MMA Fighting - Rankings Show: Does Jon Jones Leave MMA As The Undisputed GOAT?

Episode Date: July 4, 2025

Jon Jones is actually retired. And despite his nearly unmatched in-cage accomplishments, the question remains: Is he truly the greatest fighter to ever compete in MMA? On a special edition of the MMA Fighting Rankings Show, Alexander K. Lee, Damon Martin, Jed Meshew, and E. Casey Leydon revisit the often-discussed topic of Jones’ legacy in regards to how it compares to others in the GOAT conversation. Did the two-division UFC champion do enough to surpass the achievements of Georges St-Pierre, Demetrious Johnson, Khabib Nurmagomedov, Jose Aldo, Fedor Emelianenko, and others? Pound for pound, is Jones the most skilled fighter ever? All four of our panelists put a number next to Jones’ name and make their case as to why he is or isn’t the undisputed GOAT. Plus, in the wake of Ilia Topuria’s game-changing knockout of Charles Oliveira at UFC 317, we suddenly find ourselves with three champions receiving votes for the No. 1 spot in the MMA Fighting Pound-for-Pound Rankings: Topuria, Islam Makhachev, and Alexandre Pantoja. Our panelists explain why their choice deserves to be considered the best overall fighter on the planet. Follow Alexander K. Lee ⁠⁠@AlexanderKLee⁠⁠ Follow Damon Martin @DamonMartin Follow Jed Meshew @JedKMeshew Follow E. Casey Leydon ⁠⁠@ekc⁠⁠ Subscribe: ⁠⁠http://goo.gl/dYpsgH⁠⁠ Check out our full video catalog: ⁠⁠http://goo.gl/u8VvLi⁠⁠ Read More: ⁠⁠http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Okay. Hello, hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the MMA fighting rankings show. This is your host, Alexander K. Lee. Ready to talk about some of the moving and shaking that has been going on in all of the divisions off from heavyweight, all the way down to strawweight. Some exciting stuff. We have new champions.

We have several champions who held on to their spots. Kind of a lot has changed since the last ranking show. kind of not. That's kind of the state that M.A. is in at the moment, right? It feels like there's constant news because there's constant fluctuation. And yet at the end of the day, it also feels like we're a bit stagnant. That's kind of the weird dichotomy of being MMA and being a combat sports fan these days. So we're going to dig into that a little bit. We're going to have two big topics to talk about today. I'll just tell you guys right off the front. We want to talk about John Jones. Yes, his retirement feels like it happened two months ago

now, given the M. May new cycle. But we never really had the opportunity to sort of break down now that it's over, now that it's all said and done, now that Jones is definitely retired and never, ever, ever, ever, ever fighting again. Where does he stand in the all-timeless? Because we saw a ton of reactions for anyone who was on social media when that retirement announcement down saw the immediate reactions. But let's, you know, maybe we can have a little more objectivity. We can kind of take a look back, take a step back, excuse me, and look at it.

Now we're a little removed from the news. And also we'll talk about our number one pound for pound situation, guys. You might have heard, Elito Poria. the new lightweight champion is on Makachab out of the division chasing his own second title sometime later this year. But Toporia's triumph at UFC 317 has raised the question of who is number one. And Makachov has been our number one for over 600 days. But I'm seeing a lot of Toporri number one talk now, guys. So here to help me dig into these topics is a few members of our esteemed voting panel.

First off, I'll introduce the great and always fair, Jed Michoud. I am always fair. And I'm going to be very fair about John Jones as people pay no attention to the chickens can't be goat signs over my right shoulder. I will be more than fair to John Jones. And I am the only person who is being fair to the true number one pound for pound fighter in the world. But we'll come back to that when that is the topic of conversation.

We will come back to that. And we'll get to our, first we've got another one of our guests co-hosted. What do we call this guys, but it's our panel of people? another M.A. fighting, brilliant mind, the wonderful Damon Martin, Julianna Pena fan number one, very reluctantly had to take her off of the top spot in the women's band-to-wing rankings. How's this going, Damon? Yeah, I don't think she wasn't my number one banterweight when she was champion.

So I don't think she was not. So, yeah. Why are you just starting like this, AK? Why are you just starting right off the bat with this? Yes, it was, she was not. I think, I believe, going into, what was the event? 316 when she became champion. I think four of us had Kayla Harrison number one.

So she was already M-A-Fightings number one Bantamweight going into 317. I believe I was one of the Pena's, and I think, I want to say Mike. I think Mike was the other Pena. But obviously Harrison-dominated, we have a unanimous women's Bantamweight number one. In fact,

in fact, the article's not out yet, guys, but maybe by the time this goes up, people will be able to look at it, you have a little visual aid. All but one of the 11 division, that we've ranked have unanimous number ones, which is say all six of our panelists voted for the same number one fighter. Only heavyweight is different.

We have five votes for Tommy Aspinol and one vote still for Francis Ngano. But this says a lot, of course, about the dominance of the UFC these days. Bellator no longer even existing. PFL being very funny sort of its champions. PFL losing several of his champions. I mean, they had Kayla. If they had, I don't know, had a bantamweight division there, Maybe that would have been a non-UFC number one.

But no, we are unanimous. There's not a lot of dissension to go around. I don't know how you guys feel about that. Jed, does this, is this a good thing? It feels a bit boring, but it's a good thing that for a moment we have peace in the land of Rankingslandia and that we're all like, oh, you know, we all have the same number ones. It was definitely a good thing.

Like, we should all have the same number. Like, the hope. Yes, because that's the point. Point of the belt is supposed to be who is the best fighter in the world at this weight class. And if there is unrest in the kingdom or whatever, then that's how we get sort of dissension in the ranks. It should be like, we shouldn't all have the same rankings, you know, one through 15 or whatever. But like that shouldn't be how any weight class goes because sometimes you're going to have a lot of overlap because the fighters have really sussed it out. They fought each other.

You can just kind of weave everybody correctly. But a lot of this is interpretive. It's you waiting, you know, certain performances, finishes versus, you know, decisions, etc. And so there should be some sort of discussion to be had about a lot of the rankings. Not for the very top spot. That should go to the champion who should be the best fighter in the world. But that has not always been the case, especially recently. And so I frankly think that it is like a really good.

thing because you could make arguments that any of the people we have is number one unanimously aren't the best right like you could say well they haven't fought this guy and that guy would beat them you know when they match up or whatever but they have done enough in like a reasonable set of circumstances to be like yeah sure you're you're clearly the divisional champion the only person who like it's even really a question with right now is ironically iliotta puria who has one win at lightweight. But the win was spectacular and it was over one of the three best guys in the weight class. So like, sure, we can all just be like, yeah, that guy's a champion. He can hold the number one spot. This is how this should be if the sport is working in a harmonious and functional

way. You mentioned, you know, if anyone has a case over Ilya, for example, because it's just the one lightweight fight. Actually, so Damien, I want to ask you, in any of our divisions, you have a chance to look some of those over, gosh, does anyone have a case? I'm looking at more for myself right now and I don't think there is but does anyone have a case to be you know that's not number one

to garner a first place vote I don't know if you want to go outside the UFC like I don't know if one would argue Dakota Dichiva I think that's a little crazy is probably too early but just to give people some idea like at various points we had what we had patchy mix at one time

was getting first place votes again Kayla Harrison was our number one before she even won the title so like we you know we did not have to adhere to the UFC titles it just at this moment we really are but, Damon, is there anyone right now that has a case to say, like, okay, they don't have the belt, but you could argue they're number one.

I don't know. Are you seeing anyone? I mean, and also, let me just correct you real quick. Two wins really to pour you a lie way. Don't forget, John Herbert, okay? You're just, you're racing, Jay Herbert. Of course. I am.

I am because I was told in no uncertain terms and, frankly, to some extent, correctly in the lead-up to this fight, well, we're not counting that. That fight was a million years ago. don't like oh don't don't worry that he got hurt by jai herbert that was a long time ago that fight doesn't count i'm on board with that it just doesn't count like who gives a shit of that he's had one lightweight win but it's a really good one it's a really good one uh yeah i mean to answer your question though i don't really think so i mean the only one you could i mean like the one outlier in our voting and i don't know who honestly i don't know who it was was the francis ingano tommy aspinall thing

And the thing is, I don't, I don't really have a problem with that based upon Francis's entire body of work. And when he left, he was UFC champion. The problem is the problem that Francis is running into is just, he's fought one guy in the last like three years. And it was Hainan Ferreira, who is fringe top 15. And that's, and that's mostly just because heavyweight has got awful. So, like, in my estimation, Tom has done way more in the last three years while Francis has

been boxing and not fighting. So it's just based upon that where it's like, I feel like Tommy Aspinall has kind of surpassed him. But if you want to argue Francis because he left his UFC champion, he hasn't lost since then, I guess you can make that argument. But outside of that, no, I mean, I was one of the people leading the charge in the Apache Mix train. And then Marab just kept winning.

And I'm like, well, I can't, I can't deny that. Of course, Patchy came over and, you know, kind of laid an egg in his UFC debut. But I was like leading the charge in the patchy mix thing for a while. And then Marab just kept doing Marab things. And I'm like, yeah, he's number one. and who was the other. I did at one point have a different flyweight number one from one championship. Why am I blanking on his name right now?

Adrano, Adrono. Adriano Marias, thank you. Adriano Marias, after we beat DJ, after we beat Demetrius Johnson, I had him, I had him ranked briefly as number one. Because you knock out Demetri's Johnson, that's pretty impressive.

But, yeah, now, I mean, one championship doesn't even promote MMA anymore. So that's neither here or there. But yeah, I mean, there really isn't. I mean, you know, you're like Johnny Evelyn's a really, really good middleweight. problem is that Johnny Evelyn has no one to fight right now. And Dakota Ditchiva, I think she's legit, but she has one win over like a really

quality opponent. Good win, Tylos, but still just one win. So yeah, it's just, yeah, there's just nobody. I mean, there's, there's just really no arguing right now. I think you could make an argument that Armand Sarukian is the number one lightweight. You could. So he's just, he's beating a lot of people in the weight class. and I didn't, not who I ranked number one,

but I think that there is a realistic argument for that one. Yeah, if we're going to jump around real quick. Yeah, I agree with the arm and think. If, if, you know, first of all, AK, I didn't get an intro, by the way. You intro to everyone but me. That is true. I did not introduce. I was going to say, like, start the show over.

Start the show over. Yeah. I was like, Casey's here. Guys, Casey's here too. Hey. I told I forgot to introduce Casey. The producer extraordinaire. You're just sometimes you're so.

So you know what? They say the sign of a good producer is the one you don't see. All right. Thanks. See, that, see, Casey? That was perfect. That was perfect. Anyone listening to this in podcast farm is going to be like, wow, it's a great producer.

I was going to say, though, was if, in my mind, if, if, sorry, if Toporga had won a competitive fight against Oliver and didn't win the way, didn't win the unbelievably spectacular way he won, I was actually kind of in my mind. already planning to put arm in has the top lightweight but because of the how he won i can't i just couldn't do it yeah that that that was basically my thinking so that's what what you had said um yeah yeah yeah because ranking wise armin's still above so if say if it wasn't a championship fight it was just a fight i mean i wouldn't put to pueria above um armin yeah but this but the dominance of the win It was just unreal, but I'm sure we're talking more about that. And there is a measuring stick because Armand fought Charles a year ago, went to a split decision with him, you know, at UFC 3.

That was a very close fight. I'llia knocks him out in under three minutes. I'm not, I know it's going to make mad, but I'm just saying like the eye test says, like they both had the same fight. I'll knock them out and, you know, Armin, go and slips him by him. I agree. Yeah. And I get it.

And that's why I have Ilya. But if somebody was on this pod and had put Armand, I would be like, yeah. Because like if AK, if you had done it, your entire philosophy is largely, well, you can only advance past the guy you beat. And prior to 317, I assume that you had Armand in front of Charles Olivera. So if you had been like, he didn't beat the guy in front of him, he can only bump. I would have been like, okay, I buy that argument. So, but nobody made that argument. We all unanimously.

I just want to say, Chad, you mentioned Edgina Martinez earlier. I can tell you that was a Freudian slip preparing for your, for. your anti-Islam argument. Okay, I see. I see how it is it. Well done. Well done. Well done.

You can bring that up again later. I was trying to slip because of that. Real quick. I wanted to defend my Francis thing. Because I was the one guy outlier of Big Francis Gano is number one. But it's one with almost like an asterisk. A. If there's one A and one B, just because, and this is all John Jones fought, just because Francis

has fought more. recently than Tom Aspinon. Once Tom Aspinon enters the cage and wins, once after all enters the cage and wins, any way he wins, he will bump. He will be, I will put him up above Francis. It's just the recency. It's just, it's so close right now, but that's all. And Francis never lost the title. Like I know, I know, I know we should, it's not fair to say.

And that's not fair to Tom because Tom has obviously, you know, since that time has beaten two top 10 guys. Chris Boyer was a top 10 guy and, uh, serial gone. was a, no, no, no, God, I'm sorry. Circuit Pavlovich when he won the belt was a top five, like a top five, top six guy. So obviously the recent body of work for Tom is much stronger, but Francis never lost the title. He was our lineal number one for the longest time.

And just because, yes, of this inactivity, we did kind of have to eventually bump him down. Like, it was only fair. So the only other arguments I think of guys is, I mean, Jed, you once upon a time, did you not have Shavcott as your number one once upon time? I did. But you think, there's no case for him.

There's no case for him to be higher than, JDM? I think it's a lot harder because I pulled Shavkat off number one when Leon was still champion because he was, he just lot like was not being active enough and Leon had, you know,

he won the Oosman rematch. I think that is when I officially did the swap. Because when Leon beat Usman, that was when I put Shavkat number one. And then when he won the second I was like, all right, you just got to give Leon his flowers here. And it's not like Shavcott was fighting.

so frequently. And now it's especially hard to do it when you're like, he fought in December. That was a competitive good win. But like he's out and there's no talk of him. Like I, you could maybe, it's not the craziest thing. No. But like the Jack win is really good and the rest of Jack's resume is pretty, pretty solid as well.

I would have no problem with someone if they had Shafcott number one because Jack telling him, Adelaina, amazing fighter, earned it. He really is a champion of circumstance, right? He was supposed to fight. on Edwards in a UFC London main event. And then got his opportunity, took advantage of it, one clean, looked all the world like the number one welterweight in the world. So I'm not taking away from JDM.

But if someone said Shavcott, because he was supposed to fight for the title in December, right? It's really just, it's totally out of Shavcott's hands that he is not the number one welterweight right now. I don't know about that. I mean, Jack, I mean, Jack, I mean, listen, I know he's dropped recently,

but he did have a knockout win over Gilbert Burns when Gilbert Burns was still in the top. and Shavkat's biggest win outside of Ian Machado Gary is Wonderboy. And Wonderboy is not the same Wonderboy as one of the same Wonderboy was like five, six years ago. So like I would argue Jack has a better resume than now that he has a win over Balau and Gilbert. He has a better resume than Shavkat would wins over Wonderboy. And Jeff Neal, I think Jeff Neal is still a quality win.

That's in there as well. But I think Wonderboy, Wonderboy was the biggest win until he beat Ian Machado Gary. And I still think like I think Jack's two wins with Bilal and Gilbert. are still slightly better than that right now. And I agree with Jed. The other problem is Shabkat's been out of sight out of mind, which is a problem. Like he won in December and now he's just disappeared. But I will say this on this topic.

If Shavkat comes back and has to fight because we all expect Islam's going to fight Jack. And so let's say Shavkat, you know, fights Sean Brady and he finishes Sean Brady. I would be very open to reconsidering, especially if Islam beats Jack, right? because then it's the deporius situation all over. Islam has one welterweight win if he beats Jack. And let's say it's competitive. He doesn't even blow the door off. But he wins,

you know, a Volcanovsky won, pretty clear decision. If Shavkat adds Sean Brady and he's done what he's done, I'm probably going to put him. So like it, like those are, those are the good times when it's fine for there to be dissension.

Like we don't want it to be like, well, shit, man, everybody's bad and the UFC's giving title fights to the number 14 dude because he's famous or whatever. Yeah, sure, sure. The one other name I want to throw out there is... Was that a shout out to Patty Pimlet?

Don't. No, that would be the unranked lightweight. Because he's famous. We should mention Patty is ranked. I think it was already ranked. It was just someone who didn't have him in their rankings, but we don't need to go with this again. By the way, Casey, I'm sorry to say,

Alexander Shobli, no longer afar. That must be your fault. Did you abandon Shably? Yeah. I had to. I had to. Wow. Wow.

I had to. Yeah, he got popped. And so, yeah, he's out. Oh, that's right. I had to, I had to put, I just, I had to put some random lightweight in the ranking. And I don't know, Patty came up. Yeah. Sure.

It's cool. We need to do. He's the hipster. I didn't realize. I didn't realize this. We need to, we need to remove AJ McKee because he's no longer a lightweight either. Is he going to get out of there? Is he going back?

He told me his next fights at featherweight and he told me he's staying a featherweight. That is his weight class. AJ's next fight in July, July, whatever it is, the Cape Town card. He's fighting a featherweight again and he told me he's staying a featherweight. That is his division now. Just making things hard. Coriand some heavyweight. Like, I don't know what's going on.

PFL, let's keep PFCL and keep fighters. I don't know what's going on. One more name I want to mention, Casey, if you could bring up the featherweight ranking. I know he doesn't have the resume yet and also he finishes nobody is there not a case like Wolfsars I know he has to earn it he has to earn it we just want to see him fight for it

but like if someone said Bobstar was the number one featherweight you're just absolutely denying that no way no case no chance he's never lost yet I don't know if you heard about that before he hasn't and if Volk had lost like other fights but Volk lost to one dude that dude's not in the way class anymore

I think that that would be and like I'm a man who's been disrespectful to Alexander Volkanowski from time to time. You? That would be incredibly disrespectful to what Alexander Volcanozky is accomplished if you put Mossar in front of him. He's not even the real champion. You got a vacant belt.

Come on. That could have been, why didn't both start getting that opportunity? I'm kind of open to that. I'm actually open to that discussion. Yeah. But that doesn't mean he should be the top ranked featherweight. Yeah.

Because he is not enough. He should have gotten the shot instead of Diego. Okay, that's fine. We'll move on. We're going to get back to. And let's, And let's not forget, Volcanozzi is the greatest feather weight of all time, too. So there's a little extra.

Damon, please, Damon, we have, you can't hurt you. We have another goat talk I want to get to. And also, and also, it's just easy. No one believed in Bokanowski. Just saying, no one believed in him. Yeah. And you know who was right? But people who didn't for three of his parents.

All right. We're moving on. We're moving on. We'll get, because listen, we're going to talk about Ilya more. We're going to talk about Islam more. And we're going to talk about someone else more. A third option in the pound for pound rankings. But I want to talk all.

time since Damon kind of brought it up. When we talk about all time, the big picture, I want to talk about John Jones. I want to say I had conflicted feelings about his retirement, but I really didn't. Probably because we had all kind of... No, no, because I'm not being mean. We had all kind of understood

that he's one foot and, you know, for nine toes out the door, right? When he wasn't fighting Tom Aspinall, we're like, well, it's not just Tom. Seeley seems like he doesn't want to fight anybody. Probably if they had come with Alex Pereira, that fight almost definitely would have happened. It just doesn't seem like it was ever really in the works for whatever reason.

Probably multiple sizes did not make sense. But now, again, guys, it ended poorly. The Tom Aspenol drama is one of the least, like one of the most irritating storylines as far as feuds go of probably the of all time in MA history. But I want to try and not think about that. I want to think about the good times, guys. I want to think what the good times we had with John Jones in cage and ignore all that other stuff as well. And I want to get everyone's opinion We usually revisit these lists once

What every five years? Maybe you make like an updated goat list And I think the main list doesn't change that much If I'm being honest, maybe just for us You know, I think it's skews old school Maybe if you ask like a post-Connor McGregor Post-pandemic fan Maybe it would be more like it would be a lot of new people

Like Marab would be in like the top five or something I don't know I can't, you know, Israel I just say I might be in the top five I have no idea For us, I'm assuming and I'll go in no particular order. That's a lie. This is my order.

You have to have these seven names in the conversation. You have to. It has to be GSP, Demetius Johnson, John Jones, Josie Aldo, Fador, Habib, Anderson, Silver. That I think is like, has to have this feeling conversation. I always have BJ in there. Of course, BJ Penn. I do feel like the end of his career really kind of, not even talking about this stuff, like the personal stuff, like the way the losing streak at the end.

I do feel like for me, doesn't disqualify him. I could see a lot of people just saying like, no. Like that's, it just ended so poorly, you can't have them in there. But I think the top seven, you guys would agree,

right? Am I forgetting anyone? Or is there someone who definitely just doesn't even belong in that top seven is not in the conversation? I mean, I can't. But Damon, please go first. No,

I was just, this is just a men's list. Otherwise, I would have included Julianna Pena. I'm sorry. This is men's greatest all time list. Only men. Julianna Pena will be on another list,

obviously. Sorry, Damon, go ahead. This is going to sound, I know it's going to get, I'm going to get knocked for this. I know Jed's going to head's going to pop off his shoulders. But, I mean, I can't put Aldo in my list if I have Volcanovsky is my number one featherweight of all time.

So I would say Aldo is not on my, on my seven. By the way, that's not, I love Josiah. Joe Zelle is an incredible legend. I just think, like, if I'm going to say Volcanowski is the number one featherweight of all time, and I'm also ranking Aldo Moore as just a featherweight because his bandton weight career was a little up and down. He didn't have a bad bansomweight run, but I don't weigh that nearly as much as what he did a featherweight. Okay Jed

Jed you looked I'm glad I was I was worried I'm like no Damon's making a lot of sense right now I think this is this is okay You guys have also

I feel like debated this on another show Yeah And other shows I've just had this discussion Like I love Damon He's wrong

Everyone who thinks Volk's better than Aldo is just wrong And I don't I've given my points A million times And they have not swayed their opinions Yeah

Yeah Mine is not getting changed Until Volt does more. Jed, am I forgetting any names? Am I forgetting any names or should any of those names not be there? I think one of those names shouldn't be there.

I've been saying this for probably two years now. I don't care who you rank as your greatest fighter of all time as long as it's of this six. I believe there's a pantheon of six fighters that are there, that they are in the room. There's a goat room and it's guarded by a velvet rope and only these six people get to walk into their special little clubhouse. And it is six of the seven that you mentioned. It is John, it is GSP, it is DJ, it is Anderson, it is Jose, and it is Fador. And the one that is left out is Habib.

I love Habib. Habib is one of my favorite fighters of all time. Habib is, I would honestly guess the last fighter I'll have like a real emotional connection to at this stage of my fandom and career in the way that like I was always rooting for Habib in the cage. his career was at the top was simply too short and I again BJ Penn is my favorite fighter of all time he is the most meaningful fighter to me

his career if he had just been like hey if he had won the Cal Luna rematch instead of the absolutely nonsensical draw that then killed the lightweight division then he probably is like he's probably just the greatest fighter who ever live because instead of doing I'm going to go fight Gomi at Rumbling the Rock and fight Hino-Machita and just kind of bounce around. Like, he just defends his lightweight belt against Dean Thomas, etc.

Obviously runs him. Gets the chance against Matt Hughes still wins that and builds this sort of insurmountable lead at lightweight. But because his real focus lightweight run was so short and he just did a bunch of other things, he is beloved, right? And like, I don't know if that's worth it, you know, in the context of the thing. But I had this, I wrote about this with Iliot-Tupura. Like the way Alia is going in his career, he's not going to be a traditional all-time great in these terms.

Because he is just not interested in putting together a sustained title run. And that is the currency of greatness in the sport. He will be a beloved fighter. And if he wins the welterweight belt and does something no one's ever done, then sure. But if he doesn't do that, he's going to be a guy who had six or seven fights at the very peak of the sport and then walked away early because that's sort of his intention. And I respect that, but in these conversations, like Habib, you just, you get left out. And so Habib and to some extent, Islam Makachev, they're the guys guarding the velvet rope into the room. Because I don't think you can put Islam in that room.

He only has four title defenses. If he wins the welterweight belt, maybe we open the discussion up. But like, I need you to get to like at least six title defenses to get in this room because that is what greatness in all sports, and particularly in combat sports has really always been about. And there are only five men in the history of the sport, plus Fador's career is obviously a little unique in that regard who have done that.

And so it's a six-person pantheon. Whoever you pick from that six is your goat, I'm fine with. I'm going to focus, John, a second. Yeah, yeah, actually, I wanted to go to you. Go ahead. And then I also want to hear your, if there's any names I forgot, or there's any names you would throw in that,

add to that six or seven. I want, I don't think he's in the six, but there is one weight division that's missing from that list. That's Benzah Bantamweight. I think Dominant Cruz is right on the edge. Yeah, well, I was going to ask, is it Dominant Cruz or has Marab surpassed him yet? Is Marab about to enter that with maybe one more win? I think one more win, and I think Marab moves into the I'm guarding the rope with Habib and Ilya,

or not Iliah, sorry, Islam. and two more wins. Like Marab is very close to being in the room. He's very close to being in the room. Dom's not in the room, but I think Maraub's really close to it. Yeah, I don't,

yeah, I don't think Dom's in the room, but, but if we have to put a Bantam weight in that little list, because there wasn't a Bant, right? Yeah. I don't know,

I just think it's interesting. If, like, off sending Marab could, like, honestly, being in that, being in that, absolutely.

Much more as well. Yeah. Marab is, Marab is much closer. I like, This is going to sound like I'm digging on Dominic Cruz and I'm not. I think Dominic Cruz had an incredible career. When you really examine this, I think I said this privately in a Slack conversation

we had a while ago. When you look at many of his biggest wins, they came against flyways, guys who were flyways who just fought a bantamway because there was no flyweight division. Joseph Benavides was a flyway. Demetreys Johnson is a flyweight. I'm not trying to discredit what he did. I'm just saying like if you really dig down and drill into his record, a lot of what Dominic Cruz did in WC was against guys.

guys who are legit fly weights. Still quality, still good wins, but it's hard for me to put wins over flyweight, the guys who were flyways comparatively to Umar de Magamatov, comparatively to Chana Malley, comparatively to Pudder Yan, you know, the guys who Marab is beating right now. So it's not a knock. You're nitpicking and saying who's the best bantamweight. That's why I put Marab above Dominic because a lot of Dominic's career was spent

fighting guys who were actually flyweight masquerading as bantameteries. Is this the point of the podcast where I mentioned that seven of John Jones's title defenses came against guys who fought at 185 pounds? All right. Well, let's get, hold on. Let's get into that. Let's get into the John Jones of it all, as it were. Oh, was there something else I wanted to ask you first, Casey? No, let's get into the John Jones of all.

I'm just going to ask you all what number you have met first. Don't tell me who he's ahead. Don't tell me he's behind. Let me know what number he's at. I'll give you guys a second. Do you guys all have a number? You guys all have a number? Not really, but I'll make one.

Damon? John Jones is the greatest while time. There's no question. He's number one. Okay. So Jones, Damon, number one. Casey. Number four.

Number four. Okay. I think I know. Okay. It seems pretty, I think he's ahead of him. Jed. He's doing some math.

He's doing some math. He's mathing. I'm just trying to see, like, I'm going to go five. Number five. Okay, we're kind of all over here. I would go three. I think my number for John is three.

Y'all are crazy. Let's go. Let's let, let Damon go first. Damon has him won, so he doesn't have to explain who's ahead of John because no one's ahead of John. So, yeah, Damon, let's make the case for John number. I mean, it's not that hard to make. So, but go ahead.

Let's wax a little bit of one, John. Just look at it. I mean, undefeated record, I don't care about Hamill. You don't actually have a win over him. But, okay, let's just get that out of the conversation. He has wins and a win. were eight former UFC champions. That's a huge mark on his resume right there in terms of like the guys he beat.

I mean, in a row, he beat Shogun, Rampage, Leoto, Rashad Evans. Obviously, you add in a couple wins over Daniel Cormier. You add in Glover to Cher, who ended up becoming a champion. And then he goes to heavyweight and he beats, you know, Cyril Gond. I'm not going to count Steve A because that was a fight that probably should never happen. And Steve A was done at that point. But you can say Steve is on the record. It is a former UFC champion.

So you can't just totally discount. it. But then you just look at the resume, I mean, you know, undefeated, the runs he went on, the guys he beat, the way he dominated guys, he had a cut, I mean, the closest, like, the only, the only guys who came close to beating him, you could argue were Dominic Reyes and Tiago Santos, and those were at a point when he basically just didn't care. Like, he was fighting guys who should have been in there with him, and they fought him to a close decision, and he still ultimately won, and the Alexander Gustaf, the very first Alexander Gustaf, and then you look at the rematch and he absolutely obliterated Gustafson.

in terms of talent, in terms of accomplishments, in terms of resume, I just don't think anyone touches John Jones. Now, if you're going to argue with me about the steroid thing, okay, that's the conversation we can have. Did he cheat? Okay, we can have that conversation. And that's a fair criticism. When you look at his resume,

when you look at the guys he's beaten, the champions he's beaten, the champions, the amount of Hall of Famers, I said champions eight current or former UFC Gambins. Look at the amount of UFC Hall of Famers on his resume. That might be even more. I'm not sure what the actual number is if I really drilled down to it.

That's a number. So, I mean, I just think it's, I just think when you look at level of competition he fought and the amount of champions he fought and defeated, it's just, to me, it's immeasurable. And I love George St. Pierre. I think he's incredible. I think he'd be number two.

And I know somebody's probably going to make an argument for Demetri's Johnson. I really don't want to turn this into like me, bashing Demetri's Johnson, but I don't think Demetrius can be even on the same level with John Jones, in my opinion, in terms of goat status. So to me, it's John all day, all night. If you want to say steroids, fine, I'll let you have that argument, but that's it.

That's the only argument you can make. I'll go next, Strongcase, Damon, Strongcase. Again, and a lot of people, a lot of fans feel the same way. I mean, you say John Jones, people immediately say, go, they start down up the goat emojis. It is not a, you know, it's not an outside of, even with all this Tom Aspinall stuff, even with, you know, his, whatever, his activity or people being like, oh, well, you know, his heavyweight run wasn't what it could have been.

The heavy rate stuff is almost like a side quest, right? And what an impressive side quest it was. So I don't think it's hard to make that argument. I don't think too many people will be up in arms about it. I know people don't like John. He's very easy to dislike, frankly. But the accomplishments are what they are, right? So I'll go next just because I have him the second highest.

I do. So I have GSP number one, Canadian bias. I'm not ashamed. And I actually have DJ number two. I'm glad you mentioned DJ. So my case for DJ is like, I mean, the obvious, the type of record title defenses. I also feel like his competition has always been underrated. I just feel like John's stats look so good.

You're right. When you spelled out that way, like, oh, all the former champions that he's beaten is Hall of Famers is just like, it's just like unbelievable. But I do feel like it's also because, let's be honest, flyweight is not like a division that was really promoted intensely outside of the UFC. Now, maybe over, maybe over in Asia. There's probably a little more flyweight activity. But even then, it wasn't a marquee division. So, Demetius Johnson didn't have champions to beat, right? Like, I think the guys he fought were, like, were very good.

And actually better than a lot of, like, other champions as far as quality competition goes. Because if you look at some of the guys he beat and how did they do in the UFC after DJ fought them, or how did they do an MA in general after DJ fought them, like, a lot of the guys he beat still went on to have, like, pretty good career. So, like, I think to me that matters, but I get it. I'm not, I don't think anyone could say, oh, well, well, John Maraga is on the same level of Shogunhua. Ali Baguatinov is on the same level as Liotta Machita. I get it. It sounds insane when you put it that way.

So I can't like, this is why having John over him is very easy. But I've always thought DJ's competition is underrated. So yeah, and just, you know, the way he won and stuff like that was very impressive. Well, so it's close, but that's my three. I would have Jones ahead of Aldo, Fador, Habib. I do have Habib probably a bit higher, maybe than certainly higher than Jed. But yeah, that's my. But I have him three.

For me, and the other strong case for John is, and this might be part of your criteria, this might not be, I have to do the thing in my head. We're like, if all things were equal and you took John Jones and his skill set and you put him in there with any fighter again, and strength and size were, you know, mostly proportionate, I still think Johns is like the most unbeatable fight I've ever seen. And this is purely, purely subjective, purely theoretical. Obviously, you can make a case for DJ, you can make a case for any of the guys on our list. but when I think about it, when I try to picture John Jones

in his skill set against anyone, I just never see him losing. I would have picked him to beat Tom Aspinall. We all want to see the Tom Aspinall fight. One of the reasons because I think he could beat Tom, but I just wanted to see it. So that to me is what sort of keeps him, I cannot take him lower.

I cannot take him out of the top three. Because comparing resumes, you can nitpick, but like in my mind, just trying to think about it in a more abstract way. I think he beats anybody in a fight, I think. Casey, let me go to you. Next, I'll go to, yeah, I'll have to go to Jed last. So, Kempson, let me go to you next.

You said four. Are you with me with GSP and DJ, or you have different names ahead of them? No, I have DJ, GSP. My number three, and I kind of jump around, but I probably end up going Anderson Silva. Okay, of course. Yeah. But then, but he had a bad, the end of his career was kind of, you know, had they kind of not quite as bad as BJ, but he got out a little before.

but then I've drawn it for. Yeah, I guess, I mean, honestly, everything Damon said, I get it. I have no issue of it. You know, I'm not, I guess my issue, I kind of go over with Jed said, hey, and it's not John's fault, but to me, he beat a lot of middleweights. And we always say 205 is a crappy division, and he just rolled over a crappy division. Now, it was a crappy division with a hell of a lot of stars, and they sold paper views, that is 100% true.

But I still think overall it's still a crappy division. And even though that's why I love DJ, even though it's not a division that sold paper views. It's not a division that I was there in Vancouver when like 90% of the crowd was leaving after the third round during the Bogatino fight. So it's weird to think that's to go. And the arena's like, oh, got to be, got to be,

but I'm I'm just talking pure skill pound for pound skill and I just think those smaller guys are just they just have the benefit I just think they're just way more skilled and and yeah and just John's wins just are man who are who do you think John B in his opponent wise they were in their prime like I I always think a lot of people I always think a lot of people like I don't think was show me was definitely his crime and show gun wasn't washed yeah court i'm sorry i talked to over i'm sorry like i i don't think i don't think shogun or machita were like washed when they fought john i thought those were yeah but i thought those were pretty still like i didn't think that was the best i don't think that was the best shogun machetea ended up being a 80 to me he was always this is

chiro matita was in his prime but machita was smaller was a middleweight who was just good Because light heavy was bad. Yeah. And, and, and, and, I even saying, hate saying this. This is a very subjective thing we're talking about. So subjectively, I thought John Jones lost against Dominic Reyes. I thought he lost against Tiago Santos, too. That matters.

And that matters. And that matters. I mean, I mean, and Damon is saying, well, I'm just going to ignore that loss to Matt Hamill. Well, like, I'm kind of ignoring those wins against Tiago Santos in that sense. I'm taking them as losses. Now, now John Jones has run that, what, like that seven, Nine fight, just unbelievable run he had like in three years. Incredible.

It was a magical time to be in the sport. Much like the Conn-Megger run, much like the Ron DeRousy run, that John Jones run was part of those just, it was fun to be a fan. And it was as one, it's nothing. And I don't, I don't think we're ever going to replicate that kind of John Jones run and that hype and that hysteria and just in all, in all, everything that came with John Jones. there's a lot more to the John Jones story than just, you know, his wins and losses. I think when we talk about the greatness, I think we kind of talk about that too, because

he did change the sport and since how we look at it. Yeah. Casey just running, taking shots, not just a jump, but the entire light heavyweight division. Just everyone, man, Chuck Chuk Lattel, Rampase Jackson. I mean, God, geez, they're all trash, apparently. Like, Jesus, Damon, please help. That goes back to my heart. And I think, like, when you talk about talent,

I think talent and accomplishments are two different things. When you talk about talent, I think the two greatest fighters ever are John Jones and Demetri's Johnson. Like, I think they are the two most talented fighters we've ever seen. But when you talk about accomplishments, that's where I started digging down on DJ's record. I love Demetri. So let me be clear about that. I think he's amazing. But, you know, like you mentioned, AK, like Ray Borg, Wilson Hayes, Tim Elliott.

John Dodson, who's a very good fighter, you know, Horgoochie's a great win Chris Carrioso, you know, I mean, The immortal, the immortal Chris Carrioso. John Moraga. I mean, we could really drill down here and say, like, don't get me wrong. They're not terrible wins, but I would not, like, you consider and say they were middleweights and guys like that, but would you put any of those guys on, like an all-time list?

You would not. And I think guys, like, you would say, like, Rampage deserves a lot of credit for who he is. Rashad Evans deserves a lot of credit for the career he put together. Shogun, of course, is an absolute legend. No one would disagree with that. Whereas I can't look at DJ's record and say, man, it's just legend after legend on here. And I know a lot of that has to do with his dominance.

And I think DJ was a victim of his own success because when he came in, that was the brand new flyway division. There just wasn't as much depth. I think one of the reasons why I think Pantosia is getting a lot of credit right now is because the flyweight division is filled out so much. Like we actually know who is good at now.

Like we know how good Brandon Marino is. We know how good Brandon Royval is. We know how good these guys are. And Demetrius was at the very beginning of the flyweight division. So a lot of the wins on his resume just don't look great in hindsight. When you look at John Maraghi, you look at Ali Bogotinov. When you look at Chris Carioso, I'm just going down the list here. Yeah, yeah.

And then if you want, and then you add in just the little, you look at the little bonus points. Like what are you doing? I know you said like the heavyweight run for John was almost an afterthought. He had the one winner of her own, and then you add. and then he beat old man stepe i get it and and dj when he did go up and wait he didn't do well he got beat but he got dominated by dominant cruise he absolutely got mauled i was at that fight washington dc he got mauled by dominant cruz and then he went to one championship where everyone's not in the same weight class and yes he did eventually get the revenge against adrian maris but he

did get knocked out by adrian he did so i'm just saying like the entire i'm not discreding what dj did dj is incredible talent wise i put him right there with john jones i just think that he just doesn't have the resume. The resume to match up to John. I'll say this. Hold on Jed. Let me say, let me say it definitely doesn't have the depth.

But if you take the, I'll say this. If you take DJ's like four biggest wins, I almost would put those up there. Like as far as talent wise, obviously not a name value. If you take Adriana Morice, Suudo,

who he finished the first fight, Kioji and like Joseph Benavides, like those are four incredible wins. Those are like four like really like all the time. John Dotson, come in there too we don't make a five john dotson those are five like really again like it's it just flyweight just never had the exposure and the history of light heavyway right so he could not say the same problem we have with josie aldo all the time right we're like oh josie aldo never

beat any former champions yeah he didn't let anyone else become champion right so yeah yeah yeah and my favorite argument against salto yeah it's like it's like making the argument like because you know this is going back like a decade and and you know old man me and i'm sure case who remember this. People would still bring up Hoyce Gracie. Like, Hoish Gracie deserves to be on the Pantheon. Hoist Gracie was incredible, but then you got to look at who he was fighting, where the sport was at that time, like, all those kind of things. And that, like, I'm saying, like, DJ was a victim of his

own success because when he came in, there wasn't a flyway division. They had to, like, build it on the fly. And so that's why he has guys, like Ray Borg and Chris Carrioso on his record, where you look at them and you say, how did they get title shots? Like, how did they get in there with a guy like Demetre's Johnson? Now, because Flyweight has actually built itself out. There's people who are saying, like, I mean, everyone, I think you would probably agree. Pantosia has probably defined himself as the number two guy already with four title of defenses versus 11 for DJ because of the level of competition, the guys he's beaten. That's, I'm not like, I'm not, it's just unfortunately, DJ just came along at a time when the depth wasn't there in that division.

So it's like I said, he's a victim of his own success. You know, it was really interesting. I had DJ number one, but then when I talked about these great runs, the John Jones run, the Connor run. the Ronda Run. During that whole time, DJ was having that run too. And I didn't think about the DJ run. Because it was just always overshadowed. It was all the co-main event.

It was overshadowed by all these other gentlemen and women. So, yeah. Damien, no one's saying anything wrong here. No. Everyone's kind of correct. Yeah. When you say DJ 1 and John Jones 4, the actual gap is like this. It's like it's not like a huge gap.

It's like a tiny, tiny, tiny gap between them and your other two guys. Yeah. That's the thing about my pant down. Is it changes every day? You asked me and I didn't pull it and I was like five. And as I've been talking, I'm like, I'm good to go as high as two for John. Like I wouldn't have any issue.

If you're really going to make me sit down and pick, I don't think there has ever been a day where I have said to myself, I would rather have John Jones's career than George St. Pierre's career. And maybe that's not the best way. to qualify greatness. But if there's a fight, like if you're like, hey,

Jeannie, you can be, have anyone's fight career. I'm picking George St. Pierre's because I think George St. Pierre's had the greatest

career of all time. And like, I don't know if that makes him the goat or not. But we went through the, look at all the nits you can pick about the John and the Demetrius

and Jose Aldo and Anderson Silva. Tell me where the weakness is of Josh Koshchek, Matt, Matt Sarah, John Fitch, BJ Penn, Tiago Alves, Dan Hardy, that's the only one, Josh Kostach, Jake Shields, Carlos Kondit Nick Diaz.

Like, that run is all new opponents that are fucking hitters. And the reason that they aren't all former champions is because George didn't let him. Like that is, to me, that is the greatest unfettered run.

And I know you can look at it and say, well, he got by Matt Sarah. He did. But then we saw sometimes that happens in this sport. John got, John lost to Matt Hamill, and I'm sorry to say this, he lost because either he lost to Matt Hamill

or we're going by our feelings and not the scorecard, in which case he lost to Dominic Reyes, but he lost a fight somewhere in there. You pick which one he lost. And like everyone does it, unless you're Habib and you walk away at the perfect time because an unfathomable tragedy happened to you.

George is, George is my default answer to this question always at this. point in time just because like I it's so hard to argue against his career you can make arguments for others but like to say that you know as Damon has done that he what what John has accomplished is just more impressive uh and notice I didn't mention the middleweight belt because I don't think that that matters I think that that is an insignificant addition but mostly and this is the critical piece to all of this John is not the goat because chickens can't be goats guys we've established it clearly as a rule.

Hold on. Hold on, Jed. Let me ask you. Damon, David, go ahead and then I want to move on. Please, Damon, go ahead. Let me make my serious point. Then let me throw Jed's chicken, scabby ghost thing back at him. One, George St. Pierre has the best argument to go against John Jones and the

ghost status. The main reason that I put George one spot lower, he's my number two, is because he did get armed by Matt Hughes and he did get knocked out by Matt Sare. I know, okay, I said Matt Hamill, yes, it's a loss. But the eye test tell me he wasn't losing that fight. He legitimately got armed by Matt Hughes and he legitimately got knocked out by Matt Sarah. That's why I have him one spot below John in terms like the Pantheon. That's why I don't, as much as I think Anderson Silva is an all-time great,

I can't just ignore the end of his career. If you keep going and you start losing, I can't just say it didn't happen. Was, and then your chickens can't be goes so, but, so I guess you have, that same opinion of George, right? Because he chickened out from fighting Robert Whitaker when he won the middleweight title. He retired. He had a disease.

He had a disease. David. He had a medical issue. David. He had some sympathy. He had a medical issue. Oh my goodness. He could have come back.

He could have come back. He could have come back from that. He wanted to die, he wanted to die in the case. He chose to fight Michael Bisping and avoid Robert Whitaker. I'm just saying, if you're going to make that argument about John, you got to make it about George St.

Bieler. At least it didn't take like, like 10 months for him to leave. Damon, you're right, which then leads us to the inevitable conclusion that Josealdo is actually the goat because he is not a chicken. Okay, all right, all right. I want to say, by the way, I guess the key here is also don't fight people named Matt if you want to like hold on to your, Habibh, never fought a Matt, never fought a Matt in his

career. I just want to say it, never fought a guy named Matt. Look at him, 29. That is not a coincidence. Not a coincidence. John Jones is one loss, Matt Hamill. GSP's two losses. Matt Sarah, Matt Hughes.

Don't fight Matt's. But in all seriousness, Jed's point is absolutely correct. George is the only guy. To me, as far as accomplishments, it's George and John. And the only reason I put John above George is because he has the one loss versus the two and the two losses were both definitive losses. That's really it.

When you talk about resume, you're absolutely right. Take out Dan Hardy, which is the one like, you know. Everybody's got at least one weird. no in their eyes. That's just, OSB, OSB, you got one year.

But when you look at, jail sudden. Yeah. Nick, Nick Diaz, Carla, it's all hitters. You're absolutely right.

It's one, Tiago Alves. I mean, it's just hitter after hitter after hitter. So you're right. Like I said, I'm just, I have to nitpick in that moment.

That's the only reason I put George below the law. But you're not wrong. Like, if you're going to say George over John, that argument I'm fine with. And I say John over George for the same thing. So that, to me, that's one,

is George John. All of this is nitpicking. Once you get to this level of greatness, and they haven't fought each other in the primes of their career, it's just really splitting hairs, which is why I have the six that I think are in there. You pick any of those sticks, I'm fine. Jed, you remind us chickens, can't be goats.

Really quick before you move on. We do have to move on, really quick. If he had fought Tom Aspinall and just let's say he cleared Tom, first round finish, takes Tom out. I think he would have. Jed, number one. I think he almost certainly would have been pretty close to universally accepted as the go. Okay.

Which is why I always like, I thought the whole thing of that was stupid because he is like, I gained nothing. No, you actually gain a heavyweight title because I do, his heavyweight title is fictitious. Like I do not think it's meaningful or real. I think it is a paper belt because he never fought the best guy to get it. And then when he could have fought the other good option, he chose to retire. I don't blame for that. But like beating Tom, I think. would have been a massively significant win for him that he absolutely could have done and it's a

shame we'll never see that casey he clears tom he clears tom number one with a bullet if he would have lost to john me sorry if he would have lost to tom he's in the same spot with me exactly wouldn't drop him at all we'll drop him on and that and that's the that's the thing that i think that frustrates us all has fans is like john you don't have anything to lose you know you're still there you're you've already established where you are, but you can become that guy if you take that fight. He chose not to. And yeah, that's on him. But he, the other thing is, and I've said this at the time, in 10 years, no one will care. In 10 years when it's just us and a whole new crop of fans or two generations of new fans, they'll look back and see John Jones was a two division champion. It's the only thing

they'll give a shit about. That's and and the person, the person who gets screwed the most of this whole thing is Tom Aspinall because Tom has Tom has nobody now to prove he's developed. The only thing he can do is defendants out like 19 times and hope that record puts him apart because without John on there he's got a whole bunch of nobody's

to beat an ad on that record man. I feel bad for him because he's the one who gets screwed to most of his whole thing. Yeah. Francis, but yeah, but John was the guy. Yeah, Francis is there, but yeah. Yeah, agree. Yes. I'll segue it segment to the next point. Tom Aspinall, Casey, you have our pound for pound list available.

Our men's pound for pound list available. That'd be Tommy's sitting somewhere around what number. I should know this because I'm the one who puts these lists together. He's at number six, seven, six. Tommy Asperall number six. Not currently in talks to be number one. You guys can see this graphic. Oh, I put it the bad graphic with the typo.

But it's okay. No one will notice what it is. It was pointed out to you. Now I'm looking for it. It was pointed out to me by the great Shaheen al-Shadi and I just was so furious that he noticed it. Boo that man. Oh, I see. Yes, yes, yes.

We have three fighters, guys. We have three fighters receiving first place votes. I think going into this, I believe Islam was, I won't say heading into 317. I think it was six first place votes for Islam. I could be wrong. I have to look at last month's rankings. Either way, not the case now. Islam is still our number one.

No real change. Pantoja now has sole position of the number three spot. He was tied with Mrab. But we have Islam Bakhtab number one, three first place votes, Aela Tupura number two with two first place votes and Pantosha coming in with one first place vote. And how convenient we happen to have one of each person who has voted for these fighters. So we'll have a little quick, you guys have been with us for a while. I know we'll have a little quick, I don't want to even say debate, but let's make a case here.

We'll start with the man who just immediately made an incredible statement this past weekend. So, Damon, you have, you did, you made the jump. You put Ilya number one. Why, Damon, why? It really comes down to the quality of wins in his last three fights and how it happened. Because you knock out, and for those who are going to say Islam has two wins over Alexander Volcanowski, he does as a lightweight. And Alexander Volcanowski is not a lightweight. He is a featherweight.

He is the goat featherweight. And Iliate's a boy, he knocked him out cold. Now, I understand the knockout came after he lost Islam, but he wasn't as a natural weight class, and he did get knocked out. And I, by the way, I would have picked I would have picked I beat him again had they done a rematch. But then you go into Max Holloway, a guy who had never, ever been finished by strikes, ever. Went with some of the hardest hitters at both lightweight and failure. We went with Connor, went with Dustin, went with a ton of guys.

No one put him away. Ilya Tepore puts him away inside three rounds. And then Charles Olivaire is a legit top three. Lightweight, you go out there and you knock him out in the first round. He hadn't been knocked out in seven years. and his last knockout was Paul Felder on the ground with elbows. And that's again going with Gachi, Porie, Channler. To me, it was just the body of work currently.

Now, Islam, I've said this, and I'll say it again now, if Islam goes out and beats Jack Del and Madelena later this year, which I predict he probably will, then I'll 100% put him back in number one. It's going to be that kind of jockeying for position of who, if it's like, if Ilya beats Patty, he's not going to get a whole lot of that. If he beats Armin, different story. But if he meets Patty and Islam beats Jack, it's going to be Islam again.

So, yeah, it's kind of like what I said earlier about Patchy Biggs. I have been number one briefly abandon it and then Brad one again. I was like, well, I got to put him back number one. If Islam beats Jack, he's going to be number one again. But for now, those three wins in a row and doing it the way he did it, I can't not put him number one. Strong case. Again, this is what people are saying, man. Coming out of this weekend, UFC.com, if you will go to,

UFC.com, their rankings, Hillary is officially their number one. I don't know what they're doing now. I don't know if it's other media members. I don't know if they finally got the AI, the meta working on it. But the algorithm has spoken. Topori is number one according to the UFC.

Again, not on ours. You guys to see Islam is number one. That's where I put them. I kept Islam on top. And kind of like Damon, I'm sort of looking ahead to the JDM matchup, which is yet to actually officially be announced. We're thinking, we were, I think it has to be October.

But that is not, that is not locked in yet. So I'm sticking with Islam, and I'm deciding not to, like, I'm taking an opposite attack. I'm just not moving him down until I see what happens in that fight. I just feel like he's,

he's done so much. I wish he hadn't left the division. I wish we could have seen him fight Ilya. But what's done is done, the decision has been made. And his resume is impeccable. His performances have been, I know,

the eye test has just been fantastic. He's rarely in trouble. He's one of the greatest defensive fighters of all time. He's the only guy to defend the lightweight title four times, whatever the record is. It's clear.

Yeah, there you go. And yes, and he's making a bold move going up to one-sever. Now, kind of what Damon said, though, if Ilya's defense is against Patty, and even if Islam loses to JDM, now, I guess it would be unreasonable to keep him up top. I guess you have to, you know, I hate when people call pound for pound like a glorified power ranking. But, I mean, considering how fast the game moves these days, it kind of is at times. That kind of has to factor in. Like, we have that recency bias.

So sure. No matter who Ilya beats next. If he wins and Islam loses JDM, I will very likely bump Ilya up. But if not, even if Ilya fought Armand instead, if Ilya beats Armand and Islam beats Jadm, I guess depending how it happens, depending how competitive fights are or how they end, probably still lean towards Islam. So that's my thing. I think my number one thing is almost like what I was saying with John Jones in the all-time argument.

If they fought, if they had fought, I'm picking Islam to be Ilya. I just I do think I would pick him to win that fight whether it's at 170, 150, 155, a catch weight, wherever the spout happens. If it does happen someday, I'm leaning towards Islam. And that's probably the deciding factor for me is I think he wins the 1B1, which again, it should not be the definition of pound for pound. But I'm just, you know, if we're nitpicking, trying to find reasons, that's, that's one, one reason for sure that I'm factoring in.

Jed, you went with the flyway, the short king. Real quick before you go to Jake. Oh, go ahead. If, hypothetically, Oh, Casey, by the way, we should say Casey, you are also a Tuporian, man. You've also said to Poria. Yes, sir. Yes.

If Elia and Islam actually fought and Ollia, no, goes up and weight to a welter way or even goes to weight 55 or whatever, if it was a competitive, super competitive fight, but Islam wins, would you do one of those things where we kind of did where we had Volcanowski higher pound for pound? but behind them in the actual divisional ranking. I'm one of those people because I was one of those people that had Volkanowski above Islam pound for pound wise after the first fight. This is why I never got, this is why I never knocked Islam for saying he didn't want to fight Ilya because he's like,

you're not going to give me credit for it because you didn't give me credit for being Volk. And I say you're absolutely right. I agree with him. That's why I said I thought I thought I thought Ilya should have come up, fought one fight, and then fought Islam. I was on that train. but now Ilya has a legit win over Charles Olivera. So now that argument,

so now if they fought it's different. If they would have fought just like last weekend, I would have understood that argument because you're saying you're still beating a featherway. But now Ilya has a legit good win at Lightway. And also, I just want those out there, by the way, AK you mentioned it. Had Islam beaten Armin in January and not Hinata Moikano,

I'd probably still have a number one. But unfortunately, Boycano just that win doesn't, I mean, yes, it's a title of the first. defense, but if it was Armin, I think he would still be number one. But unfortunately, he got Moikano instead. So that's also, I didn't mention that, but that also played a little factor into why Islam's run wasn't quite as much to me. And that's not his fault.

But yeah, if he beat Armin, I think that would have been more meaningful. Sure. Jed, I told you. I feel even better about this than I did when I did it. I have, I've really, like, I think that it's right. I will fully acknowledge that when I initially made this vote, like 90% of it was that I just believe what I'm about to say. And the other 10% was just like, I think this is fun. And we should do fun things.

And he deserves to be rewarded for being on an incredible run right now. But as I actually dig into this, I'm like, yeah, no, this is, I'm just correct. And Pantosia is the true and deserving number one pound for pound fighter. because he is the only person on this whole list, save maybe Marab de Vylaishvili, though we can talk about him in a second. And if I have one regret, actually I would bump Maraub up one place on my current ranking

as I've come to this. He's the only dude who's actually cleaned out his weight class because that's just what happens. Josh Van is his next challenger and Josh Van is the next generation. But of currently ranked, not previously ranked at like current ranked guys, Pantosia has 11 wins over currently ranked opposition. I believe it's seven different fighters in the top 15 that he has wins over.

Obviously, a trilogy of wins over Brandon Moreno, who I have ranked in my pound for pound list, I think is an incredible fighter. Now he's got two wins over Kaira France. He's got two wins overrador. He hasn't just beaten everybody. He's beaten them a lot. And that is, to me, that is what this is supposed to signify, really. is like who is the most dominant champion of their weight class and Islam he is the longest reigning in terms of number of title defenses champion or male champions in the sport right now he would be

tied with Islam Islam obviously vacated his title but the knock on Islam that we have said in this podcast and others and it's not his fault is he fought two featherweights and then hanahtra morcano and dust and poir who we all love and respect but is that what does that win in 2024 mean how good is it whereas Pantoja like you can quibble that flyweight is a bad weight class because that is a popular thing to have done for the entirety of its existence as a weight class I I don't buy that and it kind of doesn't matter when you have 11 wins over ranked dudes nobody else is close to that marab is like the next closest guy and Pantosia and like Morab is really poised to move up if he goes and like starts finishing people like we just saw him doish with Sean O'Malley he's

undeniably moving up in my rankings. But right now, just the body of work consistently done. Like he holds, if we're taking this even bigger picture, he holds like a million flyweight records at this point for like strikes and finishes and stuff like that. 35 fights never been finished in any of his losses. He is, I know it's not like a real stat, but he is the first 125er to break the 35 and up curse for weight class champions, whatever. I got, he's not going to hold this forever and he's not going to hold it for long but I absolutely think he deserves

to hold this spot now. Now if Islam goes and wins against Jack, Islam bumps back up for the record. I actually did move to Puri in front of Islam for all the reasons sort of elucidated. This current run is just it's worthy of respect and it's great. But I think Pantosia deserves to have the top

spot right now but because nobody else is going to nobody else going to give you this. This is a jet original. when Drickas duplice beats the shit out of Hamzot Shemayev, he's going to move to my number one because that run, that run is sick. Finishing Whitaker,

beating Strickland, finishing Isie, beating the shit out of Strickland and then finishing Hamzot, buddy, I feel real good about putting that dude at number one when that happens. And honestly, I think that that's how pound for pound should be. I know you said you don't really like it being in power rankings.

I actually think that that's sort of a better way to do it, of like who is a because all of these people again it's just like the goat conversation you're having to nitpick to to sort of separate who you think belongs at the top of this when all of these people the top six seven dudes are accomplishing so much in the sport it's it's incredible and i'm happy to fet to these people to give them their flowers because a graphic went out this week showing there have been 10 pound for pound men's champions in history and noticeably absent from that graphic is George St. Pierre because his title reign was concurrent with Anderson Silva, who was always above him. All of us on this pod agreed that George is at worst, like the second

greatest fighter ever, but he never got to hold that spot because Anderson had it. And since Anderson didn't lose, he just kept it forever. I got, screw that. Let's have a little more fun. Let's let this be a little bit more fluid of a thing. And I think Pantosier deserves it. Yeah, we have sometimes like people love talking pound for pound like in general uh i think us though we we sometimes get tired of it we just think it's so meaningless sometimes but this is the i would say right now is one of the most fun electric eras we have had to have discussion because you're right all the way from one to five like ddpc dd p div is an amazing even tom aspinall like i know we're talking about like he just doesn't have the competition but if tom aspinall is like the rattles off six set like

because he could let's be honest if tom asphalt sticks around he's only what 31 or 32 if he wanted to he probably could rattle off like 10 straight tail defenses That's something happens. Yeah. No way to do that. There's a real point that needs to be made about Tom Aspinall. And I made it maybe on BTL last week. I don't know.

I made it already. But mostly I want Casey to hear this because it's important that he does. I understand. No, and this is not to be mean to Casey, but just like as a genuine statement of what I believe to be fact. I understand that heavy weights don't get pound for pound love historically. And I even understand heavyweight is an atrocious weight class. That like if Tom.

Aspinol isn't going to get love, then it can never be achieved. Because he's not edging out wins. He's killing dudes in 60 seconds. There's literally nothing he could do better because he can't go down a weight class. All he can do is kill these guys in under a minute. And at some point, you're going to have to be like, screw it, man. I or just be like, yeah, the max any heavyweight can ever get is eight. And that's just life in the weight class, I guess.

Maybe like that better. I agree for you, Jed. I agree with you. It's just John Jones has prevented this man from achieving that. And what you said is true because I'm a big believer. What you said, like the title defenses, where you are number one and every single person in the world is kind of training to beat you, that means a lot. And that's kind of, I'm going back to DJ. That's why I love DJ as far as my goat because of all the title defenses.

But yeah, if Tom Asma does that and I'd be. believe he can do that, yeah, it will have to, my, my thinking for pound for pound will might have to change. You can just carve out an exception for him. The time of the one. Because it is just dominance of the wins. It's not just the dominance. Well, that's the dominance matters.

It absolutely does. But I always go back to a level of competition. I think that's what's doomed Tom is going to continue to doom Tom because heavyweight is absolutely dreadful right now. Like, it is the worst. probably its worst it's ever been. Wow. And that's what's doing.

And to your Pantosha point, I think Pantosia deserves a lot of credit right now, but the problem I have is like, if you didn't have him ranked this high before 317, that I don't think you should bump him up after because I don't think beating Kikar-France really counts for much. Like Kai-Car-France is one in three in his last four fights. And Kai-Car-France's biggest wins,

I'm looking at his, I was looking at his resume like two seconds ago. His biggest wins, Steve Ur-Seg, which is what, I guess, quote, unquote got him the title shot. Ascar, Ascaroff, he beat up Cody Garbrandt, who was obviously never really a flyweight and should have been down there. Ogerio Bon Torin, Tyson Nam,

Mark De La Rosa, like these are the guys that Kai Kar-Francess wins over. The guys he's lost to, Amir al-Bazi, Brandon Marana, Brandon Morano, Brandon Morano, like the guys who are actually at the top of division, he loses to everyone. So I'm not saying Pantosia's amazing. I think Pantosia's incredible. But when we did our post

317 article, I said, I don't really learn anything. I didn't already know about him because Kikar-France had no business being in there with him. He didn't. Kikar-France was, he was defaulted into that position because they had no one else to put in there with him.

That's the only reason he got the title shot. Chad, you have something up your sleeve? 11. I can't even say it on one hand. That's how many wins. And I don't think that this is a great argument, but I didn't learn a single thing about

Ilya on Saturday, really. I thought he was going to kill Charles and he did. I've known that dude is real goddamn good. And I was like, yeah, okay. Okay, okay, but, okay, but just to that argument, Charles Olivera, Kai, Carr, France. I mean, what's a more meaningful? What's a more, what's a more meaningful?

I mean, I'm just saying, like, what's the more. But again, this was not a, here's an individual thing. It is the totality of his career. And that's what he is, but that's what I'm saying like. He looks incredible with doing it too. It was just. Pentosa is amazing. It's unbelievable.

How good he is. Pantoja is amazing. I think Pantoja is running into right now. He's running into the DJism because when you look at Kai Osakora, who is not like he, again, that was getting a shot by default and he's not really high weight. You don't respect flyweight.

And just say it, David, you hate small people. Hold on. Casey, Casey, can you put up the flyweight rankings real quick? You just put the flyweight rankings. And Jet already run these out.

I'm not going to do the full run down again. Jed already ran down like it's so, like how many ranked guys he's beaten. Like that's what makes it so crazy. So I'm not. And by the way, Ted, thank you for counting.

ultimate fighter fights, the most important fights of all. Really more important than championship bouts, I would say. So, yes, listen, he is beaten, and there's a couple of guys here, like, are not in the organization. Yu Yuwakamatsu is, of course, not in the UFC, but very good flyweight. This is crazy. He's beaten almost everyone less. Imagine if he adds, I'm just saying, imagine if he adds Josh Van. Imagine if he adds Manel Kopp.

We think that's going to happen someday. I'm not saying. But he'll fight, but he'll fight him and Horgo. Him and Horgochia said many times at the fight each other. Pentosia is a winner of a menel cop. You're forgetting that. he has a winner. Oh, that's true.

But if he beats him, I mean he beats him again in a championship bout. I also think that this version of cop is like the best version we've had so far, minus all the injuries and ability to get in the cage. So I'd love to see that again. Josh Van, it looks fantastic. Yeah, he's probably like, you know,

maybe too young, but. Mackaya, Messiaekeye comes back. I think, Pantosia is amazing, but I think Pantosia's best wins came a little bit earlier. Like he beat Roy Val, he beat Moreno a couple times,

Manel Cobb. Those are, those are the wins why I put Mentotian at top four. I can't remember where I ranked him. I think I ranked him number four, number three, pound for pound. He's absolutely right there. I guess these last couple of wins, like Erseg was a bit of a flash in a pan, sorry to say.

Kai Asakura, again, getting it to by default, and then Kai Kar-Frances, one and three is last four. Those three to me didn't, I mean, they just, they just continued to show his dominance of what I already knew he was for beating Brandon Royval and Brandon Marina. Those are the wins to me. That's the way. No, and it's also, you hang around long.

I'm hearing. That's what I'm hearing. Listen, you hang around long enough. You're going to have some, not clunkers, but like, you know,

some title fights that don't have a lot of shine on it. But then he dominates those clunkers. It weren't, sure. Although the airspace, the sea, I love this dynamic. Yeah.

I love that Casey hates heavy weights and Damon hates fly. It's really nice type of me. Guys, this is why our rankings panels the way it is. You see, it's perfect. It's perfectly balanced. It's perfectly balanced.

Uh, thank you guys. Again, there really is no definitive answer. And like Jed said, It could change in a month. That's 319, what, August? Right.

It could change in a month. We could have, drink us to a place. See how the first place vote next time. We don't know. For all the hate I have for flyways, apparently. Let me just say, and I said this on Saturday night last week, Alessandrae Ventosia versus Joshua Van is already one of my most anticipated fights. Like that finally gets me like super excited for him because I was not excited.

I'm sorry. I was not excited about Kai Kar-France. I knew it was going to happen in that fight. If anything other, if anything other, other than what happened on Saturday night, I would have been shocked out of my mind, but it played out pretty much exactly how I thought I would. Joshua Van, though, that's going to be a lot of fun.

Thank you, guys. A lot of pound for pound greatness talk. But as we sign off here, I do want to look ahead to maybe the hottest division in all of MMA rankings-wise. I want to give people sort of a look ahead to, of course, that's what I mean. I'm sorry, men's divisions, men's divisions.

Fair, fair. I'm trying to think when we'll do our next ranking show probably will be at the end, of August or early September, I'm not sure. But by then, we're going to have a lot of middleweight talk, guys. It is officially hot middleweight summer. Almost every guy in our rankings.

Wet t-shirt contest, let's go. Almost every middleweight in our rankings is competing, with the exception of Sean Strick and Izzy Adesignia. I'll read it off real quick. We got number one, DDP, and number two, Kamsat Shemayev. Number three, Nasar Dino Imov, and number six, Kyle Bahalio, that just got announced for USC Paris.

Coming up soon. Number seven, Robert Whitaker. Number 10, Rhino de Ritter. Number eight, Anthony Hernandez. Number 13, Roman DeLizze. Johnny Ablin's back. Number nine, Johnny Eblen, batting Costello Vancinus at PFL Africa. Jerichaneer just got a fight. Number 11, he's fighting Michael Page, who's ranked at Welterweight. Number 12,

Brendan Allen versus Marvin Vittori. Number 14, Paula Costa versus Roman Koppelov. Fingers crossed. And number 15, Fabian Edwards, continuing in the PFL tournament versus Dalton Rosta. Do you like 185ers, guys? Do you like middleweights? Do you like middleweighting millilweights?

This is all we're going to be talking about next one. This is all the kids are talking about, talking about the UFC middleweight division. And PFL and PFL. I talked about, sorry, mentioned fighters and other organizations as well. So exciting stuff. But I can't wait to talk about it. It's a pleasure, as always, guys.

I think we answered a lot of questions about pound for pound. Oh, Jed's waving. I thought Jed wanted to make a final point. So thank you, Jed Mishu. Thank you, Day Martin. Thank you, of course, E. Casey Leiden, the greatest producer. How could I forget? How could anyone forget E. Casey Leiden?

This is Alexander K. Lee signing off. And remember, everyone, no matter where you rank your favorite fighters, just remember, you always rank number one in our hearts. Bye. Love y'all. Fade out, Casey. Fade out, please. Fade out, Casey.

Yeah, no, it's you're way too close. We're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.