MMA Fighting - Rankings Show: Is Jon Jones, Tom Aspinall, Or Francis Ngannou The True Heavyweight King?

Episode Date: November 21, 2024

Jon Jones is back. So is Francis Ngannou. And Tom Aspinall? He’s been here all along. So with all three big men scoring pivotal wins in 2024, who is the one true king of the heavyweight division? Is it Jones, the relative neophyte who is just 2-0 in the weight class, but still carrying the aura that comes with being undefeated throughout his career? Is it Ngannou, the lineal heavyweight champion who left the UFC without ever dropping his belt? Or is it Aspinall, the man who defended an interim heavyweight title while Jones sat on the sidelines waiting for a Stipe Miocic fight that lost intrigue with every passing day? Theoretically, there’s no wrong answer, but the MMA Fighting rankings panel of Alexander K. Lee, Damon Martin, Jed Meshew, and E. Casey Leydon give their best arguments as to why each fighter has a claim to be No. 1. Follow Alexander K. Lee @AlexanderKLee Follow Damon Martin @DamonMartin Follow Jed Meshew @JedKMeshew Follow E. Casey Leydon @ekc Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome, guys. Welcome to another edition of the Rankings Podcasts. And maybe fighting sort of breakdown of the movers and shakers of the MMA world. Of course, as you guys all know, we do our own independent rankings here in the campaignings. So we're not talking about the UFC rankings. We're not talking about any other websites, rankings.

We've got our own numbers. You can find those. MAP fighting.com, put that ranking section. And we're not, like, this episode is going to be a little different. Normally we'll record one of these guys. We'll give you like, oh, well, here's the big move at Walter Wade. Here's a big move in light. Hey, we've got a number of topics.

But today, we're really just trying to wrap a bow on a discussion that's kind of carried over from episode to episode. Of course, we're talking about the state of the top of the heavyweight division. Now we had to wait for the first domino to fall this past October when Francis Nganu finally returned to M. May. He was victorious. And then we knew the next domino would be John Jones returning to bite Stephen Mocchich at Eurc 309. And now that is also passed. And of course, we've had Talmashtonel sitting this whole time with the interim title.

And he also has a title to Defense after his belt. So I had to bring together great minds to kind of wrap up this discussion for 2024 at least. I want to say provide closure on it. But so that remains to be seen. I'm actually curious how I was going to feel about it. So joining me first is the great, I had some questionable nicknames last time, guys. I didn't get a great feedback of something. So I'm just going to say, hey, look, it's Damon Martin.

No, no delicious Damon anymore. Jesus, I was waiting for that one. I mean, I don't have to call you that, but I'm just saying that doesn't mean. Anyway, Jed, go, Jed, Jed, Michelle is here, guys. You'll always be delicious to me, Damon. Just wagging you, Damon. That's really what you are. Thank you, Jen. I appreciate that.

That's very appreciate you. It's high-grade day. We spent like three minutes of the last podcast just reacting to AK's nickname. Yeah, we don't have time for that today, but again, that does not mean people cannot use these nicknames. I think they're still very viable. And, of course, producing is the great E.KC. Light.

He's so hot of people. Hi. Very happy beer. I can't wait for this fun, exciting, highly intelligent discussion we're about to have. Yeah, because that's exactly what it is. Because you know why it is? Because we've got facts now, guys.

We've got data. When I first brought this up, I can't remember if we had everyone on the panel. I know last time we covered the, I think after the Incan, when Damon, I think you weren't here after the PFL battle the Giants. I don't think you were on the show.

Am I mistaken? I was on the last one, but not that one, no. I was on the one after. I was on the one after UFC 308. Yes. Okay, right. So we haven't had like quite the group of people I wanted because again I

the way we're setting this up today guys oh I should probably tell you what the what the rankings are I'm sorry it's classic classic working mistake so first we had the pad for pound rankings earlier this week we're not going to dive too much into that I don't think we need to you've got probably seen the list on our socials by now you've seen at mfay.com John Jones had been removed he had been inactive for 18 months

that is our deadline for removal and then by the time zero nine came out had actually been out for 20 months So he had been off the list. He came back in on the pound for pound. And number eight. Nobody tell Dana White. Dana White has probably had him. I mean, he's had him in number one this whole time.

Never took John Jones off. John Jones is victorious. Made a great short work of Stephen Miotich. And so he probably stays there for the UFC for us back in number eight. Behind, of course, Tom Aspinall, Drickus Dupacep, Balaamah, Al-Mohama, Al-Mohama, Al-Mohama, and our top three, Alex Pideta, Ilya, and Islammachachchev. So pretty far down the list, I imagine we'll get. get some reactions to that.

But really today I want to discuss with Damon and Jed here, the heavyweight rankings, because surely you guys must be thinking John Jones at least has a case to be the number one heavyweight. He is the undisputed U.S. champion, according to the promotion. And he's still never lost. He's only fought twice at heavyweight, but he's got this undefeated streak going back ages now. He came in, our consensus vote here, he came in at number three, number three in the heavyweight rankings. He's behind Francis and he is behind our number one.

Tom Aspinall. So I'm not going to just go and ask how do you guys feel about it. I want to tell people we are each going to pick one of these fighters. Why should I pick for them? And we're going to make a case. Why is this guy number one right now? Francis and Gunn, coming over a win over Hanan Ferreira, Tom Aspinall coming over a title defense against Curtis Blades

and John Jones haven't just beaten Steve Amyoogic. So, Damon, we're going to start with you. We have assigned you John Jones. Now, I will tell people you do not have John Jones number one in your rankings, but you do have John Jones higher than the rest of us. You have John Jones at number two. Now, leading up to this card, Damon, I wasn't sure. I can't remember if you had said in a previous show, your plan was to return John to the top

no matter what, but that would have been like months ago. A lot has changed since then. So I know you have number two, but make a case, why can John Jones be considered number one? Well, so again, this is twofold of the whole rankings conversation because my rankings are typically more based upon wins and losses. It's not really as much based upon who I think would win fights. But I did inject a little bit of the Jedmishu formula in here, which is, you know, who do I think would win if these two guys fought each other,

skill for skill, and that does tend to kind of play a bit into Jed's rankings. I don't want to speak for Jed, but I think he would back me up and say that plays a factor in his ranking. So I kind of took a little bit of both in this particular ranking. Again, I had Jones at number two, not number one. But I think when you look at Jones two wins, now, weirdly, steep A wins means less than the Cyril Gondwin at this point because Stipe, 42 years old, off four years. All-time legend, absolutely, probably not the same steep that he was in 2017, 2018. So I think we can all recognize that watching that fight on Saturday night.

But I think the Cyril Gondwin is still very, very good in the way he dominated him and finished him so quickly. And again, Cyril Gahn is still ranked very highly by everybody. and that's everybody's rankings, not just ours. Like our rankings are the best, of course, but he's ranked top three or four by pretty much everyone universally. And Jones ran through him in three minutes. And that's better than Francis did against him. That's better than anyone has done against him.

So that to me, it was really just about him being active again. Does taking out Stipe, the way he did impress me? And we got to a certain extent, he still has to go out there and do it. He did it. And, you know, I mean, it wasn't really that close of a fight. But again, he's active again. And so Jones having that dominant winner over Cyril Gahn is one factor. And the other one is the Jedmishu factor, which is if these guys fought, who do I think would win?

I'm less, I'm less on board with Jones beating Aspinall, although I would still probably pick him to beat Aspinall right now. But I'm much stronger of a case to believe that Jones would beat Francis because Francis doesn't really have the wrestling, doesn't really have the grappling as much as Jones does. I think if Jones took, if Jones took Inganu down the way he took Steepa down in that, first round. I don't think it makes it out of the first round. So that's a little bit of my base right there. So yeah, that's where I would put Jones there. Again, I have number two technically, but if I was going to make a case for number one, I would say based upon the Cyril Gondwin, which is super impressive the way he did it. And then you take in the factor of who would win these fights. And I think he would be favored pretty heavily to beat Francis. And even though I have

Tom number one, I would still probably lean John to beat him right now. Will that change a year now or if they ever fight i have no idea but right now i would put john jones there uh i don't want to turn this to a full on debate but we can certainly have some some rebuttal uh jed before we get to your without jumping you know right into why your guy who we're going to talk about a second is the best what are some of the holes you have in jones's resume as far as him being number one at heavyweight well i ranked john jones at number three at heavyweight and i did that almost exclusively because I did not want to have the fight I sort of thought would come if I did that. Peeling back the curtain.

This is, you know, well, inside baseball here for the listeners and viewers at home. I have on occasion been reached out to by the powers that be, AK, to correct some rankings issues that I may have. you know, just ballparking it. Let's say I didn't rank Brian Ortega because he sucks and I don't like him. And AK was like, you have to rank Brian Ortega. Wait, hold on. You didn't want to rank him after what fight? Oh, I think it was after the Galli Rodriguez fight.

But it wasn't after that. It was after that fight, but I pulled him from the rankings when he'd all the shenanigans at whatever that was, UFC 300 or whatever. All the Diego Lopez shenanigans happened where he blew weight, then pushed the weight back, then still couldn't compete because he got sick from the weight cut and was specifically saying, I'm going to fight at lightweight now.

I was like, then fine, you're out of my featherweight rankings. But ultimately, I acquiesced. I put him back in. I felt that I may have something similar happen here if I didn't have Jones near the top. Certainly no one's going to tell me you have to rank number one, but to put him beneath and, Alexander Volkov, Curtis Blades.

Hold on. How low would you have gone if you hadn't had this hypothetical conversation with that? I would have put him at seven if I was being all the way 100% true to myself. And for like a very clear reason here. He has not done anything in this weight class. And that's like it is that to me entirely. I believe I'm less confident, frankly, the judge. John Jones I watch compete at U.S.

309, I am, I'm going to guess he would beat most top 15 heavyweights. But the steepe Mietich that he beat at 309, I do not think I would pick to beat anyone I currently have ranked at heavyweight. And if it was anybody, it would be like,

is Tai Tui Vasa ranked in our rankings? Like, maybe he beats Tye and I wouldn't even feel massively confident. I take, and I mean this with all sincerity, nothing from that win. I set it in the lead-up that this was a meaningless fight. And when they fought, I felt confirmed in my beliefs that Stipe Mietich is a dude who's been out for four years

and was retired and is 42 years old and simply isn't at the level of competition anymore. And that is what my eyeball showed me on Saturday night. And it is a meaningless win in terms of the heavyweight picture. If you want to say it's a legacy win and all-time, sure you make that argument. To me, it is the same as if he beat Fador. Terrific. No one cares. And so his heavyweight resume is entirely built upon Cyril Gahn. Good win, unbelievably good performance.

I'm not taking this away. But I currently have Gahn ranked eight because Gond has been so inactive the last couple of years. He hasn't fought over a year now that he is starting to move down because I do favor activity to some extent as well. And so I would have Jones in front of of gone. And like I think to me that is the big argument to placing

John Jones at number one. Do you want to do it because he is the UFC champion and you just think that the undisputed UFC champion gets it? Okay. I think that's a flawed methodology. If you want to do it because you think he'd beat every heavyweight out there, I think that is a better methodology, though I would disagree with the point.

But you can't put him at number based on accomplishment in this weight class, not pound for pound, not all time great. At heavyweight, his level of accomplishment is substantially beneath several other people in this weight class. And he is only number three in mine by virtue of frankly thinking people would lose their shit at me if I didn't happen there. That's a good point. I think there's a part of you, Jed, as well, that knows you've made the right decision.

I think when you landed number three, you know you've done the right thing. I do not. We're in agreements. We're in agreement, and that can't be wrong, I think, is what they always say. Because I, you know, I would, like Damon said, I would also factor in the Jedmishu, you know, theoretical fight. I would weigh that as part of it. And I would certainly, like, I'm looking at your list.

So if you had put him down at seven, he would have been behind Curtis Blades, Paolovich and Polkov, like all good fighters, but I would pick, I would pick Jones pretty comfortably over all those guys. I still think Curtis Bones is a really intriguing matchup, but I would, I would comfortably pick Jones to beat all those guys. So that's for me why I think putting him at three was easy. Like that was an easy spot. But yeah, I can understand why you might be conflicted based on the pretty

non-existent body of work in the division if we're being illistic. I would pick him to beat all those guys. I would not confidently pick him to beat. Like I would confidently pick him to beat Jailton Almeida. Like I really, really feel very confident John Jones to beat Jailton Almeida. And I believe he would beat Curtis Blades. I'm fairly confident. though I've always thought

that that would be an interesting matchup if nothing else. Pavlovich probably beats him. I feel okay about it. Volkov, I don't know, man. Yeah, Volkov's a tough matchup. Volkov might be a really tough matchup for him just stylistically because John wants to do

point fight karate guy against a dude who's eight feet tall. And if he doesn't shoot the takedowns, Volkov is actually pretty good at defending those. Not great. But like, I would pay him. pick him to beat all those people, the higher up my rankings go, the less confident I would be in him beating them. I, and just to, just to throw this out there, like, and I actually totally respect what Jed said about

even ranking of a seven because you have Cyril Gaon at eight. Now, I disagree with Cyril Gahn's ranking because Cyril Gahn has a dominant winner of Rolkoff. I think he's going to beat him again in about three weeks. He has wins when he does. Yeah. When he does, John will go back up. It is strictly because he has not fought in. And I.

months or whatever. And I actually appreciate you said because like you having gone lower because I like we all have like I was curious where we all rank Max Holloway after knocking out Justin Gage. We all have Max Holloway in that top five at lightweight and that's based upon basically one win really. I mean, that's not he's not a lightweight and his other lightweight fight was a loss to Dustin Poree at least recently. But we all put him in that top five and and rightfully it's based on one win but it's rightfully so. I respect you saying that like you put him above Cyril because you have zero ranked lower. I have serial ranked higher.

So that was me saying, like, I can't put him lower. And I, again, I did the eye testing where I think he would beat Francis. So that was kind of like the, you know, I, I, this is, this is the point of contention. I know you said, like, you wouldn't pick Steve to beat a lot of people.

I still think, sorry, NFL and I'm about to get a message from Don Davis because he's probably secretly listened to us right now. I still think beating Stevie Amy Oitch is a better win than beating Hain and prayer right now. Um, so, you know. Objectively untrue as Hinn and for Hara is ranked, I believe by us and Steepa is not.

Where would, where would Steve A, if Steve A didn't retire after, where would you guys have? I'm trying to think. David, he'll be a, Chad wouldn't have. Yeah, Chad wouldn't have. He has a courtesy top 15. It has no wins over. It would be a courtesy.

If you were doing it, it is strictly a courtesy. Yeah, it'll be a courtesy number 15. Wait, Casey. Hey, hold on, let me ask you real quick. Casey, Casey,

Miotich or Rook, then. Oh, ooh. Don't, don't do it. Ah, it's not so easy.

Not so easy to give that, that number 15th spot is it now with a beautiful little Rougouthug sitting there, is it?

All right, I won't, Damon, go ahead. I'm just like, I'm looking, I'm looking at my rankings right now and like,

here's the problem with heavyweight. Heavyweight is a bit of a waste land when it comes to, like, when you get so like i listen i i'm not even let you know again i know i know i'm the ohio guy i'm the stepe guy i love stepey one of the all-time grace he did not look good on saturday night he looked old he looked slow i said this in my recap it looked like he was walking in

it looked like he was walking in quicksand the entire fight that being said when i look at the bottom and having that top 15 i'm like hean frera derrick lewis who has not been good in a while tied to evasa which i'm like how i don't even know how i still have ranked didn't he lost like nine in a row. I have Nimcoff in there because I think, again, that's more based on potential than actual results. Rosenstrike, who is, yeah, very hot and cold. I mean, Tebor had a decent enough win over a guy who's not really that good.

Spivak, so it's like weirdly, like, I don't know. I'm not saying I would put Steve at like number seven or anything crazy like that, but look at the bottom of that list. It's pretty rough. I also probably not have ranked him, but just because he was inactive for so long. who do I think he could be here? I actually would still like his chances against like Thai.

I don't think Derek Lewis is that much. It sounds crazy. I know, I know Mayotra's look super bad against at Yosey through and I, but I do think that was a combination of him fighting John Jones and him also being 42 and not having fought in three years, not having one of fight in four years. So there was some mixture of that.

But I feel like if he were serious about like still competing for another couple of years, skill, like I would pick him to be like Derek was probably. I would pick him to be tied to him. What? Probably. I would pick him to be Ty. I don't think, yeah. I don't think that's going to live there.

Derek Lewis just feels like a 50-50 fight. So does fill the freeze. Like we have Rosen, I don't have Rosen. I mean, Steve, Steve has a winner filled out. Let's not forget about that. Steve has a winner of place. I did, I did forget. Yeah.

Wow, we are going way back. We're going on the record. If you wanted to rank him, I think you could to me it would as Casey said it is a courtesy ranking he has the no wins over active UFC

fighters he has a win over in Gano but we also saw the rematch he hadn't fought in four years it would entirely be a courtesy thank you for all you've done ranking in my mind and I know this I know this sounds like a ridiculous way

to like compliment Stepe but like the fact that Stepe actually got to a third round with Jones like and here's i know this again this is i'm not saying this is right i'm just pointing it out if jones had fought any of those guys in that list none of them would make it out of the first round like he would have taken every single one of them down and bludgeoned them like the fact that stevie somehow survived that first round is still amazing to me because he was on the bottom with john jones dropping elbows on it for like four minutes and he somehow got out of there i'm like

still amazed that actually happened i we should i i'm not 100% sure on that one but i to me when that first round, Steve, he just looked so old. He got taken down so easily. That takedown that John got, that's just when you're slow for, you're just slow. And the fact that when he hit the ground,

he just had nothing on his back. I mean, and the fact that the biggest thing, the biggest takeaway from Steve to me from that fight was like, well, Steve Bay is really tough. I'm gonna, like, and these other guys just aren't as tough. That's, I mean, that's, I mean, I don't know where we're basing anything on

with that fight. It's just like how many shots he can get hit in the head. I don't know. I'm just, I got nothing from that. I'm just basing on the heavyweight is bad. So, oh yeah,

was good and maybe still has enough juice to beat some of the bad guys. But again, to be totally clear, like my, and as I said earlier, just to be totally clear, like my ranking of Jones back to number two is based way, way more upon the Cyril Gondwin that it is the Steve A win.

It's more just like he's active again. So I'm putting him back to basically where I had him before. I had him number one before. I'm putting him a number two because Aspinol has done more since then. Like I, as much as I value the gone win, and it is a good win, I think being, you know, beating blades and beating, you know, the guys that Aspinall is beaten in such dominant fashion just kind of trumps that in terms of overall wins. That's just, and we'll find out soon enough because Cyril Gone's going to wreck Alexander Volkov and then Cyril

God's going to fight Tommy Aspinall next year because, you know, whatever. So we'll find out next year. Real quick. I just kind of want to say, like, I kind of ranked Jones as kind of a middle ground between both what Jed and Damon said, where Jed kind of doesn't take into account his 205 dominance and Damon does. And I kind of feel, huh? You shouldn't.

At Heavyweight? No, no. This, let me say, I believe, because Heavyweight is such a bad division, I believe. I believe most heavy weights are just light heavy weights who aren't dieting. And that's essentially what John is right now, just a light heavyweight, not dieting. That's why I still think he would be the best 205er and the best, like, basically fat two of fat heavyweight. But that's why I have Nagano and Aspinall because those guys are to me are like the true heavy weights. And that's why I'm very, very happy, I'm very confident Jones is a solid number three behind.

Aspen on and Francis. I want to tell people, Stepe was number eight in the UFC's official rankings heading into USC 309. It was a very weird ranking. It was like it was almost like he suffered. I think he suffered some sort of just rankings decay at some point. Did he ever leave the ranking?

He never, he never left the rankings. So if for the last four years, you had gone to UFC.com to check their rankings. I mean, after the first year, fine, probably two years later, I can't imagine looking and going to be like, why is Steve Bay still ranked? Three years in, it just looked absurd.

And then by the time we got to play night, it was like, what are we doing? So, and again, it was just kind of, they looked like they split the difference. Like, okay, we can't make him top five anymore, but we still have to list him. And so eight, it came up this very bizarre, like eight. I would love to see a graph, a graph. Like, I assume after he lost, he lost the, he lost the Francis, he was number, he was the top rank. Number two, I assume. Yeah.

Or number one. A contender. Yeah. And so, like, each three months, he kind of went one spot down until we eventually ended at eight over four years. No, I think it happened. No, I think it happened drastically. I think like he was like top five. I could be wrong, but I believe he was like top five probably until like last year.

And then they were like, oh, wait a minute. And then the fuck up his phone and they're like, we should probably drop a little bit. I think that just, I think that honestly, I know this sounds terrible. I think that says a lot about how bad heavyweight is. Because I look at my rankings and I'm like, once you get through that like top seven, it gets pretty rough after that. So like I'm not saying it's justified, but I'm just like I kind of get it because heavyweight's a bit of a waste land when you get out of top five or six. So again, and that's just what happens when you don't have an inactivity clause.

I don't think they have any guidelines unless the fighters no longer. Unless they're not the roster, then they tell you, oh, you can rank them anymore. That's it. Otherwise, if the fighter is alive and breathing and still on the roster, apparently you can rank. Or if there's a contract dispute. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Damon.

Damon, we gave you the toughest job because we should say again, the cases that Jed and I are about to make are for fighters that we ranked number one. Damon did have Aspinall number one, but, you know, he had Jones the highest number two. had him, uh, B. R. Jones man. He's big, he's a big John Jones guy. Welcome aboard Air Canada. Rocky's vacation here we come. Whoa, is this economy? Free beer, wine and snacks. Sweet. Fast free Wi-Fi means I can make dinner reservations before we land. And with live TV, I'm not missing the game. It's kind of like I'm already on vacation. Nice. Air Canada. Nice travels. Wi-Fi available to Airupy.

on equipped flights sponsored by Bell. Conditions apply. See air Canada.com. It was the night before the gathering and all through the house. The host rapid cozy cashmere throw from home scents for their spouse. Kids toys for $6.99 under the tree. And crystal glasses for just $14.99 for their brother Lee. A baking dish made in Portugal for Tom and Sue and a nice $5.99 candle perfectly priced just for you. Happy holidays to all. And to all a good price. Hom Sense, endless presence, perfectly priced. But, Jed, we'll go to you next.

You also do not have Tom Aspinall number one. You have one Mr. Francis Angano, the lineal heavyweight champion of MMA. So probably not hard to make a case, but Jed, I'd love to give you time to just wax poetic about Francis, PFL star, Henan Fedra conqueror. And again, maybe the true king of the heavyweight division.

I don't know, Jed. What do you got to say? So it's a combination of a lot of the points Damon made with regard to John, honestly. For me, like, Francis was number one, had been number one in our rankings and fell out because of inactivity because he was doing the boxing thing. And I think that's fair, totally reasonable. And I don't think you had to reinsert him at number one when he came back. As most didn't, like, you know, I think there are two of us who currently have Francis there. but his return was really good.

If he had come back and looked like just trash against Henn and Fahedo, okay, you know, maybe I would have said, all right, the time is past Tom's there. He didn't. He looked really good. He finished Fahedo with ease early on. And even with sort of the totality of everything going on, the emotional sort of outburst after, kind of telling you how much, like how hard this was for. him in the circumstance of his life and losing his son.

And I am not certain by any stretch of the imagination. This Francis Ngano is as good as the one who was the UFC heavyweight champion and left. I think that he's probably in the same ballpark, but that's really, really speculative because there's not been a lot of MMA for him lately. But ultimately, if you, you know, to Damon's point, I do tend to rank on who do I think wins a fight. matched up Francis against anybody. I think I would pick him. I would not feel confident doing it, but I would pick him against John Jones, particularly after UFC 309, where I thought John frankly looked old and slow as well. And I would pick him against Tom Aspinall, if only because Tom has showed us so little in his career. It is exclusively first round knockouts. And Francis Ingan, who is very durable and has a lot of ability as well. And so I don't know if, you know, Tom gets hit. I don't know if he can get hit by Francis would be okay.

Wouldn't be shocked if I was wrong on both counts and if Francis was actually should be the third heavyweight. But ultimately, he did not lose that spot in the cage. He will lose it eventually and probably sooner rather than later if either John or if John and Tom fight, the winner of that will be the number one heavyweight in the world. I suspect that won't happen. And so ultimately, I think what will happen is Tom will just surpass Francis with one or two more performances because Francis will not, does not have other options against ranked dudes.

But at the time, I think I had Fahedah like 11 or something. So it is a ranked win. I still have Faheda ranked. I think he is not amazing, but in a bad heavyweight division, he is a capable opponent. And so I am giving him the respect of what he has accomplished in his career and having been the number one guy and only losing it to an activity and then returning with a good performance. Like I said, if he returned with a dud, a stinker, if he has to get a wrestle heavy performance to get the win, okay, we'd probably go Tom Aspinall. But he's done

enough. And I don't, I'm just not like, I don't feel like it's necessary to put Tom at one yet. Tom's day will come and probably very soon. And like I said, if Francis or if Tom and John do end up fighting, that'll be in no doubt about it. Very easy. The winner of that is the best every way in the world. And we should say you had had Aspinol at number one previously before Francis came back. So it's not like you haven't had Tom at number one before. Yeah, I had Tom at one. And that, like, I was comfortable with that.

Tom took one over when Francis left our rankings. And so this is, you know, like Damon said, he did with John. This is basically Francis is taking back his spot because I do not think his performance warranted him losing that spot. But I also, so we're clear, I don't have any issues of people. not putting, I get the arguments against it. I am just choosing not to adhere to them at this point in part because I still would pick Francis over anybody, at least right now. That might change in a couple of months, but right now I would still pick him in the fight.

Damon, you had, you had and gone to the lowest out of the three of us. You had Francis at number three. So give us some of those arguments against him that Jed kind of brought up. What do you think? Why can't Francis be number one? This is like the least argumentative podcast ever because I don't really tend. I don't really disagree with what Jed's saying because I had the same argument for John about why I put him back at number two. I mean, Francis really, again, it just comes down to inactivity and I don't.

I mean, yes, I did have Hayden and Ferrer ranked, and I still think I haven't ranked like 15. But, you know, I don't know how good of a win that is because like when I started examining Hayden Farah before that fight, I kind of forgotten that he had gotten just drubbed by like three or four guys in a row before coming back and winning like three fights to get the Francis and Ghanu fight and knocking out a light heavyweight and Ryan Bader to get there. I just, I don't value that win all that much. And it's, and again, I understand, like I said, you just said, I don't really value John's win over Steeper that much.

But again, I'm playing the comparison game. When Francis fought Cyril Gahn, which is his last true quality win, he went five rounds. And I know Dana says crazy stuff, but he's not totally wrong in saying that if Cyril doesn't go for that arm bar, he might win that fight. He might because Francis was fighting on one leg and a torn ACL through that fight. It was close. It was, you know, it was 48, 47, I think if I remember correctly, wasn't the greatest fight in the world. John Jones Blue Thurham in three minutes. And again, I know styles make fights and, but you have to, you have to, when you're getting into like the nitty gritty,

you're just comparing, you know, bits and pieces of a fight. Like, you know, how did it play out? and Francis needed five rounds and barely got through Cyril. John Jones needed three minutes and tapped him out. And it wasn't close before that. John took him down. It was dominating him and then got to get him to get him and choked him out. So that's really where my argument goes with John over Francis,

just doing the comparison of the one opponent they have in common. And again, because I still think Cyril Gaon is pretty good in the heavyweight division and probably will be the guy to get the next title shot if he beats Wolkoff at OC310. So that's really it. again, but I'm not, this isn't like an impassioned plea of saying, man, you're so wrong. I'm just like, yeah, I get it. Like, you know, I don't really have an issue with Frank. When Francis came back, I put him in number two.

And the only reason I did that is because Tom Aspinall, to me, has more quality wins in a row over the last like two years, whereas Francis had been off and then came back in box for a year. So, like, he's basically had two years of inactivity, MMA. So that's why I put him in number two and not number one, because Aspinall had more quality wins. So it's kind of the same thing here where it's just like, Like, it really gets down to that one fight. And to me, Jones beat Cyril better in more dominant fashion. So I put Jones ahead of him. All right.

Jed kind of already explained that it's very likely that Francis just is going to kind of gradually slide out of the spot. But I want to quickly ask you guys, is there a way he can hold onto that spot outside of the UFC and without both Jones and Aspinol suffering like some dramatic drop off? Is there a path that he can, he can, you know, make to retain the. number one spot not not forever but let's say by the end of 2025 is it is there is there fights he can get that will like will be like okay he's still number one by you know heading into 2026 what you guys think either of you uh i'll i'll say this like he kind of unfortunately

francis to me is falling into patchy mix territory like i think i had patchy mix ranked number one at bantam wait for like maybe one ranking cycle and then you know marab one and then marab it just got too it just got too bad i couldn't continue to put him in one. I think I dropped in down number three or four now, just because, and I think Francis is going to suffer the same fate. Like, I think the only way Francis, I know this sounds terrible, he's going to have to fail into number one. And what I mean by that is, is like, Aspinall would have to get wiped out by Cyril gone and John Jones just eventually falls out due to inactivity, which I think we all kind of imagine is probably what's going to happen because unless they,

because, I mean, he can find Alex prayer tomorrow. I'm not going to, I'm not going to care that much as far as heavily goes. But yeah, he almost, he would almost have to fail upward. because other guys lose because, I mean, Dennis Goldsoff and Alec Polp, was it Oleg Popoff? Like what, huh? Come on. Yeah, like, he's just, he doesn't have. He's the baby. We popping off in here.

He's in, he's running into Apache Mixed territory where it's like Apache had a great run where he's being Sergio Pettus and he beat MagaMed, Magamette off. Like, he had good wins. But now he's down to where he's fighting like guys that aren't even remotely close to being top 15 bantaways. And it's just like, I can't count that as highly as Barab de Wailish really taking out Sean O'Malley or even Peyodor Yan taking out Devis and Figurado if that happens this weekend.

Like those are just better, demonstrably better wins. So Francis, to me, has to kind of fail upwards. I know that sounds terrible. But that's to me, like, he can keep beating up the cans. And only if Aspinall and Jones, like, lose or inactivity will they fall out of there? That's, I know that sounds terrible, but that's the way I look at it. No, that stands right. Like there is there is not a world where francis and gano reclaims the number one heavyweight spot in our rankings outside of tom aspinall losing like that's the only way it will happen at this point in time and that's fine and like that i think we all knew that like we knew when he signed with pfl that it was a matter of time before he left the top spot whatever the circumstances would be uh i think if he had you know and y'all will have to know because obviously he's

I ranked him number one, but y'all didn't. And I am curious if y'all, if the timelines had worked out where Francis was never forced out of our rankings per inactivity, if y'all would still have Aspinall in front of him, or if this was just a clean cut, and now that he's back, he's where he's at, I don't know. But I think ultimately, we all knew that this was the outcome for Francis when he left the UFC. Jed, a picture of 2025 where each guy only fights once, Tom Aspinall fights Citiolgan, he wins once, beats Cedilgan, John Jones beats Alex Padeta and heavyweight bout and Francis beats Roug-Rug at the first ever PFL Africa.

Who is your number one heavyweight at the end of the year? In a vacuum, that sounds like Tom Aspinall. However, I think at this point it will come down to performance, just how impressive they look in there, because the margins between them are so. small that I want to give Francis his flowers. I want to give him his credit and respect what he has accomplished and not punish him for saying, I'm not going to, you know, fight under the draconian strictures of the UFC, which by definition, he gets punished for that. By no longer competing in the UFC, the rankings will, he will just suffer in that regard. I would like to not to mitigate

that punishment as much as possible, just because I think that his decision. to leave was not because he was afraid, but because he obviously understood his worth and that that worth was being provided elsewhere. So ultimately, Aspinall, like just in a vacuum, it's Aspinall because just one more win probably gets it done for him. But if it's a sketchy win,

and you know, it's rough, you know, maybe he barely beats Cyril Gan or Volkov or whatever wins a specious decision. and then Francis just kills Oleg Popov. Yeah, all right. Francis gets the kid. Excuse me, Roug, Roug in the scenario. Well, if he kills Rugg-Rug, then I don't know,

because I'm still torn up from what Rugg-Rug did to my boy. Look at how he mastered him. Dominated him, Jen. Take downs in one of the worst fights in a literacy. But yeah, so like I think it will just be performance-based, but it is a matter of time. If Tom Aspinall continues to win, he will take the number one spot in my rankings.

Yeah, I had the easiest job here. So, again, we don't need to deliberate on this too much. But I will defend Tom Assel being number one, not hard. He's our consensus. Four out of our six panelists have him number one. He's got the resume. All the three guys are talking about over the last few years. Of course, he has the best UFC resume.

I might be overlapping with France here. I can't remember if they were when they were in the company together. But overall, eight and one in the UFC. And we're not talking about some bulky eight and one record. like he has beaten several ranked names. I should probably go over them. Curtis Blades, his only loss, and it is a freak loss, right?

To freak knee injury in the first 15 seconds that fight, redeems himself and pretty definitive fashion. 60-second knockout of Curtis this past July. Sergei Pavlovich, Martin Toborah, also a guy who's been in the top 10, top 15 forever. Asa Novolkov, top 10 guy. Sergei Spivok is in the top 10 right now. Jed, your heavyweight goat on Jarolovsky.

it's been a hell of a run for Tom Aspinall. And so again, it's really easy to make a case for him. Tune into any show for M.M.A. fighting over the past really year, BTL, the rankings show, onto the next one. And we're talking about Asperall is number one. We're talking about how badly we want to see him by John Jones. Projection-wise, he just looks like a guy who has a chance to beat anyone in his division. I still see people questioning his ground game, which is fair, which is fair.

He is often touted as a very strong grappler, but a lot of fighters are touted as having certain skills before they actually get to show them in the cage. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I am a believer. So for me to rank Tom number one, really there was no problem at all. He crosses off pretty much every checkmark again.

Accomplishments, how do his performance look slash eye test? And then, yes, would he theoretically beat the people on the list in a fight? John Jones for me, definitely one of the bigger question mark. We were talking a little bit before the show, and I will say, as much as we kind of dog Jones, his persona, how he's handled this Tom Aspinall situation, how he handles life in general, his choice of opponents, you know, what I would you make of the Miochich fight? He is still, I think, very clearly when it just comes on a skill for skill basis, one of the best in the business right now, maybe the best ever. and if you put them in there with Tom Aspinall and I have to bet on the guy to save my life,

I'm probably picking John Jones. I've also seen bets that are out there from some websites where I believe John Jones is the underdog. And I'm not a betting man, but in that situation, give me John Jones a dog money against anyone. I'm taking John Jones all day. So I had to discount that a little bit

when I'm making my Aspenol pick. And the fact that, the fact that Tom Aswell has even made me like consider that this guy could realistically beat John Jones. Like, if Stevie had beaten John Jones, we all would have been shocked. I think if Cedell had beaten John Jones,

you wouldn't have been shocked at the time, but you certainly would have been like, you were like, well, I didn't expect it. I think we all picked John, right? If Tom beat John Jones, there's like nobody, I think, who would be surprised with that result at this point. And that, to me, says a lot about why he could,

why for me he's the true number one heavy way right now. But go ahead, Jed. Oh, I just wanted to, because you mentioned it, on the overlapping run for Ngano and Aspinall, almost not overlapping run. So Inganu fought Giardino Rosenstrike in May of 2022. Two months later is when Aspinall made his debut against Jake Collier. Inganu has fought twice in the UFC while Aspinall fought there. And if you take the January 22 defense against Cyril Gan, after that

Aspinall has fought five times five times since the last time that, uh, for instance and gone and fought. Basically the entirety of his run as like a legitimate guy up the ranks. Just prior to that,

he beat Sergei Spivak, who was ranked at the time. Uh, but then it is the Alexander Volkov win. That was the win that really put him on the map. The Curtis Blade's injury, which was supposed to be like, here's the catapult to title contention.

And then the three run of Taiborra Pavlovich-Blaz rematch. So there's, they truly almost didn't overlap, and they didn't overlap in any meaningful way realistically. Aspinall was barely a consideration as a future contender by the time Francis was already done in the company. Yeah, and that's certainly true of Jones as well, who again, who has only competed twice in the last like four years. So we really haven't had a chance to look at each guy's career like alongside each other. Like you can compare them, but it is, it is kind of funny that there was no overlap there but i'm sorry to that point you may get a k about like the the fight itself like i just said earlier like if you put them in a cage

together right now i would probably pick john jones to beat tom aspinall mostly because there's just a bigger body of work to judge by because i think john i think tom aspinall is absolutely legit but there have the one concern that gets raised with him is he's just first and second round finish he's only been in the second round once and that was arloffsky everything else has been first round and the ground game thing i don't really jive with that because i mean he tap out Alexander Volkov with a straight arm bar on top. He's straight arm barred his ass. Which is the weirdest submission.

That is one of the hardest submissions to get from side control. It's a big man. So I don't question. But listen, like it or not, I do wonder, like, does he have the gas tank?

Could he go into a dog fight in the fourth, fifth round? I don't know. I mean, I think he's that good, but there's just not the body of work. And again, I know Jones hasn't done it a heavyweight,

but there's just enough body of work of Jones in general to say we know how talented. and good John Jones is at his best and at his worst. We don't know that about Tom yet. We just don't. Like, we don't know. Like, what happens when he gets tagged and put down? Can he come back?

Can he have a bad night at the office and win a five-round decision? So just little, little tiny things like that have me kind of like leaning Jones in terms of like matchup-wise. But the thing with Asplon, why, and again, I know I'm the John Jones defender. The reason I still have Tom Aspenal number one is when you look at his resume, I mean, again, I'm not saying Sergey Spevac's amazing, but Sergei Speedax looked pretty good lately and he, you know, tapped the beat him in 230, taps out Volkov with the straight arm bar,

Volkov's been on a good run. Tybora is not a bad, that's a pretty good win. You know, not great, but pretty good. Tablovich, I'm going to top 10 heavyweight for like almost a decade at this point. Yeah, and like Pavlovich, I know Pavlovich lost the stinker to Volkov, but before that he was absolutely, he was doing what Aspenol

was doing. He's knocking everybody out. And then, we all know, unlike the curse, for years, I've said Curtis Blazing, I've given up that dream by the way that Curtis Blaze is ever going to develop in that because when it comes into big fights, his fight IQ goes flying out the window. But it's still a great win to beat him in a minute flat. So yeah, I still put Aspinall gets the nod for me because he's the accomplishments. But one on one, I still lean Jones. Like right now, just based on their body to work, I still lean Jones in terms of a fight. But you're basing up because Aspinall is so good that no one's gotten

to the third round with him. Yeah. And the guys who beat the good. The guys, the guys, Yeah, the guys he's beating are good guys. Like, you know, like, I can't, like, as good as I think the Jones winner of Cyril Ghan is, it's just like the multiplier, like Blades and Tibura and Pavlovich and all those wins. Like that to me trumps it a little bit. But again, one-on-one, if you're asking me to pick right now, I'd probably still pick John Jones just because I think I know more about what he's capable of than I do Aspinall, as good as Aspinall has been.

Aspinall is so good, Casey, that he retired John Jones. without ever actually fighting him. So say what now, John? I'll be scared. I think AKK might be trying to talk. That's why you guys weren't stopping. I was trying to interrupt you and I was like, why are they not listening to me?

Well, there are many reasons for that, but. We were having fun. We were having fun to clocked like a chicken, a Jonathan white gentleman. Casey, I wanted to go to you last to make the last. case. Rook, Rook, why is he your number one

heavyweight? Go ahead. Let's tell the people. So we rank him, right? So one being the worst heavyweight and 15 being the best. Yeah, so,

yeah, Rugger was electric in the Malikin fight. He heard him. He's got a hell of a chin. You got to give Rung Rugg that. Malikin teed off on his ass for a long time.

And Rugg was just like, all right, bet. A, I think, Malikin won that fight, but that's neither here nor there. I agree. The set,

I don't know if you guys saw this because I don't, I think it was a settled knock on Malikin because Malikin have been calling out in Gano. Did you guys see the photo in Ganu posted with him and Rugbrug together in Africa? Because he's obviously from Senegal and Inganu's from Cameroon. They were both in Africa and he took a photo with Rugbrug and said, celebrating with my fellow champion. So I think that was a little dig on, dig on Malikin because Malikin had been calling him out.

But yeah, so I think I don't think we'll ever see Robuggan and Ingano there. They are, they are, they are, they are friends. I don't think we'll ever see Rug Rug and in Ghana. You got to do it for Africa. PFL Africa for sure. That should be all of their focus. They have to do it. They have to. If there's any good to come from this screwy decision that four Malikin had to take, it has to be leading to Rugrug and Francis. Casey, I'll tell Bill now. You are the other panel. We have two panelists who voted in

gun number one, one was Jed. The other was yourself. Did you hear anything today that maybe like swayed your opinion in the direction that made you say, oh, maybe I should, Maybe I should have voted Asphal or next time we do the rankings, I'll do Asphalt. Maybe next time I'll do John Jones. Anything, anything compelling? I honestly have, if I had a 1A, 1B, I think Aspinall and Nagano are right there. I'm just very, I'm very confident in my pick as Jones number three, more than anything. Yeah, it sounds crazy to say it.

Again, we'll remind people, I'll do a quick recap right now. We have John Jones number eight pound for pound. and number three on our heavyweight ranking. So again, a lot of people aren't going to like it. But, you know, one reason we do, guys, one reason we do these independent rankings. John down the pound for pound. John, we don't want to get, feel, if you want to know, five out of our six pamphal, let's put John back at pound for pound.

And someone didn't. You can go to Myflying.com. I am dragging him to the bottom of the ocean like a rusty anchor. I was honestly shocked. He was still eight. when I knew you weren't going to put it, I'm like, oh, my gosh, is the math going to make John fall out of the top 10? And, like, Denver really going to have some plane to do.

But I think eight just felt right. And conveniently, one spot right behind Aspinola, which that was hilarious. So I'm like, this is it. This was meant to be. What's really, what's really hilarious is for all the just nonstop complaining that Dana White does about John Jones, not being number one in their pound for pound rankings. John Jones puts out the tweet saying, number two at 37. That's pretty good.

like he doesn't care and like the englander thing like i i i i think i know france is decently well i don't know him great like we've interviewed a bunch of times but like i'm sure he's looking at the rankings right now and just falling asleep on his piles of money so like you know i don't think he really cares he's number two like yeah and uh you know what if he loves being number two pound at 37 john guess what number three at heavyweight that ain't bad either so i bad uh i want to think i like heavyweight i want to think uh jett i want to think dame and of course i want to thank Casey for joining me on this week's episode. I think we did it, guys.

I think we finally, after like, again, this is like a three-part discussion, I think we finally settled who the number one heavyweight is. So you don't even need to say it because everyone listening is like just nodding their head. Like, oh, yeah, we know what conclusion they came to. So, oh, yeah, it was, it. Can I, can I do it? Because I've never done it before.

I've never done it. Yeah. Tommy, Tommy Aspenol. Tommy, Tommy. Again, I didn't say anything. I didn't say anything. So thank you gentlemen for the discussion.

Thank you everyone for tuning to the ranking show. And remember, whether you agree with us, whether you disagree, you guys are always ranked number one in our hearts. We'll see you next time. Behind RedGGG. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Unwrap holiday magic at Holt Renfrew with gifts that say I know you. From festive and cozy fashion to Lux Beauty and Fragrant Sets.

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