they could engage the size of the fight in him even as he was going on. Like even as he had, you know, one eye and as winning a title and he's defending that title, all those things. He just, to me, in the end, is the quintessential fighter of all fighters. Like the guy has a spirit that just won't be broken. And I think that that showed in the, like, you can take all of his adversities and stack them together too and look at this and him overcoming because you always hear that old cliche, like it's not getting knocked down, man, it's whether you get back up. He's a living example of all of that. He's a living example of all that. So to me, his legacy is

just passion for fighting and a, you know, a literal fighter. Like, that's what he is. He's the example. If you wanted to say, what is a fighter, you would point to Michael Bisping on all of those levels. Sean, what about you? Yeah, I echo a lot of what Chuck said and just a lot of what we've said throughout this pod. I mean, at this point, he is, as I said at the beginning, the definition of perseverance, right? Like, he is one of the few fighters where I remember where I was for so many early moments of his career. Even before I was doing this as a job, just the ultimate fighter, the Matt Hamill robbery. I remember being there for that and just the whole room being so upset that Mike won, the Hendo-K-O,

in just all of these moments that, as we said, should have drowned him. Like, he should have been infamous for all of these low lights. And he isn't, like, they're just footnotes at this point. Like, people don't even remember most of this stuff because he is so, he is so determined. He is a true champion. Like, he was a guy who just never gave up. He, again, I think he's probably the fighter who can most convinced people to change their opinions of him throughout his career just by the way he presented himself in the way that he just never stopped.

Like he really ultimately, to me, is the story of a man who just was so determined to achieve this dream. And he actually did it. He did it against innumerable odds. And he did it when it didn't make sense to do it. But he actually did it. And I guess last thing for me, I would default to something. I remember Chale telling me and it just stuck with me for a long time where above everything else, Mike just tried hard. Right?

Like Mike tried to win at all times. He never conceded. He wasn't looking for one big punch. He wasn't looking for one big highlight. He was just going to try. He was going to be there in every single moment in the fight, in every single position with every ounce of himself that he had. And like Chuck said, that's a fighter. That's what a fighter does.

And Mike is the ultimate fighter. Nice. He's no longer the pen ultimate fighter. He is the ultimate fighter. Yeah, he graduated. Because of how that worked out. Yeah, I mean, I think that that's, I'm with you on all this guy. It is, to me, he is a very interesting career in that his career is more than the sum of its parts.

And I don't think that's true for most fighters, you know. He, we talked all about it, this whole pot. He's overcome so much adversity. He has changed his narrative in such a compelling way that we don't really see. And even you said, I think at the very beginning, you said that it's become this sort of trite thing, this conceive, believe, achieve. he said that mocking Luke Rockhold. Like Luke Rockhold was doing his Luke Rockhold thing before the rematch. And Bisbee was just like, that sounds like a motivational poster, you lose her.

Like he said that mocking him. And in the end, that's actually like the best, like that is the main lesson of his career is that he he did those things. He believed when nobody else did. And as a result, he was able to persevere through obstacles. nobody would have given him a chance to do. And nobody did. And so as a result, you know, he's one of the biggest overachievers in him in history, if not the biggest. He has one of if not the biggest upsets in UFC history.

He is one of the best villains in the history of the sport and simultaneously one of the best heroes, which doesn't make any sense at all. He just all of these things just stack up to make a singularly, like a very unique career. and, you know, one of the most interesting careers I think we've ever had in the sport. So, you know, and that is, it's like we said, that all comes down almost exclusively to him just persevering, to him just saying, screw it, I'm going to keep going long after the time that almost anybody else would have quit. And that's why we're still talking about him today.

And that's why, frankly, he'll probably be with us and with the sport for another 20 years. So full credit to you, Michael Bisping. you, damn, you were good. Gentlemen, thank you. Hey, that's the way to cover up earlier mistakes, man. He won't, he's not going to dress you down as bad now when he hears that.

Oh, you shouldn't. It's all the celebration of the man. Now I want to celebrate you two, gentlemen. You came, you came on this very long, very exciting journey with me, and I appreciate it so much. Chuck, tell the people where they can find you, where they can read your beautiful words. the greatest words in the world, if they're not Sean's, where your own podcast is, let the folks know. I'm in Connecticut.

Ah, come on. You can find me on the ringer. We're on Spotify. We have the ringer MMA show. Usually twice a week. It's kind of up in the air. Like, we'll do a Thursday show and then a Saturday after big events. Yeah, after big events, we'll do like a post-show.

So very fun community. Really enjoy it. Your boy, Ariel Hoani is out with me and Pizzi Carroll, and we have a pretty good time. So it's the ringer imitation. Really, that's about it. I have a site, the myth.com, M.I.T.H. where I need to write more in. But so each time I plug that, I'm like, you know, I should really be writing a little more in there.

But yes, you can find my stuff there too. You don't want to give them too much. No, not too much. You don't want to give the world too much. You don't let out, man. This is the age of content. So I go the other way. I make them want content.

Keep them asking. for more. Sean, you are my boss at MMAfighting.com. You're either the greatest or the second greatest writer in the world. Is there anything else that you feel compelled to say? No, those are very kind of words. And again, it was super fun to be back on this and super fun to reconnect with my old pal over here. So I appreciate you setting us up. Been too long. Who, by the way, behind the scenes, we started this call off with not a hey, Sean, how are you doing? Sean, it's good to talk to you again. It was just like, how about those Phoenix Suns?

That was great. What's it is? Yeah, see? Sorry about that, man. It's the first of 1920s gangster. Yeah, see? Oh, next year. It's gone entirely off the rails.

Gentlemen, I appreciate your sticking with me through this. I appreciate y'all listening. I don't. We will be back in two weeks with our next episode. Not a hundred percent sure who it's going to. to be on or else I'd tease that here, but thank you for listening to Damn, they were good, and we will see you next time. The Vox Media Podcast Network.

Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first, there, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes.