MMA Fighting - Rankings Show: Did Alex Pereira Beating Israel Adesanya Permanently Break The Pound-For-Pound List? | Plus Dominick Reyes And MMA's Cruelest Reversals of Fortune

Episode Date: November 16, 2022

Alex Pereira is not only the undisputed UFC middleweight champion after beating Israel Adesanya, he is now a top-10 Pound-for-Pound fighter. But does that make sense? How can Pereira - with just eight MMA fights to his name - be higher ranked than longstanding luminaries like Charles Oliveira, Jiri Prochazka, Max Holloway, Patricio Pitbull, and Demetrious Johnson? The MMA Fightings Rankings Show is back to analyze the aftermath of UFC 281, which featured two dramatic title changes and some harsh reality checks for a litany of fighters. Host Alexander K. Lee attempts to guide the esteemed panel of Steven Marrocco, Damon Martin, and Jed Meshew as they figure out what to do with the Pound-for-Pound list after yet another stunning championship upset, ponder the fate of Dominick Reyes while running through a lengthy list of the cruelest reversals of fortune in MMA history, and then give their best guesses for a trio of Over/Under questions, including what to expect from Pereira's and Zhang Weili's championship runs. Follow Shaun Al-Shatti @ShaunAlShatti Follow Alexander K. Lee @alexanderklee Follow Steven Marrocco @MMAFightingSM Follow Damon Martin @DamonMartin Follow Jed Meshew @JedKMeshew Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Support for this show comes from the Audible original The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian

in this follow-up to the audible original blockbuster, the downloaded. It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded two, Ghosts in the Machine, available now only from Audible. The Vox Media Podcast Network. Hello. Hello, hello.

Welcome everyone to the MMA Fighting Rankings Podcast. That's right. if it seems like we're coming at you pretty early compared to the last show, it's true. It's only been three weeks since we recorded our last podcast for the rankings. The cycle has been short. I think we kind of have a short cycle again coming up, just three UFC shows in between, some one as well, some Bellator. So there'll be a lot more to talk about on the next show.

But we have plenty to talk about on this show as well, even though there's only three really, really big events, the one that just passed UFC 281. give us a hell of a shake-up in the rankings. Before I get to that, let me introduce the esteemed panel of MMA fighting rankings voters that are joining me today. First up, Mr. Damon Martin, say hello, Damon. Hello, I'm ready. I missed the last rankings podcast,

so I feel like I have a lot of fire to spit right now. I should have said the returning, Damon Martin, most like the returning Dominic Reyes, to hopefully have a much better day than down. We'll get to that later. Is that too soon? Wow. Is that too soon?

Rough. A man who is here to, he primarily, I mean, he's here for a variety of reasons, his expertise, his brilliance, his good looks, which I'm sorry you guys cannot appreciate in the podcast network. But also to present aside in a pound-for-pound discussion we will have, the great Stephen Morocco. Thank you for that intro. Also, I will not fight any of you. I just want to let you know I'm not here to fight.

I'm here to ask questions merely. Yes, people might know, might realize. I'm just asking questions. I love that. Just asking questions here. Listen, I was going to give him a second, but that was the voice, of course, of the fight, the fighter himself, the man with the spiciest of spicy takes, Jedmishu. I'm so excited to hear the questions that Stephen has for us,

because, you know, nobody's ever started a fight by just asking questions. So I actually don't even think we can fight this. No, no, I hope not. The last like four months have just ruined our rankings. And our friendships a little bit. I'll be honest with you. But listen, regular listeners may have noticed that one, Mr. Sheen Al Shaddy is not with us.

He's on a little break right now. He's taking some daddy time. So everyone please wish weishin some good luck in the adventures of parenthood. But he's the potster between the two of us. us. You know, Shaheen and I normally host the show together. He's the potster. I try to bring things together. So hopefully this will be a show of positivity. But looking at the schedule I've kind of put up for this show, I may have created too many opportunities for conflict or like just downer conversations. I don't know. Hopefully not. Before we get to our discussions,

let's just talk about some of the biggest moves that happened in this ranking cycle, which was from, I think I wrote this down somewhere. October 23rd to November 12th, there's a couple of UFC shows in there and of course UFC two fight nights i just say and of course ufc 281 so uh one of our our biggest movers uh amanda lamoche moved up four spots after beating the beleaguered marina hadriguez who just you know could not cannot get a title shot to save her life and it was only a matter of time i think until she ran to a another contender and and lost a big win for lamoche so she enters the top five spot that marina had been holding on to for some time 23 year old aaron blanchfield completely annihilating.

I don't know if that's harsh to say. Molly McCann. A lot of people predicted this. I was in this camp of like, I think Molly's going to give her a tougher fight than expected. She did not. She did not.

It was one-sided, a submission win for Aaron Blanchfield. She moves up three spots. She's in the top 10, guys. 23 years old, she's in the top 10. At light heavyweight, we had some moves. Ryan Span going from not ranked to 12th. Bumping Dominic Reyes from the 10 spots.

to out of the rankings entirely. Dominic Reyes is now afar. If he had been holding on to that spot, despite not competing for over 550 days, he is now no longer ranked. And, oh, something else also happened, 281 in the main event, not sure if you guys saw.

Alex Pereira, I still cannot believe this happened, even though it was a possibility that we had all entertained, beats Israel Adesania in the fifth round via TKO, again beating him by knockout in the later range.

rounds of a fight. He moves up to the number one spot, of course, from number seven, all the way from number seven at middleweight. And on our pound for pound chart, not ranked at all, to number seven, to number one at middleweight and jumps from unranked to number seven at pound for pound and knocking Izzy down to, I believe, the eight spot won behind him. So that's kind of crazy. Izzy was number two. Before we get to discussion, any- He's like the fourth dude in the last four months. I know the exact same thing You guys don't have any comments

Any of that movement Do you think anyone moved too much Moved too high? Didn't move enough No Honestly okay When you kind of run through it At all

Feels right I get you know Maybe you could quibble a little Here there But it's It's insane I had Israel This and as the number

Two pound for pound fighter In the world Behind Islam Makachev And I will transparently say That some of that Is me Just standing my boy after he won the belt, right?

But it would kind of be insane to put the head at it's the number two pound for pound fire because he wins one fight. Like that's he has two really relevant wins. It would be nuts. So, but at the same time, you can't discount beating Izzy and all the things Izzy did. So him settling in around seven kind of feels okay.

And it's, it's just been a really, really crazy end of this year because Izzy's had this. Leon Edwards, we had the same discussion about him a couple of months ago. So is Lamagachev very similar as well, skyrocketing up despite not being much of a presence. Like we're seeing a lot of this.

And it's hard to feel, even if I maybe disagree with some of the stuff that's happened over, you know, this cycle, it's hard to feel really confident that any of this is like wrong or right. It's just like, who the hell knows? It's been a wacky year, man. Yeah, we're going to have to get into a little, today a little.

So this is our first major topic here for you listeners keeping track at home. We're going to have to get into a little bit of a broader discussion of like, what does pound for pound mean? We don't have to have an answer because if people check on the site, the pound for pound rankings article is already up that went up Monday. We don't really, we set some criteria as far as rules go, like, but not what we don't say what our panelists should necessarily do, what they should think when deciding, you know, how pound for pound is that.

It's very complicated. So we'll have to get into that today. But just to show how weird, you said, like, Jedda kind of feels right that Padera ended up at seven. But like when I phrase it this way, it's going to sound really wrong. Here's some of the names that he is now, he jumped over. Demetrius Johnson, Patricio Pitbull, Max Holloway, Yeri Prohachka, and he's directly one spot above Charles Olivera. So according to our list, our expert list, we are saying pound for pound right now, Alex Padreta, is not a better, but his, more successful and accomplished fighter at this moment, at this moment, than those, some of those names.

I don't know. Damon, what did we do here? I mean, there's no right or wrong answer here, to be honest. I mean, pound for pound is ultimately a subjective list. And, you know, some people say it's, you know, if pound for pound means like how, you know, who is the most skilled, talented fighter in the world based on if there were no weight classes. Other people like myself believe it's based on, you know, wins and accomplishments. And the weird thing when you look at Alex Pereira is that, he isn't as accomplished as a lot of those names you just mentioned, but he does have the one definitive win over Israel at Asanya, and you can't ignore that. Israel is and has been one of the most dominant champions in the UFC five-time defending champion, top five, whatever it was,

top three, pound for pound. It may have been number one at one point. You beat that guy and you beat him definitively. You knock him out. You finish him in the fifth round. You can't not put him higher. Now, you know, I didn't put him, I think I put him in my list. I think I did have him at seven.

And then, you know, I think is where I settled that because it's hard, right? Like, I can't put him over more established champions. Even Leon Edwards, you can say, oh, yeah, well, Leon Edwards has the one winner over Kamar. But at least he had like a 10-fight win streak in the UFC. You could argue all day about the level of competition. But he had a legitimate 10-fight win streak in the UFC. Same thing with Makachev, 10-fight, 11-fight win streak.

That still matters. Even if it's not against the top three guys in the world, it still matters. and then you go out there and just assassinate Charles Olivera, you jump pretty high in those rankings. Same thing with Pereira. Like he doesn't, but the thing with Pereira, as I said, like he doesn't have that overall resume.

So he has that one big win and not a lot else. So it's kind of like you can't put him in the top five, but you can't ignore the win over Adasania. David, I'm glad you brought up Machachev and Edwards because we talked about on a previous episode. People were so mad about Leon Edwards. I believe there was phrases thrown out on social,

media directed us, using the words, idiot, like sort of, you know, casuals, clown show. I saw a clown emoji

used pretty aggressively in response to our, to our, but. That is shocking. It's, listen, I should have,

language and content warning, but, but it's, I understand, I understand why people sort of feel strongly about this. And of course, you know,

the ones who are upset about it are kind of asking how can Leon Edwards? I mean, Dam, explain guys like Leon Islam at least have like huge long winning streaks they've beaten other UFC competition nine 10 wins in a row they have a body of work a very strong UFC body of work but paredes isn't bad either I mean when you look at it a Bruno Silva I consider to be a top 25 I would

say middleweight Sean Shirkland was top 15 was ranked in the top 15 I think top 10 and now he knocks off the champ so it's it's quality maybe not the quantity that people are looking for but again with Edwards a lot of people are saying he how can he go above Usman we were just saying Usman's the number one, number one, number two, number three pound for pound guy. Look at all the champions he's beaten. Now Edwards just just beat him and that's it. You know, so wouldn't it be fair to still keep Edwards behind Usman or in this case, keep Hareda behind Adisania? Now, Stephen, like I mentioned before, I brought you on.

You and one of our other panelists have kept Hareda below Adisina. So what is the thinking there as far as not just putting him over for, just because the one win. Sure. I think it's because I'm still smarting from our Jose Aldo, damn they were good podcast recording, in which I felt a really high degree of vitriol about my choice to put Jose in the pound for pound, you know, his place basically in the pantheon of feather weights. And the vitriol came from, at least as I understood, it came from the fact that if you look at his entire resume

and what he's done, you quickly come to the conclusion that he was the best ever at 1.45. So I said at the time that I thought that he couldn't, that was debatable given his losses. But it made me think about how I look at pound for pound. And it made me think that history should be an important factor in this whole conversation. It shouldn't just be a current list, a list of, you know, who, a current list of wins and losses the same as it is in the divisional rankings. But it should take into account the strength of the schedule and the career. And for me, I just, I don't see that Behera just has that strength of schedule.

I mean, I don't think that's, that's debatable, that he just, he doesn't have the resume yet to overcome, in my mind, he doesn't have the resume to overcome Israel. And listening to Damon, it strikes me that this is the issue with people in the same division on the same list that may have fought each other and may have wins and losses over each other because in the in the divisional list I would say there is no way that um Israel Adasania can be above Alex Bahara anymore but on the pound for pound list I would say there's a very good argument for that because if you look at what uh, uh, Adasanya's done and that's, you know, I think it was five title defenses, six title defenses. He'll, he'll say six if you conclude the interim unification about

Sure. He also says he was defending those shots by staring at the ground with his hands down. So maybe we can't quite take him at his word for some of this. Oh, spicy. Spicy takes. Anyways, that's, that was my thinking. What do you? Jed, does that work for you?

I did see, Jed, I saw you nodding. Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's an entirely reasonable way to approach it. And honestly, maybe a better one. Because this was something I really struggled, not in this iteration, because at this point I already sort of just have, I'm just sort of going on past precedent, but when this first happened with Leon,

that was a thing that I was really trying to weigh out because some of it with Leon was, we probably should have had him. I probably should have had him ranked beforehand because of the resume of the strength schedule. And I had him, if I had him in pound for pound, it was like 20, it was very low. And so then I was just trying to reconcile that.

And, you know, to peel the curtain back a little bit, We're under kind of a time crunch for getting some of these updates in. And so I didn't have a lifetime to sit there and parse which way I would rather handle this. Because I also didn't spend time proactively thinking, well, what if Leon wins? It was like, well, Leon's not going to win. So I don't have to worry about this. I'll just keep slotting Usman in. And then Leon kicks him in the face.

And so I think Stevens approach is arguably better. it feels a little more kind of what you're going for because my view on pound for pound has largely been I would like it to be a snapshot of who the best fighters in the world are at that time based on accomplishment and the divisional rankings can sort themselves out much simpler

like Stephen was alluding to who beat who it's pretty clear who gets the top spot etc and then I take some leeway there and I recognize no one else does, and that's okay. I do want pound for pound in my head, you just be like, man, if you went back in time and talked to somebody, I'm like, hey, who are the best fighters in the world right now in 2022? Volcanovsky's going to be one of the first three names mentioned, you know?

Israel Odissania would have been one of the first three names mentioned until the Phaedor loss. And that's sort of the general guiding principle. And so I think that's the reason of what might be better. Like I just ultimately went with putting Leon. over Usman and then once I did that then it was I'm going to put Islam over Olivera and then it was like well now I'm going to do this one

and it's sort of just built on itself and I don't know if that's right or wrong like it might be super wrong I fully I fully admit that I kind of fall into that like the danger of like when one guy beats another guy I feel like he needs to be ranked ahead of him

that I fully I fully admit, because I do the divisional rankings that way, and I kind of fall into that pattern for pound for pound as well, because it's so difficult when you have such a definitive win, when Makachev goes out there and just steamrolls Charles Olivera and chokes him on the second round, that's, that is Makachev's biggest win by a, by a mile, and it doesn't negate that Charles Olivera, you know, took out Dustin Pori, took out Michael Chandler, took out Justin Gaichy. So, you know, in theory, Charles Olivera has the better overall resume over the last couple years. But Islam Makachin, he was a monster and he went out there and steamrolled him in two

inside two rounds. So it's kind of hard to ignore that. I kind of think like, I don't know like the way Steven's describing it and he's not certainly not wrong. It's making me rethink things a little bit. But it's kind of like college football. Like when Clemson got absolutely shalacked by Notre Dame, they dropped, they dropped quite a few spots in the rankings. Because they were frauds the whole time. They were, they were. But Notre Dame didn't suddenly become the number four ranked team in the in the country. You know what I mean? Like they were. got, they got back in the top 25, but they were not suddenly better. So it's, I guess that's kind of the approach I see you're taking, and I don't disagree with

it. It's just hard when you got the eye test of the fights themselves, because yes, like, yes, Israel was up three rounds to one, but he still got knocked out. You can't ignore the knockout. It wasn't like it was a blowout. You know, it was a shutout. He was getting, you know, he was getting, you know, 30. It wasn't like a, it wasn't like a, you know, 10, eight rounds.

And, you know, it was a, it was a, you know, a good performance, but not like this, you know, blowout. And then he got knocked out. And just like with Machachab choking out. Levera or Edwards down three rounds to one and knocking out Usman, the end result is what matters most. And that, you know, it's hard to ignore that. So it's kind of a weird one.

Like, there's no right or wrong answer here. Yeah. Here's a- I'm dying to say this. Please. Here's another complicating factor. All title runs are not created equal. And you see a guy like Pahara come in because of stuff that totally didn't take place in the

UFC, you see him have a much different path to the time. No, by her. Dana said, Dana said that the UFC doesn't play those games. They're very serious organization. No free rides. Right. And I believe that wholeheartedly. This is a commercial industry. You know, this is sports entertainment here. So we are trying to, in a sense, I feel like measure apples to oranges in a way, because you have a guy like Islam whose style engenders a much longer road to the title against opposition that doesn't have the strength of schedule, that doesn't have the rankings, that doesn't have the cloud essentially. He needs to beat the people that have that clout, have that title to get into a better position in the pound for pound rig. It's not, it's not exactly fair, is it?

Because, you know, there's, there's, there's, there's a bunch of different, there's a couple different paths and we may judge them based on those paths. Stephen, there was, there was two mistakes there, not only that you question the word of the great Dana White, but also that you use the word fair, when talking about MMA, fair. Next, you're going to say someone deserves something. thing. Again, these are words. I'm also saying sports entertainment, you know, and that's, yeah. Well, that's, no, that's accurate. That's accurate. That is accurate. That is what the weird. The really hard part about this also is, because Pereira is such a, is such a weird

case because in a way, like you look at him, and like he may end up being Adasanya's boogeyman. Like, that may be his role in the sport. Like, he may be a dominant middleweight champion. We don't know. Right. No. Right. He might be middleweight boogeyman. Well, here's what I'm saying, but like, he may end up going out and just beating Adasania again, maybe even better. He may just have his number and he'll never, but maybe he doesn't beat Robert Whitaker. Maybe he doesn't beat Marvin Vittori. Maybe he doesn't be Derek Brunson, a guy who can wrestle and we saw him get taken down and held down for a round by Israel out of Assania.

Who's to say, Hamza Tcha Myev. I mean, he's talking about coming up. It may be a case where Pereira's got one of the, ends up with one of the weirdest title reigns because he may go out and starch Israel in the rematch and then lose to Marvin Vittori. And then you're saying, well, Marvin Vittori lost twice to Israel. It's going to be a mess. I'm telling you.

It could end up being a big. Marvin Vittori. It could have a bigger mess. I'm just telling you. You bring up an excellent point. I do want to table some of that for later. We will have a little bit more. We'll come back to Mr. Pareda later.

But one thing you guys have all kind of made me think about is it is so similar to the Uzman Edwards thing because Uzman, again, up three to one in the cars. Izzy was out three to one in the car. It's getting knocked out in fifth round. And just by. people like this is where one of the one of the issues the pound for pound is is how much do you weigh interpretation of result versus interpretation of performance because you can you can certainly like wins and losses as as Stephen kind of said like you know they're not all created equal reins aren't all

create equal quality opposition so just by looking at like a Wikipedia entry or tap balls your sure dog your database of choice you can kind of say oh this is how strong this person's uh rain was and how big their wins were and that's fine you can do that but if you watch again if you watched the Usman Edwards fight. If you watch the Padeta-Adisanya fight, you know, like, you could really convince yourself, like, I think Usman is a better mixed martial artist than Leon Edwards. I think Israel Adesnia is a better mixed martial artist than Alex Panetta. I have, I have, if anything, I almost have more evidence that they are better than the guy who beat them. But like Damon said, it's 25 minutes. That, the knockout sequence counts just

as much as the other, you know, 20, 22, 23 minutes before that. So this is where with pound for pound, there's just no definitive answer. It is impossible to say something. And I'm not going to move on yet. I feel like you guys still have more to say. But I will bring up when Juliana Pena, I had to go back and look at this. When Juliana Pena, Pena, being a man of Nunes, we did not all at, same kind of thing. We did not all automatically put Pena up of Nunes on Pound for Pound.

Though actually not I'm looking at, I think it's almost the opposite. I think some of us, I don't know, I don't know how I justified this, maybe because I'd seen Pena lose to other UFC opposition. I did not put Pena above Nunez on Pound for Pound. This is incredible. So I'm now, I don't know what I'm staying for anymore. I think there were some, I think there were some personal feelings involved with Julieta Pena, to be frank.

It's a lot easier. It's a lot easier to be like, I'm just not going to rank her very highly. We're all people, you know, and we tend to, people tend to, you know, support people they like. And some of us, your bias is sneak in there. And it's also, it really do. He currently has Islam

Machia of his best battle fighting right in the world. Right. To all other evidence, you know, just blinders on. You look at Pena. And again, we talk about the Pena thing like compared to Pereira. Pereira is

four in the UFC with two three knockouts, two defensive knockouts over top 10 guys. Pena, not to just continue knocking on her, but the reality is that she had a, she had a one-fight win-street going into the nunez fight and we've seen pain you get beat numerous times in the ufc and get tapped out you know she got tapped out by jermaine durandami

she got tapped out by valentina chukchenko and again no shame in those losses but i think that's what hangs so high over her versus perera who you know doesn't have any blemishes yet like he doesn't have anything yeah in our minds in our minds he can be a boat could be anything so I feel like this is a good segue into how this works divisionally as well, because, for instance, with Reyes, he's a guy who had a very steep incline on the front end. And in my mind, you would give him a lot of credit for that. He would stick around longer than the average person, average fighter, had he not had that experience. but at the same like some people like the third loss

he was gone right away whereas as a general rule I would tend to keep him around a little bit longer based on the strength of schedule yeah and so that's another interesting that's another interesting thing when we think about like how this how all this stuff moves

you know pound for pound is one thing but divisionally you know it's it's it's it seems a little bit more clear you beat the guy you you surpass him. But what happens when you start going down? Like what happens when you start losing or whatever? Does it shift immediately or do you factor in strength of schedule? Yeah, and that's a great point because as we said, I mean, look, I said, I said Israel

at disney drops to eight from two. What was he at two? Let me see that. Sorry, guys. He was, where did we have him? Oh, that was the last one. I think he was number two. I think he was number two.

Because Islam was number three. That's right. He was number two, falls to number eight. And yet, of course, in the divisional rankings, only falls to number two. He just falls one spot in his own divisional rankings. But pound for pound, just this crazy plummet. His resume does not protect him in pound per pound, at least again, not according to the way to the way most of our, I think six of our eight panelists voted.

So this has been a very screwed up year for pound for pound. I think that's fair to say, even, again, even if you want to extend back to all the way back to Pena's win over, like pound for pound has always been volatile. I mean, there was that stretch where you had whatever, you know, George St. Pierre, Anderson Silva, Fador, Malinenko, kind of like dominating and Jose Aldo was in there. And if there was some stability, I just felt like you didn't have this kind of craziness happen. But that is certainly not the case now. And 281 gave us so much chaos. I will say any other final thoughts, gentlemen, before we move on.

Because Stephen kind of gave us a good segue, but go ahead, Jim. No, I just, I don't think that there's any wrong way to have done this. if I didn't think you might kill me if I were to entirely reconfigure my rankings another time. As a can you wait a month? Can you wait until 2023? Can you wait till 2020?

I might factor that in as approaching here. But to Stephen's point on the divisional thing, I don't know if this is part of our segue in or not. It's just I have always viewed the divisional as your accomplishments are great, but I do want to see you win. Like I don't, even if you're only losing to top five guys,

you're also not beating anybody and that I don't want to hold you, I don't want to let you coast on an accomplishment from three years ago because that's, I cut Dominic Gray as before this fight. He was already out of my rankings. And it's, it was like,

yeah, he hasn't won a fight since 2019. It's three years without a victory. It's hard for me to put somebody in three years without a victory because I haven't seen them win. It doesn't matter if they fought Alex Folken Knovsky three times and couldn't beat him like Max. Like it's you got to get W somehow and that's how I've always treated it.

I don't say that that's like the only way to go about it. And you can kind of do however you want here. But I will say that it's it's absolutely irresponsible not to have France and your pound for pound rankings at all. And I just want to note that yet again for another month. This is not an airing of grievances. I'm not picking the fight. I'm just saying.

non-aray agreements. I'm just saying Francis and Ghana, who is our number four ranked pound for pound fighter, and it's very disrespectful to that man, and I'm not here for it. One of our panelists will just say, who is not one of us for, an unnamed panelists,

a rogue panelists, you might say, refuses to rank anyone, I think, 205 or higher. If I'm not, I believe that. No,

there's a 205 are in there. There's a 205 or in there. Is it eerie? Oh, really? They have one, 205. And it's RDR. But RDR also competes.

It also competes at 1. 225 and 205. Let's not get into that discussion anyway. You guys, you and Stephen, you and Stephen, no, guys, no, guys, please. We cannot get locked down. This is ridiculous.

Let's call him up right now. No, no. Stephen, you and Jed have both given an excellent segue into the next bit. I just want to say first that the last thing about Pareda, as high as four on our panelist balance, as low, as low as 15. So all over the place, all over the place, and landed right in the middle at seven. So, yeah, as high as four.

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But yes, we've mentioned Mr. Reyes. We've mentioned the, you know, how it's a little bit easier to stick around. in your division if you've built up a strong resume. And Dominic Reyes was, as I said, number 10 entering UFC 281 this past weekend. So people know the story about Dominic. We can go over it a little bit. And it's funny, Jed, you mentioned like his last win. The last time he beat a light heavyweight was Volka and Uzdemar, that same year that he beat

Chris Wyman split decision. But his last win was against essentially a light heavyweight Chris Wyatman, which never should have happened. Yeah, they're going to study Dominic Reyes' career in like... Well, we're going to do it now. I think we have to do it a little bit now. Of course, the fight with John... UFC 247, the fight with John Jones,

super close fight. I have no problem of you scored for Jones. I scored for Reyes. Obviously, several people did. I called it a robbery. It's one of the few fights. I've called a robbery over the last few years. Gets another shot at the UFC title.

Vacant this time with Jan Blahovic. Just does not get the deal done. Yon is just a better fighter. Year of Phrashka, brutal spinning elbow. 560 days off, guys. Comes back at UFC 281. and maybe the most brutal, I think, of all three of all three of those knockout losses, just completely has his lights turned out in 80 seconds by Ryan Span.

And this was enough for, I don't say, I don't know, all of us or most of us to take him out of the rankings. I can't remember when I took him out this month or last month. But very, listen, a very strong resume coming up, OSP, Volkan's in there. And then again, the close fight with Jones, but he is gone now. first before we get to the next real topic i don't do you guys think that's fair do you think it's fair that we completely gave him the booted him the booted him last time it's it's just one even even i will stipulate that i think stephen's approach is fine saying that you know let's credit him for the rise absolutely sure do it with the benefit of hindsight and frankly even at the time

we all sort of just look at Reyes' career very rose-colored because he should have beaten John Jones. He did not officially win that fight. And even at the time, him getting a title shot was not like, hell yeah, Dominic Ray was like, well, he knocked out Chris Wydeno's middleweight. And he won a splitting over Volcano Oostomere, who also has a very weird career that's difficult to place if he's good or not. and then he beat Ovin St. Prue, who was a good win at the time, certainly. And Jared Cattoneer, who's a middleweight? Like, it was a very weird run that even got him there. And to me, looking back on it, certainly now, and even at the time, it's like, well,

the only way this makes sense is if you were just implicitly saying he beat John Jones. And then the argument of him holding a spot for a while I can at least understand. because based on in cage performance, you know, based on the official results like you were pointing to, AK, he did not merit holding on as long as he did without getting some wins, even though his losses are to former champ, former champ, former champ, and now Ryan's ban. I think it's totally fine to boot him at this point because in the same way we kick people if they haven't fought in 18 months, I need a win within two years. I just have to have a win within two years. And that's my question. Should we have a new official criteria that you have to win within a certain time frame to stay in the rankings?

Like should it not only be activity, should it be wins as well? I'm okay. I'm actually okay with this, but I do want one counter-stipulation to it. That cannot apply to women's Bannon Way because we cannot feel 15 women for that way class. It would be down to a top-time chance we can find. That's fair. That's fair. That's well put.

Yeah, you can't have a base. You can't have it based on like just getting a win. But I'll admit, I 100% wore rose-colored glasses with Dominic Gray as coming off to John Jones fight because I scored him winning that fight. I thought he won. I don't think he got screwed necessarily, but I thought he won. And when you go out there and even have that kind of a fight with the fighter I consider to be the greatest mixed martial artist in history, that counts for something. So that got him a pretty high ranking. and that kept him there.

Now, what kept him there also beyond that was that, let's be honest, light heavyweight is pretty terrible. It's not a great division. It's not a deep division. So it's not like there were like a ton of guys banging on the door to take Dominic Reyes's spot. Okay? I mean, it's not like this division is so incredibly deep that there's just all these guys who are clamoring for his number seven spot or whatever.

He goes out and gets smoked by Jan Blahovic. Again, no shame in that. Wasn't really in that fight. Yon beat him pretty definitively. him out in the second round, okay. Okay, okay, it's the hangover from the Jones fight to disappointment of that fight. And he goes on, he actually has a great fight with Yuri Barashki. He was winning big parts of that fight.

Had him mounted, had, you know, a knockdown, maybe a slight knockout. You know, Yuri woke back up again and ended up knocking him out. But again, when you, to quote the great Herm Edwards, who I heard on ESPN earlier say this, and I had to do a double take, when I listened to my eye test, and that's literally what he said, I listened to my eye test. You know, that fight wasn't bad. He didn't do a terrible job in that fight, but he ultimately still got knocked out.

And then getting knocked cold by Ryan Span after being out for, you know, 500 some odd days, at that point, you just can't, you can't back up the spot because Ryan Span wasn't ranked. He's now lost to an unranked fighter and got knocked cold in 80 seconds. That to me is the nail in the proverbial coffin for him. And that's why I dropped him completely out of my rankings. and, you know, considering how bad light heavyweight is, he could easily work his way back in there. But, you know, I mean, the reality is he got knocked cold

by a guy who wasn't ranked in 80 seconds, a guy who got worked by Anthony Smith and his only other really big ranked fight. And yeah, I just, at that point, like I said, it's not just about who you're fighting and losing, but you're losing badly. You're getting knocked out by Bojovic. You're getting knocked out by Pohaski.

Now you got knocked out cold by Span. And time off. It all adds up to disaster. for Dominic Reyes. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I, I, I, I, I, we, you know, the main thing I want to get into here is, and it's hard to define this is another thing that kind of needs criteria is where, where does Dominic Reyes rank? If we're talking about sort of the, here I am the Prince of Positivity, it's such a

downer topic, some of the, uh, you know, most brutal reversals of fortune and I, and not a negative, I say negative versus a fortune. And we've certainly seen reversal fortune go the other way. Michael Bisming might be like a great example of that. But let's just say people who kind of, I want to emphasize not as to people who are champions. I think because obviously, you know, we could talk about BJ Penn all day. We could talk about Frankie Edgar who just retired on another horrible knockout. I'm really looking at people who kind of like got close specifically to a UFC title.

Though again, I'm, you guys can volunteer whichever names you want. In my mind, I was thinking like more cases like Reyes, like guys who got close. close, so, so close, and then may never get that close again and have fallen so far from even that level of prestige. So, Damon, go ahead. If you want to go first, I don't know if there's any names you think of that were that are a little more dramatic, a little more harsh than what has happened to Mr. Dominic Reyes just past couple years.

One name I pulled, and this, he wasn't super ranked. I just think of like prospect, a guy who had all the buzz around him in the world and then came crashing down in a hard, hard way. How many of you remember Brandon Thatch? Brandon Thatch? I thought you were going a whole different way, but I loved it, but also Brandon Thatch. Yeah, Brandon Thatch came in like a ball of fire, two huge wins. He looked like he was a huge welterway.

He looked like he was going to be a monster. And he just got absolutely lamb-based in his last four fights in the UFC before he got. I just remember, because I was at his fight with, I think it was Benson Henderson. And in Colorado, and everyone's like, this is like, this is his coronation. He's going to beat a former champion. he's going to go out there and he's going to make waves and he got beat and he never won again and I just always remember that label

like he was supposed to be the next big thing and then it came crashing down around him in a hurry yeah that Benson Henderson lost was very revealing but at the time is this was Benson had already won like this is a welterweight fight but Benson had already won the lightweight title right he was just kind of going up to do something right it was just to have take a fight yeah okay

there's near the end of Benson he he was already had lost the lightweight title and was just spinning his weird pretty much granted that's just like twice his three times his size I might say if you'll go watch this fight he is enormous granted compared to Benson Henderson and that was a very revealing loss I'll throw out one

more example more recently and I kind of feel bad a little bit bad about this only because like he really This whole saying that's going to make everyone feel bad Damon don't worry about it. He really like he was a guy years ago when he was in Strike Force I would said this is one of the most underrated guys in the world but honestly we got to be honest about this Jorge Mazadol

I mean Jorge Mazadol was always a quality decent you know fighter good fighter i don't think he got enough respect but when you think about it like he beat darren till you know good win he starts ben askron who let's be honest i mean come on now like ben askron everyone you know i think most people like ben askran he's funny he's an engaging dude um but i mean he was never you know he was never that dude when he got to the u by the time he got to the ufc he was probably wins that fight like seven out of ten times but by the time he got to the ufc ben was not that guy and he was not that guy and he was not that guy and more like we missed out on prime ben ascran because he was in bellator at the time um he beats

ben ascran and you know and he beats day diaz again like you know fun wins you know but then when you get up to the upper level then you find out what happens and he gets just you know he gets beat by usman on short notice he gets starched by usman in the rematch uh you know i mean that's a guy like it's like it felt like he was destined to be a star but not destined to be a champion he kind of went reversal of fortune both ways though he kind of went like oh well Well, this is, you know, Jordanman George, as Colby Cumberton so poetically loves to say, they become this megastar. And then now I don't know if this guy ever beats a name opponent again.

We'll see. Stephen, what are you guys? Are anyone that's really sticking in your craws, like someone that's like, oh, they were so close and then and now so, so, so far? The one that stuck out to me, and I almost don't think it's fair because there wasn't a whole lot of, that most of the body of work was outside. UFC but Gilbert Melendez. Yep, big one. Because he was

kind of like the people doing pound for pound rankings and lightweight rankings in general because he was just doing so well outside the U.S. for so long and kind of occupies like a similar position like today that Reiner de Ritterwood or you know guys that are

that have done great work outside the UFC and almost are I think people feel obligated to put them in there, given what they've done. But he just, he fell off a cliff from, from Jump Street. That was actually another, a scorecard. I think it was a split call. Yeah, it was a split call for Henderson. Henderson, the scorecard still, still turning for him at that point in his career.

And man, he just fell off a cliff, especially, you know, after, after Diego Sanchez's fight of the year candidate. you know, he just kind of fell off a clip. I see a lot of other flash in the pans. You know, Will Brooks is one that I thought of. My favorite one ever, so could you, knocks out a big nog, or little nog, I should say,

and then just drops off of a clip. And Arona. Don't forget the Andorona one. Annihilates them. Yeah. Annihilates them. Like plus three thousand underdog. Yeah.

I forgot about one more, Stephen. I went to this because you're old school. I'd be one to absolutely breaks my heart to say this. And I'm saying it, and I'm saying it with an apology because he's one of my all-time favorite guys. Mirko Krocop, man, I mean, he fell off a gigantic cliff when he got to the UFC. I mean, he just went. I mean, that was a precipitous drop from where I thought he was going to come in and just demolish UFC heavyweights.

And then he got Gonzagaed, and it never turned around for him again after that. Oh, no, it did. Obviously, you didn't pay attention when he went back to Japan. man. Is he on a win streak? He did great things. Is he on a win streak right now? He's on a huge win streak.

Right. He's retired because of medical issues. Yeah, yeah. But he went out on the street. He went on top of the game. He went on top of the game, Jed. Not to say the quiet part out loud, but when he left Usada testing,

he went on a tremendous win streak to end his career. Roy Nelson, Mo LaWall. He got Gonzales. Zaga back in the UFC. How a great finish his career. Speaking of Usada, Eric Silva. What about Eric Silva?

Oh, Eric Silva's a great one in that. Remember when he was just like the world beater? Everyone thought that he was like the next big guy. And then he just fucking fell off of a cliff. Yeah. He also killed. There's a lot of weird missed opportunities on his resume. He never put together that dominant run.

There's guys that he should have like destroyed. There's like a DQ loss in there, which shouldn't have been a DQ. There's a weird DQ loss in there. Holy crap. Go ahead, Jed. Okay, Jay, go ahead. I'm not going to say. I wanted to.

I'm a million of these, but... Okay, please. I don't want to stop you. ProCop is on a 10-fight win streak as of now. The longest of his MMA career. He never had a 10-fight win streak before this. He ended his career on the longest win streak of his career. One could argue, this is his real peak, if anything.

So, Damon, I'm sorry, invalid selection. Inval of the top, baby. He's the reverse reversal of fortune, the positive kind. But I love, Stephen, I love the Gilbert Melinda shout. Absolutely. I think top three, oh, number, top three, top three in the list of names I have here. Oh. Because, no, just because people, it's true, people really don't know.

The only thing that I would take him off is like he won a major title with another promotion, but, but there's definitely still like he was, you know, when all the Strike Force guys came over until we saw like, you know, Luke Rockhold and a lot of them and Rhonda Rousey, people around like, oh crap, oh, Jacques-A, like, oh, wow, these Strike Force guys are actually like really good and right in the level of UFC guys. Gilbert was supposed to be part of that. And he just, and again, one could argue he did. Benson-Henderson fight was so close.

It is so, so such, it is such a close fight. And that's what makes it so similar to Reyes is you can, there's, you could easily in a case, Goert Melendez should have a UFC championship, you know, belt on his, on his shelf, just like Reyes should. And then that was it. The Diego Sanchez win and then just lost, some of these losses are really brutal, too, just like one-sided, like, he didn't, he wasn't getting knocked out, but like one-sided, just wallopings.

Some of them were uncomfortably, like, one-sided near the end. And that, you know, you know, you. Yeah, that, that, to me. What was the leg kick one? What was the leg kick one? What was that? Just hobbled. Was that Barbosa?

Yeah, I think so. I think that's right. That sounds right. I feel like it happened more than once, I thought. Or was it Arnold? That's true because everyone, as soon as people found out that his leg was vulnerable, they started kicking it more. Just whack him. It was the Jeremy Stevens fight when he got.

Jeremy Stevens. It was Jeremy Stevens. Oh, yeah. Jeremy Stevens leg kicked him, yeah, into oblivion. That's that one. Also, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, sad old school guys who never quite made it in the UFC. I'll bring up Takenori Gomi is another one that made me sad.

Because that guy was a world beater when he was in pride. And then he came over to the UFC and just got absolutely starched. You'll be surprised to know that I have a huge list, considering I have a podcast, which is basically this topic of conversation. I was going to say, I don't want to turn this into a damn they were good. This is more of like a damn. This sucks for something like that. Damn what a bad end of your career.

Because we have some, I mean, lesson, we have examples of guys who did win the title and then have precipitous falls. Cody Garbrandt is in the middle of the fall right now, we think. Johnny Hendricks, of course. And two guys who, you know, their cases are a little bit, I would, I would not put them above Reyes because they at least made it to the top. They won the title. They were undisputed champions. Chris Widman. Yeah, exactly.

He won the title. He beat Anderson Silva. His high was so high. It's like, okay, it hit the fall off is, is understand. You stick around this game long enough. Again, that's why I don't bring up BJ. his highs are so high okay obviously we all know he's had

I still throw out I still throw out Rockhold I'm sorry even though he got even though he became champion his fall was incredible crazy like he lost everyone just figured out you could throw a left hook at him and he would he lost he lost to a guy

he had absolutely demolished a year earlier he lost it on 10 days notice he lost to him and then he never got back like never it broke his world it was so crazy it broke his world uh so but I'll go to more of guys that are not, what do you guys think about like

Gray Maynard? What did you put Gray Maynard on the list there? Oh. I don't remember the end of Gray's career. He did not jump to top of mind. But to me, he follows the Reyes Melendous thing where like, he was really close to being UFC champion. Well, yeah. I mean, a different referee.

You can find, you can find two other dudes in Reyes's weight class who had this exact same thing. Targo Santos and Alexander Gustafin. Gus, yeah, twice. Three times, three times. three times. Gus.

Three times. Incredibly close to beating John Jones and incredibly close to finishing Cormier and his career has been a travesty. Tiago Santos has won one fight since losing a fight. I still scored for him against John Jones, frankly. He's like one in five. He's still ranked, though. He's number 50.

Just for the record, he is number 50. I know he is still ranked. He held on to a spot. Good for you. Keep getting him checks, Tiago. He's the whole thing. He's getting that bonus check from being in the, I'm fighting global rankings.

But yeah, Gustafsin definitely jumps to mind because twice he came so close. Yeah. And his fallout just came so, like, so quick and so unexpectedly. It was such a weird drop off. And this one, this one breaks my heart to say it. And I mean, literally, like, of all the people I've mentioned, this one actually does break my heart because he's one of my, one of my favorite fighters of all time and a guy I've always loved. Carlos Condit. after the Lawler fight.

He never, I mean, he just, he. I at least understand that one, though. The years caught up to him at that point, though. It does, it does. But that one breaks my heart because I still thought he beat Robbie Lawler. And like, that's one where he won. And it's like, that was his chance to become undisputed champion. And then it just never, the years caught up to him at that point.

Like the damage caught up to him at that point. That one breaks my heart because, like, he came so close to beating GSP. Head kicked him in the third round of that fight, almost had him out, then loses. and then comes back, loses a really controversial decision to Lawler, and then just never got back there again. Thank God for interim titles, though. I had to get some Canadian content in here. Mark Hominich.

Now, Mark Hominich was not close to beating Jose Aaldo, but he at least ended that fight, like, with people going like, I want to see Mark Hominich fight again. I think Mark Hominick can contend, you know, like he wasn't, again, he wasn't close to beating Aldo. It was like a 4-0 washing up until the last round, and then he ends the round on top in Aldo's guard, kind of throwing some ground and pound and, you know, get a nice jump from the Toronto crowd.

You thought we will see more of Mark Hamanick, never want to fight again after that, gets knocked out in seven seconds by the Korean zombie in his next fight. The next fight loses a split decision to, I don't need to say. Eddie Yagen. I was going to say, Steve, we all know. We all remember Eddie Yagen, of course. According to typology, minus 520 favorite, Mark Kama. Wow.

What happened to Eddie? And then lose to Pablo Garza. then that's it and then retires. So really had this nice, you know, five minutes of glory, U.C. 129 and somehow it's just never won again. See, again, that makes sense because Hamnick had been around the block for a while. That was, those are what does it make sense. This is true.

That is clearly the peak of his career is going to be win or lose this fight and everything after. Oh, what was like the other people I have on my list, the one that immediately jumped out to me was Mercedek. because that's who I thought when Damon previously was like Brandon Thatch, I was like,

I remember watching Merosad Becht's fight and thinking the same way I do about like Hamzat Shama. I was like, if that dude doesn't hold the belt, I'll eat my hat. And then Darren Elkins pulled off the comeback of the century against him

and it broke the man. And he's just like, he never was good again. He never was good again. Like, just shocked. He did. He did win.

He did win. He did win. That's a good way. You know, had his moment too. That's a good way. But he also had some injury, huge injury problems. There's so many variables that go into this. But I think that's a good example for a guy that looked like a world beater and dropped, you know, off of a cliff pretty quickly.

Just fell off. I also put in Kovalkavich, Kaly and Kovalkavich, just because after the Ewanna fight, even though she's currently on Winstreet. I was going to say her story's not over. That's why I wrote her down, then deleted it. I said, no, her stories are over. I think her title story is over. No, it's not over. I mean, she's still, but the one that is, the one that hurts me the most and is true, is,

is, and maybe you can argue that we, we should have foreseen this, but for the late great Norafumi Kid Yamamoto, just, kid was the man. He loved kid. I loved kids so much. And then when he finally comes to the UFC, even though he's coming in off of, a bad fight with Joe Warren. It's still like, yeah, he's coming. And he fights DJ and he never, ever wins.

Like he's just, the end of his career was so sad because that dude was electric. If you were watching him fight back in Heroes and K-1. Yeah, we did, we did a sort of a look back on him after he passed. It was two years ago now. So hopefully people check that out. Special Miss Fist dedicated to Kid Yamamoto. We got a lot of names. Darren Till's in the middle of it, I think.

I think. He was supposed to beat Taran Woodley. He was favorite. I believe he was favored going to that fight. I'll have to check, but I believe he was fair. I know I had certainly picked him. I was definitely overlooking Woodley big time. Loses that fight, has one win since, the Calvin Gaslam win,

split decision. So not, and not a particularly like, it was a good competitive fight, not a fight that anyone really talks about. Other than that, knocked up by Masvedal, a competitive decision loss to Whitaker, but, I mean, scored correctly, and a submission loss to Derek Brunson,

a fight that was not particularly competitive. So is now the time for me to get on my hill of Darren Till's bad and has never been good of him? Well, Stephen mentioned this, though. In injury, I was the injuries have also played a huge part. I mean, this guy can't even get in the cage anymore. It's a huge part. It's a huge problem to be injured and bad at fighting.

It's very tough to. He is living. Tell me who he's beaten. He's living and dying. He's kind of beat Calvin Gasolm. He's living and dying on beating Cowboy Soroni. Like, that's the one way. What a boy.

He didn't win that fight. I know the judges gave a two. Three judges said he did. At the time, we all agreed that that was nonsense. And being cowboy, and I am probably a bigger Bohan village French fan than most people, because I thought he had something at the time. That ain't it, man. Like, that ain't it.

He has never beaten anybody good. He has never cleanly beaten anybody good. His best wins are all controversial or their freaking cowboys. boy man. All right. This is a whole other. I'm sorry. Did you want to chime in with something else?

I want to throw one more name out from you. When I look at his record, it didn't, it didn't go as badly as I remember. But like a guy that I legitimately felt bad for at the time was Karo Parisian. Carro was a guy. I remember he was supposed to fight. He is forgotten. Yeah, he was supposed to fight for a title. He got skipped over.

He was supposed to fight Matt Hughes. Got skipped over. Not getting a title fight. Never, never got back there again. Ended his UFC career on a loss to Dennis Hall. Alman got TKOed by Dennis Hallman in 2010. And he went on and won some fights with Bellatory. He knocked out, you know, Phil Brony.

Then again, I think, you know, have to have to fight roster over Phil Broney. Much, much sadder ending, much sadder end to that story. Oh, yeah. During all the issues with drug addiction and, you know. But that was a guy who was like. He's a very sad story. That was a guy who I, I 100% thought this is a guy who could beat Matt Hughes. Like he had, he was so, his judo was so good at the time.

and I was like, man. He pulled his groin. The wrestling versus the judo. Yeah. Yeah, I think he pulled his groin muscle and he got, he lost that fight or something. And he never, never got close to it again. Never came close to it again.

That's a sad story. Very sad story. He just didn't go on it. New idea for a jet podcast after listening to the Darren Till rant. Damn you suck. Damn you. We are. I have been on Darren Hill.

Dill sucks Hill for a very long time. And the only reason I haven't gotten to proclaim victory is because he keeps not fighting because as soon as he fights somebody and keeps losing then everyone be like yeah Darren Hill is never very good let me let me declare ahead of time if you were the president of that club can I be the vice president because I've been I've been on that hill for a pretty long time this is not the Darren Till slam podcast okay let's save it for damn you suck okay I do want to we have one more we still have one more seven to you guys so uh maybe that one can be a little bit quicker but I do want to throw two more names real quick from the from the

oh so close well one of them much close than the other Shane Carwin We don't think of him in that way because he didn't fight much after. He literally only fought once after the Brock Lesnar lost, but he almost became the UFC heavyweight champion. I mean, he was, he was ground and impound. He was an interim champion. He was an interim champion. You're right.

That's legitimate. He was an intern champion. But he almost beat Brock Lesnar. He almost like, he almost just took him out, a guy who was very adverse to being hit and he hit him hard. If it wasn't Brock Lesnar, I think he could have gotten a stoppage. Like, I feel like he got a lot.

of an opportunity to stay in that fight just because he's Brock and the idea of stopping that fight might have created a riot. I don't know. I thought I've watched that many times. I do think Brock was defending himself and challenging enough the whole time. It's impossible to kid him because his arms are eight feet wide. When he shells up, you physically can't punch his head. No, he's actually like moving.

There's like a brief moment where he's shelling up, but he's actually like moving around and like kicking his feet at, he actually is defending himself pretty much. But anyway, Shane Carwin, so close. and then has the JDS fight and that's it. And that's just done, again, injuries, age, whatever you want to call it. But that's a story that ends well because he is still working as an engineer, supporting his family, and living his life. Yes. It's a good outcome, all things considered in this business.

And I had to throw, we didn't do it. I don't think we mentioned any women's MMA names, did we? I brought Carolyn Colvin. You brought Caroline Culvic, I'm sorry. Cynthia Cavillo. I think that's one. Yeah. Yes.

I don't think, again, I just don't think, I don't know how close. She was hyped. I don't know how close she was. She'd be in the Mirsad, Beck Titch, like, Brandon Thash category. The woman I wanted to bring up, actually, and again, she's winning fights now, fine. Katzingano, I feel like a little bit, a little bit. She was really hyped going to the Ronda Rousey fight. I don't know if people thought she would win. They certainly didn't think she would lose in 14 seconds in one of the shortest title fights in UFC history. She was coming off wins over Amanda Nunes and Misha Tate and couldn't even get like, when they eventually got the title, couldn't even fight her,

way back to one of those fights. Like she finished Amanda Nunes and Misha Tate and never got another title shot. And again, not because of politics, I think she lost Julianna Pena, lose to Kettl-Bayetta. And then, again, soon enough, two fights later

is out of the UFC. Now she's beating up in Belator, which is great. If you guys can name one of them, I would be very impressed without looking at the screen that you're looking at right now. Which is great. But I did want to bring up, yeah,

of someone who came close, a woman who came close to. I'm gonna ruin your flow here again. Can I throw, I'm sorry, one more old school day. Just remember this. Heath Herring. Heath Herring was always the third best heavyweight

at every promotion he was in. He was the third best heavyweight. But no one ever thought he would win it. He was like he was, he always had great fights with Nogera, couldn't get past Nogera, couldn't get past Fador, got to the UFC, couldn't get past Nogera again, then he lost the Lesnar.

Like he was always right there. Like he was always like that. three guy like he's herring's going to make a run and then he'd run into fade or he's here's going to make a run and then he'd run to know gary he's there's going to make a run they're like here's brook like he was always right there that one kind of broke me as well because i'm like he was always one went away from being the guy and he just couldn't get that one win ever like he could never get past those guys highly respected definitely a close calls guy and he once kissed another fighter in the mouth so i'm a little embarrassed i didn't mention it but yeah he carrying

wherever you did did he kiss a fighter on the mouth oh the guy kissed him i think he got and then he he committed assault and then let's not rewrite that particular bit of he pharynx he's going to call into this show right now yeah yeah this is it's okay Keith i apologize you were the kiss not the kisser you were the assaughter not the assaulted i'm gonna text i'm gonna text someone dispute that he was assaulted i don't know go ahead i still i still text i still text with heat from time to time i'm gonna text him and copy this episode and let him call in and freak out on you guys so yeah that's please not on you guys his position listen this has been a little so that was a little sad that was a little sad that we did get to reminisce about some of the good times of some of those

fighters so let's focus on the good time say and listen to bring a full circle dominic rayus your run isn't done yet sir 32 years young your run is done buddy your run is not done no i'm not that he could become a champion again but can he still be out there winning fights you know whether in the ufc or beltor or another promotion there's still time Dominic Craig Give him a bump down and competition. I guess,

you know what? Ryan Span was the bump down in competition. I think that's what hurts. It's like he was the bump down. Dominantly is my great and powerful advice to you is in the history of this sport. The only person I can think of who

suffered like a four fight really bad losing streak and came back to any level of prominence. It's Andrei Olavski who's done it three times because he's a hero. However, there is another organization where Amari Ak-Medov is going to be fighting for a million dollars. I thought you were going to say fight circus.

Oh, no, that would be also great, but that comes later. I'm just saying that Amari Akmetov has a real chance against Robert, and Robert Wilkinson is the other guy that's fighting for a million dollars. You got to think that you at least have a shot. Aren't that the middleweight? Isn't that the PFL middleweight? That's not light heavy weight. That's middle weight. Is that middleweight?

Yeah, that's middleweight. I met off his middle weight. No, it's light heavyweight, buddy. Is it? Yeah. No. I'm like the website right now. Is it?

Oh my gosh, they got those two at light head. They're both middle weights though. That's what I'm saying, Dom. He is correct. It is the light heavy weight. Oh my gosh. It's crazy. Don, I have an opportunity.

Honestly, Dom, if you don't, maybe you don't even want to cut weight, you can go up to heavy weight and the old PFL heavyweight championship is Ante Delah Elijah versus Mateus Sheffel, those two gentlemen are fighting for $1 million. Here's, let me just throw out one suggestion real quick before we get on to another subject. Why, like, if they're going to book one more fight for Dominic Reyes, just go ahead and book Dominic Reyes against Alexander Gustafson in the saddest light-heavy fight of all time. Oh, that's a great matchup. Just book it.

Neither one of them have looked like they deserve to have much more of a chance. Put them in against each other. maybe one of them rejuvenates their career a little bit I like both suggestions Jedd listen the PFL is not the answer for everything by the way PFL is November 25th championship 4999 only on ESPN Plus pay-per-view so go ahead guys get your get your orders in now

you have a chance to pay $50 to watchman 2 shuffle fight on Ted Delajia you can't say no will they have a black Friday cell where it's like 75% off is that possible get your orders in now that's not God, what was that one, what was that one pay-per-view where that actually happened? They were, like, changing the price of it, like, up to, like, three days before the event. I can't remember what it was. Does this promotion still exist?

Probably not. No. There was a promotion that did, like, a Black Friday sale. And then, like, was it Yama pit fighting? I'm trying to think who would have been at that time frame where it could be, because, like, what org would have been doing something in. Remember when, when Shine fights tried to do pay-per-view? Remember that? That was fun.

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Okay. Focus on the focus. All right. You guys have been very generous to your time, but I want to take a little bit of more. This can be a bit quicker. Guys, there's some overrunners. There's some quick overunders.

Everybody likes overrunners, right? I only got three. We did not even mention this woman at the beginning of the show, Zhang Wei, destroying Carlos Sparza as many predicted, maybe one of the most predictable title fight

I was going to say upset, but she was favored going in in history. She proved the odds makers correct and probably most of the betters. And it's now a two-time UFC strawweight champion. Now, I think we believe Zhang Wili has all the tools to be a champion. The only problem is, of course, there is a fight out there who has two wins over her. But I think that she would win a rose rematch on how you guys feel. But I want you to factor a potential third rose fight into this. over under consecutive title defenses on this run,

not total defenses, so we're not counting her. She did defend it once against Yohanna in her first run. This is this run, consecutive tile defenses, four and a half. And I picked that number because Yuania Al-Checich holds the record with five straight in the division. So do we think that she will at least tie the record or do we think that she will fall short for whatever reasons? Again, whether you think she loses or, you know, chases Valentinas or whatever, whatever. Early retirement, I don't know. Go ahead, guys.

Stephen, Stephen, do you have any thoughts since you want to, would you want to go first? Like, pick over if I think she's going to beat the record? Yeah, no, tie. The record is five. So I went four and a half over under. So if you go over, you're saying she will at least tie. She will at least tie.

You're wanting to chase a consecutive title offense record. Given where the division is at right now, given where I think Rose is at in her career right now, I think she's got a good shot at getting there. I just think that the talent pipeline for 115 has a lot of fighters who are kind of closer to the end of their career than the beginning of their career. I think there are some exceptions here and there.

Jessica Andrage being one of them. That fight never really got started before it was over. But I would actually, I think she's got a good shot. I'm going to say over. You're going to go over. Okay, I'm also, I'm kind of with you on this one. Damon, how are you feeling? Under, just too much unpredictability with

this division. You know, I think, you know, if she does get the rematch with Jessica Andraj, I think that could easily go the other way. I think Amanda Limos has the kind of power that could potentially hurt and, you know, you catch Zhang Wiley off guard, just like she got caught off guard by the Rose Nami Unis fight the first time around. Rose is still out there. Rose just had the all-time stinker of fights, but she's still at her best, a really,

really good mixed martial artist. And I think there's a chance she could go out there and avenge that loss. And consider Sherry has two wins over. she knows how to do it. And she might have a little bit that boogeyman factor with Zhang Wei Lee. So, no, I go under. I actually thought you put the number like two

and then I might be debating. But four and a half, I just don't see it happening. There's just too many unknowns. And there is a fighter out there who has two wins over her. And it's not like Rose has passed her prime. She had a god-awful fight with Carlos Barza, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't win a third fight with Zhang Wiley-Ley-Lie. So I go under.

It's funny. So so far, we all seem to think the record is safe. Yawanna's right. That's a pretty incredible. That five straight. That was a hell of a run, right? That is a, that is one that I think is standing the test of time.

And obviously why Yohanna is still considered the, for now the 115 pound goat. Jed, where are you landing in this? Over under four and a half. Under. I feel pretty decent with it. I'm keeping track of these, by the way, guys. I am keeping track of these for a future. Okay.

So I agree for time's sake. I'll say I largely disagree with that Damon said. If you were to tell me that she was like her next two fights. or whatever will be Jessica Andraj and Rose and she wins them both, then I would take over very comfortably. In fact, if she wins those two, I would then say after that she probably

puts together like four more wins on top of those two. Because the rest of this weight class there is Limush is kind of old. And that's it. Like, Amanda Limonorush is 35 and I just don't think that that's like a, I don't really see her as a realistic. Like, I

want to believe in McKinsey, Duren, but she doesn't believe in herself. and refuses to hurt people, so she's never going to be good at fighting until she learns to hurt people. Well, that's it. Like, that's her problem. If she doesn't have ground and pound people

instead of trying to tap them, she would have blown the doors off her last fight. Like, it just is where she is. And there isn't this influx of young talent in this weight class. Like you see up at Flyweight, where Aaron Blanchfield's there, Alexa Grasso,

a couple other people I can't think of off the top of my head right now. But 125 has got a crop of, young people, Miranda Maverick, coming up that are like, okay, they're not going to beat Valentina now, but give them a couple of years and maybe that maybe Valentina lose this step, a bunch of young people. The top 15 of this division is still holding on to like Tisha Torres, who can never beat Bally Zhang if her life depended on it. So my issue is largely that she has to, she will probably fight Rose. I think that fights competitive, but I think I'd still pick Rose in a three match and jessica and drudge i may be favor wily but i also jessica and drudge is a terrifying human

being and i can't feel confident in picking anyone to beat that woman if it's fight so i got to go under four and a half okay so we're about split there stephen and i going over demon and jed going under that's fair that's fair and we'll talk a little bit more about the flyweight division a second but first let's go back to the man who started the show mr alex pereira i was trying to figure how to couch this okay so most of us assume if, and Adisania has said he wants it and if the scheduling works out for everyone, they'll just going to do an immediate rematch. It makes sense given how close the fight was. Their history now, I mean, even more elaborate history now and the run that Adisina had

at the top. I mean, he deserves to get an immediate rematch. He was dominant. So my question supposes that, let's say he, let's just say that a dissonier rematch happens and he, he beats Izzy. this isn't really an over this isn't really an over under this is really just like can he beat anyone else but i set the number counting in a disin your title defense let's say he beats is easy again one and a half one and a half so really i'm asking do you think he beats anyone else

jad you can over over over over i'm taking i'm taking over one and a half even without knowing the izzie thing like i'm going to favor him to be izzie in in a fourth fight or a second mama fight because for the same reasons i thought he could win this fight as he can say whatever he wants and he's a professional fighter and one of the greatest of all the time and I'm just some asshole with the microphone so maybe he's right and I'm wrong

you can't fight this dude and allow him to fight for 25 minutes you just can't like that is too dangerous a way to go about it and it's not playing it is not playing it safe to not to not accept risk and try and finish him

because he had that dude hurt at the end of the first round instead of putting the pedal down trying to bury him and then not having to fight him for 15 more minutes, he'd let him get back in the fight. And that's, I had this same issue during the peak of GSP's run. And GSP managed to pull it off.

But Carlos Conner almost kicked his head off because if you let people hang for 25 minutes, it's a lot of time for really dangerous people. Alex Paheta is boop goes the fists and you go to sleep. And I'm picking him again until Izzy gets killed, until Izzy says, F it. I may get knocked out by coming forward. But he and I are going to throw right here, right now and it ain't going to be 25.

Chuck him and see who falls first in the next five to 10 minutes. And if Izzy does that, he can win that fight. I just don't think he will. I think he's going to continue to do the thing that allows Beheada to work. So I'm going to take him in the rematch. I know that everybody in their mother is on Robert Whitaker Island right now saying that dude will beat him. I'm going to go the other way.

I don't think so. I think the only real reason that Izzy was able to have success, Maybe it's not the only one, but I think a large reason that Izzy King's score takedowns is because he can compete with Beheader on the feet because that he had to take him seriously on the feet. And so it wasn't, it wasn't just full sprawling brawl from Beheada. You give Beheada another six months, another year and knowing that, sure, maybe Whitaker can try some karate nonsense on him. But at the end of the day, man's going to be diving on the hips. I think he can smash it. and I think that he can stuff the takedowns, beat Whitaker.

I think the worst matchup form is Marvin Vittori, and he's just never going to fight Marvin Vittory, and that's great. So I don't have to worry about that one because he's never going to fight him. He is going to win two fights. He's going to beat Izzy. He's going to beat Whitaker. And by that time, Andre Muniz will finally be in the title picture,

and that's the man who takes the bell from him. I'm calling it now. I expect all the Otno points, AK, when this comes to fruition. All right. listen, hold on. Fantastic. First of all, fantastic. I'm with you that he beats Whitaker. I'm just, you know, I'm not sure that Whitaker is the one that's good, would get the title fight next after Adisina. But I don't want to step on the answers of our, as of our colleagues here. So I'll go to Stephen, uh, one and a half, Stephen, tell defenses. And this is, I mean, I said assuming the

easy win is in the bag. Jed kind of already explained why he thinks that's, that's the case. So, really, does he, can he beat anyone else? Is the real question. What's a, it's a half title defense. That's my first. No, it's just one and a half. It just means you can't, you have to pick one or two. It means you can't say there's no, there's no waffling. It's the over. It's the over under, yeah. There's no, there's no waffling.

Okay. I will go over because I think that he can beat. I agree with Jed that if he's doing what he needs, if he's doing what he needs to be doing, he wins that fight. Every time he took a step forward, did this little shuffle step forward and uncorked the straight right. He cracked. Cracked the hair.

But, you know, this is just, these things are easier said than done. And the long, like he said, the longer it goes, the worse it is. So I think, and also I just tend to favor in immediate rematches. I tend to favor the guy who won the first time. That's just something that I do. What about the guy who won the first three times? How do you feel about it? You feel stronger?

I feel slightly stronger. So, yes. I'm going to say over, I think the thing, the thing about his inexperience is that it's not necessarily a hindrance. You know, he can get with the best people and he can train and evolve and benefit from the champion's title defense schedule, which is less severe. than the up-and-comers and he can be ready for some of these guys who, again, are kind of closer to the end of their careers

than their beginning. I think that's where things get really interesting because I do think there are some fighters like Votori, like even Canadir to a certain extent, who would give him a lot of problems. But can they beat him, given his game? gifts, his powerful gift, I'm willing to take the wager that they don't.

Okay. All right. So we got two pretty clear overs. Damon, are you going to make a clean sweep for the overs? I'm going over as well. I think he is Adasanya's boogeyman. So I think that is a win. I think that will be a win again.

And then I'm with Jed 100% on the Robert Whitaker thing. Robert Whitaker is yet to beat the best middleweight, you know, outside of when he became champion, he's yet to beat the best middleweight in his division. He lost twice to Yoel Romero, and he lost twice to Israel out of Sanya. Now, I know technically he has wins over Yuel Romero, but he lost both of those fights. And I like Robert Whitaker. Robert Whitaker's going to beat Marvin Vittorri. He's going to beat Paul O'Costa.

He's going to beat Derek Brunson. He's going to beat Jared Canaaner. But I don't think he's going to beat a six-foot-two, 300-pound, whatever the hell Alex Pereer actually weighs in. Give a take. That kind of reach and strength. He's just not going to beat him, just like he didn't beat Israel. He had a great second performance against Israel still lost ultimately, you know, in a pretty lopside of fashion. And I don't think things are going to go much better for him against, against Pereira.

The one caveat I would throw in this, the one that's scary is if the UFC decides, you know what, we need, we need another star. And if Pereira's not going to be that guy and they're like, here, here's Hamzot. Then I might rethink this whole over thing because if he gets Hamzot after Adasana, that might be the end of Pereira's reign real quick. But I'm betting on the fact the UFC seems confidently trying to book Colby Covington against Hamza, which means they're going to keep a welterweight for at least a little bit longer. Because if he beats Colby, he's getting a title shot at Welterweight. And that will delay his eventual move to middleweight. So I'm betting on the odds of Hamzod not going to middleweight right away.

If that happens right away, all bets are off. But for now, I think he beats Adasanya. I think he beats Whitaker. They're never going to give Marvin Vittori another title shot. Let's be honest about that. They're never giving Jared Cannon near another title shot. shot, let's be honest about that. Munez, I agree, would be kind of like

the other kryptonite there, but yeah, so I'm going over. Okay, so most of us are, I'm going, I'll just be different, I'm just going to say under, but also because I have this weird feeling for whatever reason, Whitaker is not going to be the, would not be the immediate next tail defense after

a disson, I mean, he probably should be if he beats Vittori, but just, I don't know, I've, I sense some weirdness, and I like that you mention Hamza, you're right, he's probably more, they're angling him more towards well, alterweight, but I could still see that middleweight fight happening somehow. So, you know, someone drops out late notice, something like that. So I'm just not optimistic that Petetta can, even if he beats Easy again, can get another

title defense. Yeah, Munez is not close yet. I think we all agree he would, we'd all pick him to beat it. He's just kind of won away. He's won away. Last one, guys, this is kind of quick. Blanchefield, Aaron Blanchfield. How many wins before she gets a title shot?

And this could be at Valentina for the undisputed. This could be vacant. this could be some sort of interim title situation. How many wins before she ends up getting a shot at some form of UFC goal? I said it at two and a half. Two and a half. Jed, would you like to start us off? Oh, no, Damon, you know, Damon started us off this time.

I'm sorry. This is scary because in my head... And I don't say win, by the way, just that she's going to fight for a title. So it could be Valentina. It could be Valentina. I'm going to say over because I think from talking to Aaron Blanchfield as much as I have, and knowing her manager, I don't think they're going to rush her into this. She called out Andrea Lee after beating Molly McCann.

That's a smart call-out. Andrea Lee's number nine, number 10. That's a very winnable fight for her. She's not calling out, you know, Caitlin Chukagan yet. She's not calling out Lauren Murphy yet. She's not calling out the top three or four fighters in that division yet. Andrew Lee is a good next step. And if that's one, you know, she's taking baby steps.

And I appreciate that. Both her and Casey O'Neill, who's another name we haven't mentioned yet, another really good flyweight prospect. Both of them have said, I'm a couple years away from challenging Valentina, and I appreciate that they're honest about that, whether it's just their own readiness or just hoping that maybe Valentina loses a step,

whatever the case may be. But they're not calling out Tyler Santos. They're not calling out Lauren Murphy. They're not calling out the top fighters of division just yet. So I'm going to go over because I think Aaron is smart enough to know slow and steady wins the race, not running into a brick wall named Valentina Shipchin going to two more fights because as good as Aaron Blanchfield is, she's not beating Valentina right now.

Damon predicting responsible management and career planning taking the over there. Jed, go ahead. What do you think? Two and a half. How many more? How close is she to any sort of title shot? Over. I think over for sure.

Not that she necessarily needs it. I mean, maybe everyone kind of needs it just because it is Valentina. and I would not pick Aaron to beat Melantina within the next year, which is what you're talking about if you're taking an under. But yeah, I think she is going to take some time and just, because, you know, whoever she called out somebody, who'd she call out?

Andrew Lee. Andrew Lee, that's right. Andrew Lee, who, you know, is a top 10 or 15, something like that. She's just going to move up and kill a bunch of people until she gets there. And, I mean, honestly, the best course of action for her

would just be to take all the time in the world until Valentina inevitably abandons the belt to move up, to pursue a second, and then you don't even have to fight Valentina at all. And then you just get to be the champion, because if she fights anybody that's not Valentina for the belt, she's going to win. She's that damn good. So over two and a half for sure. Very confident over for Jed.

Stephen, and then Ethan is getting a title shot, not necessarily winning a title. I'm going to say over. Here's the one possible counter argument to that. When we see her fight somebody like Molly McCann who's popular, but not anywhere near her skill set in her specialty, her stock takes a big jump. Andrea Lee, I'm not sure she's as, I don't think she's as popular by a long shot as Molly McCann. but it's another matchup where I think she's going to look really good

because Andrea Lee's skill set in her specialty is nowhere near hers. When you get higher up in the division, she's going to struggle a little bit more. And that's why, you know, if she does take that route, if she does go over, she's going to run into some problems. I also just think for Valentina there's a couple, there's at least two or three options for her before she ends up fighting somebody like Aaron.

There's two or three fights that she could have before that. So I don't know. I think that over is the most likely course of action. But in this sport, if you have performances that make you look good, you can jump the line. If the timing is right, if they're like Valentina gets injured or whatever, whatever, I could also see it happening under.

But I'm going to say more than likely not over. I'm going to be different again. I'll take the under guys. I think either she becomes a victim of her own success and just crushes her next to opponents, gives you no choice but to throw into a Valentina fight, mainly because Valentina, you know, if she wants to stay busy at 125 and just needs a mandatory challenger, as it were. Or we finally see Valentina go up for that third fight with Pena and then, you know,

takes some time off. Maybe she, you know, maybe she beats Pena and wins the title and, you know, can't defend both. You mean Nunes? What did I say?

Pena. How many times did I say it? Multiple times. Like three times, yeah. Guys, it's been a long show. Let's,

let's, Robert here. That's, when you're confusing, when you're, when you're still calling Giuliana Pena, the UFC women's band and weight champion,

you know, maybe it's about time to a sign up. But looking ahead, guys, I just want to say, thank you guys for those fantastic overunders. We will, we will keep a record of this.

And hopefully, Some of these got to wait a while. Zhang is going to have to revisit. I don't know, maybe a couple of years from now. Or not, depending what happens if a third real fight happens and Rosebeats her again. But, yeah, looking ahead, we're going to have a ton of movement at light heavyweight.

Possibly as early as this Friday, guys, as we have Bell Tour 288, the rematch, finally, Corey Anderson and Vadim Nemcov. Some people said Corey was going to win the first fight anyway, and, you know, it was lucky for, Nemcov got lucky with the no contest. But now, fingers crossed, we will just get a definitive end to this little two-fight rivalry. And we'll see if Corey Anderson can move up in the rank.

He's number three behind Prohachka and Glover-Teshirea. And then, of course, Prohachka and DeSherra themselves rematching UFC 282 on December 10th. And also on that card, Jan Blahovic and Magamad-Ankhaliev, also two guys in the top 10. Again, U.C. 282. And Bantamweight, we could see some action, Bantamweight Division. We got the grand – is there a Grand Prix? No, is this still a Grand Prix? Yes.

No. It's a Grand Prix. For Bellator, yeah. Still Grand Prix. Rofian Stats and Danny Sabatelo, Beltoch-289 on that same card, number 11 patchy mix, and Mago Medov. So there hasn't been a lot to, oh, well, no, we had shot on Malley last time. Anyway, that's what to look forward to guys. Also, U.S.

Orlando, a lot of ranked fighters on there. Stephen Wondervoid Thompson, Tait to Ibasa, Ruf Hafelde Sanyos, Angela Hill. So sneaky, kind of a sneaky. more ranked fighters on that than 282. Correct. If we're just talking about, yeah, it just just amount. Yes, UFC Orlando on December 3rd actually has more. So anyway, thank you guys.

Thank you, Damon Martin. Thank you, Stephen Morocco. Thank you, Jen Mishu for joining me on this show. Thank you everyone who is listening, who was sat through this very, very, very long podcast. But listen, it was an event. It was a crazy month. It was a, that card, actually month's cycle.

That card, I'm still reeling. I'm still reeling. I'm still running. Alpsedda is the UFC middleweight. champion is number one at Middleweight is a top 10 pound for pound fighter and MMA fighting's rankings. That's right. That's right, guys.

You did not dream it. So thank you everyone. Next month, Sheen Alshadhi should be back joining me as a host, but for now, I bid all of you adieu and keep on ranking. Is that a good catchphrase, guys? That's a good catch phrase for the show. No, it's not a catch phrase. Keep on ranking. Keep on ranking.

Keep on ranking, guys. Keep on ranking, guys. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.