MMA Fighting - Rankings Show: September's Risers and Fallers, Debating Volkanovski or Holloway at No. 1 + Who Is the P4P Queen?

Episode Date: October 6, 2021

Who's the real No. 1: Alexander Volkanovski or Max Holloway? Amanda Nunes or Valentina Shevchenko?? Co-hosts Shaun Al-Shatti and Alexander K. Lee dive into MMA Fighting's Global Rankings to discuss the biggest risers and fallers of September and more. Then, the two are joined by Damon Martin and Mike Heck to settle the featherweight dilemma raging internally among the team, debate who the real pound-for-pound queen is in MMA, and much more. Catch new episodes of the MMA Fighting Rankings Show on the first Wednesday of every month. Follow Shaun Al-Shatti @ShaunAlShatti Follow Alexander K. Lee @AlexanderKLee Follow Damon Martin @DamonMartin Follow Mike Heck @MikeHeck_JR Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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October, I hope September, treated you wonderfully. And thank you so much for once again, starting your month, we're here with us, in case you have no idea what this is. This is the second episode of the M.A. Fighting Ranking Show. I'm Sean O'Shottie, and I'm joined here by my good pal. He's the happiest man I know. Some people call him the Prince of Positivity. He is Alexander K. Lee. And A.K., we are back, my man. And what a month it was, September has come and gone. There is plenty to discuss. How are you feeling. Sean, of course I'm happy. I'm definitely positive. Always happy first and foremost to be working with you, chatting with you with all the good people of the interwebs and I'll listen to this podcast. And I love talking. If there's anything I love in MMA, way-ins, people know this about me.

You love way-ins. Matchmaking. Matchmaking. Love matchmaking. And I love rankings. I do love talking about rankings because it involves, you know, I mean, comparing fighters, which is always fun and really digging into what the fights mean, and of course, math. So I am very happy to be here. Math and rules. You want to get AK excited? You talk about math. You talk about rules.

Yeah, of course, rules, obviously, rules. Hashtag rules, rules. So in case you guys missed the first episode of this, this is actually our once-a-month look at the MMA fighting global rankings. First Wednesday of every month, it is our chance to inject just a little bit transparency into the process, really bring you inside, let you inside, and let you know what we're thinking when we make some of these decisions on these rankings that come out every month. And so, A.K., later on in the show, we're going to be joined by two of our fellow ranking

panelists, Damon Martin and Mike Heck, and we're going to tackle the biggest debates of the September ranking cycle. It's probably going to get a little heated, but, you know, friendships may be ruined. I'm sure it'll be fine. Well, first, though, AK, let's spend a little, me and you time here with the people. We're going to go quick three rounds. We're hit the biggest movers and shakers of September. And so, okay, let's start here.

Round number one. It was a weird month because you had loads and loads of ranked fighters competing, probably the most we've had in any one month cycle so far. But not actually a lot of surprises, right? Of the 17 fights featuring ranked fighters this month that ended with some type of definitive ending, meaning Kevin Holland is out of this. Of those 17, 14 of them ended with the higher ranked fighter beating the lower ranked fighter and holding onto their spot.

So it was a busy month, but also didn't leave it. us with a ton of movement. So I throw it to you, what was the most important or meaningful result for you in terms of the rankings this past month? Yeah, look, as you're saying, there was so much potential for movement. We could have had a new featherweight champion. We could have had the heavyweight and light heavyweight divisions get shaken up a bit. Women's flyweight, if some of the results have gotten a certain way, that division could have been turned upside down. We also could have had a new women's flyweight champion as well. So, yeah, there were a lot of potential for movement, as you said, really almost.

None of the higher ranked fighters took the upset. However, one big one, and there's a lot of big movement on my part. I have a feeling some people might have had the man I'm about to mention ranked pretty highly already. But one Mr. Marabd de Balasvili, maybe the hottest fighter at 135 pounds, what I think has been the best division in MMA for the last, maybe the last couple of years, 18 months. And lightweight, tradition, always great answer. I think 135 is so hot right now.

Mui Caliente and Marad Vosch really has been right there. After bouncing back from a couple of weird losses like early in his UFC career, he's shown why he's been like this highly touted wrestling machine prospect, everything you would want. He's an improving striker. He's everything you would want in a prospect. And he's certainly leaving up to it. Biggest test for him, Marlon Moraes, a guy who actually I picked to win.

I thought Marlon was just a bit too big, not too big of a test, but just a good fighter who would beat Maraub. but a super exciting fight back and forth and Rob really shown his grit and how dangerous he is once he's able to start like really put it on people and going downhill, man, he looks like

a future champion and for me personally in my rankings was the biggest jump. I had him outside of the, it looks like I had him outside of the top 10 and now he takes Marlon McIsses spot comfortably in the top 10. I have to say I didn't expect to

to start with Marab, but I think you're right, okay? I actually think you're right. Obviously, there are bigger fights in September that we saw in terms of meaningful fights. But just in terms of pure rankings, this was, I think, my biggest jump, too. And it's funny because this was really the moment we've been waiting for with Marab, right? Like, this was the gut check moment. This was the test. And you look at our eight-person panel, the rankings coming into this month really reflected that, right?

He was sitting outside of the top 10 or kind of just. on that periphery of the top 10 for, I think, a lot of people in our rankings panel. And it's one of those things where you mentioned the early losses that he suffered in his UFC career. I think sometimes these prospects, when they suffer these kind of losses, especially when they're weird losses in retrospect, right? Like you look at the Frankie Signs split decision loss and the one to Ricky Simone where it's this last second submission that a one in a thousand type of result that you'll never

be able to replicate. Those type of things, sometimes it feels to me can stay with a. prospect longer than they should and really drag this sort of road out longer than it should. And we saw it with Marab. He took him six fights to be able to get a real opportunity like this. But this was it. This was the one, right? Like you're coming in there against Marlon Marius. This is your gut check moment. And not only that, you're coming in there against a desperate Marlon Marius. A Marlon Marius who has never been in deeper, darker need of a win in his whole entire MMA career. And Marab not only succeeded ace this test with flying.

colors, but I mean, man, he was out there overcoming all kinds of adversity, and he's there now, right? Like, he is in this conversation now. Well, the kind of the shame of it is that he'd be calling for a title shot right now. If his best butt in the whole world, Al Jemaine Sterling wasn't technically still the champion. Now, we don't know what's going to happen with the interim situation with San Hagan and Jan. I'm sure the UFC, if there's any more setbacks with Al Jemaine Sterling, as far as I can be able to compete soon, if it's like, oh, he won't be able to compete. till next summer. I mean,

that title is going to get stripped real quick. They'll be very happy to anoint the San Hagan Yon winner as the undisputed champion and just move on. And in that case,

Marab is very close. I mean, again, if that happens, he's going to be, he'll probably have to take another fight, but right after that, guarantee calls for the winner

of the Yon Sterling fight. And, you know, in that way, he avoids that sort of, at least for now, that sort of interference with his pal, Al Jermaine Sterling.

I do wonder if at some point down the road, if it is for a world title, they would agree to fight, but it's certainly something. It's a tricky situation. It's a really tricky situation.

Neither guy has said, I mean, they said they're, everyone has seen it. They're super close. They've never even said any chance that they're going to fight each other, but a year from now, who knows? But it seems like this is actually best for Devalich Ville. Al Jiao temporarily being taken out of the title picture and maybe one of his rivals ends up having to fight Marabins dead. So it's, it is funny how that might work out. So I think he's a lot closer than some people might think. I have him at number seven this month.

You had him at number six. And overall for our team, he is now. number seven. So he is right there. You look at the guys above him. It's a Jose Aldo. It's a Rob Fon. Corey Sanhagan, T.J. Dillashal. And then, of course, the two guys, Peter Yon and Al Jermaine Sterling. So there is not a lot of wiggle room left for Mara. He is one fight away, as you said, from really being in that conversation in full. And then I think it's going to be really interesting to see how this whole relationship with Al Joe plays out. Because who knows whether Al Jermain is going to have to drop the title. Who knows whether Al Jermain is going to be

able to be healthy enough to come back? And I mean, he's already beaten Corey Sanhagen, pretty convincingly. So this whole division might get even messier before it gets cleaner. And Moran might be part of that. But I agree with you, man. That to me felt like the most significant jump that anyone made this month. Let's move on and let's hit round number two. And let's talk about the big boys here for a second, AK. The heavyweight division has always been at least historically the last 10 years or so, right? It is a division of old men. It is a division very devoid of interesting prospects. You get one, you get a Francis and Ghanu coming along every once in a while.

But for the most part, it's a lot of the same names that have been there for a long time. And I think that feels like that is starting to slowly change. And two men in particular made, I was going to say sizable leaps, but I think that's probably too much. But they made leaps this month. And we have been watching them slowly rise up the rank. Christaucus, Tom Aspinall. Chris Dawkins moving from number 10 into the top.

I'm sorry, from number 11 into the top 10 this month and Tom Aspinall moving from 13 to 12. Dawkes among our team was as high as number 8 for some people and as low as number 14. Tom Aspinall as high as 11 and as low as 15. But it's an interesting case when you look at both of them, right? Because both are four and O in the UFC. Both have four finishes. Both have been dominant in their fights so far. Their progress has been gradual.

But it does feel as if they are both really sitting on that precipice right now where they're going to have to be thrown into these big time fights or something. And that kind of leads into very different strategies these two men are taking, right? That's part of this because Chris Dawkins out here, he's already booked against Derek Lewis. He's making that leap. It's happening for him right now. Whereas Tom Aspinall, he's taking really more of the slow road. He has been very vocal about how he doesn't want those fights yet. He doesn't feel like he's ready for it. He'd rather just continue on this path that he's on and take on these very slow rising, or take a slow rise rather, than a fast one.

Two questions for you, A.K. One, do we have this right at the moment where Daucus, it's a couple of spots ahead of Tom Aspinall? Does that feel right? And also, whose future do you feel like you're higher on? Oh, I mean, look, I think the answer is pretty clearly different for both those questions. So I would have Daucus ahead of Aspenol, as I think most of us do. I think if you just look at the strength of competition, let's go the last two fights to

Aspinall, Sergei Spivak, another young guy. Gunner, by the way, at heavyweight, who actually is pretty promising, who just hasn't had the same success as Aspinall and Dawkins. And Anjorovsky, who is still a quality win, but as we said, is part of that past generation of heavyweights. Now, I might be contradicting myself because if we look at Christakis now, we've got Alexei Olinic, who's definitely part of the past generation of heavyweights, and Shamele Abdurahimab, who actually is a really nice win, because I think before his stretch of inactivity, I think he

would have been in most of our top tens if we had been doing rankings when he was, you know, before he went on a little break, unfortunately, for injuries. I think Shemil, Shemil is probably the best win of any, of either these two men right now. Right. That's a, that's a top 10. I would also, I would think most people would have Alenic ranked higher than Arlofski. I'm not saying either guys in the top of Dean, but I think if people were keeping their independent rankings, Olinic would probably be higher ranking. So I give him the edge, I give us the edge in that one too. So I definitely have him ahead. I think most people would and I think that's sensible. I'll tell you on our Mike and I, our Mike Heck and I, our matchmaking show on to the next one,

everyone was calling for Doccas and Lewis like right away, like two days before it was actually made. Like I thought it was too soon. Everyone was calling for it. I assume Doccas himself had mentioned it. Maybe that's why people were saying it. But there you go. So we'll see.

He's putting his money where his mouth is. Aspinall has been very careful. And to answer your second question, I do see a brighter future for Tom Afinol. He's a little bit younger. And I do like his kind of strategy where he's like, I'm. just looking at the he's literally looking at the UFC's rankings and going who's next. Literally like one spot above him like I think he was like Augusto Sakai. I think he's like last time. I think he's like, oh, I beat Sergei Spivack. He's like, okay,

Augustus Sky next. There you go. Check it off. And that might not be the most exciting thing for fans. Like I'm sure like I said, Doc is as much higher in the radar right now. But that's a very cool way to do it. And if he can keep finishing people and building himself up that way, he's only 28. And he's only, it'll be his 14th pro bout, whoever he fights next. So this is a smart guy. If you can afford to have the UFC not push you at a pace that they prefer and you can do it at your own way, Tom Asplon, more power to you. So I'll give him the edge in futures. It's a tricky thing, right? In all divisions, it's a tricky thing. But I think in particular at heavyweight, it is a very, very precarious road that you travel if you're a young prospect,

because we've seen it's happening right now with Chris Dawkins. He is very young into his career. He's very young into his UFC career. And he's already being thrown in against, I think, a guy who all of us have ranked as the number four heavyweight in the world. So there is no long road unless you really force the issue, right? Because otherwise, we've seen this with all heavyweight prospects. Cyril Gahn getting thrown in there pretty much right away. Same with Francis and Gano. You don't really get time to get your sea legs.

You come into the UFC, you get a couple nice knockouts, and all of a sudden you're fighting a Curtis Blades or a Cyril Gahn or an Alexander Volkov. It's a tough, I'd say there's positives and negatives to it, because certainly you have chance for very quick advancement like we saw with Cyril, but then you have situations like, you know, Francis Ngana, who comes up too soon, too quickly, and then he gets forced back to this road where I would actually, maybe that's not even a good comparison. I would say Jarzino Rosenstruck's probably a good comparison because he came.

Yeah, Tadivasa. Yeah, Taduvasas is one I'd bring up as well. Too quickly and then all of a sudden you find yourself drowning among these monsters who have just been here for a long time. I honestly can't remember the last time we've seen a prospect. like Tom Aspinall be so vocal with this kind of approach. And I actually really like it. Because I agree with you in both senses.

I have Chris Dawkins ahead of Aspinall right now on my ballot as well. But I kind of do favor Aspinall on the long road in terms of his ceiling. I feel like he does have a higher ceiling in this division. And it makes sense too in a little bit away, in a few ways, right? It's the Sean O'Malley thing of you're not paying me more to fight Derek Lewis than you would pay me to fight Augusto Sakai. So why should I fight? Derek Lewis right now. There's no rush. It's a marathon, not a sprint. I respect it, man. Like, I've seen Tom get a lot of crap for this online. Really? I actually really respect

the, him being so vocal with this type of approach. I think, I think he looks so much like Frank Mir. I think that he has somehow absorbed Frank's sort of cerebral approach to, you know, Frank Mear, probably one of the most well-spoken, thoughtful heavyweights I think I've ever seen in the sport of MMA. And I feel like some of that has rubbed off. almost through like doppelganger osmosis that has rubbed off on Tom Aspinall somehow because, yes, he seems to have a level head on his shoulders. And again, if he can avoid any trap, weird trap fights or fights that he shouldn't be taking, I mean, before the age of 30, we're talking again at a guy who's almost guaranteed to at least

fight for a UC title. Do you feel if you had to put an over under on it in terms of 1.5 title fights for these two guys combined in the next two years, meaning both of the, of them will have fought for the title within the two years or just one of them or zero of them. Would you go over or under on that? I'll go under. I think only one of them is going to make it. Who do you think that would be, Dachus?

Just because of the road right now? Well, so I'm kind of giving away my Daucus Lewis pick ahead of time here. I don't think he beats Lewis. I agree with you. I'm picking Lewis. And I'm not saying one lost Lewis will remove him from the title picture forever. I just feel like he'll take that. And then the UFC might still try and match him up with another top five, top six, top seven

guy when he might be better served to again kind of go back to the lower tier of the middle of the pack or lower part of the rankings. So I'm a little concerned for him. I'm glad he's getting the fight. I'm not questioning his choice to take the fight by the way. Like I said, everyone seems to want it. If he thinks he's ready, it's great. If he wins, huge opportunity for him.

But I just think he doesn't get past that. And I just feel like I've seen a little more from Aspinall. So I'll go with Aspinall of being the one to get it. I think I agree with you. It's just, it's so tough at heavyweight. Once you're swimming with the sharks, you, called it with Taito Evas was a good example of Yarzino once you're swimming with the sharks man there's you can drown very very quickly once you're there can we shout out another young heavy one more

heavy under 30 valetor's interim heavyweight champion valentine moldovsky doesn't turn 30 until february so heavyweights we finally feels like we have a cluster of some youngsters who could actually like you know make a mark and and maybe these would be the guys that we're kind of keeping an eye on for the next three or four years and conveniently moldovsky i don't know if i pronounce that right, but he is sandwiched between Docis and Aspinol right now at that number 11 spot. So there you go. 10, 11, 12 at heavyweight. We have this new crop coming up and it is really exciting.

And I am excited to see where these men go. Last round, final round, round number three. And this will just be a quick one, more of a follow up to last month's show. Obviously last month, we spent quite a bit of time talking about the looming MMA fighting Civil War that was brewing amongst the eight-person panel. mainly because of one unnamed rogue panelist. The rogue panelist, as we have taken to calling him, who has decided, who apparently through, you know, various, I can't explain his thought process.

I'm not going to try to. He is not here. He is not here. I can explain. Should we just go ahead and say what's going on here? A very quick clip notes. Essentially, we put in place that if you haven't fought within 18 months, you're out of the rankings because we're trying to keep this moving.

We're not trying to have people hold on to their spot and et cetera, et cetera. He decided that because Amanda Nunes had not fought at Bantamway in 18 months, that means she is now not the number one bantam weight in the world, which is obviously absurd, insane, whatever adjective you want to throw in there because two reasons. One, Amanda Nunes has been fighting, you know, not quite frequently, but she has been fighting over the last 18 months. She has a fight booked right now.

She's been active. There's no reason to take her out of the rankings for inactivity, but also, too, the idea of anyone being the number one Bansom in the world other than Amanda Nunes is certifiably insane, stupid, again, throw in your choice of adjective. It made his decision. It made Jermaine Derandami his number one ranked Bantamie. Which just looks bad for all of us. And Jermatiméh D'Randumie is a great fighter.

She's a great fight. She's accomplished so much in combat sports. I mean, if you want to like all time, she's probably one of the best ever in the brief, you history of MMA, of a high level of professional MMA to compete at 135 pounds. I'm not going to argue that. We have nothing by respect here for the Iron Lady. She is not by any measure right now the best fighter at 135 pounds. That's just ridiculous.

You don't even need to defend it. You don't, like, there's a correct position on this. As you said, his interpretation of the 18-month rule was that, yes, she had not competed in a certain division. I don't know if we tweaked that after, but I thought it was understood that if someone was like a two division champion. Obviously they're staying busy and fighting. They're still fighting.

Yeah. And the other part of it is using common sense. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's the thing. The part that's not in the rules is, has anyone, you know, done something to take in, let's say you think the spot is vacant? Has anyone in that division done enough to take that spot? If there was some fighter in Amanda Nune's absence, some bantamate that had won like five straight

fights and just knock of people out left and right, like essentially like the number one. Then we'd be like, okay, that's fair. Like, that's fair. I think, I think Jermaine Duranmi has fought once since Amanda Nunez's

most recent bantamweight boat. So what? So we don't need to re-litigate it because the only reason that we bring it up is to provide you people

some closure. Because obviously, if you've seen the rankings, right, today, the Wednesday's rankings, Amanda Nunes now has eight first-place votes, as she should.

This issue has been resolved. It's been resolved in a very bizarre way. Apparently, the fact that she has a fight-booked, changed this person's mind, and that was why he reverted back to her, even though that was already a thing last month. The whole thing felt like a fever dream. We had other people on

the panel starting to agree with this person. It was ridiculous. A.K., all I want to ask you is your sanity restored now that this is in order. Yes. And I don't think it's just the rebooking of the Penae fight. I do think that this person heard us. I think they made their point about maybe some holes in the ranking system and their issues with Nunez not competing at 135, I think they came to their senses as well. So not just the rebooking of the fight, I think they're like, okay, you're right. I've been heard. Let's move.

Let's all move on. Let's all move on. And we're all better for it. And let's leave it at that and we'll never, ever talk about this whole chapter again, a, okay, we're going to take a quick break. That has been three rounds on the other side. A free for all that's coming. Oh, goodness.

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All right, we are back. Joining us now, two of the esteemed members of our rankings panel. Damon Martin, Mike Heck. Appreciate you joining us, gentlemen. So we have three main topics that we want to hit today.

Really the three biggest debates that have sort of brewed over this past month of MMA action. So let us start now first with the featherweights. It is a three-way game right now in featherweight land after UFC two-season.

It already was, but UFC 266 has really, I would say, increased maybe the intrigue around this. Obviously, the three men, Alexander Volcanowski, the UFC champion. He defends his belt last month with a nail biter over Brian Ortega. Then, of course, Max Holloway. The People's UFC champion, everyone knows where he's at. And then last but not least, A.J. McKee, the undefeated Belletro champion, who's sort of ruining this two-sum we had brewing here. I think everyone with any shred of common sense would say that these three men are the three best featherweights in the world.

Like that's S tier, A tier, whatever you want to say the top tier is, that's them. Everyone else is a total step below. But it is funny because I think there's a bunch of different ways you could look at this and rank these men. And even just among the four of us, gentlemen, we actually have three different permutations of rankings for these four. So if you don't mind me revealing them, AK and Mike, you have Volcanovsky 1, Max 2, AJ3, Damon. You have Volkinovsky 1, AJ2, and Max 3. and I'm the loser out here with Max Holloway still at number one, Alexander Volcanowski number two and AJ at three.

Of these three, let's start here, because obviously I'm the only weirdo to not rank Alexander Volcanovsky number one. I'm actually not alone there. There's one other panelists on our squad who has Max at number one, but he's at least on this, not on this pod, and so on this one. A rogue panelist, you might say. We said we wouldn't name names, but he's becoming infamous for anyone who listens to this show on some of our other shows.

A rogue panelist, that's all we'll say. I wish he was here because right now I feel like John Snow just unseatheatheathe, I can't speak. John Snow unsheathing his sword against the coming hordean hoard right now. Damon, Mike, AK, I know we're all basking in this afterglow of Alexander Volcanowski's performance. But am I crazy to still have Max at number one? Do I have a bit of a case here? I think at this point you're a slight bit crazy. And I don't think you're totally off the rails.

The only reason I say that is I think rankings are all. always based upon recency bias, you know, what you've done most recently. And in Alexander Volcanowski's case, he just went out there and beat another top five ranked guy in Brian Ortega. So for now, I think he really has solidified his spot. I've said, I think A.J. McKee, you know, in my opinion, is probably the best fed away in the sport in terms of talent. I think he could beat Volcanovsky and Holloway, if ever given the chance. Will we ever see that? I don't know. But based upon wins and losses of what they've done recently, I think Volcanovsky his win over Brian Ortega puts him and solidifies him at number one.

Now, if AJ goes out and, you know, gets a big featherway fight, which unfortunately, in Bellator, I don't know how much that's going to boost him, considering he already beat the highest-ranked guy he could with Patricio Pitbull. But hypothetically there, and then, of course, you got Max coming up against Jaya Rodriguez in November. Hypothetically, if he goes out there and just, you know, assassinate Jaya Rodriguez, again, you can have an argument, well, his win would trump what Volkanowski did. So I think right now Volkanowski is number one and solidified to number one because he just fought and just won a big fight. I think you're insane, Sean. I think you're nuts.

I'm sorry. And I know like in one of the rounds we're going to have, we're going to basically reverse this conversation and pour it all on me. But Volcanowski not only just beat Brian Ortega, but he has two wins over Max all the way. One was clear, utter, like there's no question that he won. The first one was all Volcanovsky. There's no argument to be made. The second one, yeah, I guess if you want to argue it, but I highly recommend anybody listening to this.

If you still feel that Max Holloway was outright robbed in July of last year when they fought, I highly recommend you go back and watch that fight again because I think you're going to have a totally different tale. Watch that fight multiple times. And you will see that Alexander Volcanowski, and I don't want to steal shine from Jed Michoud. He doesn't say a lot of intelligent things, but one thing that was very intelligent that he said.

Louise Louise. Was that? Jed with the drive by. Oh, my gosh. She's the least. I love Jed. I played golf of them the other day. But Volcanovsky and his ability to make infight adjustments,

especially after losing the first two rounds to Max Holloway, is just nothing short of impressive. It really is amazing. And I, like, going through these rankings, I actually was pondering whether to rank Volcanowski higher on the pound for pound list. That's how good I think he is right now. I think far in a way he is the best featherweight in the world. Like I understand that him and McKear,

If they fight, it won't be for a long time down the road. But right now, how can you have anybody else but Alexander Volcanowski in that number one spot? So I think I love you, Sean, but I think you're a little crazy. I think you are a little crazy. Far and away. Far and away, far and away, the best. John, let me. Go ahead.

Let me. Believe it or not, I, almost maybe just to make this even. I'm kind of going to defend, again, I'm a firm, Volcanowski should be number one. But I'll, and I don't mean to step on some of the points, which I'm sure you're going to bring up. I'm kind of I will play devil's advocate here and kind of understand where you're coming from

Holloway probably the stronger resume so far if you'll want to make that case Absolutely Okay second fight very close As you said Volcanowski pretty clearly

won the first Not an most exciting fight Pretty clearly Second fight very close Holloway had I would say the most significant strikes of the fight The knock down around one

The knock down around two But then I think the last three I would say Volcanowski won Four and five comfortably three super close So I had no problem with that That's why Volkovsky is my number one. I felt like he won both fights.

The other thing is, and this is kind of, I'm going to break out some MMA anecdotes or anecdotal evidence. M. M. Mnachdoal evidence. I don't know. The cousin, the often overlooked cousin of MMA math. Because if you want to look at it, you could say Holloway dominated Ortega in their five-round fight. There we go. There we go.

Sean, you and I were at in Toronto. So that was in Toronto. Am I crazy? Yeah, that happened, right? That was a real thing. I remember it was the only time I think you and I have got to cover an event together. So really the greatest moment in my life. And Holloway dominated him for five rounds.

Ortega was very close to finishing Volcanovsky in the third fight. And again, for me, that's a credit to Volcanowski. Again, this is, I would say I love that he had to fight back from adversity and put on this classic fight. But I understand if you're just comparing how the two guys beat Ortega, that's another sort of feather in Holloway's cap. Let me defend my honor here. Please go ahead. I feel very attacked, but I understand why I'm being attacked, but you're wrong. All of you guys are wrong.

And this is the only time I will ever say the rogue panelist is correct on anything. Because this is the one, the only thing that I agree with him in the whole world in right now. Because you just look at the facts, right? Look at the resumes. Just very quickly. Alexander Volcanowski, he's been great. He's been spectacular in the UFC. What are his best wins?

It's Jose Aldo by decision. It's this Brian Ortega fight where, guts through it, crazy fight, one of the best fights of the year, but he almost loses twice. And then he has that one clear win over Max. Max's best wins. There's a long list here,

but I'm not even going to go through them. But just even comparisons sake, Jose Aldo twice, both of which brutal chaos didn't go to decision, Brian Ortega brutally one-sided. I mean, as you said, we were at that fight, and that was just a,

it was almost gross how bad Brian Ortega was beaten by the end of that fight. And then this last fight over Alexander Bull Canoff where I understand Max didn't actually get the scorecard, but the way we have been working within these rankings, I mean, Damon, we talked about this last month

with Corey Sanhagen and T.J. Dilleshaw, sometimes you just see things that you disagree with with your eyes and you kind of have to trust your eyes. If you look at MMA Decisions.com on that Max Holloway, Volkanowski rematch, 64% of the fan scoring on MAscisions.com scored that fight for Max Holloway. 18 of the 27 media scores on M.A. Decisions.com

scored that fight for Max Holloway. website that we all love so very much, scored that fight 48, 47 for Max Holloway. To me, there is justification and reason for saying that Max should have won that fight. In my eyes, he was the winner of that fight. Then you add in what came before and what came after the Calvin Cater fight. Frankie Edgar's on the resume, Charles Oliveira, the matter and the method of all these wins. To me, you can only go off of what we got. And for me, I know Volk has that one very clear win over Max.

but Max, in my eyes, has the most recent win over Alexander Volcanowski, and then he has the better resume, too. And that, to me, is simple. It says he's the better fighter. So if the Red Sox lose to the, so if the Yankees lose to the Red Sox tonight, just because they have most. Which is no one. Just because they have the most world.

Way to catch yourself. Just because they have, and I know we're recording this on the Tuesday, just because the Yankees have more championships, that gives them a boost in the overall MLB rankings. Like, I don't understand. I get where you're coming from. I don't know how that comparison works, though, right? You're comparing Max's, you're saying Max's resume.

We're comparing resumes. We're talking about right now in October of 2021. What Max did five years ago is great. And it leads to a Hall of Fame discussion, but doesn't lead to where he's ranked right the second in time, in this time. Like what Volcanovsky did, he's the number one guy. He has two wins over Holloway. No matter how you slice it, you could score it.

You could go and go back to M.A. decisions and look at how the fans view things. And I take the fan percentage, I don't take, put a whole lot of weight in that because we saw how Volkinovsky was sort of boot out of the building in Las Vegas. And certain fans view Volcanovsky a certain way. So some of that may be a little unjustified. But yeah, I mean, it's, you can't really compare what happened in the last five years to where they're at right now is the point I'm trying to make. Well, here's the, here's the thing. And listen, when you talk about, I think recency bias has to be most important in ranking. So in that regard, Mike, I absolutely agree.

You can't necessarily say what they did five years ago should play a part in how we're ranking them now because, you know, five, six years ago, Volcanovsky, I don't believe he was even into UFC. So you can't really rank that. But you have to go by recency. And I think that's why I put Volcanowski number one currently because he has the most impressive wins currently. He does have one, no one would argue, one legitimate win of her, Holloway. The rematch was very close. Now, I scored it for Max Holloway, but I didn't think it was necessarily a robbery. It wasn't like at the end of the fight where I was like, oh my God, I can't believe they scored it wrong. Unlike, let's say, Corey, excuse me, Corey Sanhagan and T.J. Dillishaw,

where I actually thought that was far more egregious. I thought Corey Sanhagen clearly won that fight, and the judge is just completely blew it. In the Holloway Volcanoxie rematch, I think that was close enough to where I could say, okay, I could see it. I thought Max won. But to To Sean's point, that's kind of what we're talking about here. If we just go by resume, if we just go by what the judges say, then there's going to be a lot of arguments about fights being scored and how fights actually get results because we all know the judges screw things up constantly in this sport. So I have no problem with Sean believing that Max beat Volcanowski the second time.

But to me, that just evens the score. They're one-one. And then since then, yes, I will say the winner of Calvin Cater was incredibly impressive. It was. But Calvin Cater's always been a top-seven, top-eight guy. he's never been a top five legit featherweight in the world, whereas Brian Ortega is, Brian Ortega is there with the winner of a Korean zombie coming back with the Max Holloway fight. He was legitimately a top five guy.

And yes, he had a couple of close moments in that third round. But the scores were ultimately still 50, 45, 49, 46. I mean, it was pretty, you know, at the end of it was a great fight. And Ortega's toughness and durability has to be celebrated. But outside of those two submission attempts in the third round, he wasn't that in the fight. So Volkanowski beating him still matters, and that's why Volcanovsky's number one for me. But to defend Sean a little bit, I can understand why you're saying that Max beat him the second time, so that's why you're scoring him ahead. I just think since then, if you rate them evenly after two fights, let's say they each one won.

After that, you guys see what they're done. I think Volcanowski's win over Ortega is bigger than Max's win over Kater. I love that. Would you not argue that Max beat Brian Ortega much more impressively? He did. It was a very lopsided fight. absolutely it was. But again, but since then, he's now had the win and loss with Volcanovsky, if we're just going to play by scoring. Yes, I agree. I scored Holloway win in the second fight as well.

So if it's 1-1, it's tied, then, you know, hopefully we're going to see a third fight, and we can all, you know, at that point, hopefully agree, you know, who is the best in the world. But until then, I think you've got to go by, okay, those two fights kind of cancel each other out. And I would argue Volcanox's first win over Max was far more impressive because he actually did win a pretty lopsided decision whereas the second one the rematch was much closer and then you have the two fights since then again I think as good

as Calvin Cater is I think he's great he's not a top five guy Brian Ortega is so that to me is why you put Volcanovsky ahead of him This is strong stuff Sean are you wavering? No I'm not wavering because ultimately what it comes down to for me is I feel like Max won the second

fight and I feel like if they fought a third time Max would win and it would be more decisive than that second fight and ultimately that's what it comes down to, right? Is, well, who do you believe in your heart to be the best featherweight in the world? And to me, the evidence, at least right now, points to Max Holloway, but I know I'm sort of alone on an island there. In your heart.

In your heart. My eyes and my heart. Let me say that. These rankings are the product of math, Sean. You know that. You and I, you and I, a little inside baseball here. Sean and I kind of do the math. Sean does some math.

I help double check the math. This is a scientific process to this. Heart, I did not know heart factored into it because I'm, well, actually, well, I'm sure I know there's other parts of the show where I've probably slipped in it has factored in. But theoretically, this is a show about math. And that's why people tune in. You should never. Don't tell my teachers that from high school because they would never believe you that I'm hosting a show about math.

That would make no sense. If it makes you feel any better, you want to get controversial. I think A.J. McKee is the best featherweight in the sport. He just doesn't have a resume. So I was actually about to turn this on you, David. So I'm glad you brought that up. Because of these three, my position may be a tiny bit of greed just. but I feel like a lot of people would probably agree with me as well.

I find your position, Damon, to be the most egregious and probably the most surprising. You're the only one here among us to have Max ranked at number three. How on earth is Max Holloway the third best featherweight in the world? Please defend yourself. Two words, A.J. McKee. That's it. Look at A.J. McKee. The guy, when you look at what he's done, he's gone out there and beaten everyone he's faced.

He's never had a remotely close fight. Now, you can argue and say, well, he hasn't faced the best talent in the world. okay, I'll give you that a little bit because he's not in the UFC, but I think we get so stuck in UFC bias and who we believe are the best guys in the world. Are we going to say that Patricio Pitbull came to the UFC? He couldn't make waves at Featherweight or Lightway. Are we saying he's not that talented? I think A.J. McKee comes in day one, and he is that talented.

And we've seen it throughout time with Strike Force and WEC and guys and girls coming into the UFC and making waves from other promotions. Just because they're not in the UFC doesn't mean they're not great. and AJ McKee has been untouchable. He has not even had a remotely close fight. He has gone out there and beaten the brakes off of everyone he's faced. And then when you go out there and do what you did to Patricia Pitbull, who everyone believed, you know, based on him being the double champ and the run he had been on,

everyone had him pretty highly ranked in the Fed of the 8 division. To go out and beat that guy in like 70 seconds or whatever it was, I don't see how you can't rank that. I'm not saying that Volcanovsky and Holloway aren't great. They're absolutely great. But when you look at what AJ McKee has done, this undefeated run he's been on, the fact that he's had no one even remotely close to his talent level, and then going out there and just putting on a blistering performance against Patricio Pitbull,

that's why I have him rank number two. I don't have him rank number one because I do believe Volcanovsky has the more overall impressive resume right now. It's not a knock on Max Holloway. I think Max Holloway is, you know, I think Max Holloway and AJ are right there neck and neck, but I can't put both of them at number two. So I put AJ at number two because, once again, his more important. impressive win recently, knocking out and dismantling, you know,

Patricio Bitbull in whatever it was 70 seconds is more impressive to me than Max Holloway going out and winning a five-round decision against Calvin Cater. A.K. Mike is putting one, a man with one high-quality win over somebody like Max Holloway with the resume Max Holloway. Is that insane? One high-quality win. Let me, Mike, go ahead, take this. I'm going to look up. I've got to look at AJ's record now. Um, I mean, I don't think he's like, I think he, and I'm probably going to get blasted for this. I think he's less insane than having Holloway ranked above Volcanovsky. What?

What? How about that? What? How about that? Yikes. I mean, I think the idea of Max Holloway is the third best featherweight in the world. I don't like, listen, I don't agree with it. I don't agree with it.

But I'm just, I'm just throwing that out into the world. Like, I listen to, when I listen to you talk about why you ranked Hollowayette, way above Volkinovsky. Like part of me wanted to like jump through the computer screen and just be like, what are you talking about, man? He's got two wins over him. But listen to Damon, like at first I was like, I had like one foot ready to go and then like I sat back down on my chair.

I'm like, you know what? He makes some pretty good points there. And the thing that hurts AJ, much like Damon said, is like the strength of schedule. The Patricia Pipple win is massive. And that boosts his stock like a whole lot. And I think the win over Pipple is a better win than the Calvin Cater win. I'm a big Calvin Cater fan. Why do we keep going back to Calvin Cater as if Max Holloway hasn't destroyed Brian Ortega recently and like all these other names?

There was three years ago. That was three years ago. What is it? Who cares? What do you mean? Different guy. Different guys. Different guys. Different guys.

Different guy. Didn't break his hand in the first 15 seconds of the fight. You know, different, different fighter. He also has two losses to Volcanowski since fighting Brian Ortega. Well, we're going to get to it later, but there's a certain someone who Mike has ranked ahead of a certain someone who has two wins over her. So, you know. Can I ask a hypothetical question? Damon, can I ask a hypothetical question?

Now I'm curious. A lot has to happen for this to unfold, obviously. But I think we're all expecting Volcanozky and Holloway to fight a third time. Holloway, of course, has a capacity a year. And by the way, I'm sure he'll be like a three to four to one favorite. Weirder things have happened in M.M.A. than a guy as good as a year, like, landing some random, like, spinning strike or something on max. And, you know, we could this could be like a Uriha-Haw-Musassi-1 situation.

Right? It could happen. It could happen. I certainly wouldn't bet on it. But let's say Holloway beats him and then sets up a third fight with Volcanovsky. Let's say in this time, McKee maybe fits a title defense in there, another dominant title defense. If Holloway beat Volcanovsky in the trilogy, Damon, would you then put Holloway back at number one and flip their spots? Or would McKee jump to number one.

Holloway beating Volcanowski would 100% put him number one. Doesn't matter how we did it. It doesn't matter how the fight goes, though. Well, no, because here's the thing. It's about, I keep saying it's recency bias because that's how rankings work. You know, I would say that, you know, in college football right now, even though they lost to Oregon, I think the Ohio State University, yes, I'm biased. The Ohio State University is better than Michigan and Penn State who are ranked higher than them. Listen, guys.

But the reality is, the reality is Ohio State lost to Oregon. As much as I hated, they did lose to Oregon. So right now they're ranked lower than two undefeated teams above them, even though I think they would beat both undefeated teams. teams and I think they will this season, but it matters on what happens on the field, or in this case in the cage. And if Volcano, if Holloway can beat Volcanovsky, even if it's another razor close fight, that's the number one, in my opinion, the number one and number three guys fighting, you can't get there. AJ McKee is kind of stuck now. I mean, I'm not denying that. Like, I put him in number two because of his entire, what he's the run he's been on and the big win

over Patricio Bibble, the fact that it was a 72nd, just obliteration. But he's stuck now because unless he goes and Bellator signs some other legit featherweights to come in and challenge him. We don't even know if AJ's going to stay at featherweight at this point. But hypothetically, you know, just beating Emmanuel Sanchez, does beating, and that's not a knock on him, just beating any of the other guys in the Bellator roster right now really boost him to where he could be number one. I don't think so. That's the problem AJ is going to run into now is I think number two is kind of where he tops out right now. So would he drop to three in that sort of the hypothetical situation?

Would he drop to three or would just Holloway and Volcanowski would switch places? Again, it depends on when AJ, if AJ fights again and wins again. Who he fights, yeah. If he's sitting out, if he's fighting it lightweight and AJ, excuse me, and Volcanovsky and Holloway put on another instant classic and Holloway wins, then yeah, AJ probably would get bummed back to number three. He's number two for me right now, again, based on recency bias. Now, if Holloway goes out there and just completely dismantle Jaya Rodriguez,

it's not a fight. It's just a one-sided, just, you know, steamroll. there's a good chance I might rank Holloway above AJ because again, recency bias because even as impressive as AJ was against Patricio, Max doing that to another top five, top six guy ranks him ahead of that. I love this idea. I love this idea that Max Holloway needs to prove himself right now. Well, no, it's okay.

I get it. I get it, though. But here's the thing. And like I said, AJ is kind of stuck now. I don't know. He really is. He's stuck because there's nobody else. There's good fighters in Bellator.

There's legitimately good fighters in Belator in the Featherweight Division, but he already beats the best guy and beat the brakes off of him. There's not really a higher bar to set for him, unfortunately. So let's keep it moving. You bring up Belator. We've been talking about Belator. The next topic... One more thing, Sean. We need to have a rule next time we have Mike and or Damon on.

No Buckeyes talk. No, none of these others... No. And I could bring up the Toronto Raptors or Sean could bring up the Phoenix Suns. But let us... You guys get one. That was one. Please, no more.

It's on a video show. I know you're wearing a Red Sox hat. I can feel it. I'm wearing a shirt. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry. Sean, continue.

Let's move on. We're talking about Bellator. The topic of Bellator really embodies our second topic here. MVP versus Douglas Lima, or really we should call this, how do you rank a controversial result? Because this fight caused some of the biggest jumps of the entire month. And it also became sort of one of low-key, the biggest points of contention, within the team because you look at Michael Page.

Obviously, he wins this split decision. It seemed to be a very controversial decision. I actually scored it for Page in the moment. I'm somewhat confused by a lot of the outrage. But, you know, it was a close fight. People scream robbery at anything at this point. I get it. Michael Page was ranked as high as number eight by someone on our team and as low as

number 13. So a decent bit of rage there, but generally around top 10, the periphery of the top 10. Douglas Lima, likewise, was as high as number four for one person. and as low as unranked entirely for another. So this fight has this going wildly different directions all across the team. How did you guys just generally approach a situation like this when you're putting your list together where it's a result that is controversial

and you don't really know how to feel about it afterwards? I think you go with the eye test, honestly. And I'll just jump in first because I am one of those people who has Douglas Lima out of the top 15 now. You are actually the only person who has. has Douglas Lima out. I am. The only person to not think

Douglas Lima is a top 15, well, toward. Listen, if that fight did nothing really for me, except the fact that Michael Page got his hand raised. Like, that's all it did. Like, neither guy did a whole lot. I, at first watch,

I scored it for Page, going back, like, this was one million percent not a robbery. And if you're saying that, then you're just not a fan of fighting and you don't know what you're watching. So I think Paige, like, I gave him like a slight bump up.

But then I looked at just overall, like, what Douglas Lima has done in his last three fights. And once in a while, you take a shot of greatness. You take a shot at doing something that not many people have done before, him going up to 185 and fighting Gayguard Musassi. And now had that fight not gotten bit with COVID and been delayed so far into the future, like, who knows how that fight would have gone? Who knows if the timing would have been better for Douglas Lima?

and we would be having a totally different conversation right now. But Douglas Lima got humbled up in that fight by Gigab Musasi. For some reason, that just took the wind out of his sails. And then going in there and fighting Yaroslav Amosov, and I was there. I was in the building. I was just a few feet away watching Yaroslav Amosov take down Douglas Lima over and over and over again. I was seated right behind Douglas Lima's corner, watching him stand up and look at his coaches and just be like, what am I supposed to do with this? I can't do anything. There's nothing I can do. The frustration on his face.

I was just like, I don't know if this is the same guy anymore. I just don't know. And then him going in there against Michael Page. And it was a close fight. He had his moments. He's still got some stuff in there. But it just seems like that Musassi fight took a lot away from him. I don't know if it's mental or physical. If it's just like the resume just building up and father time taking over. Like it happens to everybody. It's undefeated. So to me, like just look. looking down and going through some of the different Walter weights in the world, I look at guys like Ray Cooper the 3rd and Daniel

Rodriguez and Sean Brady. I'm like, can these guys beat Douglas Lima right now? And the answer to that question is yes, they can be Douglas Lima right now. And I would favor all of them to be Douglas Lima right now, just the way he's been looking. So that's how I look at it. It's the eye test. It's the eye test that I've been giving myself

for the last nine, ten months right now with Douglas Lima. So he goes back there, gets a high quality win. He could get himself back up there. But kind of looking at some of these welterweight guys, some of these up-and-comers. I mean, I don't have my top 15 right now. I just can't put them in there. I agree with a lot of what Mike is saying in terms of the eye test.

And that fight, the second fight between Page and Lima was just demonstrably bad. It wasn't a good fight. I mean, anyone that says it was a great fight, you're lying to yourself. It was a bad fight. Michael Page was looking out. Point him, Douglas Lima did a whole lot of nests. nothing. That being said, I did score the fight for Douglas Lima. Overall, I thought he did the better job. And round by round, I thought he won.

I think I scored a three, two, but it was close. It wasn't a robbery. I don't think people screaming robbery actually watched the fight or two one, sorry, two one. I guess. I forgot five rounds. We wish he was three three. Yeah, only. Two one. Two one, excuse me, two one, uh, uh, bellator. Uh, so two one, but again, it wasn't a robbery. It was a close fight. The problem and, and why I still have Douglas Lima ranked and I actually don't have, Michael Vennon Page ranked at all is because now Michael Vennon Page has basically one win. He has

Douglas Lehman. Now that is a good win but I don't consider it again much like the T.J. Dillishaw, Corey Sanhagen and again my Sean with Max Holloway Volcanowski I don't really consider that I mean again let's just call it a draw it was not a good fight I scored for Douglas Lima but no one

definitively won that fight I refuse to believe you could definitively argue one guy over the other won that fight so in that case I kind of leave Lima where he's at and for me Michael Vennon Page still has to do more because when you look below Douglas Lima it's just I mean it looks like

it's like a Campbell soup commercial it's just nothing but tomato cans so don't tell me that Michael Venn and Page has done more than enough to earn a higher ranking because he hasn't his one quality win is this one and to me it wasn't

worst it was a draw it wasn't a win deepest apologies to Ross Houston, Shinsho Anzai, Paul Dei, Giovanni Malillo, my goodness, Richard Keely, deepest apologies gentlemen. Paul, Paul,

but that was, again, that was a weird fight. That was a weird, weird, weird fight. That was a really bad fight. Oh, my gosh. Paul Daly's a legend. Let me give Paul Daly some credit. Paul Daly's a legend. I love Paul Daly, but that fight was abysmal. Let's be honest. Also, for transparency's sake, Damon, you did have Michael Page in your rankings, but he was the

lowest of anybody that had him. He was number 13. Okay, I couldn't I put in, but yeah. Yeah, I want to say, I believe the rankings came out today, today, right? Wednesday, yeah. The show will air. Yeah, so the show that came out today. So last month, Michael, we touched upon this to beginning of the show, Sean, but just to repeat, Michael Page was tied for 15th with Li Jing Liang.

And in the current rankings will now be number 11. So not quite in the top 10 yet, but that's a huge jump in what's, you know, really traditionally a very difficult division to making moves in, especially when you're not in the UFC. So for him to jump four spots in a close win is pretty crazy. I'm responsible for that, I admit. I had Page unranked in all of our previous rankings. And I again, like I said, I kind of thought he won the fight. And I had Lima super high.

I had Lima in the top five. So I kind of had to do some real reshuffling if I'm respecting the page win as much as I did. And Lima dropped down, Paige jumped over him. But yeah, he went from not ranked in mind to number eight. So for me, again, maybe I'm two differential, excuse me, to the, you know, to the official decision. But he did, for me, he kind of did do enough to convince me that he deserves you up there. I do wish his resume was stronger.

But I feel like, you know, I've probably been a defender of their matchmaking for him for a long time, as in a lot of this stuff was out of control, head of his control. It's some of these guys late injury replacements. So, and that's not being an excuse. You know, part of going up in the rankings and being successful in the MA is luck, is getting those, you know, getting the right opponents, getting booked. So I might be giving him a little too much credit and being unfair to some guys who I have ranked below him who were able to get those tough fights and won some of them and lost some of them. But I feel comfortable with it.

So, yeah, I moved him in my top 10. So I went from not ranked to the highest, I think, of all of us, MVP. Let me apologize for me. I was looking. I flip, I flip up the guys I was talking about. I meant to say I was, I put, I apologize. I put Douglas leaving behind page because of the fight, but I put Ray Cooper. That was the one I was trying to think of.

I put Ray Cooper ahead of Michael Page because I know what Ray Cooper did. more recently was more impressive than Michael Page beating Douglas Lima. I apologize. I was flip-flop and the guys I had flipped. I couldn't remember who I flipped flopped. It was Ray Cooper. So Ray Cooper I put above Michael Venom page because I think what he's done more recently with the Roaring McDonald fight was more impressive than what Michael Page did to Douglas Lima in kind

of a snoozer. Either way, I think the conversation that sort of emerges from something like this, right, is really fascinating because, Mike, I'm going to admit, I was coming on here. I was ready to blast you to shreds for having Douglas Lima out of the top 15. you kind of sold me a little bit, right? Like, we haven't seen a real solid, even performance from this guy for a long time. And if we are going on recency bias and we are going on who's the best right now, I think you could make a case that, you know, a Ray Cooper would beat him or a Daniel Rodriguez or Sean Brady.

I don't know. But the fact that that's even defendable is interesting. Because I think just a few, like a year ago probably, a lot of us would have considered Douglas Lima top five Walter Waite in the world or maybe even top eight, top seven in that range. So it is interesting how quickly it can change, but also a result like this, how nabulous it can be. Last topic, let's move on. Who is the real pound for pound queen? There has been a, there has been consistency all across the board on the women's pound for pound list since we have brought these rankings into existence over the last couple months.

Amanda Nunes was the number one. She continues to be the number one. But Valentina Shvchenko's latest dalliance with perfection here has ignited a conversation that, I actually don't think I expected. Last month, if you look at the rankings, Mananuta's got seven out of eight of the number one votes for pound-for-pound women's number one. Now it's five.

She siphoned off two more this month, one away from a tie, just like a Peter Yon-Aljermaine situation like we have at Bantamweight. Mike, I hope you feel comfortable with me revealing that you were actually one of those defectors who fled to the Valentina side. And so I believe that the other three of us on this pod

have Amanda Nuna is still number one, but AK you even admitted to me, yesterday, you're kind of getting on the fence. You're starting to wobble a little bit on that position. That was off the record, Sean. That was off the record. Hey, transparency is what we do on the spot. That was between you and me. And let me say, we say we wouldn't name names. The other person who voted, and if anyone who regularly reads, I'm fighting will know who I'm talking about. The other person who's defected, who's not on the show right now, I'm surprised that they hadn't earlier, because they are like the number one fan of Valentina Shofchenko, but only now, only after the most

recent win, did they flip Shuchchenko and Nunez? So, I was surprised. That is a good point. Mike, throw it to you. My question, just, why now? Like, what was sort of the last, what was it about UFC 266 that really sold you and pushed you over the fence on this one? Okay, so let me tell you my thought process on this because the other gentleman that you spoke of that remains nameless probably could not, if he could caps lock his vote and put Valentina Shipchenko's name in there, he would have put it in there. He probably would have put six exclamation points behind it. Like, he was that short of himself. Me, I was not. I flip-flopped many, many times. I wrote both names many, many times. But to me, I thought about the overall body of work over the last couple of years.

Okay. Like, I understand that Amanda Nunes has two wins over Valentina Shepchenko. I also understand that both those fights were not all that entertaining. So I kind of like just knocked that out of the conversation right now. I'm looking at the last five to six fights for both of these ladies. Hold on. Hold on. We're talking. The whole theme of this conversation has been recency bias and what we've seen with our eyes. Okay. So to me, and I think I'm not alone on this, Nunes and Shepchenko are more like 1A, 1B than they are 1-2 in this conversation. And to me, what I've seen over the last couple of years, okay, looking at Nunes's resume, the cyborg win is super impressive and that put her ahead. No doubt about it. Holly Holie Holie, home win kind of questionable because holly home didn't deserve to be in a title play let's just be honest she just didn't deserve to be there the duranami win very good win then felicia spencer not i mean it's just there it's a win that's who you that you were offered you beat her not that impressive megan anderson there you go you did what you were supposed to do against someone who

were like a minus 43 000 favorite over for chivchenko i think what got me leaning towards her was in April when she fought Jessica and Drage. I'm like, all right, finally. Finally, she's going to get tested. Finally, someone's going to give her a run for her money and work her and let her face some adversity.

And the performance that she put on against Jessica and Drage at UFC 261 in my opinion is the most underrated performance of 2021 so far. That was a perfect game. She pitched an absolute perfect game against someone who a lot of people thought could be

one to beat her. Like, they actually thought, like, they thought Shepchenko would struggle in this fight. And she went out there and, to quote Jebysu, she put the size nines to her for eight minutes and 19 seconds, did not face one second of danger. Then she goes out and beats Lauren Murphy. And she did what the odds told her to do. But Lauren Murphy had also won five fights in a row. She had absolutely deserved her opportunity to fight for a world title. This wasn't a Felicia Spencer. This wasn't a Megan Anderson. This wasn't a Holly Holm. She fought a woman that absolutely deserved to be in that spot. And she beat the brakes off of her.

And Lauren Murphy, if you watch my interview with her, we'll tell you the exact same thing. It's just a whole different level. And then hearing Laura just describe what it was like being in there with Valentina and looking into her eyes and moments where she was going to throw a shot, but then looked in Valentina's face and realized, oh, no, I can't throw that shot. I'm going to pull that right back.

That just like kind of put me over the edge. So in a 1A, 1B conversation, right this second, I feel like Schifchenko is the 1A. Now, if Nunes goes in there and beats Giuliana Pena, who I think Pena presents some interesting challenges to her, then she gets the spot right back. It's one A, one B. It's just, it's a recency thing. Schifchenko right now squeaks up the top in the A spot. That's all it is.

This is no disrespect to a man in Nunes. I'm not saying if they fought again that Nunes wouldn't beat her again, but we don't really know. So right now, in October, in the year of our Lord, 2021, Valencia Chifchenko is one. Amanda Nunes, a very respectable 1B. Do you want me to come through on this one? Because I'm about to jump to the speaker on this one. Do it. Do it, David.

Okay. Let me say this. I love Valentina Chichenko. I think she's amazing. So anything I say, you know, regarding her resume compared to Amanda Nunes, it's not an insult. It's just a reality of what we're facing. And the reality is the flyway division is far less impressive, let's say, than the Bentonway division.

Now, the one win, the biggest win on Valentina's record in recent memory is her Jess Gondrosh fight. I agree. That was the one that truly put her in that conversation of saying, wow, she really looks untouchable right now because Jess Gondrash has the resume and the performances to back up to say she should have been a legitimate threat to Amanda Nunes and she did nothing. I mean, it was just a completely lopsided fight. So that one's big. I love Lauren Murphy. I've interviewed Lauren many times. Lauren's awesome.

But Lauren has never been. I mean, until she got to the flyway division, she had never been that fighter. She had never been that top-rank kind of fighter, you know, in that discussion. And there's a reason why Valentino was a minus, you know, 4,000 favorite or whatever going into that fight because no one really gave Warren Murphy much of a chance. Same thing with Jennifer Maya. Same thing with Caitlin Chukagan. Same thing with, you know, going down the line in terms of, you know, people that Valentina has beaten in recent years.

Now, I'll give you Megan Anderson and Felicia Spencer aren't the most impressive wins. on Amanda Nunes' resume. But go just a couple of fights beyond that. Jermaine Durandami, former champion, Holly Holm, former champion, Chris Seibor, arguably one of the greatest women's fighters of all time. Those three wins by themselves, and they were all completely lopsided.

Cyborg got assassinated in 51 seconds. Holly Holm got knocked out in four minutes and 10 seconds, and Jermaine Durandami got beat for the better part of all 25 minutes in there. Those three wins alone, not to see, say Megan Anderson and Felicia Spencer don't exist, but those three wins alone, Trump, anything on Valentina's recent resume. There's nothing remotely close to that. Jessica Andrage is the one, but I'd say, okay, let's just cancel her out. Well, let's say Jermaine Durandami,

because Jermaine Durandami kind of was a weird UFC champion. She had, you know, one win and then left the division. But Holly Holm has been a legit top three Bantonway, pretty much her entire UFC career after she, you know, won her first couple of fights that knocked out Ronda and she's been there ever since. Chris Cyborg is an all-timer. Chris Cyborg is one of the greatest women's mixed martial artists of all time. Unfortunately, and I love Valentina, she doesn't have that kind of resume. She has very impressive wins.

I'll give you that. But this kind of comes down, and I'm sorry I'm kind of taking a sideways shot at this. This kind of comes back to like why I never ranked Demetrius Johnson as the number one pound for pound fighting the sport. Talent-wise, Demetrius was amazing. Demetrius is talent-wise one of the greatest fighters to ever compete in Mixed mixed martial arts. But I'm sorry, you know, beating Chris Carriago, was it Chris Carriazo and some of the other guys on his resume. I'm sorry, that just doesn't trump at the time when I argued, like, why John

Jones was number one, because I'm sorry, John Jones just had a much better resume overall. And same thing here. Amanda Nunes just has the better resume, the better wins and the more impressive wins. The one big win on Valentina's resume in recent years has been Jessica and Dros. and you could argue maybe the Yawanna-Jechak fight, but even that one is a little, you know, not suspect, but a little weird because Valentina was, or excuse me, Yonah was coming up in division.

It was our first fight at 125, really weren't sure. And we have no, we have no body at work to say Yonah's going to be a great flyway. Now, if she moves there and ends up becoming a number one fighter again, sure, but there's no, there's no proof that Yonah is going to be a killer at flyweight

the way she's been a killer at strawweight. So that's a, that's a good win. That's an impressive win. but we just don't know, Jessica Androche is the other one. But come on, Jermaine,

Cyborg and Holly Holmner, that tell me those three wins aren't more impressive than one win over Jessica and Dros? I don't buy it. I didn't say that, though. I didn't say that. I gave her credit for the Duranmi win.

I gave her credit for the Cyborg win. I'm not giving her that much credit for the Holly Holm win when she went into that fight two and four over her last six fights. She didn't deserve to be in that shot. She was there for name value alone, and that's it.

Not for merit. Lauren Murphy deserved to be in a title fight. more than Holly Holie Holm deserved to be in that title fight, Damon. Like, I understand the name value is there and it looks nice and shiny on the resume. But again, the whole purpose of this discussion and the whole theme of it all is recency. What have you done lately? And what Valentina Shepchenko has done between 2020 and right now, the wins that she's put together, the performances she had against the fighters that she did them against is better.

It's just better. Like Chukagin, Maya, Andrade, and Murphy are better than Spencer and Anderson. They just are. But I mean, there has to be some level of a balance struck, right? Because I understand that recency is a big aspect of this. But also, it's not as if Amanda's lost either during this stretch. Like, recency can be one thing, but also, like, legacy and resume still matters if somebody just is undefeated for as long as she's undefeated and having cleaned out the division

as much as she's cleaned out. My question is like, Mike, I understand your position, but how is this any different from what you were arguing against in the first topic with the Alexander Volcanovsky-Max Holloway conversation where somebody is up 2-0 and yet you're arguing against it? I don't know. Like, I mean, that was part of the argument. Sure. But again, but those fights are recent, too. They were much more recent than these Schivchenko fights. They just were.

They're part of the Holloway story. like Holloway's last three fights feature Alexander Volcanoffsky and two of them and he lost both of them so if we're talking recency in the theme of this conversation that's part of the discussion right now Shepchenko and Nunes how far

along was that last fight five years ago aren't the Nunes fights part of a big part of four years ago but aren't they a big part of Valentina's story where that's essentially what sent her down to flyweight right like that's sort of what sent her away from the Bantamway division was there's no real road to the title there for her.

But there was no 125 at that point either. Very true. They basically built the division for her in essence. I mean, she wasn't part of the tough season, but neither was Johani and J.

Chas are 115. But to that point, though, that's where my problem comes in with this whole thing is the flyway division, as great as Valentina has been, the flyway division just isn't great. I mean, anyone that's going to argue

with the otherwise is lying. Come on now, guys. I'm really going to sit here and say the talent at 125. is as deep or as talented right now. Now, maybe it will be in a couple years. It takes time for these divisions to develop. Bantamweight has been around pretty much forever in terms of the women's divisions,

and we have a lot of video proof to back up, you know, wins over Misha Tate, how much that means. A win over Rhonda Rousey, how much that means. A win over Hollyholm, how much that means. A win over Jermaine Durandami, how much that means. At Flyweight, we're saying, well, yeah, Lord Murphy, and I'm not trying to single out Laura Murphy, but I'm using her because she was the last win. Yes, she was on a five-fight win streak. Her five wins came against Mara Ramello Borrella, Andrea Lee, who I'm not even sure where she's ranked right now, Roxanne Motifery, who I absolutely adore, but Roxanne is not a top five, I mean,

come on. And then Lillia Shakirovo is not even in the UFC anymore. She lost and got bounced out of the organization because she popped hop. And then, and then Julianne Calderwood, who was always like a top five or six fighter at Strawweight and she's kind of a top five or six fighter at Flyweight. Are we going to say those five wins because they're five in a row, that puts her in the same category as a Holly Holm?

Are you kidding me? Two and four, be damned. Don't tell me that those five wins are more impressive to what Holly Holm is done. Come on. I don't know. Why don't you compare the featherweight division of the flyweight division? Yeah. Well, look, I think. Okay, Chris, okay, Chris Seibor.

That's all I'm going to say. Chris Seibor. I'm done. Chris Seiber. I'm done. Spencer, Anderson. I'm talking about the last two years. But that's only one belt of hers. She hasn't fought a bandway in two years. Where is Valentinas win over, where is Valentinas win over a fighter of Chris Cyborch caliber?

I mean. I don't hear anything. That doesn't exist. Well, I mean, if you want to talk, again, that's probably where the Yawaniath J-Chic win would come up, right? Like you said, she doesn't have the track record of 125, but she's certainly one of the pound for pound,

like, all-time greatest, you know, women's fighters of all-time. And then. But we're talking about pound for pound. This is not just divisional rankings. This is pound for pound. When you talk about pound for pound, you're about what they've done

throughout their entire career. So when you think about Amanda Nunes going up and 51 seconds taking out Chris Cyborg, who has never in her career had anyone do that, or even remotely close to that. To go out and do that, that to me, and Amanda is not a natural featherweight.

She isn't anymore. She started her career in featherweight. She is a natural base. She is more of a bands and weight fight. We all know that. Yes, she's kind of. way, but she is not a true featherway. She is not a massive, huge featherweight.

Chris Seidborg, when, yes, I admit, Felicia Spencer and Megan Anderson are not the most oppressive wins in the world, but, I mean, Jennifer Maya is, Jessica I is, Liz Carmouch at this point is, Caitlin Chukagy. I mean, they're all good wins, but I'm not, they're not established in terms of they've built these resumes where he said, wow, man, that's a huge win.

Jessica Andrage is, I will give her that one. I love that win. That's a big one. But I just, I just, Lauren and Jennifer and Caitlin, they're all great. They're all really good fighters. But I don't put them in the same category in terms of pound for pound. It's Holly Holm, Jermaine Durandami, Chris Cyborg. It's a very top heavy division though, Bantamweight.

I mean, I think we can agree flyweight's probably the deeper division now. I don't think that's, I would think that's a fair thing to say. I get what Damon is saying that at the top, you know, as you get close to the top, that the names like GDR, Holly Holm, even Aldana, maybe even Payne, way a bit heavier than Andrade Chukagin Murphy and on our list Juliana Velasquez, Jennifer Maya. But I think it's more comparable than

than Damon is making it. I do think Flywood actually is, I think Flywood actually is a good division. But so my issue for here is, because again, I'm a Nunez. I have to have Nunez number one. Nunez really what's unfortunate for her is she can't like she can't go back and beat Randa Rousey again. She can't beat, I mean, she can't beat

Misha Tate again now, but it wouldn't mean what it meant back then. She can't beat, what is some other, when she's honestly, she's a victim of her own success in these type of conversations, right? When she beat Sarah McMahon, that was a big win. As a long time ago now, but that was a very big win at the time. And Sarah McMahon, again, I think it was a top, it was a top bantam weight. Raquel Pennington, I think,

was a good win when it happened. And on the fights, not particularly memorable, except for his brutality. And then, of course, Chris Cyborg, which happened at 1.45. So I think, yeah, it is unfortunate that she has, she did have to end up fighting, you know, It's solid, but unspectacquitably fires like Megan Anderson, Fletje Spencer. So that's the only thing. She cleared it.

Well, that's how when you clear it out. So that's why I can't drop her down because it's not her fault. She can't beat these people again. Because I would take, if I were to look at their complete UFC resumes, I would take, like, Nunez's, you know, top three, top four wins over Shepchenko's top three, top four wins any day. So, again, it does depend how far you want to go back. I think no question. I do think Shepchenko's last three, you know, four fights are maybe a bit.

stronger than Nunez's, but I have to include all this, all this, you know, all the past and how dominant Nunez has been. So there's a very strong argument. And they're only being separated, I think, by two points, if I'm not mistaken. It's the narrowest of margins within our internal scoring right now. Which in pound for pound is crazy. It happens a little bit closer in the divisions. A pound for pound, it's really difficult. So somehow in a list with that much, you know, with that much depth, that pound list is that means. Two points, two points separating Nunez, Chepchenko. And that's, okay, listen, let me, can I just say one thing? I, I came into this conversation feeling like I'm probably wrong. Like, I'm probably wrong here. Okay. But again, I'm just, at the beginning, when I mentioned, like, how difficult it was when it came to that decision, when I finally like, when the eyes just kind of lit up and I just hit send, like that's where I was at that moment. Like, all right, Chivchenko. And this is like, this is not a one to two. This is not a one to three. This is like, this is like, by. milla points like miller numbers that i have shivchenko leaned up nunes goes out there and just

beats juliana pania in any way possible she's the number one pound for pound women's fighter in the world that she will be number one okay that that that's where i'm at just like right this second like chivchenko is like an in like just a milla inch ahead of her but if nunez beats pania she is the clear number one like there's no there will be no waiting back and forth for me she goes back to bannam weight she beats juliana pania in december she's the clear number one in my mind. That's where I'm at right now. And I'm just sticking with it. That's all. And I'm probably wrong. And I'm probably, a lot of people probably going to agree with what Damon said. And you know what? I almost agreed with what Damon said overall. But I mean, that's just where I'm at. Like it's one A,

1B. Schiuchenko is like a nose ahead. But with a win over Julianna Pena, which Damon's talking about resume and bigger names, I feel like even though Pena is not ranked as high, I feel like her name carries a little more weight than Jennifer Mai and Lauren Murphy does. So that puts her one by herself. And also, and let me end to A.K.'s point, real quick. A.K. brought up, you know, of course, the, when you talk about, like, Amanda Nunes is kind of a victim of her own success.

So who is Chowcchino, who is Chowcchino going to fight now? Probably. Who is left out there? Like, who is, the winner was the Calderwood and who's Calderwood fighting coming up? Grasso. Yeah, Grosso has looked good. But if Grosso beats her, we're going to, I mean, she's still going to be a minus 5,000

favorite. Like, who is left for Chonko to beat? Well, that's the thing, right? It's the next generation. Well, not even that, right? It's the trilogy, right? Like, that seems to be where this is leading. Because we've reached a really unusual place with these two women where, Mike, you're kind of right,

where it's basically whoever had the most recent win is going to be higher in a lot of people's eyes. And it's a very, I can't think of many comparisons in MMA history where we've had two fighters, this dominant and this equal going at each other, not going at each other, but sort of within the range of each other, right? Like GSP Anderson, you can sort of point to that. but it's very uncommon where you get two levels of dominance, this equal, and sort of within reach of each other. So it does feel as if something's changed within Valentina Shvchenko after this last win. For years, we've been asking her about this Amanda Nunes fight, and both of them have just sort of shrugged it off as something that neither of them want. And now, if you saw her on the MMA hour after that win, she seems to want it.

And she seems to be motivated for it. And I'm here for it because that really feels like the only thing that will ultimately answer this question that we've been. And asking within it with just internally within the sport for the past couple years is who's the better woman. That trilogy fight right now feels like the perfect time, the perfect moment, the perfect set of circumstances to actually figure that out. Agreed. I agree. All right. Well, hey.

You brought peace back to the family, Sean, I feel. We got to end it on a high note, right? Yeah. We're all family here. We love each other. We got to end it amicably. But that's what happens on this show. Things get heated sometimes.

you just, sometimes you just got to yell at family, you know? Shake some sense into it. Anyway, that has been it for us on the MMA fighting ranking show this month. Thank you so much for joining us. Once again, we really do appreciate you. Same time next month, first Wednesday. Looking forward to it with all you. In the meantime, that man is Alexander K. Lee for Mike, for Damon.

Keep it locked to MMA fighting. We love you guys. Have a great rest of October. And we'll see you soon. Love you, Damon. Spicy.