MMA Fighting - Rankings Show: Jon Jones or Francis Ngannou — Who is the No. 1 Heavyweight in the World?

Episode Date: March 7, 2023

Jon Jones or Francis Ngannou — who is the No. 1 heavyweight in the world? The gang is BACK to wade through the wreckage of another crazy weekend at UFC 285 and make sense of what Jon Jones' violent reintroduction to MMA (and violent introduction to the heavyweight division) means for the bigger picture. Co-hosts Shaun Al-Shatti and Alexander K. Lee are joined by ol' pals Jed Meshew and Damon Martin to debate Jones' place in the heavyweight ranks (around 8:16), where he stands among the current pound-for-pound crop (around 36:42), and much more. They also hit on Alexa Grasso's unbelievable upset over Valentina Shevchenko and where the new champ ranks among the best fighters in the world today (around 1:00:53). Follow Shaun Al-Shatti @ShaunAlShatti Follow Alexander K. Lee @AlexanderKLee Follow Damon Martin @DamonMartin Follow Jed Meshew @JedKMeshew Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Boarding for flight 246 to Toronto is delayed 50 minutes. Ugh, what? Sounds like Ojo time. Play Ojo? Great idea. Feel the fun with all the latest slots in live casino games and with no wagering requirements. What you win is yours to keep groovy. Hey, I won! Feel the fun!

The morning will begin when passenger Fisher is done celebrating. 19 plus Ontario only. Please play responsibly. Concerned by your gambling or that if someone close, you call 1-8665-3-3-2-60 or visitcomex-X Ontario.ca. Unwrap Holiday Magic at Holt Renfrew with gifts that say I know you. From festive and cozy fashion to Lux Beauty and Fragrance Sets, our special selection has something for every style and price point. Visit our Holtz Holiday Shop and store or online at Holtrenfrew.com. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.

What is up, my friends? Hope all you out there having a great start to your week. Ooh, I don't know about you guys, but we are taping this on Monday afternoon. reeling from this past weekend. What a night we had on Saturday night. This is why you love the sport, y'all. This is why we devote so much of our freaking time to this sport to MMA.

And we're going to get into all of it today. But yes, this is the MMA fighting ranking show. My name is Sean O'SHoddy. I'm joined as always. My co-captain. The King in the North, the Prince of Darkness, Alexander K. Lee, AK Baby, there is nothing like that post-paper-view glow.

Can you feel it? How are we doing today? Listen, for the purpose of this show, I mean, we always talk about ranking shakeups, Shaheen. And I'm almost too shooking up. Like I expected, I think a lot of us expected the main event, of course, regardless as who won, we're going to shake up the ranking somehow. And the majority of us thought that women's pound for pound, the whole flyweight picture

was going to be pretty stable. I think we all thought that, you know, Aaron Blanchfield might someday be the ones to stabilize that. But now I've got, I didn't even have time, Shaheen, to react to what happened the co-mate event before John Jones is walking out for real. I mean, I had been saying for months that fight wasn't even going to happen. But listen, they booked it pretty quickly. Didn't give a lot of time for too much shenanigans to happen in the months between the booking and actually and fight night.

And he's back. John Jones is bad. It still sounds weird to say. I've seen it. I saw him do fight week. I saw him do media. I saw him step into the cage. I saw him fight.

I saw him dominate. I saw him holding a title. I saw him do post fight. I still almost can't believe that he, that he's actually back. But sure enough, you know, you can always go home again, apparently. And I feel like we're almost in the time warp with him back, Connor coming back, Henry Suhuda coming back. But we'll deal with the rest of that later right now.

It's, man, it's John Jones all day, every day right now, I guess. Not only is he back, but like he might actually be better than ever. Like, he might actually be better than he has since, like, 2013. Like, this is the first time John Jones looks like John Jones, since a half decade ago, at least 2018. He hasn't had a first round finish since 2013 against Chale. And then, you know, that was Chale. Like, this is just a new version of John that we really haven't even seen.

But we're going to get into all of it today. Of course, though, we're not alone on this journey, aka rest of the panel here this month into our own little peak into the MMA fighting global rankings. You know these guys. First, the legal eagle, the man who I, I mean, hopefully he isn't about to be evicted from his house after I know what was a rough night on Saturday. I hope he's doing well. Jed Mishu and, of course, the OG, your friend and mine, Damon,

how we doing, fellas? I'm probably better than Jed right now. I'll say that. I know Jed had a rough one. I'm doing fine, guys. What is dead may never die, and y'all all wish you were me because you all have these expectations

and these hopes in your lives that really restrict you moving forward, whereas I'm free. I've lost it all, and now I'm free to do anything. So really, who's the loser this weekend? Not me, I say. It's the rest of you. Look, man, Jen, you were on the watch party with her pal Mike and Connor.

I've had a lot of concern, let's just say, directed my way for you in my life. I've had texts from various people, DMs, Slack messages, wondering if you're going to be okay, if you are okay. the people need to know, are you going to be okay moving forward? Is this recoverable? I'm doing great, you know? Sure, bad weekend. Can't pretend that that wasn't the case.

But I adhered to the most important rule of gambling. You just never bet what you can't lose. And then you can't ever get yourself in trouble. No one's going to come breaking my knees or taking some fingers. I just, you know, start over again. And I'm feeling very cheery about it. Worlds of opportunity. And now I'm unburdened.

I no longer have to hold to Valentina Shivchenko and believing that she's the greatest female fighter of all time. I'm free to pursue other avenues. Let's go, Aaron Blanchfield. You're my new muse. New chapters, baby. New chapters here in 2020. All in on, cold-blooded.

Let's go. Can I, can I, can I, can I take a real quick victory lap as someone on Twitter reminded us the other day over A.K., I tried to tell you, A.K., what would happen in John Jones fight? You didn't listen to me. And someone had to remind you of that fact on Twitter. So I'm just saying, I'm just taking my victory lap here. I told you John Jones was going to run roughshod over Cyril Gone. I was right. Just saying, I'm just saying.

I did pick John Jones to win, just for the record. It's not like I didn't pick Jones to win. I just probably thought it would be a little. You picked the way of a boring fight. Yes, you did. I don't, did I say boring. I said,

I said, I thought it'd be convincing. I don't know if I said, I thought, oh, I did worry that it could, yeah, I said in a worst case scenario,

you know, I was afraid of like, it could turn out, like the Dominic Ray's fight or the Anthony Smith fight or the Diagos Santos fight was kind of intriguing in its own way,

but yes, yes, I thought it might look like some of his recent light heavyweight performances and was, looked nothing like that. Like you said, she looked like nothing we'd seen in like the past 10 years

of John Jones performances. Well, fellas, let's get into it because, of course, I mean, this is basically the John Jones show today. This man came out and I think blew away every possible expectation for even his most ardent supporters, right? Like, he comes in here. Celebration almost in a weird way last week was of John Jones and sort of who this man represents at least within the cage.

He's outside of the cage factors. He's a real piece of work, but we don't need to get into that. Like, he just in cage, he means something to a lot of people. and he again, as I said in the top, had his best performance, maybe of his entire career, at least of the last 10 years, at least in the last like eight years.

Like this was just a version of John Jones. We have not seen in a long time. This is not a guy who is known to be this crazy finisher of late. And he comes out here and he just sparks out Seraghan in two minutes and it just wasn't even competitive. I compared that fight in my post-fight column in a weird way to Connor McGregor versus Joe Zola. though in that. Obviously, it wasn't 13 seconds,

but it felt, it left you with that same sense of wonderment and almost being unfulfilled because it felt like the fight ended before it even really started and you didn't actually get a sense of how this would play out before it was already over. And so now here we are. It's Monday morning as we record this, probably Tuesday as you're listening to this. And the heavyweight rankings are out for MMA fighting. John Jones debuts at number two at heavyweight,

A.K. and Jed, you two and I both put him at number two. Damon, you zagged were the rest of us zigged. You had Jones jump in France straight to the top, straight to number one. You and the Brazilian beast, both Giermei Cruz saw it the same. And you were the two of the 18 panel who had Jones at number one. The other six of us had him at number two. But you know what, guys, the people. I always say this about you, Damon.

You're a man of the people. They seem to be on your side, Damon. I checked this morning. We have a poll up on MMA fighting, aka I know you love polls. 60% of our readers on MMA fighting voted John Jones as the number one heavyweight in the world on this week's ranking shakeup post.

Damon, I'll go to you first. Talk us through this. Jones number one in heavyweight. Was this an easy choice for you? Was this difficult? Why are you right and why are the rest of us on the website wrong outside of Gareme? Well, it's difficult.

I'm not going to say it's easy. It is difficult. because Francis in Ghana is incredible, and we don't forget about Francis and Gano's body of work. But when you talk about John Jones, his body of work is unparalleled by anybody in the sport. Now you can say, yes, the majority, all of that took place at light heavyweight.

That's true. But to come back on day one at heavyweight and absolutely eviscerate the other number two guy in the UFC in Cyril Gahn and take him out effortlessly, two minutes and change, chokes him out takes him down one take down over Cyrilgan doesn't get back up I've significant strikes that's it doesn't get to do anything

doesn't do anything handles him in a way that no one has handled him and obviously surreal's only other losses to Francis and Gano in the UFC but I'm saying like even even the tie to Evasify which Thai had moments in there it was still no one has done this to Surreal gone and I think we all agree surreal gone is a very very good heavyweight to go out there and do that in that impressive of a fashion and yes I do take into account that when Francis fought him, he did it on one leg, and I commend him for going

out and still winning that fight. But as I always say, this sport is no excuses. You know, you step in the cage. You can't lose or have a bad performance and come out and say, well, you know, I was sick during camp and at an arm engine. You can't Jake Pollitt. You can't sit here and say, well, this and this and this, but no, no. You stepped in there.

You knew what you were stepping into. And credit to Francis were getting the job done, he won. But just based on the other. I test, Jones did to Surreal gone in two minutes what Francis couldn't do in 25. And that to me was the biggest factor because Francis as impressive as his resume is, and he does have a lot of great wins and obviously more of a record in heavyweight, that one fight that is their most recent fight, they shared and John eviscerated him inside of three minutes. And Francis didn't. So again, I'm picking nits here. I'm not saying that Francis doesn't deserve.

to be number one. I'm saying that in my estimation, that's why I put John Jones number one, because he did to Suril Gone in under three minutes, what Francis couldn't do in 25. Can I counter Damon here? Which is, a lot of what you're saying is just objectively true. I feel the need to point out an important piece that is lacked there in that they're not the same fighter and the styles are incredibly different. Like John Jones didn't go out and knock out Cyril gone in a kickboxing match. He took him down and choked him out. And I have full credit for that.

I'm not taking that credit away. But the expectation really never should have existed that Francis could do that because that's not part of his game. And so that's where I, that's where I do have problems with putting John at number one. it is explicitly and entirely putting him at the top of the heap off of one win. We'll get into the pound for pound thing later and I have different issues, et cetera, but if you're putting him as the number one heavy way in the world,

it's entirely off of one fight over the guy who wasn't the number one heavy way in the world. And that's like that's where I draw my line, right? Like Francis was universally the number one dude. John gets one win and he's not, and it wasn't over the one guy, so there's no argument to jump him in that way. I have no problem, obviously, putting John ahead of wherever you have Cyril Ghani in your ranking. It feels disrespectful to Francis and Gano to be like, well, he beat this dude better. Now, granted, you've been knocking out everyone in this division for years, but he beat this one guy better than you,

and you didn't get to fight him because the UFC wouldn't pony up money. That's where I drew the line. That is a real problem to get past for me. A.K., you hold the keys to the MMA fighting, vaunted MMA math calculator. Damon's kind of using the MMA math aspect of this. Are we going to break it out? Is this time to break out the calculator? We don't even need the calculator for this one, because if we're just using strict MMA math,

then that's why Inganu is number one. because a Damon's rationale makes, and Damon's rationale is using, you know, anecdotal evidence, using what we saw with our own eyes. It's going beyond the statistics. We saw in Ganu unable to finish gone. You know, an impressive performance. I still think that that some people hold that against Francis,

that, oh, he wrestled, he had to wrestle him to win. He couldn't outstrike him. He couldn't finish him even though he was, yeah. But, and, but for me, like that was impressive that he got it out, as you mentioned, the one leg thing. And his ability to loathe as I am to admit it, mix the martial arts effectively. And then we have Jones.

We literally just saw this. You know, it's very, very fresh in our minds. Just I said this on onto the next one. That fight was less like, you know, supposedly the two best heavyweights in the world, according to the UFC. And more like, like Mickey Gall and CM Punk. You know what I mean?

It reminded me of CM Punk whipping on a punch and just getting taken down and looking like Bush League on the ground. And that's kind of what happened to God. I'm not saying that gone is bollisdick on the ground. But I think it's, we've got some evidence. We've got some evidence to support that his ground game is not the strongest in the heavyweight division. We can say that fairly. So yeah, so yeah, we don't need the calculator.

Probably. I'm not sure. But we don't need the calculator. Because, yes, if we're just going strictly by who beat who, for me, you know, that in Ghanu fight is still a hill that Joan has to climb. Now, is that the way it's always going to be? Not necessarily. By our own rankings, I've seen people asking on social media, when is Gano just going

to get removed? And it'll be a while, technically, before the whole panel has to take him off. It'll be August, I believe. That'll be past 18 months threshold of not fighting. For me, and I guess we kind of have to, I don't know if we want to get into this purchase yet, but I will say for me, if his next fight is in boxing, for instance, to Ghanu that is, I may bump him down or bump him off entirely even earlier than the deadline than August.

So, well, I'm keeping that in mind. But for now, again, I didn't want to get super captured by the moment. For now, I'm like, I still think Gondon is the best. I had made up my mind before pretty much that he would remain number one, just because it just didn't seem to fare to take him out just because he, this battle with the UFC and not being in the UFC. You know, we always say over and over again, the UFC should not. be the end-all be-all of rankings despite it clearly having the you know top-tier talent in

m-m-ma so i just didn't want to bump him off yet but uh jones did pretty much everything he could to claim that number one spot a two-minute finish against the clear-cut number two guys so uh yeah i don't for me personally i don't know what more he could have done to take that spot but i just i was i was using math to keep uh and maybe maybe i'm preemptively doing this also i mean i i stand by what i said about the seril gon fight but i also you know francis no matter where you have him ranked right now at number one or number two in my case he's living on borrowed time.

I mean, let's just be honest about that. Like whether it's August. I'm not even talking about the August thing. I'm talking about like he can't fight another heavyweight outside the UFC that's going to put him anywhere in the realm of where John Jones can go from here. Like if John Jones beats Stepe, even though Stepe, Miotich is not in the rankings right now,

that's a better win than anything Francis and Gano can do outside of the UFC. I mean, just let's be honest. Like he can beat, he can beat Arjibouler. He has Stepe. He does. But he can beat Ante Delicia. He can beat, you know, Ryan Bader.

He can beat every heavyweight that's not in the UFC and none of those wins. Big Philly style? No. Over. Oh, what if Steepa gives him a good fight? By your own logic, Francis colded that dude last time they scored up.

If Steep fights John real hard for five rounds and he wins another bogus split or whatever, what does it work? Well, Steve already, Steve also mauled Francis over five rounds. upon the time. He kind of outlasted him. David, that's your Ohio coming out.

Yeah, that was like a year's he did that five years ago. What happened the most recent time they fought? Oh, no, he got dead at the last time they fought. Absolutely he did. I'm just saying my point,

I get again, maybe I'm being preemptive here, but I'm being honest and saying that as much, and I love Francis and God. Like I said, I'm not going to get into, I'm not going to get my soapbox about him against the UFC

and how many different ways I applaud him for standing up for what he believed in and leaving the organization and going on into greener pastures. But just the reality of talent and heavyweight, it's already a thin division. He's living on borrowed time, even if you have him number one right now. So I just, again,

I just think Jones, with that one win, was impressive enough to me to go ahead and put him there. And again, I don't fault anyone for having Francis won. But I think we all agree that, you know, his number one slot,

even if you think he is the best heavy weight in the world, is, you know, short-lived. He's got a six-month window. assuming Jones fights again and wins, I don't think anyone here is going to continue to put Francis number one because, again, he just can't fight anyone that's going to keep him there. I will say on that note, the one thing that Francis has right now in his back pocket

that's sort of a factor playing in his favor is the fact that John Jones, at least for the interim, these first few seem will be going through the Francis and Ghana leftovers. Like Francis already beat Cyril God. Francis already beat Steepamioch. like John Jones is just sort of doing the same thing that Francis has already done. So that to me, at least like, it's not as if there is some new guy coming up that Francis hasn't beaten that John Jones will, you know, top over.

I see you want to jump in. Jed, what's up? Well, I'll just say, like with you on that, if Jones beats steep, it's not going to change my rankings for now. If Francis gets knocked out because inactivity, then that's one thing. But I was talking with Casey on the post-fight presser when we were doing that. and I agree that there is a timeline. At some point in Ghanu simply doesn't have the bodies to fight outside.

Like he can fight Bader who isn't a great win, but is still like a top 10 heavyweight per our rankings. Like that's really about the extent like fill the freeze or whatever. But at some point, if John stays and competes for sure, he's going to take over. I have no confidence that that's about to happen. I just don't think that's going to.

Is he going to fight stepe? is he going to fight Curtis Blades? He's not. Does he give a shit about fighting Curtis Blades or surrogate? Like maybe if Tom Aspenol comes back and can get a win and generate interest, but like Stipe makes sense for John as a legacy fight in a fight that matters, does he want to put his whole every, like all of the I'm undefeated goat on the line to fight Curtis friggin' blades? I find that really hard to believe.

Realistically might actually be the tough. fight for John at heavyweight. Let's also be honest about like John Jones when he left light heavyweight, he left that division in shambles in so many ways. Like when we, like it took us to Yuri Perhoshka to finally feel like we kind of had somebody that kind of finally moved out of the John Jones orbit a little bit because obviously Glover, you know, he had to pass with Jones and all those kind of things. Like we kind of, you know, I love Jan Blahovic, nothing against him.

But again, no one really ranked him like saying he was better than John Jones at that point. imagine if John Jones comes in Rex Cyril gone Rex Steve and Mioches and it just pieces out again and then you've got like not Francis not John Jones and you're left with it's going to be the same thing dude like John Jones You know it's really funny that is Curtis Blades

dream because then Curtis Blades will actually get a chance to fight for the title It might actually get a title shot It's just so funny to me like he may just leave two divisions in his in a wake of his absence It might be kind of hilarious And you know what's funny

1000% going to you know what's funny If he does the steep a fight and wins and retires immediately after, or at least in the weeks after before, like before July is through, if this happens in International Fight Week, John will exit our heavyweight rankings before Francis does. Francis will still be eligible. Yeah.

And John Jones won't. That's what's so weird about this whole, this next six months are going to be so strange because, again, there is such a strong case that John Jones is the best heavyweight in the world, but it really could be for half this year. He wasn't going into 23. he might not be going out of 2023 because he might just retire you might do these two fights and

retire but dude he's for sure going he's going to mayweather this he's going to retire and then wait around and maybe come back in a year or two but somebody elevates to be interesting and i don't begrudge him this at all yeah but you there is just no way i'm buying john jones is fighting sergey pavlovitch or whatever like that is just not a thing that matters to him he almost had to on Saturday. We love banana peel away from that happening, Jay. John Jones, I mean, again, I stand by this that I think John's the greatest of all time. I 100% believe when he was fighting Tiago Santos and Anthony Smith and Dominic Reyes, he was bored and had no interest in those fights and just he was sleepwalking in there.

And I think he had a healthy amount of fear for the first time in years because he had a legit knockout artist in front of him and Cyril Gond. No one's going to sit there to say Cyril Gond's not good. Yes, he got dominated and finished. the first round in front of him, but he also had a billion other questions around himself that I think he was trying to answer as well. John Jones is at his best during two times in his career. One, when he's afraid, like when he actually has a healthy amount of fear about the guy he's about to fight or he's got something to prove.

When he's got something to prove, he goes out there and eviscerates, Rampage Jackson, and Rashad and Daniel Cormey and all these other people, or when he's maybe slightly afraid of it, like when he fought Gustafson the second time, a guy that everyone said, oh, John, you might have lost. And then John goes out there and absolutely demolish. him in the rematch, John actually has a healthy amount of fear again or something to prove again. That will go away after Steepa because I love Curtis Blades. I think Curtis Blades may be the toughest matchup for John Jones in the UFC right now.

But is he really going to get excited to fight Curtis Blades? Is he going to get excited to fight Sergey Pavlovich? Is he going to get excited to fight Tom Aspinall? Let's be honest here. Tom Aspinall is the one that maybe he could. If Aspinall comes back and gets a big win and the whole of England is behind him, Tommy talks a little bit of trash Like that's at least a fight

I could maybe believe he could get up for But no He's done after Stipei I'm on this corner The way John has navigated This is actually so masterful In my opinion Because the way

Because I wrote about this in my post-flight calling But coming It's so obvious at this point That this guy is just chasing legacy At this point that none of this else Nothing else matters About stack and title defenses or whatever Like he's just trying to figure out

The most obvious way to improve the legacy to the point where whenever someone does have a goat conversation, it's just kind of impossible to not default to John Jones. And so going back, like this first one, it could have been against anybody. And it would not have mattered because the whole point was to check off the box, UFC Heavyweight Champion, get that just checked off on the resume, Match DC, Matt's Randy Gator. And then the next one, the Stipe won, with a reason John is so adamantly calling for Stipe in this fight, it makes a ton of sense, right?

Because of what steep A means to the UFC heavyweight division historically, just sort of the legacy at stake there, all of it. Like, everything about that is perfect for what John is looking for right now. And that to me is exactly why I agree with what you're saying, Jedd of just like, I think we put the over under on our post-fight show of 2.5 John Jones fights at heavyweight. I could very easily just see him doing the steep at one and then leave him because you're right. At that point, you kind of just have it. You have the check on the box of getting the belt and the check on the box.

of beating the guy that everyone thinks is the best UFC heavyweight of all time? The only way I think he sticks around. And I don't think this is likely, but there is, I suppose, an outside. Well, that I think is just to frankly not going to happen. So I'm not even factoring that in. There is maybe a slim possibility that he looks at the landscape of heavyweight and says, all of these dudes suck ass because it's heavyweight and that's just true. particularly like if Curtis Blades, who would not be a fun fight,

even if I would favor John to win, like that's probably going to be a harder fight. But if Blades gets colded by Sergey Pavlovich, maybe John looks and is like, okay, well, Alistair Overeem beat that dude up, so that dude sucks. I just, if I just stick around, I fight Pavlovich once, I fight one more. Oh, look at that.

I now have the greatest heavy weight. I am now also the greatest heavyweight of all time. because I have the most defenses. It's the only line I see for him to stay is just being like, a lot of these dudes are terrible. And if I can fight Pavlovich and like tie to Ivasa and Allison to Valka

and suddenly be the greatest light heavyweight and the greatest heavyweight, then I'm, as far as I'm undeniable now, I am impossible to deny. It's fairproof at that point. If I am the best of two divisions of all time. There's one person.

That is the world I want to live. You're going to say jailed out made. I am going to say Jelton. I know you're going to say. I just wanted on record. That's all. Your honor, I just wanted on record. I didn't include him so you I wanted it on record.

His name has been uttered in court and that's all. I'm just putting it in the minds of the jury. I'm just putting it in the mind of the jury. That's all. That is noted. Okay. I don't think John's going to be around long enough for Jelton to get a title shot. I think he's going to like I agree with Jed.

If he sticks or- If he sticks around, if he sticks around, If he sticks around, it's going to be to beat Steve A, beat, you know, maybe he beats Curtis Blades. And then that's not, that's to me still the top of spite for him in the division right now. And then he deads one other guy and then he's out because he can, exactly. If he sticks around beyond that, it's just to say I'm the greatest heavyweight of all time.

On top of the greatest light heavyweight of all time, no one can say I'm not the goat of anything. And now he's the go to two divisions. So, yeah, that's the only way he sticks around. Jalton, if you're out there, if you're out there, if you run through Jarzino in your next fight, you better say John Jones's name. Just get people talking. We once had people saying that Johnny Walker could beat John Jones someday or at least get a fight with John Jones. If that could happen, that could happen for you too, Jelton.

Run through Gersino and immediately call out John Jones. I'm not saying he gets it right away, but just get people talking. We'll make the headlines happen. Jelton, don't worry about that. You just got to put his name in your mouth. Jelton, listen to the men. Listen to the men. I just want to say I will, I want that world that you just painted Jed to become true

because to me that is the most, by far the most interesting version of how this plays out. John actually seeing that this is an attainable thing of, hey, I am like only after Steepay, I am two more wins away from just being that guy. From tying the most title. I'm doing this for another 15 months and we're just going to do this and test it out because that is so much more infinitely interesting to me. than what John is sort of planning right now if he just did this steepy thing and then walked away. Because to me, I don't want to say that would be the same as GSP being a middleweight champion because he beat Michael Bisbing.

It's not quite on that level. But it's kind of similar in that you really handpicked a nice spot. You kind of got in and got out without having to fight the actual guys who were there, like the Jacqueray's at the time or the Rockholds or whoever else was sort of going on in the division at Welterweight or middleweight at that point, the Yo-O-Romero's. like GSP really manufactured that in a nice way and I don't want that to be this because this is so much more like whatever

I still have so many more questions and to be and to be fair and to be fair and this is something Anthony Smith said to me when I had him on my podcast last week John wanted Francis like let's be clear about that this is not John ducking like he's doing it because and we can all be honest to say he has a he has an easier path now but he wanted Francis

like he 100% wanted the Francis fight. That being said, I know he wanted Francis, but now that he didn't get Francis to diminish Francis in the way that it seems to already be happening in front of our eyes, both from John and from just sort of the UFC and from the MMA fan base as like, well, Francis matchup doesn't matter anymore, that type of thing. That bothers me. Because to me, that is, if that fight doesn't happen, that's the Habib Tony of lightweight forever for me at that point at this point because that to me is so important from a historical perspective of what it could mean for both guys what it could mean for john what it could mean for mma history just as a

whole like that fight has to happen it will it's never going to it's not going to i think there's a chance i think the mom of the standard white said francis and god is never coming back i was like 98% sure this is this will this will happen someday well francis i just don't think francis is going to come back yeah francis and francis just said today like in his little video he put out a reaction. He said, I wish it would have happened, but it will probably never happen. He said it himself. So like, I don't know, man. A lot of things can change. He's going to scratch that boxing edge. He's going to scratch that boxing edge and come back. I love Francis. I like, I adore Francis, but also, we also got to talk a little bit about longevity. Like, Francis just got, like, he just got

got to the top in the last year and a half, like beat or two years, whatever it is, beating Steve and then beating Cyril. Like, it's not like he's like the light. It's not like he had to. the legacy built around him that say Kane Velasquez did when he was on top and all that kind of stuff. So I love Francis, but like he is, he is the other guy, but time passes, people are going to move on. Like, let's just be honest about that. They already are.

They already are. You mentioned the poll Shaheen. And then if people just go and see some of the responses to, on social media to like, the graphic we put up of, uh, of the updated heavyweight ranking showing that Francis above John Jones, it's at least, again, this is anecdotal. do an exact count. 50, 50 minimum. No, no. It's like 80, 20. Forget Francis. We're done with Francis. Francis doesn't fight the UFC anymore. Francis is non-active fighter. Why is Francis even still ranked? So, Damon, you're not wrong. This is already happening. It's so predictable, man.

He's already being erased. You see what they're doing, guys. They're not. It's so crazy. Yeah, they're not. Oh, okay. Well, John hasn't fought for three years. And I'm not here to say John was ducking Francis. I will note that for our all of John's statements that Francis ran away from him, John just chose not to fight for three years. He could have moved his happy ass up to heavyweight at any point during that time. And suddenly when Francis has a blown out knee and then is not going to be with the org, okay, now it is time for me to finally step back in the cage.

Like, you've seen what they were doing. Okay, we're not going to get Francis back. Here's the brakes truck for John. All of Dana's previous statements about how Francis will never have, or John will never headline. vent again and you can't trust him. Was there a whiff of that on Saturday? No, John is the greatest fighter of all time.

Everybody's the golden boy again, man. He's the golden way on the broadcast. Whether they were pointedly told, which I would suspect or not, was, I can't deny it. He's the goat, the greatest fighter ever. John, now that you are the consensus greatest fighter of all time, like this was a hard, pointed push from them saying, our heavyweight champ has left us and this sucks ass. But we have this guy and we can just play this card. And in a week, everyone will forget because we are, we are this and he is on his own.

And that's, I would also be straight up to bring this back to the original topic point. I would be lying if I said to you that there is not a piece of me that says, Francis gets to stay number one heavyweight because F, the UFC and all this bullshit that they drop this lot. Like straight up. Like I'm not here to play the U.S. of just moving this man to the side. I believe that he deserves it for all the reasons that we outlined previously, but there is absolutely a piece of me that's like there was nothing John Jones could have

done to have supplanted him because the way this has all gone down and the pointed attack at Francis, it does not sit well with me. So I'm glad you brought that up because that was the way I wanted to end this version, this sort of part of this conversation, which also I'm glad you mentioned consensus because at some point down the line, we should have a whole show talking about what consensus means, because it feels like no one actually knows what consensus means. Someone just needs to tell John Anick that the definition of consensus. I love John Enick. I think he's great at his job, but he uses that word to mean the guy I like the most or the guy I am supposed to say. It's not

just not consensus. It is not just John. I love John to death. That's not just the John thing. It's a UFC thing talking about consensus. But just real quick, one word answer, because Jed, even already answered it. So AK, I'll just go to you because Damon, I already know where you stand on this. Was there anything that John could have done on Saturday to be the number one heavyweight for you today? Yes or no? Look at this pause. This is just a tremendous pause. Is Damon frozen?

No, no. It's the AK. Oh, this was the AK. Oh, I didn't. I thought I already said it. I thought it was to Damon. Oh, okay. Let's edit. Let's edit that. Okay. So that was just dramatic as all hell. I thought you were really aeronating in it. I thought he had a little pregnant out. You know what he could have done

on Saturday to become the number one heavyweight? I fought Francis and Guyon instead and beaten him. There you go. So the answer is no. I think the answer for me was no as well. So let's just move on. If he power bombed Cyril out of the ring

or the cage, okay. Like if you literally hoist his shoulders and just heaves him into the crowd, then sure. This was pretty close, though. This was pretty close. The way the fight played

out this is pretty close. It was a spiritual power of mind. What if he crazy horse fatted at it and picked him up and spin him around a bunch of the cage? I would fight to the death claiming that man is bettering his fighter both in the heavyweight division and of all time. Well, let's move on because one smaller aspect of last thing for this Jones conversation because I think everyone has sort of already mentioned it a little bit in our conversation

about this. There is one part of this whole thing that John already jumped over. Francis for us in one regard. Three years away, this man comes back. I was always curious how John was going to factor into just MMA community's overall pound for pound conversation.

Regardless of result on Saturday, I just always was curious how this is going to play out when it comes time to insert him back in these rankings. Because for everybody, UFC, us, everybody, we all took him out for the most part because he's just gone forever. We have our answer now, fellas. For at least our website,

our eight-person panel, John Jones, vaulted straight back into the top three of our pound for pound rankings this latest update. He went from unranked right into the number three spot, only behind the two men we just talked about last month, Islam and Alexander Volkanowski. But here's the weird thing. Because of the point system we use, John actually ended up having the most first place votes. He was tied with Volcanowski for the most first place votes. Three of our eight voted him number one.

Makachev only had two first place backers. Meanwhile, Francis is sitting out there at number five, well beyond all these guys and also below Leon Edwards. So Islam, Volk, John. I'll get to how the individual voting shook out in a second. But, A.K. Jones at number three. I see you rubbing your eyes. Did we get this right? He's number three.

Balkanowski number two, Makachov, number one. Okay. I don't mind it. I almost wish we had gone either way with it. either, well, you're so conflicting. So for me, I mean, again, for me, MMA math, I just couldn't put him above Francis.

Now, there are exceptions, I will say, and we might, I don't know if we're going to have time. We're going to talk about sort of what happened with the women's list, where I didn't really follow this MMA math so directly. But I, because I didn't put him, remember, I did not have him above Francis heavyweight. Then logically, I really couldn't put him number one. Yes, yes, I understand.

If you're putting Jones number one, obviously you're counting the body of work we've seen at light heavy weight, which is again, which remains untouchable. It was a fantastic run at light heavy weight. There's no question. And pound for pound is the category where that can apply, right? Yeah, yeah. One of my criteria for pound is certainly longevity, divisional dominance, title defenses. But I think the issue here is, for me, is there has to be some penalty for inactivity.

And it's not as if it was like just injuries that kept them out. Jed kind of mentioned it. It's the slow transition to heavyweight, which is great. Listen, if the three years that he took is because he was really properly channeling his body and turning into a heavyweight, and that's what gave us this incredible two-minute win, then that's fine. Listen, then what can you say? You can't criticize that, but we know there's other reasons John Jones wasn't fighting. There was contractual reasons. There was legal reasons that he probably was not best served booking a fight while he was taking care of those things. There's some really, really bad outside of the cage incidents. And even if you don't care about those things,

If you're one of those people was like, I don't have to like fighters. I don't care about that personality. I can separate who they are as a person from who they are as an athlete. You have to know that who he is as a person has directly had a direct negative effect on his career because those legal issues, they kept him out of competition. If a lot of those things hadn't happened, I can pretty much guarantee you he would have fought a lot sooner. But listen, he has to wait for the dust to clear.

He has to settle those things. So there has to be a penalty for an activity. So for me, I can't put him over of all. Bokanowski. I can't put him over Makhchegov. I can't put him over these guys who've been putting in that work over the last few years. I understand the Inganu thing, I think is much easier if you want to put him over Inganu hasn't fought since, since a year. That's a lot of in activity as it is. So I have a lot more understanding for that. But again, Mokacheb, Bokonowski. And who's the other name I have above? I have him at fifth in mine. I also have mine. You had a bit four behind. Oh, okay. And in Ghana because Inganu has to be in there. Okay. So then Makachev and. So, so. just Machetev and Bolkanowski. Yeah, I can't put him above them. They've been putting in the work. They've been, they've been performing. So for me, there has to be some sort of penalty. Well, so I want to get into the individual vote because to me, the individual vote on all this and how it shook out is actually really interesting. And it was, it was, while there was uniformity, really, across our heavyweight vote, everyone either having them one or two.

When it came to pound for pound, that shit was all over the place. We were everywhere as an eight-person panel. So, Damon, you, you and the Brazilian beast, once again, you guys, saw this the same. You and our pals, you two in our pal, Stephen Morocco, had John Slotted right there at number one. Those were the three first place votes. And then everyone else, no consensus whatsoever. Go back to that word. There was no consensus, AK you had him at four behind Francis and then three aforementioned guys. I had him at five behind Francis and Edwards. Mike had him at four. Casey had him at five. And then of course, there's our old pal, Jedmishu. I stand by it. I think I have the best one. Well, so we'll let you, we'll let you talk about it in a second. But you sir, you had him all the way down at number seven below the five aforementioned guys that we've talked

about as well as Brandon Moreno and Kamara Usman. I'm too high. I might be too high. In front of him as well. Actually, first, I want to bring Damon in here. I want to go to you first. You're the resident Jonesman of this four-person pod right now. Number seven, is that insane? Does it make sense to you? How does that number hit you? It's ludicrous. It's absolutely ludicrous. No, it's, it's, I've nailed it. I actually think seven is stone perfect. Absolutely ludicrous. Absolutely ludicrous.

Look. And what in what universe is that, is he really the seventh best power pound guy in the sport? Right now, it's pretty easy. Like, look, you're correct in that there are no rules, right? Like, this is all just opinion. I don't disagree with many of the things you said, but I don't believe. fundamentally that the pound for pound, this isn't the historic pound for pound list.

Absolutely John Jones has a better resume than Islamakov. Islamakov isn't the consensus greatest fighter of all time. But it's not like I view pound for pound should be a reflection of the time in which we live, not the 12 years ago when he was running through champions. And John Jones' last five years, three of whom he wasn't competing. He just had a dominant, incredible win over a dude who I think was a farve in our pound for pound listings before. Like, I'm not taking that away from him. And if this is purely who is the best fighter in the world has nothing to do with your recent accomplishments over your peers,

then I have no issue with you putting John Jones at number one. I'm not sure I would. I still might, like if we're doing that list, I still might go Volcanovsky number one. but I get if that's that's really splitting hairs. I cannot in good conscience be like John Jones is one fight in the last four years. Prior to that, winning a bad decision against Dom Reyes, a very close fight against a no need Tiago Santos and the most boringest fight over Anthony Smith that ever there was. I can't look at that and be like, this man deserves. to be rewarded over

Islam Makachev, who's had 10 fights in that period of time, undefeated, dominant, just beat the number one pound for pound fighter in the world against Alexander Volcanovsky, who may be establishing himself as the greatest featherweight of all time as these other guys. I don't think that that is a critique or a criticism

on what John Jones is as a fighter or what he's accomplished historically. I am saying, strictly, this shouldn't factor in wins from 12 years ago. Like it's, this is the current pound for pound list. But based on that, based on that logic and, okay, that's the lie.

I get it. I'm not, I'm not faulting you because again, this is bedlam. There's no right or wrong way to grade pound for pound. But by one question is when you kind of dissect John Jones one win and saying there's no way one win should put you that high, then how do you have Leon Edwards ahead of him? Because Leon Edwards also has a very good resume and is active during that time. Leon Edwards has one really good win. He does also, but we did this at the time. His one really good win that moved him up the list was over a dude on the list.

I'm not, I have John above Seeroghan. I agree. I agree. No, I'm not saying. I'm just saying like if we're going to, because again, this goes back to my argument about heavy weight, the way he beats Cyril gone so easily. Do we discount the Leon Edwards had a last minute fifth round comeback knockout of a fight he was losing handily at that?

point? Like, do we just ignore that? Like, that's what I'm saying. Like, if we're going to grade it and that's a good, he won. Yes, he absolutely did win, but look at the rest of his body at work. Name me one, name me one other quality win he has. He has, well, his wins of quality, one, he has been active. Two, they are of the same, frankly, quality that we're looking at John Jones's wins. Like him beating RDA at the time he did is, is equally as impressive to me as John beating Anthony Smith at the time in manner he did. I don't know the timelines on those. They're probably pretty close date-wise, though, right?

Like, a few years back. Like, this is, like, Leon gets, you're correct. Leon is getting a big boost off of one win. That big boost puts him in front of a dude that he's in, that is on the pound for pound list. If Cyril gone, or just make this easier, if it had been Francis Ngano instead of Cyril gone, and John does that to him.

at the bare minimum, John gets to be in front of Francis and Gano on our pound for pound list. He gets a little bit more boost for whatever else I would factor in there. But John beat Cyril Gahn, who I think I had ranked, think I had him in like 18 or something in pound for pound. I'm not sure anybody else did. Like he gets to be in front of Cyril Gond. And I have him at seven. I placed him right in front of Alex Beheada, who is also functionally exist on this list because of one win. but I have to put him on that list because that one win is over a guy who is in the list in Israel Dissinia.

I, John Jones is going to move up. He beat Stepe, he's, he will probably bounce in front of Inganu, uh, in my list, maybe in front of Brandon Moreno. Isn't, is it what Jones, but I mean, again, what Jones, we talk about like, Edwards and Adasania kind of the same thing. Or Edwards and Pereira, same kind of thing. Like, he had a late comeback win. And I understand, you have a below Jones.

Over a dude in the list. Well, again, I understand. John did it. Zero God's not there. So I don't, what is the, where's the disconnect? Let me jump in because I think from what I'm hearing, I'm glad we had both of you on the show today because it feels like your reach coming from polar extremes of the conversation when it comes to this.

Damon, you're up there at number one, Jed, you're at the very bottom with John. I feel like the rest of us sort of met in some kind of happy medium. A.K. I don't want to speak for you. But it feels as if the rest of us sort of almost combined. the two conversations of just, okay, like, obviously we have all of this historical precedent with John. Also, the man has just been inactive as hell, but also I have eyes, and I see someone that probably to me looks like a top five fighter in the world right now at the very minimum. And I feel like that's ultimately where I sort of split the difference and came in,

again, having a.m. number five, a.k.U. have it at number four. The rest of us kind of had around that range, too. That feels like the right place, but I can also see both sides of the argument where I can totally understand where you're coming from Damon and I can understand where you're coming from Jed. And that to me is like that's the weird part about pound for pound always, right? It's like you're just, we can go in circles for hours and I don't know that anything's going to be resolved. Yeah, I mean, listen, as I've said, there's no wrong answer here. I'm not, I'm not like condemning Jed for a number seven ranking. I just again, I just think, you know, where John Jones, when you look at his overall body of work and what he did on Saturday night,

that puts him back in a spot where he was before. And again, that's what I was looking for. If he had come If you come back and look terrible or you come back and want to split decision, again, I'm talking about based on John Jones body of work combined with coming back in a new division going up to heavyweight. The eye test. And then just completely demolishing the guy who I think I had number two at heavyweight behind Francis and Ghana. You know what I mean?

Like that's all I'm saying. Like he went out there and absolutely ran through again. This is again, two division champion. Those things that little, little intricacies like that matter to me. I'm saying a philosophical question. And this is for the group, not just for you, Damon, but a philosophical question. Because this has been said a lot, and it's obviously not wrong because they're open thing. When we are considering body of work, do you have a cutoff?

Is there a time when pound for pound does not factor in what John did literally 10 years ago? And that, to me, is the big thing. Because I think those are very different. Like I think that is historical pound for pound. That is the goat conversation, which John Jones is probably undeniable, number one. You can make arguments, but the conversation at least starts with him. But I can't, fact, I can't say look at the body of work and then realize that actually that body of work the last five years is real mid, like real, real mid. And he does.

And so that's where, where is there, is there cutoff for y'all? Let me answer that question because for me, obviously, this is all very nebulous. But the way my mind works and the way my mind looks at these sort of things is not the cutoff per se, but just what is the current run that you're on? And if one man's current run is, I just haven't lost ever. Like that at a certain point, like I can then go backwards and count certain things past five years, six years, seven years, because it's just all part of one contained entire thing that we're grading at that point.

Like if your run is that you lost one, you won one, you lost one, and then you won seven, like that seven is sort of what I'm looking at. If your run is that you're on a three-five run, that's sort of what I'm looking at it. But if your run is just that, hey, I've never lost and you've known me in the UFC for 15 years, that to me still feels like it's part of it. Yeah, I just hate that.

I think that's far too conflating historical greatness, which again, John Jones is a goat. I'm not here to argue that point. Like, that's, I think that conversation, if it's not dead,

it's, there's dirt being poured on it in the grave right now. But like, I also want pound for pound to be a reflection of the times we live in. Because if that's the case, like, until he retires or dies, like he's just going to hold the top.

And that feels, well, he's not holding the top right now to me. He's not holding the top right. I guess before he retired the last time, right? Like it just gets wrong to me. Real quick, let me just point out also with this is that also we're talking about a really weird kind of volatile time at the top of pound for pound. Like I said, if Volkanowski had beaten Makachev and John Jones beat Suril gone, I would almost, I would say 98% sure still have Volcanowski.

And number one, because the body of work he's had recently along with a win over Islam Makachev is better. But the problem is I already had, as I explained earlier, I had McChacov above a Volcanov. But when you look at the overall body of work, when you start picking, when you start nitpicking the resumes and the records, that's where I start running into a headache. And right now, pound for pound is a little bit of a mess because- right now pound for pound for-sucks. Right now, pal-per-or-a-hom-hru-h. Kumar-Uzman had the resume.

He got knocked out in a weird way. Israel-A-Sahni had the resume. He got knocked out in the weird way. So again, it's not exclusive. It's not exclusive to men. John Jones is kind of like just bringing, like kind of restoring a little bit of order because his overall resume is better. Andy just beat a guy at heavyweight after he's light heavy.

All those kind of things already said. So he kind of slips in there. I'm not sitting there like banging the drum saying you're crazy for not having him number one. I'm just saying that when you look at it ludicrous that I had in seven. I said ludicrous of number seven. It's still clear. It was number seven.

But when you look at the top four or five, no matter how you have ranked, they're all kind of wild in there right now. Like there's like, I don't feel like this is not a knock on Leon Edwards. I actually really likely on Edwards. It may not sound like I, it may not sound like I do based on our predictions earlier this when we did that episode.

But I actually really like it. I hate Leon Edwards. But the problem is. Like a big Leon DeFord. But Leon Edwards has really one truly good win over Kamar Uswin. And then a lot of like, you know, not, you know, Nate Diaz and then, you know, again. But I'm just saying like, we're just in a weird spot. Again, Alex Pereira, he has two quality wins.

He has Sean Strickland and obviously the lay knockout over Israel out of Sonia. It's just, it's a weird time. You said he had two quality wins. I was like, who's the second? I could not. I was no like, oh yeah, he killed Sean Strickland that one. I was like, he beat somebody else good? It's, that's, and that's the problem we're running into it, pound for pound right now.

Like, there's not, like, I put Jones there because I'm like, I guess I feel kind of the best about him right now, but there's no clear. That's the problem we're running it to. There's no Usman or Adasanya or even Volcanowski at this point on this long winning streak. defending their title or whatever, they've all lost recently. Ultimately, that was my big takeaway from this whole experience, which was right now, pound for pound is the weirdest that I can remember it maybe ever being in MMA. And it is because of the sheer amount of these wild, unpredictable results that we have gotten over the last year and a half, where just again, over and over with the Izzy fight, with the

Usman fight, we're going to talk about it in a second, but with the Grasso fight, consistently, both men and women's side. Now, the Pena fight. There are just so many results that throw this whole equation out of whack in a way that is just hard to parse. And maybe that's, maybe that makes it fun. But it also kind of makes it just frustrating. It makes pound for pound seem less meaningful.

If that, if that's correct, if that makes sense. There was a, there was a stretch there where you could have, your, your top five or top four names of pound were written in pen that in some order, Andrews Silva, GSP, Demetius Johnson. John Jones. maybe John Jones. There you go. Those four. And no issue.

And that was for months and more. Jose Aldo, Dominic Cruz. Like that was. Yeah. Months and months and months and months. Those are your guys. You could have them in, you could shuffle up the order if you want, but it was pretty reliable.

Again, if you just look at our individual balance, even, even the Jones thing is weird. I was just looking at it. So for us, he was, it was at, Jones was either number one or outside of the top three. There was no like in between. It was out of, he was either rank number one or he was someone. from four to seven. Actually, that totally makes sense to me because if you're going to be a bear, be a grizzly, like if you're going to stand on this John Jones is it corner,

you've just got to put him at the top. You can't be like, well, he's number two. Yeah, like that'd be weird. Yeah. So that makes sense to me. Can I also note because I feel like we're about to be transitioning in a rational world where one of our panelists, not me, wasn't a psycho and refused to rank heavy weights, but then does rank John Jones because reasons.

Francis Ngano would be number four, and we would have Jones and Ngano at three and four in our pound for pound rankings, which would just be really fun. Well, of course, what you mentioned is our fact that our good friend, the legendary videographer, E. Casey Leiden, one and O as a professional fighter. I don't know if you guys know that.

He had the 10. He has a noted philosophy to not rank heavyweights and really light heavy weights as well in the pound for pound for some reason Vadim Kov gets an exception. I don't know why. But he just doesn't rate the big guys because of the way he looks at pound for pound. And yet John Jones appeared on his ballot, which propelled John way farther up than Francis.

It's a whole separate issue. He appeared relatively highly on that ballot too. You know, Casey's going to do what case is going to do. I can actually see where he's coming from in that John fought two divisions. He's a fight. Listen, he's a fighter. He knows more about this than any of us. He has more credit.

He has more credit. But Sponsons out there somewhere just nodding his head, like, good. Quick two-partner, and then we're moving on the last thing of the day. If John Jones goes out there, again, yes or no question only here. We got to move on. But AK and Jed, because I already know where Damon stands, if John goes out there and just demolish his steep like he did Cyril gone, like it's just not even a competition, is he your number one heavyweight

and is he your number one pound for pound? Oh, number one heavyweight, almost for sure, because like we said, that'll be in July. I think by then we'll know what Francis is doing, unless Francis can book some sort of relevant MMA. Like, I know we joked about some of the guys who could fight out the UFC, but I actually, like, think it would be credible if he could go out and, you know, goes to he fights Phil de Freeze. It goes to beat Ryan Bader. I know fans would laugh.

Fans make it's not UFC. Oh, Phil de Freeze is whatever. He couldn't make it the UFC however X years ago and that doesn't mean anything. It would still mean something to me. It wouldn't mean that he's still fighting at least quality heavyweights. It would probably be enough to keep him there, but all signs seem to indicate he's not going to fight an MMA next. So that problem might solve itself.

So I will say very strong chance that John Jones is the number one heavyweight whenever he fights steep a and if he gets that win. Pound for pounds is a little more complicated. It can't be answered independently because what's Volcanoxia going to do during this time? What's Machochev could do during this time? What's what if I don't know Leon Edwards beats me? I'll say everything else stays stagnant. Oh.

What a what that's, uh, then. Just yes or no? I still. No, then no. Okay. No for power pound. Jedd. Heavyweight pound.

Yes or no? No for heavyweight. I'm, I'm going to give Francis his respect. Um, Casey and I talked about this. If he beat Steepay and another one, then that will almost certainly move him above, but just beating Steepay, he'll just stay there. For pound for pound, was the question, will he be number one pound for pound? No.

He'll move up. Probably top three or four, but he's not going to take the number one with those two wins. I think I sort of align the same with you in that no, I'm going to give Francis a little bit more room here. And again, you got to beat somebody that Francis didn't beat for me to be able to put you above him. And pound for pound, he might be my number one. I'm not going to lie. It's also just easy to give Francis that respect of like if he's, if he's, if he's, if he's, he's on the time clock, the shot clock.

He's about to exit anyway for time or lack of activity. Like, I'm just going to let him run that out and not take something away that he earned and is not losing in the cage. Yeah. I do think, though, that if he comes out and just do some Malachishti and the way that he did Cyril, he might be number one pound for pound for me at that point, just because of the history that we have with him. But we, that is for another show, another day.

Let's move on really quickly and hit that last segment, last thing to talk about, the other big result of the weekend. With Amex Platinum, $400 in annual credits for travel and dining means you not only satisfy your travel bug, but your taste buds too. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything.

So no, you can't get a nice rank on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice, yes, we deliver the those. Goaltenders, no, but chicken tenders, yes, because those are groceries, and we deliver those too, along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Uh, and y'all, our number one pound for pound female of the planet, she is no longer. Uh, I am sorry, ahead of time to make you relive, uh, this financial nightmare Jed, but this half decade

rain. I don't know what you're talking about. It's a great weekend. A lot of fun. Fun was had. I gained so many new followers through the tragedy of my life. Little victories, man. Little victories. Silver linings. The half decade reign of Valentina Shavchenko is

finally over. It ends in incredible fashion. Alexa Grasso goes in there, has the performance of her life. She chokes out a legend. And it's probably, I wouldn't say the greatest, but one of the greatest title Reigns in UFC women's history. She is, of course, going to be our consensus number one flyweight once the next division

rankings come out. Those haven't come out yet. But for our purposes today, what we're talking about. Amanda Nunes is now, once again, the new pound for pound number one on the women's side. And y'all, I was a little surprised by this, but Alexa Grasso making her presence known, number two on the women's pound for pound ranks for MMA fighting. Holy shit, really? That was my reaction.

I'm actually a little stunned to see it, but that is where we ended up. I had her fourth behind Zhang, Cyborg, and Nunes. Jed and Damon, you had her third behind Zhang and Nunes, and AK, you had her fifth behind Zhang, Cyborg and Nunes, and actually Valentina as well. But just the collective aggregate, because that top, you know, what, two through five is so muddled for everybody. That's just kind of where the average worked out.

So, fellas, talk me through this. How did you end up where you ended up? And are you surprised that this is, where we added up. I had her the lowest. You do. You have her the lowest of the whole team. You know what screwed up is I almost had her number one. I had a thought in my head. That's a big, big switch one to five. I had a thought in my head, I said, we don't know that 125 pound Alexa Grasso is not the

best woman's fighter in the world. She hasn't listened. She hasn't lost a 125. She hasn't lost and she looks fantastic. Like this isn't just, oh, well, it's just a record. All of her fights at 125 have been great. She showed off a more well-rounded skill set. She's clearly physically matured into her prime. Like she just looks like, I don't know what I say, the best version of herself because that could be still to come. But boy, she looked really, really good against Valentina on Saturday.

Even though the official scorecards did have Shevchenko up two rounds. They gave a round. All three judges gave Shepchenko rounds two and three. So she was up going to round four. I think she might have even got up three to one after. round four, depending if Alex Grasso didn't get that choke, but was still able to do other stuff in the ground, it might have been even. But regardless, let's say it was three rounds to one for Chubchenko. Those were all close rounds.

Those were all really good competitive rounds. Grasso looked completely like she belonged with, again, what was our number one pound-for-pound fighter in the world. And she won. I just mentioned all these hypotheticals. What happened in reality is she won. She capitalized a mistake. She took Chauvchenko down. She won by submission.

No controversy. And I really thought to myself, maybe she's number one. What held me back was, and this goes almost back to your discussion, Jed, of what's the statute of limitations on, like, past results? Is I had to remember that there was a loss to Asparza, you know, somewhat contentious, but it was a decision. She didn't have lost as farza. And it got totally, like, trucked by Suarez. It does feel like it's a lifetime ago. It was a different weight class.

So, again, this is stuff I thought of when I was thinking, why can't Grasso just be number one? But I just wasn't ready to discount those losses yet. So it's almost unfair. Again, I'm almost being a little unfair. We should really just be evaluating the 125 version. And I think if you're doing that, really, you could have pushed her all the way, number one. I didn't. I had to include some of her 115 as well.

So that's why I end up at five and just kind of flipping that. But yeah, it was a tough one. Let me also add just for the listeners, hearing that she is number two, maybe sounds a bit different from the actual reality of it because the point systems we use, everything is totaled up, right? So first gets like a 20. Yeah, first gets like 20 points. Second gets second place gets 19 points, et cetera, et cetera. The difference between Grasso being number two and number four is minuscule. It is absolutely minuscule. The difference between Grasso, Zhang, and Shepchenko is negligible. So DeGrasso very easily could have been number four on everybody's balance. It really, again,

just goes to that top, that two through five. I mean, it's not even that big a gap to be in number six. The difference between Grasso, Zhang, Shepchenko, and Cyborg, and everybody else's balance, all of those are mixed up in some order, and that's just sort of how we ended up where we ended up. Do you want to know the really crappy part about this, trying to figure this whole thing out?

Alexo Grosso currently has a better win streak than anybody else in that top four. There you go. There you go. Right, so she could be number one. Jay and two-fight win streak, noon's on a one-fight win streak. It's crazy when you think about.

Grosso's actually got a longer win streak than anybody else in that top four. Yeah. Yeah, Shaheen's about pound for pound being shit for the men. That's what I'm saying. No, I was applying it to both. Yeah, the other thing I think needs to be explained. And I know I'm not the only one who still has her behind Schenko, right? Who are we all?

You are the only person who has Grasso below Shivchenko. On the show or of all of us? Of all of us. To take. Really? Okay. So for me, that to me is just me being consistent because, so that's probably the other reason. when Julianna Pena beat Amana Nunes, but was this January?

What was this? December, December 2021. I also did not put Pena above Nunes there. Now, Grasso has a much better track record at flyweight than Pena has at 135, frankly, outside of the Nunes win. But I did want to be consistent. I did not make it automatic that if you beat the number one pound for pound or sorry, the champion division, you necessarily take their pound for pound spot.

So same thing happened with Grasso. She gets the number one of the division, but doesn't get the, he doesn't get the ranking ahead of Shibchenko. There's no easy answer here. And this is worse than the men's as I was talking about, like, trying to justify, like, it's all such a mess, man. Nunes is on a one-fight win streak. She got, I mean, let's be honest, she got trucked by Payne in their first fight.

Now, she came back and absolutely beat the brakes off her in the rematch. She got trucked is a weird way to frame that. fight but okay that is not the descriptor I would use for that she did not look good in that fight she did not look great in the first round before she won them she did but I'm saying like she she looked she looked like the older man to nudas in that second round um and then came back and obviously beat the breaks off pain in the rematch but again one fight win streak it's a weird one to have that and she didn't just lose she got finished in the second round and then you go to chukchenko same kind of thing. Like she looked dominant, looked amazing.

She was winning. She was up on the scorecards. Then she gets choked out in the fourth round. Jane. That was a much more competitive fight though. That was a much more competitive fight. She got knocked out. You know, Jane got naggedo. Jane, you know, lost to Rose a couple times. I know the rematch was closed, whatever.

But then she beat Yoanna, which was a great win. I mean, absolutely, it would be a phenomenal win. And then obviously went out there and, you know, just laid waste to Carlos Barr's in a fight that, you know, pretty much everyone expected to go the way it went. It's just a weird time. And then you look at Cyborg, whose record outside the UFC has been beating up bartenders, the Bellator finds somewhere around.

She's a boxer now. She finds whatever, whatever bartenders working at the Black Forg in Dublin is who they're throwing in there with her and she's beating up in Belator. I don't feel good about anything right now about women's pound for pound guys. I just don't. I don't feel good about anybody right now. Look, this is garbage.

I don't even like having it is number one. For all the reasons I'm not supportive of putting John Jones. See, I already had her at number one. I already did. Yeah. It's fine on that. It's not awful. It's the way I can justify it.

It's just like, well, nobody else has really done anything good to take it away from her. But like all of her good wins are forever ago and not against people who mean anything anymore. So it's all pretty meh. None of this matters, guys. Because the true hero lies in wait. someone will emerge very soon to take the flyweight title and and take the crown of best pound for pound fighter and when you said at the start of this, are we have the consensus number one flyweight in the world.

That is not true, Sheen, because I have a different number one flyweight in the world. Oh my God. And it's our future champion. Oh, my God. Aaron Blanchfield is coming, guys. And she's going to be the top pound for pound fighter in the war on the four of the end of this year.

I didn't see this. I didn't see this. Alexa Grasso goes out and beats Valentina Shep Chaggo. The woman you felt so confident about that you put your entire bankroll on. The woman you have been for years, being like, oh, this is the greatest female fighter in history. This is the number one fighter in the sport. Wow.

She chokes her out definitively. Absolutely. And you can't even give her the number one spot in the division. This is. Grasso is getting the Charles Olivera treatment from Jet. Jed famously refused to give Charles Olivaira the number of the robot after. Was I wrong? You were wrong twice.

Yes, you had like gage over him. Twice you were wrong before you were right. Yes, exactly. I feel pretty good about Blanchold over Grasso, guys. I'm not going to lie. So, Bassel's number two flyweight and she's number three in my pound for pound. This is why it matters to have an eight-person panel so that seven opinions can outweigh the one dumb opinion.

I totally agree. I totally agree with you in this, but we need people like me to keep things fresh. Not what are you people like you? You need people like me. You do. You want me on that wall. You need this kind of dissension. You don't need what the unnamed panelist is doing in the top of the women's pound for pound list,

but you do need me. I will say, based on, you know, if we're playing the whole who be two, who's the best skill. That's how my rankings go. If that's the prerequisite to rank and then, yeah, I believe Aaron Blanchfield is probably the best flyweight in the world right now in terms of skill. I think she, in my opinion, she dominates Alexa Grosso. And now seeing what happened to Valentina Shepchenko and back-to-back fights on the ground, I don't disagree that Aaron Blanchfield might win that fight too. Kind of breaks my heart because I was very much on the Jedmishu, Valentina Shepchinko bullet train for a long time.

but yeah but again that's i can't put her there yet based on my way of ranking which is you know accomplishment beating and dros is huge but you know you choke out valentina shorchenko you got to be number one and again i don't feel great about it because when you look at even gross up being undefeated of flyway it's not like it's not like she has great wins in flyway like she has good wins like you know barber and and a ujo but you know arrojo just got you know beat the other night does that win really hold up like she's she's she's a little bit in that, you know, like a little bit in that Pereira, you know, that Leon Edwards category where like her wins up until Valentina, don't look all that great.

Shaheen, let me also throw you a bone and say that if Valentina had somehow won that fight, if she hadn't gotten choked out, survived to the end of the round, won the fifth, still retained her belt. I was still putting Blanchefield at the number one. No. No, you weren't. A thousand percent. No, you were.

Irresponsible. You responsible. I know that you're responsible. She would win that fight. I would confidently pick Aaron Blanfield to be Valentin Schifchenko. And that's all I need to put you in number one. Let me ask this. Obviously, Jed, you don't have to answer this because I think we know the answer.

Was there any, because I almost did this. I actually almost said this. Did anyone have any thought to keeping Schifchenko number one? No. No. She was already my number two. She was already my number two. She was already your number two, Jean.

Damon, any thought, any thought to keeping Shepchenko number one? There was a, there was a brief thought. only because I don't feel good about putting newness number one. Like I don't I don't feel great about that spot. Like Chowcchenko getting upset. But here's the thing. She, you know, Alexa one round one, she was hanging tough. Yes, she lost rounds two and three, but she was hanging tough.

If Alexa pulled out like to me, Alexa beating Valentina in all honesty is a bigger upset than Holly Holme beating Ronda Rousey in my opinion. Because Alexa style-wise, in theory, should not have been competitive with Valentina. Now she did, and credit to her, she looked great. Absolutely. But like on paper, to me, that's a bigger upset. But again, I just, I don't feel good about, I just, I don't know.

There's just something about Nunez being number one right now. I don't feel great about. But, you know, I'm stuck because Chitigo got choked out. She didn't lose the split decision. She didn't lose a, she got choked out. It's an emphatic ending. It's hard for me to leave her number one. But I thought about it for a split second.

Two quick rapid fire things, and I want to close us out with these. Just yes or no again, I already feel like I know where everyone's going to go on this first one, but I'm curious, just to gauge the feel of the room, the temperature of the room. Is this spot, this number one spot, is it just Aaron Blanchfield's in waiting? Like, are we just waiting for this to be Aaron Blanchfields? Yes, Jed. Yes. I already said it.

A thousand percent, yes. No. No? No, you don't think so? Grasso was super impressive on Saturday. I'm not counting around against anybody anymore. Damon. Are you talking flyweight or pound for pound?

Pound for pound. Pound for pound. No, there's a question because Zhang's out there still. And if Jane can, you know, Jane can win her next fight beat Rose or beat Andraa. She could, she could jump in that number one spot over Nunes. Okay. And then last thing, and we'll end on this.

Grasso of Shevchenko, too. The way that fight played out, We know this is going to be a rematch. We already know how this is going to go. Who do you favor, Jed? I don't know. It's really, really tough. Probably Grasso.

I know she was losing the fight, but in general, when the younger fighter wins a fight, they do better in the rematch, have the confidence. I mean, all the stuff I thought that that fight was going to look like was not the case. Valentina did not just overwhelm her with physicality, which was the most surprising part. I think Valentina is definitely on the decline physically. She's been fighting for 20 freaking years. Like it's impossible to fend off all the time that long. So probably Grasso, but it's really, we'll see it. It's really close fight, but I think of going Grasso.

Yeah, you said to me on the post-fight show that Valent, because we were talking about the dates of Valentina, how early she started compared to like before Roxanne Montefarian, like all these legends. You said that she started like a few years after Fador started. And that was the one of really just like, like five months after Shogun. Unprecedented that this is still happening at this level. Like this woman could have legitimately been fighting in real pride if pride did that.

Like that is a thing that could have happened. Crazy. And she was still the freaking champ until Saturday. One of one, man. One of one. A.K. That rematch. Who you lean towards right now.

Grasso. Damon. Chilchenko. under one condition. She needs to stop training in Kyrgyzstan and Japan and all these weird places. It's not going to happen. Train a normal training camp with good people around you and get better. And then I'm on on board for Shibchinko pulling one out.

So it sounds like you're picking Grasso because that's not going to happen. No, I'm still. I'm still sick. I'm going to stick with Shikinko. She was winning. But yeah, I just, I need her to go back to Vegas,

man. Go back to Vegas and train there because this whole traveling to Kyrgyzstan and Japan and all these other weird things. thing she's doing. She needs to get out of there and train with real people again. I'm leaning Grasso too. Just even if that fight had gone to a decision and Grasso would want it, I feel like I would have leaned Grasso. We talked about it a lot in the lead up, but just Chavchanko's overwhelming dominance masked for so long, her overwhelming longevity. And at some point that had to,

that had the bottom had to fall out. And maybe it fell out 5%. And that's it. That's all it takes. But it feels like it fell out a tiny. bit. Can I still your job real quick, Shaheen, just for a second. Aaron Blanchfield versus Chebchenko and or Grasso. Is anyone picking anyone over Blanchfield? I say no. Blancho beats both of them right now.

I'm not picking a woman alive over Blanchfield. I'm not counting out Grasso anymore. I'm not because she looked fantastic on Saturday. I know she was losing the fight on the score cards, but I thought she was so good. I don't know anybody at that weight class right now. She looked great, but

Kautiama Swares. I can't get that fight out of my mind. And Swarze is now in the conversation. She debuted on our pound for pound rankings too. She is the very bottom of their number 20. And she's coming this year. Can we please get Tati on against Zhang Wei Lee? Can we please get Tatian against Shangri Lee, please? And this year, baby, this is here.

Those are the two women who are about to own the top of this weight class for this ranking, this pound for pound ranking for some time. Well, I'm looking forward to it. We are in the thick of it, fellas. As we said, we are going to be back in two weeks, really. with Leon, after Leon Edwards and Kamara Usman 3, the pay-per-view schedule is just fast and furious for the next few months here. And just even the events outside of the pay-per-views are really, really good.

I mean, hell, even this week, we have a sensational Bellator card coming up with the lightweight tournament starting. Can't wait for all of this to take place. It's going to be a lot of fun. What a time it is for MMA. 2023, minute, alive, well, on fire. And we appreciate all of you guys for joining us on this ride. That is it for us today. This has been another episode of the MMA fighting ranking show.

We appreciate all of you, as always. Keep it locked to the M.A. Fighting Network. That man is Jet. That man is Damon. That man is Alexander K. Lee. I am Sean O'SHoddy. We love you guys. We'll see you soon.

This episode is brought to you by Peloton. A new era of fitness is here. Introducing the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ. Built for breakthroughs with personalized workout plans, real-time insights. and endless ways to move. Lift with confidence, while Peloton IQ counts reps, corrects form, and tracks your progress. Let yourself run, lift, flow, and go.

Explore the new Peloton Cross-Draining Treadplus at OnePeloton.ca. When I got a great deal on a great gift at winners, I started wondering, could I get fabulous gifts for everyone on my list? Like this designer fragrance for my daughter. It's just $39.99, how could I resist? This luxurious wolf throw for my sister,

This gold watch for my partner? A wooden puzzle for my niece? Leather gloves for my boss? Ooh, European chocolate for the crossing guard? At these prices, could I find something for everyone at winners? Stop wondering, start gifting. Winners find fabulous for less. Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap.

You're almost at the finish line. But first? There, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes. You know.