MMA Fighting - Roundtable: Francis Ngannou’s Free Agency Gambit A Success? Analyzing All Angles Of Champ's PFL Move

Episode Date: May 17, 2023

Francis Ngannou has not only found a new home, but he spoke with Ariel Helwani on The MMA Hour about some of the particulars of his massive deal with the PFL, the naysayers about his free agency, other promoters having their say on his free agency after parting ways with the UFC, and more. While Tuesday was officially a massive win for both Ngannou and the PFL, there are still lingering questions surrounding it all. MMA Fighting's Mike Heck, Shaheen Al-Shatti, and Steven Marrocco react to the news and Ngannou's appearance on The MMA Hour, reveal their long-term questions for both the former UFC heavyweight champion and the PFL, the boxing side of the equation, and much more. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Shaun Al-Shatti: @ShaunAlShatti Follow Steven Marrocco: @MMAFightingSM Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two, ghosts in the machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprise his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster. The Downloaded, it's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, What are you willing to lose to save the ones you love?

The Downloaded 2. Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Support for this show comes from the Audible original, The Downloaded 2. Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster,

The Downloaded. It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded two,

ghosts in the machine. Available now, only from Audible. The Vox Media Podcast Network. All right, everybody, thank you for joining us in the M.A. Fighting Podcasting Network and our continuing coverage of Francis Nganoo's

official new home with the Professional Fighters League. I am Mike Hack. Hope everyone's having a wonderful day. And in case you've been living under a rock on this Tuesday. The former UFC heavyweight champion, the man who made the choice

to leave the UFC, to relinquish the heavyweight title and enter free agency. The man who gambled on himself, the gamble has paid off. He signs this could be unprecedented deal with the PFL, not just to compete in mixed martial arts.

He's allowed to box. He also has equity and leadership roles within the company with the PFL. He has a seat on the PFL global advisor. board. He's the new chairman of PFL Africa and got a whole bunch of different perks for not only himself but also his fellow fighters. The news was broken as part of a

joint announcement between the promotion and in Ghana with the New York Times. And Gano has done some interviews since the announcement on Tuesday morning, most notably with us on the MMA hour with our colleague Ariel Hawani and some things were made a little bit more clear from his perspective. Others we still have questions about. So let us discuss this a little more here as I'm joined by the wonderful deputy editors of mhmathinge al-shadhi and stephen morocco joining us and gentlemen

what a day indeed this news drops when most normal people are fast asleep dreaming the good dreams and while people were hitting the snooze button francis's good dreams became official so jehine i will begin with you and then stephen you can jump right in when he when he's done this news obviously was not a secret it was one of the worst kept secrets in the history of the sport Francis going to the PFL and now the eyes are dotted and the T's are crossed. So, Shaheen, we got to see a lot of the particulars of this deal with the PFL. After seeing it, everything that it entailed, what was your reaction to it all? I mean, first of all, it is an unequivocal win at this point, right?

Like, I think a lot of it is still pending. Like, I think that's important to notice that a lot of this is still pending. There's a lot that this deal entails. And that in and of itself is interesting. It's unique. It's historic on a lot of levels. It's unprecedented. But also, there's just a lot that we don't know at this point.

Because also, there's one aspect to this that for as much goes into this PFL deal, and there's a lot and we're going to get to it. This is still only half of the equation for Francis, right? Like, ultimately, there is still another side to this, at least in his mind, in his goals with the boxing side. And that could end up being the far more lucrative side, regardless of the numbers we've already heard for this side. could be the side that makes him the generational wealth that maybe he will come out of this with. So that ultimately is still an important factor of all of this that we're sort of just putting on to the side right now.

But just in terms of the MMA deal, the sheer deal that he cut with PFL. I mean, they may as well rename the organization the Pay Francis League, right? Like this is, that man won. He won. He absolutely won. Like, this looks a lot like more like a boxing contract than any MMA contract maybe ever in the history of the sport. The amount of concessions that he was able to derive from the PFL and seemingly just, you know, the partnerships that he was able to enact with this,

we've never seen anything like this. Like this whole story in and of itself beforehand was already unprecedented, just the sheer fact of the baddest man in the world, the UFC heavyweight champion, the marquee champion in the UFC leaving in the middle of a title reign to go find his value on the open market. That was already just something we had really not experienced since the golden days of, you know, BJ Penn and all those guys, way back in the day. And I think it's important to note, too, that this isn't something that's, it's clearly like, this is not something that everyone could do, right?

Like, this is not sustainable for the MMA ecosystem as a whole. Curtis Blades is not going to be able to go cut this kind of deal with Bellator, or one championship, or PFL or whatever. PFL only has so many of these types of deals. It can actually give out. But, man, what Francis was able to pull off here, I think, like, we're just going to be watching in, in, I will be watching in rapt curiosity to see what all of this, how all this actually looks like. Because there's a lot to this, but just that, I'll start with, you know, the, the negotiating the opponents pay.

Because that to me is the one aspect of this that sticks out quite a lot. Obviously, the PFL, the PFL Africa thing as well. But like, this man just got shit on so violently by the MMA fan base and even the Fed's, fellow fighters were turning against them and all of this for the past like three or four months, while he was out here negotiating a minimum $2 million salary purse for his opposition and really like trying to get more mainstream opportunities with this PFL Africa thing for his countrymen. Like that is what we do in MMA. MMA is such a special place with the way that, oh, you know, that we didn't get the John Jones

fight that everyone really wanted. And I really wanted that fight. I was really, that it bums me out that we did not get it. The way that the fan base in particular took that personally and then sort of turned on Francis for doing the thing that we have always said that fighters don't have the courage to do, right? Like standing up for themselves, standing up for themselves against the face of the behemoth, the titan, the industry itself, the UFC, and standing up for what they believe in and what they believe is right. Francis did that in a way that no one else has really ever done that. And now, and he was doing it not only for himself, but for, you know, to help out. his fellow fighter to help out his fellow countrymen and win this sport turned against him so hard,

so fast and so thoroughly throughout this whole entire process that, you know, I don't know, it feels good to see him stand up there and just be happy with this. But just this year, again, the negotiating the purses, that to me is the most interesting part of all of this because when you initially hear, okay, he's not going to fight until 2014, that's a bit of a bummer, right? Like, okay, we've already not seen Francis for quite a while. I would like to see him. But now, with that carrot, that $2 million carrot sticking out of, hey, you're going to make at

least two million to fight me, this is suddenly a very, very interesting sweepstakes that we have in front of us. And just even on that fact alone, like right over the next eight, ten, 12 months, we're going to watch with rapt attention as so many heavyweights in this space jockey for the opportunity now to fight Francis and Gano and the PFL. This is a genuine thing now that every team and every coach and every heavyweight in the world and every light heavyweight probably is now talking with their coach of, is this like a possibility? Could we actually get this? If you're a UFC heavyweight, I would throw out Curtis Blaze, but he's probably maybe the worst guy for this because he's already done it twice.

But if you're a UFC heavyweight who's sort of outside of that title picture, or at least the immediate John Jones steep amoeotr's type of orbit, and you're even remotely close to the end of your contract, are you not staring this straight in the face? as hard as humanly possible saying this might be the opportunity to change my life forever. Like this, what, for instance, it's created here is so fascinating to me, and we can get into the other stuff as well. But just the opponent's purse aspect of it, I find tremendous. It's, again, it's something that I've really never even seen before. It's a man putting his money where his mouth is. And, you know, he was talking a lot beforehand about what he wanted to accomplish. That in and of itself is a big thing. But also, two last thing I'll throw out, because I know I'm going along here. This to me feels like it's unequivocal now that

PFL is the number two organization in the entire sport, right? Like if you can say we have the baddest man on the planet, we have the number one fighter in the heavyweight division, and we have been able to put together this kind of structure of a deal for him, that is an incredible thing to then throw out to the rest of the space and say, hey, look, like no one else is doing this. The fact that Bellator didn't even come with an offer is perhaps the most Belator move of all of this. That's the most Bellator thing I've ever heard of.

But to me, PFL is the number two now promotion in the space. And really, like, not since Strikeforce. And perhaps not even since before then, have we seen, like, a legit number two put in this kind of consistent effort to be that promotion, to be that alternative place, right? Because we've seen it with a lot of the signs that they've had the Jake Paul thing, even. Nothing of this magnitude since, like, pride in terms of an alternate promotion for the UFC putting together. a deal like this type of thing and really putting their money where their mouth is. So there's a lot to this, but hell of a day, man. Hell of a hell of a win for Francis and hell of a wins for the PFL.

Stephen, you want to kick the extra point or go for two here? I want to see it work. Let me just start with that. I'm considering where Francis has come from, considering his personal story, what he's gone through to get to this point, literally floating across an ocean on a dinghy, a glorified dinghy, to living in a parking garage in Paris, France, like, and then fighting on a destroyed knee to beat one of the toughest challenges of his life.

I hope this guy, I hope this is the watershed moment for the sport, because why would I not? Like he is a tremendously compelling figure and as Sean said he's done something that's never really been done. He has challenged the status quo in a way that other fighters simply haven't. So I wish, I wish, I wish and I hope that this deal is everything, it delivers in every way that it, It says, it promises to. I am very skeptical as to whether it actually will,

based on the way that the sport works, based on the current landscape, and based on simple economics. So, I mean, I guess I had to start in an optimistic note because I've been here a minute. Like I've seen a lot of players come and go in this space. I've seen a lot of big announcements, a lot of big signings, a lot of big salaries being thrown out, perhaps none to this extent.

But the question is, you know, can PFL take Francis Nengunu the number one heavyweight in the world and make and sustain a business off of him? And that is the biggest, you know, question mark. as we move forward into this thing. And I think it's too early to say. It's extremely encouraging that a company is out there willing to do this kind of thing for Francis. But ultimately, like, I will be, I will feel like it's a success when it creates more success as a result of it. I will feel like it's like it served its purpose if other fighters are able to do things like this.

If other, if we're able to truly challenge the status quo, um, as opposed to outliers here and there. Because this business is, you know, thus far, um, we've seen a lot of outliers. Um, we've seen a lot of people try to challenge this to, to various degrees of success. And ultimately they end up being outliers. I want to see a whole sea change in the way the business has done. I want to see fighters get more money, have more freedom, and live long and fruitful careers before they hang it up. So today's announcement for me, you know, I think it sounds great.

We'll see what happens next. That's my bullet point wrap up to this. Yeah, and just kind of take a little. like a different row than the two of you guys. We use the term fumble the bag a lot of our on our shows, but a lot of it, we use it like in a cliche kind of way. Like Al Jermaine Sterling should have called out

Sean O'Malley after he beat T.C. Dilleshaw. Like he fumbled the bag and had to fight to Henry Sohudo. It's become like just like general term that we use all the time. It's more like, what are you doing with this short term thing that you're trying to do? And that term was used a lot during this free agency period. He parts ways with the UFC.

there's reportedly millions of dollars thrown in him even publicly from Dana White and from Francis and from coaches and stuff like that for a big fight with John Jones but then the rest of his contract wasn't going to stay the same and the rest is just kind of up in the air and then there's the hope for the big payday in boxing which we're going to get to in a moment

that's still up in the air and then we saw Chatri Citjotong and Dave Feldman from one at BKFC respectively say either we offered him this in a floppy trillion dollars or he essentially priced himself out and we're not even going to make him an offer and his value is dropping as each second goes by

and fans and media members, some of them are eating this up and saying, this man made a mistake, he fumbled the bag, he should have taken the eight mill to fight John Jones. If this is what fumbling the bag actually means, then douse my hands in Crisco because I want to fumble the damn bag too,

because this is insane. And somehow, Franzigana took the term fumble the bag and turned it into a positive. Like, fumbling the bag is apparently a great thing now. because of what Francis and Ghana did. Man goes all in on himself, makes it happen. So I want to go back to you, Steven,

because I just said, Francis going all in on himself. You have questions. You're cautiously optimistic, but you are skeptical about this. Is PFL all in on that? Like, is this an all in move for the PFL? Like, if this doesn't work,

if for some reason, like Francis, you know, he's a great ambassador and he fights for fighters' rights, and that's all great. But a lot of fans are going to look at this based on results. Like if he goes in there, his first fight in 2024 and gets the doors blown off him and then fights again and gets the doors blown off him again. And this kind of fails in the results factor.

Like where does PFL go from here? Is this like an all in move for them in your opinion? Like this has to work? This is a strategic move. PFL is acquiring assets to inflate its valuation to make it a more valuable prospect. The people who run PFL or people who have started PFL are venture capitalist guys. And I think venture capitalist guys have a different threshold for risk. And they value different things than I think you and the MMA industry value.

I think that's why they come across. I mean, to me, they are the latest of the whales, basically. They come in, they have deep pockets from venture capital. This is a new series of investors, right? Because this is the new PFL as opposed to the D.FL. WSOF, which had its own investors, a few of whom are extremely upset right now because they feel like they didn't get their investment return. But there's a new set of investors. They've raised all this money over 200 million on the online sources that I see. And they are trying to muscle their

way into this industry, capture a market share. And then depending on how fast they burn cash, or can make themselves an attractive acquisition. My guess is that, you know, this is a long-term play to take market share and then either flip it, get a new set of investors or get out, you know, or go out of business. like that's the two the two things that I see when you when you talk about like are they all in not necessarily but

if they're spending two million dollars on engano's opponent not in Ghana we don't know what in Ghana is making like that's all that's they've got to sell a lot of pay-per-views they've got to do a lot of sponsorships and they've essentially got to they've got to really monetize the hell out of this thing

and so if they've got to don't do all those things, then they burn more cash. They put themselves in a poor financial position. And then it becomes a matter of raising more revenue, you know, raising more funding. So they can continue operations. It's a symbolic thing, though. Like in the fight game, Francis is the number, he's the baddest man in the planet, right? He's, I mean, he's, he won the heavyweight belt. Nobody beat him for and so it's huge for their brand and it's how it allows them to leverage themselves into the into bigger deals hopefully as as you know as as as as as as as as as as as far as how you know being all in and being um you know if if this doesn't work out um i'm not sure what happens from there it's like it depends on whether

they can continue to fund operations and to continue to do business right because is if they run out of cash and go out of business or sell to somebody, well, then, yeah, it was fair to say that this was not a strategically good investment. But I'm hoping that they did this with a plan, you know, I'm hoping that they did this with a plan to monetize, if not now, then somewhere down the road. And I think ultimately this is a big gamble that they're making. And that's the fight business. People make huge gambles based on anticipated design.

and anticipated business, you know, business need. So I'm sorry. I'm sorry if I'm rambling here a little bit, but, you know, I think you're right. I think it's the biggest gamble probably since the affliction saga. I think of affliction. Look at the payrolls on the flexion. That's very much what this feels like. Yeah.

That's very much what this feels like. But I think what the latter part of sort of what you were saying there is, is right on the money in that I would be stunned. if at any point in this, PFL makes actual money off of this deal. Like, this has to be such a sync for them in that regard. But I don't know for them if that matters as much as it would for other people, because it does very much feel as if they have enormously deep pockets, deep pockets to which we do not maybe fully comprehend with a lot of the moves that they consistently make. But also that this is just like a prestige play in the way that Stephen said,

we're essentially like the gamble, the gambit in all of this is that you, two years from now, will know what PFL is, right? That you can pull someone off the street and there's a better chance that they know what the hell those three letters mean than they did on, you know, May 16th, 2023. And if that is ultimately it, because I agree 100% with a lot of what Stephen saying about the valuation and just trying to drive up the value of this product, if that is ultimately where this gets them, that they were able to increase that market share of just the idea of knowing that they exist for like a large percentage of the population in a couple years,

this is an unequivocal win for them, right? If they're willing to take that hit financially for that sort of gain on the other side, that in regards to an all in move, that feels like what this is. It's the same thing with the Jake Paul thing, right? Of just like, we're just going to make sure that you know we exist because for the UFC, that is the number one advantage that the UFC has over every single other player in the space. Every single person knows who the UFC is. And so it's good.

It's good for the fighters like Francis because they come along and they throw around a lot of big money. It's also bad in the sense that it distorts the marketplace and it creates this little bump. And look, if PFL goes out of business, like, where does that leave fight? That's not good for the fighters. That's not good for fighters in terms of they don't have another choice. They don't have the market for talent buyers has gotten smaller. I think the concern that I have is like, and the thing that I told PFL, like somebody that works at the PFL, just stay in business.

Just stay in business. That's all I care about. Like, you know, affliction came on the marketplace, 2007, 8,9, started promoting. They threw a ton of money at fighters. and they went out of business. A ton of money. They went out of business so quick. And the PFL has managed to avoid that fate by getting more investors.

They're extremely good at attracting capital from other people. And I think that's because of the new team. They have access to financial markets that the previous people did not. And that will keep them in business for longer. But they still have to turn a profit at the end of the day. and maybe the goal here is to just get that brand as strong as it is until they turn it over to the next people. Maybe the goal is to somehow surpass the UFC. That's also a possibility too.

But it depends on whether they can, to do that, they're going to need to turn a profit. They're going to need to win that war. and this is a long-term fight because the UFC has a long, a long head start on them, and brand recognition that's more powerful than anything else in the sport. They are the Kleenex of MMA. So again, I know I'm sounding like a Debbie Downey here, but I want to see this succeed because I think like you guys, like we've been covering this sport for a long time and we cover one business basically and a lot of satellite players.

about 10, 15 years ago, this was a lot more, it felt like there was a lot more competition in the marketplace. And that was a more exciting place to be, from my perspective, with more competition, more players, more, you know, negotiation and like lateral movement between promotions. That was a more fun sport to be in as far as I'm concerned. Now that we've got this one 10,000-pound gorilla and a bunch of 200-pound gorilla, is it's not as interesting.

So I really hope that FFL is able to leverage Francis and to really change the sport in many fundamental ways. And we'll see. I will say though, I don't, I wouldn't classify the way you're portraying it as being a Debbie Downer, though.

I think that's just giving appropriate caution and pause to something that we really just haven't seen before, right? because we've said it a couple times already, but this is so, this is different yet familiar, but yet still so different that we can't really wrap our head around it fully until we see the whole picture a couple years down the line. Like this could, this has the potential to be extraordinarily transformative for the space and for Francis and for the PFL, but it also has the potential to be extraordinarily disastrous. And that to me, I guess, goes back to like just how funny it is the way that we have, that all of this has been.

treated over the last five months. Just the rush to judgment from everybody in the space, the fumbling of the bag, all of this conversation. It was so tiresome in the moment and it was so silly in the moment. And it, to me, revealed the knee-jerkness, the impatience, the simple-mindedness of some portion of this fan base. Because if you're sitting here, even today, I'm seeing it on my timeline of criticizing, ah, you know, Francis in the PFL, great, good for him. If you're criticizing this deal, you were going to criticize any deal. Any deal. deal that Francis did, you were going to just say, ah, Francis in one championship,

whatever, like, you were just not going to be happy because he's not fighting John Jones. So, this, like, there was no winning you over to his side. Just the, the way this has been received has been such a, in elucidating, like, a very, it's a good eyeglass into,

I think a large portion of this fan base, but also, you know, I understand, because this is a selfish endeavor. Ultimately, we watch fights, we pay a lot of money for fights. NBA fans don't pay hundreds of hundreds of dollars a year, thousands of dollars a year to watch their product. Like, I get it. You're spending all this money every month, so you feel like you have some say in it. But I don't know, man. I think this is, uh, I don't know. If I was Francis, I would be, I would be telling a lot of

people to shut up right now. Boarding for flight 246 to Toronto is delayed 50 minutes. Ugh, what? Sounds like Ojo time. Play Ojo. Great idea. Feel the fun with all the latest slots in live casino games and with no wagering requirements. What you win is yours to keep. Groovy. Hey, I won! Feel the fun. The thing will begin when passenger Fisher is done celebrating. 19 plus Ontario only. Please play responsibly.

Concerned by your gambling or that if someone close you, call 1-8665331-260 or visit comexonterio.ca. With Amex Platinum, $400 in annual credits for travel and dining means you not only satisfy your travel bug, but your taste buds too. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. And he should. He should be telling people to shut up. And I think, you know, asking the all in question was,

these are questions that need to be asked right now. It's great for both entities right now. They're both making a ton of headlines, and they both seem to be very happy with the deal, and that's great. But it is a very risky deal at the same time. And you talk about the fan, Shaheen, and I want to get Steven's perspective on this as well.

So I'll start with you, Sean. We have people who responded, most people are like, all right, Francis won. Francis won. He got a lot of money, like, good for him. But the negatives I saw, and I want to, want to touch on one that I've seen. I'll touch on the one that I've seen the most at a moment, but the one I want to, the other one I see a lot of, well, he didn't announce a boxing match. So this is nothing that we didn't already know.

We already talked about this is the worst kept secret of all. Like we knew, everybody knew he was going to sign with the PFL and now this deal is happening. We didn't know all the intangibles of it, but still no boxing match. So Steve and I were talking off air about this. Like, what is the itch for Francis and Gano? Like, he wants to box. Like, it just seems like he wants.

wants to box. But every single time we talk about this, it had, all of the big names are thrown around, Tyson Furian, Deonté Wilder, and Anthony Joshua. And it seemed like talks were ongoing between Inganu and Wilder and they kind of fell apart because maybe Wilder's team was going in a different direction. But like, does it have to be one of these guys, Shaheen? Like, can't he just, like, he could just go, like, look at the, look at the influencer boxing scene right now. He could go to an MVP and fight on the undercard of a Jake Paul card or they could promote Francis and Ghanu to fight anybody. Like some YouTube weightlifter guy who looks good getting off the bus and punches a bag hard.

Like does it matter who he fights as long as he gets to box? Does it have to be one of those big names? Like this has been the question I continuously ask here. Like if you want to box, just go box. Go box Chris Barnett and some random boxing match like for Gamebred F's game bread boxing or something. Like you're boxing and you're probably going to make a bunch of money. Does it have to be those, these guys? I pick up what you're putting down my kick.

You're trying to matchmake right now, Francis Ngano versus Wings of Destiny. Was that the 400-pound man? Whatever, whatever, whatever. Whatever. Boogie 2968 or whatever that was. I'm here for that. I'm here for both of those. Let's do both the same night, one after the other. No, I mean, I will say, I think, you know, we're speaking in a lot of glowing terms.

If there is one big criticism that I think is valid, I would say I have two right now of maybe where this is headed and how this is played out. And I think it's fair. and that is when you separate the boxing component to this, right? Because the MMA side of this, at least up front, feels like a very admitted success. Like he seems to have won with this PFL deal. I wish he would reveal the numbers of his own purse because that would be really, you know,

that would complete the cycle here, and that would be very helpful for the rest of the space to understand what type of money is out there. But we can just never seem to clear that hurdle, even in these type of situations. I'll keep wishing on that front. But then the other, it does seem like this process

and that is where I think a lot of the criticism that he has received is maybe valid is that it does feel as if there is not as much interest in the boxing component from the boxing side as maybe we want to expect it. Why is that? Why is that? Why is that as a good question? I'm not

entirely sure. He's certainly not Connor McGregor, right? Like that's just on its face. That's just objectively true. He's not going to bring in the type of audience that Connor brought into a Floyd fight or anything like that. Also, you know, I mean, he's a heavyweight. He's a hard punching heavyweight. Weird things happen if you're, if you're Deonté Wilder and you suddenly lose to Francis and Gunner, that's kind of the end of your career. Like, even if it's a fluke, right? Yep. That's exactly the point I was going to make. And Brian made as

well. Like, like, who's going to agree to fight? I mean, it's a risk. The risk reward. The risk reward of that is, I don't know if it's there for the top boxing heavyways, especially because these guys are already making silly money with every fight. If you're Deonté Wilder, wouldn't you much rather go fight Dubois or someone else who's going to make you, you know, 10, 12 mil regardless that rather than, you know, take that kind of high risk, low reward type of option with Francis. But your question, Mike, the way you frame it is actually really interesting. Does it matter, right? Because if Francis goes out here and he does fight a lower ranked heavyweight or he does just get a couple tune-up fights in or he does end up just doing something circusy, like there's

a lot of options right now in the space. Is that a win? And I would say it probably is a win, right? Because ultimately that's something, A, he wouldn't have been, that's an itch he wouldn't have been able to scratch ever in the UFC. He could have been UFC champion for the next five years, and they would not have done that for him. But also, like, it's an alternate revenue stream, right?

Like, boxers will get paid more than MMA fighters on a larger scale when it comes to these type of bigger names. So no matter who France's fights, whatever the setup for it, he will make a pretty decent check for that. fight regardless of what it is a check that he would not have made for the ufc and that is the thing that people keep coming back to is like it seems as if it got to a point where it's it has to be Tyson fury or bust and in my opinion Tyson fury almost kind of like played francis a little dirty here with how much he let him on that this was going to be a thing that we're going to do and it's going

be no gloves queenberry rules with mike tyson's referee like all this promotion that he did then to just pivot away from it the moment francis leverages his whole career for this type of thing that kind of sucks. But to me, it doesn't feel like it has to be one of those guys for this to be a success again. As long as, for instance, it's able to do what he wants to do here with the freedom that he wants, and he's able to cash a couple of really nice checks for it

and explore something while he's still in his physical prime that he obviously has wanted to explore his entire life. Remember, he started out as a boxer, not as an MMA fighter. It's hard not to call that a win. Like, maybe that's not the A-plus win that a Tyson Fury fight or whatever would have been. that to me still feels like it would be a win, especially if it's just one piece of a larger pie,

which it would be. Stephen doesn't matter who he boxes at this point. And who knows, if he goes out there and just melt some dude and it's like cool and he gets a lot of buzz, like maybe a couple of years from now, Fury will come knocking on the door when he's about to retire.

Because that dude is in and out and in and out, and you never know. It's like Tyson's Fierre could retire tomorrow and just want to do an exhibition bout with Francis down the road. Like, we don't know what things are going to look like a year or two from now. So why not just, scratch the itch and just wait for someone to come a knocking in a couple of years or a year, wherever it may be.

I think because this is something where emotion trumps reason a little bit. I think that Francis has, this is very important to Francis as a competitor and who he is as a fighter. And I think that being told no for so long. along by his promoter, you know, what happens when somebody tells you know, oftentimes you want even more. And not even know, right? Like, sorry to kind of, but not even know, but like, no, and that's the end of the discussion.

Like, there's not even, like, any wiggle room on this and just drop it forever. Like, it's just such an unequivocal, no. That, for someone like Francis, I'd imagine. Yeah. That's just not. And a competitor. Francis is a competitor, an extremely high-level competitor. and I could imagine that really, really burning him.

And I could imagine that's the reason why boxing has become the next play. Why doesn't he go out and box a random person? Because they're not as much of a competitive challenge. Like Francis sees the image of these heavyweight boxing champions or former heavyweight boxing champions. I want to go for that guy. I don't want to fight the scrub. I want to test myself against the best in the world. And look, I'm not going to pretend like I know what's in any of these heavyweight, you know, these top heavyweight's brains or their business manager's brains.

But there must be some reason why we haven't heard about the boxing component of this deal. There must be some reason why Tyson Fury went left instead of right. And I think ultimately it doesn't necessarily play in Ingunu's favor. Like it might actually benefit him to go and build up a name, to build up momentum, to give himself a track record by. fighting no names to essentially build up some promo material for them to sell for the other boxing promoters to sell but instead he's asking to jump straight to the front of the line and i got to i got to imagine that for some reason um my guess would be financial they're maybe not sold on ngano uh taking ingano is the next fight but then again the the dante wilder uh

announcement could be tomorrow and I have no idea what I'm talking about. But it, I mean, don't you think it's telling in a sense that we haven't heard about the boxing, that the boxing is still kind of lingering out there? A little bit, yeah. But I don't know. I mean, it could be anything. It could literally be anything. So the intrigue levels are there.

I just don't know. I just don't know what it all means. Like the Fury idea made sense because he was done. All right, I'm not going to retire. I'm going to make a big bag of money to do like this random six-round. boxing match with Mike Tyson as the referee. Like that made sense. And then all of a sudden,

he's like, nope, I'm back and I'm going to be the heavyweight champion of the world. And I'm going to continue my legacy as a professional boxer. I'm not going to do this exhibition thing. I'm not going to take the Floyd Mayweather route just yet. So that was like a weird pivot. But I get it. It's just all very weird because that's what everyone was waiting for. Like most people thought this announcement was going to be who he was going to box.

Not just the MMA. I thought we were going to get the whole, the whole five-quarter. meal here. We didn't get it and left some people with a little bit of an empty taste in their mouths. Again, not me. I was like, good for you, Francis. Way to fumble the bag into a floppity billion dollars. I appreciate the hell out of that. It was perfectly fight industry, right? Like it was like, well, we've got most of the announcement, right? Do you have, do you have all the details? No. But most of it, most of the deals. Some of the, you know, broad strokes. It's very perfectly fight industry in terms of the way it was laid out and the way it was done.

I will say, too, we've been almost, me in particular, I've been almost framing this as if, like, hey, this is only one half of this deal, right? But in a way, it feels to me like this is maybe only one third of the deal, too, because the way that, it, the way that, for instance, has talked about this throughout the entire process, but in particular, today on Tuesday when we're recording, it feels as if the Africa side of this was deeply, deeply important to him. and like we've heard it the whole way through even dating back to last year of him saying like this is not all about money it feels like for him leaving a legacy to have improved um the the opportunities and you know the mixed martial arts scene in his continent and his homeland feels so deeply personal and important to him that that was the most excited he got today when he was talking to our paleria hawani on the m m m hour was talking about the possibilities of the africa thing and that's another thing that we just don't have answers about that we don't really have a lot of that like that's not a very fleshed out idea right now in the way that it's been presented to us but if that is something that is actually legitimate and that is something that francis is going to be able to sort of chair over this sort of pfl africa division run events in africa give opportunities to his countrymen things like that again like who are we to say that that that's that's not a win who are we to say that he didn't get enough

or that he didn't get the right deal or whatever because that to me that i could see where that man is coming from that that is just something so deeply important to his legacy and who he is and what he leaves behind after he's done with all of this because money is whatever like at a certain point you just have a lot of money but if you're francis and you can say hey i made i left this better for not only my fellow fighters but my countrymen as well i let i left them more opportunities than there was before when i started like who are we to say that's not a win that seems incredible it's a huge win it's a huge win for him and that leads me to like another one on my questions that I had because Francis obviously had a lot to say in the MMA hour. Some of what we

already knew. Others, we got some reactions to Chotry and Dave Feldman and even Dana White saying that he'll never fight in the UFC again. And, you know, he went all in on Chachry. Had some things to say about Feldman. We'll get into that in a minute. But I was wondering what he was going to say about the Dana thing. And Ariel, of course, asked him about it. And he still sort of took the high road when it came to Dana. And I know A.K. and Jed touched on this, on this morning's reaction, but I wanted to add a little caveat to it if I could, and Sheen, I'll go to you first,

because you see some side saying, yeah, we're talking about, Francis wins today. And you see how they're saying, well, the UFC won because they still have John Jones, they still have all these other things. Like, they didn't lose anything. So technically they won.

And Francis is, you know, just a band-aid they wanted to rip off and throw in the garbage anyways. And now he's gone. And one of their competitors just paid a floppy trillion dollars for him. And it's this big risk for them. And the UFC is just making money hand over fist.

But why can't it be both in this situation, Shaheen? Yeah, it hurts the fans a little bit because we're not going to get Francis against John. But this is one of those rare situations where, yeah, the fans lose a little bit. When you're looking at it from a UFC perspective, they already knew France was gone. They didn't lose anything today. And if you're the PFL and Francis, yeah, you won too.

So, like, nobody lost. Francis gets the big win. What do you think the UFC is thinking right now? And you mentioned the Africa thing and how important that is. Do you think there's a part of that stubborn Dana White that's just like, we're going to Africa way sooner than we thought we were going to go because we ain't letting them get there first? I think here's the little secret when people try to frame this conversation

or these types of conversations about UFC won, UFC lost, UFC must be bad, that type of thing. The UFC wins every day. Like the UFC wins on the day that it doesn't win. The UFC wins on the day that the worst possible story comes out. they're still winning, man, because they don't care. And you ask what they think of this? They probably don't care.

They're probably laughing about this in their office of, hey, if you want to pay Francis all this money and give them all this stuff, good for you. Go do it, my guys, because we got a tombstone in our offices of all these people who have had all these great ideas of how to run this better than us. They don't care. Their bottom line is not going to be affected by this.

Dana White's bottom line is not going to be affected by this. They're making money hand over fist. Every time we see these calls for the endeavor, you know, the company revenue type of end of year calls or mid-year calls or whatever. It's always, we just made the most money that we've ever made. Like, they're doing great. They're doing great today. They're doing great yesterday.

They're going to do great tomorrow, regardless of whether this is success for Francis or not. So I think that's maybe an incorrect way to frame this because I don't know that the UFC cares all that much. But it is ultimately still, I would say, characterize it right now a win for mixed martial arts. And that, to me, feels much more important, right? because there's not a lot of days that feel like wins for mixed martial arts. There's a lot of days that feel like wins for the UFC, and that's maybe different. That's a different conversation. But this feels like there's now something bigger at stake, but also at hand for fighters

than maybe they once thought. And that in and of itself is massive in my eyes. I mean, Stephen and I are both people that have been around this industry for a long time. I've seen a lot of people come and go and a lot of terrible ideas fail really spectacularly and a lot of good ideas fail really spectacularly. So the fact that anytime you can introduce something new to the space of, hey, I haven't seen this before and maybe this is going to really succeed, that to me, like, that's ultimately the most important thing.

I'll sign off on that. Two different conversations. Win for the UFC, win for, win for MMA, and they're on two different time scales. You know, yes, this does feel like today this is a win for MMA. And it could be the start of something. I think we all are rooting for it to be something. But yeah, as far as the UFC goes,

they have a business that they've spent 30 years building. Well, you know, at least ZUFA has been building it for, you know, since 2001. And they have, they're probably at the peak of where they are business-wise in terms of the revenue that's guaranteed to them. BFL has to convince a bunch of people to buy, to press buy on that pay-per-view thing. and that's that's there's the rub like that's where so many companies have come and gone thinking they had an asset that would deliver when they when it didn't or a combination of assets that would

deliver when they didn't so um but that being said if the pfl can execute this if engano here's here's another thing like ingano is now taking a role in theory he's taking multiple roles right he's doing he's not only going to be a fighter fighting in the pfl schedule but he's also going to be an ambassador he's also going to be spearheading in theory this this move to africa so he's splitting his focus um along with representing fighters interests in whatever that means like right yeah whatever that means like what is that actually you sitting in on brendan latne's negotiations like what what does that actually entail yeah there's not enough uh broccoli at the craft services table francis you know please so like again francis um

has proven himself to be an exceptional human being and I really hope he is the guy to take this from one win one day to like a series of wins and whether that's true or not we'll see that's the best that's the best answer I can give is somebody who's seen these cycles over and over again and not even just in the sport but the PFL like the PFL

Like the PFL started out as the WSOF in 2012, I want to say. It was supposed to be like eight or ten different divisions. I mean, I'm going to just throw out, because I don't remember the exact numbers, but it started out as this massively ambitious worldwide MMA tournament. And it gradually got whittled down to a more manageable product for the promoters. so you know if if Francis can do this

you know if Francis is able to be the catalyst for something I will be I will think he will go down in the history of the sport not only as one of the best heavy weights ever but like literally a pivotal figure in this sport he will be he will rise to Mount Olympus in my eyes if he's able to pull this off in the way that he and the PFL are promising.

It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get a nice rank on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goaltenders, no, but chicken tenders, yes, because those are groceries, and we deliver those too, along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol and other everyday essentials.

Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal to be legal. drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. A new era of fitness is here.

Introducing the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ. Built for breakthroughs with personalized workout plans, real-time insights, and endless ways to move. Lift with confidence. While Peloton IQ counts reps, corrects form, and tracks your progress. Let yourself run, lift, flow, and go. Explore the new Peloton cross-training tread plus at OnePeloton.ca. As we're recording, John Jones reacted to all of this and said,

quote, calling yourself the baddest man on the planet from across the street. Who does that? L.O.L. And then Francis and Gano responded with, then cross the street. Just well done. And they're just going to dangle this in front of us. That is mighty, mighty rich, because I'm pretty sure John Jones has spent four years calling himself the baddest man on the planet well, like sitting on the sidelines with no

intention to fight whatsoever. So that's, you know, hypocrisy from John Jones. That's crazy. I've never seen that. Wow. Never, never, never, never seen that. Speaking of surprising things, um, France de Ganu called BS on Chachri Sitchotong from one championship. And Francis was asked by Ariel in the MA hour about the meeting he had with Chachry and Chachie throwing out this incredible dollar amount. And Francis just slammed the door and locked the deadbolt behind. it and said that Chhatri put that out there that they were drawing this big multi-million dollar offer the day after they met and that Francis was baffled and that he never asked them for anything and that Chhatri is quote a performer but we kind

of knew that right. Shaheen, we do this thing in Boston. My grandmother used to say this all the time. When we would say something that was so obvious, my grandmother would go like this. She would say, oh yeah, well look at my surprised face. And then she would stand there stone cold. that was my reaction to hearing Francis's reaction to Chhatri. Was it yours as well?

Very much so, because this whole thing was farcical when it happened in real time. And the amount, because like, just to take a step back, right? Like, we all know what one championship is. We all know who Chachry is. It is a running gag in the MMA community and has been for a long time. The overly flowery. language that that promotion in a particular Chhatri will use to describe itself. The billions and billions upon fans that they have.

The billions of eyeballs that watched whatever they were doing. The biggest promotion and the history of the sport. Every one of their press releases starts off with like the biggest promotion in the sport or something like that. Like it's very on the surface, just obvious what a lot of that is. But then all of a sudden this man becomes the most trust. human being in the history of MMA when he says something that

everyone else who's kind of just hating on this already would already agree with and it would back their argument of hey Francis is messing up. Francis screwed this whole thing up. He's asking for too much. Look at Chachry. He said it as well. It's a it was comical then. It's comical

now. I'm glad Francis came out and said something because it was very thinly veiled in the moment when you could tell exactly what was happening that they were just getting ahead of the fact that they didn't end up with the deal and hearing Francis explain how badly they wanted to try to get the deal is is again quite funny in my eyes but i mean this is just par for the course for me i i was stunned when all of a sudden trottery became the most trusted man in mma a couple months of reason when this happened

my whole thing like in the aftermath of this all was like instead of saying like 20 million dollars should have just said like 200 million dollars like be you know as jed like say if you're got to be a bear be a grizzly, just throw out like this astronomical number that you know is just going to get thrown off the table anyways. Steve, what was your reaction to that? And then even, you know, talking about Dave Feldman, because Dave Feldman at that press conference for BKFC 41 said, Francis's value is dropping.

He was asking for too much money. And Francis is like, what the hell is he talking about? Like, me and my team, we never even talked to BKFC. What is he talking about? I mean, I think that's probably David pontificating off of a question that a reporter asked him. I just think that's David extrapolating. And then somebody picking it up in a headline and then that headline crashing into the reality

that was their complete lack of negotiations. This happens in the media all the time. I don't really take it seriously. I didn't take seriously what Chattri said. It screamed ex-girlfriend. Just, you know, not, I don't take it seriously. Promoters say stuff. That's their job.

their job is to put their brand up as high as it can possibly be not only that i mean their job is to leverage to to to jump from lily pad to lily pad things that that will capture your interest and get and align that with their brand that's their job and so he this was just an attention getting ploy that's that's all it was like try to get in front of it you know put yourself in a position of higher status and make yourself look better. I mean, it's very high school. It's very transparent, so I don't think it's really even worth talking about. I think it's just people started talking about it because they didn't have anything else to talk about.

In the void, people will start listening to anyone. And Francis was negotiating behind the scenes, doing what he had to do. and you know he wasn't keeping us updated from week to week because it's a all big one big moving puzzle you know and I'm sure he was working out stuff you know entertaining different offers and you know just in general crossing the T's and dot in the eyes crossing the T's and Dot in the eyes hashtag promoters say stuff may as well be a job description for anyone in any capacity who wants to work in the fight game. Listen, I think the unqualified winner from this podcast today is

Pay, what is your thing? For PFL? Pay Francis League. Pay Francis League. Great. We're doing good work here, Steve. Yeah, but anyways, that's where I stand. I don't really pay attention to it.

I've, you know, I've seen this and it's just, it's just merely a distraction. Hopefully people listening are learning lessons right now about hashtag promoter say stuff. And you don't take everybody's word as 100%. And so we're talking about all these different hats that Francis is wearing. Francis potential boxer, Francis, the UFC Africa chairman, or the PFL Africa chairman, all the different things for fighter advocacy rights. But now we're going to talk about Francis Ngano, the PFLMMA fighter, Shaheen. And look, there aren't a ton of negatives here.

one negative for fans, and I totally get where people are coming from. And I know Ariel talked about this on the tail end of the M.A. hour episode. We're not getting Ingano versus John Jones anytime soon. Probably never going to get it. We have to accept this reality. I know, and you kind of hurt my feelings a little bit when you said, we're never going to get Ingano versus Sergei Pavlovich. That one stung a little bit.

And the PFL's current heavyweight roster, you bet, I mean, this is a huge win for them too, because of someone on that roster fights for Hansonano in 2024, more than likely, they will have already won a million dollars, and then they're going to make a minimum $2 million to fight Francis and Gano. But the level of competition currently on the roster, not great compared to the UFC and even Bellator and even won championship. And we're not going to see Francis fight the best heavyweights in the world as it stands.

And France said on the MA hour that in terms of what could happen, whether it's somebody outside of the UFC or somebody in the current tournament right now, that, everything is possible. But how much Shaheen of a negative is the potential competition factor of this deal right now? Or do you look at it a little more glass-half-full? Is this more intriguing because a lot can change between now and 2024? Both. I think it's both.

I think there is a very clear and obvious pathway to look at how all of this played out and be bummed out at the idea of, well, who's this guy going to really fight? And I think that's a valid, that's a valid perspective on this. Because right now, if Francis was booking a fight for September, not a lot of great options. Like, Anta Delicia, well, come on down, you know, like here's your $3 million to do all of this. Not really selling pay-per-views with that one. I will say, though, the way that this was negotiated and the way that this is framed in the timeline that has been laid out for us, I find it incredibly intriguing. And to me, it is yet another sort of stone you can cast at that bullshit that the UFC tried to do instantly.

And I think fans also sort of grasped on as well that Francis is scared to fight the best, which was always hilarious to hear that the dude who fought, who defended his heavyweight title on a torn ACL, is scared to fight the best, the guy who's going in there against all these monsters consistently over and over again. and was calling for John Jones for like two years. He's scared to fight the best. The fact that Francis has demanded this salary for his opponents, this minimum $2 million. I mentioned it at the top.

He is now on record saying that he wants his opponents to be as financially comfortable as possible when they're fighting him, have the best training partners, the best training camp, not be lacking for anything because he wants them at their absolute best for this. That's an incredible, incredible gesture for, the number one heavyweight in the world to throw out there for whoever that person may be, but also, again, that carrot, I think it, I think it would be unwise and premature to underestimate how dramatic of a carrot that is to now throw into the MMA ecosystem of that, hey, if you can

position yourself well and you can manage it so that your contract is ending soon or that you're just going to be available for this opportunity or if you have built yourself to this opportunity, you now have a chance to get an guaranteed 2 million minimum purse along with sponsorships, along with pay-per-view, along with whatever else will go into that for that opponent. I think there can be some pretty intriguing names by the time we get to 2024, whether it's early 2024, mid-20204, it seemed like he was targeting February, March, but also that's without knowing the boxing side of this. Also, that's not maybe somebody would become available around, you know, mid-2024.

Like, there's a lot of still moving parts to this. I think there is a very real chance that the person Francis fights for his PFL debut is not currently in the PFL and will be lured over by this. Because again, if you're tied to Ivasa or you're to whoever, right, like just throw out a name in the heavyweight space who's not John Jones and Steepa Miochich. Hell, if you're Sergei Pavlovich, why would you not want to just think about this? Like, why would you not call a meeting with your team to immediately talk about? Is this a potential thing that we should shoot for? UFC UFC heavyweights are making what

80 and 80 100 and 100 if you're lucky This is 20 times that Like we talk about these numbers So flippantly That like I think a lot of people Lose the sense of how much bigger A hundred grand is from a million

And how much bigger a million is from a billion And like we just don't have a good sense of like How big these numbers actually are If you're on 100, 100 The opportunity to go fight Francis for 2 mil Is 20 times larger than anything you're making right now. Like, that has to be enticing for a lot of heavyweights and light heavyweights in this space right now. And I'm going to be so fascinated now to watch this next eight, 10, 12 months

of the jockeying, the internal jockeying that maybe it starts going on of people leveraging their position in trying to, again, work themselves into this space where maybe they're that guy. I think it's going to be crazy compelling theater. Stephen, what do you think? We got this PFL people. I have a whole lot of, you know, I agree with what Sean's saying. You know, it's a hell of a carrot. It's a hell of a carrot and it made me the most direct way to increase your chances of getting an opponent that people are really going to care about. You know what I mean? Maybe we get, maybe we get steep, we get maybe steepe, you know, we don't know what his contract

looks like. You lose to John Jones. Fabricio. Maybe he's a free agent. He can go over there. Fabricio said it. Fador? Oh, God. I don't know if I want to see that. I don't know if I want to see that. I don't know if I want to see that. Well, you don't want to see it, but like, you know, the name value alone. Maybe we get the Derek Lewis rematch. Maybe we get Derek Lewis, Francis and Gano too. The fight everybody is clamoring for. I'm just clamoring for that fight. Maybe Jaileton Almeida sneaks into the little contract exit and get to something big over there. I'm just saying the possibilities right now. It does that anything is possible feels real. I mean, I have to, I have to hit a Paca Porter's manager and see what his current status is right now because

sign me up for Ngano versus Paca Porter. right now. A couple last things I wanted to touch. I know we're kind of looking at different promotional perspectives of all this and some of it we talked about and some of it is dumb and shouldn't be talked about it all. But Stephen, like, Scott Coker has been kind of the most real about all of this because he's just like, yeah, we've talked to him. We've made him an offer and we can offer him this and this and he was like the more honest guy about all of this. They didn't ultimately make him an actual official offer, at least from France's perspective, but there we are. But if you are Scott Koker, if you're Chotry, even Dave Feldman, and I'm not going to throw the UFC into this,

but, you know, if you can't if you want, are you seeing how PFL structured this deal for Francis? Are you getting on the phone with, you know, guys on your board in some respect in saying like, you know, maybe we need a new strategy to try to corral some of these big name free agents moving forward. Because the PFL, yeah, they're not going to be able to offer this to everybody, but they are willing to make, changes for some of these bigger names and add these different stipulations to their deals in order to get them over here. So if you're Scott Coker or one of these guys right now, Stephen, are you talking to, you know, some of the higher ups in your company saying, all right, you know what? What we're doing is fine, but maybe we need to have a different strategy in place

for some of these bigger names moving forward after seeing this deal today. Just keep it real here. I don't think Bellator is in that position right now. I don't think their position in the marketplace is that strong right now. Probably going to get a phone call for that. But they tried to do. So when Scott first took over, he had a strategy of doing a lot of tent pole events, tent pole fights, the Ken Shamrock's Kimbo slices of the world. And the idea was to juice the numbers and then build the homegrown stars.

Now, we're way past that period right now. And they've had some nice bumps here and there, but I don't think it's led to a sustainable audience, like an audience that would lead them to get an increase in budget from the higher ups. I think right now they're probably more in a period of diversifying internationally and in a period where they are going to run a tighter ship because perhaps they didn't see the return on investment that the, 400, 500, 600, $600,000

purses they needed to pay to get some of these high profile free agents. They didn't think the juice was worth the squeeze in terms of viewership. So, no, I mean, I don't think that this is going to, I think there's a, there's a, I'm supposed to talk to Scott in a couple minutes,

but like, I think there's a damn good reason why they didn't, why they didn't bid. Because they couldn't monetize, you know? If you're going to spend that much money, you need to be able to ensure some sort of return, especially if you're under a big corporate, you know, you're under a corporate umbrella like Paramount, which is a constantly changing, you know, foothold in terms of acquisitions and buyouts and, you know, shifts in leadership.

If you're going to stay in business, you need to turn a profit or you need to be consistently, you know, meeting your margins. And a purchase like Francis and Gano is way outside of that. Like $2 million. I just don't think that they're what the, with a, with a. with the setup that they have right now, they can turn a profit on that when they need to turn a profit. PFL,

on the other hand, I think is willing to burn cash because they're, they're VC guys and it's not about the, it's not about the profit, it's about the valuation. And I think that's why PFL ultimately won. Gene, a lot of, and I'll ask you

sort of a similar question because a lot of it is time will tell. Like, is this, was this the right deal? Will it pay off? And if it does, maybe this is a game changer for the sport. So do you feel like other promoters after seeing the X's and O's of the steel, at least to what we could actually see on paper,

do you think maybe strategies change in terms of how to acquire some of these big free agent names, not just like prospects that the UFC passed on in the contender series, but former heavyweight champions like a Francine Gano or somebody like that moving forward? I think it's possible, but I also do think it's worth noting that I don't, that this situation is probably not going to happen again, right?

Like, this was such a unique and singular and really like once-in-a-generation type of confluence of events in terms of Francis's willingness to make this type of gamble, but also the UFC's contract structure at the particular moment of time he signed his contract. Because I think since then, and I believe Stephen could correct me if I'm wrong, but according to the reporting of John Nash, who's on top of this, better than anyone, these contracts have since changed even following the Francis things. I don't know that this is something that's now possible for UFC champions to be able to pull off with the ease. And this wasn't easy, obviously, but with the ease that Francis pulled it off.

Like they have now, again, altered their deals to sort of cover their own side on this after, after maybe not looking great initially when this first happened. So it's hard to say that this is something replicable. Like to this, down to the very nuance, Because, again, I just don't know that we're going to get a situation like this, the heavyweight champion of the world, the number one guy in the world, the best man of the planet out in the open market. Like, that is just not something that's going to happen again anytime soon.

But I do think if this ends up, again, this is a long play, as we've said this whole podcast, if this proves to be something successful and worthwhile and, again, just a new wrinkle in the way that sort of the talent management, right, the fighter relations, fighter promoter relations. If this proves to be something new, it will be replicated in some, in some aspect. Like, people will certainly start looking for more creative ways to offer opportunities that are not maybe there within the restrictiveness of the UFC, certainly. Stephen, final thoughts on this move?

Any other takeaways you had from this all that you didn't mention? Message to MMA fans in regards to this deal. Well, I mean, I would urge MMA fans to watch and see how it all plays out. You know, I wouldn't, I mean, if you, you know, if you guys want more parody in the, you know, see a broader diversity of, uh, of stars moving, you know, in different promotions. If you want to see the sport grow as a whole and not just the UFC, watch it. You know, I'm not going to pull a Josh Thompson here and, you know, try to berate anybody for, for what they do or don't watch. But it's like, this is, this is a move that it will depend on the fans, you know. And if they, if they support it, if they, uh, show up and watch, uh, people.

and what Francis does follow his career and his incredible journey, this has a much higher chance of succeeding and becoming a bigger moment for the sport as a whole. Shane? Yeah. No, I mean, I think there's not much to add, right? People always love the idea of somebody going against the grain until that person actually does it. And we've seen that time and time again in the sport. And I think this was probably the cleanest and most perfect example of it is the past five months and how they have played out.

it's all impending. This is all still so much left to figure out, so much left to see how this is going to work out, the other sides of this deal, the other puzzle pieces that are going to fit in this for Francis. But I'm glad that we at least now have something. So that if nothing else, this endlessly stupid conversation can shut up for a half of a second because it has been just exhausting, hearing all of the hot takes about this topic over the last five months. And again, good on Francis, man. That man stuck to his guns. That man put his neck out. He really risked everything with that Cyril gone fight, and he seems to be happy. And if that's the most important thing, who might have said he's wrong? Congratulations to Franzen Gano. He's the Stone Cold Steve Austin of M.A.

right now, the man wins big today. You could be, if you're a fan, you can be a butthead all you want, but he won big. It was a big win for the PFL today. And this news, I think, is going to have, I'm going to be a little more optimistic. I think this will have a ripple effect on the sport moving forward. at least I hope it does for the good. And, you know, I know there's going to be more questions in the aftermath with the boxing with his first fight in the PFL with potential events in Africa for free agency in the future. Like, this is a very interesting time in the sport right now.

So to congratulate everyone involved. Well done. My message to the PFL is simply this. Great job with orchestrating this deal. But now you're going to have a bunch of people watching your cards coming up. When you go back to Atlanta and you have these cards in June, people are going to watch. So my advice to you is for the love of God, make these events appetizing. Make us want to eat.

Make us want to eat and move on with our day. I don't want to sit there and eat for 14 hours. Like I don't want to put on a bunch of weight. Like let me just feel full and then be done with it. If I want to have dessert, you know, we can keep watching. We can watch the main event and have some dessert. But I don't need 18 courses with my meals. Let's just get this done.

let's make these events go by. Take the BKFC model, all right? Just find a happy medium between the 14-hour marathons and a BKFC card, which lasts like 44 minutes. Find a happy medium. You're going to get a whole bunch of new eyeballs. Please make it to the point where half of us aren't spending the time on Twitter being like, oh, my God, I cannot believe the pacing of this card.

Let's make this a little more palatable for the MMA fan to watch. And I think this could ultimately be a very good start to what you were trying to accomplish. share. But please do this. It'll make me happy. It's your biggest problem right now. Nice and tight, Shaheen. Nice and tight. Lean meals, PFL. Lean meals. Mike's a crossfit guy now.

He needs to keep it tight, healthy. Come on. Come on. I got caloric intakes. I got a hit. Don't be giving me 5,000 calories in one plate of food. But I think we have we have knocked this out and from many different directions.

We've had positive things to say. We've addressed some of the things that could go wrong with this. Hopefully don't, but I think we've handled this from a very nice perspective, and you can read more about this on MAAfighting.com sooner rather than later, and I'm sure this will not be the last. We'll be talking about this, so stay tuned to the website, and we will have more on this

Francis Inganu to the PFL situation. Hopefully there's a boxing fight to announce sooner rather than later. Gentlemen, any final thoughts, or are we good to go here? We're good to go. We are good to go. Thank you very much. Stay tuned to at Mnayf Fighting.com.